The Bagel Boom, featuring Carlos Perez of Boil & Bake

This episode is sponsored by Broaden Taylor, helping more people bake bread, gather around the table, and share something made by hand.
You grew up in a cave in the woods.
I grew up in a cave in the woods.
You went like now.
From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know.
I'm Jessica Battalana, King Arthur's staff editor.
And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.
And today we're talking about bagels.
Oh God.
I've been dreading this episode because I just feel like there's no way we're not gonna get in hot water here.
I don't care.
I'm ready.
I I I feel if there's one thing I feel secure in, it's my opinion's about bagels.
Well, and you know, here's a little twist of the turn, as my 12-year-old likes to say.
Twist of the turn?
I like that.
Because this episode, you're the one with all the big opinions.
Because you said memory serves, you said on video, we could go to the tape, that New York bagels are, I think the word you used was trash.
Yep.
And that that video got around, you know, you you record these things and you think, doesn't matter what I say, no one's gonna see this.
Yeah, yeah.
Turns out when you say New York bagels are trash, people see it.
Wake up and they pay attention.
All of a sudden, people listen to me.
Um I don't, you know, I think what I meant by that statement is that there are a lot of subpar bagels in New York.
And that's probably just because there are a lot of bagels in New York.
I mean, you can get a bagel anywhere.
I mean, there are a lot of subpar bagels everywhere, and New York is no exception.
And I think people think you know, bagels are associated with New York.
Right.
The same way like you go to Paris and you're like, the baguettes.
And then there's like some absolute garbage grocery store baguettes, too.
Like, yeah, you know, right.
Nobody is spared from mediocrity.
Right.
There is no Shangri-La.
It doesn't exist.
Um, but let's I want you just to I want you to unpack the New York Bagels or trash statement just a little bit for our listeners.
Sure.
Um let me just clarify: there are great bagels in New York, and I feel truly blessed.
Yeah, here I am backtracking of a flip-flopper.
Um I I I live across the street from a great bagel shop in New York.
I mean, so there's some great bagels.
Um, but uh I do feel distress over the state of the bagel.
I the bagel has gotten too big.
Yes.
Too big.
Yes.
You know, um, and uh a lot of the character that defines the bagel, which I think we're gonna get into in this episode, has been lost over the years.
That said, there's a huge uh movement in this country of bringing back great bagels.
And uh we talk so often about the evolution of baked goods on this podcast.
I feel like that's really in a lot of ways what our podcast is about, like where where is baking now and where as opposed to where it has been.
Yeah.
And bagels are a great um example of that because they started one place, they went a lot of other places.
I feel like they're coming back, but they're also doing new things that I support as opposed to the new things that I don't support, which are bagels that are about the size of my head.
Yeah, truth.
I mean, and I think we can't we can't get into this episode without acknowledging, at least, like that there is some, I guess we'll say, regional friction around the conversation around bagels.
Like it is one of those foods where people think like you can only have a true X if it's from X.
Exactly.
And I don't I mean, we're gonna talk more about that in this episode, but I think like there is a lot of debate about our New York bagel bagels better than bagels in Los Angeles, our New York bagels better than bagels in Montreal.
You know, there is like people have their allegiance, shall we say.
Yeah.
Um and i i there are some baked goods, not all of them.
Like I think about like I don't know, I think about our cheesecake episodes, say.
And it's not like people are like the only true, well, I don't know, maybe they are, are they?
New York stocks.
Is New York just thinks it's the center of the universe, is what it comes to.
A little bit, yeah.
But it's true.
I mean, and I think that is what I was responding to.
It's people have this idea that, you know, if you're in New York, that the bagels there should be great.
And it's just it's just not true.
I mean, you have to go to a good bagel place anyway, and not just any bagel in New York.
Uh, Montreal definitely has a great, you know, style of bagel.
Yeah.
And you mentioned LA, which is a real newcomer in the bagel space, really.
And, you know, when the headlines came out a couple years ago that the best New York bagels are not in New York, they're in LA.
You know, I was like, that's clickbait.
I'm not doing that.
I don't believe that.
Yeah.
But uh I don't know.
I today, I I I I I've been convinced.
I think I think there's some I think there's some really exciting stuff happening in California and in the South and in the Midwest.
I mean, everywhere in this country, there is a lot of exciting bagel innovation happening.
Yeah, and it's not like you need, you know, there's always the like, you need New York water to make New York pizza.
You need, you know, and I like, you know, I don't buy it.
Like I think it's you can be a regional loyalist all you want, but I don't think it's true that you can only get a good bagel in New York.
Sorry.
Yeah.
I'm just gonna say it.
Um, but I will say how many minutes now have we spent slamming New York bagels?
But New York is the home of bagels in America.
Yes, absolutely.
