Encanto with Jessica Flores

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. We don't talk about Bruneo because if we did, we wouldn't pass the Bechdel tests. You know. There it is, yeah, that we just don't talk about Bruno because we're feminist, not because we're not. Because our family has this whole thing going on right right, right right, that's actually kind of an incredible hack to to dazzle and impress your friends. When you don't want to talk about a male family member, you're like, oh, well, it's actually just it's kind of a thing. I don't. I don't really talk about men in my family. Meanwhile, my brother is like at the bottom of a well, I'm like, well, I can't. I kind of can't. There's not really much I can do due to the political climate. I cannot escape my brother from this well exactly exactly. God. I kind of love how that song became the wasn't it was like almost a number one hit or so if it came just like a pop song, it was on the radio and stuff. Yeah, yeah, because I heard I heard that song before I saw the movie, and I was like putting that song in context when you've only heard it on the radio and around and at CVS. You're just like, oh, oh, I guess I didn't really listen to why they weren't talking about him. Well, okay, okay, now you know, Now you know, Now I know, and now it's it's been on my mind. I'm so excited to talk about this movie because it bankes me cry so much. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. We do talk about in conto. We do want to talk about Incanto. Not as good a song. Unfortunately, we can make we can make it a bop. We can make it a smash hit. Yeah. We're famous songwriters, so that will be easy for us. Yeah. Famously, this is the Bechtel Cast, the podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, which, of course is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, originally found in a comic by Alison Bechtel called dikes to watch out for. The whole test was not really conceived as an actual test. It was just written as a joke, but it's now become a test that we did base an entire podcast around. Anyway, there are many versions of it. UM. The one that we have crafted over the years requires that two characters of a marginalized gender have names, they have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man. So again we don't talk about no, no, not. And ideally the conversation is you know, narratively significant, um, you know, two or more lines of dialogue, etcetera. So that is the Bechdel test. And today we have an incredible movie that has been requested since truly the second it came out, if not the second the trailer came out. It's in Conta, the movie that took over the world. I'm so excited to talk about it. And we have an incredible guest with us today, so let's get her in here. We certainly do. She is a lifestyle content creator and YouTuber. It's Jessica Flores. Hello, welcome, very excited to be on here today. Oh my gosh, we're so excited to have you and to talk about in conto with you. What is your relationship, connection, history, etcetera with Encanto. Sure, So, as a lifestyle creator, I and as a mom, I cover a lot of Disney both as for my in this and in my home. But on top of that, I am a Columbian American and as someone growing up with not that much positive Columbia media media out there. As soon as this film came out, my family, my friends, my community was very excited about it and eager to see what Disney would come up with. And so it's one of the reasons why I covered it from the moment the trailer came out until past that. And over the first few months of the film being out, I created a bunch of videos over it. Uh combined they've gotten over a million views where I discussed cultural reference, historical background, and all of that. So that's my connection, and that's how we originally learned of of your work was through one of the YouTube videos, and it's we're gonna link everything in the description. It's like, your work is so fabulous. I'm glad that Encanto brought us to you. Thank you so much. Course, Jamie. What about your relationship. I was. I was holding out on watching this movie because my niece is too and she's just arriving slowly at a feature length attension. And so I had a pact with my cousin that I would I would wait to watch Incanto until I can watch it with her. And then we decided we wanted to do this episode and I had to break the rules. I'm going to be publicly betraying my niece in but but look in my defense, future Carolina, it was for content, and I would do it again. So the sacrifices we make for content. Yeah, but this is a movie that I truly as as I was watching it. It's gorgeous, it's funny, it's great. I can't wait to talk about it. Um. And I was really surprised for for how short a time this movie has been out, how much I had already like kind of picked up through cultural osmosis because it's just been like everywhere, and um, yeah, I have so many questions, so many things I want to talk about. It made me cry so much, And uh, sorry, Chloe and Carolina. I will still watch it when I come and visit in November. Um. Caitlyn wentz your history within Kanto. I saw it in theaters and at the time I liked it but didn't love it. And I think it was just because I was in a bad mood or And I only say this because when I watched it again to prep for this episode, I fell in love with it in a way that I didn't upon seeing it initially. I don't know, like whatever happened that day When I first saw it, I was like, I was just like, yeah, that was beautiful and good, but I didn't love it. But now I'm just like, what was I thinking? Like, what was wrong with you, Kitlyn? You're just in the trenches? Who knows? It was a different world. I mean, tell me about it. It um So watching it again made me fall in love with it. I've seen it four times just to prep for this episode. I just kept rewatching because I was like, it's so nice and good and I can't wait to discuss it further. So with that, should I get into the recap? Ah, Yeah, let's get into the recap. We have a lot of characters to meet, so we can't be wasting any time. I was, I guess too to interrupt. Immediately, I was just like so it's so hard for any like Edny writer to write in this many characters and have you have a strong feel for who they are. And every time I have. I watched it three times to prepare, two times for scholarly reasons, once because I wasn't I was a little sad and I wanted to feel better, so I watched it. Um but just like how difficult that must have been, and it works so well? Yeah, I can't wait, absolutely and still a little fun fact um. The family Mad Miranda's introduction to the family is the Disney song with the most words ever. Really, I guess I but it's but it's not long, it's just is it just fast? It's really fast. And he puts a lot in there because he's wrapping through it. He's introducing you to the whole family. There's relationships, who are the dad's, how they met, the gifts. All of that is explained in that one song. A lot of exposition. I love a good exposition song. I hate a bad exposition song with like a special hate because it's it's unlike, first of all, what do you think I can't read? And this song sucks? This is the opposite of that it's an amazing exposition song. Yeah, um okay, So here's the recap. We open on a Boila Alma voiced by Maria Cecilio Botero, with her little granddaughter Mitabelle. A Boila is telling her about their family history and showing Mirabelle the candle that holds their miracle. It's also the source of the Madrigal family magic, which came to be when Alma was a young woman. She and her husband Pedro had to flee with their three babies from intruders some violent force. If I'm not mistaken, it's a reference to the Thousand Days War. Pedro is killed, Alma is about to be killed, but the candle she's holding creates a miracle, a secret place to seek refuge, from which a magical house, Casita, rises up and the house well because he just kind of a character the story, much like New York in every boring movie and every rom com. Yes, Casita is definitely one of the characters. It seems to be kind of like alive and anthropomorphic. The candle also blesses almost three children with a magical power, so when they reach a certain age, the children open a door in Casita and it gives them their special gift, and the door also leads them to their new bedroom. And then when those three children grow up and have kids of their own, those kids are also blessed with a magical gift, so it gets passed down throughout the generations. And now it's Mirabelle's time to receive her gift. But we flash forward to Mirabell as a teenager voiced by Stephanie Beatrice, and we meet the entire Madrigal family and learn about all of their magical gifts in this exposition song that we were just talking about where Metabelle's tia Peppa her mood affects the weather. TiO Bruno, we don't talk about Bruno sing it I cannot sing um Bruno though he left and kind of estranged himself from the family, but before he did that, he seemed to be able to see into the future, but he was seeing some weird stuff. And also he's voiced by John Leguizamo. Mirabelle's mother, Julieta, cures people with her food. Metabelle's cousin Dolores, can hear the quietest sounds. Cousin Camillo can shape shift. Meta Bell's sister Isabella is beautiful and perfect and creates beautiful flowers. Her sister Luisa is very physically strong. And then the kids in the village keep asking Metall what her special gift is and it's revealed that she was not given a gift, which she's like, I'm okay with this, but no one really takes her seriously, especially her aboila so um. Today is the day that Metabelle's cousin, Antonio is to receive his special gift. It's time for the ceremony. The family and community gather around little Antonio opens his door. We also see a flashback of Metabelle as a child trying to open her door, but it disappears back to Antonio. His door works and his gift is being able to communicate with animals. I love Antonio so much. Thinking cute. It's really cute. It knocks me out, and and I love that he's kind of um, I'm probably to date myself, but um, he's kind of the second coming of Eliza Thornberry, kind of the Uh did anyone watch to the Wild Thornberry Is? It was a cartoon on Nickelodeon about a little girl who could talk to animals. And was constantly saving the entire world by like having a quick chat with a with a snake. Fun. So Antonio has uh talking to animal vibes, which is the superpower I would want my cultural friends for this power is Eddie Murphy Dr Doolittle. Okay, look, so everyone has their version of and they're all very high brow. Of course Antonio is the best of them all, bell because he's the truly the cutest character I've ever seen in my entire life. Wow, it's sickening. Okay, So he gets his gift and everyone celebrates, but Mirabelle is feeling especially inadequate. She sings a song about how she's waiting on a miracle and just then the house Casita starts to crack and break in the candle light flickers. Something's very wrong, but Mutable is the only one who sees this, and then everything returns to normal and aboila. Alma doesn't believe her, or seems not to, but then Mutable overhears a boila sort of like praying. She's worried about the miracle and the magic and that it is dying. So Mirabelle resolves to save the miracle. She starts by trying to figure out what is happening to the magic, So she goes to cousin Dolores, who again can hear very well, to see if Dolores has overheard anything. Did you guys see that Dolores might get some sort of like spinoff series? No, I heard, I did, nothing confirmed, but I would watch the hell out of