The Most Interesting NFL Defenses of 2025

00:00:05
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00:00:36
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00:00:44
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00:01:05
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00:01:06
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00:01:19
Speaker 3: We're gonna dive deep. This show is.

00:01:21
Speaker 1: The most interesting defense show, and by that I just mean a defense you want to talk about. It's not necessarily a prediction who's going to be the best, although I did pick some of the better ones, but some are not just ones that we find fascinating. In the year twenty twenty five, partly inspired by a great piece you wrote about on your sub stack that everyone should should sign up for. Check out Ollie Connolly and he's back doing the podcast also with John Ledyard. You wrote about the influence that Rex Ryan has had over this generation of defenses and you said something to me like you got a lot of feedback from this, I think around the league, and it's funny how Rex Ryan has actually maybe become like an underrated figure in recent NFL history.

00:02:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think is purely because of the caricature and how it ended as a head coach. And people will just throw foot jokes at me all the time, and I don't think they've quite seen the I think everyone is well aware of the blit centric stuff in the league, maybe some of the more granular stuff around similar depressions and all these kind of buzzwords people use, and that was all Rex's creation. Even Sabam will go and say every single thing I took at Alabama stems somewhere down the line from Rex Ryan. And if you just go through all the staffs of the best defenses in the league, all of them have someone with an association to Rex. Down to all the mad cap stuff Brian Flores is doing. He gets Mike Petton. You go and see what Vance Joseph does and how he changes the Broncos defense. It's Jim Lennard, a guy who played under Rex, and will give Rex the credit for all the invitive stuff he did at Wisconsin. So just on and on down the line. Even guys like Fanjo as the league kind of moved and evolved into this pressure and disguise that we see defensively, just went it said, well, what's the one thing I can at least take from Rex? Where it's like big picture ideology, all the specifics of game planning and specific structures. They've just rubbed the guy blind and he gets absolutely zero credit for it, because he's kind of confusing and weird and just looks like he's checked out of the game. Were talks on your you know, your new bosses main network over there, I guess, And so it just made in this kind of like laughable figure, Robin the loadable guy. I think you should be right on, you know, up there on the Mount rushmov of defensive guys in the modern age.

00:03:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're we're talking you know, specific defenses. So it's not just about trends in the league. But I think if you when we're talking about them, you'll see that influence and some of the more creative, maybe even Gonzo type defenses. Yeah, it does get you thinking about those those old Jets teams.

00:03:47
Speaker 3: And I should have mentioned the name.

00:03:49
Speaker 1: Of course before of your sub stack and the podcast check out Ali Connelly's read optional like, look, ESPN's coming on board. They said we're going to be investing more in NFL, that we're gonna have more sources more you know the podcast. So you know, I'm trying to get Alli Connelly hired. I've been on that road for a year without exact success. But so the best thing we can do is at least sell them, sell some substacks, and sell some subscriptions. Because that podcast is outstanding. Why don't you get started. You can pick any team you want most interesting defense, and we'll just go back and forth picking teams.

00:04:22
Speaker 2: Most interesting. One I think for me is maybe the Dolphins slightly confusing reasons which I think they have this outstanding defensive coordinator, the potential to have if healthy, and that's a major riff with those guys up from one of the best fronts in the league. And then it's an absolute disaster class on the back end, and I think the GM could undo everything that could be great about this unit.

00:04:45
Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot of the last fifteen years of the Dolphins history. Not just blame it at all on Chris Greer, but more like the coach and the GM not always on the same page. You think back, we're going to get to Flores, but you think back of how his tenure ended. They won eight of their last nine games with Brian Flores as head coach and Steven Ross the ownership, you know, said it right after the season when he fired him. The reason was that he was essentially not getting along with the front office, which included ownership, but also the GM Chris career and maybe some of his coaches.

00:05:21
Speaker 3: He ran through coaches. He was not faultless there, but I think.

00:05:24
Speaker 2: He changed offensive play goals five times in five weeks from memories, so he made some mistakes.

00:05:30
Speaker 1: I will I think you could be better a second time around. That's another topic, but yeah, it's a little bit endemic. And you mentioned a good defensive coordinator kind of what did you see out of year one? We had Anthony Weaver on the show actually in the middle of last season, and yeah, he's a fascinating guy in terms of what he runs. Do you think he'll be able to run what he wants with a back end that yeah, cornerback one, I guess is Storm Duck in. Cornerback two's Jack Jones. I guess Mike Hilton's in the slot. You did bring Minka Fitzpatrick back. It's a weird group, but the front, the defensive line I think people have kind of forgotten with Jalen Phillips and Bradley Chubb coming back from injury is pretty awesome, so that there is potential there. What did you see at a Weaver specifically and how he might use this group?

00:06:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've had just lifted up Mike McDonald's defense from Baltimore, which he helped Bill dropped it in Miami as a lot of these teams are trying to deal right with Denard Wilson and Tennessee and elsewhere around the league some of what's happening with Minta with the Chargers, and it's probably the most successful replication of it we've seen. That's the best defense Mike McDaniel has had, and I think gets lost in the shuffle since he's been there with all the injuries and all the caveats to that stuff. With a horrific mistackle rate last season, and so it's all the exact same Baltimore stuf, which is, let's be as malleable and multiple upfront as possible. Every single kind of body, type of pass rusher and defensive lineman you can have, we can attack you in all kinds of different ways. And on the back end, it's disguising and rotating and just trying to get a vision on the ball. So when you get these unusual and orthodox guys bringing pressure to the quarter back, he's just thrown at the spots field hoping for the best, and you try and generate turn ups that way, and that to me is the real confusing thing with what they did in the off season, which is everything that they're about is vision on the ball. That's like the main thing in the defensive backfield. And you come away with Jack Jones and Mike Hilton, who are just like classic nuisance bump and rum old hand vets.

00:07:20
Speaker 3: All their playmakers.

00:07:21
Speaker 2: Come on, where are the playmakers outside of Minka, which I think is is a good pick up because Ramsey was leaving anyway, probably the best they could do from that. Storm Duck is the one that makes me really cackle. He's like getting a lot of hype and I truly believe his name was like Richard Smith, norm would care. This is an undrafted pH agent from a year ago who got fried when he was on the field and meaningful snaps. He has a fun name. He's a cool guy. But other than that, Cam Smith is still here for reasons that remain unclear, and they.

