Trevor Immelman on the West Coast Swing, Slow Play, & Equipment

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a fried egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, fridagg bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.

00:00:38
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host, Andy Johnson. Today I am ecstatic to be joined by Trevor Immelman, a Masters champion and CBS UH is lead analysts in the booth for their golf event UH. Trevor and I are just going to catch up on the season. I think he's been a really exciting season. And I think you know, I'm not saying this because he's coming on the podcast. This is just my objective opinion. I think CBS has continued to nail and improve their telecast. I think the camaraderie in the booth is evident across the entire team there and it and it really makes a difference, you know. I think, like just in general, from my personal anecdotal experience covering golf, I think the best golf coverage is usually when you're doing it with a smile, and it seems like CBS has really embraced that and taken that to a new level in twenty twenty five. So I'm excited to talk with Trevor about the year so far. Looking ahead a little bit, I think, like, you know what's crazy, start to like look at the calendar. The Players is quickly approaching, which means the Masters is quickly approaching. I think, like, before you know it, we're going to be a major two into this year. So I think we're going to talk a little bit about about Augusta also in this podcast. Big thanks to him for carving out some time in his busy schedule as he is in the midst of their kind of spring swing on CBS. So before we get to Trevor, let's talk a little bit about our partner, Club Champion, as their longtime partner. As many of you have probably heard, I've gone to Club Champions since the very very beginning they were based in Chicago. I went when they were working out of a garage. These guys are the best at making clubs out there, so they now have Club Champions stores all I guess they're studios that are called studios all over the country if you haven't been to one, it's a really cool experience. I mean, you go in, They've got all the cl you could imagine, all the chafts you could imagine, and you get to try out the combos that are gonna be the best for you. So with that, their masterfitters get you dialed in and on average, Club Champions customers see twenty one plus yards off the te improvement, a sixteen yard better dispersion with irons. I mean, this is important stuff. This is it kind of feels like Jordan Speeth right now. You know he saw he's at top of the top of the strokes, gained approach. Maybe he went to Club Champion's. That's a joke. I'm not saying he did, but he might have done that. That's the improvement after he got the wrist surgery. Measurably more fairways and regulation and greens in regulation, few er three putts. I'm going to attest to this. A lot of people watched the Bacon in the Egg match where I played Shane Bacon at Midpines. So many people text to be messaged like, man, you really roll the rock. I'll tell you what, Like, I'm discernibly a better putter since going to Club Champion. One other things, it was really cool to see my putter, which I really liked before it kind of skipped off the face. They got me dialed in with a new putter. And this is they do it all with their technology, right, It's like something that you don't notice. I mean, my ball gets rolling on the ground so quick now because it is built for me. This is something you wouldn't really necessarily notice. But what I noticed is my speed control on long putt is so much better. And that speed control, like having better speed control because I'm getting a more consistent role, has helped me so much on like ten foot breaking putts because my my speed is more dialed, which makes my reads better because I like, I know what the line is to hit. So the putter fitting is underrated. Most people don't think to do that. They just go buy a putter, getting it fit so that the ball rolls consistently. Is It's been something for me that's made a huge difference. So anyways, Club Champion has five thousand and five star reviews five thousand plus five star reviews, and the deal is if you go to Club Champion dot com, slash Fried Egg. You get a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase if you use the code fried egg that's no spaces fried egg at club champion dot com slash fried egg that's a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase. All right, thanks to Club Champion. Let's get over to Trevor Immelman to talk about what's happened so far this year. All right, Trevor, thank you for joining us. I have to say it's been delightful to have CBS broadcasting. It seems like you guys are having a lot of fun while you're doing it. What's it been like? You know, you have like a core team. Is there is there a real like chemistry thing that occurs with the with the broadcast team, similar to a sports team.

00:06:31
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think so.

00:06:34
Speaker 2: Uh.

00:06:36
Speaker 1: We we got a pretty tight knit cru there's no doubt about it. And it starts really with our buses in New York. I mean, we got a really cool group of people that run CBS Sports who are sports fanatics and golf fanatics, and that really helps. And I think it shows from an aspect of them really doing everything they can to support us with technologies and ideas that we may have and so it's a it's a cool place to work. I mean, it's a great place to cover golf. Our lead producer Sellers Shy is extremely knowledgeable about the game. It was a great junior and amateur golfer, so he's competitive and he understands that aspect of it. And yeah, I mean, you know, we just got a compound full of people that enjoy what they do and look forward to coming to work. And I think it it shines shines through.

00:07:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it definitely shows it. It seems like you're genuinely having fun. I was. I was thinking about it kind of as I was getting ready for this and and last weekend is like my favorite golf content that I make is usually when I'm having fun. And it seems like your crew is having fun, and I think that it shines through. So you guys have been on the road for the last couple of weeks, in the middle of your your kind of spring warm up, I would say, your spring training before we get to the get to the monster events, you know, the Masters. Notably, what if I asked you to prep a couple of takeaways? You know I always ask you to do a little homework.

00:08:20
Speaker 1: You are a pain in my butt. You always, you know, you soft them me up. You're like, hey, you think you want to come on the pod? Yeah, sure, sure, sure, Andy Shure. And then like you know, twelve hours before, all of a sudden, you give me homework. It's like, dude, I spend my whole life studying for the game of golf. I think I'm going to take it easy, come on the pod for you know, thirty minutes or so. Next thing, you're giving me more homework.