that. There are definitely a lot of people who would love a Disney Plus series to continue the story of the family members. Do do a series for every character, right, like, I'll sign on for the next ten years of watching Ship. Sure every every m cuth character is having their own spin off? Why not Encanto? And they're mostly boring? Yeah? Okay, So Dolores directs her to Mirabelle's sister Luisa voy by Jessica Daro, who seems to know something but pretends like she doesn't. But then she sings a song about how much pressure she's under to be strong and to carry so many burdens, how she attaches all of her self worth to whether or not she can stay strong, and then Luisa reveals that while mirabel was seeing the cracks on the house, Luisa felt weak, as if the magic was deteriorating. And also one time she overheard the parents talking about how Teo Bruno had a vision about this, but no one really knows what the vision was, uh, and then he left. So if Mirabel is looking for answers, she should go to Bruno's tower and try to find the vision. So she does. She sneaks into Bruno's room and eventually finds the vision, which kind of like physically manifested on a piece of green glass. It's broken into a bunch of shards, so she pieces a few of the shards together, and the image she sees is of herself, so she grabs the pieces. She goes back to her room, where she crosses paths with her Tia Pepper and Teo Felix and tries to ask them about Bruno. And then we get the we don't talk about Bruno's song The Bop of the Century takes off another exposition song. Yes, yeah, but again another exposition Bob Male and Miranda. You know, people have their opinions, but the man knows what he's doing. I think they all made the billboard top one hundred, and I think Bruno did get to number one. Oh my god, I'm not surprised. That's the best. Um. I know that it's a very popular song and I really like it, But my favorite song of the movie is Surface Pressure. That is the bop of the movie. I think I was the only person in the theater. Probably not, but I wet when I heard that song because I could relate to that character so much as a first generation American, and I definitely saw it around TikTok. A lot of people resonated with her character and that song. Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about it more. Yeah, that felt like that should have been the bop. If there was justice in the world, that would have been the number one. Yeah. Um. So this is when we get the we don't talk about Bruno song, where we learn that Bruno had all these visions of the future. A lot of them were like ominous and kind of negative, so people thought that he made bad things happen, so he left. Then Mirabell puts all the rest of the shards of the vision together, and the images of her standing in front of the broken house, which she interprets as she is the reason Casita is cracking and the magic is fading, which Dolores discovers because she can hear everything, and she's also a big gossip, so word spread. That shot of her is so funny, were it like it's like, I know, I'm going to disagree with that. Yeah, I disagree that she's a gossip. See, it hadn't been established. If she had heard all these things, she could have used it to her advantage as a gossip to like expose other things and and help herself in a situation. I think that what drove her to actually say something was the danger that was bringing to the family. And it has been instilled in every single member of this family that their powers, their family are the most important thing, the most precious thing, above everything else, and I think that's what drove her to share that, as opposed to sharing other things that she may have overheard. That makes sense because she hadn't been established as a gossip prior to that, and I was I wasn't totally clear why they were certain she would tell everyone this, But that explanation makes a lot of sense. So just my opinion, I'm sure a lot of people would agree, but that I like it. But you're right, she doesn't have a history of that, and then this would have been like so much of this could have been information she had like long before any of this right true. So Dolores discovers this, so she tells Camillo, who tells his dad, who tells Tia Peppa. This is all happening at Isabella's engagement party because this guy, Mariano Gusman, is about to propose to Isabella. But everything falls apart during this dinner. People are freaking out and everyone blames it on Metabelle. But then Mirabelle discovers a secret passage in the house and she finds TiO Bruno, who has been living in a secret room in like the walls of the house this whole time, Phantom of the Opera style, except without the scary stuff, like if the Phantom of the Opera was really chill and funny and just had a bunch of yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So he felt like his gift was hurting the family, but he loves his family, so he didn't want to actually leave. Meta Bell tries to get clarity on the vision, and Bruno tells her that he saw the magic fading, the house breaking, and he saw Mitabelle, but the vision was different depending on how you looked at it. Sometimes the house looks broken sometimes not either way. Bruno knew that his family would assume the worst if they saw it, so he destroyed the vision and went into hiding to protect Metabelle. So she's like, well, Bruno, since this vision is so unclear, have another vision, and so he does. His ritual has another vision. At first it seems like it's the same one as before, but then they noticed something different, a butterfly, and then they see the candle burning brighter, and it's because Metabelle embraces hugs her sister Isabella. So now meta Bell has to go to Isabella to try to make amends with her, to like save the magic. So Metabell goes to Isabella tries to embrace her. Easta Bell is like, I hate you. But then instead of like making one of her perfect flowers that she always creates, she makes a cactus and she she loves this. She's like, oh, I made something new and different and it's not perfect, And she sings a song about how she's also been under so much pressure to be perfect and she just wants to be able to express herself the way that she wants to, which we'll get back to because it is the song of the summer winter and sprain. I feel maybe every song is the best song ever made. But yes so, And because Metabell kind of helped her with this like discovery of her expression, she is really grateful to Mirabell. So they hug. And even though it's clear that Mirabelle is in the vision because she's the one who is going to save the miracle, that has become clear, Aboila still thinks Mirabell is ruining everything and hurting the family, and Mirabelle is like, no, Aboila, You're the one who's hurting the family. And then the house fully breaks and crumbles to the ground. The encanto is broken, everyone's powers are gone, and their house is in ruins, looking like we're at the end of the second act. It's almost like it's the second act low point. Things can't get much whereas can they? And then and then so in all the confusion, Mirabell sneaks off and a boila Alma finds her at the river where Alma was first given the miracle all those years ago. We flash back to Alma and Pedro meeting, falling in love, starting their family, fleeing to find safety, and again we see the miracle saving Alma. She raises her babies on her own and all admits to Mirabelle that she had lost sight of who the miracle was for. It's for her family, and she realizes that the miracle isn't the magic, it's her family. Her family is the miracle. So she apologizes to Mirabelle and realizes that the magic was broken because of her, and Mirabelle was like, yeah, but we only have a family in the first place because of you. A boil, and so they have this tender reconciliation and then Bruno shows up and Alma also apologizes to him. So beautiful between the whole third act is just like cry Cry Cry. The new ones. By the way, that's that's the biggest miracle to have a Colombian mother apologized to her kids. That's the biggest miracle in the Felon the True and contem Then they all returned to the rubble of their house and with the help of the community, they rebuild Casita. The family gives Mutabell a door knob. We are all cry cry, crying, and when Mutable puts the door knob into place, Casita comes back to life. Everyone gets their gift back and the whole family and community rejoices, and that's the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss, and we're back. Can I say I wish okay this is I'll start with just an off the cuff, a little observation. I really loved how this movie took care for characters to apologize to each other who were owed apologies, and not to stand up for a male character right away. I feel like Bruno is owed a bit harder if an a apology. He was gone for a long time, and like his mother did apologize to him and his sisters were thrilled to see him. But I was like, guys, he's been gone for what fifteen years? And everyone's like probably whoops. And I was like, like I mentioned, that was a lot. That was that apology. That was a lot. A lot of Colombian children around the world were like, ah, I wish you know, I'll take that. I would have shaken up. You're good, I'm good, Like yeah, looked in the walls for ten years but got the apology. All good. Okay, where do we want to start? Yeah, Jessica, is there anywhere you'd you'd like to start. We've got so much to discuss. Oh my gosh, there is so much discuss I think the biggest conversation that I think that I um. I got a lot of comments about the film, and a lot of the things were brought up is the trauma that our families, Columbian families specifically, but so many families around the world, the trauma that's passed down because of displacement and because of violence. I think it was it was so unexpected for me to see this. I knew this film would be about Columbia and they would put Columbian cultural and maybe a little historical, but the fact that we cover, uh, the Hundred Days War, that's basically what started this whole thing. To talk about that, but then the trauma that you see passed down through generations, I think it's such an important thing to discuss, to look at and to talk through. I certainly saw it in my family. I mentioned that in one of my YouTube videos that although you know that happened in the late eight hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, we still talk about it in my family because it moved our families around. So I have where we all grew up in one village one town. Now we have family and this part of the country, and we a family in that part of the country. And I think it's certainly relevant to a lot of what's happening today because there's a lot of displacement due to due to violence and due too many other things. So I thought it was ingenious really to have that be the kickoff of this story. Yeah, I was not expecting that because so many Disney movies are just they're rooted in fairy tales, which like might have some like vague historical references or context, but it's based on mostly fiction, whereas this movie is like, yeah, pulling from you know, historical events and really specific context that informs so much of the movie, so much of the family dynamics and generational trauma. And it was unexpected but like really compelling and moving. Yeah it felt. Um. I feel like there are a handful of Disney movies that begin with like a traumatic event as like I don't know why I'm thinking of the beginning of The Hunchback of Notre doc but I am, but like something terrible, A family member is lost, people are separated, but what never happens and what I love what this movie