326 | Setting Up for Success: HTP Assessments and the Glue Dilemma in CCPT

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are discussing a question,

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actually two questions from Mara in North Carolina.

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And

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one is about house true person and one is about

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the use of consumables in the playroom,

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a la glue and paint.

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So

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different topics,

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but both helpful questions,

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so I'm looking forward to diving into those.

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Before we get there,

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just wanted to say a couple things.

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First of all,

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it is officially August.

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So happy August,

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the 8th month of the year.

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We're

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right in the middle of 3rd quarter.

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So this year is flying by and

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my grandma,

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who is no longer with us,

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but was my absolute favorite person on this whole earth,

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she was born in August and my great grandmother was born in August,

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so very special month to me

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and

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the birth stone for August,

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I have quite a few pieces of jewelry to honor them.

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So for all of you born in August,

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happy birthday,

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and it's one of my favorite months to honor two very special ladies in my life.

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All right,

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let's dive into

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this question

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first,

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the house tree person question,

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and then we'll move into

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glue and paint and other things like that in just a second.

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So let me read parts of this and then we'll process together.

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This kid had no response to my attempt at the house tree person assessment.

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Since it was the first day,

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I did not know why.

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I've since learned that he doesn't have the skills to

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draw any of those things since he is barely 4.

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Do you just skip the house tree person assessment for young kids?

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I'm so glad you brought this up because

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this is something that I don't think that I've made very clear,

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and I,

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I remind people in coaching a lot.

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But I don't think I've said it a whole lot on the podcast,

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so

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we

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need to be aware that the house tree person and

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kinetic family drawing assessments are meant for 5 and Up.

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In other words,

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they have been

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tested

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on children 5 and up.

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However,

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5 is iffy,

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and here's what I mean by that.

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If it's a young 5

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or a developmentally delayed 5

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or an emotionally immature 5.

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They might not be suited for

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those drawings.

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So just because the child is 5,

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that's not a guarantee that it's an appropriate fit for them.

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So 6 is pretty safe.

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6 and up is is standard.

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You can pretty much guarantee that a child at 6 is capable of doing so.

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5 is unknown and anything under 5,

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we do not do that assessment with really young kids.

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And it's just exactly what you mentioned,

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they're often not capable of drawing those types of things.

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And

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it's pretty standard that when kids start kindergarten,

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they draw in class and they learn how to put

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shapes together to create objects and things like that.

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So once we get into that 5 older 5 range,

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it's usually safe,

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but

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you need to just be really in tune to where the child is.

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And if you get a sense that it might not be the good fit,

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you can just bypass that altogether.

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And

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related aside,

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if you're not familiar with House tree person or kinetic family drawing,

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It is the only thing that we do at our center in the way of any kind of assessment,

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and it's just 4 drawings,

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so they draw a house,

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they draw a tree,

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they draw a person,

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they draw a picture of their family doing something together

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and then there are some questions that they answer about the drawings and it's

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a chance for us to get to know where the child is on week one

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and then we're able to provide some insight

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to parents at the 1st 5 week consultation.

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So if you're not at all familiar with that,

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you can certainly take a peek at the research

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and you can learn a little bit more about it.

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I've been doing it since I started doing

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CCPT.

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I learned about how tree person in grad school and I

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just started very early on implementing that and I love it,

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and I think that it provides so much insight.

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It kind of gives you like a little Polaroid of where the child

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is before you even get to know them on that first week.

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OK,

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and then let's dive into the next question,

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which is about glue and paint.

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Another thing I've noticed is use of glue and paint.

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It seems like less of a therapeutic need

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to pour glue on the paper and more that he just has no idea how much he needs.

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I'm working on letting this go

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do you have

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some things you remove from your playroom for the little ones,

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and then in parentheses,

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I took my stapler out.

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Well,

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this is a multi-layered question,

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Mara,

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so let's look at each one separately.

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First and foremost,

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we do not

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remove anything from a playroom or add anything to

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a playroom based on age of the child.

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And if you find that you are doing that,

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that likely means that your playroom is not equipped

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according to CCPT guidelines.

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In other words,

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if you have things in there that would not be safe for a young child,

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that's not adherent to the model.

