TLF Tackles "Who Killed WCW?" Episode 3

Welcome back to TLF Tackles Who Killed WCW, our companion pod here at the
lapsed Fan to Vices Who Killed WCW. Series Episode three is in the books
and Vince Russo, as you might imagine based on the chronology thus far firmly
in focus so much about his really disastrous tenure in the end of nineteen ninety
nine through two thousand, but a lot of other in the spirit of the
series so far pieces of blame to go around. And it was so Russo's
WCW was so antithetical to what WCW's fan base came to want, expect and
appreciate about what WCW and its predecessor companies offered visa VWWF that I thought it
might make a ton of sense to welcome in our guest here for episode three.
Just quickly. JP will not be able to join us on this episode.
He regrets to that, but we'll be back soon on the series.
But that gives us a chance to sort of stretch out and turn it over
to mister Chris Zellner, excited to have him here. Chris is co host
of the Between the Sheets podcast, where they do similar dives that we do
into the wrestling newsletters of your with David dixon'span highest recommendation there. And even
more importantly, Chris has been watching WCW slash George Championship slash Crockett mid Atlantic
for forty years. So we have here in Chris a fan who really can
appreciate what WCW meant at the time it started to hit the skids, what
it did men historically, what that fan base wanted from WCW, and how
it was slowly and gradually through death of a thousand cuts, almost taken from
them. Chris is also doing a new podcast project called The Center Stage Chronicles
with Rob Naylor and others, where he goes through chronologically the history of WCW,
starting in January nineteen eighty nine through to the beginning of the Nitro era.
So perfect set up. Chris. First of all, great to have
you on the show. Thanks for agreeing to do this. Oh absolutely,
Jack, I love being on. Will you so man? Where to start?
I guess we should start with you, as we've started with our other
guests on this little mini series here on the Vice Documentaries. I'm gonna just
hit you with it. See where your head goes who killed WCW go a
so between the Sheets has a Patreon Patreon dot com slash between the Sheets,
and we covered extensively the latter era of WCW two thousand and two thousand and
one through I mean basically the Russo late Russo era into Fusient possibly bind the
company into the end, and we one of the things we do in these
Patreon shows is as we're doing the shows, sometimes we just come to these
discoveries. And one of the discoveries that we came across was how deep the
relationship was between Brad Siegel and Stu Schneider they went back together and Turner they
had a relationship before they worked at Turner and Stu Schneider in two thousand and
one was now working for Word Wrestling Federation. And basically my theory coming out
of doing those shows were if Brad Siegel could not find the right seller,
that he was just going to sell to Stu and WF and it was just
a fatal complete Basically, the Bischoff Fusian deal fell apart in ways, and
by that point in time it was just like we got to get rid of
this. So it's you know, Vince is gonna be the one to buy
it and find the right buyer. Chris right, you said seller, you
can find the right buyer for w ye ye yeah, yea yeah yah yeah,
find the right buy Yeah. So, in my opinion, who killed
w c W? The Turner, the Turner Brass and and it was a
long death, like you said, death one thousand cuts, But it started
at the beginning. It's the day they bought it. They didn't want it.
They they wanted nothing to do with it. It was the bastard child
of Turner Broadcasting and all these different people that were running it just you know,
it just seemed like they were a shamee. And Brass has even said
it on the Who Killed w CW Show that that was the least favorite thing
he did when he was, you know, in charge of the things.
He was in charge of a turner. So did the wrestlers have some do
it? Absolutely? Did the creative have something to do with it? Absolutely,
But it all starts to me with the Turner Brass. Yes, the
people in charge, they're the ones that killed w c. Jamie Kellner is
the guy that gets blamed a lot because he's the guy that was had a
programming that canceled it, but I think he gets way too much of the
blame with the blame should be going higher up than him. Yeah, I've
been kind of wrestling with my own short list of answers to this question as
we go through the series, and I'm kind of landing on Brad Siegel.
Not that he killed WCW with it with a mission to do it, but
he was sort of like he was the one that could take it or leave
it and had a position of power to influence that outcome more than anybody else
in this wide menageree of players. He seemed to be the one when he
got Powered ninety nine. And we've talked about this already on the series,
where he made these decisions to lean in too, bringing back Bischoff, reconstituting
Russo, keeping Russo at a time when So was on episode three, he
made very clear he wanted out. I mean, we know Russo's history.
He just has these blow ups and he just leaves, and usually it comes
shortly after you know, something he presented creatively was pushed back on or didn't
work or didn't produce the intended results, and then suddenly there's like this thing
where he disappears or has has a blow up we find out about years later.
And even in that circumstance, you know, where it seemed like Siegel
was sort of insisting on Bischoff being involved at a time when Bischoff was clearly
just the emissary of Hulkogan. In the summer of two thousand, Russo's talked
about this, you know, Bischoff kind of redlining his nitro ideas with no
constructive like counterweights like Nope, don't like it, Nope, don't like it.
And of course, to Russo, who was brought into Head Creative and
is the rock set in part three here of the series to indeed write the
story unfettered, this just wasn't what he signed up for. So he disappears
in the midst of that, and did disappear. He goes home in the
midst of that tension before Basche of the Beach two thousand, but Siegel says,
no, I want you to stay. And there's a reason Russo always
says that when he's talking about Brad Seal, because he's leaning in to Russo's
idea of what WCW needs to be, or you could say he's leaning in
to Russo being the only guy that he can think of that can keep writing
this show while he figures out how to engineer an exit. And I think
that probably is why it rests at Seagull's doorstep more than anything. Not because
he he did the most damage, but because he was the one in a
position to try to build it back up and instead kind of just like went
with the prevailing wind towards towards destruction. I mean, I'm sure he would
have liked to have turned it around theoretically, but I'm not sure he did
a single thing or really try to do it other than bring back, you
know, resurface old ideas. You put your finger on something there, Chris,
I want to get right to it. Obviously, you're you're product at
Georgia and you've been watching Georgia Wrestling forever. So take me back to when
Turner purchased Crockett. I mean, I was very I was very young.
I certainly wasn't you know, a fan from that part of the country that
was sort of like steeped in that tradition of that of that company, though
of course it was national on cable when when Turner bought it in eighty eight,
from Jim Crockett did. Was there even a sense then that this is
not something they wanted? I mean, that must have been very confusing because
there's this rich tradition they're inheriting, yet they're doing it under protest or something.
I don't you know, how did that go down? It's Ted Turner.