does with such thoughtfulness and specificity to my knowledge, is that it brings that theme back where normally it's just like inciting incidents someone does and that's kind of all you get, but bringing it back and rooting it in history, and then also like taking the the care to I'm just starting to think if I've ever seen a kids movie that takes time to do this that like shows that, yes, Mirabel's grandmother has been careless with people's feelings and like should be called out for that, but mirabel and as part of growing up, needs to understand the context of where that pain comes from instead of just because I thought it would have been so easy to do. We've been I feel like we've been talking about this on the show a lot, just kind of girl boss character decisions that are very rooted in the individual of like screw you, mom, I'm gonna be a dancer, or like you know that thing where it's like the older generation's pain and experiences are just cast off as like you're old, you don't get it. And like this movie is so nuanced where it's like we are rooting for Mirabelle when she stands up for herself because that is something she hasn't been able to do so far, but also she is open to hearing what her family's history is and like work on it together. And I just there's I I can't think of a lot of movies that do that with such care. It's beautiful. Oh absolutely, And I'm going to come out and say it, I am in Abilla almost stand. I love her character. I love her so much, and I think a big reason is because I have an Abilla alm My family, and in order for me to fully love someone, I have to understand the context. I have to understand where they came from, what happened to them, what trauma they've lived through that has made them that way, that makes them maybe a little bit colder, maybe a little bitter, maybe a little more stern. But seeing especially, I just love the way that you see, you know, in quote unquote what happened in the beginning of the film, but then you really see it through her eyes what happened, and the difference between the trauma that you see when she's finally opening up and explaining it or showing us what really happened and how violent it was and how vicious. I also appreciate that the directors have been very open with communicating with fans, especially Jared Bush. He is constantly answering questions on Twitter. And it's through these tweets that I got confirmation from Jared that like, listen to this. Okay, this this story when she gives birth right, that's exactly one year after the war broke out. So she gives birth through three kids, they flee their town, she hikes a Columbian mountain, her husband is killed in front of her eyes, and she's given a miracle and then becomes the facto leader of this entire community on the same day the same time. Wow. So, like, I don't care how much yoga you do and meditation, how zen you are, that is going to mess you up. Yeah, And so I appreciated that story so much more and you can understand her, and I hope it helps people understand her more when you realize all of that happened to this one person and why she holds onto her family and the miracle, which she thinks is the protection that violence is still out there, that violence lasted in Columbia for a very long time, and other types of hardships happened in that country, and that's all just that's just across that mountain. So you have to understand all of that to understand why she holds on so tightly to her family and why she is the way that she is. Right because a boiler almost the whole thing is protecting her family, protecting the home that saved her from being killed and allowed her to raise a family in this you know, safe haven. So no wonder she has such a strong investment in the thing that protected her from this violence, and you know, and extends it to her whole community too. I love that it's not just her immediate family who's protected, it's this entire community that she's kind of the the unofficial leader of and it's like she's their protector. And I feel like it's at first and even as a viewer because I was so like the best um because I'm four years old when the first time I watch a movie, But like the how you know, if you don't have the context for who she is, that incredible pressure is like easy to overlook, which is true of a lot of like matriarchs in particular. And I also loved how the middle generation, the parents or I guess Mirabell's parents and aunts and uncles like where they fell and where normally I feel like in Disney movies it's like parents and children, and this the parents are kind of middle people in a way in like mediating this a bit on the sidelines, Yeah, which I thought, I mean, I wouldn't outside of Teo Bruno. I feel like, you know, he's the most prominent. But I liked how those characters were often sort of used as a way of bridging where Abela was coming from from versus Mirabelle's frustrations. And it just works to to kind of return to the generational trauma that informs this story. So a friend of the show, Jose Maria Luna, also did a video essay on this movie and he talked he spoke a lot about about what we see on screen regarding Colombian culture and you know, the representation of Columbia in this movie, and it's and he explained that it's not just the the food, the geography, the architecture, the plant and animal life, the art, clothing, music, characters, gestures and expressions, which he felt was all very authentic. The thing that screamed Colombian the most was what you were talking about, Jessica, as far as the themes of like dealing with trauma, trying to heal a broken community, because it's a country with a very complicated history fraught with violence, and that violence was mostly a result of colonization, ethnic cleansing, extremist political movements, killing and violently displacing people. So it's this again history fraught with violence that affects every person from Columbia or every person with family from Colombia. So that is like really what made this movie feel Colombian to people who would recognize that because like I, you know, prior to seeing this movie or researching for this episode, I the only things I knew about Columbia were what you tend to see in media, which is like drug cartels and like, and obviously knew that was like blown out of proportion and that you can't trust most media to represent, especially American media, to represent like a South American country responsibly anything authentically. Yeah, so there was a lot that I didn't totally know about Colombian history, and upon again, like researching for this episode, I learned a lot more. But um and I now have an even greater appreciation for the story for incorporating all this historical and cultural context so meaningfully in a way that because you can like, and we'll talk about this, but like the directors of the movie, it's It's three People, Jared Bush Byron Howard, and it was co directed by Shari's Castro Smith, um, who I think was brought on a bit after the fact. And we'll talk about that. But um, I was like, are these two white guy Americans? Like how do you know? Which is the case for almost every Disney animated movie, because that was we had this same discussion six six years ago when Moanna came out. We're just like why why and and and for I mean, well, well, we'll talk about the production and it seems like everyone tried to but it's just like, but why but why two white guys? I mean, we know why, but right right, you don't expect that a movie directed I too white guys are going to really fully incorporate all of the historical and cultural context as well as they seem to have done. But they seem too so um, but you're but you're absolutely right. You know, growing up, when I would tell people that I was Columbian, what can I show them that says, Hey, here's where my family is from I didn't have anything. I didn't have anything because everything that was out there was drug cartels, and even to this day, what is out there, it's still the same kind of violence, drug cartels. You know, a guy who's been dead for like thirty years, Like that's all that is ever represented in media. And so I think that's one of the reasons why I certainly watched this film feeling like a four year old, because I was so excited that I have finally something that I can share and say, like, this is where we come from. Look at all these you know, beautiful plants and animals, and look at the food and listen to the music, and this is where your family is from. And it feels like it represents the people of Columbia in a way the most media doesn't. Where you have, you know, you see a multi generational Latin X family, You have indigenous representation, You have Afro latin X representation in Felix and his kids are mixed Afro Indigenous characters, and the movie seems appropriately cast as well, where like Afro Ladina characters are being voiced by Afro Latina actors. For example, you have representation of different body types, especially with the female characters. This is something we talk about all the time, where like an animation, male characters tend to be you know, animated any which way, like a huge variety of body shapes and sizes, whereas the women tend to be you know, like Barbie esque, uh in their design and animation sexy Ghost, Sexy Ghost and Ghostbusters. Why this is most notable with Lisa. But you have different body types represented on screen in the female characters, while also like not defining any character by their body type or like you get. Obviously, Louisa's strength is a huge element of her character, but that is not what defines her. What defines her is um the Bob of the movie, and you know her her struggle to hold everything together. And yeah, I um, I think we talked about this one we were prepping for this, but I really loved learning about the production of this movie and how this movie forced new technology in order to better represent a wider particularly with hair. This is I heard, the first movie that is inclusive of every hair texture, which the technology because animation, as we've discussed many times, is so centered on white protagonists, as is most media, still that the technology literally did not exist to animate every hair texture. And so one of the I mean, of the many incredible legacies of this movie that technology now exists. It started I guess the it was the whole thing, but it like started back with Tangled, the hair movie. Uh, and then in Moana they had to develop technology that allowed them to authentically animate just darker hair in general because it's such a blonde, you know, white princess centric franchise at Disney. And then in Conto they continued to push the technology even further. So now um, the studio and animators everywhere have a very easy, accessible tool that will allow them to animate every hair texture, which is huge and as an animation nerd, I was very excited to see that. I love it. Yeah, beautiful. Um. Another thinging the and this has been pointed out before and by you, Jessica in in one of your videos about Incanto, but another thing that uh makes this movie feel especially Colombian is um so magical realism um is something that is very prominent in Colombian fiction literature, just like storytelling that takes place among family and and friends, stories that get passed down and most notably the work of Gabrielle Garcia Marquez, who of course wrote A hundred Years of Solitude, and it seems as though the movie in Kanto was loosely inspired by that novel UM. A lot of like narrative liberties were taken, but there's there are different parallels that you can clearly draw that exists across both works UM as far as like different