00:08:45
Speaker 2: We I mean with this, this is this was, this was you know, some of this isn't even homework. Some of this is just you know, accessing, getting getting you to file, pull the file out of your golf brain, you know, so big big thing. I was asking for three takeaways thus far from the year, So what are some of your kind of takeaways? Obviously this is being recorded right before the Genesis Invitational, which is being held at Torrey Pines, so we're basically through the West Coast Swing. I don't really count the Danta as a part of it. So what are your your kind of three takeaways so far this year?

00:09:25
Speaker 1: I think there's renewed energy, must say, seems like all the players are really fired up about getting back out there. Some of that may have to do with, you know, having to be in the top hundred by the end of the year, So that is absolutely going to take up the stress level. Miss Trust me, you don't have to play that bad to finish outside the top hundred in the FedEx Cup. So guys seem to be pretty dialed in on that pace of play to be a huge topic right now. So to me, that rarely has become quite a big talking point on the West Coast. And what would the third one be, you know, probably waiting to get the world number one back. Everyone was a little concerned about the injury and how he would come back, and we've seen him a couple of weeks. Now looks like everything remains the same and it's just a matter of time before he wins again, probably this weekend.

00:10:33
Speaker 2: You know, it feels like maybe we aren't talking enough about the world number two being injured.

00:10:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's a great point. I'm a little caught off guard by that. You know. My understanding is he was feeling a little uncomfortable at Capelloure and then decided to get it checked out, and you know, initially probably only thought it was, you know, two or three weeks out, but this is stretched stretched a little longer than that. And I know that he hates to miss events at Tory Pines, So now he's missing two in the space of just a few weeks, and that's got to hurt for him for sure, especially wanting to build off of the awesome momentum he had in twenty four and what a season he had to be able to win two majors and be so consistent. He's been consistent since the day he stepped on the PGA Tour. I mean, this guy is just incredible making it to the tour championship every year you're on tour. What's that seven or eight seasons now, I'm wanting to say, maybe only been outside the top five once at the end of the season. So that is a big deal that he hasn't eat up yet.

00:11:46
Speaker 2: I think, you know, when you talk about Xander, it's also kind of I think if somebody looked at his corn Ferry Tour results, you'd say, like, maybe he struggles with consistency, and then he gets on tour and he's, you know, arguably been the most consistent player on tour for seven eight years. Yeah, you know, it's it's wild. I think, you know, maybe some of that has to do with golf courses.

00:12:13
Speaker 1: Sure.

00:12:14
Speaker 2: I think like he seems to thrive on really tough golf courses, as evidenced by like his breakout performance was the US Open. If you look at his US Open record, it is astounding. Yeah, he like rarely finishes outside the top five. So I think that's that's something. With regards to energy, I think something I think it's actually an underrated storyline is the top one hundred. I don't think it's been a huge part of the discourse. I think obviously it will be a huge part of the discourse during the I think like one of the things like and I know there's a lot of griping about taking cards away, but the sleepiest part of the year for when you talk about PGA Tour events is that mid June to July. And obviously of the US Open and the Open end there that takes all the oxygen. But those events when you get into Detroit and Minneapolis and it's just it's hard because you're talking about an international major and it's the time of year. It's kind of like, you know, baseball has its August that everybody calls the dog days of August. That's kind of like the dog days of the PGA Tour. I think this is gonna make a huge difference for that time of year because it's like that's gonna be the crunch time, that's gonna be effectively the playoff push. And we saw a couple of years ago what a huge difference that that top seventy made right away. It paid dividends the first year with JT, and you know, it wasn't a great moment for JT personally, but it was a great moment for television.

00:13:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we felt that CBS was covering that event and it absolutely added a little extra juice to the windom. And I think this change will as well coming down the stretch. But then they're gonna have some events in the fall to be able to still kind of jostle for position, but even it will be making those events more interesting as well. And look, I can understand some people not or being a little concerned about taking some cards away, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it's a good move just to lean things down a little bit. You know, this is the elite of the elite as if you make it to the PGA Tour and you keep your card out there. So I think that part is being rewarded, and I'm hoping that in this system we see just a little more churn. That's fun. It's fun to be able to see guys duking it out on all these different tours trying to get to the big stage. And so we're gonna have corn Ferry guys, We've got DP World Tour guys, and that churn is going to be because like I said, it's it's pretty tough to be in the top hundred. I gotta be honest with you, like, you know you can. You can get to let's say you have a tough stretch here leading up to the Masters, and then maybe you're not in the Masters, and at that point you're probably not going to be in RBC hilton Head because that's a signature event. Now you're getting to Zurich time and you are behind the eight ball man, you are like halfway through the season and you've got to really get things going. So it's going to cause some stress and anxiety for these guys for sure, but for us in our roles, whether it be podcasting or TV or fans. I think that's gonna be fun to really dial up the intensity even more so. Yeah, I think I think it's been a good move from the tour, and you know, the proof's in the putting. We'll have to see how things shake out. Twenty six seems like with that the increased scrutiny on pace of play and course set up and stuff like that, you know, we should be flying around in three hours next year.

00:16:12
Speaker 2: Did you see the LPGA pace of play last weekend?

00:16:16
Speaker 1: I heard about it. You know, good for them for doing.

00:16:19
Speaker 2: Some three hours and forty two seconds.