Bagels originated in Eastern Europe, uh, and like so many other baked goods, like pizza and so many, some of the so much of the stuff we talked about cheesecake about uh it was uh immigration that brought it to the States.
And Polish bakers in particular brought the bagel to New York City uh in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
And uh it was a thriving industry.
I mean, the Lowery Side was full of bagels and beales, which were two separate things, notably.
Yes.
And there was unions, right?
These bakers were part of a union, which is pretty incredible.
Right.
Uh because there were so many shops.
I mean, there were so many bagels, 70 shops in the Lowery side alone.
Wow, that's crazy.
You know, a very big area.
Then there were unions um and there were rules about how bagels could be produced.
You know, um hand-rolled, you know, hand-shaped, boiled, baked in wood-fired ovens, often on uh bagel boards, yeah.
Uh planks of wood that uh you could use to flip the bagels over.
And some of them, and a lot of bagels are made that way today.
And they were not rainbow bagels at the time.
You know, fun fact, they were.
Yeah.
And they were the original bagels are rainbow bagel, yeah.
Just so we it finally came out.
Strawberry, blueberry.
I mean, and the process that you're describing is still really again, like automated, like we were talking about in our donut episode.
Like, you know, it not all steps of the process are now done by hand, but the steps are still more or less the same.
Like you make the dough, you shape the dough, you boil them, you bake them.
Like that is codified bagel process.
There are nuances in there, we're gonna talk about that, but that's basically, you know, the way that it goes.
And I would argue also that I think there are more bagels being hand rolled and hand shaped today than donuts being hand-shaped.
Of course, I'm talking about smaller bagel shops.
You know, I mean, you know, the Lender's bagels or whatever, you know, I'm sure those are machines.
I'm so glad you brought up Lender's bagels, actually, because the Lender bagel, I didn't have, I mean, I'm always talking about things that I did not have until like later in life because I grew up in a place.
Like it's sort of you grew up in like in a cave in the woods.
I grew up in a cave in the woods.
And you were like now.
Yeah.
I don't know if anyone's gonna remember that reference, but I do.
Jody Foster, if you want to be a guest on the podcast, we'd love to have you.
Um but we're the only two people who remember you're moving now.
I um I didn't have a bagel.
I mean, bagels were not a thing.
Like there was like the first bagel chain in Vermont, I remember, was a Brueger's bagels that opened near Burlington, like when I was in high school.
I mean, it's sort of like crazy to think about now, but I do remember my aunt used to get sleeves of frozen Londers bagels.
She lived in Boston, and that was the first time that I had had a bagel was at her house.
Frozen onion Londers bagel.
I mean, it was thawed, toasted, but and I, I mean, I thought it was great.
Like I thought they were delicious.
And and Lenders is largely, you know, responsible for like the spread of bagels because Lenders was a bakery in New York City, and they sort of figured out like, hey, if we freeze these things, like we can start distributing them like far outside of New York.
So they developed the technology to freeze bagels.
I don't know, which is putting them in the freezer if they're supposed to be on the but then distribution.
So like people in small town Vermont could have, you know, a bagel experience for the first time.
Yeah.
A bagel experience.
Uh bagel experience.
A very specific bagel experience.
Yeah.
And I think there's, you know, probably something great about, you know, exposing people to bagels, and it's probably had a lot to do with where we are now with bagels, but a lender's bagel is not gonna be my choice for a bagel experience.
Yeah.
Yes.
Given a choice.
Yes.
It's also interesting to think about like how like how much time went by before bagels became chainified.
Like a really I mean, when you think about the big chains, like the Brugger's bagels I was talking about, like it didn't open its first store until 1983, which is pretty late.
Like when you think about like bagels were in New York a hundred and you know, whatever, a hundred and some odd years before that.
Yeah.
Um, and then Einstein Brothers, like that didn't open until 1995, you know, when I was a senior in high school.
So it's like, you know, now I think you can't like swing a dead cat without seeing a, you know, hitting a bagel, as expression goes.
I'm always saying that.
Yeah.
So where are you right now in your life in terms of bagels?
Do you are it's your favorite bagel lender style, or are you more an artisan wood-fired-well, you know, I agree with you on one thing and one thing only.
I um I like a smaller bagel.
Bagels have gotten too big.
You should be able to eat a whole bagel.
You know, like I don't want to eat a half bagel.
Like because then it's like you cut it in half crosswise or like, you know, like across the, you know what I'm saying?
Like you get the top, whatever.
It's sloppy.
So, first of all, I think most bagels are too big.
So I like a smaller bagel.
I like my bagel to have some chew to it, which you know typically comes from a bagel made with like a higher protein flour.
Like I want it, like I don't want it to be like jawbreaking, but I want it to have some tug to it.
Um, you know, and I've eaten great sourdough bagels, but I don't necessarily think that a bagel needs to or should be sourdough.
