Fran Hauser: The Myth of the Nice Girl.

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode one oh one. We're going to be interviewing fran Hauser today. Fran had a long career. At time, she ran the Digital Portion of Time, Inc. In addition to a whole lot of other divisions over the years. She is also now the author of The Myth of the Nice Girl, which talks about how niceness is not a bad thing when it comes to building a career, and in fact, can sometimes be your super So we're really excited to hear from her. This is airing in early July. You know, July fourth is kind of the start of the summer in the Northeast. The way I hear in Miami things are a little bit different, right, Sarah. Yeah, you're right. When I was growing up, I felt like July fourth was, you know, one of the maybe the second week of camp, you know, like the beginning, and our schools end so early, and they start so early that it's actually right around the midpoint here, maybe a week before. But you're right, it's a kind of time bending in a way. So yeah, I you know, I worked on this fourth of July, so not terribly exciting. But after that we are going on our family trip in July, which is usually August, but this year we kind of worked around a trip that my nanny wanted to go on, and we try to coordinate our vacation her vacation because that works out nicely. So we have that to look forward to. That's really awesome. Yeah, we've got a beach trip around the fourth and you know, big fan doing that most years. Don't know if we'll continue it indefinitely, but it's certainly a good week to take off because a lot, especially if the fourth is in the middle of the week, there's very little that happens around it, so it's almost like a freebie that nobody's really scheduling meetings on the third or the fifth, and nobody's holding their conferences that week, so we can. And if you pay for camps, it's usually a full priced week, but they don't have camp every day. Yeah, so you might as well may as well take it off. Yeah, So this episode is going to be about the idea of niceness and in a professional context what that means. So I have a question for you, Sarah. Do you consider yourself a nice person? I think I'm pretty nice. You're pretty nice. I think you are, too, But what does that mean to you? I mean, and I'm answering more in the professional realm, because I think that's kind of more what we're referring to. I think sometimes, if anything, I'm a little too approachable, which can backfire because then I feel like, okay, well there's two of us in charge. But I'm somehow getting all the kind of last minute oops text because people are not as scared to maybe tell me something. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's age, maybe it's experience. I am, you know, our guest spoiler alert does mention empathy. I think I'm a pretty empathetic person for whatever reason. So yeah, I think I'm I think professionally I'm pretty nice. But have you ever tried to maybe change that niceness up a little bit? Obviously you're still a you know, straight shooter and trustworthy and never going to be a jerk about it, but if you feel people are pushing you a little too far, if you're getting too many of those like ooh, not sure I'm going to get to it kind of text from somebody who really needs to get to it, Like, how do you deal with that? Yeah? I did. I struggle a little bit. I will snap at some point, and usually I don't know that I'm not at a person, but sometimes at a situation like I'll realize that something's not working. I mean, hey, this is a personal goal of mine. I think I would like to be better at addressing that sort of thing in people that I supervise, and as program director, that is a big part of my job, and it already was to some extent. Yeah, but I still think it can be done in a nice way. And again, not to give away some of the things we'll be finding out, but our guest gave some great suggestions as to how to start some of these difficult conversations. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm I mean, I'm definitely an introvert, and so I'm sort of naturally less like people oriented, and as we'll find out in the question section, I probably have a less of that obvious thing of knowing what people are thinking about me and reacting much to it, which has its upsides and downsides. The upside is you can write stuff and not really worry that much about what people are going to say about it, and people will say about man, that's life. There are always critics out there, and there's nothing you can do about that. The downside, of course, is that it's a social skill to really care situation what people are taking from it, And so I've tried to become more aware, certainly in situations where I have had to give feedback like how is this coming across? What is the other person thinking? You know, why would they want to listen to this? Let's make sure we think about what's in it for them. But you know, I always would try to be kind and considerate. I think I just i've yelling never works. I just don't think of any situation of like adults where the yelling actually works. And I've seen adults like yell at other adults in situations. It's just it doesn't reflect well on the person doing it. Like I mean, maybe for one moment you can get the other person to pay attention to you and you know, recognize that it's seriousness, but everyone else in the room is just like, WHOA, this person is out of control, Like, I don't think they're trustworthy. Yeah, there's essentially no role for yelling in the clinical environment. And you know that, you know, several decades ago, actually I think it was fairly common. For the record, I feel that you have always been very nice to me. Well, of course, yes, of course in our professional dealings with Yeah, yeah, no, it's of course, of course. And I've you know, over the years, worked with so many wonderful people that I don't think that it's ever you know, people very tolerant of my lack of social skills, which has been a