00:16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's quick. Man. Let me tell you something that is quick when you you know, I get it, I get it. I get the moaning and griping from the fans wanting to speed it up. You know, what's happened in baseball has probably put us in this position because people have seen what a great change it's been for baseball to be able to shave off about thirty minutes. But man, when you're out there making a living and you're having to make five foot is with a cup of break on thirteen on the stimped greens for a living, dang, I mean that it's it can be tough at times, especially when the wind is whipping across the green at the same time. So we're going to see these guys really really have to fight and dig deep at times. But like I said a little earlier, for us in our position media wise, it's going to be great to be able to see how they react and adjustments that they make. You know, that's what you do in order to be have longevity and be real successful. What is it. It's the ability to be able to adjust, remold yourself, move with the times, and still stay elite. And that's what creates great content for us to be able to follow.

00:17:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the pace of play things interesting. I recently played you know, the people have been asking for me to play more golf on YouTube.

00:17:54
Speaker 1: Not many people, I'm.

00:17:56
Speaker 2: Sure, but there are dozens of people, you know, maybe less, maybe less than the people that tuned into the first round to live broadcast. But I said it. I said it, not you. But I noticed I was filming something last week and I just noticed, like I haven't played competitive golf in a number of years, and just just how much I slowed down. I mean, I'm playing golf one pace for the last eight years, And I'm not gonna lie like I'm way slower when shots matter, like when I'm worried about shots. Yeah, I get I do get the side of the token of like, uh, like, it's hard. It's hard to play fast when things matter a lot. From a broadcast standpoint, for you, when you're in the booth and somebody's standing over the shot longer than you expect, what does that do to the flow between you, Jim, Dottie Frank, everybody on the team. What happens when somebody maybe takes twenty extra seconds that you didn't expect.

00:19:13
Speaker 1: Well, I don't you know. We we're paid to observe things, so you know, we all pick up on it really quickly, and we start to roll with the player's routine and understand at that point how much time we have to talk. One of the rules on our team is to really protect the integrity of the shot, so we rarely try to make sure we're not talking as the swing starts, and for sure, when the ball is struck, we're really interested in hearing the strike and understanding the noise of the contact. So you start to fall into a rhythm pretty quickly and Our producer also does a great job to be able to buy time. As he understands the player's routines, he'll cut to them later and later. Now. Every now and then you get a player that looks a little iced over the ball. Tom Kim is in that spot right now, and that catches us off guard, because you know, the majority of players that take a little longer, they take longer to get ready, and they're having long conversations with their caddies and discussing all sorts of stuff that, like you say, you probably wouldn't discuss if you were just out playing with your buddies. But once they decide, they go pretty quick and the balls away in a couple of seconds. But you get a couple guys here or there that when they get over the ball, they stand there for a long time, and that is something that's you know, not normal, shall I say. But for the most part, you just drop into the rhythm and you know, by the second or third shot you understand what your timing is of how much you can say and where you want to go with it.

00:20:58
Speaker 2: With you understanding both sides of the coin here, which I think is an important thing to come at any problem with is sympathizing with the players who need to play faster, and also understanding, you know, what playing faster could do for the you know, the word that everybody loves to talk about products. What what would be your you know, what would be the things that you would try and do to potentially speed up play on tour?

00:21:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is That was probably the buzzword of twenty twenty four was product.

00:21:37
Speaker 2: Everybody loves to talk product.

00:21:39
Speaker 1: Product and equity. Those are the two buzzwords of twenty twenty four for sure. Hopefully we've moved past that we start talking about winning in trophies. That would be my ideal. But you're exactly right. You know, I play golf a couple times a week when I'm home with a buddy of mine here at the club. Normally, I'll drop my daughter off at school at seven point thirty and I'm at the course by seven forty five, and I've hit probably fifteen shots, and we tee off before eight and with each of our own cart, just the two of us, and we're finished at ten. It takes us two hours to play eighteen holes because we're each on our own cart and we just buzz around the golf course, and yeah, then all of a sudden, I get into the PNC, one of Pj's favorites, you know, champions to affiliate it and playing with my boy, and now it matters a little bit. You know, I don't blame a scramble, but still it matters. And you're playing with all these legends and the spectators and TV and what have you, and all of a sudden you find yourself standing over it, going well, you know, do I need to flush this eight or do I need to take a little off? And if I miss left, I'm dead. And all these thoughts start to ramble through your mind. And that's the thing that rarely starts to take time. You know, National golfers inherently are unsure, anxious individuals, and so like mega type A, A gott to cross the t's, dot the i's. And so as those thoughts start to ramble through your mind and you start to go through this checklist of oh, maybe left is not so bad, or maybe I'll bail out to the right because I know I can get up and down from over there. Those are the things that you got to try and work through. And it's that is the challenge of this game. I mean it is. The mental aspect is such a giant part of it. So that's the fight that these players are are in mentally, each one of them. They're fighting like a battle. They're at war in their mind while they're playing for a living. What were the things that I would do to make it go far. I think you've got to enforce the rules more strictly. It's a little bit loose. I think I think we could change the procedure of it. I think it takes too long to get to a penalty. I think you should be told that you're out of position at the same time. Because of you you're out of position, you put on the clock, and then as soon as you go over your time, you get a penalty immediately. I would get rid of the fines because these guys are playing for so much money. Now, when you penalize somebody as stroke and then you tell them, by the way, the next time is going to be two strokes, and then it's another two strokes every time after that, you're costing these guys a lot of money. And so I would get rid of the fines and I'll just you know, clean up the procedure a little bit so that everybody knows that there's no messing around. Once you told you on the clock, you better get going, and then they'll go fast because they know they have to.

00:25:02
Speaker 2: The stroke penalty is in essence a fine.

