Rosemary's Baby with Jessica Harper

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Speaker 1: On the bel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the beck Del cast. Lay better than I so like a cat that sounds sick. Hello and welcome to the back dol cast. La La la that's scary. That's pretty creepy. Maybe too young. It sounded like a baby. Oh well, I'll speaking of babies. That's relevant. Hey, good transitioningway. This is the Bechtel Cast. My aunt Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is the Becktel cast. La La la La La La La la La. We're talking about La La Land. Just kidding out. I'm not ready to talk about Lalla. I will never be ready to talk about La La Land. Not today. The movie we are talking about the is Rosemary's Baby, and we'll jump into that in in a moment. Before that, we'll just give you a quick overview what the show is. We talk about the portrayal and representation and treatment of women in movies. We use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point to initiate that larger conversation, and the Becktel test is, of course, a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel that requires that two female identifying characters, they must have names, they must speak to each other in the story that they're in, and that conversation cannot be about men. Right then for us, it's just like a two line exchange. Let's let's demonstrate it, alrighty, Hey, Caitlin, Hey Jamie, how did you really feel about the La la laws that I was serving? I felt that, um, I have some notes, Okay, Okay, I'm ready to receive um. I think it just like keep practicing and you'll see improvement. Okay, that makes sense. Yes, that was a really compelling I think that's maybe our most compelling. Like there was some tension because I'm not good at receiving criticism. There was a lot going on. Sure, it was a very rich conversation. It was good. It was good at this. Okay, Rosemary's Baby, we should introduce our our guests before we go any further, and asked me too. She is an actor. You know her from many films, including both Suspiria films as well as My Favorite Year, and she has a new podcast. Um, it's a ten episode memoir of her childhood called Winnetta. It is Jessica Harper. Thank you so much for being here, so much for having me. Of course, we're so happy to have you. And we're talking about Rosemary's Baby. So tell us your your history, your relationship with this movie. I first saw it, I think when it came out, which was, oh my gosh, this dates me. I was a fully grown person, and I was trying to remember yesterday how did I react and my reaction to it now, of course having rewatched it yesterday, which was so much fun, But my reaction to it, I believe was so different to what it was because in sixty eight, prefeminism, you'd have a very different take on this movie. So, um, in sixty eight when I first saw it, I was just simply horrified, and yesterday I was horrified. With a whole lot of interesting side notes, which I'm sure we'll get into indeed, But um, it's a fabulous movie. It is a well crafted, really well crafted, so well written. The direct is incredible, even though there are some people who might not like the director anymore. Well, you will talk about that as well. Pretty some strong cases. Yeah, my history is I saw it for the first time in college as a as a young film buff, and so that was probably around fourteen years ago, and I think I only saw it that once before revisiting it for the podcast. But I remember thinking, I remember really liking it because as far as horror films go, I not such a huge fan of slashers, but I love anything that has to do with the occult and like kind of like satanic stuff. I don't know why I never revisited it, but yeah, I just I really enjoyed it, but it was just that one time that I had seen it. What about You, Jamie, I had not seen this movie before. It's and it's like one of those movies that has been you know, recommended to this show and to me specifically for years. But I think it's just I think by the time I was aware of this movie, I was also aware of all the Polanski stuff, and I kind of avoided it for that reason, which is like, I mean, it's so it's so weird because going into this movie, I was almost like, I kind of hope I don't like it, because then it will be a lot easier to have the I mean, it's always easy to have an art artist discussion if you don't like the art anyways, and you're like, oh, well it sucks and he and he sucks. Usually he uh sucks, and so put it all in the trash. But it was like, I mean, this was like a challenging watch in a lot of ways because I did there's a lot about this movie to love it. I had been avoiding it because I was aware of all of the allegations before, and so I just I don't know. I mean, I just try to navigate around. There's a million movies you can watch anything. But yeah, I enjoyed it, and I feel and I feel weird. I know, I have such complicated feelings. Usually, like before we even start the episode, I have a fairly good idea of like what nipple rating I'm going to give it, I have no idea, Like I think it's going to take, like whatever discussion we have to, we're going to have to We're going to have to dig really deep because I just I feel very conflicted and challenged by this movie. And this is a yeah, and it's aligning, and Jessica, you were starting to get at it. I think that there's like, so much context to this movie that's important to how you interpret it. And it's like, I can't imagine seeing this movie ten years ago. Like I it's yeah, because when I talked for the first time, if anyone was talking about Roman Plansky and his horrific crimes, I wasn't aware of it. I didn't really know. It was years later until I started hearing things about that. So what year was that? That was much much later. I was just going to say the Sharon Tate murders and all was here. It's the year after the murders. Okay, so the big sympathy for Roman hadn't really kicked in yet when this came out. If you know what I mean, right right, there was a whole big, poor Roman era, right right, which when morphed into something entirely new, much lighter. Yeah. Yeah, Tape murders were in nineteen sixty nine, and then like his allegations start I think in the late seventies. That sounds right, and then he is still technically I don't know what the word is for what he's He can't come back to this country without getting or arrested because he admitted that he committed and we'll talk about somewhere. There's so much okay, so with how much further too, I'll get through the recap as quickly as possible. Feel free away in at any point in the recap because this movie is crazy. It's crazy, and it's long. Um okay. So we are introduced to a married couple. Rosemary that's me, a Pharaoh's character, and guy that's John Cassavetti. Jo hot, so hot, My god, it's upsetting. I mainly learned about him a bitch. It's like, how long did it? Okay, we'll get it. How long did it take him to sell that first baby to the Like twenty seconds? He was like so fast? Yeah, okay, we're getting ahead of ourselves. I mainly knew about John Cassavetti's through like film school, like textbook stuff and and all of his directorial work. And then I was like, wait, no one told me he was hot. Unfortunately, he is hot, so hot. Okay. So they're looking for an apartment together to move into in New York City. Ever heard of it. They're looking at this one giant apartment. I don't know how they end up affording it because he is a struggling actor and she is a homemaker, Like, who can live in it's the Dakota, which is overlooking. Yeah, so's this like enormous apartment icon they can afford it somehow, Even before they get mixed up with you. There was a little suspension of disbelief there. Maybe just rent on haunted apartments is really low. Maybe. So one of the first things I noticed about this apartment is that there is a closet that's blocked by a large piece of furniture, and that will become important later, believe it or not. And Rosemary notices too. Yes, she's she's so active in the movie. I was always I was so ready to be like plankey, she's so yeah. So then a friend of There's Hutch tells them that this building that they're moving into, called the Bramford, had a bunch of weird shit happened in it. There were sisters who cooked and eight children. There was a guy who practiced witchcraft and who have claimed to have conjured up the devil there. So they're like, whatever, we'll move in anyway, happens every time you move somewhere. It's like there's every every place has its statue, everybody has some child eaters in it. So they move in and then Rosemary meets one of her neighbors, Terry, and one night, poor Terry Terry Y. Yeah, they have this great spoiler alert Bechtel test passing huge in the laundry room. Even if it was about doing laundry, let's not forget that still domestic overte Y Terry. It was I was in the middle. I was like googling stuff in real time as I was watching, and I was like in the middle of looking up Terry and then can you find out what happens to Terry? And the person that Rosemary mistakes her for actress and model? Name was it Vicky? It was some anyway, that's actually who plays that character. Oh that's funny. I forget the name. So this isn't a good story. But she's like, hey, aren't you like, oh, thank you super producer Sophie. She's like, aren't you Victoria Vettry And she's like, no, I'm not. But guess what Victoria Victory plays that part. There's so many little credited as a