I, Tonya

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dronte, my name is Jamie Loftz, and it's your birthday episode, Jamie the episode. I'm so excited. Oh and boy do we have my favorite movie of all time for you today. So what we are doing today on the Bechtel Cast and we will get you up to speed. If you've never listened before, welcome, It's my birthday. We're gonna tell you what the podcast is about in a second. But for for returning listeners, we are unlocking an episode from our patreon ak Matreon back from eighteen yeah early, which, as we'll discuss, was in a way five thousand years ago. But but yeah, it's an episode about Titania, one of my faves. And so if you're not a member of the Matreon, this will be your first time. And if you also, if you're not a member of the Matreon, you know, think about joining us. It's a great little space for for everybody, beautiful community. But yes, uh, it is Italian Day on the cast. But first we have to tell everybody what our podcast is about, because we don't do that in Patreon episodes. If you're on the Matreon, you already know what you're getting into. But this, but on the main fade, we have to We have to be respectful of the fact that maybe it's your first time here because you're just an itonia stand and you couldn't help but click so true. So what we do on the Bechtel Cast is examine film through an intersectional feminist lens, focusing on the representation of women, but extending the conversation further to other topics. And we use the Bechdel Test as a just inspiration jumping off point, if you will. And that is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it requires that for our purposes, are version of the test that too, people of any marginalized gender. They have to have names, they have to speak to each other about something other than a man for at least two lines of dialogue. Let's try it, Okay, let's do it. Okay, Hey Caitlin, Yes, Jamie. Um, do you ever feel like in a biopic you're like, this biopic is so amazing, and then you learn about the subject of the biopic and you're like, oh, jeez um, yes, I have done that before, especially when the biopic is about a woman. It makes you think and then it passes the Bechtel test. Yeah, it doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to make sense, just really some bare minimum stuff. Most movies don't do it. You will not be shocked to know this movie is an exception. It's true. But yes, so we're gonna get the episode started up. We're gonna kind of cut you in at the recap, right, yeah, slightly before the recap. So what I was thinking, because since we've recorded this two and a half years two and a half years ago, right, so a little um, a little peek behind the curtain everyone. We recorded this early. It was when we were still recording our Matreon Patreon episodes on my iPhone. In my bed was the one that was on your eye. They're usually pre COVID. They were all in your bed, but not all on your I've uh, there's a clear timeline if if you're right, we the early UM Patreon episodes we recorded on my iPhone, so the sound quality is not bad. But if it doesn't sound top notch, that is why it was early days in the in the majors, then we upgraded to some fancier equipment, but in any case, so that if you're like, this doesn't sound as good as it normally does, that's why UM. Also before we jump into the episode, we wanted to address something that we have had the habit of doing in the past, but we have been we've become more aware of this thing that we're doing and we have been phasing it out. And what it is is the use of certain phrases or just certain language that is disparaging of mental illness and is able list and what I mean what we mean by that is we use in this episode and others passed phrases like oh, that's crazy or that's insane or um etcetera. From from that line of thinking, this is still very common language that a lot of people use, and we would encourage you to try to scale back on it, get rid of it, not include that in your language anymore, because like we said, it is disparaging of mental illness and is able list. And so if you are interested, we will leave some uh some links in the notes of this episode, UM in case you have any questions about um certain words, uses of words. We want to UM educate our listeners just as our listeners have educated us. These are words that have since been worked out of the show and our lives, and we hope to continue to do better. And you know, if if these are still words in your daily rotation, uh, there are so many wonderful substitutes. That's the thing about words. You don't need to use uh, words that are disparaging to be well because guess what, there's other words. It's true synonyms exist, so we wanted to acknowledge that as well. Oh and another thing we want to be better about doing moving forward is to include content warnings for episodes in which we discuss topics that are sensitive and potentially triggering. So in this episode, we'd like to include a content warning regarding our discussion of physical and emotional abuse. So there's that, And and we also wanted to update our history with the movie because we uh we recorded this episode just a couple months, I mean the two maybe months after this movie came out. Um, and so you know the the movie has like whatever eight couples in age that we talked about eight couple that's not even accurate or whatever. It's older. It's much older, right, And and you're especially your relationship with that Jamie has grown and gotten more special, grown and deepened. Yeah. So for me, I mean we both saw the movie in theaters a couple of times. I really enjoyed it. I haven't watched it though since we recorded the episode, aside from when I rewatched it a couple of days ago, just too because I know we were doing this episode and wanted to refresh my memory. Um. But for you, Jamie, the reason so you're releasing this as your birthday episode because it's become such an important movie for you, So tell us about that. It's well, I guess when this movie came out, I knew it was one of my favorite movies already because I saw it nine times in theaters, which I have never done before and never did since this episode Slash. This movie came out during this wonderful time where movie pass was a thing that worked and it actually cost ten dollars, and so the only thing I used my movie pass for was to see I Tania at nine times and I unsubscribed and then movie passed. Employ did and no one has heard from her since. But so I saw this movie nine times within two months. I think I just loved it. There is like I've always been very attached to the Tanya Harding myth. Basically it's a culture, you know, an American myth. At this point. I my first cartoon I ever made was about Tanya Harding. Remember that. Really it was like, yeah, it was forever ago, but I really always I'm sure to talk about in the episode two, but I was always very attached to her, just kind of as like someone who came from like the lower middle class. I think Tanya came up from an even lower class than than I was from. But I just was really, I really it really spoke to me how determined she was and how she didn't take shipped from people, and kind of how that attitude results in being punished by the culture that you live in, especially at the time that she was skating. And I think the movie is so well done. It's written and directed by a man, and yet I like it and it's sometimes men don't do horrible work. Really, they really figured it out this time. I I rewatched this movie last week, and I still love it so much. It makes me cry a lot. It's the only time I've ever been impressed by Sebastian stan Uh, Margot Robbie's at her best. I just I think it is such a fun and engaging movie that manages to make I think, like takes a lot of very serious topics and treats them with the weight and the respect they deserve, but also don't make it like a depression experience. I think it's still like a super engaging and fun movie. And after the last time I saw this movie in a theater, I was seeing this movie in theaters as late as July. Wow, because I think you remember this when I say it's because as they did a rooftop screening of Ae Tania in downtown Los Angeles and Tanya Harding was there, And it's here that I wanted to just acknowledge because it's just interesting, I guess of like, I mean, obviously, never meet your heroes, but this one stung a little Like Tanya Harding very sweet, but she gave kind of like some opening statements and I actually I'm going to cite myself here. I wrote a piece about it at the time for a paste magazine called Falling out of Love a Tanya Harding, and that kind of says what I'm saying now. Just like Tanya Harding was a kind of a hero of mine, and like she overcame so much and was like, you know, maintained her dignity through a really difficult experience. But then when you hear her talk about her political views, you're like, oh, dear, she didn't get explicitly into her political views in that, but there was enough. There was some uh so bat signaling to some things I really don't agree with, and it I mean, and I'm sure like our our listeners, everyone at some point in their life realizes that you have to idolize the idea and the message and not the person. But this was one of those moments for me where I was just like I wanted, you know, I wanted to agree with Tanya Harding on everything. I wanted her to have like views that I aligned with, but um simply wasn't the way it went. But I still really love the movie. I feel like it is just my favorite movie ever. I watch it all the time I wanted to fall asleep. I watch it to call like, I just it's my movie. I love it. Yeah. Cool, Well, I think with that we can just launch into you know, in a movie when they do like kind of like it's some sort of call that effect. It's like transition is like a ripple, like like the ripple effect, like the dream, like the flashbacks. It's imagine that whatever the audio version of that is. We that's so okay. I Tania is if You're not aware? Is the new Tanya Harding biopic starring Margot Robbie as Tanya Harding and Alison Janney as Tanya Harding's mother, and a guy from Gossip Girl as Jeff Lally hot hot hot Jeff really hot hot hot in this movie distracting, can't deal with it, and I'm very upset that I think he's hot because his character is horrible. His