00:25:06
Speaker 1: A massive fine nowadays.

00:25:08
Speaker 2: A huge, huge fine, massive.

00:25:11
Speaker 1: You know, finding a guy twenty five grand because he's been put on the clock or because he's got a stroke penalty is you know, they're just not concerned about that. You know. I know that might sound obnoxious or gross to say, because there's a lot of people working the butts off and struggling out there, but the stroke is rarely what's going to get these guys fired up, because at the end of the day, the margins are so tight out there, Andy, these guys are so good, and now that you have to be in the top hundred as well, you give a guy a one shot penalty or a two shot penalty, now you're on the cut line and you're rarely going to see guys make sure that they don't get into that situation. And I think that is one thing that could rarely help. And the other thing that is super controversial, I think you're not on the same side of this is I think if the equipment gets rolled back, we could go a little faster too. That might not sound like it makes sense, but if you're able to shorten the courses and shorten the walks between greens and teas, those are the sort of things that can shave off time as well.

00:26:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also the waiting and not having to wait every single Part five reintroducing three shot par fives.

00:26:38
Speaker 1: There's no part five. We might see one this week. Actually, when the wind blows at a certain direction on thirteen, yeah, then that is one of the toughest layups in golf. Right there. You're laying up into a blind area and the fairway is less than twenty yards wide and it kicks left way. So that lay up with even if you've got a seven or six sign is brutal. And then you're hitting thirteen yards uphill to a green with three plateaus mega exposed. If there's any wind blowing, that can be a pretty brutal. I wanted to say the one round at the Farmers that whole played over par for a part five, which we just never see during the season.

00:27:25
Speaker 2: On Sunday at the Farmers. This is nitty gritty. I've probably watched too much golf.

00:27:33
Speaker 1: There's such Sunday. There's no such thing.

00:27:36
Speaker 2: One day at the Farmers, when they had the wind off the right with the pin on the right and the greens were so firm, I was like, jeezus, this hole is so hard right now, Like you can't because the way the green is, the right side has the little plateau. It's like the like, and I think like some of this, like some of this is like so hard to understand how hard the shot is to hit. Yeah, if to achieve getting the pinned the ball on the right side. I remember Harris English hit just like hit a really good shot, landed on the right plateau, but spins it off into the middle of the green and then he made a great lag putt to you know, that was kind of I thought, like a lot of people thought that was a little bit sleepy, but I thought that was like for people that like major championship golf, that was like kind of hang on for deer life. On the back nine and just like, can can I make eight pars and get this to the house? I thought you called it perfect. You basically, you know, you put your neck out there, predicted a winning score and hit the winning score on the number, which was impressive.

00:28:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, the blind blind squirrel a cone theory every now and then, when you when you throw enough stuff out there, you're gonna be correct here or there. But that was that was a great whole location. Sometimes it's fun to see guys have to really fight and think to make a par and do something extra ordinary to make a birdie. And you know, when you're standing down the bottom of the hill, you can just see the top of the flag there, and you've got probably five paces of green on that top right shelf, and if you miss to the right, the rough so thick, you're probably not gonna be able to keep it on their plateau. So then you're going to chip it down into the bowl anyway. So guys just decided, Okay, I'll aim for the corner of the ridge and if I can get lucky with the perfect type of spin, I can keep it up. But they're pretty much resigning themselves to be down in the bowl and then have to have a great two putt from forty feet. And it's good to see that every now and then. I mean, we can't have thirty four underwinning every week.

00:29:43
Speaker 2: Not to mention you have a hook lie down in the fairway with a watch, which.

00:29:49
Speaker 1: Imagine, imagine if they shaved the bank on the right too, and the guys if they missed right that thing's going fifty yards down the hill, that would be a little mean. These are the things I think of now that I don't have to play anymore.

00:30:02
Speaker 2: But that's is that funny how like you you get a little bit more cruel and being spirited when you're not hitting the shots.

00:30:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, But like I said, it all stems back to like I said earlier, your pro golfers are so resistant to change because it makes things uncertain and you've invested.

00:30:25
Speaker 1: Thousands of hours of your life becoming elite at the sport, and that's what makes guys a little nervy when you start to talk about making big changes like that.

00:30:40
Speaker 2: On the equipment front. I have to say last weekend I was watching and I was astonished at some of the numbers that just like this is not to call it like I know Matt mcneely's done a lot of work with speed training, but when I saw him one hundred and ninety nine yards into fifteen at Scottsdale after a three hundred and I think it was three p fifty nine drive. Maybe I kind of was like, wait, what, Maverick mcdeally. Yeah, I think, like, I think you hit it. It's like there's the par five, the actual par five where you have to have a thoughtful like I think, like people will say it's fun, it's berties, it's it's this, But when when we're hitting mid irons into par five's, there's not the risk associated. I think, like where I you lose the the shot of like the decision, you know, it's it's what Augustus says, the momentous decision right where you're standing, and it's like, well, I don't really like blasting the three wood up there or the long iron up there because there's some trouble I could get in a hairy spot. But I also don't like laying up yea, And I think that's like I don't want to lay up. I don't want to do either of these. Really. I think that's one of the great moments in golf that I feel like we're missing, because when you're hitting a six iron in or a five iron or a four iron, you know it's just going to go into a greenside bunker at worst.

