#423 - Josh Jenkins on Writing 'Fancy Like' With Walker Hayes and How Much $$$ It Made + The Nashville Formula For a Hit Song in 90 Minutes + Writing "Buy Dirt" with Jordan Davis and Winning a CMA

00:00:06
Speaker 1: He and part of this wisdom to he stuck with me. He said, we're in the service industry. The place that I'm just fighting to be in and live in and plant myself in is.

00:00:14
Speaker 2: We create music for people. Episode four twenty three of The Bobby Cast with Josh Jenkins. There's a lot to Josh. Let's talk about a couple of number ones. Jordan Davis by Dirt Badger, I'm no one. You can't write that. Also a writer on Walker Hayes. Fancy like yeah, we fancy like the current song he's got on the chart right now? Is Tucson too late? With Jordan Davis, I'm crazing through the desert. They can back and really as a wonderful writer. But I've been a fan of this guy even as an artist. He is the lead singer and writer and you know, just the guy in Green River Ordnance and this is dancing shoes, food on lou Nancy and shoes singing, which is super cool, Like it's weird. I get to be a fan of him in like two different versions. Josh Jenkins a Grammy nominated singer songwriter. He's had ours recorded from Walker Hayes, Jordan Davis Dustin Lynch, Randy Houser, a whole bunch more. He's tall, I don't know, he's super thoughtful, smart, very philosophical, very much. So it's kind. I didn't know that him and one of my friends were as close as they are until after this interview. He brings it up and then I called him and he was I'll let you hear it later, but he was like, that's one of my best friends since like college. And I was like, that's weird. And I said, do you like Green River Ordinance? And he goes, you know, Green River Ordinates. You know, we had a whole thing, you know. But he's from Fort Worth, Texas. He had a family band. As a kid, he started writing songs with his brother, Matt Jenkins, who's a big writer when you know they were younger. So I'm just gonna play this for you. Thought this was great. This is one of those days too, if I'm being honest, where we had a lot going on and we were leaving town for a few days, just backed up one to the next. However, I really enjoyed this and I was able to slow down and just sit with Josh and talk. Where sometimes if I'm just so wired and maybe me and the guests aren't clicking as much, it won't be like that. But this was really good, so hope you guys enjoy it. You can follow Josh at Josh C. Jenkins on Instagram Josh see Jenkins, or go to Josh Jenkins music dot com. And here we go the Bobbycast with Josh Jenkins. Josh, how are you, Budy? Doing good? Doing good? So today you were doing what? Because I was listening, But then I wanted to stop listening because I didn't want you to say it and to get my reaction before I gave it to you for real. So you had all these songs that you wrote that you feel like they're probably good songs, but they weren't cut. Yeah, and so now you're gonna play them. Yeah.

00:02:47
Speaker 1: So the band that I was in grew up in a band called Greenover Ordinance out of Texas.

00:02:52
Speaker 2: I loved Greenover Ordinance.

00:02:54
Speaker 1: Did I have a funny story about you? And that I mean loved, Well, you were kind, you were you were still in Texas. My cousin texted me and she just said, Bobby Bones just played dance and shoes.

00:03:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was a massive fan. Well, that was.

00:03:06
Speaker 1: That was when we left our label, left the label Capitol in New York, and then we went independent and then that song released and people like yourself supported it as an independent band, it changed the game for us. But we hadn't made music in like ten years, and I'm you know, I've been writing all these songs and I was like, I was like, there's no better time. I was just songs that I love that are near and dear to me. I was like, it's time to put some music out. So all the guys are coming in town. Three of us live here, but the other two still live in Texas, So they're all coming in town next week.

00:03:34
Speaker 2: Do you feel like the songs that you're cutting? And allow me just to geek out a little bit because I'm I was a huge fan, still am a huge fan. Didn't know it had been ten years since you guys had had worked on I knew it had been a while, I didn't know ten years. Are these songs that you've written specifically for the group, for you? Are these songs that you've written just generally speaking, And like, dang, that's a good song and I still have it right here.

00:03:55
Speaker 1: I would say eighty percent of them are songs that specifically wrote for the band, and then there's one or two that fits. My biggest kind of objective with the whole thing was like, I don't want this to sound like songs that I wrote for whoever that are now green riverse songs. I was like, so I really we did a reunion show. This is what kicked it up. We did a reunion show in Texas two nights, one in Dallas and one in Fort Worth, kind of not knowing, and both of them sold out and a bunch of people flew in, and I was like, I started getting sentimental about all the time with the band, and so I started thinking about songs that would be personal to us, as you know guys that you know a couple of us are married and have multiple kids and just like that point of life. And so I embarked on trying to write for that. And there's a few songs that I've written written in town that will probably shape up as well, but some of most of it's pretty personal to the band.

00:04:44
Speaker 2: Thinking of well, I guess we used to call them g RRO. That's right, thinking of that, and also thinking of some of the songwriting stuff that you've done where you haven't been the face of it like Fancy, like with Walker. Yep, it's very different, a way different. It's very absolutely, it is very very different. Yeah. And so is that a place that you had to get as a writer when you got to Nashville, where you had to transition from You've been doing all this stuff for Green River, I would just call them g R O. I don't want to be two in the weeds here. But now you're you're in Nashville and you're trying to write songs and people are going to record and are going to be on the charts. It's it seems a bit like it's a different version of what a lot of people do where they come from out of country, and then they're like, I got to figure out to write country where you're going from? I mean you're as country. I mean that's just country as it gets a version of it. And now it's like I'm going to come and write some for lack of a better term, pop country. Yeah, that was that a shift.

00:05:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, a lot of it was my upbringing and or upbringing to music was I was a product of my dad was a traditional country you know, songwriter, and we played opryes in Texas, so I grew up on like Geene Watson, Merle Haggard songs as like a twelve year old, and then I got into like Mashbox twenty and Third Out Blind and all of the more pop rock things. So as a kid, I was kind of consuming all of it. And then as Green Ever came about, it started as a blues rock band that folded into kind of a rootsy country Texas thing like Americana Texas a specific exactly, yeah, and it had a little pop influence and so but stylistically I loved so much music that come into Nashville. It really trained me how to go hey, when you enter the room, like you have like a proverbial palette of colors you can paint with, and like when you enter in with certain artists you get to open up certain parts of your creative thing. Like with Walker, it's like we get to open up all these colors that like otherwise I wouldn't be able to say or use. And so some of my like I used to add our shows with freestyle or whatever like that kind of thing, and so there was elements of that that were like, man, I get to bring that into some of this music that's not greenervert at all, and so it was pretty fun. It was definitely a learned thing. I was like, how do I tap into that part of my brain?

00:06:52
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's muscles that you've used, but not in situations like you'll be using them now, ye, which is super cool to see. And I definitely want to go through your story, but and I rarely just start with the songs, but I do want to do a couple of the songs first, and let's start with Walkers as we brought that up fancy like, which just was I mean, it was humongous. It was a shifter. It shifted, It shifted all of it. It shifted people on TikTok going, oh, I can also be a country artist.

00:07:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:07:19
Speaker 2: It shifted country artists to go I should be on TikTok. It shifted songs getting in commerce, I mean it, which it did a lot. And I when the song was written, it probably wasn't assumed it would do all that because nothing does that. So tell me about that day and who walks in the room when you finished it, where you're like, this is good, but I've written with the walker before. When you finished the Walker. It's definitely a Walker Yep. It's like, well, this is a Walker thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what was that whole the whole day? Was it memorable at all? Yeah?