It's always credited wrestling with being one of the three cornerstones of TBS,
of TBS's growth, with the Alana Breys and Andy Griffin. I mean,
those are the three things that made TBS what it was in the late seventies
going to the early eighties. And he just had he had like this feeling
of gratitude towards wrestling in that way, and he always wanted it on his
network. So in eighty eight, Jim Crocketts have a major financial problems and
basically it's you know, what's going to happen with the future of wrestling on
my network? If Jim Crockett goes out of business, then what And there
was a time there where there were feelers out there in eighty eight to other
promotions about possibly getting on Turner and getting programming on there in case Crockett just
you know, falls completely apart. The key to the whole thing was Jim
Barnett. You know, Jim Barnett gets exiled from WF in eighty seven,
eighty eight, he comes back into the folded Turner and he's the one that
facilitates the purchase of Jim crock Promotions by Turner. He's the middleman and all
this, and Jim Barnett again, one of the biggest power players in the
history of wrestling, and doesn't get enough credit for that, and also,
I mean, and doesn't get talked about enough as far as behind the scenes
moves that he may. So he's the guy that had ted Turner's ear so
much so that I think, if I'm not mistaken griss he gets exiled from
ww F eighty seven because he's got his foot still in both punts. He
can't not be talking to Crockett and it can't not be part of the Turner
gossip. Even though he's supposed to be working to put them out of business,
he's still he's still placating or is them somehow trying to keep that that
that channel of communication open. He's Jim Barnett. That's what he That's what
he did, right, I mean, Jim Barnett was a very political guy
as far as you know, connections and everything, and so they need programming
and they buy the promotion and it's really not noticeable at first that there's really
any differences until January eighty nine when Dusty Rhodes is gone. When Dusty Rhods
is gone and he's no longer the focal point of the promotion. Then now
you know things are changing. And it's eighty nine exactly. Yes, So
as things are changing, you know, you're starting to see more in your
faces. Yeah, you still have Rick Flair, you still have some of
the core guys, but it's just a newer, younger product starting up and
everything. So now the identity is there. But the problem is that you're
thinking here and I'm nine years old when all this happens nine and a half,
you're thinking, Okay, now maybe we'll see more cross branding. But
in the Turner universe, I remember this so well that did they have WrestleMania
five the same day as Clash the Champions in New Orleans Head to head?
What is CNN talking about five? So they're paying more attention to the WWF
then the actual property that they own. I mean, that's pretty nuts to
think about that you own this thing, but you don't want to promote it
like you can. And then you know, you have the Atlanta Braids broadcast,
the Skip carry who I loved one of the announcers, and he would
openly mock wrestling on the air and stuff like that. I mean, you
got this. I mean, why not have a directive going out to your
talent that you can't do this. We need to protect you know, this
brand that we own. And it was like that for years. And I
said this the other day when we we just did between the Sheets episode in
ninety four, the week after Whole Cogan's debut. It took Called Cogan to
come in for them to actually act like they were proud to have wrestling on
their network. Hogan started getting spots on CNN and all this other stuff and
getting all this press, and as Eagel, you know, kind of exploited
that mentality on who could WCW when he was talking about when Nitro was riding
high in eighty three weeks, you know, he was talking about how great
wrestling was and how when he went to a wrestling shows he couldn't believe that.
I see all these families there. I used to see wrestling. It
was all pickup trucks and you know, rednecks and stuff like that. Now
families are here. It's like, when wrestling is is riding high, then
okay, well, we have no problem having wrestling in our umbrella here because
it's doing business. It's you know, popular. But God forbid that you
have like a little downward you know, spiral here, and it's like,
you know, okay, we're ashamed to have wrestling again. Yeah. Yeah.
When wrestling is riding high and keeping you number one in cable or high
the ranking cable, you'll focus on the guy in the audience who looks like
he has money, And when it's the opposite, you'll focus on the person
who looks poor and characterize the audience dusty. But they're always both pretty much
there. I mean, of course, when you know the Monday Night Wars
were red hot, you brought a whole new contingency of people that were just
interested in just the general entertainment of the late nineties watching Monday night wrestling.
But WCW under Turner, I feel like always had its pick of how it
wanted to see its audience, you know, there was enough diversity in the
audience to basically characterize in any way they wanted to. But so long as
it kept them in those top fifteen charts that those Cable executives used to cover
it, those Nielsen ratings charts, they were pretty happy. And of course
that was you mentioned Ted's affinity for wrestling. I mean, that's what it
comes from. I mean, just as much as he was appreciative that wrestling
helped them build the network, It's not like if wrestling wasn't the top rated
show on the nascent days of cable that he would have had that affinity for
it. That's where it came from. It wasn't I mean, I'm sure
he liked wrestling more than the average TV executive, but it also just happened
to be something that absolutely bolstered the audience that he could sell and represent being
able to reach because wrestling was the most popular thing on a station before getting
the braves and stuff. And here you are as a fan watching this all
take shape, and it's fascinating that you were detecting little changes in the presentation
after Turner took the reins. Was there something like essential about what NWAWCW Crockett
Wrestling that he bought represented that was counter WWF. Where I'm trying to get
to was like, by the time Russo comes around, those fans have got
to be to the degree that they were still around, and they probably would
have been. I mean, if you were nine, right, you must
have been like your late teens early twenties in the Attitude era, right,
or at least oh yeah, I graduate high school in ninety seven. There
you go. So, I mean, Jesus Christ Russo's WCW must have been
like such a departure from what you would have hoped Turner preserved about WCW as
it would come to be known when he bought it in eighty eight. Yeah.
The thing is is that WCW was compared to WF was more the wrestling
promotion. You know, it was Southern wrastling. Is there a Bischoff would
would say, I mean, sure, Jim Hurd tried to put his own
WWS spin on it, and especially in ninety one, when I mean we
made this stavement all the time on between the She's that when he hired Dusty
as the booker in ninety one, he was wanting Dusty to bring his you
know, his style of WF in there. That's why we get all these
crazy characters in ninety one didn't wants to reach kids, so you got your
OSes and your Black Bloods and p and Us and all these characters that has
come in and starts up in ninety one. And that's because Jim Hurt wants
to create his own version of the WF, you know, and Dusty's more
receptive that than Olie Anderson was. So it failed and Jim Hurd was gone
at the end at the end of the year. But so it's just it's
a WF was always so polished, you know. Their television is so polished,
and you have these larger and in live characters, while w CW,
you know, for the most of the run was about the wrestling until whull
Cochain showed up. That's when everything changed. But it's mainly about the wrestlers
and you know, doing that type of thing. Bischoff really when he got
hired, that's when the ball started rolling the other direction, because that's when
Bischoff took the tapings for the syndicated shows and moved them to Disney and in
GM in Jim Studios Universal in Orlando at times moving them out of there.
That's also the era when Bischoff decided that he wanted to hire models to be
fans at center stage, so we won't have this meeting. And I'll say
this and this is absolutely true. One is having me black people in the
in the crowd. I mean, that's obvious what that was because center stage
in Atlanta is in you know, a part of town where that was going
to be, you know, more of a prevalent fan base in southwest Atlanta,
and he's making the changes there. You're seeing the change just began in
ninety three and then ninety four, you know, Hogan coming in and that's
when that's when WCW really started changing for the worst as far as what the
true essence of WB was. But it was I mean, Nitro changed the
game when they did that and made WCLB cool and it was different. It
was live every week and all that stuff, so it got WW in a
different area, but still it wasn't to the n WO and all that stuff
and blah blah blah. And you know that's when it blew up and it
reached the audience it had never reached before. But you still through the Nitro
boom though that essence is still there. I think it's still there when WW
closed. I mean, you know, there were a lot of studies.
Meltered did a great one in The Observer. It's like, where did two
million wrestling fans go? Exactly? I was about to get into that.
Yeah, I mean I worked with two guys who were loyal ww fans.