00:32:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. Look, we're gonna have to qualify ourselves because I got people coming at me last week because I posted something from Shackleford that you know, I read all of your guys newsletters, just try and pick up bits and bobs. Shackelford had a pretty cool piece I thought after Pebble where he showed the tracing and the groupings of T shots from five fifteen and twenty five and you could clearly see how much further these guys were hitting it down that fairway there at the pot five fourteenth at Pebble, and dude, people would just wearing me out with oh, the wind was blowing twenty down wind and this and that, and it's like, dude, I give you that there was some wind helping the players, but never ever have we seen a player try to take a line that McElroy took on that T shirt. Never. And to the argument as well, that are they're better athletes now? Man, you're not giving much respect to the guys that came before. You don't think that Jack Nicholas could move a forty three inch steel shot pretty quick. You don't think that Sam Snead could move the club pretty quick like these guys are incredible athletes. Now the swings have changed somewhat because you hit up on it more because of the equipment. But we're in a place right now where these balls and driver heads are just like rocket ships and these kids have learned the game swinging them and so they know how to maximize everything. And you know, I think back to when Woodland won the US Open, and he's since he's been on tur have been one of the longest players. I mean he's older now, but.

00:34:15
Speaker 2: When he's still wont when he still moves.

00:34:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, when he came out, he was one of the big boys. And when he won the US Open, he smashed to drive and then three wood onto that tiny little green. You know that's something too, where in order to win the US Open he has hit two of the most incredible shots back to back to really take that tournament by the scruff of the neck. And I think stuff like that would just be more fun to be able to see number one who has that gear, Number two, who's willing to take that risk on. You know, imagine if a player had to decide between a three wood, five iron and a three iron going into fifteen at TPC Scots rather than having to hit yeah, five, six, seven irons and.

00:35:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's like a great example of if you're hitting a seven iron, that green is surrounded effectively by water, but there's a bunker. But if you're eating seven iron, the water's not really in your mind. No, no, if you're hitting a three iron, it's there.

00:35:22
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure. Because now you've got to get the contact so perfect and you've got to line this face up to make sure that you don't, you know, hit it fifteen or twenty yards off line. Now, look, we'll qualify ourselves again just that I don't get beat up online. You got altitude there, The fairways were firm, so I can see a guy like mav sneaking it out there to you know whatever. It was three forty or so, but still if we dialed it back to where if you ripped one it went three point fifteen. Now he's going to have to make this choice on the second shot. And when you've got all the stuff on the line, whether you want to think about points, or whether you want to think about money, or whether you want to think about world rankings, anything like that, And now this this becomes a real big decision whether you want to just play a little safe and trust your wedge and your PoTA, whether you want to take it on, whether you want to wait for seventeen it's a drivable hole, and be more patient. It starts to add more nuance to it, and I think the fans would enjoy that more.

00:36:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like everybody's how like, oh, birdies are exciting. I think what's exciting about golf is the interplay of risk and reward and the decision making that comes when you are feeling uncomfortable. I think, like for what you guys do, it's like a hard broadcast in terms of like when you compare other sports, you have all you have eighteen different field of play, and you have this tournament that lasts four days and spans you know, effectively forty hours. You know like that, like it is not a succinct, but like what it all builds to is Sunday coming down the stretch. How do you hold yourself together? And the more stress that's involved with that, I think, the more compelling naturally the product.

00:37:25
Speaker 1: But it's also and you would know this better than me. I mean your wheelhouse is golf courses and architecture and stuff like that. When I was playing WM, there was five guys will list that could carry the water on eighteen.

00:37:42
Speaker 2: That's the T shot that maybe has changed the most to me.

00:37:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and everybody that would be one of the toughest. You had eleven, fifteen and eighteen where you stood on the tea and you're like, man, I gotta suck this up and make a good swing right here, because you don't want to be in the right bunkers under the lip. You absolutely don't want to be in the water because you can't cover that. And remember how the world went nuts when JB. Holmes was the first guy he was coming down the stretch there and he laced that T shot out there and had like whatever ninety yards in and everybody was like, how incredible was that shot? He was the only dude that could do that. Just take the water out of play. Now everybody, everybody's bombing it over that water. The water is not even in play anymore.

00:38:31
Speaker 2: It's a perfect example of a golf hole that is completely changed right where like you look at it now and it's like a thoughtless T shot. It's just like blasted for the fin and you know you got like effectively like eighty yards on both sides, and it's you know, like if it hits in the fairway, you've got a lobwige in Yeah, and it's just a toothless kind of like a toothless hole.

00:38:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's green complex too. It really is a cool green complex. The whole left side of it falls away, so all the whole locations that you think are benine up the left, you actually only have two or three yards to play with because the ball funnels down into that shaved fairway area. And then the ones on the right you got the deep bunker and the finger in the back ride is tiny, so when there's any sort of firmness, you've got to have unbelievable spin control to hold it in that back right corner. But you know, when these guys are just hitting sand wedge and lob wedge and there, it takes like you say, it takes the teeth out of it. Yeah.

00:39:35
Speaker 2: I mean you could even look at seventeen and say it's dramatically changed that hole.

00:39:41
Speaker 1: It was.

