Meet Dr. Theresa Haskins: The Mom Who Rewrote the Rulebook on Autism

Welcome to Why Not Me the World? Podcast hosted by
Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join
us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will
make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life
people who will inspire and show that you are not
alone in this world. Hopefully you gain more awareness, acceptance,
and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi,
I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to Why Not Me the World?
Joining us today is Teresa Haskins, an educator, research and
notably a mother with an autistic child. Her journey began
seeking answers, which led to providing those answers by immersing
herself in learning. This led to her teaching others how
to help themselves find success and achieve their full potential
in a more diverse, inclusive, and equitable world. It's a
pleasure to have her on to share her expertise with us.
Thanks for joining.
Us, Well, thank you so much for having me. I
really appreciate it.
If you would, let's just tell people what you do
and how you got there.
So currently, there's a lot of things going on. I
have a multitude of rules. I'm a professor at the
University of Southern California. I teach graduate studies in human
resource management and I work there to really push a
neurodiversity lens to help future leaders really try to get
a better sense of how to be more accommodating and
as part of the university. Then I started to see
some of the issues in higher education where I work
with faculty so that they're more inclusive and how they're
designing their learning and working with students. But all of
this actually came about almost was eighteen years ago. Today,
I do consulting and up until recently I was working
with a lot of government agencies on how to build
more of their inclusive teams, and we were really making
a lot of headway in that space. And I believe
that traction will stick regardless of current sentiment. But it
all started with my son. When you have your first child,
or any children, you have visions of what life will be.
My son was a surprise, so you know, his first
year of development seemed fairly typical until we started to
get into the social components that you would start to
anticipate your child to engage in.
What were some of the things that you noticed he
wasn't doing that you thought he should have been doing.
And so he didn't wave, and he didn't say hello
or goodbye or any of those things. And as he
was pushing towards two, he could speak. And I always
like to qualify that that when I say my son
didn't talk. He didn't talk recipically, but he could speak,
so he could count to one hundred, he knew his ABC's,
but he didn't say hello or goodbye. So you know,
there's definitely something going on there. And so you talk
to the pediatrician and they're like, don't worry about it.
Kids developed differently. I'm like, yeah, but this is different
different right, He's not meeting some of those benchmarks that
we have in the developmental checklist. So they, you know,
they send them to audiologists, They check their hearing, they
check their eyes sight like they're looking for some physical problem,
until they come to the conclusion there's no physical problem,
and that leads you to meeting with psychiatrists. In our case,
our son is thrice exceptional. People say twice exceptional, but
he actually is autistic pddnos by the DSM four he's
ADHD and he's gifted. Is an IQ about one fifty,
So that would explain why he was able to read
and write by the age of three, but he still
wasn't talking conversationally. So when you have this extremely bright,
but it typically developing child, you start to think about
how is this going to work? And so, like many parents,
because this was before I was doctor Haskins, I didn't
even my master's yet at the time, as just a
mom and my husband was just a dad, and we
were just trying to get through life right, And so
we have this amazing little boy that's just doing all
these really cool things that nobody pays attention to. You know.
We talked about how he could count to one hundred,
and you know, he was a little bit like the
w B frog. So if you brought him somewhere and
asked him to do something, he wouldn't perform. So then
it's the parents saying these things happen and they're like, oh,
that's probably just psychoalia. He's probably just repeating you. You're
training him to do this stuff. I was not trading
my son to do anything.
That must have been really frustrating to deal with when
you know what you know as a mother, So how
did you handle it?
So you're met with all this disbelief and it was
really really aggravating. But they're little, and you figure they'll
develop in time. And you also, as a society, we
believe that doctors and psychiatrists and teachers know things. We
want to have belief that when they're telling U stuff,
it's true. And so when they're telling you that your
son can't do this, or your daughter can't do that,
or whatever you're being told this week, you believe them.
The great news is that I have eyes and ears
in my own brain, and I could hear what they
were saying, and I knew what I lived, and I
knew what I was doing, and I knew they were wrong.
I thought i'd go back to school and become a
special educator. And I only spent six months in that program.
When semester, I guess, so that's a little less than
six months. And my first class, I mean, everything was fine,
but what they were teach was just wrong. I just
knew it was wrong because it was like hearing the
same rhetoric that I was hearing with doctors and psychologists
of do these things, and I knew those things weren't right.
And so I raised my hand, and I said, hey,
who comes up with this stuff? And that isn't quite
how I said it, but I'll be nice on your podcast.