00:07:46
Speaker 1: Might yeah, second round pick from a couple of years, but just hearing the camp reports, it doesn't sound great for him.

00:07:52
Speaker 2: No. I think one of the only reasons he's there he's really good friends with Chris Grisson, and it's like, well, we drafted him in the second round, we'll keep him around. That was supposed to be kind of like zone based vision on the ball, playmaking corner. It's being a disaster. Even the safeties they brought into Melafon Win Davis. Melafon was a converted corner again, more complaining the slot and play man coverage for you, Davis more of a rundown enforcer. And so you're left relying on Jack Jones not I see it, you know, trigger it zone corner, Jason marshaf Margan not to see it, trigger its zone corner. And so you've built not just that, you've not put the resources into the group, you've brought in people who in no way represent or fit what this really excellent defensive coach is trying to build.

00:08:32
Speaker 1: And yet I hear all that and you're and you're right, And I love hearing that what you're saying about Jack Jones, because you know, I see Jack Jones and I think about.

00:08:39
Speaker 3: Well, what about that? What about that play against the Chargers?

00:08:42
Speaker 1: That was a play that was him making a play like he's had some big time plays, but his strength not fitting with this scheme. I think is so endemic of what's plaguing the Dolphins organization really for the last fifteen years, and it's continued in this Mike McDaniel era. And yet, you know, just for people that are kind of tuning in now and haven't been as locked in. Look, Jalen Phillips, when he's been healthy and he's coming off two major injuries, is an incredible pass rusher.

00:09:07
Speaker 3: Bradley Chubb, I.

00:09:07
Speaker 1: Don't think you can expect him to be at his peak, but if he is your third rusher with Chop Robinson who finished last year like a hair, you know, with his hair on fire, like big time playmaker. They just gave Zach Seeler some well deserved money. And then you draft Kenneth Grant, who's an interesting guy in the middle in the first round. That is a lot of talent. And you have Jordan Brooks at linebacker who's good for them, and in Tyrold Dots and they brought in like there are players here, So I like you picking them as interesting. They were not on my long list, but you're right they are. I don't want to just pick the best defense. Actually I'll just move forward. Then I will pick the Vikings because of the connection here. But just like it would be wrong, I think not to mention them and the Vikings are in this interesting place. Could they have the next Spags in that because Brian Flores's tenure in Miami ended with him essentially fighting with ownership and then more importantly, frankly, I want to believe in a world where NFL owners and gms look past the legis. You know, the lawsuit between Brian Flores in the NFL, and there was like a little more buzz last year that he could get some head coaching interest, but obviously it didn't happen. I'd like to think he's going to get another chance, because you would think he's matured and learn some things, maybe about how to run the entire team in offense. But in the meantime, Ollie, he's now entering year three with like a wild combination of talent that he can coach up and continuity of guys that understand his system. Josh Mattelis, who I know you love, said like they feel like they're entering the graduate level of the program with Brian Flores, and in a way, the Vikings are benefiting from the fact that he can't get a head coaching job anymore, and it just makes them to me, must watch on Sundays all season long this year.

00:10:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're always the most fast because you never know what he's going to do from season to season, week to week. He's an absolute lunatic, and I say that in the most respectful, loving way. He does things that are like one hundred year old orthodoxy. He's like, I don't care about any of that. That stuff is nonsense. He's the only true, like aute artist we have in defensive football right now. I feels from everyone else and this guy just views it completely differently. And Kevin O'Connell, to his great credit, says, Brian doesn't need to interact with anyone else in the building. That's not his strength. He can go down the corridor and do all this crazy stuff and we'll release himTo the hounds on Sunday and let him go have some fun. I think that is probably the best way to approach Florest. I do think he has mature and he's maybe softened ever so slightly, But I don't think just battling with ownership is the issue. At the end night, it's battling with all of ownership every single owner in the league, I think is probably more of the issue we'll have moving forward. But yeah, to what you said, the continuity they have now and what he's able to do. They change the nuances of their system more than anyone else in the NFL week to week in terms of how they get to what they want to get to. That is so impossibly difficult to do, to have all the players execute that, to even stream up some of the stuff he does. And then by the middle point of last year was when he was kind of flipping back and forth between two completely different styles and structures of defense game to game. I don't even know how they pulled it off. So now to have an extra year in that where there will be new layers, new things we've probably never seen before, and they can flip between all three different iterations that defense no matter the week, with all the subtilties within it, I just don't know how you can keep up with that. And now he could just say my new innovation is I have a dominant down four and I'll just let those guys roll. All the other stuff is out, and people still be scared of me because the Brian Florer is effect they'll still be wondering what's going to happen. But I can just let Greenard and Allen and Hargrave and the new guys are all off the ball.

00:12:43
Speaker 3: Yeah you meant you mentioned those new guys.

00:12:45
Speaker 1: And I do love the idea of Brian Flores as the last true auteur as a coach. He's like the Paul Thomas Anderson. He's just he's just in the middle of his like run of like Magnolia and why am I blanking on the name of the Adam Sale in their movie Punch Drunk Love, and like he is in the middle of his absolute prime. There will be blood coming up, and there will be blood.

00:13:09
Speaker 3: So there.

00:13:11
Speaker 1: Just to remind people what this defense looks like. There's kind of who I would define as like the Vikings specials, Like they're really great players, but I think they're better because they're with the Vikings and they have that continuity.

00:13:25
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what I was talking about before.

00:13:26
Speaker 1: I would throw Josh Mattellus in that group, who's you know, a safety defensive back hybrid. Harrison Smith to me is kind of in that group now because he's clearly more effective with Flores than he was with with the last regime, at least his last couple of years there, Like Ivan Pace is a crazy just piece to throw out there. Blake Cashman has been really great for Minnesota. Andrew Van Ginkel is a talented player who is very good in Miami and has been doing great with the Vikings. And Byron Murphy is someone who has said out loud like man that first year was tough to adapt to everything they wanted me to do, and now like looks like a cornerback one. And so there's that that group of guys, and then there's this group of you mentioned Javon Hargrave and Jonathan Allen, two of the better defensive interior guys will see what they have left like hired guns, and this edge group that's just really talented. Van Ginkle's in that group too, but Jonathan Grenard and they have a first round pick and Dallas Turner that you're hoping you can get something. So it's like this mix of the guys that have been there and just pure talent and florist can unleash it all. And I love everything that you said about He doesn't have to be as crazy because now when he does want to get crazy out of nowhere with like a second half game plan in week three, like they won't know what's coming.