When WCW died, they quit watching wrestling. Wow. They it's something that
they just it's because they hated WF as much as they love WCW, and
that's their promotion is not there anymore, and they just didn't want to watch
it. I mean, these guys were watching, I mean they watched WCB
Saturday night religiously and talk about that and they and one guy like his favorite
wrestler was Norman Smiley, And I mean they were into these guys that were
not being spotlight and it pushed on the main shows, but they were so
dedicated to watching to watching the wrestling that in WW in particular, and like
you said, in particular, it's not because they hated WWF that they liked
WCW. It was just that was their heritage, right, I mean,
is that an accuracy? It was TBS. It's TBS. Yes they watched
yeah exactly. So it was just that that heritage of being on TBS for
all for all those years. You know when when when when Ted started carrying
the wrestling in seventy one, So you know, like that The reason I'm
circling this is because you know, that's still that streak. It's not talked
about. It's hard to get to. I I'm not like saying it should
be in the documentary, but that's like the heartbeat of WCW. It's not
anywhere representative of the majority of the audience come the nitro boom, but it's
what's there before, what's there during, and what's there after and what has
to be I think catered to when things hit the skids as we saw in
episode two in ninety eight into ninety nine, and they just and I don't
know, maybe it was dead on the vine. Maybe Sullivan and Dylan's regime
was oriented to try to capture those fans. And that was honestly, that
was even worse than Russo's stuff. When they had the book in January to
March of two thousand, God help us, I mean, just miserable stuff
and the ratings were just horrific, thus leading to Russo returning despite petering out
just three months later in April two thousand. But what I'm getting to,
I guess my thesis, Chris, and I want to know if you agree
with it, is is that Russo taking the book at WW, which of
course is the focus of this episode part three here on Vice. I think
that really permanently severed that relationship that that that fan that always preferred WCW had
with WCW. It's just like it was a definite shift it definite shift tone.
Yeah. Yeah. And as you're watching the Russo stuff play out as
a fan, as he gets the book at WW, how do you how
do you remember it? And I'm sure it's hard to separate that from how
it was just characterized as you just watched the episode. But you know,
what's your chief memories? You're sort of high and low lights along the way.
As as he tried to turn around WCW, I'll tell you this,
I was excited. Oh yeah, me too, because the Kevin Nash era
of booking w CW was so bad. He gets a big pass on that.
By the way, Indvice, they never even talk about him having the
book really exactly. It was so bad that Russo and we knew where Russo
and ferrar are coming from. We knew that they were the WF writing team.
And the people that knew knew knew that Vince was McMahon was the you
know, overseer, he was the editor. So now we're seeing Russell Ferarcam
in w c W and then, you know, being an online fan,
they're online ww fans at the time, it's like, Okay, now let's
see what this guy really has because he'll have free reign and the three month
run before he's gone. Was it completely different than anything w S done for
Absolutely? Was there a lot of insanity? Absolutely, you know, I
mean it was just some of the wildest, craziest angles. You know,
you have the pinata, you know, the tequila bottle. I mean,
they basically killed the relationship with New Japan, you know, with liger uh,
you know, feast for these guys that that that are so good at
finding archive though these vice guys like oh my god, I forgot about the
marinera sauce on Veto and Johnny the Bull, Oh god, there's so much.
I mean, when we do when we do between the sheets Russo era
shows. It's like, there's so many clips you could play because it's just
so entertaining and good bad in different ways. But it's just that's the thing.
It was entertaining. Yeah, you can tell some crazy shit's happening,
even if you don't even know any of my wrestling. You can pick moments
from those nitros and thunders and present them just as they did rather masterfully,
I think in this episode, just be like, oh my god, this
is this was zany stuff. But it was so in your face. That's
that's another thing too. It was so in your face and it was so
inside in an era where that that was not a thing. I mean,
E c W did their thing. But when you have the Harris Twins uh
working as Creative Control and uh you know Buf Bagwell cutting up promos about the
guys in the back right in this crap, you know, and then Creative
Control coming out and said, we represent the guys in back writing this crap.
I mean, this is stuff you just never saw on wrestling television like
this, So in your face inside, and Russo is not an on air
character other than his voice in that era, you know, that's the inspector
gadget villain. Yeah, exactly, so you never see him, you hear
him. And I enjoyed it for what it was, I mean because we
got to put ourselves where we were at. Nineteen ninety nine is kind I
mean, nineteen niney ninety one of the worst year's history in American wrestling.
I mean just terrible, terrible year of wrestling, ecw WFWCW as far as
like in the ring wrestling is one of the worst years ever. But look
at WF it was just doing insane ratings. I mean, we're in that
era where it's that style, and the fans were conditioned that this is what
wrestling is becoming a lot of ways, especially fans of my generation because I'm
twenty, know this is the stuff we're into. So Russo's gone, then
the radicals and all that stuff happens, and that that that night, that
day that you know, that whole spell there, that's when I was really
knowing that WCW will not be long for this world. Really, why was
that the thing to you? Because the way everything went down with you know,
Kevin Sullivan and Mike Graham and those guys, and losing those guys that
I mean, they were like a backbone of the company, Ben wah,
Malenko, Gotto and Saturn. I mean, that's for your best guys.
You just put the title on Ben Waugh to try to placate him, to
keep him there in the company, and then he just walks out, you
know, and shows up on Raw. Them showing up on Raw like they
did, and then being put in the main of it storyline immediately on on
Raw, you know, kind of revitalized WF because w S biggest problem and
that air was they had no death, They had no mid card death,
you know, and now you just added these four guys in, you know,
and it's like wow, you know he just got to Jericho too,
from them Jericho, you know, months earlier, Yeah, months earlier.
So you added these guys in and it's a major hit for w CW and
a major plus for WF when you hadn't had that it was usual the other
way around. Yeah. They talked a lot about Bill Busch on the episode,
and you know, he was obviously the turner sort of accountant CFO type
who who took power after Harvey Schiller resigned and then Brad Siegel. You had
to find a way to get someone to sort of deputized to n w W
Billbi he was a patsy. It was a patsy for sure. He brought
in Russeou that was his master stroke, and it's talked about in the episode.
But what happens is after that first three months and Russo come January two
thousand and they don't get into this in the episode proposes that you know,
Tank Gabbott whin the w W Championship and he's gone because what's happening is and
Dylan talks about it in his book. A lot is Dylan and Sullivan and
his allies, I believe, including Mike Graham. Yeah, including Mike Graham,
Gary Juster. They're agitating. Russo makes reference of it, and at
in episode three, they're agitating for this guy's know what he's doing, This
guy's fucking everything up, and they have Bill Bush's ear. Does this this
contingent, you know, clearly evidenced by the fact that as soon as Russo
was sent home they slide right into power. But I'm sure what Bill Bush,
not being a wrestling person, didn't appreciate is that, Yeah, you
know, you know Crispin was wife. Yeah, this is going to be
a problem if you put Kevin Sullivan back in control. I'm sure Kevin Sullivan
didn't volunteer that in lobbying to get the book back from from Bill Bush.
But uh, but that's what happened. I mean, it was anyone that
knew the history, right, Chris could see it, like Crispin was not
going to let Kevin Sullivan book him, doesn't matter what strap he puts on.