characters being similar in UM the movie in the book UM yellow butterflies being a motif in both, there's like interjet narrational tension and trauma. There's all these like kind of common elements across both this movie and the book one hundred Years of Solitude. So I just wanted to point that out. Yeah, absolutely, And that's one of the first things that I wanted to cover in my videos because I feel like it can be a difficult film to understand if you don't understand that aspect of the inspiration behind and Khanto and Khanto is not magical realism, but it is inspired by magical realism because magical realism is so important in the Colombian, you know world. So we see elements of things that were specifically written by the butterflies and the different generations of family A hundred years of Solitude. Actually, originally this story was going to go through a hundred years of one family and Kanto was yes. And so anyone who wants to go more in depth into this, I really encourage you to look at um the book uh oh, I forget the name now, but it's it's a book about the making of the film. Do you see some of the original characters animated and how they combine certain characters together too, so that it's just these three generations. But it was going to go originally over a hundred years. Um. But I think one of the important things that when people were telling me that they didn't understand it or they didn't get it, or it's it's mainly because in magical realism, things are magical and that's just the way that they are. There's no real explanation behind it. It's just this person has lived a thousand years and okay, and so we just it's just accepted. And I think there's elements of that in Incanto, like the house is alive and you don't need to know why or who it is. The house is just alive and it interacts with the family members. Um. So once you grasp that explanation, I feel like it's more becomes a little more comfortable to accept the story a little bit. And that does feel it feels like that fits in very cleanly with like the Disney tradition, but in a very culturally specific way. I loved the way that the house is animated is so cool. The book is called the Art of Incanto. It just came to me. It's not some complicated title. It's called the Art of Incanto. The I'm adding I want Kanto stuff. Yeah, I wanted to um and and I learned about this in part again, Jessica, from your series of videos about Encanto, about the process of how because anytime a movie like Encanto that is directed by two white guys and ends up being good, you're like, Okay, let's let's follow this. How did this happen? Um? Because it's never because two white guys were automatically like, I'm so committed to doing you know. So, UM, I wanted to talk about the development process of this movie a little bit before we jump into the character Yer's proper. So these are the guys I believe that co directed um copaganda masterpiece Zootopia eclipsed only by Pop Patrol as UM this developing generations defining copaganda, But it sounds like um Incanto went through quite a few different versions before it arrived at this like you're saying, Jessica the three generation Colombian story lin Man, while Miranda was brought on very early, and it sounds like was the one to push for not just a full blown musical, but also for a full cast of the family, which I feel like is very unusual for a Disney movie to have so many um main characters. And then they also as production continued, I think realized even though I'm like, how did you not realize on the first day? But whatever, uh that they needed to do quite a bit of consulting work and and so I wanted to talk about uh that a little bit and how they put together what was it called the the Colombian Cultural trust Trusts. Yeah, so I think, like a lot of movies, there was a lot, quite a bit of research done, But in terms of how many people were paid to consult on this movie, it sounds like it really shows where they had a um what's the word for flower person a botany consulting, Yes, to make sure that Isabel's storyline was not just beautiful Disney Girl. It was authentically Colombian and all the flowers that were being shown, and they brought in Teri's Castro Smith, who I also wanted to talk. So she is I believe Cuban American. Yes, she's not Colombian, but did have kind of a huge Her career is kind of fascinating. I had not learned very much about her before, but she like started as an she was like an actor player, right, and then um sort of pivoted to being a full time writer and this was sort of her huge break. Um. So they did bring in a Latina woman writer, but she wasn't there from the very beginning, right. But and specifically because she writes about magical realism, where she incorporates magical realism in her works, that's why they decided to work with her. Yeah. So what I from what I read and understand is that Jared Bush and Byron Howard were like, Hmmm, we're going to write the first Latin a Disney animated musical. What do we do? Like they weren't sure what the story should be or what country to set it in, but they were collaborators with two filmmakers, One Rendon and Natalie Osma, who are both Colombian, and they were like, well, why don't you go to Columbia. So Jared Byron, Juan, Natalie, and Lynn Manuel Miranda went to Columbia, did some research, started to conceive the story. From there, One and Natalie were then kind of brought on as consultants for the film, and then Charis who started out as a co writer. Nine months into I'm not sure if it was like the development or production or exactly what stage, but at some point Jared Bush was like, hey, Scheriz, why don't you co direct this with us? Which felt like a similar trajectory as Um. We talked about this for Coco, where director Lee Unkridge, who is like, you know, legacy Pixar white Man director, was like, I'm gonna make Coco. And then um Adrian Molina, who started out as I think a conceptual artist or or um not a writer or co director on the movie, but he eventually became the those things because he just had so much insight about Mexican culture and family dynamics and things like that that Leonor kind of realized, oh, I'm maybe a little out of my depth here. Let me bring on a collaborator to like I would always take them two years to be like, perhaps I'm out of my depth, Like and I'm very glad that, you know, Jared bush Is is enthusiastic and wants to interact with fans, and he seems like a lovely person. I just like, I'm very ready for this era of like two white directors realized two years into production that maybe they're not the appropriate director, and then they bring in a co director. And I feel like, I I hope that we are sort of exiting that era with I mean, we we just covered Turning Red, which was completely Domy. She's you know, a lot of her life experience and commenting on her own culture, and like, it just feels like we need to get to a point where that is the standard because she co wrote and directed that movie rather than like being brought on a year or two later. If anything, it'll save them money, to save them money not having to pay all those consultants. It'll save time because like the movie doesn't need to be in development hell for three years if you just bring on people who like if if people who already know what they're talking about are the people to conceive and write these stories and then direct them like it saves time and money and everything and everything will be a development hell forever. But it does seem like it will save a lot of time and money to not have to like hire people to explain the movie that the guys are directed to the guys directing it, who probably also cost a shipload of money because they directed the animal capaganda movie, so probably cost a lot to hire. Right again, all due respect, uh, but yeah, it it seems like a very round about Hollywood way to uphold a system that is costing the money time and you would get I mean, this movie is absolutely incredible, but if you know, if if you had just had a Colombian animation director from the beginning, how much easier and and maybe even better with the final product. B But it does seem I mean, I will not to hand it to a multi bajillion dollar corporation, but it does seem like there is a concerted effort going on within that company to make sure that there are non white and non male filmmakers that are being actively mentored to take on because to take on projects of this size. But I just I'm like, Okay, let's get to the era where it's like we don't need this like Middleman, legacy, white guy director. Yes, But the question I always come back to is, yeah, Disney is putting in an effort to be more inclusive in their storytelling and the people they hire to tell stories. But is it only because that's a hot and profitable thing right now and this company just wants to turn a profit. And yes, of course, I mean yes, I mean for sure, maybe it's partly a company that does have a very nasty history of racism, anti Semitism, all kinds of really nasty things that they put into their movies targeted at children and families. Maybe they are like, oh, we should course correct this. But is it course correcting for the right reasons? You know, I think there's individuals within that company that certainly feel that way and have a vested artistic interest in doing that. But yeah, I know, like I'm not, no one's going to argue like Disney famously anti capitalist, like they they want money. I think what is important is, because that is always going to be the situation with Knee, is them being able to realize that. I mean, in Conto, it was gigantically stupendously successful, and as was Mowanna, as was Coco, and it's like these there's a huge demand for stories that do not center around the same you know, four white French people or whatever that they've been making movies about for five hundred years. So, you know, because they're freaky scary capitalists, I want them to put that capital in the hands of the right people, in the right directors of stuff, for sure. I mean, how many times are we going to say Latinos are in Like when Jennifer Lopez and Ricky Marcot Valley Latinos it's the new thing. Guess yeah, guess what, Maybe we might be in always and so let's let's just keep going. Maybe it's a long term thing, which is like why it's so important to have people like I mean, as incredibly important as it was to have the consulting team built out for this off you to work the way it did. It's like, we need more Latino people in like leadership roles so that you can't just be like, actually, this moment is over and we're gonna have these two white guys go back to animal capaganda because it does feel like that by by keeping these sorts of patterns and systems in place, Disney's giving themselves, the freedom to opt in and out of UM giving a ship about not the same for white French people. Right, let's take another quick break and then come back for more discussion. But yeah, that that reminded me. I was telling a friend, I'm like, listen, I love Limanda as much as anybody. He's a genius. That's just like a fact. But he can't. He can't write everything. We can't. Someone else's doing the Cuban thing, the Colombian thing, like he can't do it for everybody, so record. Yeah. One of the one of the few criticisms I saw around this movie was um, and I mean I I just genuinely don't have the scope of knowledge to know, but that some of the songs like they wanted people wanted more authentic Colombian music worked into the soundtrack than was there, which again I'm not familiar enough with music native to Columbia to know. But I was curious of your thoughts on that, Jessica, Sure, I do have thoughts