wonderful, wonderful thing that I always wind up leaning on other people for that. But I definitely am trying to get better. And we're going to hear from fran about how she uses niceness as her superpower to achieve the success that she is achieved. Well, Sarah and I are excited to welcome Fran Hauser to the podcast today. Fran is the author of a great book that's called The Myth of the Nice Girl, and so we're going to learn all about why it's a myth that being a nice girl is a problem. So, Fran, could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure? Hi, everyone, thank you for having me. So I'm Fran Hauser. I've had a very long career in business. I was in media for a really long time. I was president of Digital at Timing, and for the last seven years I've been startup investing and advising, which I am loving. And I wrote The Myth of the Nice Girl about a year ago. It actually came out last April to basically debunk the myth that if you're nice at work, that it means that you're weak and that you're not going to get ahead. Yeah, and so you would went through a lot of the various time properties over the year, right, I would think it was a stint at like people or movie Phone or all the different parts of the empire, right. Yeah. So I actually started a movie phone in the late nineteen nineties and when it was still a privately helped company, and then movie Phone was actually acquired by AOL, so I ran movie Phone as a division of AOL. And then AOL and Time Warner merged, and Time Inc. Was one of the divisions that we got, you know, to work with when I was at AOL, and I fell in love with all of the people that worked there, and I just you know, those brands right like Time and Fortune and People in Style. So it was just such an honor really to be recruited to go to go work at Time Inc. I spent ten years there and I spent you know, all of that time in digital, so I didn't come from the print side, which made me interesting and different for sure. And I would say, really the biggest success that I had there was launching People dot com, so People Magazine's website into a really big, thriving business. So you know, when I first started there, it was really more of a marketing channel for the magazine, so it was all about getting people to subscribe to the magazine. But we you know, we built this incredible team and it ended up being one of the biggest businesses and most profitable businesses at the company by the time I moved on. That you were sorry, Sara had a cool time to be in that field, like so much change and you were probably nice and young and fresh too at the right time. So that, wow, what an amazing opportunity. I was just going to also ask, since our listeners are always curious, like, did you build your family around that time? After that time? I know you have a couple of children now, Yeah, so my kids are seven and eight and a half, and so let's see, they were born towards the end of my tenure at Time, inc. I was at Time for about ten years, and you know, having kids is life changing, to say the least, and it really just sort of forced me to think about my professional life and what I wanted that to look like. And I really wanted to create a life for myself where I had the time that I could spend with them, that I could spend with the boys. So that really that led me to working for myself. You know. So I left Time about I guess it was about six years ago, and you know, and since then, I've been I've been doing my startup, investing in advising and writing and know thought leadership stuff, and it's just been incredible, Like I just I feel so privileged that I have this like luxury of choosing the projects that I want to work on and the people that I want to work with, and you know, just really being able to to create the time and space to be there for the boys. It's just it's been so wonderful. I don't know if I could ever go back to work at a big company. You know, Like I loved it while I was there. I loved it. I did it for a really really long time. You know. I was I was at PwC, I was at Ernst and Young, I was a Coca Cola, you know, even before I moved over into media, and I think you know, it was it was so it was just incredible in so many ways. I had so many wonderful mentors and champions, and I really became, you know, a leader. I really grew into myself as a leader. But now, like I'm liking this this next chapter, you know, which is really more are kind of just working on my own, having my own personal platform. It was scary, though, I don't know if either of you I've ever worked for a big company. It was really scary leaving time because it was such a platform for me, you know, like I could I could pick up the phone and call anybody and get a call back from them. And the idea of like, oh wow, now I'm going to be out on my own, are people still going to call me back? That was really it was really scary. It was but because I had built such an incredible supportive network of people outside of the company that really allowed me to transition from media to investor. And you know, and thought, leader, well, you've just had so many transitions in your career. I mean, that's what's so cool about your career journey. Because I'm sure when you were taking this job at movie Phone, which for our listeners who are maybe on the younger side and are like, what on earth is that? You know, it's before you could order movie tickets via the internet, you could order them via phone, and so this is what phone was doing. But before movies Phone, by the way, it was the newspaper. Remember pulling out the newspaper and looking up the shows and looking up the showtimes and looking up the showtimes. So but you take a job at this company and like, you have no idea they're going to get acquired by AOL, which is then going to merge with Time Warner, which is then gonna you know, mean that you're going to be the head of digital for Time. I mean, it's just it's such a very thing and definitely seizing opportunities that come to you. And