different a different name. But anyway, A fun fact about that is that I was like when I saw her in the game, I was like oh, I recognize her from something. She was a playmate Model of the Year under a different name, um, the year this movie came out, which like a lot of playmates would do back in the day, is like use different names, um. But she was Angela Dorian, same lady right on wild Okay, r I p Terry do all kinds of snaky references and yeah, tell me about it, um. And then so after they've moved in, Rosemary and Guy here some like strange chanting coming from next door. And then a short time later, Terry commits suicide by jumping out of a window. And she had said, oh, I live with this older couple, the Cast of Vets, which is confusing because John cast sa Vettius is in this movie and their name is the cast of it. Anyway, She's like, yeah, they were a family to me. They brought me in. And then she commits suicide. So something is amiss here. And then they meet this couple Roman, and she commenced, he said, we don't really know what happened. We don't know. We never we have her suspicions, though, suicide not being one of them. And she has this necklace with a charm on it stace stinky necklace. I love the detail that the necklace stunk. Yeah, especially when that receptionist at the end is just like, yeah, everyone in this office smells crazy, like you're just like So then they meet Roman in Many cast of It and can I just entergect One thing? So in this little babble, this jewel that's hanging around her neck. Inside it is a route called Tannis Root. Yes, which is very important because later Rosemary holds this thing up to the mirror and she says, Tannis anyone, which is one of my favorite lines in the movie. She she talks to herself a lot in this movie. I know I'll either her, It's either her Minny and I mean I'd pick me over many. Who can she trust? She can't trust anyone, but I mean Ruth Gordon and she's so great. Yes. So um, they made the Neighbors and Rosemary and Guy go over to dinner at the cast of Vettes and Guy is like reluctant at first, but then they start hanging out with them more and more and the castavettes are getting a little clingy. Meanwhile, Guy is like, Rosemary, let's have a baby, and then she's very excited because she wanted that, and then she's about apparently, yeah, it seems to be her one the whole thing. I was like, we don't know a lot about her. I don't know to be a mother so interesting. Why is that? Maybe because it was written by men. Yeah, in nineteen sixty six, by the way, right now, So the more time they spend with the cast of vettes, the more weird things are happening. Like guy who is an actor and who was up for a part gets it because the other guy who was up for that part suddenly goes blind. And then many brings over this dessert which she calls chocolate mouse, which is just moose, and it makes Rosemary all loozy and she notices this like chalky undertaste, and then she eats a little bit but not all of it, but then she passes out anyway, presumably from having eaten this. And then there's this dreamlike sequence in which she is surrounded by naked people who are chanting and that she they're tying her to a bed, and her husband guy or is there, and the cast of vettes are there and they're all participating in what seems like some sort of demonic ritual. They're nude, but they're also talking to each other. It's like it was like is this chill or not? Like I know it's not chill, but they were all just like standing in the nude, like, hey, is she awake? And then it's very casual, very chill, and then a demon looking guy rapes Rosemary. Yes, and then she wakes up. She's covered in scratches, and then Guy is like, like, I happen to watch the scene like four or five times. It is we have to. We will spend a lot of time in packing this scene, I'm sure. But basically he's like, I had sex with you last night while you were sleeping. I didn't want to miss baby night. And she was like oh and then no problem. Marital rape is legal in New York. Okay, yeah, so yeah, well we'll spend a lot of time on packing that um. And then Rosemary goes to a doctor, doctor Hill, and finds out that she's pregnant, and then Guy insists on telling the Castavettes right away. It's like the first thing he does, and then they recommend it. She see a different obstetrician, Dr. Sapristein and then she's having a lot of pain with her pregnancy, she's losing weight. Everyone keeps telling her that she looks like shit. Everyone keeps telling her she looks like everybody's look like chalk, you look like death warmed at one after the next. So it's and and it's like the one and I'm sure what we'll get to this too, but like the one choice that she makes without consulting anybody as her hair cut, and everyone is so mean to everyone the haircut we have to that's another unpacking about the haircut, Like what the one? The one, but it's like the one thing she does without checking him with anyone, and everyone's like yeah, even her friend, yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So then Hudge comes back and he wants to talk to Rosemary, but he does hate her haircut and he comments on her weight a lot. Was just to like him, right, But then when she goes to meet up with him because he feels that something's wrong with this situation, And when she goes to meet up with him, she discovers that he has suddenly fallen into a coma. And then her pains are getting worse and she wants less and less to do with the cast of Vets, and she doesn't want to go to dr Sapristine anymore. She stops drinking the herbal drink that Minie has been making her and then Guy does not react well to this. He is furious. And then at a party that she insists on throwing and insist on not inviting the cast of ITTs to or the Sapristines are like anyone, her friends like give her a regular drink, and then the pain goes away. It's unclear exactly what causes the pain to go away, you know, maybe it's witchcraft for not sure, we don't know, but it goes away because she's threatening like I'm never going to go to sapristine again. And then suddenly the pain vanishes and we get a brief scene with her and her friends, which I was waiting for the whole time, like where are her friends? She didn't seem to have any best use anywhere, right, And all of a sudden, there they are at the party. There they are. I'm like, what did we learn what their names were? But either way, there's a good scene. It's like they're immediately responsive to her pain. They're immediately like, no, this doesn't sound like what should be happening. They make sure Guy stays out of the room, and that interaction empowers Rosemary a little bit to stand up to Guy, who immediately is like, you're never going to see your friend the end, sorry, you know, like, and calls them dumb bitches and I'm at icon guy. He is literally guy, And then we cut immediately to a few months later, and now she is gregnant as Hell's thriving and yeah, she's they're making preparations for the baby. They're making this nursery and everything. And then her friend Hutch dies and his friend gives Rosemary a book that Hutch wanted her to have called All of Them, which is Ye. And then Rosemary has told that the name is an anagram, and she figures out that it's not the name of the book, but it's the name of someone in the book, Stephen Marcato. And anagrams too, Roman Castavet, why are you criminals got to keep using that? Criminals should just stop doing anagrams, just makeup. It's so interesting too, because, as you pointed out, his last name is very close to Cassavetties, and that's obviously a thing they thought and laughed about before they shot the movie, right and then you know which came first, the name or the anagram. So they go, Okay, the title is going to be this, so let's see, how can we wait here? And there's so many name games in this thing. The Roman, I mean, the bad guy next door is named Roman, of course, and which can play into this whole thing about what happened later in the seventies and how the devil man. And and then of course, as you said, her husband's name is guy was totally generic word for dude, right, And she's Rosemary, like the virgin Mary. Oh my god, it goes on and on. Rosemary is also an herb. There's a lot of herbs, herbs, stinky herb. Also, this is a great time to point out that my name, Caitlin Darante anagrams to a number of things. You've got Latin d answer U T I that we've got um cat turd in line, you've got there's there's a bunch. Well, I'm gonna go do anagram myself. Fun. It's really fun anyway. So in the book, she learns that Romans father was a witch who performs rituals and uses like baby's blood because it's the most powerful blood. To use. Sure. So Rosemary tells Guy about all this and then she's like, I never want to see the cast of Its again. My baby is in danger. We're gonna move out. Uh. And then she goes to Dr Sapristein and tells him about all of this, and he tells her that Roman is ill and then he doesn't have long to live and she's like, okay, well maybe this will solve my problems. Uh if they he just dies and is out of the picture. So Guy and Rosemary see the cast of vets off because they're going to be traveling to all these different places because he's a world traveler. And then Guy throws out the book that Hutch gave Rosemary. Um, So she goes and gets more books about witchcraft and sort of confirms suspicion that she had that the coven was responsible for the other actor being blinded. She basically hacks pre computers which