00:14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it all has his force multiplying effect. His kind of great asset is understanding every single kind of protection, putting something on the field to set it for the offense. So he knows you have to be in that protection based the look at my defense, and I now have the pressure path or stunt autoist to break the thing down just by design. That's going to get broken down when you have talented one on one players. It's just more effortless to do that. You have to want less investment in the from to be able to do that kind of stuff. And so both the format rush will be amplified when they all bail out, when they mug everyone up and they bail out, and then when they do some heat again, you just have got design one on ones across the board. So I don't see any way there's like a fall down to worth in any sense. I just think they're too smart, too savvy. Now they've just got a way higher floor because the talent base is just way greater than it used to be. Even as I'm in pace is not like a technically good linebacker, and I can't think of anyone more perfect for Bran Flores wants to do, which is a guy who just makes everyone panic. The first step is so electric, everyone is terrified at all times. And so now that you have I think even the rotation down the depth chart, Dallas Turner could barely get on the field last year, completely confused on what to do. Who knows what he could look like. They're saying they're going to move him around a whole bunch more this year and he's gonna be one of the fun pieces for Flora. So they just have an unbelievable level of depth and continuity. And now the guys they've added on only improved the places where they're already strong.

00:15:57
Speaker 1: Honestly, Yeah, and it'll help out JJ mccar I think the schedule too early in the season is relatively favorable. If they can be a defensive first team, they don't have to be as aggressive on offense. It also gives the potential, finally of the Jeff of Kuda oh renaissance.

00:16:14
Speaker 3: I still have on Jeff.

00:16:16
Speaker 2: No no, I am going down. My island is sinking. I still have Peach from property as the waves a lot.

00:16:21
Speaker 1: Of Mina is the only one that I also have heard. I think she maybe is given up. But he is only twenty six years old. And I don't know if you've been tracking this, Ali, but the camp reports have been really solid that like, it's actually not a battle.

00:16:34
Speaker 3: He's just going to be their starter.

00:16:36
Speaker 1: And if anyone's got to turn his career around, maybe it's Brian Flores.

00:16:40
Speaker 2: I have been a beloved believer for a long time. This does happen with him and Nefri Camp he goes into because he's just like picture built from a lab pro cornaback. We'll see when the real bullets stopped flying if he can say healthy too. But I will I will never give up on Couter at this point. And he's one of those plays where when you're about to give up, but then he gets the sign off from Brian Floris, you go, Okay, Brian does way more football than I do. I'm backing.

00:17:03
Speaker 3: Hey, I'm a great example.

00:17:04
Speaker 1: Never give up on your main loves because it could it could take like eight seasons and then Gina Smith finally gets a chance and you get to plant that flag and enjoy it as much as possible. Yeah, I would recommend like it was your Brian floor. I don't know what week it was. You and You and John did a Brian Flores episode in the middle of last season that to me was like was peak read option. I was like, these guys are operating at another level. People should be listening to to this the Brian Flores episode. People check that out, all right, give me another interesting defense.

00:17:33
Speaker 3: For this year.

00:17:34
Speaker 2: I think the Seahawks. My take is I think they're gonna be the best unit in the league by the ends. So many issues to start last season. You got Mike McDonald comes over, the big name off the market. Everyone's trying to replicate what he's doing. Anyway, he gets to Seattle's I'm gonna try all this stuff. None of it works. All the stuff he brought from Baltimore completely failure falls on its face, silly on. He spends six seven weeks the season changing his front every single week, desperately try and find anything that will work. And then as he kind of pulls away elements of his traditional system, they start to take off. They simplify things, they get better, and by the end of the season, I thought they were playing get really higher level. They had a ton of communication issues. Ernest Jones I think was responsible for some of that because he came in late obviously, and so that stuff I think will get cleaned up within the rough season. They've got a ton of continuity, and I think going into the year one, he just realized I got a ton of one on one talent and difference make beers that I maybe didn't have off the edge in Baltimore, and then I can start adding in more of the Mike McDonald's fun stuff. In a way I maybe tried to put too much of it into the fold early on last season. So now we just get our base defense is really talented, and then I can kind of scheme my way through to elevate it slightly.

00:18:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned Ernest Jones, and it was interesting. I think it was Julian Love on Mena's podcast, by the way that he kind of explained not trying to throw anyone.

00:18:53
Speaker 3: He said it very gently.

00:18:56
Speaker 1: But Ernest Jones helped when he arrived because the previous linebackers really I just didn't think understood the concepts. And the Seahawks kind of told you what they thought about that when they traded like a big creagent pick up Tyrel Dodson in the middle of the season, so I think they feel better about the linebacker position then certainly they did a year ago. They have a second year guy in Tyree Knight who will also get some snaps. But you know, what's fascinating to me is how the coverage and the front match up with this team, because there is a lot of talent in both spots, especially the front. It's just so deep and I'm trying not to fall for the thing of just like man, I just like a lot of names. I like, how can you not like a defense with DeMarcus Lawrence and Leonard Williams on the same team. And then you do have some younger players like like boy Mafe and we'll see if a Chennon Nuoso gets healthy in terms of the edge guys. But there's a lot of like really smart football players. And yeah, you hope it's that combination of continuity and talent that arrive in in year two, kind of like you know they did in Baltimore for Mike McDonald, because it took a little while for it to get going there too.