through this all, of course, you've been a very nice person, which is what we want to talk about today. So, you know, I read the book Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, as I'm sure you have as well, or at least heard of it, and there's definitely the story out there that that being nice is a problem, and particularly for women. And so why is this story out there? Like what is that sort of fear that people have that you're trying to address. Yeah, well, I think there's this this you know, regressive stereotype of what a successful leader looks like that's just really kind of elved, you know, over the years. And when we think about a successful leader, when we picture that person, first of all, it's usually a man, and it's usually somebody who is tough and competitive and demanding and smart and by the way, all of those are good things. They're all good things, but we rarely picture someone who's kind. And I know, for me, like the way that I've led over the course of my career is I've led with both kindness and strength, and I really believe that those two things they're not mutually exclusive, and the most effective leaders lead with both. Yet, you know, especially early on in my career, I was told many times by bosses and mentors like, you need to toughen up. You're too nice. You know, if you don't toughen up, you're not going to get ahead. And I remember like having these conversations around like, but why am I not going to get ahead if I'm like, I actually believe that that being nice is is is really powerful. And I would share stories as part of those conversations around how I thought being nice was actually helpful to me, Like I might talk about, you know, I was able to develop a relationship with this person because I showed that I really cared about them and I was able to establish trust, and then that relationship ended up resulting in this like really big deal. And so I was always like, throughout the course of my career, trying to change the conversation by using like real life examples. And I also had a lot of young women coming to me saying, my boss told me I'm too nice and that I need to be tougher, you know. How do I respond to that? And I would say, you know, respond by asking like, how is it specifically holding you back? Because often they're not going to be able to answer that question. They kind of use it as like a throwaway term, you know. Yeah. So that's been the thing for me, is that I just I always get asked, how can you be so nice and still be successful? I'm always asked. I've always been asked that, and I've spent so much of my career kind of talking about it and giving advice, and it just when I looked around to see what books were out there on the topic, all that I saw was books like Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office. So I really felt like there was there was white space for the book. We'll be bringing back Fran for more conversation in a moment, but first a word from our sponsor today, Lola. I've been intrigued by Lola for quite some time. I love their modern approach to feminine care. Lola is a female founded company offering a line of organic cotton tampons, paths, and other feminine care products. They're really big on natural ingredients with the idea that we shouldn't have to accept a long list of chemicals when it comes to things we put into our body. Lola offers paths, liners, and both BPA free plastic applicator or environmentally friendly non applicator tampons. 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Well, thank you to Lola, and now let's go back to our guest to talk about what being nice means and how it's different from being a pushover. That's it's a really good point. So when I think of someone who's nice at work, I think of someone who is emphathetic, who's collaborative, and who has the confidence that there are enough opportunities to go around. So it's really like the abundance mindset. It's very important that you know that you don't veer into that people pleasing territory and into that pushover territory. And I talk a lot about that in the book, Right, like when I think about somebody who is helpful, that's that's a great thing. But you don't want to be subservient, right Like being subservient is where you're basically just saying yes to everything and you're not setting boundaries around the things that are really important to you, around your priorities, right because you just want to please everyone, so you're just saying yes to everything, or you know, I think another kind of symptom of being a pushover people pleasers when it's time to make a decision and you're so busy getting buy in from everyone that you're not actually making the decision. So it's being really hyper aware of your behaviors and your intention right, and really thinking about, wait, why am I Why am I saying yes to this? Am I saying yes because I want to please this person? Or am I saying yes because it strategically makes a lot of sense and it's the right thing to do if I want to be effective? So you know, it's definitely a fine line and really important to be aware of your intention and why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah, I just had a thought as being nice something that actually it may be different on a gender level. I mean, I know females are certainly judged more harshly if they are not particularly nice. So does this apply equally do you feel like for male and female leaders. So it's interesting because when I was writing the book, I always felt that women got more of a bad rap if they were too nice at work, whereas for men, it always felt like if somebody said, oh, he's so nice, it's like, oh, he's really smart and he's also nice. It's like it's a great thing, you know. But that's so funny because I feel like women also get it on the other side more easily. They do. They do, And that's really the whole point of the book is that if you're too nice, you're a pushover. If you're too tough, you're a bitch. So like it's the struggle, right, it's