on that. Um, I think that, listen, it's a Disney musical. It's not going to be like, I don't know, I don't even know what to compare it to, where like everything like it's not like, um, like when there's a musical and it's all like Abba songs or it's all Beatles songs. You know that, like that's not going to happen. And I think I think lin Monel Miranda did do a really great job in this. He did a lot of research and so what he's been what he said in interviews, is that he took not only music that was born in Colombia, but that that is popular in Colombia, that it is in the Colombian world. So for example, like um, surface Pressure, it's it's uh, it's like a reggaeton song. Reggaeton wasn't born in Colombia, but it's definitely something that's heard all over Colombia. Isabel song is based on Rocuan Espanio from the nineties, which was huge in Columbia. There's a lot of Rocan Espanio bands from Columbia, so that was a way for him to incorporate Colombian style music and um the song by Carlos Bibs. I was shocked when I found out that Linn Ramira wrote that song. I could have sworn that that was just another Carlos Via song. If I would have heard it on the radio. I was like, Okay, I guess he must be out with a new album. Is that the No, that's some Columbia right, Okay, yes, yes? So um, so he clearly had You have to be a fan, he said he was a fan of Carlos Vibas. You have to have known that music in order to write a song in his style that goes so well with him. So um, there were even those songs that don't sound Colombian. There there is a Colombian element to it, but the part where you really get Columbian sound is through the score and U Jermaine Franco, the person who did the score, did an excellent job. I mean she brought an instruments that were made in Colombia in Joco. They had an Afro Colombian chorus sing background on it. So there definitely was elements. I think just people were expecting like all all like Gumbias or all those and we're maybe surprised by that. But I as you know, someone who who like who saw, um, what's the evil? Like I knew like it's not going to be all like Cuban styles to songs throughout the whole thing because that personally, I could see that being boring to someone else. If you're not from that culture, you may not have the appreciation of hearing those songs over and over or that style of music over and over again. So I think they did a really good job with making the score very traditional Colombian from all over Columbia, and then having the main musical numbers that Liman went met on the road be Colombian inspired or based on Columbia music that was popular throughout the years. Thank you, Yeah, I was, I was curious and and Limo ran the man can ride an earworm. Holy also shout out to the Titanic reference in surfers Pressure. Caitlyn and I are number one Titanic fans. Jessica, there's you see a very Titanic looking ship was approaching an iceberg, and then there's the lyric the ship doesn't serve hasn't heard how big the iceberg is, and then you see I think it's three donkeys playing like a string quartet on the deck of the ship. That really did it for me. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I was like, they did this for me and Jamie. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Embarrassing, how I was like, okaylen saw that exciting for us. I can't wait to talk about I guess that's all I have to say about it, but yes, I did notice just a shout out. Let's well, actually, before we move into the characters, Jessica, is there anything else you wanted to touch on or discuss about the way that Colombian culture is represented within the movie with any sort of specificity. I didn't want to move out of that too fast. Sure, and to continue the discussion about having, you know, white directors at the forefront of a movie that is not about their culture. I will say that I personally feel like they did a really good job. They were respectful about it, They knew what the burden was, and that they went out and did a lot of research because you can see it throughout the film. I think most of the people that I spoke to, I would say, more than of the comment that I got from people who were Colombian or Colombian descendants said that they saw their family reflected in there. They saw their homes um, they saw even like gestures, um, even the choreography, which the first time I saw it, I personally, I will speak for myself don't think about how that comes together. But um, they brought on a Colombian choreographer who's actually from my neighborhood, Jackson Heights. Jackson Heights has a rich Colombian population, John Leguiz almost from Jackson Heights, and so they hired Jamal Sims. He's the choreographer, but he bought on Kaye Martinez. And that's why those movements where you see the way that they you know, wave around their skirt the bodad like, that's truly Colombian. That's how we dance, the little the gestures of pointing to stuff with your lips, like, that's how you know when you get into those details, like do know that they did the work? Yeah? Yeah, I was reading about the choreography process because it's also just something I don't think about when it comes to animation at all because you're like, oh, yeah, so one had to do it, um, And it seems like they were. The choreographers were like involved in production, like way earlier than an animation choreographer normally would be just to make sure that like the like you're saying, like the emotions were authentic and also just like beautifully animated and it just and one of my favorite Columbian moments, and I talked about it in my video, is when meet but his father catches her with the vision and the lords sees them. He says, miracles. Do you guys know what that means? Oh? Is it? Because he was just trying to say it's the way that like English speaking people will say like sugar instead of ship. It's like him saying rite exactly exactly, and that is like I do that like that, We we do that. So it was you you you were hanging around with some colum means. I know you were. It's very funny, I know. I was like, I think I get this joke. Thanks two years of duelingo Spanish and shout out to my two Spanish tutors who I know listen to the podcast, Mercedes and Adriana. Yeah. Shall we get into the characters that story? Baby, There's so many good characters to discuss. Um, shall we start with Mirabelle. Let's do it, especially because so much of the movie and the story centers around female characters and their relationships with each other. Also was not totally expecting that to be such a like cornerstone of the narrative. But yeah, there's there's a lot so meta. Bell's whole thing is she is the one like non magic family member or at least of like the Madrials. You know, obviously her father and Teo Felix don't have magical powers because they married into the family, but she was expected to have a gift and she doesn't get one and then continues to deal with the aftermath of that throughout her life. I think she's a teenager. I think it's maybe like a decade after she um she was supposed to get her gift. She's and so you know, she's had like kind of a decade of like the community and like certain members of her family not taking her fully seriously. Relationships with her sisters have developed over the years in an interesting ways that will discuss, and her a Boila is like kind of the main perpetrator of this. I think kind of like repressed inadequacy that she feels where she tries so hard to impress her family, she tries so hard to impress her a Boila, and her A Boila is just like maybe you should just kind of stay out of the way and like probably secretly feel bitter that you don't have a gift and but don't like project that like keep that, keep that repressed please is like sort of the vibes I really like. I mean, it's it's just like such a just a character you don't see very often of like a character who is being asked to make herself small and be okay with it, and like kind of the toll that that takes on her over time, and like people pleaser representation is a strong, strong and mirror yes um and to have a whole song dedicated to like her whole I like, I want song. It's like I want to be seen as valuable to my family and to my community, and I want to like feel good about myself and like it seems like a lot of where her self esteem and where her like sense of value comes from is feeling valued by her community. And that is sort of a trend for the whole family. That's also something that comes up with Louise Suck quite a bit. It's like she needs to feel like she is being a productive addition to the family and to the community. And it's like breaks your heart from the very beginning, because Mirabel is extremely valuable to her family and her community. We see her doing all kinds of ship. She is beloved by the whole community, but it's but it's also very easy to see why she can't see that right away. And yeah, I just love her. Yeah, I really really enjoyed that scene of when the guy gives her the gift because she doesn't have any gifts, you know, but not special special That happens so much in our cultural They will point out your deficiencies in a loving way, though it's like it's totally fine, like no, I'm dying inside, but okay, right, And then you hear Mirabell's song Waiting on a Miracle, where she's like, I'm not fine, and I'm like, I also repress my emotions, but in a way that is more emotionally mature than I was when I was fifteen. She does not take that out on other people in the way I think that we often see teenage characters do, which I don't feel it's like necessarily good or bad. It's just different than what I'm used to seeing. Is like she I love her relationship with Antonio, where it could be so easy for her to see a kid that is about to get something that she did not get and take that anger out on them or create distance between the two of them. But she's so loving even though she still has to live in the nursery because she never I was like, well, let her out of that damn nursery. They build her a room of her own. But but I just I love her character so much because she is like a fully realized person and we know what she feels like, why she feels deficient, and also it's very clear that that's not actually true, and she still finds like a way to be very kind and empathetic towards people who can't extend her the same right away, which I think is you know, it's it's beautiful and it's also a burden all its own. In the movie actually explores that, because she does get her moment of being like a boil of fuck you like right, But then again, we also understand why a Boila is the way that she is because she's dealing with trauma that is so hard to deal with and and Mirabelle has the empathy and the capacity to like want to know and understand. I just she's a great she's a great characters, and I like that they're both the only Marias that don't have power like that, you're they're kind of like setting up like these are the matriarchs. Then this is the next one in line that you need someone who doesn't have power two guide the ship of the family guard the Titanic. Well not well, Yeah, that famously did not end very well. Ship that doesn't think right, Yeah I did. I like the elements of um that's always like a family story that I think it's like compelling to watch of an older generation looking at someone of the younger generation of being like I am in this picture and I don't like it kind of thing where it does seem like there is so much of a Boila in Mirabelle that she she can't know because she didn't know her Abela when she was younger, and being able to connect on those points and see their similarities and how I don't know, I