character is and as a person, he's a horrible person, and real life Jeff really not hot. Basically everyone real life in this story not hot. But it's a movie so hot. Sorry, I just explained how movies worked like regular but like way hotter. So So it's about for Olympics, where a media frenzy surrounding Tanya Hardening when she allegedly was involved with whacking Nancy Kerrigan, who is barely addressed in this story very intentionally and we'll get there too. But so it's got a lot of buns of Marco Robbie. People loved her performance, Alison Janny queer icon, Alison Jenny's character Janson Janny and Jenny queer icon, but I would argue Alison Janny and a fur coat with a parent queer icon like easily. So yeah, that's the movie. If you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend sing it. I think it's such a fun, well done movie. I love it. Are The one thing I was surprised about with this movie is I mean when they say I Tanya, they're not kidding. Nancy Kerrigan is like left out of this story, which I think. I don't even think she has any lines except for when she's like why after she gets hit exactly yeah no. And then they have whoever the actress that was on set for two or three days playing the part of Nancy Karen, They just have her basically reenacting news footage, which is weird because it's like in all like the more recent documentaries about this, there's a lot of talk about how like Nancy was also done a huge disservice by the media and not I mean, not as significant as Tanya obviously, but you know, Nancy didn't do anything. I feel like Nancy often gets framed as like this, like prissy bitch when Nancy, which they this was like the thing that I was like, Oh, they're really not going to mention this in the movie at all. Nancy was just as poor as Tanya Harding. She was not from an abusive family, but she was also like a blue collar gal who was reframed by the media to not seem like that and was like held accountable for like, oh, look at this rich bitch when she wasn't. And so that's all I have to say. I just thought it was she she's really glossed over. I mean, this movie is we're seeing it through Tanya's eyes, and so I guess it's like Nancy's a pressy bitch. But I thought a little more could have been done to just acknowledge that. May I posit a theory sure that this movie is the first of a figure skating extended universe cinematic universe and there's going to be and I Nancy. Could I play Nancy Kerrigan? Yes, I cast you rememb Burnett from Massachusetts. I could do it. Yeah, you've done ballet figure skating. His ballet on ice, right, dude, exactly. Don't send me hate mail for saying so. I feel like there's someone out there. No, it's I mean figures hard. I could not. I couldn't hang. I tried it when I was little, couldn't do it. I got really good at roller skating as a kid, and not roller blades roller skates. Oh sorry, yeah they're different. Sorry didn't but I never I never ice skated until like a couple of years ago. Uh, and some of the skills do transfer over. Because all my friends were like falling because I've never like roller skated or ice skated before. But I was like pretty good beginner and they were like, Caitlin, how are you so good at this? I'm like, bitch, I roller skated. You're you have a lot of interesting hidden talent. You really do. Thank you. Recap. Yeah, let's recap Tania. So it's this cast of actors reenacting both interviews that are like direct to camera and then also the story events as they unfold. So every actor we see, we see they're basically playing the same character over the course of almost three decades. Like I think Margot Robbie plays Tanya between ages fifteen and forty and then yeah, so you see like older Tanya played by Margot Robbie in interview style, same thing with what's his name, Stan Sebastian Stan Stan hot hot Okay, I know he's so hot as young Jeff Gluely, as older Jeff Gluey without weird goatee horrible. The mustache is better. He's got somehow, he's got a face that works for a real life Jeff Gluly did look like straight up disgusting with the mustache. But I mean this again, it's like movie hotness of just like I guess you can just wear that and it's hot. Well shit, Okay, my favorite performance in this movie. Margot Robbie is awesome. Alison Jenny is awesome. My favorite performance in this movie. I have to look at this guy's name because he is like, I think this is his big first like the guy who plays s Yeah, unbelieving Paul Walter Houser. I hope he's in everything. He was so good. This is a breakout role for him. I hope. So, dude, he was so fucking funny. I know, and I wasn't. I didn't realize that I've never done like a real deep dive on Sean Ekart and I didn't realize how fully delusional he was. And then when they do at the end, they do like the side by side to see how exactly they re enacted interviews. The Sean card interviews are crazy. He's like, probably work in covert ops, counter terrorism, like espionage, and you're like, what, They're like, Sean, but you don't. He goes but he's like, but we checked in, you don't. He's like, oh, but I do. I do? And I He's so fucking funny, and like, I just shout out to Paul walter Hauser wherever you are. I'm sure you're listening. I just thought he was like brilliant, and I hope he's in everything now. Yeah, he was. So he was so great. So I Tania the story. We follow Iitania through her ice skating Iania harding, how are we going to record another episode after this? It's gonna be great. We followed Tania where I think she is named through her finger skating career, which starts when she's a soft four, which means three. So we meet her mother, Lavanna, who is how to describe her, She's overbearing, she is emotionally abusive, she's physically abusive. She is one of those parents who look at all the sacrifices I've made for you and you don't appreciate anything. And she's a very bad parent. We'll hit on this in a bunch of different places, but this movie. People have differing opinions on how this movie does with the topic of class. I think it does pretty well, especially based on the fact that from what I get, and if you know differently, please hit us up. But pretty much every event described in this movie is based on anecdotal evidence and interviews. So it's kind of tricky to make the argument of like they're making these white trash people look like a joke, and it's like, well, they did confirm that this is what they did down to like that guy Derek's like running through a fucking pane of glass to get like that really happened. There's footage of that happening. Yeah, Like all the stuff in the movie basically is stuff that real life idiots. Did Wait, did it happen where he bash just head through it? Because he had the baton, he could have broken the glass with I guess that's possible. I don't know anyways, the way this movie deals with class, because it does make a commentary without changing the story. But I don't know. I mean, I was fortunate to have parents that were not abusive and are great. They're my problematic faiths, But I do think it was like interesting setting up this dynamic and showing this dynamic that I saw in a lot of my friends growing up, of like parents in poor communities being too hard on their kids, with the implied logic being like I needed toffen you up for the world, or you're going to end up just like me, which is kind of the message that's kind of Tanya's fear throughout the movie is that she's going to be exactly like her mom and be a waitress, which she is for a while, and it seems like and it's never explicitly stated, but my takeaway was that like Levana was basically like, I'm going to be really, really really hard on you to the point where it is illegal abusive. I'm gonna throw a knife at you, but the overarching thing to be like, I have to toughen you up because you're being set up to fail by the world, and that is like a parent child dynamic I've seen before, and I feel like I haven't seen a ton on screen, so I thought it was I mean, it was like scary, but like, I don't know it worked for me or if you do see it on screen, it's I feel like it's often not the main character. It will be like the main character's friend who who needs rescuing. Yeah. An example that comes to mind as the craft where sure right right, And I'm if I thought about it, I'm sure I could come up with others, but yeah, I don't know. Like, so there were certain moments with her. I was like, oh, that seems like my aunt or like my friend's mom of like some lines I wrote down where like you were soft nice makes you ship like basically these repeated enforcements like you have to be really tough on yourself and on everyone in your life or you're not going to survive um, which is you know, I see where she's coming from. I don't hard disagree with our approach to literally everything, but but I think the more common depiction in media over arch, Like there's so many FU movies about like rich children and their distant parents, not poor children, and they're overbearing to the point of abusive parents. But I think in the real world those are just as common. I mean, so there's I think it'll take me the whole episode to get through the recap, but essentially it just it follows Tanya and her figure skating career, starting from a very early age. She's a standout. She's very good, even if like she's a she's a stand up comic Harshly Season three, Tiny Harding story, the marvelous Mrs Harden. So she is great, she trains a ton, her mom does pay for all of her lessons, and is supportive in her pursuit of becoming a figure skater. But again, that's like kind of like another class commentary thing, where like I think we're like children of poor families often feel like they are an investment if they're doing anything extra, where like kids who are from wealthier backgrounds are able to try more extracurriculars and and there's less of like a pressure to be like, well, you better have fucking fun. Supportive in the sense that she was paying for it, that she was there, but also inflicting a whole lot of psychological warfare on Tanya. It was like it was basically a contract for abuse of Like, in order for you to do the thing that makes you happy, I have to be able to fucking be all out abusive to you at all times. And that's the only way she could keep doing it. Right. So we see Tanya's progress as a figure skater into