is going to a bookstore just doing some research. Major hacking scene, definitely. So she realizes things are really a muck here and she packs up her things and she goes see Dr Sapristein again, but then she realizes that he's on in on it. Too because of this thing herb. He's got the Tannis to Tannis anyone feminist icon, the receptionist. He's just like, you smell bad, just like my boss, Like it doesn't say that when you're walking. I was like, well, maybe a little unprofessional, but helpful to the plot. So she runs out and she goes back to Dr Hill and tells him everything, like she thinks the guy has promised the coven her baby in exchange for his success as an actor. And then it seems like Dr Hill is going to help, but instead he calls guy and Dr Sapristein and then they come and get her. She's hysterical, right, yeah. They take her back home and then she tries to get away, but it doesn't work. She goes into labor and then Sapristeine gives her sedative and she passes out. She wakes up, the baby has been born. She's like, where's my baby. They're like, the baby died, sorry, and she knows that they're lying, but you can hear a baby in the other room. I was like, do you guys not have a second location to go to? Not a full proof plan? And then guys are like, you have the pre part of the Crazies got so yeah. She hears the baby crying, and then she remembers that closet that the big piece of furniture was in front of. She's like, let me there, you go. She goes into it and she realizes that there is a door behind this, like I guess partition kind of thing. And she goes into this creepy apartment and the coven is there, including Guy and the cast of vets and a satanic bassinet. It's all black. That must have been fun for the art director Richard Silbert, by the way, incredible. And then there's a baby in the cradle. She looks into it and we see her horrified reaction and she's like, what have you done to its eyes? And then Roman is who is not dead, by the way, and who is not traveling, and he's like he has his father's eyes. Satan is the father, not Guy. Satan chose you because you're the cutest woman in New York. That's not everyone that people should say that on dinner day. Satan chose you. You're the most Jovan girl in Los Angeles, apparently the most clueless too. And then guys like the guy at the end is very I mean, I guess if we're going like a reverse Nativity deal. He liked. Joseph is pretty thrilled to be cooked by a higher power. Yeah, he's like, yeah, it's not my baby. He just didn't care nearly enough, not hardly at all. Yeah, just take a take a close guy. We can make more babies. Love to Beverly Hills. Have babies there, Oh yeah. And then they're chanting hell Satan and then Roman is like, hey, Rosemary, why don't you be a mother to this baby. At first she's like, oh no, but then she's like okay, and that is the end of the movie. Yes, don't, don't, don't don't. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss and we are back. I mean, where to begin. I don't know. There's there's so we've we've all three of this have established that we enjoy the movie and admire the crafty and we just just say one thing. The music Christoph Komada, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that totally wrong. The music, the score is incredible, and I guess going into the behind the scenes lore surrounding this movie, he died a pretty brutal death less than a year after this movie came out, the composer, there's a lot of like strange stuff. What's one of those one of those? Well, yeah, I mean so this is, you know, a highly regarded prestige horror, psychological thriller. Like in two thousand fourteen, it was selected for preservation in the National Film Registry by the Library of Congress. It's still shown in theaters. Like, trying to reboot it with ZOEI Saldana didn't work out. Also, should we just tackle the art versus artists right at the top and then we can talk about the characters, because I feel like if we don't talk about it now, it will just haunt the rest of the conversation. In terms of Roman Plansky, the director of this film and the writer of the film, Yes, he wrote and directed it, and it was adapted from a novel written by our eleven who will get to I don't. I don't know anything about him, so I'm interested to learn about that. So Roman Polanski, he had a troubled past. You know, he was a Holocaust survivor. His parents were taken in raids during the Holocaust. A year after this movie comes out the Manson family brittlely murders his wife, Sharon Tate and some of his friends. And yes, definitely went through some ship, but it is no excuse for what he did, which is he statutory raped a lot of underage girls and he admitted it at least convicted in eight I believe, of statutory rape. Yeah, seventy eight he was arrested and charged with drugging and raping a thirteen year old girl. Uh. And then a short time later he fled to Paris after learning the judge planned to imprison him other than just give him some other lesser punishment. But um so, he's been a fugitive for about forty years, several decades, and in that time he has one another Oscar. Is that correct? If he won for the pianisto um so, that's fun. Um. Also, since that time, several other women have come forward saying that he raped them while they were underage. So good lord. He's also been celebrated in the recent years in Europe as well. I mean, he doesn't stop getting awards. No, he doesn't stop working. I mean it seems like he's very infrequently stopped working at all. Um he Yeah, he did win an Academy Award in two thousand and two UM for the pianist. Like he has continued to work, he just can't come back to the United States. And it wasn't until last year that, like post me too, that he was finally room moved from the Academy. UM. But that's not even to say that that's a permanent thing. It's like, yeah, yeah, as as so many people who perpetrate stuff like this get is just a brief time out. I mean, that's the fact that the worst thing that has happened as a result of all of this is that he couldn't be in the Academy forty years after being convicted and confessing a crime like that is just absurd. La la la. Yeah. His punishment is basically that he still gets to keep working and living in Europe and he lives in Paris. It's it's just it's yeah, it's like one of the more upsetting examples in an industry that is, you know, littered with them. Can I also read a quote of his that I found, Oh sure, I wonder if it's the same way. Yeah, he is speaking to Clive James this in four he says, women these days where a virtual armor, tights, panties, blue jeans, belt as though they were afraid of constant aggression. There must be something psychological at the bottom of it. I've got another quote from him from when he's seventy nine. He said, the pill has changed greatly the women of our times. It masculinizes her, it chases away the romance from our lives. And then he says, um trying to level genders as quote idiotic. It's crazy that he made this movie if that is how he feels. Yeah, this is code of ethics, because I mean, I think there are a few different reads of this movie, but largely this is a story about a woman who's been emotionally, psychologically and sexually abused and who is trying to regain agency over her body and her pregnancy in her life. Right, she doesn't do it successfully, but also again having as I said, being the person in the road here was the ground up in sixties six she was, and it really was. I'm not pre feminist entirely. Obviously feminists lived long before that, but but before it became you know, before say Miss magazine was published, which was my aha moment. Oh yeah, I remember the day I read the first issue of Miss magazine, and I'm sitting in the steps outside my apartment I reading it, and I got so angry. I went into a fury, and I've never stopped the fury anyway. It was but sixty six it was still like, as I said, I saw the movie, and that woman looked like people I actually kind of knew, like she had no ambition, no career, no employment, no interest in any such thing. And by the way, as we pointed out, no, not like besties. I mean, she didn't even She had nothing except this craving to have a baby, which sets you up for her willingness to ex up this poor little devil baby. But it works for the story. But it's just you know, again, looking at it now versus looking at sixty Oh, that reminds me of my friend Heather. Now you look at it and go, I don't know anybody like that. This is the sane and you know, he takes the book away from her and he's he's just so dominating and she's yes, sir, yes, sir yes, or to her husband. There's a scene where he wakes her up and he's like, it's nine o'clock. He doesn't say, make me breakfast, but that's what's applies. Yeah, She's like go eat out and he's like like hell I will, so like, yeah, she is just like this very traditional like homemaker housewife type and women who want to be mothers, women who are homemakers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is the life they choose. The fact that she has given no other characteristics or interests or it's just hires. It's treated as a given and that's yeah. And she doesn't even have any hobbies. So in a way, she's kind of i mean really kind of one dimensional, right, you know, you'd think there would be some something. Everything we see her do is is very domestic. I mean she's preparing the nursery, she's like redecorating the house and stuff like that. And again those things, those activities