Um and the one thing that I really do like, and that I think is harder to find, and certainly is not a hallmark of the Lender style bagel, is you know, you sometimes you get a bagel that has like a very thin crisp crust.
Yep.
Oh, I love that.
Like, and that comes from the boil and the bake, but not everyone gets that right.
Like when it's that shiny, very thin crust, I think is like the ultimate.
Um and you know, around the start of the year, I went to Montreal.
City I love, great food city.
Oh my god, Montreal is amazing.
Uh, and I went to Fairmont and I went to St.
Vietnam, which are the two sort of like best-known um Montreal bagel spots.
And Montreal bagels are significantly smaller.
They are um, you know, cooked in boiled in honey, like water that's had honey added to it.
Uh, and they have like a, they're not quite like the shiny crust, but I have to say, a Montreal bagel is a great thing.
And I ate a bunch of those.
And as is my custom, did I bring back 12 dozen bagels and put them in my chest freezer next to my tortillas?
I sure did.
So everyone in Montreal, check out the thrift stores in Montreal because there were some of Jessica's clothes there that she had to unpack.
I drove to Montreal, so I didn't, I was, you know, I was unfettered by it and get it.
So I've been eating a lot of Montreal bagels, which I know are a different thing, but also a good thing.
I'm not gonna say better than New York.
They're totally different, but very pleasing.
But what about what about you?
What's your sort of archetype of a perfect bagel?
I have very traditional thoughts about bagels.
I think I think I've been deeply influenced by Jonathan Fristik, who is a longtime teacher here at the King Arthur Baking School.
Um, he was sort of our bagel guy.
He grew up in Queens.
Yeah.
Um and I produced the on-demand bagel class that we have on our site.
It's a great class.
He's a great guy.
I mean, he's just he's just a mensch and he knows so much about bagels, but he's super traditional, right?
Um, and so I've absorbed a lot of his opinions.
But then I went to Bagel Fest.
And Bagel Fest is a it's an event in New York now, also in Los Angeles.
Uh King Arthur sponsors it, full disclosure.
Um, and it's a place where bagel makers from across the country converge.
And it's like a light competition.
It's all in fun, you know, but it's a competition, you know, who has the best bagel, but really it's an opportunity to walk around and taste like 20 bagels from the country, you know, at once.
It's super fine.
And bagels, I and it and it's um converted me a little bit to a different style of bagel.
Okay.
Because there's so many bagels that you know, like you hinted at are using sourdough now.
There's so many bagels that are really intentionally going for an open crumb.
Yeah, and they're a much lighter, yeah, much lighter experience.
Um and at first I was like, I don't know, this doesn't this this just doesn't feel like a bagel to me.
But one pr one bagel shop in particular, uh called Fancy Bagels in Kingston, New York, F-A-N-T-Z-Y-E.
Tried them at Bagelfest, happened to be in Kingston a couple months later, went up to Kingston, went to the shop, had just one of my best bagels I've ever had in my life, honestly.
Uh and had been fully converted by this uh by this bagel shop in Kingston.
And it's all sourdough, very chewy, pretty open crumb, but it's crispy, it's not too big, you know, it's boiled.
Uh I don't know.
I I I I was a real cranky bagel guy before, and now I'm just a little less cranky about it.
So I am my answer to your question, you know, now that I've been talking for 20 minutes, is I'm open to lots of different styles of bagels now, which I thought, you know, which I never would have thought I would have been.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, and I think that is something that has happened.
Like, you know, when you talk about the bagel unions of the Lower East Side, you know, they were probably making more or less the same type of bagels.
Yeah.
You know.
And now there is more experiment.
And also it used to be like only Jewish bagels eat bagels.
That is not true anymore either.
No.
Yes.
So I I admit it can be done, which is something I would have never said before.
Yeah.
Which is really uh kind of what this episode is about.
It's all about me and my changing, my change, my bagel journey.
But we invited uh bagel maker from LA.
So who would have ever thought that I would have ever wanted to talk to a bagel maker from LA?
But to talk about, you know, you know, how can we change?
How can bagels change?
How have bagels changed?
Uh, and it's a really interesting conversation.
Carlos Perez is the co-owner of Boil and Bake in Costa Mesa, California.
He grew up in the bagel business and now is part of the new wave of Southern California bagel makers redefining what a bagel can be.
Carlos, thank you for coming on Things Bakers Know.
Thanks for the invite.
I want to start off with a deep question in the bagel world, which is are your bagels New York style bagels?
Uh no.
No.
And I knew the answer to that, of course, because you're calling from LA.
We're talking to you in LA, and uh that's really getting at the heart of what I want to talk about, which is what is a California bagel or an LA bagel?
And is that well, first of all, how would you describe your bagels?