00:07:52
Speaker 1: It was, And it was memorable in a personal way. It was you know, obviously we were coming back into the rhythm of writing in the room and after Covid and I had known Walker for so long. We were writing back at the shack forever ago, and you know, and so I'd known him forever, and we would write a ton of songs that I love, and I just grew to admire who he was as a person, his story and his craft. And so that day, man, I would be honest, I was a little like coming in a little burned out, and I looked at my calendar. I was like, if it wasn't Walker, I wouldn't be on this day.

00:08:23
Speaker 2: And but I show up.

00:08:24
Speaker 1: I know with Walker we're going to have great conversation and laugh. And I never had met Shane Stevens or Cambo before. And we walked in the room and none of us had the idea or anything. All that we had was we started talking about life and journey and Walker's story with addiction. It was really because I had never met Shane Stevens and we just started. He was sharing his story and so it was just really awesome, you know, hour and a half of like life stuff. And then Walker's like, I want to write some fun and he's like he had just finished country stuff and he's like, my cruise hyped about this country stuff song. Word, let's write something fun that's all with Jake. Yeah, got it, And so he grabs it. He's kind of talking and he's like, and I grab a guitar and I'm kind of jamming, and he starts talking about how people obviously think they're bougie because he's in a band, he's an artist, and he goes the nicest restaurants and he's like, I just loaded the kids in the van and we go to waffle House or Applebee's. And so we literally had no idea. We started jamming and fumbled out fancy like and and then and then Walker and Chewalker fashion spits out the first two lines of the chorus. We're like, oh my gosh, what is this? And then like two hours later we had the song and just laughed and had a lot of fun. But I remember Robert Carlton was like before I went in the room, He's like, we need a Walker radio song, And I was like, what won?

00:09:35
Speaker 2: What is that too?

00:09:37
Speaker 1: I left there going, this is probably the most fun I've ever had in a room. But I don't know if people will play it. You know, you have a perceived idea of what radio would play.

00:09:47
Speaker 2: And that was that.

00:09:47
Speaker 1: I loved it and I thought it was super fun. But like Walker, I go, I don't know where this lives. I just know I love it. And uh, and then it got His team heard it and were hyped on it, and then and then he did the day and it was just like this thing where there was no calculation. The thing I love about the story of Fancy like is there was zero calculation for a TikTok.

00:10:07
Speaker 2: Dance or like we need to get a brand so someone.

00:10:09
Speaker 1: It was literally we had a lot of fun and then it saw the domino of people responding really sent the song to where it went. It was no sort of calculation or like big machine that was like we're going to push this over the mountain.

00:10:24
Speaker 2: We got a huge label. It felt it felt.

00:10:26
Speaker 1: Like from our end that when the TikTok dance happened, and people started grabbing a hold of it that it just started moving in such a way that we just kind of held on for it, and the whole ride was like kind of.

00:10:36
Speaker 2: Surreal because it was zero expectation for what it did. Those days in a writing room when everybody's just kind of talking. Again, you're far more knowledgeable, far more experience than I am, but mostly you sitting there and talk because you don't have really an idea to jump on immediately. It's like, hey, good to see you. And if you meet somebody new, you're like, hey, what's up, we'll talk. But if you got something, yeah, and you got something that you really brought to the room on purpose, you're like, I feel good about this, let's go. Yeah. Some days you just don't, even if it's not a songwriting room, even if it's i' trying to write jokes, I'm like, man, I just burnt out. Was that a bit of what that was? Or did you try some ideas and just didn't hit and then you ended up an hour and a half later going let's do this, Like what did the room start at?

00:11:17
Speaker 1: It was, honestly, there was no sort of Sometimes you walk in a room and you feel the.

00:11:22
Speaker 2: Pressure like what are we going to write today?

00:11:24
Speaker 1: It literally just felt, you know, and kind of like I'm thankful that it did a very peaceful like getting to know so I don't even know how we got into the conversation about Shane and I started talking about his story and where he's been, and then Walker starts chiming in, and it really just felt like we didn't even get around even throwing any idea. Really, it just was literally like to the point that, you know, not to be emo, but like there was moments of like almost tears of like the journey of of Shane's story and then Cambo being from California, and then but Walker really kind of sharing a lot of his story in that way because obviously I've had a lot of ton of conversations with Walker, but not with Shane Stevens, you know, in that dynamic, and so it was really beautiful. Honestly, it was like the honestly I thought I had a moment in the right before we wrote this song, thinking are we going to write a song today? And if we don't, I'm not even mad about it because I'm loving Like it felt like a therapy session in a way, and so that to me felt like it primed the whole room felt like, man, we really got to know each other. And then and then fancy like happened and the rest is crazy.

00:12:30
Speaker 2: This is where you're mature as a human, way more mature than I am. Because I would be in the room and everybody talking, myself included, and I would go, Man, they feel like I'm wasting their time, Like we've talked for forty minutes and I know I don't know these guys. They didn't come to Nashville to have a therapy session. Yeah. I would start to worry about that and be concerned because I wouldn't have the security in myself to just sit back and let it happen. Yeah. But had it not happened, the song probably would have never come out. Yeah. So that being said, are there times that happens but there's no song ever written at all? Yeah? And do you leave going why did I just spend four hours there? Yeah? Because I would.

00:13:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think you you feel anxiety sometimes in a room you're like or you come in with something you know you like and you're itching to get to it. I think the times that I have been like really just relaxed, like let the song come to you, let the field the room. And I do think there's a time when you're like, hey, y'all, we got to write a song, but.

00:13:25
Speaker 2: That five minutes in, Yeah, shut up, write a song.

00:13:28
Speaker 1: But sometimes, and I found this true, is you kind of you know, the best scenario is there is an energy of like getting to know each other or catching up, and then in that you can oh, you said something and that may be a better idea than what you had. It's like sitting in the room with Shane and Josh oh or whoever. Like their ability. I've learned from their ability to banter and to like play off each other and talk. It kind of like loosens any sort of creative anxiety you get in a room you're like, Okay, write a song and it's like dance and you're like, well I don't, and versus hey, like, let's relax and so a lot of that I feel like I'm trying to implement of just getting a lot of reps and doing it going. Man, I feel like I'm personally better when there's a little bit of like a you know, we're like there's a little bit of a relaxing you know, stretching up in there.

00:14:15
Speaker 2: But I do get the thought of, like y'all and there's been I would feel bad. I would feel guilty, yeah, because I would feel like they think I'm wasting their time. Even if they didn't, even if everything about them said they're in the moment having a good time, I would go, they think I'm a loser and I have no idea, and I'm trying to just go yeah, so good for you. That's a compliment, Like you're mature enough to sit in it some days, some days not some days. I'm with you.

00:14:35
Speaker 1: I'm like, we got to write a song because I'm looking at my clock, going, oh, I gotta like, how much time do we have? And then I have to remind myself a song doesn't have to be built in the day, and I gotta go. Our town can be really good about songsong song, But like it's cool even if we get there's a little old school voice that I've heard from mentors of mine being like, hey, dude, we used to break for lunch. We used to be We used to like if you got a good idea in a day, like there's a little bit of a you know, one of my mentors is Alan Shambling.

00:15:00
Speaker 2: He's like, man, if you've got a good idea, you leave that day.