her teens in early twenties, and this is also around the time that she meets Jeff Galuley. I don't know how old he is when they meet, but she's only fifteen and he's probably I think he's I think he's supposed to be nineteen or twenty. Well, that's upsetting. So they start dating and then he starts becoming abusive toward her as well, both physically and emotionally. Her career starts to take off. She starts winning a lot of competitions. She moves out of Lavana's home because she's had it up to here with her, so she moves out with Jeff. The abuse continues with him. Like she's winning national competitions and the Olympics are on the horizon and then she gets a death threat called on her, and so this is there was like a weird and this is all historical. It's not weird because it you know, happened, but like there's like, she goes to the Olympics and two she does not deliver. It's implied it's because she's like maybe like drinking too much and like got out of shape, which you know, is a little shamy, but also seemed like there was some truth in that and that was like had to do with why she which ties into her abusive relationship with Jeff. But she was in an abusive relationship and was not medicating exactly, like she didn't she didn't deliver at the first Olympics, which would normally be a death sentence because by the time the next one Olympics come around four years later, she would be, in theory too old, which is crazy. She would have been twenty five, but I guess an ice skater years too old. But then there's this thing that really happened where they're like, actually, I don't know what the rationalists, but they're like, we're going to have the Winter Olympics again in two years, which would be like perfect timing, and so there's kind of this there's a bunch of great montages in this movie again, just like a series of really stellar training montages that I really loved to having handed music. It was great. So she trains, she starts training again, and she's kind of like she got it back. She dumped Jeff. She's like on a tear. She's doing great, and then she takes Jeff back and then okay, right exactly, So she takes Jeff back because she's doing competitions and the judges are like, you're just not the image we want to project. We want a wholesome American family, and she's like, I don't have that. So she gets back with Jeff to basically placate the judges and be like, look look at this family I have because they get married at one point earlier in the story. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it's like to basically, yea project the image that they're going for. And then there's like this big competition and that if you place, I forget exactly what it's called. It's like, if you place in this competition, you are considered for the Olympic team. But if you don't place in the competition, you can't be considered for the Olympic team, so high stake ship. And prior to this, a death threat is called on Tanya and it freaks her out and they're like, oh crap, like this is going to ruin my chances. And then this is where you know the stories where Paul walter Hauser really starts to fucking shine. But he has this idea where basically Jeff wants to impress Tanya or somehow, like I think, honestly, like get her to be indebted to him a little more so she won't leave him, because that's how he thinks, because he's a manipulates, a manipulator, but he's so stupid that he's not even good at it. But so he's saying like, oh, it'll approve Chania chances if we call it a death threat on Nancy. And then Sean, who also called in the death threat Antania, we learned later and that's true. Sean has literally he's just so fucking like he was just smart enough to be extremely infuriating because he's like just smart enough to be like you should have known better. But whatever he's smarted, I don't like, is he Sean smarter than Jeff, but that's saying nothing. Jeff's literally dumb as a rock. So Sean's like, because I think that the movie goes way out of its way to be like toxic, toxic, toxic. This character, Sean, especially his toxic masculinity, is kind of uses a punch line over and over in this movie, which I hadn't seen it portrayed in other places. But I don't know. I thought it was funny, and I thought it's good to make toxic masculinity, you know, projected. It's like, you look like a fucking idiot. But so He's like, oh, we need to do something to Nancy, and Jeff said, okay, let's mail in letters snail, which is like, you're a snail mail a death threat. Incredible idea. Anyways, Sean takes matters into his own hands and plans the fucking whack that the whack hurt around the world, right, which is carried out by people who are somehow even stupider. It's just a well of stupidity that just a gaping mom of idiots, and how involved Tanny was in the planning and execution of these letter death threats. Question, you know, and I'm not even going to bother positing my own theories. We'll never know. We can hit on this later too, But like, I don't think Tanya Harding is like a good or nice person, and I don't think that she's like completely telling the truth. But I don't think that that makes her story any less valid or interesting or worth telling. But it's like I don't know, I mean, she it's it's clear that she knew about some portion of it. I think this movie plays it down press a little too much, but like we'll never know. Sure, So the attack on Nancy Kerrigan's knee happens, and then I think that the sequence of events is that Nancy obviously can't compete after she's whacked. At these trials. Tanya does really well at the trials places it looks like she's going to be on the Olympic team. The question is will Nancy be allowed to be on the Olympic team since she couldn't compete in the pre limbs And that part is like it makes sense that it's left out of this movie, but it is pretty like incredible how she completely I'm like crying, she like she like totally buckled down, did not pay attention to any of the media coming out and just like had her her like family and support system totally blackballed everyone who was like, she's training, she's getting better, and in six weeks went from like whacked me to like that recovery time was insane. It shouldn't have been like it is. Pretty I just don't think Nancy gets enough credit. I think she's also she's not as interesting historical figure as Tanya Harding, but she was pretty fucking cool. So because Nancy is able to do this amazing turnaround, she's allowed on the Olympic team. And also because and then I think that this is explicitly stated in the movie too, and has been said by Tanya Harding and interviews. It's like the media who's been like investing all this time and energy into this story, is not just going to be like, we're not gonna let Nancy compete like people wanted a huge event. Yeah yeah. And then the movie ends with they both compete in the Olympics, both Tanya Tanya and Nancy. Tanya does not place. Nancy Kerrigan gets the silver medal. Tanya's skating career is over also because she goes to court and the judge is like, you're never allowed to skate in any sort of competitions ever. Again, She's like pleading with the judge, please you have like, this is my whole life. This is the only thing I know want to do. I don't have an education. That was like the most impactful part of the entire movie for I did not see that. That was like I felt like one of the big successes of them because I knew that that was how the story ended, but it never really occurred to me exactly how devastating that was for her. Where that was like truly all she had. So if her involvement was as low as the movie would have you believe, that's horrible and it's like it does show how women are punished. Yeah, that was That was such a gut wrenching moment to watch of like that would be I was thinking, I was like, that would be like if someone told me that could never do stand up again. But then I was like, yeah, it's like would be the worst day. I would be like, you know what, I wouldn't cry. I wouldn't cry and offered to do jail time instead when the people are that's so fun. It was like I'd rather go to jail than not be able to go to an open like ever again open jail. So it doesn't. So then she becomes we see her like stint as a lady boxer. I have an autographed picture or of Tanya Harding during her boxing days. Yeah, I really, I'm deep into it. And I only say lady boxer because that's what she calls herself. She's just a boxer, ay for her. Yes, So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. There's a lot to digest here. There's a lot to discuss. One of the main points I wanted to bring up was the kind of ongoing theme she's talking about, how figure skating is this sport where like the judges want you to be this old timey version of what a woman is supposed to be, and her sort of recognition of how she was never going to be that because she didn't have the money to afford all the pretty costumes and she chopped wood every morning, so like she didn't have just sort of like a little delicate frame and everything like that. That was one thing that I thought could have been touched on a little more. I aggree with me that I was surprised it didn't because that is such a big that informed the direction of her career. So Mutch and I think that that was like why the people who liked Tiny Harding really liked her, because she, like, she was so athletically good that there was no you know, like even though she was not traditionally feminine and like had an athletic build, which makes fucking sense for an athlete, but you weren't supposed to uh, and didn't have a ton of money, but she was so good that people like could not deny her, you know, like that was cool, but it's we see we see it a few times. She gets into an argument with judges and says, I'm making my costumes, which is true, she was making. She had so many disadvantages, but they're just like, yeah, we're not really well we're looking for but you're so good that we can't tell you to go funk yourself until they found the first excuse to tell her to go funcker. And I think that that also directly ties into how she's treated. You know, she was characterized right away. It's like white trash who they were looking for an excuse to get rid of her, and the second they found one, they got rid of her forever. And not only her sort of like appearance