So my bagels, uh, they are so we started with using the term naturally leavened, just because we felt, even though it is sourdough starter-based, all that, but we found that every time we would say naturally leavened.
Uh the reason we didn't want to use sourdough is then we don't want people to assume, because you know, sometimes sourdough bread can be very tanky, very, you know, very sour.
But ours are not.
We try to find the balance between having just that slight ting from the sourdough, but still have that classic bagel y flavor.
But we try to blend ours with the sourdough and the fermentation.
So, you know, the little chewyer exterior, but with a more heavy crumb on the inside.
Kind of that's how our bagels are.
Uh uh heavier, tighter crumb on the inside.
Oh, I'm sorry, a lighter crumb.
So just a lighter crumb.
Yes.
More open crumb.
Yeah.
Open.
So as you're describing your bagel to me, naturally fermented, more open crumb than perhaps bagels on the East Coast or what most people are used to in a bagel.
I feel like you're describing to me what I am now calling a California-style bagel or even an LA style bagel.
Yeah.
And I wonder what you think about that.
Because the re the reason I'm calling it that is because you are one of a handful of bagel shops that have opened up in the LA area in the past few years.
And there's this, there seem to be there seems to be a similar style among these new operations in LA.
And I'm just kind of curious, like what your take is on the term California bagel, if that is something that you think can be classified.
Um, and also if there is a California-style bagel now, how did that happen?
That's a good question.
So now I don't know how it happened.
I mean, I obviously I took inspiration from you know courage bagels, right, and stuff like that.
Like I'm I'm sure you guys did some research.
I grew up in the bagel business, just a local bagel chain here in Orange County.
Then my dad took over when I was a little kid.
So I grew up in the bagel business already.
So as I got older, and then I got a car, and then I, you know, started, you know, going out and trying different restaurants in general.
Started noticing kind of like the bakery scene in LA, and then I, you know, I heard about like courage and stuff like that.
And then when I started noticing like your courage open up and stuff like that, then I was like, oh, I absolutely love this.
You know, it's different, you know.
And then, you know, when I wanted it Yeah, I don't know.
I guess that's kind of what happened.
Now, years later, now that there's more uh establishments, and I feel like LA has created a bagel scene.
I guess you could consider California bagels to be that, you know, it's a lot lighter, you know, sourdough right now with the you know, the height of sourdough bakeries in general, too.
Um how are people reacting to your bagels?
You know, you you opened when?
What what year did you open?
2022 July.
So we're this in a few months, we'll be four years in.
Okay, so four years in, congratulations.
Thank you.
Um what has the reaction been to your bagels?
Uh I mean, overall, it's it's been great.
It's funny because I'll get like, oh, this is different, you know what I mean?
But then it's really funny because we do have a lot of New York transplants, especially post you know, uh pandemic.
A lot of people from the East Coast, New York moved here to Orange County, um, seeking you know more chill life.
But um, I get a lot of New Yorkers that are like, oh, finally, this reminds me of home.
And I'm like, I'll you know, I'm I'm happy that they love it, but I'm like, this is nothing like New York style, but cool things, you know, like it's been really funny, man.
Yeah, it's really weird.
It's been really funny, you know?
Yeah, and then but again, it's been positive.
It's we got a lot of like, oh, this is very different, but it's still very enjoyable, you know what I mean?
Or yeah, it's just it's a tree.
It's it's the feedback has been all over the place, to be honest with you.
Yeah, yeah, it really has, which is really interesting.
Because people have such opinions, such strong opinions about bagels.
Exactly.
And I think like we did a really we try really, we still try really hard to not call it New York style, you know, like we have California style on the board.
Really implement the California as of our, you know, our concept that I feel like maybe that kind of helps when people come in, they don't expect that.
You know what I mean?
They're just like because for me, when I I wasn't trying to be anything New York, Montreal style, whatever.
I was just trying to I created a bagel recipe that I really thought was delicious, and I'm like, if you like it, you like it, cool.
And so far, people like it.
That's just kind of the approach I took, you know?
Yeah.
I'm not trying to copy anything.
Really quick, literal interjection before I forget.
When you asked me about like when I noticed the bagel change, the first time I was when Blackseed bagels first opened.
Because when I was like 20, like in 2011, I started traveling to New York a lot, and Blackseed bagels was the first time I noticed like, oh, people were starting to try to do different things with bagels.
That's I wanted I didn't want to forget about Blackseed.
Yeah.
Blackseed being uh a bagel shop that, yeah, to your point opened around then, around 2010, 2011, here in New York City, still around.
If I'm not mistaken, it was taking some stuff from Montreal.
That's more sort of a Montreal style bagel, um, which I think means wood fired.
Um, but yeah, that it it and you know what, that's a great point because I was here at that time and I remembered the first of all the buzz around uh Blackseed.