00:15:03
Speaker 1: Hi, You're like yes, So it's like we might look all day for And that voice is one that I try to keep present versus the current state of song song song, because I get you. You're like, we got to be out here by four, and I got this and I got that, and sometimes you just miss the good ones.

00:15:19
Speaker 2: And I think with me, it wouldn't even be about me, it would be about them. I would just be like, they have to have stuff to do, exactly. It's like I feel when I'm talking to anybody. I don't go to a bunch of parties because I'm not that cool. But if I'm in any social setting and I'm talking to somebody, but there's also like forty twenty eight people around and I'm talking to somebody face to face, I'm like, they do not even though we're having a conversation. I'm like, they don't want to talk to me any They definitely want to go somewhere else and talk to somebody else where the conversation is probably a little better, and I would be feeling that yeah, in the room. But you know, some of us are mature like you. Some of us aren't. I'm with you. So that song, it's weird that you don't that TikTok doesn't pay for music. Oh gosh, dude, I wish they did. I asked them.

00:15:53
Speaker 1: I was like, because at one point they were like, look, how many people have reused your song?

00:15:57
Speaker 2: And I was like, do we get paid for that?

00:15:59
Speaker 1: And they're like, in the true music business fashion, yeah, I think somebody worked out a deal somewhere and it was just like the most vague and I was like, oh, cool, cool, that doesn't sound promising.

00:16:09
Speaker 2: And luckily it translates yep. But we had a song, a Christmas song that Eddie and I really called Elf on the Shelf, and it was all Christmas. It was just getting spread and played like crazy and I was like, oh, I can't wait to see the chick. Oh I have a TikTok doesn't pay anything. Yeah. Yeah. That sucked. Yeah, And we didn't even nobody even carried outside of TikTok, so we made like literally nothing. That song blew up so much it really couldn't be denied in that I don't deal with music as far as country music on the radio. I don't pick songs or anything, but I remember a lot of the executives going, do we play this? But it was just such a jack hammer that if you didn't play it, you were going to be a loser. It wasn't even they wanted to run to play it. Ye, yeah, because it was so not what people were used to. So it wasn't people racing out to go, let's get fancy like on. It was people hold had as long as they possibly could. It was crazy to see bro id that trickled down and I heard a lot about that. Yeah, I was crazy. It was a weird.

00:17:08
Speaker 1: Mix of emotions because on one hand, you're like, this is so fun. It's such a wild ride, and that would That was my first number one. Not that number ones matter, but it was my first song that was that impactful, and I was like, oh gosh, is country radio gonna play My insecure mind was like, is country really gonna play it? You know, And you get all the you know, you feel like there's probably resistance on it, but at the end of the day, it was it was you know, it was wild to see it.

00:17:33
Speaker 2: It was total resistance, but it still broke through. Yeah, even with it may be the most resisted song I've ever seen. Yeah, at the same time, it was also a number one song and a pop culture moment, you know, because I would be flipping through satellite radio and be on the pop station and I would hear it, Yeah, that's big. That doesn't happen very often. No, and I'm assuming that song you did pretty well even with twenty five percent split. It was great.

00:17:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have four kids, four kids now. Actually I remember a moment where it was. It was it was on the commercial and it was during fall college football, and I kept getting text from my buddies being like, if I hear your song one more time the Applebe's commercial, And I was like, buddy, just know this. Every time you hear it that I'm buying diapers from my kids.

00:18:13
Speaker 2: So every time it gets used anywhere, are you making money?

00:18:16
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I think television, television, and yeah, TV and stuff is great like that that makes that's actually gets to us and then obviously radio. But outside of that, TikTok, nothing, nothing, But you know, you realize at that point this song would have not been what. I don't believe without the TikTok completely. It doesn't happen.

00:18:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely I agree, and also getting lucky with the algorithm. I've seen some things that are awesome not catch, yep, and I've seen some things that are like why catch and be massive? You caught and it was great yep. We rode the way. It was the rare both of them hit. The product was amazing and the algorithm hit and people kept spreading it and it worked. It's it's just such a lightning and a bottle type thing. And to catch lining in a you gotta have lightning. That's it. And he had lightning.

00:19:02
Speaker 1: We didn't know we had. We knew he liked it, we knew he loved it. But that's the beauty of this business is you don't you go. I've surrendered a little bit of the ideas like is this a hit or not a hit? I just go, Man, do I love it. At the end of the day, people will decide. But I think we all left going we love this song. Whatever it is, I don't know. And it was just a cool kind of coming back point to go and as creators we just had to love it and then send it out in the world. And then sometimes you just sometimes it goes and sometimes you get the rocket ship hang tight.

00:19:29
Speaker 3: The Bobby Cast will be right back. Wow, and we're back on the Bobby Cast.

00:19:43
Speaker 2: What was it growing up like for you? What was the town that you grew up in.

00:19:47
Speaker 1: We grew up in a town thirty minutes west of Fort Worth called Aledo, Texas. They hold this the amount of state championships in Texas, so it's like Friday night lights five. I was not good at sports at all. Football, football school, football town. Yeah, And my bro and I grew up playing music with my mom and dad. We were in a family band and we would travel around Texas and play these little opryes Hole in the Wall, Cleeburn, Wileye, Weatherford, Grapevine, anywhere that would have a little house band and they would play predominantly.

00:20:13
Speaker 2: Old country music. And that's what you guys did. That's what we did.

00:20:16
Speaker 1: And the crowd was predominantly forty plus an age, and we grew up singing George Jones and Geene Watson and Meryl Haggard songs and Tracy Byrd and all the early country and we were just that was our school into music. That was what only music I thought existed, really, and then grew up and then my brother was like I want to go to Nashville and be an artist. And then I joined Green River as a fifteen year old and was like, I don't want to be a country artist.

00:20:40
Speaker 2: And I don't want to, you know, I went.

00:20:42
Speaker 1: So it was like it became we each kind of went our own separate ways, but mom and dad were supportive. And then I joined the band and we were playing in high school slinging CDs and and then and went to college for a year, and then a manager that was our manager for a long time, and me, Paul Steele, was like, hey, out of school after a year, and let's we're going to buy a van and trailer. We're going to tour independently for two years, playing every place we can. We're going to hustle and try to get a record deal. So we made zero dollars for the longest time, just like I think I was making a thousand dollars a month, enough to pay rent and get some food. And then we were traveling in the van and doing the thing. And then we got a hold of Capital Records out of New York and sign a deal.

00:21:22
Speaker 2: So that was my Green River journey. So you're in college for you to where'd you go to school TCC baby, and so man, I would say it was fortunate your parents were musicians, but I don't think you would have been in the place anyway without your parents being yeah, musicians and music lovers. So what was their story? What did they want to do when they were seventeen eighteen years old?

00:21:42
Speaker 1: My mom she worked at the courthouse in Fort Worth as like a twenty year old, and she worked there her whole life and she left to go work at a at a law firm. That came back, but that was her story. She worked bottom up and then straight from just like interning to then working with a judge. Did she want to be an artist? She never, she just my dad was the creator. I remember as a kid, my dad would get a yellow legal pad and he would be writing hooks out. And my dad, at that point in time, was working full time, created as a graphic design company, was not able to go do music because of us. But he loved music so much and songs. He said, if you're going to play music, write your own songs, and so we would do the family band thing. But he also is like he would always just write hooks out and he would I remember sheets and sheets of hooks that he would write and he would be like, that was his passion, and so that kind of spilled over onto my brother and I. He would send us into separate rooms and say, write a song. Is like eleven year olds each you go into the room and write a song and bring it back.