Yeah, exactly. So it wasn't about we love Russo, although they
did, they liked him better than the It was about we can't we can't
have Sullivan controlling our careers exactly exactly. Sullivan is going to use this opportunity
to bury us because they were, they were linked together as a unit,
guilty by association. Yeah, so when that happens, and then the Sullivan
era begins, and it was terrible, terrible. I didn't want to debate
that one. So oh oh god, hor horrible. And then I mean,
when Russell and Bischoff do their thing, it's like, okay, yeah,
maybe something now will happen. Yeah, did you feel that? Yeah,
get into that, because I mean, now you got Bischoff in the
Mexican and Bischoff was extremely successful you know, in his term, he just
had a bad ending. And now we knew that Russo was at his best
when he had an overseer with man. So, Okay, Bischef's could be
the guy that's gonna be the man to him. Now, so, okay,
we're gonna get the best of Russo. Come to find out that you
know, to suggest well, to suggest such a thing that Russo would be
to get him to fly completely off the handle. He could not countenance the
idea that Bischoff was his Vince McMahon, he was not happy. Were they
fucked up? Was? I mean the they talked about on the episode three,
the Millionaire's Club and new Blood angle, But where they fucked up was
they made the new Blood heels? Yeah? I mean in that angle,
the Millionaire's Club should be the heels. Absolutely. It just looks to me,
Chris, that Hulk just didn't want to be a heel. What Oh
wait, Hulk I created control and Bishop and Bishop and Hulk were in league
with each other the whole time, and they say it very clearly on this
episode. You know, as soon as Russo gets the book, Hulk is
not interested in working there unless Eric is there to protect his interests and basically
be we're talking about a Patsy. I mean, you know, yeah,
Beischoff knows all the ins and outs of that contract that Hogan had. He
signed the damn thing two times over. He knows exactly, you know,
the stir that straws the drink as far as how that contract basically it starts
there and everything else cascades from there, and all of a sudden you have
a Bischoff who, Yeah, while on paper he's a consultant for WCW and
helping Russo or whatever, overseeing Russell, if you have a Bischoff to characterize
it, what he really is is is Hulk Hogan's personal agent at the booking
table. That's what he is. Absolutely his his main focus is Hulk Cogan
won don't anything else. So you totally have botched this angle. And when
you're supposed to getting the new guys over a stars, you know that's the
thing. I mean, they gotta be babyfaces. So and then Russo's all
over television where he what his first era he wasn't, he was just a
voice. So he's all over television. He's a character. The David Arquette
thing, which is touched on episode three was a complete embarrassment. I know,
vincment Man had won the championship on WF, you know, the year
earlier, but it's vistment Man. You know you kind of kind of look
past that in the way. You know it was terrible, but it's Vince
McMain. Well. That was my thing. When Russo in this episode goes
into how you know, how long did he have the title? A week?
Of course, I had no chance of working because the backlash was so
strong that he didn't want it anymore. I thought that was interesting framing because
when Russo put the WWF title on Vince before leaving, and that was still
stuff that that he was engineering. Unless I'm mistaken, ye, I'm ptty
sure because it was early October and he left in mid late October. I
think he started, oh man, I'm gonna mess this up. I think
that the ball was rolling on that before Russo left, but it was it
was executed after RUSSEO. Is that what it was? Okay? Yeah?
I definitely smacked of Russo because you know, there was all those title changes
in ninety nine for WWF. It was September. I'm sorry, it was
September Okay, so that makes sense. So Russo did have his impromoter on
Vince winning the title, and what does Vince do. He turns around and
gives it up the next edition of Raw. It's exactly what Arquette did.
So to me, I was sort of specious of this notion that like that
was that was impromptu and not the plan that there was some like this longer
form plan for our Quette to have the belt. It's neither here nor there,
but it just it just struck me as a parallel when you mentioned Vince
winning the title. The thing about Russo is is Russo was not good doing
anything long term. Everything was for the now. We got, we got
ratings, ratings, ratings, ratings, ratings, ratings. Everything's now,
now, now, now now. It's not nothing for a long term vision.
That's not what Vince Russo did. Vince Russo was not a fan of
of in ring wrestling. You know, that's why all the matches were short.
I mean it's all about, like you said, I do a TV
show. That's his whole mentality is I write a television show. What what
does en ring wrestling do? It takes away from riding. Oh yeah,
because that's that's time away from me riding angles and skits. Yes, and
that's what Vince Russo's mentality was. So in that era, it just gets
worse and worse and worse. And you know, you've already had Brett Hart
getting you know, retired, Bill Goldberg, he's out hurt because of the
limousine deal. You then lost the radicals. It's just it's a total mess.
And Goldberg comes back and what do you do? You turn him heel
and he I mean, it's just just insanity. Yeah, and all the
stuff, you know, all the wild stuff. There's so much wild stuff
you can't even talk about. They're not even gonna if I'm following the timeline,
because it's very clear that episode four is going to be about the final
nightro and the intrigue with Brad Siegel and Stuck Snyder that you talked about,
and the machinations around selling the company. They're not even going to get into
the Goldberg heel turn, which was on the back of signing a massive contractual
extension that got him in a great position. We find out about all this,
of course, because payroll records and other data about how wrestlers were paid
in WCW came out in the racial discrimination lawsuit and discovery to that end that
came out years and years later. But we have all the records. It's
not like we're, you know, making suppositions here. We know pretty much
who is making what. And in all these big deals, these fat deals
are coming up in ninety nine and two thousand, or you're Hogan resigns an
extended amended deal before coming back under the Russo Bischoff regime with a ton of
sweeteners in there. It's just like they're expanding their they're expanding their sort of
liabilities at a time when the revenue is just tanking, tanking, tanking.
I would assume on faulty assumptions about what the budget would have looked like for
that year or what they would be able to afford, and then you look
at those year over years ninety eight, September, ninety nine, September for
instance. I mean, it's just to September two thousand. It's like you
just can't those revenue percentage decreases, those pay per view by percentage decreases year
over year. I mean, I don't care how you play accounting games or
anything. There's there's absolutely no way that that's considered anything but a failing enterprise
that needs to be extinguished for accounting reason, let alone for a we hate
wrestling reason as quickly as possible. So all that is to say that,
you know, they tried a lot of things. You mentioned the Arqette title
change. They spent a lot of time on that, and they talked about
how there was this moment where our ket I guess is in the locker room.
I didn't really heard this before. I wonder if you had, where
you know, he's saying one of how many times have you wonted book and
books as I never have, and then he name drops Booker, t does
Arquette on that nitro when he gives away the championship. They kind of they
kind of present it as if like he name dropped Booker without that being the
plan, but that that's what gets the ball rolling and the gears turning in
the head of Russo's team to put the belt on Booker. What did you
think about that whole explanation about Arquette, you know, sort of like propping
up Booker's prospects in a weird way. I've heard it before. I think
I've heard Booker say that, and I think I've heard Arquette say that before.
Yeah, so, yeah, I mean Booker was a guy who was
ready to make that jump up. The thing about Bashi to be is an
interesting story because there's multiple stories in that regard that the story that Booker tells
they told on episode three about not knowing the tendons for the match, that's
supposed the very false Dave Penzer. Yeah, who was you know, in
talent relations at the time. You know, it's always told the story that
he told book you know, you know he's winning about and make sure you
brought it, bring a suit the nitra, you know, because you're gonna
be you know, do your promo there. So it was something that was
in the cards for you know, a week I think, I think when
they did Dark Side Dark So the ring on Bash of the Beach, Russo
went into detail about the meetings they had talking about that. So now the
time on that and you know what's weird about that one is that, Okay,
it's very clear that Russo has this meeting where everyone agrees Booker t probably
the Monday before Bash at the Beach, maybe the Tuesday, and you watch
that thunder no one talks about this that thunder on Wednesday before Batch of the
Beach two thousand, All of a sudden, Booker T is in the main
spotlight angle, even though they have not announced that he has anything to do
with the title match. But Hogan isn't showing. Hogan's not going to show
he's a classic. He's not going to show up till three thirty in the
afternoon into the pay per view and then look to change things. I mean,
that's just the game you play. But all of a sudden, Booker's
like going over Jeff Jarrett in the main event angle. He's like closing the
show with Jarrett being like sort of looking at Booker as this like sudden,
absolutely out of nowhere looming threat. Let's not forget Russo's original idea in two
thousand for Booker was g I bro Okay, let's not pretend from the beginning
that Russo saw world champion and Booker upon getting the book. But all of
a sudden, Booker T is just being shoehorned into this picture. It's very
clear what's happening is while Bischoff is out, he's dealing with the death of
his father. He's talked about this a lot, which happened coincident with this.