00:39:41
Speaker 2: That hole was always reachable for pretty much everybody but with driver. Yeah, with driver, But like the thing is now like when you take when it becomes a shorter club, that left side becomes more and more easier to avoid. The shorter and shorter of the club gat the easier to avoid the left hazard is right. I think that's just generally like what people don't think about with the distance debate, and like the courses, like what courses have been obsoleted? Like okay, like when when the clubs that you hit into targets get shorter, your dispersion improves and the hazards, the associated hazards and things that are designed around the said targets become less relevant. Yeah you know so, I yeah, I mean, like distance can't be you know, if you I think Shackelford obviously, I mean, Jeff's incredible. You should read his Quadrilateral. You literally wrote a book about this thirty years ago now, about like equipment in the game of golf, and has basically forecasted exactly where it's gone. And like one of the things that he harps on and we aren't playing they aren't playing this week at Rivera, but at Riviera. Just the pace of play and what's happened since ten has become reachable for everybody and eleven is reachable for everyone. It's just a disaster for pace of play because like you're waiting on the tenth t shot, do you wave them up? Do you not wave them up? You play ten, and like usually you expect a release there right after you wait a long time, and you're waiting on eleven t because everybody's waiting to hit second shots into twelve.

00:41:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the same thing. It's the same thing when I was playing riv which has always been one of my favorites. I mean, what a great golf course, brilliant design, was always one of my favorite weeks of the year. It was, you know, probably fifty to fifty guys laying up, guys going for it. Now you very very rarely we'll see a guy lay up there, and it takes some of the the strategy away from a great short pat four like that. And for sure, like you say, now everybody's blasting it up there. Everybody's you know, for the most part, underneath those trees on the left hand side. Sometimes it stops guys teeing off on eleven because somebody is down there in the trees. Everybody's now waiting on eleven because you can get up in two, no problem. Now, wasn't always that way, and like you say, you've got a massive bottleneck right there at the turn, and that's right when we come on the air as well, so it makes it a little more tricky.

00:42:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I agree. I think like one of the things you hit on too, is like, how do you can you tell me if this is a crazy idea with pace of play, what if there was a walking official with every group? Would that speed how would that would that speed things up?

00:43:02
Speaker 1: In essence? In essence, that should work, But you're going to have to have somebody that is super trained. It's going to have to be a PGA tour rules officially. In my opinion, you can't put that on some sort of volunteer that's trying to come out and help the tour and all of a sudden, somebody's holding the stop watch, and when do you start it? What happens if there's a ruling, you've got to you would have to have somebody that is so dialed in to the rules and regulations of the tour. So that might take a little testing and a little homework. I would start it just on the greens and see if that would work. So I'd get a rules official on every green very clearly, let the players understand how this is going to work, at what point the clock is starting, and just see if it works when they're on the greens, see if it shaves off any time, and then maybe from there you could stretch it out a little bit. There are other things that could possibly get in the way as well. You know, if you're out there competing and there's fans moving around, and there's crosswalks, and there's a lot of people out there, there's a lot of cart traffic, there's a lot of noise, and so there are times when a player may need to back off and restart. So I don't think you can be like crazy cutthroat, but there's probably a way to at the very least test something and see if significant time is getting shaved off. But I want to ask you another question, because you know, we're here talking about the pro game and the distance and how it changes the way architects have seen that a golf course designed a golf course the way they think it should be played, and these players just doing something totally different because of how far they can hit it and how good they are. But the argument is always from the amateurs and the buddies at the club that are like, oh, I don't want to. I don't want to have to now all of a sudden, hit the ball shorter. I'm already a fifteen handicap. The game's hard enough. All of that is true. Why would you want to make me hit it shorter? I think we need to discuss through that and make people that rarely matter in the game. The majority of people that are spending all the money to be members at clubs, buying equipment, you know, subscribing to your newsletter, stuff like that. These are the people that are really spending the money. How do we put their minds at ease to where a rollback is not going to ruin the game for them? Or you? Are you a bifurcation.

00:45:53
Speaker 2: Guy, I'd be fine with bifurcation. I just I think the distance problem is beyond just the game. I think, like I've got I've got some friends that are like fifteen handicaps that can hit it three hundred yards. And you know what's the scariest thing in golf? A fifteen handicap that hits it three hundred yards like no clue where it's going, Like no idea, and like, when you think about it, it's like, Hey, I don't.

00:46:21
Speaker 1: Know, I have no cue with my bulls going either. I'm not a fight.

00:46:25
Speaker 2: Which let's think about a fifteen that has the capability of hitting it three hundred yards and just the vast array of outcomes by that ball, Like when you talk about just I'm like, just like a safety perspective of like other fairways, every fairway within one hundred yards right and left is in play with that player. I would say, like, I think the best thing that the USGA could do they need to hire someone and give them a couple dozen rollback balls that I know have been made. Yeah, I know Titleist has made them. Yeah, And and say like, can you just go film videos of people playing with these? And like if I gave a rollback ball to my dad, who hits it two hundred and twenty yards, I don't think he would notice a difference that if it goes two hundred and eighteen yards.

00:47:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. My understanding is with these balls that the USGA I have tested. I've spoken to people at the USJ about this. They're convinced that the amount of distance the average golf is going to lose is so minuscule. I mean, we're talking like two or three yards, like that's not going to really be noticeable. And the other thing is I would I would remarket the whole city situation of a rollback, why can't we make it normal or the norm that five to seven handicapper now instead of playing a sixty eight hundred course, players a sixty five hundred yard course, And if eighteen handicapper instead of playing sixty five hundred is playing six thousand. Now you're being able to shrink the size of the properties as well. So from a sustainability standpoint, you're going to cut back on some of those things. And I just feel like it needs to be marketed the correct way so that people actually understand what's going to happen, so that they don't have to get freaked out by it.