the struggle and every thing line between. It's a very thin line. It's a very thin line. And like, you know, I talk a lot about how like it's possible to care for your team and also have high expectations of them, right, that's kindness and strength, Like you care about them and you're also going to have really high expectations. Or like when you're making a decision, yes, get input from people, but at the end of the day, like you have to make the decision, right, you have to make the call, and you have to be able to stand in your own two shoes. So but going back to the whole like men and women thing, what's been interesting for me to see is that so many men have read the book. Even though I've read it, I've wrote it for women. So many men have read the book and they say, you know what this applies to us too, So I've heard that quite a bit from them, that they they're you know, they're very cognizant of how they're showing up in the workplace, and that they don't want to come across as being too nice because they don't they don't want to be thought of as a pushover. So they're struggling with a lot of the same things that that we're struggling with, is what I'm hearing now. So I feel like my point of view has changed a little bit on that. So, friend, one of the things I loved about your book is is that you tell so many stories from your own career, So I wonder if you could share one with our listeners about how being nice was your superpower, that you were able to do something that was seen as very complex or challenging that wouldn't have happened if you didn't have this level of empathy and team building skills that you had. So a really good example I think for my career is when I got my first big promotion, when you know, when I was a Coca Cola and I was promoted into this role where I was going to be director of finance for Coca Cola Enterprises, New York division. It was a really big division. It was a five hundred million dollar revenue division. I was going to be overseeing one hundred and forty people. And I was promoted over a lot of other people that had way more experience than I had. They had been there for a lot longer. And I think people were really surprised, truthfully, I know I was. I was really surprised when I got the promotion. And when I asked my boss why me, what he had to say was he said things like, you know, Fran, You're able to influence people to get things done, and you have a team that's so loyal that will follow you anywhere, and you've built this incredible network in really strong relationships. And when I took a step back and I kind of took all of that in, it struck me that he didn't say anything at all about my technical skills or my functional skills. He was so focused on my relational skills, and he felt that those were going to be the things that were going to be really important in terms of being successful in this role. And that's what he looking for, and you know, in the right candidate. And when I think about those things, for me, it's like all about coming back to being a nice person and like being caring and like, you know, just just really like caring about connecting with other people and amplifying their voices and elevating them and building relationships and all of that. So I think that's like a real example of how being nice was helpful to me in advancing, you know, throughout my career. And then I can think of so many different examples of how being nice was helpful in doing something that really created value for the company. I mean, I think about how many times the company that I worked for was stuck in a negotiation and I was asked to come in to get it unstuck. And really, I mean it's not rocket science. All I did was I came in and I asked the other side what's important to you, Like what do you need to get out of this negotiation? And you know, what is the most important thing to you? And I listened, I actively listened, and I established trust because I showed the other side that I really cared about what they needed to get out of this. So there were so many examples like that where like we were stuck, and then how do you get unstuck by establishing trust and by listening and by being empathetic. I mean, I think empathy is one of the most undervalued traits in a in a leader, you know. I just I use it all the time in a very natural and a very organic way. But if you think about, like, if you're disagreeing with someone, if you're showing empathy, you're more likely to come to a shared understanding, right if you're if you're asking for a raise, if you put yourself in your manager's shoes and think about, like, what do they stand to lose if they can't hold on to you, they can't retain you, you know, or what is the com companies stand to lose. So I think empathy is a huge part of it, and it's a big part of being nice for me. Yeah, definitely. I mean, just something as simple as asking people about their weekend. I mean, you know, there's so many people who think that's like a total waste of time, and yet here you're getting a promotion because you're the person who's asking everyone about their weekend and then listening when they answer yes, and even imagine that and even I don't know about you, guys, but like I know, sometimes I'm going into a conversation, I have thirty minutes it's a phone call or it's in person, and I'm thinking about, Okay, here are the three things that I have to get out of this call, right, because we're all like so, you know, booked back to back and all of that, and I have to stop myself and I have to remind myself that when I start the conversation, I have to start it, and I want to start it by asking a question, and you know, by getting the other person to open up, whether it's about their weekend or just how they're doing, or I mean, just spending two minutes making that connection and establishing trust at the beginning of that conversation will make the remaining twenty eight minutes so much more productive and a lot I think often because we all