are all fine to do. But the fact that we don't see her and it's frustrating because I think that, like the story at so many times indicates that she is very smart and very capable because she, you know, sees through this huge ruse and she like I'm listed out all the different times that she clocks things and notices things that other people don't and then follows up on it later and tries to get more information. It seems like with this character that the big hurdle for her is that she wants to figure out what's going on, but she wants to do it in a way that's polite and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. And so at the time, I was just like Rosemary. Now like where after she figures out right away it when she's given the chocolate moose by Many and she's like, this tastes wrong, like something is You're they're not poisoning me correctly, and you know, guy starts to gaslight her immediately. It's like it's always something like you gotta just eat it whatever, And she goes back the next morning after she is raped and knows that, but she goes back to Many and brings back the dishes and it's like, thank you, I really liked it. It It was really good. And it's like she's part of what really like broke my heart about her character is that she always knows that something is wrong, and she's always aware of her own pain but is allowing herself to be talked out of it because she doesn't want to hurt other people. Or because she's like doubting her own because because women are conditioned to be accommodating and polite and and all that. And I mean, we can't ignore the cultural and historical time that this comes out in this movie. That's that it's set in. I mean, it's set in sixty into sixty six, and you know, second wave feminism was kind of jeering up starting Yeah, yeah, as you said, Jessica, like, she's not unlike a lot of women of this time. So we me watching it now, I found myself very frustrated by her just constant accommodation of people, and even when she senses that people are doing wrong by her, she's still like, well, I don't want to offend any Constantly everybody is doing things wrong, at the minimum annoying her and at the maximum raping her. Yeah, but then we also see, I don't know, there are so many parts of this movie that even when I was frustrated with Rosemary, I felt like, in most cases, the story explains to you why this is her reaction, Because the times that she does say something, her situation gets worse almost right away. Where Like when she does assert herself and she's like, I'm throwing this party. Guess what, I have friends, they're coming over, Scary people are invited. Um and like you know, makes that happen. And then when she speaks up for herself right after the consequences, she's cut off from access to her friends and it's like, I don't know, they're like seeing her try to accomplish something and then be immediately set two steps backwards by like the oppositional forces, like I don't I worked for me story wise, and it made me really sad. Yeah. And then another example that is when she's saying that she's no longer going to see Dr. Sapristein anymore, the like this pain that she's been having for months now is not going away, like something is wrong, and she's saying, I'm not going to drink the herbal drink Mick flurry. It's like vanilla milkshake. I kind of like, I was like, damn drinking. And then the husband is so mean not getting a second opinion. I mean, it's so she will. We see her stand up for herself different times, and then she's shot down, and then in the next scene we see her drinking the drink again. So it kind of makes for reasons that I don't think the narrative quite needs in like changing her mind, and it might have to do with all of this emotional and psychological abuse that she is undergoing by everyone around her. I remember when I first learned about just the concept of gas lighting, and like first hearing that term and learning what it was, I remember thinking to myself, Oh, like what Rosemary's husband does to her in that movie, like that connection because I was like, oh, that is exactly what gaslighting is. That was like kind of my frame of reference for that. But like, like we already kind of touched on. There's so many times where he is just like textbook abuse of behavior in terms of you know, gaslighting her, Like no, that chocolate mouse doesn't have chalky undertaste, just eat it and like so much. But it's also you see that so much in modern movies too. I mean the movie doesn't look like a dated movie unfortunately, really, you know, you see I think it was the was it The Shape of Water with Octovia Spencer Just that just popped in my mind about her abuse of the relationships for example, you do see these all the time. Unfortunately, still the submissive woman on the abusive husband the chocolate the chocolate mouse scene while we're on it. Yeah, that that was a scene that felt like pretty true to the marital rape scene just blew my mind on a number of people. But the moose scene, it was like a little bit different of you can sort of see the like mechanics of what he's doing, but I also sort of understood why. It's like, I don't want to have this conflict with this person I have to be with no matter what, because that's how she viewed her life, and like, what is what are my options? What is it easier to do? I don't know. I mean, I've been in relationships like that where you're picking your battles kind of exactly where you're like, finally the fucking moose like and that's sort of what she ends up saying because he finds, I think, in the space of that scene three different ways to blame it on her, where he's like, nothing's good enough for you. Why are you being mean? She worked on that all day, You're being rude, and like, you know, like and she pushes back a couple of times. It's not like immediately she folds. She's like, it's gross, it tastes weird. I think the Ruth Gordon is weird fair um. But then eventually when he starts to raise his voice, she is like final fucking eat it, which is like stuff, I I know that I have done. It's I recognize that in my parents marriage. Like that scene hit for me especially because it felt normal in in a weird way. Well yeah, exactly. I mean in the movie, of course, he has an agenda behind this, which says he wants to provide the world with this devil baby and because it helps his career, he'll become a movie start tomorrow, and so he's invested in her reading the Damn Moose. But in real life, these things happen all the time, and the man has no other agenda except to keep his wife submissive. Of course, so it's just an act of random violence abuse. And so that's why it seems it's the scene seems normal in the movie. It's, as I say, it's a whole other story. But but nonetheless it's a sad reflection of all kinds of things that happen like that all the time. And it's like as a viewer, it's almost like easier and like more easy to understand that someone would do that to you because they're working for the devil exactly other than that is just what they think is okay to treat Somewhere in fact, you almost I mean, as a movie watcher, you go, oh, well, I see he's doing that because he wants so you know, it's not at least you say, I see he's got a motivation rather than just random misogyny. You know, well, I couldn't help but think that. Like in the scene where they first go to dinner at the cast of Vets Roman is like complimenting guys, I'm oh, you did all this great hand gesture and you're working this play was so and it's just like, oh, he got complimented one time, and now he's going to sell his baby to the devil. He literally goes and she goes into the kitchen with many for a minute, and literally by the time they come back two minutes later, this decision has been Yeah, okay, sure, bastard, you lazy bastard. My people will get to your people. We'll take care of this. I mean, I know, it's just like it also makes you kind of want like this is an indication that this guy had a serious character of law to say the lazy wouldn't she have picked up on us at some point in their marriage? Kept thinking that it takes her so long to figure and again, I mean, but their relationships seems to change pretty abruptly in the movie too, Like they're in the first couple of scenes, they seemed to be generally getting along. She's like, like, she even seems it's it almost seems like she's like, let's make love even yeah, Like she she's like, I want to funk. He's like okay, Like it's it started to seem like, oh, maybe this is a I did not know anything about this movie. It's like they're kind of a nice couple, right, well, seems that way at first. Then he turns in yeah, but see, like why why did it take this long for them for her to figure out? Especially with the doctor Sapperstein thing, it takes her so long to realize that he's on it because he's also doing like classic like abuse of things, isolating her from her friend, Like she's like, don't talk to your friends about their pregnancy, don't read books. He literally don't read books, don't talk to your friends. You're like no, yeah, like it you're a doctor. What are you saying, And she well that that's like a transition into like the whole like one of the big themes of this movie. And it's like, it's weirdly now looking into knowing what we know about how Roman Polanski used women, and then if you look into Ira Levin's work, where he was not the monster that Roman Polanski is, but his work sort of had a general theme that he He also