It seemed like there was a real hunger for a different style of bagel.
It was the first time somebody did something completely different, especially in the Mecca of bagels.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's go back to when you were developing the bagel.
I love that I love what you said that you just developed you made a bagel that.
You loved.
Take me back to those days when you were developing.
Where were you developing the bagel and and and what was that time?
Um so again, I worked my dad's business from high school.
I graduated in 2008 until you know, especially COVID.
So I just was managing more, you know.
I I just learned I learned the kitchen just through working, you know, at the three locations.
So I was like almost like a self-taught cook, I guess, and just going out and trying new things, traveling around the country.
Um but I was like, you know, just I I think uh creatively speaking, I was getting a little, I guess, bored, you know, because again, these restaurants have been around, it's just maintenance, you know.
So yeah, like I was doing great.
It's my family business, I'm happy.
But like there was a creative side of me, you know, I'm a musician, haven't played in years.
I guess I still call myself a musician, but there's that creative side of me that I guess was like, you know, missing something, you know, like something I wanted to do myself, not a brand that my family took over, and we're just maintaining it and you know, just making it better, but you know, the foundation is there.
So then I kind of always talk to my dad about like I want to open something new, I want to open something with my own twist.
And then that's when I noticed courage.
And I was like, okay, that's cool.
And then started seeing other places or bakeries open up, and then one time I told my dad, I'm like, um, you'd be cool if I step away from the company and like try to do my own thing.
And my dad was like, dude, of course I, you know, he's been super supportive.
I mean, obviously, he's he is my you know, my parents are my I would say, you know, partners, silent partners in this project.
Um, so he I got really lucky because they let me use, you know, our bagel business to develop my own stuff, you know.
So I would go in a night when the crew was gone, you know, 10, 11 at night and just experiment with my dough and bake it there, you know.
Because I knew at 3 a.m.
I have to get out of there before their bakers came in, kind of thing.
So yeah, I got really lucky in that sense.
Thank you so much for talking to us, Carlos.
Uh, we really appreciate it.
And I think keep on pushing those bagels.
Thank you.
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It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers.
For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you.
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Let's hear our first question.
Hi, love you guys.
I was wondering what is the best flour for making bagels.
Do I need a high protein or high gluten flour, or can I use all purpose?
Okay, this is a good question.
This is a foundational question.
So we haven't talked that much on the show about high gluten flour.
High gluten flour is a product that we sell.
Other flour producers also make a high gluten flour.
Um, and that is a higher, also a higher protein flour.
We have talked a lot on the show about what protein levels in flour mean.
And I think our high gluten flour is 14% protein.
So compare that to our all-purpose flour, which is, you know, 11%.
And then our bread flour, you know, comes in in between the two.
So you don't need necessarily high gluten flour to make great bagels, but you do need a higher protein flour.
So, you know, can you make bagels with all-purpose flour?
Yes.
But you're they're going to, you're gonna sacrifice some of that chewiness that you would get by using a flour that has a higher protein, like a bread flour or a high gluten flour.
I think this is where people get sort of twisted and they make bagels that end up just tasting and feeling like bread, is where they maybe they're using all-purpose flour instead.
Because without all that protein in the flour, it's really hard to get the chewy density, which I say with love, you know, that you want in a bagel.
That I want in a bagel.
Yeah.
I mean, then you're starting the the other thing about bagels, which we haven't talked about yet, um, is that you know, that dough requires a really long mix time, like machine mix to you know, get that proper strength and development, which gives it that chewiness.
So obviously, starting with a flour that has more protein in it is gonna give you a head start.
And then, you know, it gets mixed for like, you know, eight or ten minutes in a stand mixer with a dough hook until it's like a really strong dough.
I like to say it's like the alona Mar of dough, you know?
Yes.
I no idea what that means, but yes.
Um gluten flour is a really fun flour to work with, especially for making bagels.
If you haven't used it before, it is remarkable what just a little bit more gluten can do.
Uh sorry, did I pronounce gluten right?
I think it's a little hit your tea.
Yeah, I gotta hit my tea.
It's remarkable what a little more gluten can do.
When I make bagels with high gluten flour, I'm like, it's this this is what they make rubber bands out of.
It is like the dough is so strong.
You can tug at it and it doesn't, it doesn't break.
It doesn't tear.
Yeah.
Um with bread flour, you need to, you know, do a little bit more mixing.
You need to develop that gluten a little bit more.
High gluten flour allows you to do a somewhat shorter mix because it gets there quicker.
Um it also makes the bagels relatively easy to shape.
It's not a sticky dough.
Uh, it doesn't stick to the countertop.
You do maybe need to let it rest a bit more than you would maybe with uh bagel made from bread flour because the gluten is so strong.
Yeah, snapping back snapping back.