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If you have things that you feel are

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too

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costly or too concerning or too dangerous or whatever,

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then then there's a reason why

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you're taking those out.

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They shouldn't be in there in the first place.

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We do not ever have staplers in our playroom unless they're the really tiny small

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kiddy ones,

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like the ones that a child can fit in their hand.

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We don't have full big metal staplers in our playrooms.

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We do have scissors,

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but they are child scissors.

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We have

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small hole punchers,

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we have small staplers,

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we have tape dispensers,

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so you can have items like that,

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but be mindful,

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we don't take things in and out.

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So it's either in there all the time or it's never in there.

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We don't make adjustments according to which child happens

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to be in the playroom at any given moment.

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So that's addressing that.

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You're working on letting this go.

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All right.

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You and everyone else.

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So I'm glad you brought this up,

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Mara.

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We talk about this a lot on coaching and Collective calls.

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If you choose,

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I'm not trying to be funny,

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I'm being I'm being very accurate here,

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if you choose to have consumable items in your playroom,

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such as glue,

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paint,

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tape,

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construction paper,

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pipe cleaners,

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stickers,

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pom poms.

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Sequins,

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God forbid,

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pearler beads.

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I,

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I don't even know.

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I,

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this is not my jam,

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so I don't have any of this stuff,

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most of it,

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but

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whatever you have that can be used and therefore,

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it's not going to be static.

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In other words,

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Legos,

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they stay in the playroom.

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We're not replacing Legos.

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Darts,

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they get broken sometimes,

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but they stay in the playroom.

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We're not replacing darts.

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If a child uses 8 pieces of construction paper,

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if they use entire bottles of paint,

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if they dump out an entire container of glue,

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if they use an entire spool of tape,

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all of that consumable usable kind of,

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it's usually art and craft supplies and materials,

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that's kind of the category under which it falls,

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the creative artistic side of it.

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So when you have that kind of stuff in your playroom,

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if you choose

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to have that in your playroom,

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You choose to be OK with how it gets used.

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And or you pre-portion before every kid and every session.

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So here are your two options.

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You either let it go,

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as you mentioned,

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and you just have to say

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these are the tools kids need to do this,

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this is valuable significant therapeutic work.

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If they dump the entire bottle of glue,

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they dump the entire bottle of glue.

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I'll put a new one in here tomorrow.

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That's one option.

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The other option is

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I can't unconditionally accept this child.

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I can't allow this to behavior and maintain my acceptance.

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I

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don't have the funds to constantly be replacing all of this stuff.

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I have 4 other kids today,

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and if this kid uses all my glue,

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then no one else will have glue today.

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If any of those are considerations for you,

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then you can

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allocate a certain amount ahead of every session

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as part of your prep for the session.

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So you could put 3 pieces of construction paper,

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pre-portioned amounts of glue

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in Dixie cup,

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pre-portioned amounts of paint in Dixie cups,

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a certain amount of pipe cleaners,

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a certain amount of pom-poms,

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whatever you would set aside,

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it would be the same every single time for every single kid.

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Now mind you,

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not every kid's going to use those things,

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so you may set that up at the start of the day and it

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might be the 4th session before a kid even touches any of that stuff.

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So you're not necessarily restocking and replacing at the start of every session,

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but any session in which those items get used

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and taken home or thrown away or cut up into confetti or whatever,

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then you're going to replace what was used

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so that every child has the same pre-portioned amount.

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That's the way that you handle that kind of object in the

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playroom because if you are going to have it in there,

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you have to be OK with it being used.

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If not,

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you have to have it preplanned out and every child

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gets a certain amount and then when that is gone,

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it's gone for the day and then they'll get new versions of it the next time.

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So that's kind of the way that you can navigate that and then as far as him

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pouring glue on the paper,

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not knowing how much he needs versus that he needs to actually pour,

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you will have both.

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Sometimes kids

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just need to dump

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and pour

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and glug and glob and have it drip and

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have it run and have it go absolutely everywhere.