have so much on our plates, we just forget to do that or we don't take the time to do that. It's so funny. It makes me think how I often arrive Monday morning and my staff will be there and I'll start like talking about like what we have to do that day, and then but the good thing is I usually before I've I've done this so many times where I walk back to my office and then I'm like, oh my god, I didn't ask you about a weekend, and I'll like pivot back and be like, wait, well, why did you do this time? I'm trussing my instincts that that is a very important. Yeah, I kind of exactly, Fran. You face some really difficult situations in your career as well. I mean you've had to lay people off, You've had to fire people. So I mean obviously nice people have to do these things too as they rise up the ranks of their organization. So how how does a nice girl lay people off? How does a nice girl fire people? And how did your niceness help you in these situations? Yeah, it's it's you know, it never gets easy. Like I think about how many people I've had to lay off, you know, over the years, or how many people I've even just had to give like really tough feedback, right, delivering that tough like you know, in a performance review or whatever. And a big part of it is, well, let's start with just you know, with with having to lay people off. You know, I always start the conversation by saying, this is going to be a really difficult conversation, you know, as opposed to just like launching into we're restructuring the company and blah blah blah. Right, so just acknowledging, acknowledging taking a second and acknowledging that, yes, this is going to be a difficult conversation, really being present for them, you know, in that those few minutes, because that's really all it ends up being unfortunate. You know, when you lay somebody up, it's a pretty short conversation. But the non verbal stuff is really important, like the eye contact and really showing them that you are listening and that you do care, and if it's warranted, if you know, if it feels genuine and authentic, offering to provide a reference, you know, offering to be helpful to them as they as they look for their next thing. I mean, I think you know, all of that is really important. The one thing I do want to share though, when it comes to giving tough feedback that I've learned is really important is when we were researching the book, we were studying the way that the brain works. And you know, there's a part of your brain called the amygdala that's all about the sensing threat. And when its senses threat, it can be physical emotional psychological it triggers a fight flight or freeze. And it's really important to understand that when you have to deliver difficult news or tough feedback, because if you start the conversation in a way that's threatening, the person is automatically going to shut down. You know, they're just it's not going to be a productive conversation. So the way that you start the conversation is everything. So you know, I even think about like giving performance reviews. Over the years, I found that it really helps to start the conversation by saying something like I'm your biggest fan, you know, I'm I'm here to support you and I want to see you be successful in your career. And if you start the conversation by saying something like that, it just puts the person at ease because they feel like you're on their side, you know, as opposed to starting the conversation by saying something like, look, we have some things we need to talk about right away. There amygdala is going to be like whoa like threat threat threat, So the way that you start the conversation is very important. And I also I also like to say that when you do give the feedback, like be very specific and clear about what the feedback is. Because I once had a manager who is so nice that her feedback to me, she was sugarcoating it and it was so wishy washy that I didn't really understand what she wanted me to do. Like I walked out of that conversation feeling like, I know she wants me to do something, I don't know what it is. So being like clear, you know, after you've framed the conversation in a really positive way, having that clarity is also it's really important and you owe that to the person as well. Yeah, No, I think that's very important. And again it's that trust issue, and you've built up the trust over the years so that when you are giving critical feedback, they're willing to listen, whereas if somebody doesn't think you're on their team, they just shut down and they're out and absolutely nothing will get through. And it all comes back to trust, right It all that, like relationships are built based on trust. So it's even like little things like doing what you say you're going to do. That's how you get people to trust you, Right, you say you're going to do something and you actually do it. In the startup world. I hear pitches all the time, and and you know, after we get you know, after we get through the pitch deck, often there'll be some follow ups like I'll ask for whatever, like one or two things that the founder needs to follow up on, and you would be so surprised to see like how many times like they don't follow up, like they don't like and do you think I'm going to invest in that in that founder? No, right, because like there's no trust. And then I'm thinking if they're not going to follow up with me, like what about their clients? What about the customer? What about right? So it's when you say you're going to do something, follow through. It's a really simple rule. That's pretty amazing to think that someone who's asking you to invest in their business would then not I think they would have their pen out with little check blocks and maybe like on it, that's on it, on it the next day or you know. The other thing I see, which is which is interesting is and this is a I've seen there's a gender dynamic here for sure, where women will say that they're going to get me an updated deck, and it takes them