Um especially when it comes to the rolling stage.
You know, rolling stage, yeah.
It just wants to, you know, you roll your snake, say if you're shaping your bagels by, you know, forming a snake and then wrapping around your fingers and sealing it.
Um, you know, the snake wants to snap back.
Yes, right.
So you just have to, and I that's what it's interesting to do bagel making.
I mean, in a lot of things in baking, in a sort of serialized way, right?
So it's like you roll one snake, then you roll the others, then you come back to the first one.
And by the time you get back to, you know, you've done a dozen bagels, you come back to the first one, it's like had five minutes or seven minutes to kind of relax, and then you'll be able to stretch it to the length that you want.
Totally.
Um, yeah, I think um high gluten flour is like a fun thing to have in your toolkit.
I mean, it's not something you're gonna use for cakes, like you're gonna use it for bread.
And you're gonna use it for bagels.
So it has, you know, a more limited application than say the all-purpose, but the applications that it is intended for, I think it really shines.
Yeah.
And bagels is one of them.
And interestingly, we've spent a lot of time on this program, not today, but in other episodes, talking about sourdough loaves with big open crumbs.
And a lot of people who are doing those really high hydration, super open sourdoughs are throwing a little bit of high gluten flour in the mix because that protein is creating that really strong gluten network that can support a really um open crumb and a lot of a lot of air.
Yeah.
So it it has applications beyond bagels.
Yeah.
So go get it.
Get it back.
Yeah, great question.
Um, let's hear our next one.
What should I add to the water to boil the bagels in?
I have been adding molasses, and I'm not super excited about the sheen and the finish of the skin.
It just doesn't feel like the bagels that you get at a true bagel shop.
What's the best option at home to boil the bagels in?
This is controversial.
And I think you know, back to what we were saying earlier about regionality.
You know, there is some regional indication, I think, for what you do or do not put in your water.
So typically, I think I can say typically, um, there is some sort of sweetener added to the water in which you boil your bagels.
Um we were talking earlier about Montreal, that sweetener is honey, which gives them, you know, a sort of distinctive flavor.
But also, I mean, barley malt syrup is another common addition.
Um, some people put brown sugar in their water.
I mean, we know that there are other strong opinions of this company about this, including we we mentioned, you know, Jonathan Frischick as our our, you know, our bagel.
Our true source of bagel knowledge.
Yes.
And he has a he has a take on this.
Yeah, he doesn't put anything in his water at all, which I think is an interesting take because it really drives home the point that this is not a uh this is not a critical part of the process.
You're you can still make a bagel without putting honey or barley malt uh syrup in your water.
Um so it just in case anybody's really worried about that, don't let that stop you from making bagels.
Um I think he doesn't like to put anything in his water because he just doesn't want a sweet bagel.
And that is, you know, another sort of um criticism of a lot of modern bagels right now is that they are pretty sweet, that you can get some pretty sweet bagels out there.
So anything to cut down on that, uh I mean and adding a some sweetener to the water will help with browning, but it's not the only I mean a strong bake will also help with browning.
And it helps with shine too.
I mean, gives you it gives your bagel it helps with the appearance of your bagel and and the flavor.
I don't I don't mind a little sweetness on my bagel, so I put whatever in there.
I if I had I don't know, are you personally asking me caller?
Well, let me tell you.
Uh if I have a liquid sweetener around like the malt syrup or honey, maybe even maple syrup, I'll maybe I'll throw a little bit in there.
But I brown sugar, white sugar, that's why I draw the line.
You know anything granulated?
No.
I mean, and I would say barley malt syrup, it's not the easiest thing to get your hands on.
Like they have it in I mean, it's not the hardest thing, but they have it in health food stores, but I was gonna say you gotta go to that health food store.
You know, sometimes that feels like a roadblock, then you could use a different sweetener or you can leave it out.
There's not like a hard and fast rule about it.
Yeah.
So do what you want to do.
You know, live your life.
Yep.
Um let's go to our last question.
What is the best way to shape bagels?
Have you noticed how many love callers want to know about the best way?
Yeah.
I mean, I I share that.
You're like, tell me the best place to get the chocolate chip cookie.
Tell me the best.
I mean, and sometimes there is a clear best.
And sometimes there isn't.
I mean, I don't think we're just hedging our best to say, like, you know, there are different different strokes for different folks.
Um however, there is a best way to shape a bagel.
No.
Well, what actually I think I wonder what you were gonna say it is, because uh well, you know, there are two main ways to shape a bagel, which we can go over.
Um, they both get you bagels, and so it they're both fine.
Um I have a pretty strong opinion about which ways preferred.
And to my shock and dismay, one day I opened up our big book of bread, our own book.
It's what's the best bagels, and saw that it was shaped in the way that I do not do it.