And the professor said, easy educational psychologists do. He goes,
you know, to be a special educator, you have to
use evidence based methodologies. You can't just make things up.
And I go, somebody's making this stuff up? And I
go who does that? And he goes educational psychologists. I go, oh,
how do I become one of them? So I dropped
out of that program and I rolled in a master's
program and I got my degree in educational psychology. Around
the same time, my son would get close to school age,
so we would go through that rigamal rule because at
that point in time, I still thought my kid would
go to school. I went to school, You probably went
to school. I don't know anything about homeschooling. I'm not
an educator at this time.
With all this happening, what was your next plan of action?
So he goes for intelligence testing and after three days
they stopped the test because they could have went further,
but by state standards, high enough. He gets like IQ
one fifty two or something like that, and like, that's
high enough for our purposes. He was testing an eighth
grade math he's five years old, and so we're sitting
there he should be entering kindergarten, and we have like
the first grade, in the second grade and the third
grade people all sitting around the table, and the principal
on the education is psychologists are like, we hear what
you're saying about his intelligence, but based on his social deficits,
he really should be in kindergarten because we want him
to develop with his peers. And then you could look
at the teachers going, what are we going to teach? Like,
what are we going to do with them all day?
You know, Like he was already reading to he was
like in a developmental preschool class to get some socialization,
and he would read to the other kids he's four.
So my husband and I left that and I'm like,
this isn't going to work. And so we were like,
I guess we'll have to homeschool. So my husband got
the hard job. He actually had to do the homeschooling
of the homeschooling. And I continue to like do my
studies and get my degrees and try to figure out
how to do this stuff. Granted, like my story is
not a homeschooling story. But my story is there was
no system to support us. There were no answers, there
were no resources. No one really knew what to do.
You know, when I asked, well, could he come to school,
you know, maybe start in first or second grade socially,
and then maybe go to the high school to take
some physics classes, and like, we can't have a five
year old in the high school. Like the system's not
built for a child like that. And so we exited
the system and I started studying and testing my theory.
So everything I did with my son, I started to research.
With all the emotions going on, the ups and downs,
researching seemed to be a good thing. Way did that
path of research lead you?
I tested choice making and autonomous learning because one of
the first things we do to autistic children is take
away all sense of choice. Having a set schedule is
different than taking away a ton of me in choice.
And what I found in my life is that whether
it's a disabled person, a child, an elderly person, a
disengaged person, the first thing we do is take away
choice and start to micromanage them, and we take like
away all their identity and sense of self and we start,
we stop listening, and we start becoming extremely prescriptive, and
it's horribly dangerous. I knew my son would be educated
because I could handle that, and I've been in corporate
America and working with entities. I hate to admit it,
Tony pushing three decades now, and I knew that what
I was doing with him and how he was developing.
But then I would be sitting in board meetings and
talent discussions and like, even if I get my son educated,
what's going to happen next? Because based on the people
I'm talking with, no one's ever going to hire him.
So that's when I went to get my doctor, and
I'm like, now I got to figure out how we
change systems? How do we like change organizations? So I
went from how do we educate these individuals? Create more
conclusive classrooms or pathways, opportunities, differentiated instructions, self directed learning,
and then that pivoted to how do we create more
accessible skills based which is ironic because that's a word
being used right now. But most of our interview protocol
and talent assessment is based on extroverted engagement, meaning how
we communicate, whether you tell a good story. You could
be getting a job in accounting Tony, and they'll judge
you on how you answer that question. Right. So somebody
like me, I know I've rambled for a bit. They're
expecting that two minute answer. I give you a twenty
minute answer, right, And so the neurodivergency starts coming out.
So I've really been working with organizations about really thinking
about when you say you want the best talent, how
are you defining that, who are you really including and
how are you judging it? And you know, one hundred
two hundred years ago, introversion was king. It was the quiet,
methodotical person that was the most valued, and now it's
extraversion in charisma as those tied shift. How do we
make sure we're bringing everybody along?
That's a great question. What are you implementing to try
and hopefully change some of this?
The things I do I educate future leaders. I develop
programs for autistic individuals and their families to try to
figure out their own pathways because there is no set path.
One of the things I tell parents all the time
is people want a box solution. There is no box solution.
It's not the answer you want. If we're going to
believe that autism is a spectrum. I know you've had
people tell you that that there's no two people with
autism alike. If you believe that, then you know there's
no box solution, and so it's really being malleable. And
that's why I don't have some ten method pathway of
success because I can't tell a line. It just wouldn't
be true. I really work organically with leaders and parents
and organizations to understand how did it work here? Because
your path to success, you know, at this university will
be different than your path to success at this government entity.