00:20:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a weird one because I understand what you're saying about that the guys couldn't pick up a linebacker, but the system is purposely built to be kind of idiot proof. That's how Mike McDonald does what he does. He approaches defensive football the same way the offensive guys do, where it's I've run the same stuff over and over again, we just package it slightly different, so everything is really easy to teach. And I don't have, you know, like Spagnolo or Evans Joys have fifteen twenty different pressures for every single front and everything that could get thrown at them. McDonald isn't built that way. He's like, these are the three for the week. We'll dress it up eight different ways so it looks different to everyone else, so it's really easy to get across. They just had no communication between linebacker level and the front, even when Ernist, Joe and Scott there. I actually thought that it was kind of an easy out for everyone to write during the season like, well he arrived, they got better, Whereas if you watch them play, he was constantly all over the place, communicating poorly, particularly to the front. He was really good on the ball and impacting the game, particularly in coverage, but actually getting people lined up was a real issue. For them last season, So just being able to be in the right spots, maybe being able to roll up more of the of the old Baltimore system I think will help. But they would they finish fourth in pressure rate anyway, and they weren't running an awful lot of the mcdonald' stuff back the end of the season. So I think they can just go out and play base football and hammer people, honestly, and then if they can sprinkle some some new stuff on, that's maybe where they get to that Mora league level.

00:21:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, the biggest question to me is kind of the secondary, the boomer bus nature of it. I think we know who Devin Witherspoon is. You know, he's a great young player. But you think of Rieke Wollen, and you think of their draft pick Nick Emnwari, who they drafted to kind of be a you know, safety, linebacker hybrid whatever he is going to be. And those two guys have a very high ceiling and they might have a low floor, and then the depth behind them kind of at the other outside corner spot, like right now it's Josh Job in training camp and they're kind of searching a little bit there. That the secondary just feels like a little boomer bust potentially for me, Like, what do you think about that?

00:21:54
Speaker 3: That group in general?

00:21:56
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I do think that the way they play is really just like Sea bull get, which should make it easier for everyone else. And having Witherspoon means you can do some funky coverage stuff that can kind of correct an awful lot of issues for you and em and Warry just feels perfect to me. For the first year. You may not be where we need you to be in terms of all the different stuff we want to do, but as a guy who is just like head down, charge ahead, you know, I think that he can have an impact for him. So there's some concerns there. But if you just go throughout the league, every single depth shot you look at you go out, the cornerback room does not look so strong. I've been trying to find who are the back in the roster, guys you've maybe traded for, you'd you know, who are going to get cut and it's worth giving them a shot. A draft bussman that flamed out. It's really difficult to find. All these teams feel one or two guys.

00:22:37
Speaker 1: Shit, yeah, you're reminding me of a point I was listening to a team specific podcast, I always want to give a shout out to who I'm like getting some of this information from. It's called Blue fifty eight and the host of it does a great job. Is just one guy talking about the Packers, and they were talking about possible concerns of you know, what could be their problem this year, and he was talking about the kind of offensive line depth you know, betually County on. These guys like Belton and Jordan Morgan are their first guys off the bench, but they really don't know if they're good or not in some of the depth in the secondary too. And I'm just thinking that's every team, actually, the Packers to be have like literally, there's not a team that feels good. I was like, you've got high drafted picks with a little bit of experience in as your backups. That's actually a plus because there is no team out there that feels good. And you're absolutely right at the cornerback position. We went along a little bit there. We've only had three teams so far. We're going to take a quick break. It's why I don't think I'm getting that job on first take. They don't want to do like nine minutes on why Brian Flores is the new Rex Ryan. But that's fine, We'll be back right after this back on NFL Daily. And yeah, you mentioned like the Brian Klores Rex Ryan influence. I was thinking, well, maybe, I mean, not to be reductive, but in terms of changing game plans week to week and showing up with some crazy stuff, I mean, he's he's still showing the Bill Belichick legacy. He is the next generation of Bill Belichick on some level. I mean that was Belichick's advantage too, back in the Yachts, the ability to change the game plan that much on a week to week basis in a way the other teams could not.

00:24:11
Speaker 3: So Flores is maybe like the new generation Belichick.

00:24:14
Speaker 2: Too, would that game a second job? Can Bill make the call? Give him into a crack as a head goat somewhere?

00:24:20
Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think that's gonna help. I don't think.

00:24:22
Speaker 1: I don't think Bill can get a job in the NFL anymore. Which is a crazy world we're living in. But time comes for everyone, all right, Who should I go with next? I'm going to choose a team, okay, in the Packers that are interesting to me in a way because they're not that interesting, like every year they are the team for years, like where we looked at and I thought, like, man, this is a top ten talented defense, this is the defense. This is the year it's finally going to happen for them, and then it never happened. They're less than the some of their parts. Everyone just blames Joe Berry. Well, Joe Berry has now been gone for eighteen months, blames Joe Barry, and I wanted to talk about him and see what you thought too, Olie, because they just seem really important and I don't think we've talked about them almost at all on this show, like all off season. The Packers defense, they're just there. And I don't know how many other defenses in the NFL are literally starting four first round picks on the defensive line, but the Packers are. And yet the expectations are a little lower than they should be. To me, you watched everything they did last year. Obviously some disappointing play by like the personnel up front, But what did you think about Jeff Hafley's influence coming from Boston College back you know, into the NFL and coaching up this Packers team and kind of what it means for where they're at, because this is a team that some people think will be in the Super Bowl, and I'm like, is this a defense I can imagine in the Super Bowl?

00:25:50
Speaker 2: That's the tricky thing. I was really down on the Jeff Halfley high to begin with, and he impressed me way more than my expectations were going into it. He was way more innovative and creative than I'd given him credit for coming to the team. It was a lot of the best of of what we're talking about with Minter McDonald and that style of system where it's pressure in disguise and marrying pressure with disguise, and now I think in game arounds from the fact they don't have as many dynamic one on one winners as they should do. Given they invested for first round picks in the defensive line, given that their starting linebacking corps a first round pick and a second round pick, you think it would just be filled with dynamic one on one winners. They to me to scream, as they have to be a takeaway defense that they're not going to be able to pressure quite consistently enough without it being a game plan based pressure to be able to just take over a game in the postseason. So relying on takeaways is like a fun thing in theory. But even last year they're takeaways where they started the season really hot. That was a lot of like individually great place. It wasn't so much like disguising and freaking out quarterbacks by scheme. So it's tricky just bank on was Zavian McKinney is gonna have two of the wildest interceptions you are ever going to see in pro football, just as back to back weeks. It's just difficult to bank on that the only thing they really have that's like, okay, where there's the development come from. I thought Nate Hobbs was a really smart, savvy pickup in FRASI. And then it's Edge Cooper, who I truly believe has a chance talent wise to be the best linebacker in the NFL. Now whether that comes along early enough is a real question. He is way behind where you wanting to be. I know he got an All Pro vote or whatever, but his eyes are all over the place. He just is the quickest player in the league from basically any level, like pound for pound, the most explosive player in the league, and they've messaged all off season. We've got this edge Cooper package, You've got a Quie walk up package. You got to get those guys way more involved in the pass rush. And that's kind of a tell to me that one he still can't do all just the fundamental things. So you got to build a specific package and then two our pastors isn't quite good enough that we have to build a separate thing to get maybe our most impactful behind the line of scrimmage player on the field. More.