and the way she presented herself physically. It was also like from what I gathered, like her music choices, you know, she did a lot of like hard rock and metal. She like wore the blue nail polish that her coach was like, no more of that. Like DAR say, she was a product of her fucking environment, you know, but that's not an environment that that sport respects, right exactly. So watching this, I mean I related to her because there's a part where she's talking about how she operates a forklift, chops wood and works at a hardware store and some like that, And I didn't read that exact same experience. But I grew up in a blue collar family, you know, working class. My dad had a forklift and a bacco. Part of my chores were to go into the woods and Sylvan because we lived in the middle of the woods. We would gone in the woods, we would gather firewood. I'd have to like load it onto this like wagon that was hooked up to the tractor. I had to drive the tractor like a farm girl. I'm not a well, I'm a wood's girl. We didn't have a far that we had a wood wood There's there's one. I had to fucking break leaves all the time. I had to mow grass all the time. I had to plow our driveway with a We had a pickup truck that my dad attached to snowplow too, So I had so many physical chores that I had to do all the time growing up, and I resented the hell out of it. Was like at school, I was like trying to be friends with like the popular kids whose parents were doctors and who didn't have to do like shovel dirt all the time. I was just like, please, no one find out about my home life. You know. I was kind of I was trying to fit in with like the quote unquote like what women are supposed to be and what you know, teen girls are supposed to be interested in and all that stuff. And I was just like like there was just like this whole internal struggle that I was like going through. But I also was like it's cool that I can like do all this stuff and like, but but that's not the message the world was sending you. No, no, no, no. At that time. I was city poor person, so we didn't do a ton of outside things. But like like a city mouse in a country mouse, we really are I forget what a country mouse to were, Like, I have no outdoor skills. But my first like full understanding of class in a meaningful way, it was. It was weird. I wasn't that aware of it growing up because everyone was poor and I'm kind of grateful for that, where there really wasn't. There was a class divide that I thought about a lot when I was watching Lady Bird of like there are people who had like more money than us that my parents would be like, Oh, just don't act like a fucking idiot around that. You know. There's little stuff like that. But I largely didn't become aware of my upbringing being poor until I was in college with a ton of rich Camerson richies. Yeah, and that was like that was like an upsetting experience where for my entire college experience I started out by like I had to work full time through college or I would have had to drop out. And for the first half I would not tell anybody, and I was like very embarrassed about it, you know, I would just be like I'm busy. I can't like go to whatever. But it's because I was working till three am at the scary pizza place run by a sexual predator. I called the police on but like but and then in the second half of college, I I'm really glad that I did. But it's like I just was like, you know what, rich people are actually trash and I'm working really hard and I don't want to be like it sucks enough having to work these awful jobs, so I'm not like hide the fact that I'm doing it on like whatever, I'm working harder than you. Fuck you. All I had to say is like she had so much exs stuff to have to do and she was still one of the best, that's so the best, and they still didn't want to give it to her and I and I totally get that. That is like, a that's fucking frustrating to be like, I am working against so much more than the average person and you're still not you still won't give it to me, which is a thing that I mean, this is Poised is more of a class struggle than a gender one in this movie, at least because we were only seeing women figure skaters in this movie. There are certainly gender specific things to talk about in this movie, but for her it was more of a class struggle thing. But I think it is still very much like a parallel situation where women have to work a lot harder to get recognition, to be taken seriously than their male counterparts a lot of the time. Right, and then just like every time you're in a marginalized group, and then you add another marginalization on top of that, right, it gets infinitely we call that intersection, yes, Queen. So I enjoyed that this movie at least posed this theme of like a woman, her background, her appearance, the way she presents herself, the way she talks, her tastes and things doesn't align with the quote unquote old timey version of what a woman is supposed to be. As for the judges of this sport, and how that was a struggle for her, and how she sort of had to like suppress who she was to be able to fit in, but also how she was kind of like unapologetically being like fuck, there's that scene where that's the best she tells the judges, like how am I going to get to her a chance? Like why do you hate me? So much, and they keep saying like we also judge on presentation, and then she says like suck my dick, and it's like like you're like, oh no, but you're also like that so cool, like and she really did that do just like so cool. I mean, yeah, I wish that that was dug into a little bit more, but I do love that she I mean, she had and it comes up a million times. The triple axel is like her secret weapon to be able to stay in skating because she was the only one that could do it. Yeah, the movie makes a point several times to say that she was the first woman to attempt and complete it and be really good at it, Like ever right, her secret weapons weapon. Um, Okay, we would be remiss to not talk about the two central abusive relationships in this movie, one between Tanya and her mother, the other between Tanya and Jeff. We touched on her mother already, but I did think it was like kind of a different, unusual And again, it's a biopics, so they are just sort of displaying real alleged events and interactions with them. But it was interesting seeing a relationship between two women where I think that like it's a trope basically where it's like the older character is going to bully their student, as it were, into greatness. Whiplash is that exact thing. There's a I mean that there's other I had some written down, but I feel like it's usually it's either between like a male coach and a male student, or it's between like a male coach and a female student, and it's a sexualized relationship, which we see in Black Swan. Another example of a male coach and a female student is A Million Dollar Baby. I don't think I don't remember that movie super well. I don't think there's any sexual component of their relationship. But at first he's like, I don't trying girls, and she's like, I'm the best though, I'm really good. He's like, okay, fine, I'm Clanniswood and or whatever, boring Clanniswood, fun clanny, but like yeah, but he like kind of you know, they develop a friendship, but it's like he a lot of that movie is him bullying her into getting really good. It's a dynamic we've seen a lot, I just we rarely see it between two men. And that is a component of Tanya and her mom's relationship, and it's abusive. I think it's like more of you see a more whiplet she kind of relationship. That was the closest parallel I could think of. There's a couple of different scenes where Levana just as like Tanya did her best when she was angry, and so we see Lavanna paying people to tell Tanya she sucks before she gets on the ice, like all this fucking sadistic, manipulative ship with the goal being in that way she'll do really good. And the other way that she would do that is by withholding praise at any cost. Where even when you know Tanya's landing triple actuals, doing stuff no one else can do, it's always well, this is what you did wrong. And Levana is abusive on so many different levels. It's just like, well, which do we pick. She is abusive on like a coachy kind of level, which is crazy because she can't fucking skate. But I think even more so than Tanya's actual coach Diane, who is not great and is very I think that she falls more in the bucket of like Tanya, you're not feminine enough, right, That's sort of the space she occupies. But Levana is like, you suck you're bad, and I'm going to tell you you're bad because that will make it good. And she gets enough results by doing that that she continues to do it and and it's bad. We sort of already touched on the class component of her abuse of like making it feel like Tanya owed her something, which is I think it's very common with kids in parents. Yeah, just like a kid feeling like an investment and like they have to do well because their parents are struggling in order for them to be able to do anything, which is an unfair pressure to put on a kid. I don't know. I mean, it is so complicated, the issue of class in America. If you can believe no one, that's a complicated thing. But they're is that element, there's also just the element of like Levana is a fucking bad person who wants everyone around her to suffer and and I'd be curious. I mean, we see very little of Tanya's dad in this movie. It seems like they had a good relationship and that he was kind of the beta to Levana's alpha, to the way where twenty says later in the movie, well you hit dad, was like, Oh she hit dad? Okay, that's you know, an unusual abuse dynamic, but it's it seemed Levana is framed in the movie as a character who, for a number of reasons that are explained, wants everyone around her to suffer. And Tanya certainly suffered, and and also Levana is completely aware that Jeff is abusive towards Tanya and does basically nothing to stop it. And and it really just makes that one comment in that scene they have together where she says, like, what I forget The exact wording is like, um, you're done piece of ship who thinks she'd deserves to get hit? Right where you know, we can get the subtypes of what she's saying, which is that you don't deserve to get hit, but she's leading with you're a dumb