wrote The Stepford Wives was his other major work of he was really good at writing villains that were normal men, and that was what makes the story scary, is that it's like the devil you know, basically, but you know, also makes a lot of women and his narratives pretty submissive and not I wouldn't say he is a feminist, but he wrote some interesting stories about women. So it's weird. I guess all that to say, I don't know how much of these themes are done intentionally and how like Ira Levin said about this book that it's about atheism and the people who see feminism in it are just seeing what they want to see. He's interesting. He's like, it's about how how people go too hard with Christianity and then they're like, but don't you think any director makes a movie without necessarily realizing what things people are going to see in it, Because I mean, I can't imagine that, you know, everybody has notions about a movie they've seen that the director knew knew they would, you know. I just I don't think that the way art works. I think you know that stuff inadvertently affects people. They find things that well, really that's what you saw, okay, And now that seems to be like some of the main takeaways that people have from this movie watching it now is like one of the bigger themes of just like ignoring and minimalizing um women's physical pain, which happens throughout this entire movie. I mean it feeds into the gas lighting thing as well. But there's that moment where me and Pharaoh is standing outside and New York and she's like, pain begun, I will have no more of the as like she is she like that was in a side Yeah, that between Dr Sabristeine and Guy, they're constantly like she is saying, I'm in pain, this hurts. Something's not right. And then people who obviously couldn't possibly understand what a pregnancy feels like are saying, no, it'll go away in a day or so, you know, ad nauseum, don't read books, don't talk to your friends. And that is like such a proven, I mean exaggerated version of like how women are treated and by doctors. There's been studies. I have a study here from a book called Doing Harm, The Truth about how bad medicine and lazy science leave women dismissed, misdiagnosed, and sick. Um. It's a researcher named Maya Douson Barry says that quote, the tendency to not believe women's reports of their symptoms is definitely connected to these larger, broader, could true stereotypes about women as emotional and irrational and hysterical in the colloquial sense of the word. Women are stereotyped as more ready to seek care. So basically like, women are more likely to point out their own pain and therefore it is more likely to be dismissed by makes perfect profession um, which I'm sure was even more so in the nine and the sixties. Yeah, I mean again, you know, having seen it back then, I don't remember having any thoughts about any of these things when I saw it I mean maybe a slight annoyance and how dominated she was because I was kind of a rebel at that time. But it was the sixties after all, right, But yeah, just totally different now perspective now because of all this stuff, you know, and the eight million studies that have been done since then, and all the advances of feminism and everything else and all the and all the the meat too. Yeah. I mean an example of that that we see in the movie is the scene where she goes to Dr Hill after or she's discovered that like Dr Sapristein is in on this coven. That's another heart that that is like a heartbreaking on par for me with the you weren't raped by the devil, you were marritally raped, okay scene and the gas lighting scene with the chocolate moose, because it's just like they're like shades of real life in that. Yeah, it felt very authentic. Yeah, it's and it's and it sucks. The whoever, I don't know, let me find the name of the actor who played Dr Hill, but I thought it was very well. Charles Groden, my man Grows. I thought he gave a great performance because you know, in that scene, me and Pharaoh is laying out all this research she's done. It does sound a little bit out there. I would be worried about her if if someone just came in cold and was like, I'm pregnant with the devil. Everything is sucked up. But you can tell she means it so much and it's something is wrong and she needs someone to leave her, which she tells him. She's like, no one is listening to me. And he says what any woman who desperately needs to be believed is. He says, Okay, let's do something about this. Like that's like and she's got them, and she's so relieved the relief it's like palpable can feel it, and and then he leaves and it sucks like this just so many versions of this happen all the time of like you want to keep someone calm and then you call their abusers to come and pick them up, like that happens constantly, and it's just so But there did you I maybe I was like reading too much into it, but I really liked the shot where Dr sabristein and Guy enter the room and Dr Hill is in the back of that shot and you can almost see that he knows he's doing the wrong thing, or he'd like, there's this look of dare I say doubt too that the name um, there's like a look he has a I don't know if Charles Grodin's got a weird resting face. But I was like, I felt, I was like, this motherfucker knows he did the wrong thing. But and this I think is against something that's like real life sometimes the way that men interact with each other. They would rather sell out a woman than seem weird to other men totally, because if Dr Hill is the one person who's like, I do believe that all this freaky devil ship is happening and aligns himself with her, I think that he is afraid of doing that and would rather sell her down the river and literally, you know, force her to birth the devil than be think go out of his comfort zone socially right. And for a split sec and I was like, oh, is the implication that he's also in on the coven thing? But I don't think that's it at all, and I think it much just I know, I think it's just that like he sees this woman, even as the medical doctor that he is, he sees a woman who appears to be hysterical and who he perceives to be like, oh, well, she's pregnant, so and like pregnant women be hormonal. That she is like out of her mind and needs to be put back in the care of the men who are actually abusing her, because men can be trusted and women can't be trusted with their feelings basically. So yeah, that was I mean, it was a very effective horror moment in the movie when when Sta Christine and Guy come back into the room. But it hurts my heart to be like, like, Dr Hill, I thought you were a good guy, like right, I mean, and it's like he oh, it's so devastating, to the point where it almost took me a second to get back into the action after that, because that is such a gut punch, and then she immediately has to like literally go on the run to get away and it doesn't work right, and it makes me so sad. Oh gosh, we got to take another quick break, so let's process her feelings a little bit and then we'll come right back and we're back. Can I just say, Also, Anthea Silbert, the wife of Richard Silbert, the designer. She did the clothes, and can we talk about her clothes for a minute. The little I mean they were all literally dresses like you would see on a three year old small child. While those are the lace collars and then the little jumpers. Nothing was fitted. Her body was completely you know, like those little lampshade dresses. But literally, think about it, there were children's clothes. It's just so even when she's pregnant, she looks like a little girl, a little girl. It's very strange. Yeah, I mean the art direction in the costuming this movie is also cool, and I mean the movie looks incredible. Yeah. I mean that's like an attempt to infantilize her and make her seem virginal, so almost like equating her to the virgin Mary. But also the little you know again, it just it just you can't help but have parallel. Yeah. Absolutely. The haircut that Rosemary gets makes her be the baldest woman in charge, except she's not really in charge of anything, including her own life. It's aspirational. I think spiritually it makes sense. She gets the haircut, She's like, I'm in charge now, and everyone's like, no, we hate it bad. And it affects her negatively. She wasn't ready for the haircut. That haircut should have aligned with her becoming more in charge of her life. I mean a different version. Yeah, It's just it's so it's so frustrating to watch every like, everything she tries in good faith that in a movie that we're kinder to its protagonist would result in something. The last thing you wanted to say about the just like the minimizing pain is of course, the only people she talks to who believe her are other women, yes, who are then immediately removed from her life. I think she tries to call one right before she is forced into going into labor, but they take her seriously immediately they believe her. They're like, well, let's let's get this fixed. And then they are also ostracizing, removed from her life, and then we never see them again, and they can. I just say, Also, that scene in the phone booth is incredible when she's she's trying desperately, she's trying to reach her friend A and the doctor B and she's in a phone booth and it's degrees and people are coming in and it's just like and the camera holds on. I lost track of how long it was. The camera held one position and it went on for like eight minutes. There's no cuts, no cuts, and she was and she was sweating, and and it was literally like her life in that phone booth. She's trapped in this small space, nobody's responding to her on the phone or otherwise. And and then at the very end of the scene, this man appears outside the phone with his back to her. So there's always it was like a living hill literally in her brain in that it was. It was an incredible scene. It's a very effective horror movie. Yeah, and the a Farrow like her performances like insanely good. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, Um, we got to talk about the rape scene. We do something that the rape scene. Um, so there's okay. So, I mean I think that maybe maybe they in to talk about that scene is to talk about the scene that comes immediately after, because the way it is stylized is I mean, it's it sucks that we see raping movie so frequently. I don't think that it's especially like worth discussing. Um there is. I mean, there's a bunch of nude Satanists there. She gets raped by satan. She does call out one at one point, this isn't a dream, this is really happening, right, And then we cut to the next morning. Yeah, I think the next day is I found that far more disturbing, even though I mean, obviously the previous scene is very disturbing, but it's disturbing in a way that's kind of unfamiliar because it's there's a room full of nude Satanists also in that scene, so much fantasy that you can kind of you and and the just the horror and uneas we feel during that scene is like, that's the intention of that scene. But then the next scene, Jamie, as you said, is disturbing for a different reason, is because so I have the dialogue exchange, Oh, I have it written, now, who do you want to be? I don't want to be Guy, but I don't want you to be Guy. Um, nobody wants I'll be guys. So that we So the next morning, Um, she wakes up next to Guy. She's kind of disoriented, she's remembering what's happened to her in real time, and she realizes that she has these like pretty severe scratches on your body. Yes, so Guy says, kind of gesturing to his fingernails, don't you know, I already filed them down. I didn't want to miss baby night. And the first and the Rosemary says while I was out, and then and then he's in the other room and he says, and it was kind of fun in a necrophile sort of way, and just like any any sympathy. And in the previous scene, um where you see Rosemary being in and out and in and out, and then it cuts to the devil raping her, he's not acting that way. He's saying, we'll have sex another day, It's okay to go to sleep, and and so that, I mean, I didn't know what happened immediately after, and I was like, oh, that's something, you know. But then the next morning it's a total one eight. He was like, yeah, yeah, of course I merritily raped you. It's still legal in this in most states when this movie comes out. And then Rosemary says, I dreamed someone was raping me. I don't know someone inhuman. Then he says thanks a lot, like he's already over it, and he's and she's calling him. She says nothing, and then he tries to touch her. She pulls away and he's like I didn't want to miss the night, and she says, we could have done it this morning or tonight. Last night wasn't the only split second, and then he wraps the scene up by saying, I was a little bit loaded myself, you know. So he he admits that he merritally raped his wife, even though he said in the previous scene, go to bed, it's fine. And then where the story gets really complicated is that he didn't maritally rape his wife. He brought her to the devil so that she could get raped by the devil. But the fact that all the fantasy should aside the fact that this scene plays out the way it does and it's realistic, it's just insane to watch. Where he's like, yeah, of course I did that. It was fun. Then she also acts like it's kind of no big deal. She's she's visibly upset by it, but she just kind of has to accept it because, yeah, as you said, like marital rape wasn't even considered rape. It was like, oh, you're married to a man. He can have sex with you whenever he wants, including while you were sleeping and not able to give consent. Yeah, she that seemed to go right by or Actually I thought that was kind of alarming, to say the least, and to see her like she pulls away a little bit and but still is Oh, it's just a very but that was very much with the culture too, as you say, like, man, you know, whenever you want, you just take it. You know, would anybody have thought that the devil raping this childlike virginal young woman would sort of have this creepy mirror effect as to you know, Rouman Polanski's activity. I mean, it just has a whole other, whole other level of creepy. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, God this And I'm like I understand after watching it, I'm like, I understand why I avoided it for so Yeah. And then I mean, I'm not a mother, so I can't speak to mothering instincts. But I'm just curious if there's anyone out there whose mothering instincts are so strong that when you learn that your baby is the devil, do you still like, yep, I want to be the mother to this devil baby? Is that? Well? I can a thing. I have been a mother. I mean, I am a mother ahead still am did you quit? I got fired? My daughters fired me. They turned to wedding um, and I have to say it's it is an overpowering Okay, it really is. Neither my daughters are a devil, although sometimes I wonder. But so I can't really speak to that exactly. I mean, it's not a real thing, but you know, and I can a sort of bought it because I know what that's that feeling is like when your baby first shows up. It's the most incredible thing, unless you're a person who doesn't like babies. But and also because we've been set up through the movie where she has no other interests or no other nothing else she's passionate about except that, so she's all her juice is going towards being maternal, so you can sort of see, well, he's mine, and maybe I better. She's rocking the cradle too hard, she says to the woman, don't rock that cradle so hard any consort of I don't know. I thought it was an interesting ending where it doesn't it would be so it would be super lame if the movie outright said and now she's going to be a mother to the devil baby. But the fact that she it like does line up with her character that she would consider it and then also I don't know. I was like in a hotel room in Indianapolis, just like staring at the ceiling, like what would I have done? But if you think about like no one asks to be born, right and this baby is in a predicament, it seems like, you know, this baby could really use some good influence. I mean, there is that great maternal rush right when I'm born. And she said, so, she's good doing this towards her infant. The thing that across my mind was like, but what happens when he's a teenager? Yeah, and he's gonna and he starts like starting wars and whatever all that ship the Devil does. Then what is she going to think Jee's adoption might have been a better option. This could go very We need to talk about Kevin later exactly. I guess my mind went to one of our very first discussions on our on our very first episode was the kill Bill discussion, where like she learns that she's pregnant, and I think the implication is just that every woman has such a strong mothering instinct that no matter what her circumstances are in life, she's gonna like drop up everything to be a mother that was more darring to me in that movie because we knew that she had she had her The whole movie was about her other interests with Rosemary. I mean, I think it's a flaw. I don't even know if it's a flaw, but it's we don't know anything about her other than she is a sweet little lady from like Ohio. So it's like implied that she is naive. She doesn't have a large support network in New York, and she wants to have a baby, and that's sort of all we know. That really does make your skin call a little bit, doesn't know when somebody says everybody is such a strong mothering it because they don't. Actually I don't have one whatsoever. I mean, like you might have a baby popped out. But it's something I sometimes I think people don't know where they do or they don't. But they said definitely a lot of people don't write. And that's always been a thing that's been pinned on women that it's like a falsehood, definitely, and that's never asked of just like no one has ever what about the about like strong Let's make that movie also with Sharon Stone. Um, is there anything else that anyone wants to talk about before we finish. So the villains of this movie are we I mean, we have male and female villains basically all the all the Satanists are. And it's also worth saying culturally that this is like base level satanic panic, which will only increase going into the seventies and eighties and nineties even And a lot of that has to do with what happens to round Plansky's wife the next year, because the man's and family is so steeped in that. Yeah, it's just a whole fucking like this. This movie weirdly foreshadows. And also there were a lot of I forget what, there was like a list of in the late sixties. It was like The Omen came out. There was a lot of like evil baby movies. The Bad Seed came out in the fifties, which it was a movie that's to scared the ship out of me. So it's like taking place with that. But many, for all of her satanic shortcomings, is a fun character, really fun to watch. Every time she's on screen, You're like, fuck, it's Ruth Gordon. She's got