00:27:49
Speaker 1: That is fascinating on Cooper, and that linebacker group is like a wild boom or bust group because you're saying you think Edrin Cooper can be the best line in football. Do you think he is a guy that's going to be able to stay on the field every down and like survive on passing downs?

00:28:06
Speaker 3: You think he can become that player.

00:28:08
Speaker 2: I think he'd become that play. The main thing for the passing down is now all these guys thinking coverage go through the best linebackers in the NFL. There's like six good ones. That's basically it. So all to stay on the field. Now, the most effective thing you can do is be an effective blitzer and I think he's going to become, if not this season, the following year, the best blitzing linebacker in the NFL. So that is already a wash that that works for us. We'll figure the rest out in the back end. If we can just get a coverage body on the field or we put an extra defensive backfield, that's what we'll do. Being able to blitz and drop is the name of the game and just fall to the right spot and we'll figure the rest out. That I think is should be EASi and on the cards to him this season. It's more of the subtleties and the wrong game and the communication. No way, that's where he is just like pretty clueless. Still, he is a straight line, you know, if the gap is open, charged through the thing, and he does it at frightening speed. It's more than the mechanics of the position that I mean, it takes all these guys now three years. It's why the linebackers fall so far in the draft because they draw it as draft agay and developed them over three seasons.

00:29:02
Speaker 1: Right, And so for him to show you that and show the Packers that first step and the explosive ability just jumps.

00:29:08
Speaker 3: Off the screen.

00:29:09
Speaker 1: That they could have something really special in three or four, but it might be the toughest position in the entire NFL to adapt quickly. So I mentioned the four first round picks just to name him. Rashan Gary, who's now another year removed from another serious injury, and so maybe he's got a little more juice. They kind of need him to. Kenny Clark is coming off one of his worst seasons. He was actually drafted by the Packers before Brian Gooden Kutz. I believe he has been there a long time. That was twenty sixteen. And then DeVante Wyatt and Lucas van Ness and they could really use you know, Wyatt had improved play I think last year, and they could really use him to keep progressing. And then they could really use to get to something out of Lucas van Ness and to help that pass rush. Kind of this big, strong guy who hasn't really come through for them so far. So that's up front, I guess if you're looking at the upside, and I'm not as worried about the cornerback position as some Packers fan. The safety group of McKinney and Evan Williams is frisky and a lot of fun. I mean, mckinnie's an All Pro and Evan Williams I think was really interesting as a rookie. And so that's maybe where this group could have a little higher ceiling. How did you see how healthily kind of used that group last year.

00:30:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not in any way concerned about the secondary. Honestly, I think they'll be able to piece it together. We just talked about the Vikings, who maybe the best events in football are going to start, Jeff Akuda, who could have been out the league at this point in his career. The thing they lack is just speed off the ball up from It's as simple that they don't have enough explosive dip and rip speed. It's all power rushes, it all takes an extra step that it needs to. It's all f Lucas van ness or design pressure. I don't know why they wouln't involved in the hassomritic thing over then, like an organizational philosophical thing that we don't throw cash it kind of want away for agents that that to me is what they truly need. This secondary stuff is it's all kind of coverage in disguise base and then McKinney solves all our problems. That's kind of how they built the thing on the back end. And I think McKinney is so talented that's not going to go away. So long as they get they can up the quick pressure rate, which is just really really poor last season.

00:31:15
Speaker 1: For all the grief that the Giants' front office and Joe Shane took for hard knocks and letting Saquon Barkley go, they really didn't take enough grief for the Xavier McKinney just let you walk and not.

00:31:25
Speaker 3: Be interested total like that would have been a good guy to heap too. They could really use him. All right, you go, give me another defense that you find interested.

00:31:36
Speaker 2: The Niners is the one for me where they are the prototypical example in the off season of we write down they have problem X, they address problem X with resources, we assume that it's been solved. And I just don't buy that this idea that they can stay in this this base defense they have, which is to me now just three years out of date with the rest of the league. That they did back into the family tree and they say, Bob Salah, please come back. And I think Robert Sala's a good coach, but it just felt like keeping everything within the family Robin trying to iterate and try something different, and they want to still play with a wide four down front, even on rundowns. And they've just been cooked year after year. And so their solution is, understandably, let's get younger and more athletic, and we're going to draft all these guys, but those guys are all going to play heavy snaps in year one. And you just don't solve such a critical issue, which is both structural based and personnel based, by saying we'll throw three rookies on the field, they'll solve it for us. It never works that way. The Rams were able to get away with it slightly last season, but that's just an anomaly. I just don't think you can bank on our run defense, which triggers everything for us defensively, will be fixed by three rookies.

00:32:42
Speaker 1: Right, Michael Williams, you know great Edgesetter that take they take top fifteen, and they're hoping that the young defensive tackles Alfred Colin, CJ.

00:32:50
Speaker 3: West.

00:32:50
Speaker 1: We talked about CJ. West the forties and free agents with Daniel Jeremiah. Everyone subscribed by the way this week that he's had a good camp, but you're right, it's risky. And I want to go back to what you said about Robert Salah and you thinking that maybe that scheme is a little out of date and isn't gonna bring about the old, the good old days for the forty nine ers, Like I think a lot of the fans, why do you think.