piece of ship, but also she's hitting Tanya exactly and then and then Tanya responds by being like, well, where did I get that idea? The implications of that are obviously like, oh, I think I deserve to get hit because you hit me my entire life. There's yeah, and there's no subtlety in the way that issues presented. Yeah, but that's like good. I don't think that there should be like shades of gray presented like should this be? But it is interesting to me And Jeff is the less fleshed out character of the two between him and LaVona, but it is interesting to see, I think as of right now, I feel like, ultimately it is an interesting and I think kind of impactful choice to characterize an abuser a little bit. And you know, Alice and Jenny, there is a part in the movie where she says, like, my mom was nice and nothing happened, you know, and like, and that's why, that's why I amounted to nothing. I think was the implication of like, nice parents in poor communities raise unremarkable children seems to be her belief and that is a moment that reveals so much about that character and who she is. And it's like, do we want to see a three dimensional depiction of an abuser? In some ways, it's like you don't really want to introduce so like I don't want to be able to empathize with this person. But real life abusers have motivations and have elements and probably you know, not every single thing they have done in their entire life is the worst thing ever. And that is something that you struggle with, and that's part of the reason why abusive relationships are so hard to get out of because people are in them and people, right, I think it's dangerous to depict an abuser in a way that we might be empathetic or sympathetic. It's hard to them. I think it is though important to present them as kind of like three dimensional people, because then we can kind of start to learn, Okay, why are you this way? Is there anything about you that can be helped and made to not be that way? Like? Because oftentimes, yeah, and abuser depicted in media is just like very one dimensional. They just are sort of like pure evil kind of thing, and we don't understand why they're that way, or if we do, it's, you know, be an interesting villain character, but it doesn't if the objective is to get people to recognize people like this who may exist in their own life, that is not the way to go, right, Yeah, So I think it's it was actually like pretty responsible in the movie's part to depict Levana the way that she was, because she is a fleshed out character, But the movie also doesn't absolve her of anything, which is important and I thought was also effectively do I think there was one moment where I was like, giving this abusive women laugh lines, oh right, especially that part where she it's like whenever Tanya and Jeff's relationship has kind of like taken off and we don't see a while, and she's like, my fucking storylines disappearing right about now, and we're all like big laugh line. It's like, I don't know, there's some shades of gray there that I'm not totally comfortable with. But by and large, how she's treated in the in the movie narrative wise, I thought was interesting. And if that's the choice they're making to have a three dimensional abuser, the movie doesn't absolve her. It's clear that what she's doing isn't the wrong, but it offers some insight into why that maybe, and I thought that was an interesting choice. We don't get that as much with Jeff. I don't particularly care. Another element of the abusive relationship that I thought was very interesting and ultimately pretty effective was Tanya is the abused in both of these relationships. She's on the receiving end with her mother from the second she emerges from the womb, and then you know, shortly after it seems like she and Jeff had like three weeks that were really pleasant and then seven or eight years that we're fucking nightmare. But I think that and I need to do more thinking on this, and I want to bring more effective examples to the table in the future. But I feel like in general, there is this media trend of when women are portrayed as being an abusive relationships on screen. And I think actually a recent example with be Nicole Kidman's character in Big Little Lies. She's abused by her husband pretty brutally in that show, but her character is presented as kind of a perfect character of like, here's this woman who works really hard, does all of her domestic chores, is basically bringing her husband his meal and he wax it out of her hand and hits her. That sort of thing where we are seeing a depiction of abuse that is like hard. I mean, it's very hard to watch, and and it is I'm sure realistic to some people's experience, But these flawless women in abusive relationships, I think it's kind of a media trend where it's like, and she never did a whole thing wrong in her entire life, how could this person abuse her? Whereas in Tanya's abusive relationships. Tanya is a very flawed character. She focks up a lot, and and there are examples of times where she focks up in ways that have nothing to do with Jeff, for her mother. She fox up independently like a person would. So again, it's just like showing real people in abusive relationships. There's examples of Yeah, like Tanya fox up a lot in this movie and in her life, and like, it couldn't be more clear that just because you don't even have to like her to recognize that she doesn't deserve this abuse. And I just thought that that was something that I really haven't seen that much of, Like especially a woman in an abusive relationship where she can be a funk up and she is doing stuff. She's not a perfect person and she's receiving abuse and she doesn't deserve that. Where Yeah, seeing a seeing a character like that just sort of drew my attention to how rare it is to see a flawed character receive abuse in a way that it's still very clear that it's like, Yeah, that was something I thought about a lot. You know, that's really interesting. I think that's a symptom of so many movies that do depict an abusive relationship. It's caricatures almost. It's a lot of like archetypes. It's you know, not real people who are the characters of the story. So they don't seem as fleshed out or they it's you know, you see the writer being well, I want to make my character this way and and to me in some crazy way that justifies or doesn't the abuse they receive sort of things. So they're just like these not real people who the storyteller designs in the way that they think is going to serve their story bests. And oftentimes, like you said, it is like the what's the show called, pretty Little Little, Pretty pretty much? Yeah, I like to call it the Laura Dernan and I patch our. I'm never going to know the difference between Pretty Little Liars and Big Little Lies, two amazing shows. It's all you need to know. So it often we do see you know, a very kind of like perfect, prim proper woman who doesn't really have any flaws is the victim of abuse. I think that that's almost like another way to justify writing a female character that's unrealistically passive. Yeah, yeah, where like the female character receiving abuse is not doing anything wrong in any area of her life and she's punished. But and I think the writers of stories like that are like, look how tragic this is. They're like, look how much she doesn't deserve this, Whereas I think like those same people would be like, oh, but if the character's flawed, it makes her somehow deserve it a little bit more. And that's obviously not the message that anyone should be sending. So yeah, I think it is really interesting that Tanya is depicted as a flawed character and that does not make her deserve abuse. Just that was like something that really struck me with this movie. Or it's like that is so cool that And also I think that, like I'm saying, it's trumpe writing, like the perfect woman who is abused is also just like lazy writing. Yeah, it's easier to not write a character that behaves like a human, but but in this, in this movie, I just that was like one of my favorite elements of it. That was cool. Not that I want to see abusive relationships on screen every second of my life, but that was I thought, like really effectively done. Yeah, And and they really they don't spare the audience in the way the abuse is depicted. I mean, it's it's it's hard to it's yeah, it's hard. Let's take another break and then we'll come back for a more discussion. But speaking of real people, which is what this movie is about. That brings me to something I wanted to talk about regarding biopics and how most biopics are about men. Some of them are tortured geniuses. Other ones are about fucking mediocre as Helmet, including The Disaster Artist and Edward. Throw a fucking stick and you'll hit a man who has somehow had a movie made about his unremarkable life. So few biopics are about women. I did some quick googling and found a list of about twenty or so that people have heard of. There's more of film history. Yeah. A few of the more notable ones include this one Aitania FRIEDA hidden figure is Elizabeth the Iron Lady. A lot of these are kind of recent to Jackie, Lena, Queen, Julie and Julianne. And there's also What's Love Got to Do with It? Selena Gia, Aaron Brockovich, Monster Monster, Anternet, propoliss Love, Vien Rose, The Passion of Jona Ark, which is a long time ago that was a coal miner's daughter. So there's only there's a small handful of biopics about women and every other I mean, and the biopics is such a massive genre. There are so many. Oh, just any loser can have a movie made about their life and they're they're a man, and often in the case of Steve Jobs, which oh my god, if you have not seen the Ashton Kutcher Jobs vehicle, I saw it on my twenty first birthday and it was it's truly so remarkably bad that you have to see it, you would be you're just if you don't watch Jobs and figure out what the rules to the drinking game is. It just the movie basically gives it to you. Like, but if Auschers in a field talking about computer, like, what is happening? There's a time where Acton Gutcher is having an argument through a beated curtain, You're just like, what is happening? Yes, you gotta watch it, but but if you if you look at the list of biopics about women, by and large, they're about white women by and large. They're about straight women by