to get it to me because they want to make it so perfect, whereas like guys will get it to me the next day, you know, and it doesn't have to be perfect. They're more like about the substance and the content as opposed to the form and the presentation. But I do think as women, we have this like crazy thing about perfection and you know, how it has to be all like tied up in a bow and look perfect. Do you guys see that? Is like, well, we actually have a it's not this episode, but we had a listener question on exactly this some female scientist who it sounds like was being a bit over conscientious and I know I'm familiar with there's actually data on that that you know, and that's it's thought that maybe that's why women do better in school and then struggle later on. Yeah, well, and especially this person, you know, transitioning into industry, where in academia there'd been sort of a different timeline and expectations where when you're launching a product kind of need to do it at some point, and so I think that that was the struggle there. But I'm glad you pivoted to the investing part because we definitely wanted to talk about that too, and how being nice plays out there and may help you because you know, I'm sure most people do not think of seeing Shark Tank or something. They don't really think of early stage investing as being particularly the realm for nice people, except for the you know, the token nice character on Shark Tank. Right, So how does how does niceness play out there and you know, help you as you are evaluating companies and trying to keep your eye on the bottom line, but also trying to be very encouraging to founders as well. Well. I think, you know, a big part of it for me is that when I do make an investment or when I take on an advising relationship, I really see myself as a partner to the founder and it's a long term relationship, right that hopefully that is how you're getting into. So I actually believe that, you know, it's not just about writing the check, like I can write the check, but it's more about how am I going to be there as a mentor, as a champion, as a supporter, as an advisor. I want to be the person that, you know, the first person that they call, like when they're struggling, because founders struggle, right, Every business struggles and often founders are so afraid to share bad news with investors and with advisors, like they they want to come, you know, come across like everything is great, everything is going great. You know, they send the monthly update, everything is perfect, and you know, I really encourage founders to be transparent and to talk about their struggles, and it's it's sort of like a selling point, I think for me because when you're when you're entering into these relationships, it's not just the investor that's deciding, it's the founder that's deciding. Right, is this the kind of investor that I want on the team. So, you know, a big part of who I am, a big part of my brand is like I'm you know, I am to be there for you. It's not just about it's not just about writing the check. Yeah that's great. Well, Fran this has been awesome. I mean, I know you say we get spoiled by self employment, Like if I was ever going to work for somebody'd want to be somebody like you. So thank you. Definitely admire your career. You So we we always do our Love of the Week segment. Sarah and I can go first to something that is you know, being good for us right now and then and then we'll hear from you. So, Sarah, what do you have for us this week? I have the fact that many of these school purchasing opportunities have moved online. I know, we spoke curiously about the school supply box and I'm happy to say our new school system, it was like a one click thing and they're delivering it to the room so I don't even have to pick it up and really have that, by the way, and I love it. Yeah, and we just we just did that for spirit wear just last week. So if you you know, like the T shirts and the hoodies and the shorts, so it's it's on line now. Amazing, amazing, Yes, No, definitely better than it's like sending in money the kid, which is you know, I've discovered not a foolproof delivery nothing so so mine. You know. This is airing in the early summer. And my love of the week is Day's ice Cream and Ocean Grove, which we will be visiting many times. We love to go to the Jersey Shore. Those of us who are up in the northeast here wind up at the Jersey Shore a lot. And this particular ice cream store is a perennial favorite, and summer would not feel summer like summer without it. So I'm really looking forward to some upcoming visits to that. How about you, Fran Well, So the thing that's top of mind right now is I was actually at Crig Curig doctor Pepper's offices in Massachusetts yesterday doing a talk about the book. And I am a huge Curerig fan, Like I love Carrig, and we have two we have two machines in our house here. We have a little ski conto up in Vermont. We have one there. So it was so fun to actually like go into the office. They had this big pod wall they had where they had probably like you know, fifty different kinds of pods of coffee, and they actually they gifted me, uh and it's a brand called Laughing Man Coffee. That's actually it's by Hugh Jackman. So Hugh Jackman partner, he's in the coffee business. I know he's in the coffee business. Now we've partnered with the Carrig. It's fair trade coffee and I actually I tried it this morning and it is so good. So I just have Kirig on my mind. D totally. Hugh Jackman has total Coffee Jackman is now into coffee related love with the WEEKND. We're always Frians of that. All right, well, Fran, thank you so much for being here with us, and everyone should check out the Myth of the Nice Girl Frandhuser's book and where else can our listeners find you Franhauser dot com and on social media at fran underscore Houser beautiful. Thank you so much, Fran, thank you. Okay, so that was great. I really enjoyed listening to her, and I feel like I learned a lot in a short