00:48:44
Speaker 2: I completely agree, And it's you know, like the big thing is like for the it's going to be in a non discernible amount from the most people. And I think like where people miss this for like all the way down the game, like to high school golf to junior golf. Sure I the last State Amateur I played in it would have been seven years ago. It was at my home course, which was a sixty six sixty seven hundred yard par seventy. I am not a speed demon. I can I can move it a little bit. Trevor, how how many what do you think the longest club that I hit over two rounds into a par four was Yeah, I.

00:49:40
Speaker 1: Mean it's probably a nine nine or an eight iron nine iron.

00:49:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was. That was seven or eight years ago. The clubs have just the clubs and balls have just gotten better, for sure, And it's like you start to think about that, It's like, I'm at that time, I was a thirty two year old working stiff. I'm and I'm just a par seventy sixty seven hundred yard course is effectively just a driver wedge fest for me. Yeah, and I'm playing. I'm playing in this tournament with guys that are now on corn Ferry Tour and stuff. They're just hidden sandwich into every.

00:50:15
Speaker 1: Hole one and and I've obviously look at my job to pay attention to all levels of the game and understand people that are coming through the ranks. And you know, we got mc roy right now. I mean, he is the best driver of the ball in the world. He has been for the majority of his professional career. But let me just tell you something. The kids that are playing elite level amateur golf right now, they whip it past McElroy. I mean, you guys are so fast. And the next generation that is coming through, and we're already starting to see it. You know, the Clantons, This kid from South Africa, Aldrich pot Kite, dude, he's one nineties. He's one ninety in his sleep, in his sleep, he's one ninety. I mean, this guy in testing is over two hundred. These people are coming and so we're seeing how these courses are being played by Macroy, Chefler, Shoffley, who are okay, Scotty is like a high one seventies, one eighty guy. Shoffley picked up a ton of speed last year. He's like an early one eighties maybe one eighty four guy. And then Macroy will crank it up a few miles an hour more than that if he rarely wants to. He's like eighty two eighty three normally for just a normal drive. And we've seen how they playing these courses. Now. Tack on a few more miles an hour, another five six miles an hour onto that, and think what these kids are going to be heading into these holes. We can't make the core is big enough. We just can't. And that is That's where I'm coming at this from. I'm not like some type of sinister, mean old pro that like I want everybody to struggle and shoot eighty No, No, I just want to be able to have the game and the greatest courses, be able to stand the test of time because at some point you're just going to blow up all these records because it becomes a different sport essentially.

00:52:30
Speaker 2: I said this on the recent Shotgun Start episode, but it I believe that this we're going to look back when they get the roll back. I mean they're going to have to roll back at some point. If it doesn't happen in two years, in ten years, it's going to be like what are we doing? But we are absolutely in the equipment induced steroid era of golf. It's just the equipment is the steroids. It's not steroids for baseball. It's the equipment it is. You know, I remember, do you remember the discourse around Cam champ uh seven years ago, six years ago? How he comes out and he's hitting at thirty past everybody, and I think he probably was high one eighties guy. And I remember I I I remember being like, this is this is what everybody's gonna be in ten years, and people were like, no, he's a freak, this is a one of one. Well look look at Aldrich Pottgeiter. Yeah, and people are gonna say the same thing, and they're gonna say he's a freak, he's one on one. It's like, no, no, no, this is just he's just the start. It's like, think about Giannis and now you have one beyond one Byama, which is like Yannas, like even crazier than Yannis, right.

00:53:49
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's something. I mean, these kids crank it and they don't even have to be that big. I mean, Luke Clinton is not like a big strapping dude, but he moves it. Man, that dude is legit. Let me tell you, it would not surprise me one bit if he wins on tour by the end of the year. A great young kid, super talented, and there's a whole host of them. There's a whole host of them that moves the ball that fast. You know, my kid plays in college and I see the youngsters that they're recruiting and kids that are coming in next year that already mid one eighties. These guys are like sixteen seventeen years old. Like, where is this going to end up? There's only one place in the world that can handle this, and that's Augustin National because they amazingly have the ability to make enhancements to the course to keep the shot value the same as what it always has been. You think back, just take a whole like fifteen and think back to some of the best highlights sorry that we've had. Think back to the shots you've seen Nicholas hit from the top of that hill with a two and three iron and Tiger and Sara Sarazon in the Cities holding out with whatever it was, a forward or a five wood, and think about how they've had to change that hole to keep the shot value the same. It's the only course that can do it.

00:55:29
Speaker 2: And and you think about, like this is a little netpicky thing about like, but like, how does this impact how does this impact me viewing the sport, me being a spectator at Augusta or a patron at Augusta National. They had to move the tea on the other side of that walkway, and it's it's it's now like people have to stop and wait, Like you can't just walk down, you know, cause like where the tea is, like, it's create like this this is there's all these cause and effects and that's a tiny little one, yeah, but there are cause and effects across. Like one of the things I think that's crazy is like, if you watch golf in person, these guys hit it so hard and so fast, you can't see where it goes.

00:56:16
Speaker 1: No, you can't. You can't. You've got to train your eye, especially if you're standing on the side so you're like face on to the player. You have to train your eyes to move that fast. Yes, it is. It's phenomenal how quick that ball comes out there. And I think, look, it is fun to watch. And you know, this is this is a back and forth discussion, you know. I wouldn't say that I'm like totally tied in on any of these ideas, but I'm absolutely open to having a proper discussion about this and hearing what everybody has to say. Once again, it's people will say to me, oh, but it's fun to see guys hit it three fifty. I'm like, yeah, it is fun. It's an incredible talent to be able to hit a ball that far and still keep it on the planet. But once again, it's all it is is gonna be. It's like a remarketing again. Why why isn't it Why wouldn't it be fun to see him hit it three hundred?