and large. They're about women who have had massive success that have led these amazing last from what I can pick out, you know, like they're mostly triumph tales, with the exception of Titania and Monster. Those are the two I can see on on this list that involves a woman failing. Right, pretty bleak, Yeah, pretty pretty weak. And one might argue that, oh, well, there aren't more biopics about women because there aren't more no figures in history, And well, I would argue, yeah, history is written by the victors, which are there men? Yeah, people named Victor, written by metal bitch named Victor, So there are plenty of And if it seems like there aren't more notable figures from history who are women, it's because they don't get talked about, they don't get written about. I've been written. Or if there are actually fewer, it's because women haven't been allowed to be fucking politicians until two seconds ago. It's because women weren't allowed to be any like so many things, leaders of any industry or even allowed in the industry can't wait for I RBG. The RBG movie is gonna be fucking tight. Also, there is sort of a weird trend in some of these biopics where it's like, and this is I think this is a biopic trend overall, but it is maybe because there's so few about women. It's like, come on, there is some that it's like and at the end she's murdered, where that's that is several on this list of like what made her life so remarkable was that she died in a gross sexy way, and you're just like, fuck, we come on, we got watch James Franco saw his leg off, and you can't have a movie about Ruth Bader Ginsburg grow up. There's movies about sucking civil like the Wrong Side of the Civil War, and there's biopics about Southern generals and the come on, what do you how many times is Leonardo DiCaprio going to play someone in the nineteen twenties Before I get my Ruth Bader Ginsberg movie, I'm now married to it. There there's not to say that there's not good biopics about men. There are, but the fact that there are so many male figures that have more than one biopic about them that is not a problem that the female equivalent has. You're not finding like God, which Steve John's biopics should I watch? You could? Literally there's three of them. There's three of them. Should I watch Lincoln or should I watch Young Mr Lincoln? And all of them? And this doesn't even include all the fucking stupid like History Channel documentaries blah blah blah, what or whatever like And I mean, if we just major release rainstream Hollywood biopics, if we go before n I mean, there's a million male biopics about the random ist men in existence, like a randomized video game character. They're like, we have to have a three hour epic about this amazing man's journey. ACTO. Just take this opportunity to say that Citizen Kane, which is loosely based on such a drag William Randolph Hurst, Yes, it is the worst movie I've ever seen. I hate Citizen Kane. Funk that movie. It's so fucking bother your sucking sled, get over it and suck off. I don't like Citizen King. I don't know. It's not that I don't think it's the worst babe of all time. I dated a guy who's really into Citizen Kane for a while, to the point where he tried to remake Citizens with with and you're exactly we're talking about with prop comedy oh, and it was halfway shot before someone told him it was a fucking terrible idea, which is like one of my favorite anecdotes of all time because I was I was complicit and being like everyone thought it was a bad idea. But people hate telling men that their idea is the worst idea of all time. And that's why so much mediocre mill art is out there because people love telling women their ideas are bad, but men they're like, yeah, remixt fucking idiot. Oh well a few other things. Yeah, I wanted to mention, we see what has become a trope of Oh I noticed the cal a woman being good at fixing cars as a way to show her is that I'm not like the other girls. But in this movie, yes, and there are examples of this where it doesn't feel tropy or it doesn't feel like it's a weird tact on trait to make her feel I'm not like one of the other girls. This is an example of a movie that does it well. But like Tanya walks up to Jeff, he's like fiddling around with his truck and she's like, oh, you gotta do this thing or blah blah blah, and she like reaches in and she also has braces. It's so cute. He's like, okay, um yeah, this scene and it's like, you don't know what to do. She's just like he's the part where and you and you know, like if you didn't know he was about to become a historically notorious piece of ship. That story beat when the very heavy handed Romeo and Juliet begins to play, when he's like so pretty yeah, and she's like no, I'm not, you're and you're just like kiss and then end of the movie and then break up immediately. But that was a nice moment. But yeah, no, I totally believe that she was good at fixing cars, just based on her background, but the fact that they show it, yeah, yeah, because it happens again in a in an episode that we've either just done or is about to come out as Josie and the Pussycats, where it's like that one, Hey, that one doesn't make sense in the context of the story. No, not at all, Like why but Alan Cumming does give a break the fourth wall glanced at the camera at one point in the movie, and I can't a wait to record that episode. I'm gonna explad like and it's to a meat low song. It's like that was designed with me in mind. I can't even believe anyway, okay, I'm shifting like I'm getting okay, But but that's going off of the fact that that trope. I would agree that trope is present because that was intentionally shown. But a wait, this movie, it would have been very easy. I wonder if the director of photography for this movie was a man or a woman. I don't know. This movie is directed and written by a man, which I was surprised at two different Yeah, but this movie, I mean a movie about figure skaters in general, it would have been a very easy choice to sexualize the way the movie is shot, and it's not shot that way at all. And when you see figure skating scenes, you're looking at either Tanya's face to communicate how she's feeling about herself, or you're seeing the athletic focus you see like the triple actual a million times. So I thought that was really al wostly impressive because that's just how it should be. But I agree, yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what it should default too. And yet so many movies and it's shot in such a way where it's Hey, we're shooting this with the male gaze cameras, which has magnets that are just on the German right. And and the and the way that I mean skaters were sexualized in this time would have made it a very easy, cheap choice. And they don't make that choice in a cinematography by Nicholas know that last name, but I'm gonna try Karro Kansas Arts US film Editing by Tatiana Tatiana Regal. Yeah, she eded large and the real girl I just learned anyways, I hope she I I genuinely just based on I haven't seen all the Oscar front Runners, but this was like the best editing I saw in any It was shot, very well, edited, very Yes, it is a terrific movie. It is so good. I mean, not as good as Paddington too, but I mean I wanted to talk really quickly about the role of toxic masculinity in this story as it pertains to Jeff. I think we've we've already sort of covered that relationship a little bit. We don't get to know Jeff very well in this movie, and that doesn't bother me, but of the two abusers, we know Jeff far less well, but what we know about Jeff that when Tanya doesn't behave the way he wants, he hits her and he you know, it's a pretty cut and dry dynamic, and we see that over and over and over. But the moment in the relationship where and they both acknowledged this in interviews, and I thought the way it was portrayed, like there's that moment where they're like after the triple axle, everything changed where to me, that indicated a shift in the power dynamic of like when Tanya basically was just growing more confident in her abilities and ability to succeed, their relationship worsens. And to me, I felt like that was a response to a man not feeling in control of the relationship any Yeah, feeling inadequate or like, oh, this woman is more successful than me, she's better than me. And because he doesn't really have he doesn't have he's a job, but he doesn't have special skills the way that Tanya do is right, And so we see examples of like he's very on paper, would appear to be supportive in that he is present, he's there, but he you see him taking credit a lot for stuff, and you see him repeatedly asking to be noticed and appreciated for you know, it's not wrong to want to be appreciated, but it's absolutely wrong to hit your wife. So, you know, I think I think that it's it wasn't a brand of toxic masculinity that we haven't seen displayed, but I thought it was whatever effectively presented, especially for a character we don't know that much about in terms of his background. We know that he's poor. He says a little bit about himself, but that's basically you know, Sean. I think it's a more interesting case study here, and I love I want to be his best friend. Sean is a different kind. It reminds me of that pop culture detective essay about like the toxic masculinity of like nerdy guys of how sort of for years and movies like Weird Science, where it's like the nerds will rise up and fuck every woman where. You know, it's presented that narrative of like nerds don't get to have sex with girls, and what a massive travesty, and they should be allowed to enact. They should allowed to be just a shitty women as popular guys. I just watched sixteen Candles last night for the first time, you won't get But my God, is not the worst movie I've ever seen. I think we should do it. We should done special because it's despicable. But presenting toxic masculinity as a punch line was like another very deliberate choice this movie makes that I thought worked really well. There were some moments where I was like, he's doing violent, terrible stuff, but by and large, I think presenting that character as a fucking joke. Who literally, I mean, he's he's speaking in like pretty broad strokes of like I never do anything wrong, cut to like him doing something wrong. That was another great follow that when he's in the