feel like it's a you know, sometime sometimes someone in your family sees themselves in you and sees that as a threat or like a deficiency because of how they feel about themselves. And just so many, so many layers. We got a Shrek style onions. Okay, I was wondering when Shrek is gonna come up? Yeah, I find that relationship between Mirabelle and a Bola just like rich and complex, and the more the story unfolds, the more you understand where both characters are coming from. And again, because like as we discussed, Alma was violently displaced from her home, she lost her husband, was made the leader of this community in a single day, and then and then over the course of the next many years, had to raise three babies as a widowed mother, living in constant fear that it could happen all over again, because it very well could because of what was going on in Columbia at the time. And this is trauma that you can't help but like pass down to the next generations. And because a Boola is so concerned with losing this like safe haven, she is so hyper concentrated on like keeping the magic and like making sure it's it's there, and and so anyone who doesn't really have magic to contribute, she kind of feels like it's sort of in the way. So she feels like Mirabell doesn't. There's not much she can really do, which obviously weighs on Mirabelle, and she does so much, but then like she knows she has worth, like she's like I can help out, And so that's why she like sets out to like save the miracle, prove herself. You know, she's trying to live up to her family's expectations, which is like such a relatable thing for so many people. It's like, you know, like the pressure. And then these expectations and pressures are something that um Isabella and Luisa also feel, which they sing about beautifully in their songs. But so it's these three sisters all feeling the pressure and burden of these expectations and dealing with past trauma, and everyone's sort of bottling up their emotions. Everyone feels so much pressure to like be perfect and live up to these unrealistic expectations. It's just like, ah, there's so much right and continue to be worthy of the miracle because you don't, yeah, when that's going away. So that's another added pressure that will admas in and what she instills in her children. It's like, I don't know why I got this miracle. I don't know when it's going away, So we need to make sure that we are deserving of it exactly exactly. And then, like as we've discussed endlessly on the podcast at this point earlier Disney movies didn't have mother daughter or like daughter grandmother relationship, like any type of like mother figure and daughter relationships. And in this movie, you know, centers on the relationship between a young female character and the matriarch of the family, which it's a refreshing change of pace when it comes to Disney movies. And I would say it's just an interesting dynamic that doesn't get explored enough in movies in general, So that that relationship is like at the crux of the movie is really cool. I really Yeah. The last thing I had about Mirabell's relationship with a Boila is just there's there's so many similar The more I watched the movie, the more you're like, oh, these two are so similar. Like one of Aboila and Mirabelle's huge similarities is compartmentalizing in the moment and then privately expressing their frustration and emotion, which Mirabel doesn't even seem to really realize Aboila is doing until she overhears a Boila talking about how because a Boila has to, Mirabel realizes over the course of the movie put up such a strong front of like everything is fine, which is exactly what mirabel does that you know, she seems to think that her Aboila does not realize that something is incredibly wrong, and it isn't until she overhears her a boiler that she's like, oh, a Boila does know, but she just can't acknowledge it because it's just it's too much, and acknowledging it makes it real and if it's real, the magic will go away and right yeah, which is like such a team in throughout the entire family, but I think particularly with the women in this family, because it also kind of popped for me with certainly with mirabel sisters, but also with Tia Peppa, whose whole power is she controls the weather, which is like visually so fun, but also like there are like all of these moments and I feel like we've seen other characters I'm trying to think of the movie that's like rattling around in the back of my head, but controlling the weather as sort of a way of like you have to control your emotions or it will affect your whole community in a negative way, and just yet another way to sort of use the story and the imagery to show how controlled the emotions have to be in order to or that's how they operate, at least at the beginning of the movie, to uphold this miracle um and like the sacrifices that come with it. What I will say, what I really enjoyed about it. But yes, that's all really true. But it was surprising to me and even shocking too. I think I was watching it with my aunt that she talks back to with that like, what do you want for me? You're lucky? It's not you know this. I remember watching her with my aunt and my a went and I was like, yeah, because we don't do that. We don't do that. So even though she yes, she needs to control her emotions obviously, but the fact that she talks back, you know, there's some strong women in this film. Yeah, she definitely gets And also it's like I liked I don't know, I'm like and I feel like sometimes we hand it to male characters for the bare minimum, But I just liked how much Felix loved her and like didn't give a ship that Like there was a hurricane on their their wedding and he was like, yeah, I guess that that's what's being married, Like what being with you was just like and I just I loved. You don't get a lot of their relationship mostly and we don't talk about Bruno. I feel like this is the most time you get to spend with them. But I just thought their relationship was very sweet and they were so and also taller wife representation. We love to see it. She is taller than her husband. Yes, yeah, yeah. Can we talk about Metabel's relationship relationships with her sisters starting with um, let's start with Isabella where they don't get along. It feels to me like a you know, familiar sibling rivalry where Isabella kind of echoes, they're Aboila's feelings that Mirabel is kind of in the way. And then Mutabelle seems to sort of resent Isabella for being so perfect, and she thinks that Isabella is selfish and entitled. But we learned that Isabella feels this pressure to please her family, like she was going to marry that guy, Mariano and have babies with him even though she didn't want to. But that's what a Boila wanted. She wants to keep the family miracle, going into pass the magic down generation after generation, so she was gonna basically the sacrifice for the family. And then she sings her song, which you know me about helps inspire this shift in her character where she starts um making cactuses and you know, prickly sharp plans instead of these beautiful flowers that I mean cactus is also beautiful, but like things have shifted, and she's singing about how she wants to express herself more authentically than Mirabel realizes that she misunderstood Isabella for her entire life, basically that she was like bottling up so much and and putting on this kind of facade of perfection when she actually wanted to be way more chaotic maybe or just like make her own decisions. And and that that that the sisters are able to again just like operating on a way higher maturity level than I was at fifteen, able to identify like, oh, we are reacting to this pressure put up on us very differently. And I mean it is like a really for for Mirabel has to be a traumatic thing to be constantly told you know, your sister is fundamentally better than you because of how she looks and because of how she is, and and that is abs I mean, I is mirrable. She the youngest, or she the middle child, she she has middle child energy to me, but understood her as she's the youngest. She's the youngest, she's the youngest of the three. Um, but just to be told like that, yeah, that your older sibling is just fundamentally better than you. And of course, because you're like teenagers, the older sibling is going to be like, yeah, and I'm better than you. And I was sort of I wasn't sure at the beginning what direction they were going to take Isabel in because there was like a direction I saw going that I would not have liked as much as what happens, which is like, I don't know, like Disney has like this I think tendency and more recent years to like want to like comment on its past work. And so Isabel is a character that we would have, you know, like the the beautiful, like chosen one stereotype. Um is a character that is like very often glorified in Disney movies. And and so I was sort of wondering, like, is she just being presented as the villain, because this is who Disney would normally consider the hero, But it goes way deeper than that, and it's like, I just love this movie does so much in such a short amount of time to develop, like, well, what would that feel like to have that pressure put on you? And how how would you be? I mean, she's compartmentalizing all sorts of ship as well because of the pressure being put on her and the fact that she and her younger sister can meet each other in the middle and be able to see and and respect that and want something different for themselves. I just it's great totally. And then similarly with Mirabelle's other sister, Luisa, she is under this intense pressure or feels intense pressure to basically do everything for the family and the whole community, anything that will require physical strength. She's like, I have to do it. Everyone's relying on me. I have to do it. And she sings in her song about how she places so much of her self worth, if not all of her self worth, on whether she can be of service to people and help people, and that she carries such a large burden and never has a chance to like take a break and have and like relax, and she confides in Mirabelle. So both of the sisters songs are basically mirrabel showing up and being like anything you wanna share any like do you want to talk and then they're like, oh my god, thank you, so I need to get this off my chest and they like have these wonderful either confiding in Mirabelle or a reconciliation and and I don't know, I was. I wasn't expecting that either. To have you know, complicated relationships between sisters again another thing that you don't see in in Disney movies, especially in most media in general. But then uh, to have those relationships change over the course of the story. And for like the way that mirabel is to allow her sisters to kind of grow and evolve as people because they like, I don't know, Merbell just like helps people look inward and communicate and express her special gift. Yeah, funny, funnily not that she doesn't share her own things, what she's feeling internally, but she's amazing at getting other people to finally let out what they've needed to let out. And you know, you said you weren't expecting that. I was. I certainly was not expecting it. When I'm sitting in that theater, like, okay, let's see how they represent Colombia and talk about areas and the coffee. And then there's this character who just like spoke to me and like said everything that I've been feeling forever, being like the older responsible child, where you you're you're in the accountant, you're the lawyer, you're you're looking at I think that's why it resonates with so many people, like I saw on TikTok, a lot of