His eyes off the ball, He's just like delegating to Johnny Ace,
who became pretty much Bischoff's emissary in two thousand. We didn't want to deal
with stuff to run Nitro at the time that Russo went away went home on
that blow up we mentioned moments ago, and then Russo suddenly kind of re
emerges the week before bachel of the Beach's writing the television. They're doing the
Angle and the night Trove before Batcher at the Beach two thousand, where Jarrett's
in the ring and the Fat Lady sings, and they do all this too,
and it's just like they're almost mocking the idea that Hulk Cogan's going for
the title on Sunday. They're not promoting it, they're not pointing to it.
So that clearly gears word in motion. And what Russo says is I
needed to get away to connect, you know, Hogan leaving and help with
the belt to making sense. The Booker wrestles with Jarrett, and now it
was Booker or Jarrett totally in on how he would get there, and and
the sort of the the technique he would use to get there. I don't
know, but yeah, I'm not sure it's it's accurate to say that Booker
didn't show up at the building. No, there was something afoot. So
I forget before Booker wins the belt that Basch of the Beach two thousand,
he fucking loses to Canyon earlier in the show. So that's always a mind
fuck to me. Like that that kind of supports the thesis that you know
that Booker wouldn't perhaps have known, because wouldn't that have been a strange finish
on if you thought later on you're gonna be winning the world title. But
I think the key thing there, Chris, is not to get too bogged
down in Bash of the Beach, because it's been talked about in the separate
episode, like you said, and they didn't want to make You can make
the whole episode about Bash of the Beach, of course, as they have
done. I think the key nuance is did Hogan get on that plane knowing
that by the time Russo was done cutting his scathing promo, which Russo swears
Hogan knew he was going to cut. Now the words he chose or was
the subject of that lawsuit. But did Hogan get on that plane knowing that
by the end of the night Booker t would be hoisting the belt. Russeau
is indicated, yes, that Hogan knew that Bischoff did not know that,
And I always found that deeply intriguing, that the notion that perhaps Hogan and
Russeau agreed to something that wasn't shared with Bischoff, and that might account for
why Bischoff is kind of really really ornery about this issue so many years later.
But it's a key part here. It's a key part of this story,
and it's touched on again in episode three. And I think it kinda
because they sit with Booker. They didn't sit with Booker for episode for the
dark Side episode that was mostly built around an interview with you have Jarrett,
who's not in the WCW series and his perspective on things. But yeah,
I think I think Booker is is he's got to be a key story in
the you know, the end of WCW because he hoists his belt in the
end and all that, But I think it's a much more messy and circuitous
path then it might be presented to how he ended up with that trap yeah,
and I will never forget watching that show live. And again, that's
one of those moments that it's like, what the hell is going on here?
I mean this, Yeah, I mean Vince Russo promo. You know,
I'm watching it at a you know, with a group of friends,
and I'm the one that's internet savvy. It's still two thousand and not everybody's
online, and I'm trying to explain everything that Russo is talking about to these
guys. You know. That's the thing. You know, It's like it
was again so inside, so inside, you know, and the world,
the wrestling world wasn't ready for them that they were. It wasn't ready for
that, for that type of wrestling promotion. You didn't have social media to
like immediately get smart on what the heppens? Oh god, yeah. Yeah.
You had news groups, message boards, but you have to find you
had to somehow have your handheld at some point and be introduced to those.
You couldn't just open, you know, the same app everybody else uses and
just type in Russell, you know, like, I mean, could you
imagine Facebook and Twitter and those are things went to you know, if a
Russo deal like that happened today, No, I mean it just being insanity,
but I mean, but that that there, that moment there, you
know, there were people that were I mean were celebrating and happy that this
that this happened. Because hul Cogan was always seen by the heart w c
A hardcore loyalists as you know, the guy who changed our wrestling you know.
Yeah. Were they successful with the NW absolutely, but that gave us,
that gave us the reason to boo him even more, you know,
because I mean I was in Macon, Georgia at the Nitro the night that
Hogan wrestled Sting in ninety five before Halloween Havoc. When Hogan was in all
black, he was so despised. I mean, people hated his guts because,
you know, him doing that gimmick and wrestling Sting. I mean,
that's the perfect reason for us to boot this man out of the building.
And I was at Nitro on the New Year's Nights right after that, him
and Flair in Atlanta, the first, you know Omni show that they had
run since nineteen ninety three. They were so bad off they can't run the
Omni their home building for two years. So the first Omni show back Flair,
Hogan the main event. What's thee omy, Dude, they're cheering Flair
like crazy. He's God and Boo and Hogan. So if now Hogan's gone
from w CW for good, it's, you know, hallelujah. You know,
maybe there's a chance after all that WCW can do something without this guy
around. And those of us said, no, No, he knew he
had creative control and knew that he was called all of his own shots.
I mean, and that's another underrated suspect of the death of w c W,
as Hulk was creative control. Yeah, you know. So, yeah,
that's a chicken or the egg. Like, if you didn't give that
to him, he doesn't come in and transform the business, you know.
So it's almost like, I don't want to. I don't want to.
I've been saying this throughout the course of the series. I have a curious
in your thoughts. I'm hesitant to point to Bischoff or Hogan because they made
it massive. Nash, I feel like, is a little more negligible.
I feel like Nash was sort of like he was a big star. Don't
get me wrong, but I feel like, standing alone, it's hard to
point to very much that he did that did outweighted business him. You know
what Kevin Nash's biggest problem was. Yeah, he was a punk for Hogan
and Bischoff. I mean the finger poker Dune is the biggest one in that
thing. Because this guy as the booker just beat Goldberg at star k Okay
for the title. Chris, He's got pace lips that says he wasn't the
booker till February or whatever. His pat answer is on that one. Okay,
yeah, okay, So he beats Goldberg for the title and the fans
that cheer. I mean, Kevin Nash was an extremely over baby face absolutely
in that time period. So Hogu's coming back, the play would have been
nWo versus nWo. Can you imagine because they haven't really done that. They
had let their little nWo inside beefs you know and stuff. But imagine,
I mean, Hogan and Nash pay per view main event, you build that
up. How much money that would have made. I mean just the fact
that you're doing that stuff. I mean they hadn't been done yet. And
yeah, they've done the wolf Pack w Hollywood, they'd done Redd and Black
reading whatever, Black and White versus Black and Redd and they never used Like
you said, the two leaders of the factions never collided exactly. So instead
of putting them all together in one thing, let's do Hogan Nash as a
big pay per view. I mean, the fact that they didn't do that,
I mean, it's amazing idiocy that that didn't happen. And also another
thing in that era that doesn't get talked about enough is the fact that they
were about to be on NBC. Yeah, they were going to have primetime
specials on NBC because the NBA was under a lockout that time, wanted programming.