back of the car, he's like, they'll never break me, cut to a montage of him just bragging about Nancy care Think, yeah, that was me and my crew, and it's like and also he lies like five dys like I got page sixty dollars, Like did it were you talking about? It? Was just like it was, Oh God. I mean I think that that the way that character is presented was really interesting choice that maybe won't work for everyone, but I thought it was a way that we don't see toxic masculinity displayed a lot that can be effective. True, Yeah, I agree to. Another couple of things I wanted to point out about her abusive relationship with Jeff is that at one point, you know, she says, you know, I thought it was my fault that he was hitting me. Then I just thought it was interesting just to have it be pointed out, because that's such a common thing for abuse victims to feel, because their abuser is often also extremely manipulating and makes them feel as though it is their fault. And the fact that it even gets said I thought was important. Moments like that, like this is weird to say about. I wish that this movie had come out when I was a teenager because there's so much presented here that is presented really explicitly and directly, even when they're like painful truths to be very direct about. But I'm excited for like young girls who are seeing in this movie and and can hear these messages stated so clearly, like that's awesome. Another good message that I think the movie sends is it starts with you see like a tiny, tiny scene of her stepbrother, creepy Chris's this guy was living with me at the time, and I remember my first date with Jeff because I had my my creepy stepbrother arrested that day because you see a scene where he comes up and gropes her and like fondles her breast, and then she blings him down and calls the cops on him and like has him basically arrested and kicked out of the house. And then there's a number of other times in the movie where she calls the cops on Jeff and nothing is and has restraining orders violent and against him. He often violates them. They even get divorced because they get married and then divorced, but she takes them back after that. When you shoots her, he shoots her co a cop pulls them over, pretending to her bloody face. Yeah. And then and then while he's kind of talking his way out of it in the background with a cop, you see another scene where Tany is directly addressing the camera seeing like you can talk this way and anything. The cop has left me there like it was I mean, yeah, how women are disserviced when you can't make the argument that she didn't try to get out. She did. She did, but you know the abuse cycle. It's Yeah, the last thing I wanted to talk about was the media aspect of it, which feels especially relevant right now. Of a lot of the reason this story unfolded the way it was was four ratings and four you know, there is that side of it, But ultimately it was that people just didn't believe Dan yet, Like they did not believe what she was saying. I think this movie makes a really great point of like her whole life, no one believed her, even when she was saying over and over like this is the abusive relationship I'm in. This is how my class is getting in the way of me achieving my goals. Say what Juel about her? She's a very direct character for in person, and and she's just kind of shoved aside, and reasons are found to dismiss her, and sometimes even including like the fact that she's very direct is used as a reason to discredit her. It's like you're too blunt, like we it's trashy, did not classy, right, And the ultimate message being that, like people just didn't believe what she was saying. And there was a lot of ways that people were biased and prejudiced against her that informed that reaction. You know, like there's a lot there's certainly a lot of gray area in this story, but that she was done a huge disservice by the media that ended up robbing her of a career, that it seemed like people always wanted to rob her up anyways. Yeah, um it just yeah. There's a line that she says in the movie. She's talking about Nancy Karrigan, and she says, the press wanted Nancy to be the princess and I to be the pile of crap to sell papers. So basically they had decided even though they came from similar economic backgrounds Nancy and Tanya, which is the movie should have said, I should have said, but because Nancy was maybe not his crass and maybe a little bit more refined in her appearance, and the press just held onto that and we're like, yeah, Tanya is white trash, forklift driving welder lady who was like gross and her competitor. Of course they were. Well, the thing is like that sucks, is like Nancy was from a similar background, but she just she was willing to play ball, as it were, by not really saying anything about her background. She was very like old interviews with her, they're just you know, in the way that you see a lot of teenagers who come to prominence and stay there. She's not really saying that much. She's saying like she's thanking people. She you know, she's not stating her opinions as much as Tanya is. And I think that, like there is a big element of like people wanting her to apologize for something that she she she's an unapologetic person and people did not like that, and I it's I mean, we've hit on this before, just like an unapologetic man Sky is the limit for those types of characters, and a lot of biopics that is like the center of it. Like he never apologized for doing what he thought was right, and that's what we see Tanya doing. And you know, you can see the real historical result is that her life was ruined because she wasn't willing to play ball and was unapologetic about who she was. I don't know if this is an appropriate parallel to draw, but remember when Mike Tyson bid off someone's ear and everyone's like, oh, Mike Tyson, Oh this slap on the wrist. But actually you can still be in the public eye and you're like, what a silly guy, and did it? And I think that ties back to the femininity issue of like the sports she was in it, just like she wasn't supposed to be tough and that sports she's supposed to be traditionally feminine, and there was no wage room. But then also just the way that like the press and media treated both cases, where like Tanya was to some degree involved in violence against Nancy Karragan and Mike Tyson was no doubt involved with violence around there's an apanage of it by fighting his ear off, but he got some ship for a while, I remember. But now, like Mike Tyson, you can see him in movies like he's still check out, Please God, don't watch the overr but like exactly like huge, he's still a person that people. Yeah, and often he's the butt of a joke, but the fact that he's still But honestly, that was then I ended. I'd argue that ultimately that was a boon to his career. Yeah, whereas with Tanya it was easier to villainize her because of the patriarchy, that little shifty patriarchy. Back again, he thought we got it last time, recommended viewing for people who enjoyed Itonia first of all, watched the documentary it's made by I forget what her name is, but a really great documentary. And also I think it is relevant that the source material for this movie was curated and presented by a female filmmaker, really really, really good. And then follow up, I would watch the Netflix documentary about Amanda Knox, where you'll find a similar story of I mean, there's no limit to the stories of women being victimized in media. That's why our Shall exists. But in terms of like real life stuff, Amanda Knox the I mean the story being that she was accused of murder when it was clear very early on that she did not do it and it was done by someone else who admitted to it. But for years it was like did she do it? And was pushed by the media. And I think that this movie pulls from that a little bit because there's that shitty media guy that we see in the talking heads over and over who's like he and I popped her tires like the that seemed like almost directly pulled from There's like this British tabloid journalist in the Amanda Knox documentary who couldn't be more thrilled with himself for ruining her life and I just want to shoot him. But recommended viewing. Hey does this movie about the bachtel Pst. I wonder it certainly does. For sure. You've got Livona and the coach talking, You've got Tanya and the coach talking. You've got Lavanna and Tanya talking to each other. You've got we didn't talk about this character, but Tanya fires Diane her first coach, and then hire someone named Dottie or something. And then when she sucks up the ninety two Olympics, Diana ends up coming back with that great scene at the diner where Time was like, well, I'm just like my mom. I'm a waitress, I'm poor, I'm out of shape, and the good news is I also am on skilled. It's like that was fun. That was fun. But yeah, I mean the movie passes dozens of times. It's not even worth counting how many, because it knows this movie is from moment when women take up the screen for the majority of the movie, and again it is worth saying, it's white women again. Tricky, it's a biopic. Tricky. We're in Oregon for most of the movie, but worth staying. Oregon, which was founded as a white supremacy state. If you didn't know, I didn't know. Horrible. Yeah, I wouldn't even let black people live there until sometime in the nineteen twenties. I want to say, well, that explains, and it was like a white state. It was found like this is going to be a white haven for any white people who want to live here and not be around any people. Not know that. That makes sense of every place I've ever seen an Oregon well, very white, fucked up man. She'll be right the movie. Yes, I'm going to give it a five nipple. I think I think I am to No, No, I'm gonna give it four because and I know it's about Atonia Harding. But I do think that Nancy was robbed, was was villainized. She was Margo Robbie. I think she was, and I understand why this choice was made, but I don't like it. She was villainized in this story that she was not. She couldn't be less of a villain or even a willing participant in I thought that there were several small opportunities to flesh her out a little bit, but the movie shows no interest in giving Nancy's character any to mention, which I that really did bother me. However, every other woman we see on