So uh which I think just goes to show that you're right, there are there are many ways, and they're all they're all gonna get you there.
Um in the big book of bread, yes, you poke.
You make a you make a round of dough and you poke through it with your thumb, and then you sort of use your fingers to expand the hole.
If you those of you on watching YouTube can can see me.
Yeah, and there are yeah, there are some pictures in the b big book of bread that illustrate this idea.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I want to say something about that, which is that I think if you are a new bagel baker, it is perhaps easier than the other method.
Because the other method has you rolling a length of dough into a snake, like we were talking about, and then you sort of wrap the snake around your four fingers of your hand, and you know, overlapping the ends slightly.
And then, you know, you press to seal and then you roll on that seam there where you've sealed the ends together.
Right.
And, you know, if you're good at it, you can get a uniformly, you know, wide bagel all the way around.
Like you, or you can just get a uniform bagel.
If you're not good at it, you get a bagel that's like uniform except where the seams connect and it's like thin and you know, and weird.
Yeah.
So I would say like having made bagels, many bagels in my life, I prefer the snake method.
Like I think, I don't know, it's like to me, it's like a more pleasing round shape, but the hole is a little bit bigger.
Um, but I would say it's it's more challenging to get an even bagel.
So if you're making bagels for the first time, you might want to start with the poke method because you don't have to worry about the seam.
And like if you don't connect the seam well enough, like the bagel can come apart in the water.
Yeah.
You know.
I think that the the rolling and shaping around your hand, I think is the traditional way.
And so that's why some people are partial to that and think that's the only way to do it.
As we know, bagels are, you know, people have a lot of feelings steeped in bagel tradition about you know how to uh how to make them.
Uh my only concern about the poke method, which I think is a perfectly great method and will get you a good bagel, is that you make the hole big enough because what I think is a tragedy is when the bagel hole closes and then you have something that looks like looks like a butt, you know, like uh you know, or it looks like a swollen eye, like someone's been punching some punched in the eye.
Um and you know, I don't know if you watch that video that uh Priya Krishna did uh New York Times where she went to the bagel shop.
It was like a day in the life of the bagel.
And she, you know, tracks them through the process of making these bagels.
And it was amazing to watch like the pro bagel makers that are rolling two bagels on their hands at once, like is really kind of next level.
So fast.
I am not fast like that.
I am very slow.
Um, but yeah, like we said, there's no like right way, there's no best way.
There's just sort of two different paths, two different paths, both of which will get you a good bagel.
Yeah.
If you do it right.
All right.
Thanks for those questions, callers.
We're now going out of the question segment and into the opinion segment because every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-threaded ideas are in our head.
Cannot wait to hear what your final just opinion of season three is.
Don't you like how I go from the question period where I'm like, it's fine, it's all good.
Like everybody do what you want, it all works.
And then we get to the opinions.
And I'm like, but actually, there's only one right way.
I think there is nothing more gross.
Okay.
I mean, there are probably more gross things, but cream cheese applied to a hot toasted bagel.
Make this make sense to me.
Because I mean, I know in New York, as you said, like most bagel shops are not gonna toast a bagel because they're fresh and delicious, but also probably because they know it's gross to put cream cheese on a hot bagel because it starts to slide around and melt off.
I mean, people do it all the time.
They're like, toast my bagel, and then uh, I'm like, what?
Like then, and you know, it does present a quandary because I do like a toasted bagel, especially like if you're not getting a super fresh bagel.
The shock on your face, I wish.
People go go go to YouTube so you can see it.
Like I do like a toast on a bagel because often the ones I'm getting are not like super fresh.
You know, I'm not going to the New York bagel shops and getting it.
So I like a little toast, but then I'm presented with a dilemma.
If I want to put cream cheese on that, like I have to let the toasted bagel cool.
Yeah.
And that's kind of weird then, because like a toast, a cold toast, like we're not in England, you know.
I don't want cold toasted things.
Like, no.
Wow, shade to England.
Um, so I don't know.
I just I see people doing it.
I see people toasting that bagel and then slapping that cream cheese on.
And not for me.
Okay.
No, thank you.
Uh I you know, I think this is a pretty tame Jesse Pine.
I agree with you 100%.
I think I think what you're doing right here is a PSA to America.
Like, stop doing this thing that doesn't make any sense.
You're not, if you're putting cream cheese on a hot bagel, you're not really getting the cream cheese.
It's melted all over your knife.
Like, where is it?
I don't know, but you don't you didn't get it in your mouth.
Yeah.
And then and then of course it it follows up with my other problem is like you have to put on so much cream cheese to get it to stick, and then you have too much cream cheese.
Um and then let me just Yeah, if you put a whole half pint of cream cheese on there.
If some of it melts off, yeah.
Who cares?
You're still half a pint.