00:33:15
Speaker 2: That is playing in a four to five defense right now in the league which other teams are doing. People still take the Robert Salad influence. Not being involved in kind of the blitz heavy or blitz in disguise world where it basically all the other defenses we talked about just feels like you're way too static for the modern game and to do it. If you look at the teams who are doing that, the Texans unbelievable defense, the Eagles unbelievable defense, they're a bit more disguise based. In the Niners. The thing they have is a lynch pin maybe best player in our defense, Nickel Corner, who's offered like a safety hybrid Cooper digit Jalen Petrie. Both of them can truly play week sidelinebacker for you. So the four to five can just blend into a four to three whenever you need it to fixes the run game element for you. You go through the Niners defense, they let Telenoo Hafang go. I like j Brown, but he is not just like a can play linebacker for you. They're really excited about Upton Stout, a player I really really like coming out of the draft, but he's five eight. He's not gonna walk down for you and play linebackers. So to just say you're going to play for an even front in an era where all these offenses are saying we are going to play two back power football, We're going to pull a move everyone all the time. We're it's not going to put the extra back on the field, so we're going to overwhelm you up from and you're saying we'll put four big guys down there and try and match up with that. That's a reason why no one else is doing that. Vic's not doing that, none of these other teams are doing that. It works for them in the passwish element. Structurally, I think it's a real issue for them in the wrong game because of the marriage of the safety to the front. And I just don't believe Robert Sal's the kind of guy who's going to have like a personality transplant overnight and change the system. I could be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong on that, and that he can change the front on early downs and then switch it to the traditional one for the passwhish. I just don't buy it because they've kept it so in house now for so long.

00:34:55
Speaker 1: Right it is, it's a crazy just changing of the guard. If the forty nine ers of all teams like not that they're not mentally and physically tough, but ultimately if they can't hold up like up front, because to me, when I think of them at their best, that that that is what they're so great at. Is this just like team of absolute beasts that will, you know, just destroy you upfront. But the league is changing, I won't throw out the Texans. Then I was thinking about the Texans because just watching them on a week the week basis like they are they are the most interesting, but it's mostly just like their players are awesome.

00:35:33
Speaker 3: All right, let's talk a little Texans. Their players are just so awesome.

00:35:36
Speaker 1: And then the combination of the like talent and just the full field aggression that they play with is just a treat to watch.

00:35:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean only the Eagles like that. It's just so strange to watch a pro game and see like a different level of speed of physicality. Like I always think back to the Eagles versus the pack is in the playoffs, and it's like they look so much quicker, more athletic. This is the pros that shouldn't happen, and you see that way. I think the Texans all time that secondary is outrageous. I don't know how they've been able to get away with that. That could be like the best position group of any in the league that's not quarterback to Kayleb Bullock is going to become a super duper star. I think this season Petree is probably the most impactful nickel corner in the league for a team who's running that same system as the Niners. He's the most impactful player. And that's on the defense that has Derek Stingley, that has Kamari Luster, that now has Chauncey Gardner Johnson, that's got the two edge rushes who are probably the two most famous names that they haven't are both really impactful too. So it's just whya to why. It's like just talent everyone.

00:36:35
Speaker 1: And they have the thing which this is where I'm basic, and I don't know if this translates as much on film. Maybe it doesn't. I do think with defenses, you can see there is a real quality of which defense is just playing faster and harder. It was one of the reasons why I wasn't totally shocked by the run of the Bengals a few years ago, because even early in that season they weren't a perfect defense, but they just played with such an aggression and speed that even though they were average, like that makes up for like below average talent, and the Texans are enviable. They have the best of both worlds where I think they have that in spades, and they have like the best players too that if we were ranking the teams, I think ultimately I would have to go with Texans.

00:37:21
Speaker 3: It's just like my favorite to be number one.

00:37:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the two deep is maybe a little rough and it's a It's another team that kind of rattles through players outside the secondary. The TD doesn't look quite as strong as it did do last year, but just like the front line starts as it would be impossible to come up with a group that has a better fall down as they do in a better secondary group.

00:37:42
Speaker 1: Okay, one group I would say is close at least up front is the Steelers, So I'll throw out them as my next one. The Texans were We'll throw them into so because to me, this is a big season for Tomlin, because it's like, okay, like let's go you. You you do have everything I think that you really would want. You have that this older group of great players like Cam Hayward and Jalen Ramsey, and I'd even throw TJ.

00:38:05
Speaker 3: Watt at this point.

00:38:06
Speaker 1: He's obviously getting paid a lot of money, but you know he has less great years ahead of him than he has behind him. Darius Slay is there, and then you do have a nice younger group like you you want Nick Herbrigg and Joey Porter Junior.

00:38:19
Speaker 3: To step up.

00:38:20
Speaker 1: Keanu Benton's a fun player. They're talking up Peyton Wilson, this second year linebacker a lot, and so you have like this nice mix. High Smith is right in the middle of his peak to me, got everything you want. If Mike Tomlin is, is that dude right now? Like they kind of they need to be great, I think because of their offense, and they do have the potential to be great, like I'm not totally buying that it's going to happen, but they kind of have to be great and the and the potential is absolutely there.

00:38:46
Speaker 3: So I am fascinated to watch this defense this year.

00:38:49
Speaker 2: I mean, they should be dominant. You put that front four on the field, and as you mentioned, you can roll in Nick Herbig, who may be the most on the rate to play in all football. It's just like get off the ball, bounce, dip and rib sub rusher, probably as good as it gets in the league. You mentioned high Smith too, Benton. So the front four is unbelievable. And that's before you get to Harmon who they take in the first round, and we'll see if he can give some in out versatility. The thing I've always putted heads with them about is that it's just not creative enough with the personnel you have. It really is, we roll out the same guys doing the same stuff and will out talent you and they keep getting away with it because they have an unbelievable amount of talent. It just feels like they're leaving stuff on the table. They were just a little bit more chaotic, a little bit more interesting in stuff like moving TJ. Watter around. We watch how many of these defenses where Miles Garrett is lining up doing the basketball crossover over the center, that these teams go and hunt matchups and the steels like no. TJ does his thing over and over again, lines up in the same spot, hits the same move, and if it hits, it hits. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I just wish they were more forceful in trying different, more creative things. And when you get a guy like Jayalen Ramsey who is like, we can put him anywhere on the field at any time. He's in LA, he's playing dime lineback, you can play in and Nicola can play at safety. They have every opportunity to be as creative as they want in the front and the secondary, and I just know in my bones they will roll out the same system over and over again.