Don't want to say any other names because I want
them to continue the good work that those paths are
going to be very unique to you, just like the individuals.
You're trying to Yeah, when you meet someone for the
first time, you're trying to explain to them what you
just explain to me. How do you get that across?
There's this big mystery in some people's minds on what
autism is. For example, when I first started my podcast,
I knew nothing about autism zero. Now a year and
a half later, I've gathered enough information where I can
understand what people are saying. I can follow along. A
lot of people out there when you mentioned autism, they
think rain Man, which is so far from the truth.
So how do you try to create that bridge? So
the gap between the known and unknown is a little
bit better for those that don't understand autism?
Are you bridge? So it's an interesting thing, Tony, because
if you met me ten years ago, we would spend
a lot of time. I would spend a lot of
time trying to explain to people what is autism, how
does it manifest? What my interactions be like we fast
forward to twenty twenty five. I don't spend a lot
of time talking about that. And the reason why I
don't is because no matter how I try to explain
autism to you, you will start to develop a caricature
and scheme of that individual. It may be true sometimes,
but it may not be true all the time. So instead,
and this happened last year, I was doing a thing
and they're like, but how do I know if they
have autism or ADHD? So I know I should support them,
and I've been trying to unpack that in are you
willing to support people and meet them where they are?
Would you be willing to work with somebody who communicates differently.
Would you be willing to work with people that need
directions in writing? Would you be willing to give people
extra time on a test? Does it really matter why
they need it? More so, does somebody have to have
a documented disability for you to want to meet them
where they are? Tony, I, I mean being short is
not a documented disability. But I can assure you I
am completely disabled at the home depot when I want
something on the top shelf. So what I've really been
working with leaders is stop worrying about my son's disability
or my deficits or somebody with ADHDS. Ask people what
they need to be successful. Assess what you're doing that
could create roadblocks. If I have sensory processing issues, I'll
tell you that I need a quiet work environment. Be
willing to give me that quiet work environment. If I
tell you that people walking into my office is distracting,
then respect that and give me a door to close,
or maybe let me work from home. What I find
is that the accommodation's view, the ADA view of reasonable
accommodation puts this it's an othering where it's like, well,
if I think it's less of you because you need help,
then I'll give you the support you need. And where
that neurodiversity movement is coming in and where I work
with professors and leaders, is saying, if somebody tells you
they need something, believe them. And more importantly, why wouldn't
you give people the supports they need to succeed? And
I'm really trying to take it away from prove to
me you have a problem, so I will help you
and get it to why wouldn't we help anybody. One
of the biggest things I see, Tony, which is why
I work more with leaders and educational institutions and not individuals,
is I'm frankly tired of the autistic community being asked
to change in some way and in essence, be less
disabled to succeed. We don't ask blind people to be
less blind. We don't try to give them training on
how to navigate to pretend they're less blind. And if
we actually believe that autism is a neurological difference. I
know there's people that want to debate whether it's a
disability or not, but our society creates conditions that are
disabling and if we believe that to be true, then
we can't ask autistic people to try to be less autistic.
That's a great point. How do we move forward from that?
I think it's great. There are a lot of people
that help autistic people self advocate. Obviously, I want my
son to have the skills to be able to ask
for what he needs, but it is not on him
or me to install elevators and ramps in a building, right,
And so the onus really is on the other side,
and the other side doesn't have to understand autism, right.
You don't have to understand cerebral policy. You don't have
to understand all the different conditions that can result in
somebody being blind and deaf to understand that there's a
need there that needs to be accommodated. So I've been
really trying to get people to don't overly worry whether
or not somebody is ADHD or autism, because I did
have a CEOs, But how do I know if they're
really ADHD? I go, does it matter? What about if
they're just a typical person that's introverted and focus is
better in a quiet room create And so that's where
that concept of universal design comes from. That's where this
concept of neurodiversity comes from, and I think that, especially
when we're in an environment where people are charged about
everything should be fair and equal. Then let's do that.
Let's create accessible organizations, Let's create the lifts and ramps
of the autism community, because we know what those structures
are from a generalized perspective. And if we incorporate more
skill based assessments, less dependency on your ability to turn
a catchy phrase like I didn't know Tony that every
person applying for a job had to be a marketing expert, right,
how they craft or resume? Come on, if you can
take a course to get a job, they're not hiring
you for your skills, They're hiring you for equip and
that's just not right. So that's what I've really been
trying to work, Like, if you're hiring an accountant, why
do they have to have great communication skills? What are
you actually asking that accountant to do. That's why I think,
especially on the autism side, when we saw autism at
work and all those initiatives, that's why it was in
the tech space because those were the leaders that were
the first to say, you're right, they don't have to
be great at communicators. You're right, I'm not really looking
at their ability to you know, make friends. I need
them to code, or I need them to do technical work.
