E358- You CAN’T Always Stop Leash Reactivity… Here’s What Actually Works

[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a great podcast with a young conicor so that's doing big guardian dog type stuff, and so what do we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Should we do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it possible to do so if you have a reactive dog?
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of dive into the difference between a pet dog and a working dog and the controversy that that goes with that apparently that I had recently found out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's pretty interesting but great podcast for people who are dealing with very innate primal instinctual stuff and it doesn't matter if you have a lab that wants to keep chasing birds or a gun dog that wants to keep chasing birds.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like where does where is the line in the sand of what you can do and what's realistic and what's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully you guys enjoy this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one, Dr. Dr. Nick podcast in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mayi.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to you next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mayi.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, so we have a 10 and a half month old Kani Korso.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got him as a puppy from a very responsible breeder at about four months of age.
[SPEAKER_02]: Group on a farm.
[SPEAKER_02]: We live in the city of Pittsburgh.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been very dedicated about good training.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, started him off with
[SPEAKER_02]: puppy kingdom garden and all that good stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: To be clear, a lot of things are going right.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a joy to be around.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's super affectionate.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's super smart, learns obedience very, very well.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we even essentially as soon as we got him, reactivity around other dogs was a huge thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: To the point that like with the puppy kingdom garden, you know, we could not do any of the group interaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like we walk into the room and like tunnel vision about the other dogs and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was always on leash and like once class started and all the dogs were like sat by your side.
[SPEAKER_02]: He could focus and he was almost like the class pet in terms of like how good he was with like obedience and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, on walks loosely swapping, lots of looking and checking in, like lots of stuff we've had crazy construction around us.
[SPEAKER_02]: with street and like he deals with the noises and the construction walk workers like hollering at him like thinking he's so cute very very well but the reactivity with other dogs like other leash dogs is very tough to control um so sometimes it's like a little tiny
[SPEAKER_02]: other times it's just another dog that starts it sometimes it's not another dog that a neutral dog is just mining its own business and it just sets them off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we have good good results with like a redirect and like touch touch touch, sit, spin and like shake it off and
[SPEAKER_02]: um we we started off like the the kindergarten that we worked with uh because it was part of the their shelter required harness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay did you get it um did i i'm i may have missed that but did you get it met a shelter?
[SPEAKER_02]: No no no we got them from a breeder.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay um she's very responsible she's very well known um she she takes bloodlines of temperament and and all that very very seriously.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and we've been in touch with her, but she's.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kindergarten is worried.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, I was saying the kindergarten was through a shelter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So God, because they're ethical, they're ethics standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: They only allow a harness in the kindergarten environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and it was the breeders opinion that the harness
[SPEAKER_02]: that it was holding him back and ramping him up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she thought that we should change to a prom color.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't really our preference.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have experience with prom colors, but we did start using it in for a time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It did control things from like six to eight months of age in particular.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be clear, we do not use the prone collar like in a harsh correction every little thing that you didn't listen or do wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really to control him physically when he tries to lunge when he sees another dog because if I didn't have that, he's 145 pounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just be, you know, my face would be peeled off and dragged on the cement.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: It kind of that's where we are.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, I just want to stress like a lot of things are great.
[SPEAKER_02]: His manners, you know, in a calm, walking environment are just almost pristine, particularly for a 10 month old.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a joy to walk him, but nothing's going wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we have to be on alert all the time, you know, head on a swivel around what's around us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to some degree, I understand what this breath like.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just always how it's going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's tough and, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to set him up for a happy life and an enriched life and not just stuck in our backyard.
[SPEAKER_02]: We do live in the city and there's a lot of stimulus around him.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more of like a suburban part of the city, but it's just tough.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are working with the trainer.
[SPEAKER_02]: We work there for a long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a lovely person.
[SPEAKER_02]: She believes in she does positive reinforcement, but I just
[SPEAKER_02]: Mass difts and particularly corsows are not really her playbook.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not a particularly common breed in this area.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she has them in experience with Mass difts anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw that you have a bore goal and I think that's really what maybe just want to reach out.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were kind of I'm kind of hungry for someone with Mass difts.
[SPEAKER_02]: um, experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I do feel like some of their training is different.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, their attitudes are different and how you work with them is different than like your average lab or door.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of the long and assured of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, understood right now, you are using positive reinforcement to try to stop the reactivity
[SPEAKER_02]: to some degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we first started with the prong, our trainer said, you know, I know it's not gonna look great and I don't think you should do this for everything, but he may need a sharp correction when he starts lunging.