like older kids, a lot of first generation Americans or like they have all these responsibilities, all these pressure on them to do certain things, and that I mean, I was under my mask. I was just I lost it when I heard that song. It was incredible. Luisa song, Yeah, Luisa song. And actually Linnomidana said that he had his older sister in mind when he wrote it because she he saw how much under pressure their parents, how much pressure the parents put on his older sister, and so that that inspired that character. That that song is the hint of the movie. And I again, I was very curious what they were going to do with Luis's character. And I mean, I guess the only this is like a very very small grip, but like the in the song, because it's a Disney story and like the storytelling sometimes has to be pretty I get. I don't know, but they kept kind of referring to Isabel and Luisa as beauty and braun and there are, and then sometimes I'm just like, but but Luisa is beautiful. Like I wish that there was that was at least acknowledged, even in like, because I do appreciate that Luisa's power is concentrated in her body in a lot of ways where it's like she has super strength. And then I would say, on top of that, she has a really strong drive to help other people, because outside of that, what is super strengthful if you're not like using it to help other people seems to be kind of her ethos um. And I was really happy to see that, Like there was a lot of female bodybuilders or just like physically strong women, We're really really happy to have a character like Louisa be celebrated and complicated and and have all these different facets to her because, like I mean, this is like the history of animation and American entertainment in general, Like there's twenty years ago, I feel like Louisa would have been treated very differently based on her body type. And so the fact that this movie, I mean again, it's like cheering someone on for giving you pebbles but like the fact that she is strong and that that is celebrated by the movie and it's not the only thing we know about her, which I feel like would have been even a movie ten years ago, um would have like made either a joke of that or like had that be the only thing we would know about Luisa. And I like that the movie, you know, is concentrated on like, well, her real thing is this incredible pressure that she's under and how that has affected her, and how that causes her to like, you know, sort of want to ignore what's right in front of her, because if the house is falling apart, then what is her purpose? So yeah, she's Yeah. And then just with these fleshed out female characters and the flesh out relationships between them. Also, we haven't really talked that much yet about Meta Bell's mom, Julietta. She doesn't get that much screen time, but I really like her character and her relationship with Meta Belle. You know, she's very supportive. She seems to be more tuned into what Meta Bell is feeling. She's just like a very supportive parent, and I appreciate that their relationship feels a lot different from the relationship between Meta Bell and a Boila and feels different from Meta Bell's relationship with her sisters. So it just adds to the wide variety of relationship dynamics within the family. All this to say, this movie has such rich relationships between the women in the family, which present these really relatable and meaningful themes and messages that are in the movie, like knowing your value and your worth and loving yourself and not comparing yourself to others. It's things like, you know, the pressure that we put on ourselves and that we put on others, and how that affects individuals, how it affects families. Um, a lesson in not to make assumptions about people and their lives and what they're feeling and what they're going through, which is something that like Mirabel does to begin with, especially with Isabella, but then she's like, oh my gosh, I made assumptions and I shouldn't have done that. Um, it's a lesson in the negative consequences of repressing your feelings and your pain. It's uh, you know. Again, it explores intergenerational trauma and how that affects a family, but it's also about like family joy and community working together and helping each other out and everyone having a valuable part in a community, whether or not you have a special magical gift. And all these themes are at the core of this movie and it's just beautiful and it makes me cry so so much. The last thing I had about the sisters and I, Jessica, you may have pointed this out in a video on trying to I've taken in so much incanto content at this point, so I hope I correct. Is um just a small detail that I honestly didn't even register for me the first time I watched it, But I was like, oh, yeah, the fact that um Isabel is celebrated in her community as the most beautiful of them all, whatever, the fairest of them all vibe and has the darkest skin tone of the three sisters in animation company that has been so notorious for racism and colorism. Definitely Like, I didn't realize that at first, but I was like, oh, that is actually a really impactful thing. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think I brought that up, but I'll take credit for it. Sure, yeah, but what idea? But what I do. What I do say is how she's clearly shown with indigenous features, and there is like no Latin American indigenous like good indigenous representation, like going back to in particular Disney, like there's no real good Latin American representation in media but also in politics and all of that. So so many people. That's why it like it really did touch a lot of people to see someone like they that looks like me, you know, that looks like my aunt, you know, my family, women in my family who live in Ecuador, Like that's you know that that that person looks like me and she's beautiful and and yeah, I wonder, Jamie, if you're referring to a quote and a piece I found by Vanessa Hiron in Refinery twenty nine, I definitely degree that. So it could be critics in TikTok Love and Conto, but as a Latin X woman, it means a lot more quote from this piece. A lot of praise for Incanto has centered on its diversity within the family, with a female dominated character lineup, Felix and his children being Afro Latin X and Isabella being the perfect beautiful young woman while not reflecting whitewashed standards of beauty unquote. And and that's the case even within Latin American media, Like you don't see a lot of indigenous characters in Latin American produce media unless they're like the boat of the joke. Well, and I think it's I just like took me back to time as a flat circle. But Disney had a huge and rightfully so call out in one for failing to represent after Latino people in When in the Heights came out, and that was obviously a project that like Limanuell Miranda, was very close to. I sort of forgot that those projects came out so close together, and I at the time, Limnuel Miranda released a statement um the notes ap apology, which did seem sincere but like notes ap apology after the movie was completed and released, But that is not an issue that Encanto has, So I just thought it was I don't know, I mean, it could be for and who knows how many Disney related production related reasons that that that these two movies. Um, one movie has the issue, one does not have the issue. But it did sort of make me appreciate even more how Afro Latino people are just a part of this world, like no questions asked, because as you can see from a movie that came out like two months before that is still not a given in UM in big budget movies, right, totally. The last thing I wanted to discuss is the magical gifts because it felt to me as though for the women, especially, some of their gifts felt kind of like stereotypically feminine or felt like they kind of leaned into some prescribed gender roles for women in a way that it didn't feel quite so gendered for the male characters. For example, Isabella creating flowers. Flowers are generally associated with femininity. Julietta is kind of like the caregiver slash healer, and she heals people with cooking and food, another kind of prescribed gender role for women to cook and feed her family. Uh. Peppa, I would say, like doesn't control the weather. It's more that like she has emotions and then the weather around her is affected her emotion. Yeah, responsor emotions UM in a way that kind of felt like women are so emotional and like the weathers having a storm because of it. Uh. The two that didn't felt gendered to me where Dolores, who can hear super well, and then Luisa was kind of the only female characters gift that felt more masculine because her gift is to be very physically strong, or like what we're conditioned to think should be a masculine gift. Exactly right, I see what you're saying, and I feel like that is such a across the board, like guys always get the fun powers, you know, like it's always right, the shape shifting and getting to talk to the animals and getting to see the future. Yes, all felt like so those are all those are like the three male powers, and all of those feel just gender neutral to me. So it makes me wonder why the like women's powers couldn't also feel more gender neutral. But there also might be like a cultural context that informs those powers that I'm not fully understanding, but just kind of on the surface surface pressure, it felt to me like some of those powers felt a bit gendered and a bit kind of like stereotypically feminine but curious about other people. And again, like to be clear, I'm not saying that feminine things are bad or that you know, masculine or gender neutral things are good. It's just more that, like, you know, why do people have to be put in a box? But also it felt like there was enough departure with Louise, I don't know, like, yeah, curious about other people's thoughts. Yeah, I can see that with La with her thing being beauty and flowers, and certainly, you know, creating life in nature, that's more of a feminine uh feel to it. But um, I don't yet. Certainly Luisa getting strength, that's definitely not something that we see typically for a feminine character. And even foresight, I feel like I feel like foresight, like seeing into the future, might be gender neutral, because you know, I agree, you know, when I think psychics, I think women sometimes. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, like they into the whole like intuition sort of thing. Yeah, or like you know, the witches looking into the cauldron and seeing something. Yeah. I was thinking of X Men because a lot of the X Men powers are also powers that and conto characters have where where um, oh my gosh, and I'm gonna get the names wrong. Storm controls the weather. She's a female character. But then you have oh my gosh, what's the Blue Lady. I'm so I'm embarrassing myself right now, but she's the shape shifter, Miss Rebecca. Roma's name mose Mystique is that right? Yeah, I know that I've ever seen an X Men movie. Wow, I don't know. I didn't interpret that the Men is having traditionally masculine powers. I just thought they were like a little cooler like that that was more of like women were given. I guess I don't know that this and and this didn't like super bother me. I think I feel like again, like isabel is the one character where you're like, Okay, this is a bit much and at first, I mean, I I don't know. I mean, with with Mirabelle's mom, I think that like defaulting to food is a very easy thing to do, but also it's so culturally important. But also it wouldn't have lessened the impact for a man to be, you know, making traditional Colombian food as well. So I could go a lot of ways on that, but I just in general, like man, I like Bruno can see the few like he has the narratively impactful power, like I think that's maybe more aware of, like, Okay, being able to like that is the most powerful power in the movie. And it's I mean, I guess it did ruin his life, So you're milash Fabery. This is also something that I didn't even notice on the first watch, the like, you know, arguably gendered nature of the gifts, the magical powers, but just something that I wanted to bring up. But um, yeah, does anyone else have anything they'd like to talk about? Um? Well, I wouldn't we speaking about characters? UM. I wanted to clarify my Dolores gossip. I feel like if she were a gossip, she would have used what she overheard from um Mariano's house to benefit her true, because she was in love with him the whole time, and she at the end of the film, she says that she knew that Bruno was in the walls the whole time, but she didn't say anything. I could feel like she was protecting him and because it wasn't affecting the house or the powers in a negative way. But as soon as it did, that's when she let that information out. I I'm fully on board with this. I really love Dolores's character. I hope that too. I hope that that Disney plus were is true. Um, but that that does bring up something that we didn't hit on, because I think that this movie, I mean, anytime whatever, another Disney classic is a teenage girl protagonist that we need to have fall in love. And then in the case when you get around to like Frozen era, it's like, oh, they're gonna fall in love, but they're gonna be it's gonna be like self aware and like we're gonna we're gonna maybe comment on it a little too much to the point where maybe it's a little annoying. Um. And then in this movie it's like there's no need for you're about to have a love interest. One doesn't even really get presented because it's like a family story, not that you know whatever. You know, fifteen year old have crushes and all this stuff, but it's just like it would have muddied up the story in an unnecessary way. And I like that you do get like side stories about relationships between characters, where like we were discussing Isabelle was going to be basically married off to a guy she didn't love and then extracted herself from the relationship, and then Dolores like got you know, I don't know. That didn't bug me at all because there was so much too because I mean, we've been talking about this on this show for years, where it's like a relationship being added to a character is mostly frustrating for us when like that's the defining thing of their character. It's but that isn't who Like, like you were just saying, Jessica, there's so much going on with Dolores in the very little time we get with her that I was rooting for her to get the men of her dreams, like because she deserves it. You know, she's she's great, So I did. I liked how relationships were, um and it is all hetero relationships in this movie, but I thought that the way that they were woven in was pretty cool and realistic, and and you see like a lot of different kinds of relationships to like the Pepa and Felix have like a very very sweet relationship that I um in jealous of, and then very bells parents also have like a different kind of sweet relationship. I also just a quick shout out to Wilmar Valderrama, who voices Dad, and he kind of fell off my radar after that seventies show, but then I saw a recent picture of him and I'm like, oh my god, he's the hottest man alive that's neither here nor there. He's He's intensely attractive. I wanted to say, shout out to a protagonist who wears glasses. This should not be noteworthy, but you rarely see main characters, especially women. I mean, it shouldn't be not worthy that like a person who is wearing glasses, because so many people wear glasses but like and have it not be like and they are smart, like just like the laziest and they need to take them off in order to be sexy. But yeah, you just have mere Bell wearing glasses and that's just part of her look. And and on that note, one final shout out to a friend of the cast, Melissa Lozada Oliva, who is Colombian American and is a dead ringer from Verabel to the point where her family got her Bearabell Dolls to piss her off for Christmas because she was so like. Melissa was like, I know I was on someone at Disney's vision board, Like I know I was because it's the side by side went viral. It was the whole thing. Um him, Melissa, Yeah, yes, shut up to Melissa, Um with that. Does the movie in conto pass the Bechdel test? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Between multiple combinations of characters, very frequently throughout the film UM, which brings us to our media metric, the nipple scale, in which we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens and how how well it does through that lens. I'm gonna go four and a half nipples. It's getting a pretty high rating for all it does in terms of responsibly representing Colombian family and community and culture. That you get UM representation of people that you tend not to see on screen, as we've discussed UM, indigenous representation, Afro Latina representation, representation of glasses, character wearing glasses, strong like physically strong women like that is genuinely a huge one. Yeah, different hair textures, different skin tones exactly, so much as far as representation goes, so much, as far as UM female characters and their relationships being thoroughly fleshed out and developed and just like compelling and you know, relatable family dynamics and just so much. I'm only just taking a little bit off for not for the movie itself, but for and even though the two White Guide directors did the research, they made a terrific movie, it still begs the question why weren't Colombian filmmakers the people to make a movie about their own lives and culture. Why did these white guys feel entitled to be the ones to make this movie. UM also shout out to co director shari's Castro Smith, who also a co writer and was brought on later in the process of the film being made as a co director. But um, this is more criticism of the Disney Corporation than the movie itself, because again, the movie is terrific. I love it. Uh, it makes me feel more feelings than I realized I even had. And I'll give it four and a half nipples, one to mut Abell, one to a Boila Alma, one to Luisa went to Isabella, and one half nipple to the Titanic reference I'll meet you there at at four and a half. I agree that in terms of like I'm I think the movie is very well directed, and I am glad that Disney did all their research, which again it's like should be a standard, but it is not, um, which you know, it's kind of only been a thing for them for in the last ten years or so. In any case, this movie is so beautiful and it gives all sorts of representation. And I like, not only in a story sense and in an authentic casting sense and an authentic research sense, but also literally developing technology, more movies like this can more easily exist. I feel like, like that is just so huge and the fact that a you know, company that has the resources to do that actually did it is pretty impressive to me. Um, So I'll I'll go what you said, Caitlin, and I think it is beautiful. Also, like just for me and for you know, a whole generation of kids, this is going to be like a primer on Colombian culture and will be how they understand Colombian culture versus you know, the heaps of kind of disingenuous stuff that we grew up with. So I'm absolutely, very very glad that this movie exists, and I just think it's going to be a new comfort movie for me personally the same. So four and a half nipples. I'm going to give one Tamirabelle, I give one to Luisa, give one to a Boiler, I give one to Dolores, and I'll give my last half to Tia Pepper. No offenses about I just ran out, how about you, Jessica? Um, I'll just you know, I'm biased. I'm giving them five nipples. I just love that film so much. There's just so much in there that, you know, being Colombian of Columbian descent, having you know, spent my summers in Columbia, seeing my family represented in the film, seeing the food that I I could almost smell, you know, the flowers, seeing my cities, different cities um represented in the film. I just I just love it. And again you're right on, Jamie, Like, I have so much appreciation that now that my daughters can say to their friends, oh, my family, you know, my mom's have Colombian and this is what my you know, where she her family comes from. You know that I can show that to them, um, and that they can show that to their friends, which is something that I didn't have. UM. So yeah, they're getting five. If they had more Colombian representation in the forefront, you know when it comes to like directors, writers, music, they would have gotten complete six sets. I mean it's six h nipples, complete three sets of nipples. But but don't get five from me. And I'll split it between Lisa and Abula Alma. And they deserve it. They do, They do and I hope, I hope that now that this I mean, I think Disney has expressed like this is a whole franchise forever because it made us a lot of money and it sold a lot of backpacks. Honestly, like DIF, people like, if you can sell backpacks, your set for life. So I do hope and I'm optimistic that as this franchise continues, and as there's Disney plus shows and sequels or whatever it is, that more Colombian filmmakers will be brought in ahead of the institutional white guys. So we'll see for sure. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us and for having this discussion with us. It's been our absolute I'd call it an encanto, you know. Thank you so much for having me. This was this was great. You don't have to tweet my arm to get me to talk about this film. So I'm happy to be here. Well, come back and bring another movie you love next time. We would love to have you back, definitely. Where can people check out your stuff? Follow you online? Plug away? Okay, so my blog has domesticated me dot com. My YouTube channel is YouTube dot com. Backslash domesticated me and you can find me on Instagram at Jessica why like yellow Floris f l O r ees awesome, amazing, And we'll link you to your in counter videos in the description as well. If you haven't watched them, listeners, y're missing out. Buddy you with that, you gotta watch the videos. Thank you. Thanks. Oh that was good. I was like I lost control of the sentence in the middle. You can follow us buddies on That's what I'm gonna call our listeners from now and hey, buddies, you can follow us I take it back at bactel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can scoot on over to our Patreon a k a. Matreon, where we released two bonus episodes every month on fun little themes that we cook up. Yeah. Plus you get access to the entire back catalog of bonuses, of which there are over one hundred bonus episodes and that is all at patreon dot com. Slash backtel Cast for five dollars a month, and we're getting into horror movie season and we'll be covering some popular horror requests over. Yeah, Trial Malignant, Ever heard of it? I can'tot wait to watch Blignance again. Uh, And you get if you need merch you can go to tea PAP with dot com, slash get backtel cast for all your merchandizing needs. And uh with that, how do we close up? There's so many there's so many possibilities. Well, we did talk about Bruno, but we also talked about Mutabell and we talked about a Boia. We talked about we talked but Luisa and many other characters, and so we we did it. We did it. We talked about everybody. So we can go home. So we can go home now, Okay, bye bye, bye bye