screen is flawed, has motivation just I don't know, just like a lot of human women are shown in this movie and are shown together and are shown in conflict, are shown not in conflict. There's actually kind of everyone in this movie is in conflict at all times, regardless of gender, pretty much without exception, down to the fucking we didn't talk about this where we think we're getting a reconciliation scene with Tanya and her mom and they're like, nope, she's being paid by someone to get to admit she did something that she may not have actually done. Amazing, but yeah, I mean, I think that this movie is terrific. I just wish justice for Nancy. Baby. Nancy, to her credit slash to my low key fury, still to this day, has no interest in talking about it. They're like, have you seen Titania. She's like, nope, she will not talk about it. She has no interest. I mean, is weird because Nancy Kerrigan ended up kind of making a killing off of this incident, although obviously she was not. Again, she's not a willing participant in this, but she did make that amazing comeback and then off of that amazing comeback, she one second place made a face, which I'm just like, that's the only time we've seen Nancy Kerrigan behave human is that because she was so like conscious and perfect and then when she was just like kind of There is like a great clip when Nancy Kergan gets the silver medal in the Olympics where the girl who wins it was like a Russian girl is like taking a while to get off the ice because she's crying so much, and Nancy is just like, there's like a clip of Nancy kirk and be like, why are we gonna just We're just gonna keep filming her crying. I was like, okay, fine, she's a person, you know. In fact, I like that. First of all, I make faces all the time. I always have a scowl on my face. So and also that's basically telling telling a woman to smile smiling when he smiled. She lost, after all, she there like she frowned. But but the movie cast her as in I mean, Tanya cast her is in the wrong for doing that, and the movie makes no commentary. And the fact that that is probably a little petty of her, because you know, Nancy Anyways, clearly I'm a Nancy stand I love her, I love Tanya too, I love this movie. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with my five just because I don't have the same emotional attachment to Nancy Carrigan as you do. So I just thought it was great that we what feels like because they actually are real people depicted, because other biopics will be about a historical figure and totally glass over them and make them not that Tom Hanks movie about Walt Disney. Also that Tom Hanks biopics are fucking problematic. Charlie Wilson's War is an atrocity to nature. Charlie Wilson was like a senator I'm pretty sure who. Literally the whole movie is like he's a using women and it's sucking cool. Tom Hanks. Some biopics no more the post funk off. Well. An example I saw recently was the Greatest Showman, which is the worst movie I've ever seen. I did go to see it because zac Efron is in it, and that's my cross to bear, but that movie totally glossed over all the horrible ship P. T. Barnum did in his life and does not depict him as an interesting or compelling or multidimensional character the way that Ionia does. So, I Tany was very responsible in presenting these characters, flawed as they may be, as dynamic, multidimensional characters and people, and exploring things that movies don't often if they do explore, they don't go into enough depth about or make any real statement about, which is you know, class struggles and abuse and the media's portrayal of women and things like that. So it tackles a lot. It tackles a lot, and I think it does it all for the most part, pretty responsibly. And on top of that, it's just, you know, a woman's story. It's a woman driving this story. It's a fun movie. It's good because there is kind of like sometimes a tendency of even in movies that farewell with the Beachtel tests, in portrayal of women of like, yeah, we're seeing strong female characters, but we're not seeing a strong, flawed female characters, and that's something this movie does very well. Yes indeed, so yeah, I give it a five nipple and my nipples go to I think that Sean Eckart has eight nipples. You think it's a cat he's a cat. How great would it have been if Alfred Willina was in this movie? I gonna say there's not really any older male parts in this movie though, so it might have been impossible. And also how amazing is it that there's no older male parts in this movie? Um? So ali from Willina? Unfortunately, I think, I mean he's a feminist icon. He posted a first trap along with a caption that's like donate to Times up and it's like, um, what bitch, But like I love it, You're get So you're giving Sean Akhart five nipples? Nipples, I'll give him two of mine, which brings up his count to seven. So maybe he's just like he's got like a spare time. Because I love I can't wait to see Paul Walter Hauser in every movie that comes up from now on. I literally can't wait to be tired of him. Um, and am giving my other two nipples to Nancy? Sorry? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, And I also think that I look more like Nancy Kerrigan than the girl who played her in the movie. I'm just throwing it out. So like all the casting agents were patrons on are you can't wait to play Nancy? Karrigan. Well, that was the episode, folks, thanks for listening. I had given the I didn't remember this, but I had given the movie five nipples, um and and Jamie you had given it four. I think I wouldn't necessarily give it five if we like to backpedaling on her nipple writing again, Caitlin backpedal, Durante strikes again. I don't know. Maybe I would still give it. I might. I might even scored a little lower. I don't know, maybe it would still be around of four for me. I think I think I would drop it down to like a four point five. For the reasons that you cited in the episode. I was just too I was too gung ho about it. I guess I was just like Ed had just come out and we were all excited. We were like Alice and Janny's gonna win that Oscar and then she did. So yeah, I feel like, oh, and I was a final note that I think in the two and a half years since, this movie has kind of slipped out of the zeitgeist in a way. I do not like. I feel like people don't talk about Titania really at all, and I feel like it's it's you and dummy A did Jewey bay or the only people talking about Titania and we need to fix that. Me and Demi's thread is pretty much all about Itoni, like it's just like watching it again, Like it's just we're both watching it a lot. He and I have a similar text thread about Paddington's, so that makes sense. Demi is that friend because he's a man of passion. Um. But I would encourage you if you like Titania, tell someone who hasn't. It's on Hulu. For crying out loud, It's not hard to watch Titania. It's so accessible. Just bring it to your friends, bring it to your loved ones. They deserve it. Okay, that's I'm getting off my subbox. Also, Jamie, I can't believe we went through that entire episode and you never mentioned anything about Zamboni's which is I mean, that is for a reason one of my one of my only notes, not a Zamboni in the whole movie, not a damn Zamboni, which is first of all, erasure, Bodi Erasure, there's for sure. And like Tanya heart thing is like she's like a working class hero. She would be talking to the Zamboni drivers she would be forging lifelong friendships to the zamboni drivers. I bet she knows how to drive a zamboni and like everything. Now I want to just quote the whole movie again. She does chop on every day, she does drive the zamboni every day. Yeah, that would be. I mean, that would just be if this were a fictional story. They're like, well, yeah, Tanya pays for her lessons by driving the zamboni, which is something that I would do for anything for free. Oh sure. Like to refer to a recent episode on The Cheetah Girls when the one character works at the community center to pay for her for her dance lessons, it could be just like that. That's a very common way to get children to do labor they shouldn't necessarily be doing. Um was my I did the same thing for dance classes in in uh in high school. They're like, oh, to help teach the little kids. And then we'll look the other way, and you're like, look the other way, I'm doing a job. Anyways, Titon your rocks. She should have been on a zamboni. Also, I've written a zamboni and we seen. Um. Well, thanks for listening everyone, Um you can follow us on social media at Specto Cast on Twitter and Instagram. Really be sure to follow those accounts because that's where we post, you know, certain events that we have. Maybe you were maybe you were hanging out on our Titanic live stream last week. We're hoping to do more of those. So just stay in touch, don't be a stranger. You can join our the The episode you heard unlocked today was from our patreon a k a. Matreon where for five dollars a month you can get to bonus episodes a month, as well as access to our back catalog, which is over seventy episodes I think at this point. Um, so there's just if you're running low on main feet, it's a great place to go. And it's also a great commune any You can get our march at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast. There's just options upon options upon options of ways for you to form paras social relationships with us. You should, um make an Itonia design for okay, don't tend to be Also, I wanted to pitch this go for it a crossover of Ionia and I Frankenstein. What if they exist in the same universe. We should honestly, I now I'm like, should I change my other birthday? Patreon episode two I Frankenstein? Honestly, something good thin I fregate side is there was two perfect movies combined. It couldn't be done. Oh god, I love I freak it said so much like the scene where he's on top of the mountain and he's just swinging around nun chucks, but there's no when there. I love it. I simply don't remember. I think I've seen it, but I don't remember anything about it. Aaron Eckhart really wishes that you didn't remember anything about it. I would I would gladly record a bonus episode on it, though, if that was your birthday wish. Maybe that's the move about to make my wishes come true. All right, Well, thanks again everyone, and we'll see you next week. Bye.