time. For our Q and A segment, I actually pulled this off of Laura's blog. It was not a specific question addressed to the podcast, but I'm going to keep the name anonymous, and I don't think this person will mind us using her question. She writes, and this was actually in response to Laura talking about a weekend she spent or maybe it was a day where she was reading on the sidelines of her kids and the books that she was able to finish, which by the way, is often quite a lot. Okay, so she writes, I want to ask about the time you spend reading a lot of kids activity do you ever get dirty looks or even comments from other parents, or are you treated differently as a result of excusing yourself from the activity and not just hanging out with the other parents. My kids are in a variety of activities and I often bring a book to read, but almost never read it. It feels rude to the other parents who are chatting and building relationships and camaraderie, and at least to some degree, I make myself fee left out. She talks about how there's sometimes all day tournaments where there's periods of downtime and you know, not a time, not a problem to spend a few minutes here or there, but she feels like being physically present but not engaged with the group is is hard, and she mentions that when your kids are younger, you want to get to know the other parents because your kids are starting to form friendships. When they get older, the parent relationships can be part of the kids' statuses. What do you and your readers think about this dynamic and what do you recommend? I was drawn to this question because I will admit that I have had the exact same issue, and often I would much I do want to read my book, especially if it's you know, a day that I was in the office all day talking to people and the last thing I want to do is continue to socialize, and I'll bring a book and I'll try to look busy, but it never usually works. And then same as this person. So I tend to I don't have an answer, I tend to feel guilty, and I just put the book down, and then I feel like I didn't get that time that I could have had on the sideline. So Laura, tell us your secrets. My secrets, Well, one is just to disappear, because if you're in the situation where you are able to read, like it's presumably your kid is not like in the goal, you know, keeping the soccer ball out of it right at that moment, like you're not reading it during a time where there's active stuff that you would be watching, right, So that means you could potentially go somewhere where other people can't see you. I think this was posted after the camping trip where I went and read in my tent, like nobody knows where you are, Like why not go read in the tent? Right? Like I mean, I feel like there's lots of time you can interact of course, and some of that's going to be while you all are watching and sort of those active moments of the kid's activity, so you could disappear. The other thing I've also saying is, for some reason, a book is reacted differently to than your phone. Parents are on their phones at events all the time, and everyone's just like, oh, they're just on their phone. Maybe they're just checking their email or something. You know. I don't think people react the same way to you being on your phone as they would to you pulling out a paperback. So just read on your phone. I mean that's honestly, Like I pull out the phone and I'm looking at the Kindle app and I can read, you know, all sorts of stuff in a five minute chunk or a ten minute chunker, you know, longer, if it's in a situation where that is warranted. I think also just I mean, these some of these events are long enough that you just have to think about how you want to spend your life. And I love meeting people and chatting with them, and I definitely do that, and you know, try and encourage those friendships, like I'd like to know my kids friends parents. But I think there can be a balance too, and so you know, you can talk for half an hour and then disappear, like they don't know where you are. Maybe you're in the bathroom, but maybe you're also in your car reading. So I would be cognizant that you can split it. I just don't know that there's as much judgment as people think there is. Like I continually come back to this idea that we are all in our own little world. Like if I saw a parent on a phone at an event, I wouldn't think, like, this person is rude and doesn't want to talk to me and they're horrible and our kids should never be friends. I should never have a played it with it. That's not what I'm thinking, Like, Oh, I guess they're just doing something right now. If I need to ask something, I want to say hello, I'll do it in a bit, you know, That's what I'm thinking. I think my answer has got to be to disappear. Yeah, because I'm actually I'm having flashbacks to like this class which was drop off and they were both in it at the same time, and you can't watch the class even if you wanted to, you have to leave the premises. But instead I made the mistake of like sitting on a bench in the front of the gym and calculation that I did not really feel like spending an hour talking to ended up spending Now we're talking to me, talking at me. Really, So if I had just gone to my car, the whole crisis might have been been solved. You would have had that hour of your life to do whatever you wished. Yeah, so disappearing and if disappearing isn't possible, using your phone for the things that you would have been using your paperback for can work as well. So yeah, well this has been the best of both worlds. We've been talking with fran Hauser about how to get ahead as a nice girl, and now here we are answering the questions about how as a nice person to read your book and get some peace and quiet an event for your kids, which hopefully, yes, people is possibly judging you less than you think they are. We'll be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura Vandercam dot com This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.