00:22:41
Speaker 2: We'll play it.

00:22:42
Speaker 1: And so they loved music. I think my mom loved music, but because of my dad's passion, she just was like, hey, he taught her how to sing harmony. And then we're off in the races as a family band.

00:22:53
Speaker 2: And that was older than you write. Two years. Yeah, two years. It's kind of a long time when you're brother. It's not once you get older. But what did he was he like a big older brother to you? Did it feel or did you guys feel like buddies? We felt I mean he felt like a big older brother.

00:23:07
Speaker 1: I mean he's the more like dominant alpha and I'm probably more like reserved, emotional quiet one. And so you know, we never wrote together ever until probably the last six or so years. We never, at no point our childhood, wrote a song together. I think we stylistically just were a part of maybe our egos were like you know, the brotherly thing, the brotherly competition. So I was doing the band thing. He never wrote on any of that, and then he was doing his artist thing, which then it turned into a writing thing. And so it wasn't until honestly, right around the time we met Jordan that we started writing together, which is crazy.

00:23:41
Speaker 2: That's pretty wild that you grew up in the same house with the same parents. Yeah, doing the same music. Yeah. Yeah, you don't hop in and go, let's creatively do something together.

00:23:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird looking back now because we're so close in that regard.

00:23:54
Speaker 2: Did you avoid it then or was it he doesn't like, because I'm sure you didn't go we're never going to write together, yeah, Or did just not come up. I don't know.

00:24:02
Speaker 1: Maybe there was just like some brotherly Stylistically we kind of were different, but I think maybe there was some brotherly like competition, like healthy competition.

00:24:10
Speaker 2: Did you look up to him.

00:24:11
Speaker 1: I've always looked up to him, Yeah, you know, especially you know he came to town and was doing the artist thing and I was doing the label thing out in New York, grinding, and we shared similar struggles in that regard, like he was on Universal South and music never came out and I was on the band, and then we left the label, and so we were always aligned in that regard. Stylistically a little different, but aligned in the journey of music. And so but I always have looked up to him. He is truly my best you know, outside of my wife. He's my best butt in town. And so it's been really sweet.

00:24:42
Speaker 2: But your mom and dad creative, they're singing, they're playing music, but they're also they have stable jobs. Yeah, so you don't anymore. I know, because when you said you were in the family band, and I knew that by reading about you, I was like, well, then his parents were like, run be free because we were no they had real jobs, they had to pay a mortgage. Yeah, so what do they say when you're like, I'm checking out of here, you're in college, I'm going so they say, go ahead, but then come back if it's not working.

00:25:09
Speaker 1: That's pretty much all of the parents in the band and my parents were like, hey, you're young, you have time to go do this. If this doesn't work out, you can always come back. But even you know, throughout the years of the band that were like, you know, being in a band is incredibly hard because of the economics of splitting it five ways, and but we we built a following. But even then, you know, when I met my wife and we're scrapping by and I'm in the band still and we're the shows are great, but you know, you just it's just hard. My parents have always been like, what do you want to do, Like you're a man now, if you want to if you can make that work. But they never at one point were like, you need to get off the road or you need to stop doing this, because they trusted me to make that decision.

00:25:46
Speaker 2: So why'd you move to Nashville.

00:25:49
Speaker 1: I was traveling with the guys and we were doing that and I kept coming to town and being around my bros. Crew and seeing this kind of creative engine that when I was off the road with Green River, it just I didn't really have that. And I think at that point in my mind, I started thinking about do I want a tour for the rest of my life or like for the most of my you know, until I can't anymore to make a living. And I was like, I don't think I do. I really felt like I had met my wife Jules, and I'd started thinking about like the next five six years and so moving to Nashville was a way for me to invest in things, being in a community that would provide an opportunity, no promises, but to pursue something that would I could be here and be around my family and so that was start of the start of that thought process for me. So coming to town was a little bit on. My bro was like, you should be here, you would love it, you would do great. And also just going, you know, let's get out of Texas. Let's go to Nashville and see if there's some something for us up there outside of the band.

00:26:47
Speaker 2: So what do you do when you get here, because it's not like there's a big pot of gold waiting for you, like, oh yeah, dud, Josh's coming, here's here's your money. Like what do you do because it doesn't feel like you're coming with the dreams of pursuing full artistry because you gotta get back on the road again. And you know what that's like. That sucks. It's hard, yeah, and it's awesome, but it sucks. Yeah. So you're kind of starting over, starting over.

00:27:07
Speaker 1: I mean, Cobalt was adminting all the band stuff, and so they were plugged in here with writers.

00:27:12
Speaker 2: And it was a good transition because the.

00:27:16
Speaker 1: Band was still going and there was still money, and there's still work to be had and music out and a lot of things we were doing. It was a time where that kind of covered us to get here. I mean, granted, my wife worked at US. She's a math major from A and M. And she worked for a Texas energy company, so she was carrying us because I wasn't making a ton of money. But it was a scenario that the transition to that was like, hey, this is going to be a process. I didn't expect my mind, I'm going to go to Nashville and like how they hit tomorrow And she deserves an award for how patient. And she's been along the journey for a long time. You know, we've been here for twelve years. So I came in and I just dove straight into the songwriting thing, and it was it was hard. It was a learning curve for.

00:27:57
Speaker 2: Sure, writing co writes with Randoms. Yes, especially at first. That's that's that's new, right, Yeah, just walking in the room. I never met you, Let's write a song. Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:07
Speaker 1: Because the band, the way I wrote with the band was always much it was like a free open ride when I want to write, and then you come to Nashville and it's very much like show up. You get a do you have an idea, and it really in a tough way you learn the craft right it like it works. You over to go, oh I got to be prepared or oh, I like I got to learn more about how this works. And so it was definitely a learning curve. And I even listened back to the songs I thought were good and they're not. They were like these are these are bad? And I was writing them at the time.

00:28:36
Speaker 2: You do.

00:28:36
Speaker 1: Sometimes you don't see your growth until you listen back and go, goodness gracious, like those were tough. But I had a team around me that was willing to kind of invest, and that really got the ball rolling in that way.

00:28:48
Speaker 2: Did you have super fans that were like, hey, why aren't you putting out music? Yeah, what's up?

00:28:52
Speaker 1: At that point, we were putting out music, and I think the band's profile, like having dance and choosing some songs, it helped me transition into town because people are like, oh, we've heard a green of ordinance, like we'll write with Josh, and so that helped me and we at that time were still putting music out, so it wasn't like we had gone dark yet.

00:29:11
Speaker 2: You mentioned a mentor earlier. Tell me who that was again and how did he end up being your mentor?

00:29:16
Speaker 1: Well, Alan Shanmlin has just been a buddy. I met him through Robin Palmer a long time ago, and my brother and I have just connected with him at different points in our career and I took he took me to coffee forever ago, and you know, he is just he kind of embodies a little bit of what.

00:29:33
Speaker 2: I kind of aspire to be as a creator.