Yeah, a quarter pint left.
Um and then, you know, let's just say for a second, in closing, what is up with a blueberry bagel?
I'm just gonna leave that there.
Oh, wow.
I'm just gonna leave that there for people to discuss until the next season.
But it's not right.
And as a person that comes from a state where the blueberry is revered.
Oh, yeah.
You know, blueberry's king in my home state of Maine.
But you know where it doesn't belong?
In a bagel.
Well, you know what my favorite bagel growing up was?
The chocolate chip bagel.
Oh boy.
Now I should really go to prison for that.
Yeah.
I mean You should.
I can't believe you're saying that.
I did.
I'm a DGP.
I'm out and I'm reformed.
First, you say New York bagels are trash, and then at the very tail end of the season, you cop to loving a chocolate chip bagel.
Having once loved, yes.
Having once loved.
Well, we've we've grown, we've changed throughout the course of this season and our lives also.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Um, before we go though, what are you gonna bake this week?
Well, speaking of chocolate, you know, because now whenever I talk about bagels, I think chocolate.
Uh we recently came out with a recipe for small batch chocolate cupcakes.
I love this.
Yeah, I mean, I love a cupcake.
I'm a kid at heart.
Yeah.
You know, I'm just a sweet, innocent child, and I want a chocolate cupcake with sprinkles on it.
Am I ever gonna have an opportunity to make 12 cupcakes?
Like, what would I do with them?
I guess I would throw them in the freezer, which is something my mom does.
I didn't know you could do it.
Oh, she puts the frosted cupcakes in the freezer.
Yeah.
Full frost.
I mean, she'll just buy them at the bakery and there's bam in the freezer, and they come, I mean, it works.
Uh but I don't do that.
And so the small batch chocolate cupcake recipe is for me.
Because I think it makes four, which is about how many I will eat after dinner.
Yeah, maybe you can give one to your husband and one to my husband and three for me, and which makes a big slice of cake.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I have the opposite problem because I imagine making four cupcakes for my family, and I imagine the revolt I would follow.
Like my children would be like, Where are the other eight?
You know?
Um, but that is a great recipe.
I got to taste that one in development too.
Um, and it's like, you know, it's so great because it's such a small amount of ingredients that you can mix it in a single bowl.
You know, it's really like a no-fuss path to and cupcakes are fast, you know, like they don't bake very long.
It's like start to finish.
You can have cupcakes like almost immediately.
Almost close to immediately.
Yep.
Um, you know, I'm gonna make, well, I I know I've been like agonizing over the weather throughout the course of the season, but I'm at the stage now where I go out to my yard like every day and like look for like what's growing out there.
Like we have a garden, and the first thing that comes up, like that I am like on hands and knees, like pawing around in the mulch for, is our rhubarb plant.
And that to me is like the real harbinger of spring.
I don't have enough to cut from my rhubarb plant yet, but the grocery store now is starting to get some imported rhubarb.
And so I'm gonna make these swirled rhubarb bars.
We've talked about these on the show before.
You really like this.
I love them.
It's a blondie base, and then you make like a quick stovetop jam with rhubarb that gets like swirled into the top.
Yeah.
Um, and they're just really elegant.
I will mention they have white chocolate in them.
Um, and I just I'm you know, I'm on record, so I just omit the white chocolate.
I just do them without the white chocolate.
But if you like what like white chocolate, you know, make the recipe as written.
But those are like a nice little like shoulder season bake when you, you know, you're still waiting on the other stuff.
So I'm gonna make those.
It's a great recipe.
And I get I that is something I I throw in the freezer so I can have rhubarb all summer long or for or for at least two weeks, which is about how long it takes to make it.
Well, and I think it's kind of nice.
Like you make your first rhubarb pie, and then it's like, okay, well, what now?
And I think this is the answer to what now.
Right.
Yeah.
Do you make a like a hundred percent rhubarb pie?
I do.
I don't mess with strawberry rhubarb.
Yeah.
I'm gonna save that opinion for another episode though.
Okay, it's okay.
So we'll save that for season four.
But thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
Yes.
Remember to like the podcast and subscribe to it.
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Like it's it's new to me.
And then you can go back and read or watch, you know, their other work.
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People can just listen their way through all summer long until we're back with season four.
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Yeah.
Everything we do is evergreen.
We never get old.
No, forever young.
We're always right and we're always uh timely.
Yes.
That's the that's the thing about us.
Uh and in the meantime, yes, follow the recipe, folks.
Follow the recipe.
Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.
And me, Jessica Battalana.
Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer, Chad Shennai is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer.
Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
Special thanks to this week's guest, Carlos Perez from Boil and Bake.
To learn more about his work, check out BoilandBake.com.
Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.
This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural.
Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye-free sprinkles, and we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix.
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It was celebratory.
It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday.
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