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And then sometimes they just

271
00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,210
are not capable of knowing how much they need

272
00:09:55,530 --> 00:09:55,919
and

273
00:09:56,049 --> 00:09:57,549
it comes dumping out and they go,

274
00:09:57,719 --> 00:09:57,969
wow,

275
00:09:58,049 --> 00:09:58,880
that was a lot,

276
00:09:59,049 --> 00:10:00,760
but they've still used half the bottle

277
00:10:00,929 --> 00:10:02,000
and it wasn't on purpose,

278
00:10:02,039 --> 00:10:05,320
it was just the way that the circumstance stances unfolded.

279
00:10:05,650 --> 00:10:07,919
So you'll have both types of those kids,

280
00:10:08,609 --> 00:10:10,359
but in either scenario.

281
00:10:10,849 --> 00:10:13,440
You're either going to just accept it for what it is,

282
00:10:13,809 --> 00:10:16,809
or you're going to make a policy moving forward

283
00:10:16,809 --> 00:10:19,960
that every kid gets a certain amount and neither is

284
00:10:20,330 --> 00:10:21,419
better or worse.

285
00:10:21,650 --> 00:10:24,200
It's just for each individual therapist for me,

286
00:10:24,609 --> 00:10:26,450
I do not have liquid glue.

287
00:10:26,489 --> 00:10:27,530
I have glue sticks.

288
00:10:27,609 --> 00:10:28,890
I do not have liquid paint.

289
00:10:28,929 --> 00:10:30,359
I have watercolor paint.

290
00:10:30,729 --> 00:10:32,219
I have one roll of tape,

291
00:10:32,289 --> 00:10:37,210
but I have found that kids like masking tape far better than they like

292
00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:38,330
clear tape.

293
00:10:38,890 --> 00:10:43,229
So we kind of switched midstream to not really necessarily having

294
00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:44,219
clear

295
00:10:44,450 --> 00:10:45,359
Scotch tape,

296
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,400
and we either have washy tape,

297
00:10:47,450 --> 00:10:49,039
we have masking tape,

298
00:10:49,130 --> 00:10:51,289
or I found this really cool roll of tape.

299
00:10:51,330 --> 00:10:52,890
I got several rolls of it.

300
00:10:53,169 --> 00:10:55,489
Oriental trading had them on like crazy clearance,

301
00:10:55,510 --> 00:10:56,960
like 90% off or something,

302
00:10:57,250 --> 00:10:59,599
and it was essentially caution tape,

303
00:10:59,729 --> 00:11:01,960
so it was yellow with black writing on it,

304
00:11:02,530 --> 00:11:03,530
but it was sticky.

305
00:11:04,169 --> 00:11:06,159
And I don't remember what it said.

306
00:11:06,169 --> 00:11:07,130
It didn't say caution.

307
00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:09,400
I wanna say maybe it said fragile or something.

308
00:11:09,609 --> 00:11:09,929
But anyway,

309
00:11:10,070 --> 00:11:13,849
I got a whole bunch of rolls of those and kids strung that tape all across

310
00:11:13,849 --> 00:11:17,359
my room from the bobo to the shelves to themselves to the chair to the whatever,

311
00:11:17,809 --> 00:11:19,049
and that was a lot of fun.

312
00:11:19,169 --> 00:11:21,200
So kids do like tape,

313
00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:21,929
but again,

314
00:11:22,049 --> 00:11:24,559
it's usually not to tape a few things together.

315
00:11:24,729 --> 00:11:27,359
It's usually to stretch it all over the place,

316
00:11:27,530 --> 00:11:28,349
make a spider web,

317
00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:29,530
make a laser maze,

318
00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:30,090
make a,

319
00:11:30,369 --> 00:11:31,679
a fort,

320
00:11:31,770 --> 00:11:32,359
make a trap,

321
00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:33,020
make whatever.

322
00:11:33,130 --> 00:11:33,409
So.

323
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,030
If it's in there,

324
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:36,890
it's for use

325
00:11:37,359 --> 00:11:40,750
and we need to be very intentional about setting the room up

326
00:11:40,750 --> 00:11:43,510
for success for us and for the child and for the model.

327
00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:45,590
If you choose to put something in there,

328
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,429
it can't get under your skin when it gets used.