00:29:35
Speaker 1: And he moves at such a beautiful, peaceful, slow pace because his process is so different than the song song, song, song song thing. He's very methodical and just like patients of creating something beautiful. And you know the songs he's written, the House That Built Me and I Can't Make You Love Me and Don't Laugh At Me and his story. You know how those songs came about, and the patients it took to get there trickle down into our process going like you know, we want, we're we're trying to like, Okay, we're just twenty twenty three. There's a different climate of creating music but we can lean back and learn a little bit from that. And so he's just been we you know, he's been a dear friend. We actually were My bro and I were flying out to Colorado to do a private gig and he happened to be on our flight, and so we're like, you know, hugged him and we sat and talked for two hours and he.

00:30:23
Speaker 2: Sit there and he talked about life and the soul of what we do.

00:30:26
Speaker 1: And you know, he said this about music, and I admire it. He said, music is spiritual, like what we do.

00:30:31
Speaker 2: It's not all.

00:30:32
Speaker 1: We live at the crossroads of the art and commerce. And he carries like you can hear it in house that built me Like here. He really tries to get to the soul of in the heart of what needs to be said, and he takes the time to say it. And so he's been a person, not only personally but professionally. I just I always go, man, I just want that to I want to be baptized in that thought a little bit.

00:30:53
Speaker 2: Did you ever write early on when you move to town and you're writing with whomever. For me, it was probably when I first moved here was Miller, because I was just like, I mean, he'd written Jamie Johnson, he had written you know you, and I was just like, this is crazy. And Nelly and I are friends, but I was just like, I can't. I'm actually a little bit intimidated. Yeah, and here I am trying to write comedy music with a guy who's got a ton of success, and I was I don't really know what to do. I was a little bit I felt like over my skis caught up. Yeah, it was all good, But who was that for you? Whenever you moved to town and you're like, I'm writing with I don't know a B or C. Or you got in a room and you didn't know them and all of a sudden, I mean they're throwing one hundred and three miles on our fastballs. Oh.

00:31:32
Speaker 1: There was plenty of those where people are seasoned in and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing and you're insecure and you're going, I don't know what I'm doing.

00:31:39
Speaker 2: I'm not good at this. Can I do this? You know?

00:31:42
Speaker 1: I think coming into town there was just there was just you know, people that had been doing it, you know. And I remember sitting in the room with Josh oh and Josh Osborn and Trevor Rosen, and they were kind of enough. They were fans of the band and they were friends of my bros. And we wrote and I was just like trying to keep up, and I was like it was they were so good and so like on the track that I just was like, I got a long way to go. I got some learning to do. And so, you know, battling through insecurity and self doubt and all the things to stick with it and see that slow progression. But those guys and the beauty of this town is everybody, nobody. I really haven't had a write where somebody made me feel bad about myself, which I'm thankful for because I know those exist. But so everybody was always supportive. But I always felt like, man, I got a waste. I got some work to do.

00:32:27
Speaker 2: You know who is super cool? Can't mention those two dudes already or three? You can't mention any of those Shane, Josh, And you can't mention maybe else you say a minute ago, any name you've mentioned. You can't mention who is super cool? Maybe became friends with them, Maybe he just loved being being around them. I'll vamp while you do that for me, it was Jim Bievers and at this point Jim and I have written thirty comedy songs together, right, and I was just like, this dude's funny. He's also written red solo cup. He's also written Tim McGraw, but he's like hello, and I was like, I gotta be this guy's friends. And then we started playing with them. We're friends more than anything professional now, like who was super cool? The writing room made a friendship with who?

00:33:10
Speaker 1: Hmm, goodness gracious. There's so many of them. I'm trying to think like a really good one.

00:33:21
Speaker 2: Early on, there was.

00:33:24
Speaker 1: A girl named Robin Lerner who wrote She's my kind of Reign, and she was yeah, and she was masterful at like melody in this element of like commercial and poetic in this thing, and so early on, like being in a room with her and watching her kind of craft was I remember that was that was impactful on me because I was like, oh my gosh, like I'd never seen that was one of my most impactful early rights. That was just she was kind and she was gracious. And from then obviously there's people that you meet I think you know people before, but like the lorries of the World and the Allen of the World.

00:34:00
Speaker 2: And the.

00:34:02
Speaker 1: Obviously I can say Shane because I'm part of the Shame Company. But I think those kind of people what they did for me is they never had an ego in the room and I think that's unique to me. Just you kind of go and go and this person's gonna be like they have the right to be whatever, and I go, oh, Like there's a graciousness to those guys like Shane. The way he creates is so gracious and collaborative and building up of you know, your your co writers that I was. That has floored me to be in the room with people like that that were like, oh, dang, you deserve you could be whatever, but you're not.

00:34:36
Speaker 2: That's funny that you mentioned that because I had done a couple of things with Walker and he is a confidence giver mm hm, because I know what I A'm good at and walk and be like that's it, yeah, come on, yeah, WHOA And I'm like maybe I am. And I knew I wasn't, but I was like, maybe I am. Okay, like that you're you're right. There was a real confidence even that Walker would give me that I would be like, make me better honestly because heart rate we go down a little bit so you could actually breathe, so you could actually whatever perform means right create. But there is it's a superpower. Yes, some people have. It is to instill confidence and folks actually let them be a better yea performer. Ye.

00:35:19
Speaker 1: It brings out the best in everybody. And I think there's a I've learned that from them, and I try to carry that. I go like, man, if you leave the room and if someone feels small because you've been in the room with them, I'm like, this is not this is we haven't met our purpose here. Like being with those guys and they build you up and they give you confidence. You don't see yourself like that's it. You know, when shame looks like that's it.

00:35:41
Speaker 2: Go with that. You're like, you go, oh, maybe maybe I kind of know what I'm doing. You know I belong, Maybe I belong. That fails back to me exactly, and so I really appreciate that.

00:35:51
Speaker 1: Even to this day. Man, I go, there is a real thing. Because we're all in secure creators. It's like, dude, we doubt ourselves and so to have people in the room that are speaking that life.

00:36:00
Speaker 2: I think it unlocks like the songs, because.

00:36:03
Speaker 1: I think if you're like insecure and you're only thinking about yourself, you're probably not going to be creative as creative as you could be otherwise.

00:36:09
Speaker 2: So it's like shoot freeers. That's right, you know, Tyer, You get where you're gonna shoot and lock up, you get the yips. Oh yeah, golf kinda dang, live the yips. My whole life is the yips.

00:36:20
Speaker 4: The Bobby Cast will be right back. This is the Bobby Cast.

00:36:33
Speaker 2: The most excited I've ever been an Awards show is when by Dirt won ever And I've been to a bunch and been part of a bunch, but I mean, you and your brother wrote that with Jordan his brother, and obviously Jordan and I were very close, and I was just like, come on, come on. I couldn't believe it, but not in the way of like I couldn't believe it because it shouldn't happen. I couldn't believe it because it just felt like something that I wanted and something that was that good. Surely it's not gonna win. What did you think about going into that when that song was was up for the CMA.

00:37:08
Speaker 1: I think you just try to protect yourself a little bit, going, man, getting the nomination is winning, which I believed to a degree, right, I was like, you try to pad your expectation, but you just you kind of go in a little even you go in going, am I really here? Is this really happened? The whole process you know, of that song, how it was born, and the guys and the relational equity, and then going to the all of the stuff and then the awards, it just felt like we've already won, like not in this since we've won the award, but I go this is this to go here with my bro, like the journey of this my wife and our journey in Jacob and Jordan, And so I think I was a little bit just patting my.