They had a relationship with w c BE because of the whole j Leno
thing, and they're get on there on Valentine's Day against WWS pay per view,
and then the NBA lockout ended, and then all of a sudden,
put ye there goes to the NBC thing. It's just there's so much stuff
that happened that was circumstance as well, and the deaf of WCW that was
beyond their control. And that's some of that type of stuff that was going
on there. You know, Owen Owen's death, I mean, just don't
get talked about. When Owen died Kevin Nash and Brent Hart were supposed to
have a match on the Tonight Show and Owen dies and Breton Brett finds out
about Owen's death on the plane to or from Leno, if I remember correctly
exactly, so that gets done. If Nash and Brett have a match on
the Tonight Show, that's a big d yeah, a major deal, and
that doesn't happen. So I mean, yeah, there there was circumstances that
that was beyond their control, that that helped kill w c W. And
you know, it's just it was a it was a comedy of errors,
but I mean it was a comedy of hers and in many ways, what
do you think of the moment where Kevin is watching back the blood falling from
the ceiling and he says, put that side by side with the finger poke,
and you tell me what killed w c W. And I sat there
and I said the finger poke, Like finger poke had way more of business
business impact than a botched blood drop. I mean, I guess what I'm
saying is that symptomatic of like, you know, how they couldn't get anything
right. But for God's sakes, I mean, it's just it's just silly.
It's just silly. It was on thunder first of it wasn't even on
Nitro, Yeah it was. It was just it's just one of those silly
w CW moments. But yeah, I mean it's just it was just so
much that went into it. And in two thousand, Russo just at the
bash of the beach just you know, you could tell he's just getting burned
out. Oh yeah, he doesn't know you know, what to do.
Everything is just throw everything at the wall and there's no vision. It's just
like it seems like they're circling the drain. I think it didn't make the
case. And I've heard it. I've heard the game Bischoff. Bischoff said
it. Russo says that when he disappears in October two thousand, I think
it's in his book he says this or intimates it, that he's basically sure
that they're trying to sell the company and like he's just being kept around.
Oh they were, yeah, actively actively, I mean they were actively trying
to sell the company in two thousand. Absolutely Evince did an interview in like
November of two thousand, Wade Keller caught up to him at like an event
and he's talking about how we wanted to buy WCW, but TNN won't let
us put a competing Wrestling's the thing. Okay, You'm glad you brought that
up when we did the Patreon on that. On that part of it,
I mean, we talk about what happens if WWF was it had not just
started with Viacom, where Viacom had this thing where they couldn't do it.
If they were if they were still in USA network, they would have bought
w c W then and would have kept the programming on TBS, and it
would have been it would have been a totally different dynamic. That's the thing.
If if they were have been able to have TBS time slots, then
w CW would have still been running, but have been ws w CW.
But at least it would have been a promotion that's doing something. And that's
the problem that when they did buy it, they couldn't do it because you
know it, Viacom wouldn't let them go to you know, stay on an
outside network. Then they were you know, they gave them the Saturday night
slot that they were going to run, and then the butt bag well thing
happened and everything went downhill from there. But I mean I could about WCW
as early as fall two thousand and you got to think that that's that word
is circulating enough that guys are like Russo taking their foot off the gas and
being like, I'm not just going to be like on the hamster wheel here
acting like if I do figure out a way to do a rating, it's
going to make any difference to the viability of WW, Like it's next chapters
in the offing, and you got Jerry Jarrett and he's trying to get involved
with JJ Dillon and all that. Oh yeah, that's deepally intriguing to me.
I mean, you've got a brat, You've got you know, Lenita
Erickson coming coming together with Jerry and Dylan and making an offer, and you
read Guy Evans book and he's got terrific detail on this whole thing in there.
Brad doesn't want to hear it, and that to me also supplants the
idea of putting a finger at Brad because he's not I mean, I don't
want to overstate it, but it basically looks like he doesn't want to hear
any competing offers now, but at the time it may have been to Bischoff's
fusiant offer as much as what Stu Sneyder had up his pocket, up his
sleeve if that deal fell through. But still it didn't seem like we're looking
for the highest and best bid here. It just didn't. Well, here's
the thing. The fusient thing is is Eric and Brad had an offendi for
Eric, but Eric also had Brian Badal. You know, it was a
very highly regarded guy in television, you know, with him as part of
the fusient thing. So that gave gravitas to them being a potential buyer the
company. Yes, in Brad Stiegel's eyes, because Brian Badall is the guy
that started Classic Sports Network. He had other things going on, you know,
in his past, so he had the gravitas in Brad Siegel's eyes that,
Okay, this is a serious, legitimate deal here, if you know,
if we can make it come to pass. And Brian has said,
like, the reason the deal was sixty million dollars wasn't because WCW and its
contracts were worth that much. In fact, a lot of the contracts wouldn't
have come with the deal. What was worth it is that contract guaranteed primetime
on TBS and TNT two hours a week on a weeknight, and it didn't
really matter per the purchase agreement that we've heard about, the sort of handshake
deal that was never finalized come to find out, or ultimately, I should
say, you know, even if it wasn't wrestling, that contract still would
have entitled Brian Badhald to program two hours of primetime on cable and they put
whatever you want in there and make that money. That's like a great fallback.
And when Jamie Kellner takes that off the table, then it's like,
well, you know, we don't want to buy WCW and then hustle to
find a deal. Although Bischoff did he you know, we know that Bischoff
went all around the horn trying to you know, dial for dollars and trying
to get a TV station to fill that gap that Kellner pulling a turner off
the table created in the structure of that deal. And you could almost hear
it in his voice that penultimate nitro, that second to last one where he
phones in and a Bischoff that is and talks about it. And I'm sure
they'll they'll excerpt that in episode four. You can hear it in his voice.
He's been working to like find an extra chapter to this fusient deal than
the originally talked about an announced uh constitution of it in January of two thousand
and one, and it's just not happening. He's not somebody who just got
a call and said it's dead. It's somebody who just finished to me,
just finished trying to keep it alive and realized that it was all dead ends
in the television world. But yeah, with Brian Badal that that's a key
thing. I don't think they talk to him, but we'll see if that's
uh, if the nature of that deal is touched on. Definitely, I'm
definitely curious to see how far in depth they go with fusiant E fusiant stuff,
because I mean that that had us excited because you know, you hear
all these plans they're gonna bring, you know, the Tory Mont guys in.
They're gonna John Muse. John Muse is gonna be the book or the
Cruiserweight Division. You know, Rob Van Dam is gonna be one of the
major stars of the company. Joey Styles is gonna be the new play by
play announcer. I mean because e c W has just now died, that's
right. So so now you're gonna have the e c W guys. They're
gonna be filtering in and stuff and like okay, you know, and mix
them up with the who WW already has still on the roster. So okay,
maybe something maybe disc can work here, a non Turner on w CW.
You know, how would that work on turner programming? You know?
I mean, so there was that level of excitement among fans, you know
that I knew about this possibly happening. And then the rug got pulled out
of Bundrus and the nytrop Panama City and that whole day and going into that,
it was like, Wow, what did you think about Russo talking about
his time on screen? It's a television character saying, you know, I'm
gonna go out there and get ratings myself. To me, it's like,
well, what was telling you? That was the play? Like? You
did it once and it didn't do a good rating? Did it twice?