And that's why we've seen so much more traction on
that side, because we could get leaders to get it.
And so that's how I help leaders come along. I
actually try to shut down the medical model of conversation.
And by the way, in most countries, you're not even
really permitted to ask those questions, like if it was
a medical diagnosis, they're not supposed to ask about your
cancer diagnosis. So we have to be very careful about, well,
how does your autism manifest? None of your business. But
I do need a quiet work space. I do need
you to fall up with meeting notes and having an
agenda before the meeting would be helpful too. When you
say it that way, the things I just asked for
aren't even.
A real Yeah. When I spoke with Temple Grand and
she said, give me a pilot's checklist, I'll get it done.
That's it. And I'll be honest Tony and anybody listening.
Look at a job requisition and how much is that
somebody's perception of the skills you need to do the
job because it's probably the skills they have. And can
you tell me based on that job if you actually
know what your job was going to be like they'll say, oh,
I need you to be able to chop onions and
I need you to be able to saute. In the
job requisition, does it actually tell you what type of
food you're going to cook? Because that's going to tell
you a lot more like McDonald's and Gordon Ramsey all
hire cooks what they're cooking and the skill level involved
is quite different, but their job requisitions would probably not
read that differently. And that's the problem. So I tell
people if you want innovation and you want creativity, of
course we want to promote the autistics side of the house.
But the truth is is you have to open up
pathways for different skills to execute, and so I do
exercises with leaders. That's like if you had a multitude
of different animals and you're like, whoever can climb the
tree gets the job, Well, the monkey's always going to
get it. It was a cartoon designed for whether or
not standardized tests are fair, but that's how we hire too.
And so you have an elephant and a bird sitting there,
they could work in an apple orchard, elephant could pick apples,
move apples, birds could get pests out. Like, but how
you write that requisition and how you look at talent
is going to determine who you would even consider. And
if your myopic in terms of oh, you have to
look like Tony and Teresa and you have to work
the way we do to be successful, you're not even
going to consider the other talent. So I challenge everybody,
look at what you're doing. And if you're like, oh,
they have to have three to five years of experience,
because you know, i'd teach human resources, and I always
challenge those future talent acquisition people to say, what is
it that you think is happening in that three to
five years which is why you're giving that number? And
they're like, well, I mean if you've had x amount
of years of experience, then you've probably had challenges. I go,
so you're making an assumption. Why don't you just say,
I'm hiring an accountant, and I want to know that
you've been through five audits. I want to know that
you've had to like work with a client, Like, what
is it that that experience is supposed to encompass, because
you could have somebody that works ten years and has
never had that problem, and you could have somebody that
got the short straws the accountant and in their first
three years went through ten audits. Right of course, that
might also imply they're not a good accountant in the
first place. That's what we're trying to unpack with talent,
and I just don't think people get it. And the
same thing happens for all those that are like, oh,
the education side, same thing happens with college entry. My
son has as a high school student because he's not
officially a college student, but he's been at the local
college since he was fourteen years old. He has fifty
two credit hours. He has a four point zero in
like the most advanced math classes they have, but to
get full entry, he's still to take his SAT you mean,
the test that predicts whether or not he could have
taken the fifty two credit hours in the four point
zero he has. And so it's these systems that are
designed to try to ensure equity, but there's no thinking
behind him anymore.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I've said that in the
neurotypical world, let alone in the neurodiverse. To me, it
just makes no sense.
We're just not thinking.
I agree, And I don't know if it's because you know,
we created rules to ensure safety, but then at what
point do we start to lose sight of the evaluation
of that safety net?
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, what is very important to you that
you need to let our listeners know about the journey
in what you do.
The most important thing people need to know is that
there is not a typical line of development, especially in autism.
It's in a typical development, but that doesn't mean an
incomplete development. And so what people need to understand is
and people say it, but I don't think they really
appreciate what it means. Different doesn't mean less. A perfect
example is because the majority does develop in a more
synchronous pattern, a more linear pattern that has like mainstreamed,
it's very hard to accept and acknowledge deviations of development
from that pattern. So a perfect example is my son
at five or six was reading and writing and doing
math at like middle school levels. Couldn't tie his shoes.