00:37:46
Speaker 2: Expectation, being like we already won. Man, we're good. You know, we tell these others told each other that.

00:37:52
Speaker 1: My bro and I were like, we already went, we're here, this is the win and we just had NSAI Awards and we're like, man, and so you know, I think you're trying to protect yourself, but yeah, when when it happened, you're just like I just remember being like, oh my gosh, like what is this even I don't even.

00:38:05
Speaker 2: Know what I'm feeling. What were you listening for, bah or Joh? I think the the ba from from from Reva Yeah bye by Oh my god, that would have been crazy. It was, dude.

00:38:18
Speaker 1: It was like you're sitting there and you're like, oh God, stand up. You're like, you know, you can't prepare for moments where you're you're like you have that out of body experience where you're like you're you're trying to soak it in.

00:38:28
Speaker 2: But it's such a big thing that it all felt.

00:38:31
Speaker 1: And obviously we saw you back there and it was just like we still were like, oh my gosh, it's great.

00:38:35
Speaker 2: I rushed back there. I was I was with my wife sitting and as soon as I went, I was like, I gotta go. Yeah, and I was God, I was so happy for you guys. That was the coolest moment. Well, man, I we appreciate your love on it.

00:38:46
Speaker 1: Man. It was if we felt it and it was special for us in so many ways, and even outside of being a hit or song of the year whatever, it's like, words are great. It was like the soul of the song and the journey it took us on as brothers and friends and husbands and fathers and and people like yourself supporting it.

00:39:01
Speaker 2: Were like was the sweet spot. Sometimes people say stuff like you know, brothers in love and I don't believe them. I believe it with you. For some reason, I feel like that like you're I feel like you're like very grounded and respectful of why you're hearing, what you feel you're supposed to do and how you're supposed to do it, Like you're like country Buddha sitting next to you.

00:39:23
Speaker 1: Is what it feels like, Bro, I'm I'm trying, man. I think as a dad, and the journey of this thing I've thought a lot about. I've had a lot of internal you know, the thing is successful. The thing success will do to you is it will reveal a little of your motive. And I've had to recorrect and not that we have bad motives, but it taught me a lot to go okay at this point in my career. Actually, Ben and I had this conversation about your buddy of ours. He and part of this wisdom to me stuck with me. He said, we're in the service.

00:39:53
Speaker 2: Industry, which Ben Rector, Oh okay, got it, and it blew my mind to go.

00:39:58
Speaker 1: Okay, So much of our world, if we're not careful, can be about I want to have a hit, I want to be successful, I want to get a plaque. I want to and then it becomes egocentric, and the Alan Shamlin voice that comes into my head or the Shane voice or whoever, is like, hey, that is not bad. The place that I'm just fighting to be in and live in and plant myself in is we create music for people. And when I'm in that posture, going hey, man, what song would be, whether it's fun or lighthearted, it's a service injury of me in a benevolence, going like I want to give a song to the world that helps people or like makes them laugh or whatever. But when I assume that posture and I redirect, like I don't like awards, I don't like lights, like I don't like giving. I don't like because to me, it tangles up my ego and makes it just it distracts me, And so I think from those things. I felt a little bit of like having to pull away from that. As sweet as awards are, I was like, man, what I enjoy way more? And you know, I remember sitting in a room with Mark D. Sanders, and he was like, the best, the best it ever gets is the four walls, man inside these four walls.

00:41:09
Speaker 2: And I just had I'm just.

00:41:10
Speaker 1: Recorrecting back to a place of like I gotta do this for the I gotta go to a show and I gotta feel people. And then I got to go back and go, what is a song that they would want to hear? When I'm in that stream, it's like so fun. But when I think about, Josh, you need another hit, you got a deal coming up?

00:41:24
Speaker 2: What about?

00:41:25
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do your fancy? Like, I just want to shrivel up in the corner and be like, I don't know, I'm not that good. I'm I'm better at if you and I you're talking about your life and you're like pour something out and like we'll write that. I'm better at that than going the calculated part of it. So to answer to come back to all of that, it's.

00:41:41
Speaker 2: A country Buddha. Like You've been called that never, but I will I will take that. You's word of the badge, dude, I will create a tech a literal badge country Buddha, Country Buddha. Has there ever been a song called pour Something Out, but it feels like you're it's the double meaning, right, you guys are great at it. Pour something out and it's pour something out. It's like well lick, except it's not. It's it's opening up. Yeah, Hey, we'll treat for me to you. We should write it. You don't want me writing now? You don't want me writing? Hey?

00:42:12
Speaker 3: You no, no, Hey, Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor.

00:42:25
Speaker 4: Welcome back to the Bobby cast by Dirt.

00:42:29
Speaker 2: Wasn't supposed to be a duo. What do you call it? Collaboration? They only sing to each other. But you know, when you guys write that song, was it a Jordan song when you finished? Or did you guys all write and go, let's just write the best song and we'll see what happens.

00:42:44
Speaker 1: I think we were where we were, you know, And truly to your point when you say people love each other. I love those boys man, obviously, my bros, my best I love him deeply, the dearest friend that I could ever have, you know. And but meeting Jacob and Jordan, and Jacob was still doing his artist thing. Jordan like, wasn't even when we were writing with Jacob. We hadn't even met Jordan, and then Jordan comes in and start doing his artist thing and just developing.

00:43:08
Speaker 2: So there was so much.

00:43:09
Speaker 1: There was a culmination of relationship that led to that moment we were outside of town. I remember the morning we were sitting outside with the coffee talking about fathers and husbands and some of our shortcomings and and that song. If we would have written that song in a national writing room, it not would have been what it would have not been what it was. It was in a way, it felt preserved for a moment that we were vulnerable about life. And then we were start talking about our grandpas and that song happened, and immediately it felt like a Jordan song.

00:43:37
Speaker 2: To me.

00:43:38
Speaker 1: It felt like, hey, this is personal to us all. But like I said earlier, like I don't think any of us were, like we knew we loved it. But that's I was doing the demo later, going like all I know is when I listen, I feel my hair on my arm stand up, and I go, that is the indicator to me that we now have to surrender it to the world.

00:43:55
Speaker 2: But I can't.

00:43:56
Speaker 1: I know that we've done our part because I believe in what we're saying, and so it always felt like a Jordan song to me. You know, at that point in his career, it was a different flavor for him from coming off some of the other stuff. So it was it was like almost broadening what he does a little bit. What was You're right it Okay, it's Jordan's gonna cut it. Then it's Jordan's cutting it.

00:44:18
Speaker 2: But Luke's what was that? How did that go? Kind of walk me through that. Yeah, we had written, it had been cut, and anybody cut it before Jordan. No, we didn't even pitch it. Really.

00:44:26
Speaker 1: Jordan's like, I'm cutting this and then you know, I had done the demo. I was like, it needs I need to make it sound like a single. So I like done it up and it you know, it does all the try to add energy to it. And then Paul di Giovanni, his producer, in a masterful way, was like not stripping it all back and he kept it small. And I remember Jordan playing us the version and being like, Okay, it sounds like we're laid back, and Paul's like, trust me, I think this will serve the song best.

00:44:51
Speaker 2: And at that point Jordan's like, I think I'm gonna send it to Luke.