charisma, she's got look at that head scarf, look at that blouse like she's got blue eyeshadow on. She's really going for it. And I think that that just is like something that we come across a lot, where Mini's character has nine thousand times of personality that Rosemary does, which is I don't know. It's almost like in high school musical. If you listen to our matron of them in high school Musical, it's like how Gabriella is the main character, but she's kind of boring. And then Sharpey, the female villain, has all this personality and we're supposed to hate her, and it's like, but she's more fun to watch. It's just another thing. And then when you get to fucking Louie Louie laur Laura Linney, it wasn't the character there, Laura Louise, Laura Louise. She's in one scene and she's just she's She's in a bunch of scenes. I want to spin off with her. I want to spin off with her, and she's just yelling. She's also got a wild blast. I'm like Mini and Laura Louise. Okay, a sitcom with two older female satanists who are best friends. I love that it's someone by it it's like Laverne and Shirley, but like they're saying, Well, that's another thing I wanted to say about this movie, which is that a lot of movies and a lot of media about which is have a very specific way of depicting which is, and it's usually that they are evil and bad and praying upon innocence. But these days, anyone who identifies as a which is just you know, charging their crystals and not doing harm to anybody. Same thing with Satanism. The way Satanism is depicted in this movie and many movies is like, hey, let's get together and help someone rape a woman and steal her baby and stuff like that. And obviously anyone who's doing anything like that is horrible. But modern Satanism is nothing like that. I don't know if if you or our listeners are familiar with like modern Satanism. But the members of the Satanic Temple are cool. They are very like progressive. They're very like pro reproductive rights, they're very pro science, they're very pro like separation of church and state. Their agenda is is very progressive as far as I can tell, I guess we should, yeah, we should make clear that when we are goofing on Satanism in this movie. It's the version of Satanism that is projected in this and throughout the Satanic panic. Yes, yes, yes, yes, shout out to all our Sataness and I mean, and it's like it's so fit interesting because it's like it's always the not always, but in some cases, like the subcultures that just have a negative stigma attached to it because of media like this, that end up being like very lovely progressive people. I would also lump in Juggalos to that. Juggalos are if you look at their platform. We gotta get some Jugglers in office. They're so progressive, they're so they preach love, they march on Washington, They're out there doing the work, they are gathering. They're also really good hack shout all our Juggalo listeners. Yeah. The main thing here is that the way that like Witchcraft and Satanism is portrayed in this movie and different other movies around this era is not reflective of like modern Witchcraft and modern uh Satanism and stuff like that. So worth noting. Oh we did get around to the artist art thing. Oh yeah, we never concluded that maybe just too long a discussion there. I mean, this, this is one of the harder cases I've ever en. I don't know, I doesn't get harder than this. Yeah, well, how does everyone feel? I mean, I'm fine with not seeing this movie again, or really any movies that we know have been made by the autours who are criminals. There's so much other stuff out there that isn't made by sex criminals that I am happy to watch instead. But it is tricky because this is a well crafted movie, and I like, I hate to admit this, but I like another of Polanski's movies. It's called The Ninth Gate. It is not a good movie, but I still like it. But like, I'm like, I can't watch this anymore. Yeah, it's weird. It's it feels like it's it's such an individual decision, and it's like the sort of thing where I think when the me Too movement was first happening, I was very I think, along with like a lot of people are very quick to just be like nope, done by see garbage bad. And I still feel that way fundamentally, But it's like, now that we are having these conversations more, it's like, Okay, it's not as black and white as that, especially when it's like, you know, you can't be upset with a friend of yours if you have a friend who loves Rosemary's Baby and is not quite ready to part with it, Like that's that's a thing that that means, that's like what when are I mean, there's millions of people out there who aren't going to want to part with Michael Jackson's music, you know, Like so I still don't know. I think what my hope is is that we come to a point in just the entertainment that's available to us that so much good stuff has been made by talented people who are not predators and sex criminals, that we can just just enjoy that and kind of forget about the stuff is made by the bad people. But also, but there was also a lot, for example, to look at this movie now, it gives us, just on this discussion, it gives us an interesting perspective on not just you know, the movie itself and how it's craft and how women in it look different than they would have when it came out, but also on the issue we're talking about about on Roman Polanski and his behavior, and it makes you go, you know, I mean, it can be productive in a way if you can use it to better better understand your own feelings about about the whole thing, about all kinds of things. Yeah. I mean it's like I wish all Sex Predators works were so like, absolutely unquestionably bad art. Yeah, that it would be a much easier discussion, but it is. I mean, it's like a lot of people are processing how they feel. Um, I think, I mean, the only thing I think that we can all agree on is the fact that Roman Polansky got convicted of this crime and continued to work for forty years is absolutely unexactly that's horrible. That's horrible. I mean, while other people are like, I think, you know, two people have said he did this or he did that and their lives are completely over, which is yeah, like you just don't get it. Just doesn't make sense that he is thriving in Paris and a lovely fuck him. It's definitely like an individual journey. Listeners, we encourage you to continue to explore your feelings about stuff like this, talk to your friends about it. It feels, I don't know, it's uncomfortable to talk about, but it's even having talks like this is feels helpful. To process. I had one more I don't know this movie because this was the fifty at anniversary of this movie last year. Um, there was a lot of media around it. And there's a female horror director, UM named Karen Kusama my favorite movie she's directed as Jennifer's Body Love. But she's she's, you know, one of the only prominent female horror directors. And so she was asked about this movie and UM she I'll just read what she said. She said, what one thing to add here is that Roman Polanski has made one of the greatest feminist parables of cinema. And yet we have to struggle with Polanski the man and the things he did, the crimes he committed. But that, to me is the enduring possibility of art, that it can stand apart from its maker. And I believe we have to judge Rosemary's Baby on its own merit. I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but the fact that that comes from a very progressive female horror director I thought was interesting, so worth mentioning. Well, it's just about one fift so we got to wrap up. I don't go see Dr Sapristin. Oh No, before you know, we can fanis anyone does this movie pass the Bechdel test? It does? Um? Can I just say all they did whenever more than one woman in the scene, Let's talk about recipes and saying getting a second opinion, That's all I'm saying. Yeah, there wasn't really any substance exchange, not really, no, no, but that's pretty par for the course. For all the conversations that we see. You got to put in my clothing stuff in a fabric, laundry, babies recipes, yeah, yeah, And in almost every scene there was an additional conversation about what does your husband do so yes, or your husband is very hot. That was one thing where like Rosemary repeated her husband's resume to like four or five. I'm like, I don't know, loser and shot to kill an apatross. That's not what she was like, he's in this, in this and yeah, things aren't going great right now, but they will be going good soon. And I was like, oh god, that seems exhausting. Um, just I'm like, I don't walk around just being like my boyfriend is not sure about his life direction Like that sounds exhausting. Well, there are plenty of exchanges between Rosemary and Mini Rosemary and Terry Laura Louise that the brassy queen of the Devil. Um it passes the Devil's Nanny. The Devil's aren't, but she in most scenes with women it passes at least once, but the kind of exchanges are very domestic. Also, question, does the movie pass the back to test if Mia Pharaoh talks to herself because I won't feel pain ever again? Pain begone? Feminist test heard it here first. Um, so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. It's zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Um, I just don't know. I think I'm going to give it like just right down the middle, like a two point five because or is like, on one hand, this is like a movie whose journey we see is a woman who's dealing with all this abuse and who