He had other, you know, physical limitations that other children
at that age would have mastered, right, like self care
and pottying and things like that, you fast forward and
now we're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old and they're
driving and dating and doing all these things. Ok, a
lot of autistic individuals with a typical development, especially if
they're gifted and twice exceptional, they're not driving at eighteen.
They're socially awkward and probably not playing sports because their
interests are somewhere else. And so when you meet with people,
because it's our typical society, they're like, well, what do
you want to do when you grow up? And what
sports do you play? And are you driving yet? Because
that's what they know. And so when all of your
questions are no, they're like, oh god, that must be horrible.
Well is your child taking senior level college classes? Have
they done an internship at NASA? Like I could ask
questions that you would say no to two And so
I don't think my son is better than others who
haven't had those achievements. And other people's children are not
better because they have achievements he hasn't had. I think
the world, just the way humans are, we create measuring
sticks of competitiveness, and if you're not playing sports, then
are not manly enough? And if you're not driving or
you don't have a job.
Yeah, it's sad. We have to compare like that. Like
you said, everyone's different.
That's the typical measuring stick. And this would be like
every autistic parent out there will tell you this. I
praise you for your kid's achievements, and I acknowledge those
typical milestones, and I think it's great. Don't diminish my
child because our milestones are different, and don't dismiss them. Tony,
I can't tell you how often I sent in conversations
and people talk about, Oh, they're going to the prom
and they're going to the high school. Though I sent
did Good to a dance. But they're going to prom,
and they're going to high school, and they're doing all
these things, and they're driving, and they got the first
job working at Wendy's. That's great. That's great for them.
I'm happy. And they're getting into college and they're going
to move away. Good. So then I share my stuff
and it's like it didn't happen because it's not on
their checklist, and they'll actually be like, oh, my god,
do you think ever drive? Did you just hear he
did an internship? Parents of autistic children. I see you,
and your achievements are just as valid. I think that's
what everybody needs to understand. It's weird, Tony. I've been
saying this to educators for a long time. I don't
like K through twelve education. They expect these children, all children,
to be like the jack of all trades of everything
K through twelve and then there's this magical thing that happens.
You get into adulthood and you get to actually choose
what you're good at and hang out with the people
you want to hang out with and pursue the hobbies
of interest to you, and all of a sudden, everybody
starts thriving because plumbers become plumbers, and engineers hang out
with engineers, and musicians go with musicians. I think we
need to start that earlier. I don't know why there's
like this weird turning.
Yeah, I agree one.
Right, Yeah, you wouldn't hang like you're a musician. You've
been doing it for years. It's not because you can't
appreciate other fields, but you're probably not hanging out with them.
When I was a sophomore in high school, I was
taken geometry. What am I taking this for? I want
to be a musician. I totally get what you're saying here.
And if we want to teach some uniform stuff, teach
kids that they have to pay taxes and how to
file them, like how to balance a checkbook. There are
some practical things we don't teach exactly at all, and
then there's other things where it's like, oh, we've decided.
I think that was my parents' generation. We al was
to go to college for some reason, and then people
came out the other side saying, did I have to
go to college? So if anybody could take anything away
as we have got to stop pitting ourselves against each other,
because the truth is is we all can't be good
at the same things. And by the way, if we
all had the same interest in the same talents, the
world wouldn't work.
It'd be boring too.
Like we need everybody and we need to stop diminishing.
Like I know Danny talked about this. We need to
stop diminishing the trades. We need trades just as much
as we need doctors. And we need to just value
people more, value humans and stop trying to measure everybody
against yourself because we're not in competition with you.
Absolutely. This has been a really good conversation. I appreciate
you coming on my show.
I'm really glad to be here. One thing I just
want to leave everybody with is there's a lot of
things going on in the world right now, but you
and your family matter, and there are plenty of us
out here, like Tony that are going to keep listening.
We're going to keep working because you exist. You deserve
to thrive, you deserve education, you deserve gainful employment, you
deserve respect, and that's what I work towards and that's
what we're going to keep doing.
That's great, that's great. Well, this has been good, very
very informative, Tony.
There's a lot of work to be done, and I'm
glad to be part of a not quiet, but small army.
That'll be one of the things as you continue on
this journey. It is a small consortium of people in
this space.
Yeah, you are so correct. There. Again, I really appreciate
you coming on.
Really nice to meet you. Well, I will, but thank
you so much for having me.
It's been my pleasure. Thanks again, thanks for taking the
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