00:44:54
Speaker 1: I think we may like And then he had sent it, and then he kind of communicated a little bit of the response, and I think at that point, you know, you go, Luke Bryan, You're like, oh my gosh, like this is all of us were like, holy smokes, this is crazy. And it was really cool to hear his voice on it because it felt like something, you know, it felt true to who he is. It wasn't like he was trying to be anything other than he was, so it was beautiful and honestly, at that point Jordan and Luke kind of formed a friendship that was cool to see.

00:45:20
Speaker 2: As well. Give me the formula which doesn't exist, but it does, of writing a hit song. I mean my formula, the Nashville formula to write a hit song. What's the Nashville formula?

00:45:33
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, A memorable melody, I think a hook that is clever. Sometimes, well, it depends you can go the heart route. You need to find a song that is so such a freight train of emotion that is crafted in such a way that you can't that you feel lost in it. You forget you're listening to the house that built me those kind of songs, or.

00:45:56
Speaker 2: What do you have ninety minutes? You only have ninety minutes to write a hit song? What's that formula? Find a catchy hook? Whistles and claps.

00:46:03
Speaker 1: I'm going whistles and claps. I'm going, I'm going somebody give me a vulnerable title. If we don't have it, we're going whistles and claps. I'm gonna see if we can't find something, I call it fabric.

00:46:11
Speaker 2: I go, what you know?

00:46:13
Speaker 1: Music comes in and out. And there's an old obviously uh author that said this. You know you want you want something to have enough thing on it that you says it just slightly like you haven't heard it. Because we're so used, especially now, so much content. What's gonna hit you in a way? We go, Oh, I'm gonna listen to that.

00:46:29
Speaker 2: Is it a voice? Is it a production? Is it a progression? Is it a melody? Is it a hook? So I would go, what are where is our secret sauce? It's like, okay, that's our secret sauce.

00:46:38
Speaker 1: Let's whistles and claps and and then we'll find a way to get to that to where you hear it and you go, that's the fabric on that's gonna grab you a little bit, because that, to me, what we want when people hear a song is them to go, I want to hear it again, And so like, what kind of fabric are we putting in it to grab a hole of you. It's like if it goes down so smooth, you don't remember anything about it, then, So I would say ninety minutes. So I would do a quick survey of what heart songs we have and if they're if you said it, I have heart like a truck, I'm going we're writing that song.

00:47:06
Speaker 2: I know how to do that.

00:47:07
Speaker 1: Probably wouldn't have written it as good as they did, but I will try. But I know that, like you can weave in a little bit of the heart with what Nashville does, which is the metaphor, which is beautiful song length.

00:47:18
Speaker 2: It's a bit of an issue now they just edit them down. And again I'm not directly involved what radio or satellite radio does, but I know they like to songs to be shorts. They move on to the next one. You know, when we were younger, you could have a four and a half minute so I know you can't do that anymore. If you're writing the grade and it's long, You're like, well, what are we going to cut out? Like do we need to cut the bridge in half? Do we need? Is that always on your mind? Like how long the song is? Or do you wait till it's over to make that decision?

00:47:47
Speaker 1: I kind of wait and I go to me, it's just like a feeling. I go, Okay, this feels appropriate. If they want a shorten it, they will. You know, we're not going to write a bridge.

00:47:54
Speaker 2: I don't need it.

00:47:55
Speaker 1: But I normally I go, how do we preserve? To me a song with hell? And that sounds so wacky, like a song will tell you. But so a lot of times I go, it feels complete, Like it feels like if we pull that out, that just feels incomplete.

00:48:07
Speaker 2: So like, let's deliver it complete.

00:48:09
Speaker 1: And if they come back and say, hey we need a trim it, granted, if you're making a five minute song, you're going like, hey, i'll make a five minute song. We just got to know that maybe they'll cut it, but maybe it'll be track seventeen whatever you know, you may, but I'd like even the single thing. The more I think about that, I go, I just don't want to miss a song because I'm trying to think about a radio song. I go, I would rather I'd rather have a song that feels like a five minute song that people go have you heard that song on the record, And they'd be like, well, maybe it's not a single.

00:48:36
Speaker 2: Then go like have to cut everything down. I want to do best and worst. The best thing about the music industry now and what's the most difficult, what's the worst thing? Hmm.

00:48:46
Speaker 1: The best thing about the music business now is I think it's fractured in a positive way where the structures of songs finding their way or artists finding their way has fractured in a way where I feel like there's a hour shift. And as a songwriter, what I want to see with my friends that are artists is their ability to get music out and have some level of control of that process. And you're seeing with technology obviously that that is. I've seen people that don't have anything going that are friends that connect and build an audience outside of a label structure. I love labels, but I go, man, it's nice to see that. I get excited about that because as a creator, I go and I can write with you and we can get stuff going and you can connect and build something and it doesn't have to be well I'm going to go I've got to go the traditional route, and then if radio doesn't work.

00:49:34
Speaker 2: We don't have a plan.

00:49:35
Speaker 1: It's like, to me, that is beautiful and also complicated, because without radio, what a songwriters make money on?

00:49:43
Speaker 2: So snowballing off of that.

00:49:45
Speaker 1: It's the most optimistic I have been about seeing songs connect with people and people build fan bases. It's the most confused I've been about how do we as songwriters. We have fifty million streams on a song, but we're not making any money, and I'm seeing careers take off and without a radio and labels are tentative to work singles. You know, I have friends that are like, have songs that have a ton of streams that they don't get a single on. And so as writers are going like, man, I want to show up every day and do this because I love it.

00:50:15
Speaker 2: But how do we do this? You know?

00:50:17
Speaker 1: You know there's some sort of we're edging towards a better solution. So I would say, batter the best and worst. Maybe complicated at the moment.

00:50:27
Speaker 2: Where can the most growth happen? Right now?

00:50:30
Speaker 1: I think the most growth could happen if this is a long shot, but this is speaking as a songwriter. The ecosystem of music needs to I think needs to be recalibrated in a way where songwriters can have some level of benefit from songs not being on radio. And I think it's a it's a weird world when it's like a baseball reference. It's like, man, every time you get up to the plate, you have to at home run. You're like, dude, I don't know if I could do that. I think sometimes the idea that a writer is going to get and it get hits and so everything below that food chain is not sustainable. To me, seems like the whole ecosystem is suffering because of that foundation is not set. So I look at all my friends and I go, man, there's got to be a way to include songwriters. If it's included on the mo be awesome. If some big artist was like, hey, dude, you know what, we're going to cut a deal. We have power with the labels, like we're going to cut a deal and we're going to give a ten percent of the masters split between the writers. Like, to me, it's hard to get that because it's not a norm at the moment, But I go, that would be a game changer, And then the ecosystem all thrives because now you're writing songs, not trying to get a number one, but you're writing songs because you love them, because you and I both know right now a lot of songs that are working don't fit the traditional radio format.

00:51:50
Speaker 2: And I go, man, I want to write.

00:51:52
Speaker 1: I want to go into a room and think about a five minute song and what if it gets fifty million streams but it's never a number one. I'm like, what if we had access to any sort of ownership on a master that the I go, then the ecosystem, and I honestly think the main objective that I see from that is not songwriters making a living. It is songs getting better because writers aren't writing songs trying to make something that fits in this space.

00:52:14
Speaker 2: And I go when that happens, I know a lot of my friends man right, going, well, it's not for radio? What? And I go, but no, what is in you? It's beautiful and fearless and brave.