It didn't do a good rating? You did it three D. I kind
of wondered about that one. But then they go through Goldberg's him through the
cage and all that and him getting concussed and it's a different it's a different
way of wrestling bookers in the past, whether it be active wrestlers or retired
wrestlers having themselves on television because they know that they're the ones they can trust.
They can't trust anybody else, but they can trust themselves and they're the
one writing it. Whether it be you know, a guy who is the
active wrestler, who's the champion, it makes himself champion, makes herself lead,
He'll lead Babyface, what have you, or like a cowboy Bill Watts
where you know he would be the announcer where he's laying out every all the
booking plans as an announcer, you know, you know Benson the play by
all those years, Vinson play by play. Absolutely, yes, So that's
it was Russo's own way of being that type of booker. But the thing
with Russo is is that this is that style television. He knows what he
wants, so of course he's gonna think he's the guy that's gonna produce the
type of stuff that he knows that the people want. Right that he can
he can speak his vision like to the te you know, yes, he
doesn't have to worry about a wrestler filtering it through their own style and it
not coming out the way he intended. And it absolutely and there was no
life there. I mean, I just I don't remember. Maybe there was
like a one or two week period where ratings didn't go down week over week
in like the summer of two thousand. I remember we did that tank Abbot
thing with Goldberg and he was out there screaming about shooting and it was like
it was so confusing, like even to somebody that fully was immersed and steeped
in the world. I thought it was great on the episode Chris where they
played that Colin he did the WW live. Did you listen to WW lives
religiously? I try to catch it every time. Okay, this is great
because this is something I give all the credit to Guy Evans for he got
all that audio and put it in his book. And it adds so much
because Russo is giving you real time pulse checks on this on his psyche.
Yes, I mean, he's he's he. That's one thing that was kind
of uh and daring about Russo was he wanted to hear what the fans had
to say and whether it's right or wrong. He wanted their opinion, and
you never thought that wrestling bookers ever wanted the wrestling fans opinion, you know.
But Russo would always you know, welcome callers and comments on ww Live
and he was very open about you know, stuff that was going on.
It was a refreshing, you know, transparency that you never had before.
Really like a streaming internet audio show on the ww website. Jeremy Borash and
Bob Ryder hosted it, and yeah, just describe to people who didn't catch
it, because it's not hard. It's not easy to find preserved audio of
this, although there is some great stuff out there. He basically just like
addresses the fan as somebody that's almost like an ambudsman, like representing their interest
in writing the show. I mean, most of the time he's kind of
being defensive and pushing back. He's got you, but he's got the charm.
He's not a heel on the show. Well, well, to think
about it, the fans that are listening to this show, more often than
not, we're going to be Russo type fans. That's good. That's the
thing. That's the thing. They were gonna be in line with that style
of thinking because there's early days of Internet and listening to real audio, you
know, cracy, real audio, you know stuff, and it's just that
that was gonna be more conducive to his style, was having having you know,
type of outlet to talk on. What would he do? What would
fans be like, hey can you push I don't know, oh yeah,
all kinds of stuff like that, Yeah, all kinds of stuff like that,
you know, why don't you uh, why don't you give who went
more screen time? And it's just stuff like that, you know, And
he would listen and sometimes things would happen from that, and sometimes it wouldn't.
But he was willing to talk to the fans and you're you're thinking,
like we I know that they there was the AOL chats of the years,
the years earlier, a few years earlier were I mean, Bischoff Vince did
AOL chats all the time, and they would take questions from fans. But
that's a totally different medium than you know, talking to him directly one to
one on you know, the telephone like that. Yeah. So it was
like Brussel was like the unapologetically like he would show up after Nitro, I
mean after TV. They would do post shows and he would show up and
he would talk about the show and blah blah blah blah blah, and yeah,
I mean it was entertaining and he was great as a guest on that
type of show. So yeah, and probably getting in that vortex of being
like, Okay, this is a real time like way to hear the audience
express to me what it is about the product that's catching their attention. But
like you said, it's that slice. So he's getting lost as vortex of
like this feedback loop of like a very small, i think portion of the
audience that he really needs to reach. He's telling himself he's narrow he's broadcasting,
not narrow casting. He's telling himself that I'm my style is the one
that's going to draw people in that aren't traditional WCW fans. But in reality,
he's catering to an even smaller slice of the of the fan base that
we started this this podcast talking about that that that crew of two million or
so that was with WCW for you know, almost twenty years. But he's
also surrounding himself with yes men. Yeah, that's the other thing too,
Jeremy Borash, Bob Ryder, you know, those type of guys who they're
not pushing him so to speak, they're not pushing back and against his negative
things. It's all about, you know, all this great stuff you're doing,
and he's on the show, and this, that and the other.
I mean that Jesus, that was all that going on. Get the booker
on the show. I mean, that's that's a unique access, you know
that. And then you had wrestlers that were Rousseau guys like Conan and Disco
Inferno and those type of guys who are shilling form hard. I mean yeah,
I mean definitely was a raw raw you know, VI's Russo thing.
But I mean when you're a fan of the promotion, you want to have
that type of positivity, you know. That's what I always what I always
think about whenever Russo will talk about things happening and wrestling and talk about like
he doesn't pay attention to the the minutia, doesn't pay attention to the chatter,
doesn't pay attention to the the gossip. It's like, oh, dude,
like, no, I saw you in operation back then. You were
reading and hanging on every word that was said about you, and I I,
oh god, yes, high doubt that that's gone, which you know,
makes him a compelling character in his own way because it's it's it's better
than being just like totally you know, like oblivious to what's said about you
and just repeating the same you know, Carnie lines over and over. I
mean, he certainly does that, but I feel like he does it with
a little bit more of a of a nuanced understanding of what People that really
scrutinized what he was doing would say, he's on he's on this radio show
and they play a clip of it episode three of the Vice series talking about
point nines and two point ones and four point seven ratings? Like what the
fuck? Who cares about? Like? What is the audience for that kind
of chatter? You were listening? I mean, did people really like call
in and say, Vince, what do you think about a two point one
this week? Stuff like that happened? It's crazy, yeah, I mean,
because this is the era where the ratings are to go on that next
level with the wrestling fans, where wrestling fans care about ratings, And it's
so silly that people even today how much they care about the TV ratings of
these shows. I mean, it's nuts, but I mean that was the
that was the new competition back then, was the TV ratings. And because
Nitro kicked Raw's ass for so long and now the worm has turned and WUF
is doing this massive ratings and w CW's not. W CW was still doing
great television ratings for cable televisions. We don't talk about they were doing great
ratings, but they were against w Apley was doing amazing rating and they were
doing way worse ratings than they themselves used to do. That's the thing,
exactly, exactly, yes, exactly. You know, it's one thing to
be an to be a show with no history of being number one on cable,
being number fourteen and being happy about that. But when you were once
number one and now you're number fourteen, it doesn't matter if you're doing better
numbers than rug Rats. You know, the comp is what you used to
be and why you aren't. I mean, Brad Siegel said it in the
first episode. It's like we wanted to We were competing with the USA network
and this was our way to, you know, compete with their number one
program. Wrestling was the reason USA was number one and cable. We want
to be there, and if wrestling is that, we were probably obliged to
lean into it, even if we have a distaste for it. And once
that came off the table as part of the value proposition of supporting wrestling and
the internal organization, then what are we doing? I mean, now we
don't even have that. Now we don't even have the case that everyone up
the corporate chain can understand of taking on the number one cable network and fighting
fire with fire. But absolutely so, it's a final episode coming up next
week. I'm sure you'll be watching Chris leave us with this. You know,
we saw sort of like Bishoff right off into the sunset episode two.