329
00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:50,359
It can't have you sitting there going,

330
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:50,919
oh my gosh,

331
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,440
that was like $8 worth of tape,

332
00:11:52,479 --> 00:11:54,960
and now it's literally spread off and I'm gonna take that down and I'm

333
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,469
gonna throw it all away and no kid's gonna get to use that again.

334
00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:58,929
You're no longer present,

335
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,080
you're no longer attuned,

336
00:12:00,119 --> 00:12:01,359
you're no longer accepting.

337
00:12:02,349 --> 00:12:05,140
So this is kind of internal work that we have to do.

338
00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:07,219
We either say it doesn't matter,

339
00:12:07,510 --> 00:12:08,979
it's the cost of doing business.

340
00:12:09,109 --> 00:12:10,059
I have to

341
00:12:10,780 --> 00:12:11,830
invest in my playroom.

342
00:12:11,869 --> 00:12:13,419
I have to have a toy budget,

343
00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:14,780
and that's part of it,

344
00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:18,820
or we work around that and we either don't have those items in there

345
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:20,340
or we

346
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:22,219
decide how we're going to portion it out.

347
00:12:22,510 --> 00:12:24,380
I do not have any

348
00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:25,320
messy

349
00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:26,469
stuff in my room.

350
00:12:27,020 --> 00:12:27,960
I don't have glitter.

351
00:12:28,130 --> 00:12:29,250
I don't have sequins.

352
00:12:29,409 --> 00:12:31,010
I don't have pom poms.

353
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:32,280
I do have pipe cleaners,

354
00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:35,039
but I don't have anything that can spill,

355
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:36,380
make a mess,

356
00:12:36,969 --> 00:12:38,750
just get embedded in stuff.

357
00:12:38,849 --> 00:12:39,010
I,

358
00:12:39,049 --> 00:12:40,559
I just don't have that because

359
00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:42,760
I can't deal with the clean up of it.

360
00:12:43,409 --> 00:12:46,049
So that's my decision as a clinician so that

361
00:12:46,049 --> 00:12:48,849
I can be fully present and fully unconditionally accepting.

362
00:12:49,450 --> 00:12:51,010
I just don't have that stuff in there and

363
00:12:51,010 --> 00:12:53,359
my kids don't know that other playrooms have glitter.

364
00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:55,929
They don't know that other playrooms are making slime.

365
00:12:56,049 --> 00:12:57,299
Y'all that make slime,

366
00:12:57,609 --> 00:12:58,919
here is your high five.

367
00:12:59,780 --> 00:13:00,010
I,

368
00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:00,369
I'm,

369
00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:02,349
I'm happy for you that you're happy.

370
00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:03,080
I just,

371
00:13:03,090 --> 00:13:03,919
oh my gosh.

372
00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:04,919
The slime thing,

373
00:13:04,929 --> 00:13:05,469
I'm like,

374
00:13:05,489 --> 00:13:06,989
never have I ever,

375
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,960
ever wanted to have slime in my room,

376
00:13:10,049 --> 00:13:11,200
but if you do,

377
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:14,650
I'm very happy for your kids because I'm sure they're happy with you.

378
00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:16,940
You need to know yourself,

379
00:13:17,179 --> 00:13:18,650
you need to do your own work,

380
00:13:18,739 --> 00:13:21,729
and you need to come into the playroom setting everyone up for success,

381
00:13:21,820 --> 00:13:22,849
whatever that looks like.

382
00:13:23,719 --> 00:13:24,330
All right y'all.

383
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:25,080
I love you.

384
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,429
Thank you for all the emails.

385
00:13:26,479 --> 00:13:29,880
Thank you for reaching out to me and saying hello and asking me questions and

386
00:13:30,159 --> 00:13:31,710
I got some anniversary wishes,

387
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,799
I got some baseball check-ins,

388
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,000
so I love y'all.

389
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,070
Thanks for caring about me and my family.

390
00:13:37,309 --> 00:13:38,119
I hope you have a great week.

391
00:13:38,159 --> 00:13:38,989
We'll talk again soon.

392
00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:39,359
Bye.

393
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,280
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

394
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:44,349
Brenna Hicks.

395
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,479
For more episodes and resources,

396
00:13:46,599 --> 00:13:51,359
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.