00:52:25
Speaker 1: I want to hear that song. I like, I don't need to hear your three and a half minute beer song. That's cool, give me your song. It's like the deep cut, Like, that's the one I want, and I go. I think more than ever people have an appetite for it. Writers are scared to go there because they don't think they'll make money, and I go, okay, let's figure that out. So that would be a thing where I go, God, that would and not just as a songwriter. I think the ecosystem then benefits. It would set a precedent.

00:52:52
Speaker 2: If one one and a half major artists yep did it, it would set a precedent. YEP. Now that's a lot of sacrifice from everybody that owns I mean ten percents a lot. But it would absolutely change the game. I've often thought, and again this is just a cock maamy idea. And I'll relate it to like the podcast network that I have, and I've got six seven shows. And if this show, this show does really well, this podcast here does tons and tons of streams, and it makes a really good amount of money. But what happens is I make the money, but there's all We'll just give it a number. Twenty percent of that streams down to the other shows in the network automatically, so everybody who kills it kills it, but we root for everybody because if I kill it, Carolina Hobby makes a little money off of it, Amy makes a little if Amy kills it. I'm so what if you did that sort of system on a we'll call it a project, an EP and LP. So whatever song, let's just call it song number two, Oh blur, my favorite song back in the day. It crushes and gets a billion streams and gets played on the radio, And well, that song there should be like a you say ten percent of the masters, what about ten to fifteen percent of like a profit share type thing for all the music on that project. So the artist is also picking songs that they are passionate about as well as songs that they think will be hits. And it gives people a reason to write wonderful songs and hit songs, because you can't just write all wonderful songs all the time, because you know what, you gotta pay the bills, that's right, and art is only worth anything as far as money goes as people buy it. If not, you're gonna be van go and die and then you're gonna get famous. So I always felt like there was a profit share on a project type. Man, that's a model, not a lot. All it takes is a little All it takes is just a section ten to fifteen percent of the profit that dribbles into everything. But everything else dribbles back up into that too. That way, everybody makes a little something. Man, you can have that too. Amen, pour something out and you can have that model. Country Buddha gonna change change the game.

00:54:54
Speaker 1: I'm just I think I feel optimistic. I think we're in a place where Yeah, me too, I think we're headed towards growth in a lot of ways that I go it's going to be good for not only songwriters, but the whole thing.

00:55:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree content just in general, songs, you don't you don't have to be anything to have a song and build an audience. You don't have to be anything. No, you don't have to be anywhere. It's great to be places, and it helps the times to be places, for sure. It helps to have a label, It helps to get ready to play at times, it helps to get playlisted. But if you're not that for sure doesn't mean you can't do it. You just have to have something that works it and that people that resonates with folks and if you can do that, it's the first time I think in my life i've seen that happen. If you're just good, and you're good consistently, it's it's going to exist. And that excites me. I'm with you, man, Even about content, it excites me because it used to be Well, if you don't have a major radio station or screw that, get you a microphone. It's going to be hard. It would be easier to be put on all these markets. Sure, but get your box record it. And if you're so compelling, sure you're starting from a detriment, but if it's so compelling, you're gonna be in the game. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, I agree.

00:56:04
Speaker 1: And I think even early band days, I god, well we didn't have Instagram until you know, a little later. But I go, all of the tools to get to people, I go. I tell my friends, now I go. You can't be too precious with any sort of technology. You just use it as a way that you get access to people. They may not react, but like you said, the ability to connect is there. You just you gotta be great and you gotta be consistent, like you said.

00:56:26
Speaker 2: And so I'm with you, man. I love that I love that.

00:56:29
Speaker 1: There's it's things can catch fire and go and then and I don't I love labels, but I go, I like that like they have to then go what we didn't think that. I go, that's good for the business. It's good that like sometimes you don't know. Sometimes Joe Smow from wherever that plays on a guitar in his bedroom has more streams than your artist that it's on radio, And I go, that's good for music.

00:56:50
Speaker 2: That's how music should be. It's a little bit of the wild West. I feel enlightened. I'm be honest with you. I feel country unlightened. Dud. I'm gonna carry that with me. He should. I'm gonna carry with me too, out of here. What's the goal? That's a very vague, broad question, purposefully, but what's the goal I'm chasing.

00:57:11
Speaker 1: I'm chasing purpose amidst a business that is built on being commercial and successful on radio. So I'm trying to the goal for me at this point is looking inward and trying to chase the songs that I want to write. And they're not ones that come I know. To get to the songs I want to write takes a unique path because I want to write diddies and uptempo and they don't have to be slow. But this, like I said, mentors I have in the songs I'm trying to get to, I go, I'm gonna have to do a little bit of I can't be chasing success. So that's the next chapter for me, is going, Okay, we've had some we've got the monkey off the back, dig into your soul and dig into tune into the world, and go what needs to be said and how are you going to chase and pursue those ideas? That is your purpose going forward. It's not to go I personally to each his own. My objective is not I want to make a living doing this because I have four kids, But I go, God, it's better when I feel connected to the purpose and not just go like I want to go have a bunch of hits.

00:58:22
Speaker 2: I want to do that.

00:58:24
Speaker 1: I want to have songs that work to make money, to provide for my family and my life. But ultimately, the most satisfying thing is hopefully writing a song that says something and green reve ordinance. That's right, what's up, it's coming. We're gonna We're gonna do a reunion show. Another one in the in the spring, and once again I go, I think there was a period of our career that I was like, we're thinking about you're thinking about what do people want to hear? Versus Hey, this is what I want to say. We created backwards, Well we need to what do people want to hear? Let's create And I think I'm back to a place of going, let's just tell the truth. And so so I'm excited about that as a thirty eight year old going, let's just make some music that feels truthful to us, as thirty eight year olds that have been through marriages falling apart and valleys and mountains, and let's put some stuff in a thing. And just like you have said, let's we have the ability to connect, why wouldn't we do this even if there's a couple of thousand people that it starts a conversation with and you get that email and you've had it with your show and everything that you do. It's like when someone hits you it said, men, thank you for what you do, like you have helped me, or hey man, this song is our daughter's song, or what you said on that joke whatever. It's like those kind of trickle down valuable things on a soul level or go I want to engage in those conversations, and not not in an ego way, but in a way where I go, man, why not?

00:59:44
Speaker 2: I like it? I like I like you, and I'll end with that. It's pretty, it's pretty astute, it's pretty. I like you. I'll take it. Yeah, we have, you know, a lot of mutual friends. Yeah, I've been a big fan of you for a long time, but before I knew you, and I don't feel like I know you know you now, but I we've met, and yeah, we definitely have mutual friends. So I am a big fan. Good luck, man. I know the New Jordan's song too Soon, Too Late is now on the chart, and for your sake, I hope it doesn't become a hit. Well, I hope it's just an art song that people related to. Oh no, you don't want that, I know. Here's the deal we thread about. I said I got to make a living if I was getting equity.

01:00:18
Speaker 1: Shit.

01:00:18
Speaker 2: No, but it's that's the song that I love. And yeah, I'm just kidding you know, I'm messing with you. It's just an easy one, easy, all right, you guys follow we told you at the beginning of this Josh C. Jenkins on Instagram Josh Jenkins music dot com A huge fan. Good luck and I'll see you at the next CMA's or wherever you're getting your awards. Thanks pretty cool, I appreciate it.

01:00:38
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production