We see Russo kind of right off into a different sunset episode three, walking
around their neighborhood or whatever. How do you think in the final analysis,
this episode sort of cast Russo. I mean, what are you left feeling
about his tenure at WCW Having watched this this third episode, I think that
Russo is a conflicted character where you know, he came in and saw himself
as possibly you know, the saving grace and all that, and he was
dealt an unfair hand. Why you have other people that said that he was
giving plenty of opportunities and he failed, and then you got some that said,
you know, he did good things and bad things. I mean,
it's just you know, a total, you know, hybrid of feelings from
different people and the ghost the ghost today. I mean, let's be I
mean, Vince Russo has been involved in wrestling for all these years and still
has probably stuff involved in wrestling we don't know about. I mean, the
good Lord DC Carter loved Vince Russo. Oh yeah, I mean she kept
them around for so long. I mean we're ten years, almost ten years
away from the day that you know, Vince Russo sent out the email to
Mike Johnson by mistake, revealing that he was still writing for TNA, when
Spike had told them that if he was writing for TNA that they didn't want
to they didn't want their programming basically, and then they dropped them at further
the point, you want to really blow someone's mind that's getting acquainted with the
death of WCW through this Vice series, tell them that after this is all
said and done, Russo and Bischoff in TNA pretend to be able to get
along and Hogan again. After that's the mind fucking yes, I mean,
but that's wrestling, that's the wrestling, that's the way shit goes. So
I mean I think that Russo. Russo definitely didn't get the uh the bishoff
uh you know treatment in this one. But I mean he was I think
he got more negative than positive. I mean, because that's what it was.
I mean, he's the guy that's forever gonna be linked to David Arquette,
you know, being the world chap And and again they brought it up,
and this is something that people don't bring up enough. Vince Russa made
himself world champion. People don't talk about that. That was about David Arkat,
David Arkat, David Arkuett. Vince Russa made himself world champion. You
know. So there's that. And and I did I did like that they
brought up Judy Bagwell on a pole and that's another thing that he's obviously remember
for as well. I mean the Rick Flair stuff. But David, I
mean Hacksaw as a janitor, Axaw as a janitor, you know, getting
hot dog stuff in his in his uh. And then I wish they would
have shown like the dubbing of the park. That's that's one of my favorite
Russo things. Uh, just all the stuff that was going on there,
you know that he was part of it was just like it's almost the cherry
on top of the ship Sunday in a way and back full circle. I
can't see the fans you knew growing up in Georgia like sticking with WCW through
this mess. It's just now it's impossible. That's one thing about you know,
what I was saying is the show that they enjoy watching the most was
w SEVY Saturday Night because that was the show that was like Russo free Wow,
and that goes out canceled in two thousand. It doesn't even make it
till the end. Yeah, Yeah, that's the show that had more.
They had the wrestling on there. It was a traditional wrestling show and didn't
have all the bullshit. You know, it had two hours of wrestling and
yeah you didn't get all the top stars, but still you got mainly wrestling
on those show. So so the traditionalists, that's the show that they liked
to watch. One't anything else really interesting, you know that went into that
into that, you know, and it's the tradition of being six y five,
So that was part of it too, and then you take that away.
I mean, good lord, I mean that is a that's a huge
blow too, that that didn't get talked about at all on this show.
Is them canceling Saturday Night unbelievable and with with Naria of Naria tear shed,
they didn't make a deal about it really and nothing they said anything about it.
I mean, it came to the point where Saturday Night was basically like
outsourced to a part of the the WCW operation that had nothing to do with
influencing what happened on Nitro and Thunder such that it was. It's truly comedic
how disembodied what happened on Saturday Night was from everything else. It was like
happening in another world entirely, because that's how disinterested they weren't it Towards the
end, and the one thing I want to say, you know, you
talk about the presentation of how Bischoff has shown all sort of stuff, I
mean, what do you expect. I mean, the people that were in
charge of production of the series, you know, they're gonna they're gonna be
treated a little bit differently sometimes because of of their you know, part in
the in the series. In a way, and that's just the way it
is. Russo was not a guy who was very well regarded by some of
the people that were involved in in the making of this series. But of
course they had to give his voice. He had he was on it.
But yeah, he's definitely gonna be treated different than Eric Bischoff was, absolutely,
but and and rightfully for reasons. But but yeah, it is interesting
that you know of things that get glossed over don't get talked about, and
things that are talked about. You know, you can't talk about everything,
but what you do choose to talk about is is a choice, and it's
u it's worth you know, discussing why this and not that? For sure?
Boy is the rock out of place in this too? God, I
mean I know, I know why he's on. I mean he's what the
producer blah blah blah, but boys, he out of boys. Yeah,
it's it strikes me that like if the episode, if the series was more
geared towards like what WWF was thinking and doing through all this, like all
the WWF produced documentaries about the WCW collapse have been in the many wars,
he would have a ton more to say. But so much of it,
like ninety percent of it is about what's happening in the w W locker room,
in the Turer board, and so he has no idea, like he's
not there, and there's only so much utility in having the guy talk about
what's happening over on the other side, because they're just kicking their ass,
you know. But it's it's it's it's it's interesting to see and the fat
and the fat Riy Flair is not on there. I mean Rick Flair staying
we're staying at I mean, I understand, yet you can never seen Sting
do anything like this ever. No, he's at it. No, he
no one forgets better than staying okay. And I'm not saying he's a memory
problem. I'm saying he's he's good at forgetting things that would create controversy.
But the one the one good thing about this, though, is they did
get the guys like Brad s Eeagle and uh Kick Cheet and Stut Schneider and
Neil Pruitt and Cheney Ingle and people like that that were behind the scenes that
you know they Brad Stiegel never talked to Guy Evans, right, he was
every interview a guy. Absolutely. That's what's new here is not only is
Brad Siegel, but but even getting on camera people that guy Evan's got in
print for the first time to find that there are actually people within the Turner
organization that were thoughtful about ww You know, it wasn't just like you could
talk to everyone at Turner you want and everyone be like, don't give a
fuck, like we just let the wrestling guy's handler. No. In fact,
Dick Cheatham is a huge mark and he had his hands on the controls
and he can explain to you how w W is positioned in the organization.
Is somebody that wanted wrestling because he'd love wrestling his whole life. Brad Siegel
a guy who you know, ended up being a huge part of his remit
it at Turner, even if that's not what he what he wanted. Genie
observing everything that happens, you know, from sort of like the executive assistants
chair and being Dusty's helper before she was a bishop's helper in that regard.
So yeah, that's what's new here is that's the new sort of vein that
can be tapped. And we'll see in episode four if they can take that
to the Promised Land and kind of leave us feeling like we know more about
the death of WCW than we might have before. So we do know a
lot more about what it was like to be a lifelong WCW fan and watch
this happen. Thanks to you, Chris Chris Selder from between the Sheets joining
us here on TLF tackles Who Killed WCW. I want to thank you very
much for the insights in the time and keep up the good work. Thank
you Jack, and you keep up the great work as well with all your projects.