00:40:11
Speaker 1: Jalen Ramsey is one of those guys that I buy camp Pipe. I do buy that they're gonna get the last like great year from Jalen Ramsey because he is just an all time great but also gonna be as excited and ready to make it count.

00:40:25
Speaker 3: He is just one of those players.

00:40:27
Speaker 1: It is what it is that like we've seen some players like this in NFL history that are in the Hall of Fame, that their first year in a new spot every time is awesome. And I know he's getting older, but I think they'll know how to use him. When you say you butted heads with the Steelers, is that like in your own head or you actually getting grief from them?

00:40:44
Speaker 2: Like getting grief. I've written about Tera lost in a couple of times, and one of them was complimentary, and he was more upset with the complimentary one than he was the one where I tried to go in at him. They've done stuff, which is all the stuff I wrote about in that rexpiece she mentioned of kind of the trends of defensive football. They've tried to keep up with some parts of that, which I think is good and admirable, mostly in like when you call stuff essentially, but the under the hood things, the changing the design and the defense is just the exact same as it's been now for ten to eleven, twelve seasons. And I'm more pleading with them. And that's where Tara Lustin got upset. It's like, I think you can be even better. You're excellent, but there's more hit and they just refuse to do it.

00:41:26
Speaker 3: Now, do they ever get personal with you? Like, who do you think you are?

00:41:30
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, oh yeah, I love that.

00:41:35
Speaker 1: But you know why they're responding because they know you know ball and it does hit, and they obviously know an incredible amount about football and have the reasons for doing what they're doing. But I think it's because you're hitting a nerve that they have to think about these things and that's why they're respunny. All Right, we were getting towards the end, So let's do a team from you that you just need to have in this show.

00:41:58
Speaker 2: Interesting is the Bengals okay, because their entire approach to the off season it was lose full. It was Louke but not gonna do anything. We'll draft Shamas to you it. Then we'll we'll mess around with bring him into camp. We're not gonna give Trey Hendrickson an extension. Everything that went wrong last year was Lunarumo and I'll go them we'll fix it. And I don't buy that premise in the slightest.

00:42:19
Speaker 1: I I I guess I'm hoping for like the old lu an Arumo not fixed, but like I was talking about that, just not trying harder, but something new, like they're doing things in a different way. There is some new blood. They're saying Jamar Stewart's having a great camp. But is that because the tackles for the Bengals protect We don't know. We will see they do have. It is a young defense. But yeah, I'm hoping just for the sake of like the entertainment of the NFL. I like the Bengals being good and I want the Wesleyan brothers to be happy that that is the way it happens. But maybe that's not convincing enough. It certainly isn't for you that you don't think the talent's there.

00:42:58
Speaker 2: No, I don't think the talent said. It's just frustrating when you are so clearly in a championship window and it's just like, can we get something to support Borrow in the passing game? Well, it's not going to be the wrong game. Well it's not gonna be the offensive line. Can you at least get some kind of complimentary defense. Either we have a loaded secondary that takes the ball away so we can go into Arrowhead and beat them in a postseason game, or our secondary is cut, but we at least have a front and it's just there's nothing there, and to not even try and make some aggressive moves that I just find so frustrating. And I'm a big al Golden fan. I think he's a fantastic coach. But even as like Great Defenses has been, I have so many players I go package by package throughout the game, and that's kind of my special source. You can't do that in the Pros. It's stuff to just roll package by package because you don't take Trey Hendrickson off the field in the Pros. He's just better than everyone else on your team. So even the thing that makes him a really great coach is just difficult to replicate at this level and even more difficult to replicate with that roster when it's just pretty clear who should be on the field and who shouldn't.

00:43:55
Speaker 1: Be, and they're really counting on their rookies, like they need some mar Stewart to hit, And he was the guy that you looked at that thought that you thought immediately like, oh that's gonna work day one. Demetrius Knight is a second round linebacker that they really need to hit. I know you have your your doubts on him, all right, we're gonna We're gonna jam in at least one more team.

00:44:12
Speaker 3: It should it be the Ravens or the Cardinals? Who do you want to talk about more?

00:44:16
Speaker 2: The Cardinals like my most fun beloved team in the league. I think why is but the fascinating element of them? And I wrote a long piece people who read about Jonathan Gannon is this weird headspace he now exists in between the Jonathan Gannon I think he is like at hop and the Jonathan Gannon he had to be last season to get through a season in which he had zero talent on his defense outside of Buddha Baca, and he's rolling out a CFL roster and him and the staff again together for we've being like, how on earth do we couple all the way through this? And they run the wackiest defense, including Brian Flores, in the league probably that we've seen in like a good six seven, eight years in terms of just the different stuff that're throwing at every week, really really creative. And then they put all the investment in the front of this offseason and the greatiff stuff was really successful for them. Last year. It was different. People couldn't keep up with it. They confused some of the best quarterbacks in the game over and over again without having talent. And my thought the season is, well, is it better to persist with that stuff with more talent. You're confusing people, you're wrecking shop by design, and you have better players executing. Or does he revert back to seeing because they ran in Philadelphia the most passive Monday defense in football and it was we have eight dominant pass rushes and we'll just roll for him and no one can keep up, and we'll break the sack record. Is he just going to having put all that investment in the roll back to the blandest, most boring Jonathan Gannon defense ever? Or is he had this kind of like ayahuasca trip and now he's kind of into the cool creative events Joseph Brian Flores Bold Well, it's got.

00:45:45
Speaker 3: To be a mix of both.

00:45:46
Speaker 1: But I think the talent's not good enough to just rely on it, and you're leaning a little more heavily on that on the creativity, and I think it's a great way to think about great coaching and great defenses. It's is not being able to be creative and just do the most with least like one time it's all right, how can you adapt the next season your plan to your new players? How can you do it season after season after season. It's a young staff too, so I think of them in their third season, and I think what they've done has been impressive overall. Nick Ralis their defensive coordinator who named his son, you know, after Kaiser White, and Kaiser White doesn't have a job right now, I mean.