is trying to you know, she has agency and she's trying to reclaim her agency even further. But I think this story would be a lot more powerful and authentic and probably maybe would have ended differently, or or the story would have been unfolded a little differently if it had been you know, written and directed by women, especially a mother who knows what a pregnancy is like, and not a man who is a known rapist. I think I might be wrong about this nipple writing, but I don't really know. I still just don't know how to really process this movie. So I'm just gonna do the two point five and, which is still an f when you think about it. But but yeah, I wish there was just a slightly different version of this movie in which she's maybe more triumphant at the end, or we know more about her character. I don't feel empowered by this movie. I see the read that it is. It could be a feminist text, but looking at it through the lens of, you know, our culture in two thousand nineteen, like I'm I don't really see that so much. I wish the way this story had played out was that she catches on to all this Devil Covens stuff, sooner she does her research, she figures everything out, she gets away, she has an abortion, and then she just lives the rest of her life away from all the scary people. So that would be lovely. So at two point five and, I'll give two of my nipples to Mia Pharaoh, whose husband at the time, Frank Sinatra, left her during the shoot of this movie because he's like, you're still working. Well, then that's not what I wanted and I'm going to divorce you. Well, he wanted her to be in a movie with him, and then she bailed on the movie. And then the movies came out the same day and Rosemary's Baby did like five times the amount of business. So that's the triumphant. That's a marriage killer. Yeah. Anyway, so um too to Mia Pharaoh, and I'll give my half nipple to the black cat that you see at the very end for a split second in the coven um and cats also have eight nipples as cat facts with Caitlin anyway too and half nipple as the end. Jessica, you're you're rating, Oh gosh, I'm I'm torn about my nipples. Sounds very uncomfortable because I know Rick does, doesn't it? Because again, I mean when you said, like the horror director considers this a feminist movie, in a way, you have to look at Rosemary. You could look at Rosemary as getting exactly what she wants ultimately, which is a baby, and um, this is the Devil's baby. But you're not going to take this baby away from Hofs but yeah, herby she got what she wanted in a way. It's just I'm so uncomfortable about how she's treated. I mean it's because you know, I'm from that generation. Um my parents, you know, the greatest generation grew up and you know, we're I mean we're married and had children the fifties, and I watched the dynamics between them and they were you know, there's the echoes of that just made me so uncomfortable. On the other hand, I do think the movie is beautifully crafted. It's incredibly written, it's so well acted. It looks gorgeous, and she's terrific, you know. So there's that, So there's great artistry. There's just so much to make you uncomfortable. And I'm a little ambivalent about the feminist thing too, Like, really, I don't know if that's really what I would call a feminist outcome. So I don't know what is that? What would that translate in terms of nipples? Like what do you think two and a hat. Maybe I'm with you, Maybe it's doing it. I mean, I give a big nipple to to the scene on the phone booth was just create like Hitchcock kind of Jamie. What about you. Um, I'm going to go with two and a half as well, Uh say, complicated choice. I I don't think it's weird. I don't think we come across stories like this very often. Where I disagree with Karen Casama. I don't think that this is like a feminist film, but I do think it's an effectively told story about a woman. Uh. That made me feel a lot. Yeah, it's it's an effectively told story about a woman where for all of the failings of Rosemary's character writing wise, where we don't know anything really about her family, we don't really know anything about if she has interested, she go to school, how did she guide me? Like? There there's so many things we don't know about her that we do know about guy. But for the things we do know about her, she does seem pretty smart, getting through like a mire of gas lighting from everyone around you and still being able to do research. She's constantly seeking out allies who can help her out unfortunately most of the world. And I think the scene that upset me most is the scene with Dr Hill at the end. Yeah, Like, I think you see that she does everything she possibly can to gain agency over herself, her life, and her body. The reason I don't think it's the feminist film is because she's not really successful in doing that. So I don't know. The way this movie rolls out is just like it's I'm still I feel like I'm still processing it. It's so I've never seen a movie be this cruel to its protagonists but also make it clear to you that the protagonist has done everything she could poss a bleed do to try to save herself and it does not work. It's just like it's usually if you see a movie that's cruel to its female protagonists, it's like the protagonist is so severely underdeveloped that they seem stupid and like completely unable to help themselves. But it's like Rosemary is intelligent, she's observant, she's doing everything she possibly can, and the movie does not give her an inch. It's just wild, which I mean, I think. I think it just has a lot to do with the era and the cultural context when this movie came out and takes place and stuff, and for for all of its problematic history that goes along and all the baggers that comes with this movie, it does feel worth mentioning that it is like movies like this that allow It's like I famously said before we started recording Rosemary's Baby walked so that Baba Duke could run. And there's a lot of less troubling, more endings. You were just talking about movies made in the past couple of years alone with Boba Duke. And then you've also got hereditary um that explore to varying degrees of success, but like explore a woman's psyche and have that be a part of where the horror comes from. So this movie, while very flauded, think it was at least it's influence all good stuff to happen. Yeah, but it seems like just like very surface level read it seems like in spite of her trying to and like intelligently trying to save her own life at every turn, it ended up the way that they want it, and that is I didn't feel uplifted or she does not come out the victor in this story. And and it's like that's a difficult thing to watch that I don't think. We see a lot that is true to life in a lot of ways. Um, not necessarily what I want to see reflected in media, but you know, like someone who does everything and the oppositional forces are too much and it just doesn't happen. Um, this movie fucked me up. I'll just go two and a half just because I love my friends and I want to be like them. Um, two and a half I'll give I'm going to give one to what's her name again, Louie Louis. I don't give what to Laura Louise because I was like, what is going on with you over here? Which, by the way, Roman cast Avent is like, oh she and many are too old to take care of babies like those those broads will fuck them up, like you're just like just but yeah, but like I know, but guy is to just Satanists in general shouldn't be raising children. I think we can agree. Um yeah, I'll give one to Louis Louis, one to Terry r I p wish I knew you better, and then I'll give a happy to Ruth Gordon because my god, what a fucking performance and she was turning a look in every fucking scene. Yeah, Jessica, thank you so much for being here. This has been such a delight. Thank you so much for having me. This is so far. Yes, Um, is there anything you would like to plug talk about your podcast. I want to just once again plug my new podcast. It's called Winnetta. That's spelled w I n n E t k A, and um, it's about my childhood growing up there, which of course took place during partly during the era that this movie covers and has all the all the ups and downs represented in that movie, um, except for the double part. Anyway, you can find it wherever you find your podcast and it's a memoir and then go on Instagram to Jessica Harperama or go to Winna Pa podcast on Instagram or Twitter. I'm on Facebook to Jessica Harper. Awesome, I mean great, Yes, follow her in all the places and listen to Thanks guys, thank you so much for coming so you have to see or just a quick note, Jessica did have to leave a little bit before we were done recording the episodes. If there are sections of the episode it was like, are you just talking over a legend. No, she just simply was not here for those night here and we love her so much. Yeah, she was amazing. Yeah. So if there are large chunks where Jessica is not talking, we recorded those after she had to leave, and then edit them into the episode. So with that, let's plug our little plug doubles. You can follow us online on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at Bechtel cast Um. You can sign up for our Patreon ak Matreon Yeah to bonus episodes among five bucks a month, and then you get the backlog so you really get like thirty episodes um. And then check out our Tea Public store, get some merch at t public dot com, slash the macdeal cast, and as always, we love you so much, thanks for listening. Yeah by