00:57:22
Speaker 2: That's exactly. It's just it's just a.

00:57:25
Speaker 1: Change of mindset. It's not like it's not gonna be fun to see someone hit it three hundred.

00:57:30
Speaker 2: John Daly was super popular when he hit it when he led the tour driving distance at two ninety exactly. So that's what's wild. It's like you think about John Daily. Yeah, yeah, it was like, by far the longest hitter and it was two ninety. And now it's like Rory's flying it. I watched a video with him in Grant Horvat. He could fly it like three three thirty three forty. It's insane.

00:57:54
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

00:57:55
Speaker 2: And I don't think he gets enough credit though, for how much speed he's picked up up in the like incrementally year over year.

00:58:03
Speaker 1: Macelroy, Yeah, yeah, he's I think he's gonna have a big twenty five, dude. I mean that performance at Pebble Beach was spectacular, that back nine performance, the whole week, the back nine performance though, when it was kind of tiger like when it mattered, and when it was time, he just put his foot on the gas and I was like, all right, boys, that's enough playing around. I've had enough of this. And then boom boom boom, boom boom. You know, from twelve through sixteen it was just Okay, that's it, I'm winning this. You guys can play for second. It was super, super impressive the way he's gone about it. Understood or felt that there was something lacking in his swing. In twenty four, hit some shots he didn't like under pressure, locks himself in a simulator for a couple of weeks in the off season, makes the tweaks that he wants to make to his back swings that he can get that club falling in a better slot for him, comes out and you know, these changes are bettered in. He had a nice performance there at the end of last year in Dubai to win that race to Dubai what is it six times now? And yeah, that performance at Pebble was legit. And now we're at Tory Pines, which is just a bomb fest.

00:59:34
Speaker 2: I think that rough is up, so it's just going to be more Bomber.

00:59:38
Speaker 1: I mean that golf course is like you get to the first and you swing hard, and then every hole after that you just swing harder. Ah, he's gonna be tough to beat around there. His wedge game seems to have improved. He is a super super underrated chipper and bunker player. Nobody talks about how his hands are around the greens, and a guy is great chipper and great bunker player, and the playing in the last couple of years, the putting is it's not holding him back. It's like a semi weapon, and everything else he has is like a weapon of mass destruction. So it's like this dude, and you look at how the major championship courses set up for him this year. I mean Quail, he owns Quail Oakmont, The way he drives the ball, how high he can hit his irons, if the greens are firm there, he's going to be tough around there. The open basically in his hometown kind of feel.

01:00:49
Speaker 2: And then a guy national, I have to think, you know when you've been widely considered the best or like it say, conversation, well, like Rory's the beat. This might have been the first time this last year where everybody was like, Rory isn't the best, Scottie is the best? Yes, And there's not a debate.

01:01:11
Speaker 1: No, not at all.

01:01:13
Speaker 2: When you've been at the top for twelve thirteen years, there has to be a little extra juice when you feel like you've lost it and him, he himself even omitting Scotti's the best.

01:01:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, what Chefler did last year was it's got to go down as one of the one of the greatest seasons in the history of our sport. It's going to be able to be measured slightly differently with the fact that he gets the gold medal, and there just hasn't been that many of those yet in our sports, So it adds that that extra wrinkle. But yeah, you kind of get the feel that that mclarroy's got a little thorn in his butt here. He's like, Okay, let me get back to this, make the changes I need to make, and get out there and show him who's the boss. So it's going to be fun because look, Cheffler's legit and he he lulls you to sleep because he's so calm, he's so nice. He has this relaxed demeanor. You hardly ever see him get upset. Last week we saw him kind of bang his bag on sixteen. I liked it. I actually liked it because for that split second, he just lost his cool and he let his guard down and viewers could see just how much it means to him and how competitive this guy is. But yeah, for the most part, loves you to sleep. And it's like death by a thousand cuts when you're playing against him, because he just keeps coming. He's like the ocean. And so we got a bunch of guys that are really at the top of their game right now. I hope, I hope this injury was shofly doesn't steal too much momentum from him and he's able to pick up immediately where he left off, because we've got four or five guys right now that are just going to be duking it out week off the week. It's I think twenty five is setting up to be a super exciting season.

01:03:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do too. That seems like a perfect end point. You've got to go. We're at the hour we're going to do this for this year. So thanks Trevor for coming on and best of luck at Tory Pines. This weekend.

01:03:32
Speaker 1: Hey, it's great to hang with you guys man. Thanks, that was.

01:03:34
Speaker 2: Fun, all right, big thanks to Trevor for joining the show, and big thanks to PJ Clark for turning and burning this episode. With Trevor's schedule, we need to record on Wednesday morning, and we are usually up Wednesday mornings with this podcast, but we didn't want to wait till next week for a segment that might cover you know, current events. So we'll be back next week. It should be a fun episode. I don't want to I don't want to jinx it. We're recording the vast majority of it the day of this this this coming out, but I, you know, just in case internet issues should be a varied one. Uh and uh. We're kind of starting our march towards towards majors. It's kind of crazy. So if you haven't yet, I would urge you to go check out our YouTube page. We have been pumping out content there. We've got a match between Shane Bacon and I. Check out the portrait on Angela Moser that Cameron put together. That's a really great one for golf architecture of hands. But yeah, we're we're chugging through twenty twenty five. Big thanks to everybody for listening, and we'll tell act you soon