00:46:28
Speaker 3: What's happened? First of all? Can we get Kaiser White a job? What's happening, Holly?

00:46:32
Speaker 2: We should get can he not be? Like? Can you not be on the coaching staff?

00:46:36
Speaker 1: Nick Glo's always been one of my sneaky favorite players. I'm not exactly sure why. I just like the way he played. I'm confused why he doesn't have a job. But yeah, it's that, it's that maturation. I think it's it's such a fascinating team, I think on both sides of the ball, but especially defense, of like where they go in the year three. All right, let's wrap with the Ravens then, because like Zach Orr in his first year with the Ravens takes over as defensive coordinator and there was this narrative Dean Pce shows up and you know, I think the bigger thing was Kyle Hamilton, you know, kind of changes where he's at it on the defense and helps to prevent some of the mistakes that were happening. And it was interesting this offseason I noticed Chuck Smith, another one of their assistants, almost unprompted, was kind of like, stop giving Dean Priest so much credit more or less said it without saying it to be fair, like these are coaches that are smart about it. He was like, Zach's the dude, Zach is you know the reason why it turned around? Like he kind of was saying, everyone's giving Dean piece of credit. Now you get that, you gotta be careful Dean. I went and checked. Dean P's is not employed by the Ravens officially anymore. He is like a consultant. He might like help a little, but he's not. He's not part of their coaching staff. But his son is Matt Peace, which is just very NFL. But Zach Orr's back there, Chuck Bogano's back there, and more importantly, I do think it's the best defensive.

00:47:56
Speaker 3: Back room around Kyle Hamilton.

00:47:58
Speaker 1: I kind of think of Hamilton as the f It's the best room around him since he's been in the NFL, and we're just waiting, Like what Ravens fans, I know they're thinking, why is this gonna You're gonna be any different than any other? To me, the reason would would maybe be year two of Zach Orr. Tell me if you think this can happen, and the defensive backs kind of having that year two lead maybe like Mike McDonald did as the coordinator for the Ravens too.

00:48:24
Speaker 2: The defensive bag field I'm a little bit more worried about than you. I think I'm not quite sure all the pieces fit together cohesively. It's really fun to think of always we're very versatile. Kyle Hamilton could play anyway and Malic I star his complaining It's like, well it's third down, what's gonna line up? Who has stood wet? It's like really fun to off the flexpiece until you just gotta play for a game to beat the Bills in Buffalo, So okay, who stood wet? And they feel more versatile than they do, like we just have great plays in each spot. To me, I'm sold on jyr Alexander getting through the entire season and being anywhere near the player of old and.

00:48:57
Speaker 1: Now I'm buying the Jalen Ramsey thing for him too. But that it's a their point. There's a reason why he only got a four million dollar contract.

00:49:04
Speaker 3: It's a huge, huge risk. That's fair to point out.

00:49:07
Speaker 2: They're big turnaround last season. I don't want to bore people on this show with the talk of communication systems on defense. Trust me, I understand how boring that is. But that is what happened last season is they move Kyle Hamilton, bag completely remade the communication system. They couldn't line up last season. That was like the main issue Zach All was running someone else's defense incorrectly. They move Kyle Hamilton back, they stripped it to the bare bones. They switch how they communicate, they put it into three phases rather than two phases. All of a sudden, they press of the defense is really good. So that to me is just done and you can you can roll forward with the end of the season being a true representation of what it will be going forward, and they can I think just out talent people. I think that's so explosive in the front. What they can do with moving Hamilton stocks around is exciting. Even if I've got some some like man coverage reservations on third down, probably more so than the most other people. So I don't see any reason why it wouldn't again be one of the top ten defense in the NFL. I just wonder quite where the ceiling isn't exactly who is going to be on the field, where in the key spots.

00:50:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, Madam Weeke, who was was good last year, but maybe not as good as he was the year before. Travis Jones, like how they play upfront is obviously massive for this team. A Dafeoa who's in a free agent year. Kyle van Noy is still there, one of the most underpaid players in football. And you know, when you think about that Bill's game, I'm glad you point out like they will just have to stop them. They did give up what was it, I think three touchdowns in their first four drives. One was a short ish field, but the defense was the bigger reason they lost that game. And yeah, I think them improving this year is the best hope they have. I think they're going to be my Super Bowl pick. So I was hoping you would support me in that, and it didn't really feel like it.

00:50:48
Speaker 2: I think they can be very good. The most interesting part of them to me is Roquon. Roquon was pretty terrible for almost all of last season, honestly, and you've got a maiden name on being just like fining it down. Yet No, he was like fla out for most of the season. The communication issues were his issues. They had to take a lot of the calls off him because they couldn't get lined up properly. So if they fixed some of that towards the back off season, he can get back to even eight percent of the play he was at the true peak of his powers, then that would be pretty transformational for him.

00:51:16
Speaker 1: And I you know, I'm open about it, and Okay, that makes me feel good in a way that to me, I'll view positively that like there is a ceiling for Rokan Smith to be the best version of himself, which makes this defense way better. And yeah, I like to root. I like to pick something that I'm gonna want to be rooting for too. So last year it was the Bills to win the Super Bowl, which I felt like I had a pretty good shot, didn't didn't quite get there in the end. But this year it's like I don't need I don't need another Eagles, Chiefs.

00:51:43
Speaker 3: Eagles are fun to watch, but I.

00:51:44
Speaker 2: Don't even I think I've picked the Ravens. Four yers in a row. I want to get so really.

00:51:51
Speaker 1: I've ever picked the Ravens. So that's why I feel like this is going to be my year. It's going to be your year too. I'llie Connolly putting out some of the best content in the game again. Go ahead and subscribe to the substack and listen to the podcast the read optional.

00:52:05
Speaker 3: Thank you Allie, appreciate you.

00:52:07
Speaker 2: Thanks Bob.

00:52:08
Speaker 1: All Right, we will be back. It's a little different this week. Forties and free agents will be dropping in your feed. We're gonna be talking some AFC West, me and Daniel Jeremiah. That's on Friday, and then we got a little extra episode. We're gonna go talk to some of the players, talk NFC South and talk with the Saints and yeah, like when we're working for an entirely new company, Football's back.