[SPEAKER_02]: You pull back, you snap at him briefly in a controlled way and say, knock it off.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in charge, you need to stop this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we tried that for a couple of weeks and it seemed to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: but then it just returned.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So did you stop using the equipment and then it returned or did it?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we have never stopped using the front color.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's dive into the reactions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So explain to me right now the the most the biggest reactions that you're getting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The biggest reactions that we're getting is when we're walking down the street and there's a dog in close proximity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking like, you know, if it's like 20 feet away, he's interested, but he's not going crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can send videos if you want, but like 10, 15 feet away, particularly if the dog is eyeballing him or is reacting first, he is going to react.
[SPEAKER_02]: barking and lunging towards that dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we have to physically hold him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very rarely is it a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he feels surprised by the person coming towards us or that person is like eyeballing us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: He'll have a similar reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the average person, you know, we we just walked up the street.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a huge construction crew.
[SPEAKER_02]: five feet from him and he was just looking at me and looking forward and looking at me and looking forward, model behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and when you're saying that, do you feel like he wasn't reactive towards the construction worker?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what you're saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's engaged.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was not reactive.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no lunging, no barking.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was just calm, relaxed body.
[SPEAKER_02]: move it along.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're using your prong collar, how are you applying it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is your, once you start going out and let's say he did queue up on somebody or he started to being, he started to react towards something or look like he's about to react.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not put pressure on the prong until he does something to warrant the pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's a we tell him to leave it and relax and look at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he lunges, I have a traffic handle at the base of the leash that I'm holding onto so we can't get far and, you know, just okay my shoulder.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if he lunges, he gets he essentially is correcting himself.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's getting a pop because he's pulling away and trying to lunge.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then if he keeps
[SPEAKER_02]: or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we try to redirect and you know, let's circle, let's step away, touch touch my hand touch my hand look at this treat kind of thing to kind of settle him down and more often than not that works, but it's not a pleasant.
[SPEAKER_02]: process, it's physically exhausting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's tough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, totally get you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have similar issues with obviously my client stocks, but my own dogs and a lot of it is just it's frustration.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would agree that putting a harness on a dog that is frustrated or yeah, frustrated, it's just a or reactive, but it's stemming from frustration
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like he's a sweet dog, you feel like he's just getting frustrated and reactive on a leash and then when he gets to the person or gets to the dog, do you feel like he would just... You have, it has never come to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've never allowed him to get to that dog because when he's barking like that, I mean, he could do serious harm to that dog or that person and we're just so the mindset that, like, he doesn't need to meet people unless we want those people to meet him.
[SPEAKER_02]: after he settled in his crate and come and can do a polite greeting, which he does.
[SPEAKER_02]: He meets strangers that we want him to meet.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's fine with friends of ours and things like that, but we're explicit with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when you come over, you don't touch his face and cuddle him right out the gates.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to earn that and show that you're part of the pack and that you're calm.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you may follow that procedure, he's perfectly fine with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, it's just classic Khanic Horsos guardian type breed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are, you know, and I talked about this, yeah, my Instagram most.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're, I say that they're not good pets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is, is they're, they're, they're, and I say that about my boar bull, and Khanic Horsos are similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between like a working dog and a pet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a pet is really just living for other people to give attention to.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're living for affection and hang out on the couch all day and they just don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to, they basically can, can just be inserted into your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically the only thing you have to do is party train everything else is optional.
[SPEAKER_00]: But with a kind of course so or a boreball or...
[SPEAKER_00]: Any type of working dog, if you will, doesn't matter if it's a border colleague, a massive malign law, they are not good pets because they're a lot more managed, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't just say, yeah, come into the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just say, yeah, go pet my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I mean by, you know, the difference between a pet and a working dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they're not good pets, meaning we don't want to just get a dog and you know, or the whole neighborhood can come over and everything's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, they're on guard.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're suspicious and lately,
[SPEAKER_00]: They're protective, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that the prom colors good, I like that, especially for such a large dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a couple of things as you move forward with the reactivity on the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the first thing that comes to mind is my dismantlement program that I talk about a lot in my reactivity course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the dismantlement is essentially, there's kind of, there's a fork in the road that these types of dogs will go down with you as a handler and as an owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this, and again, there's this innate, hey, there's a dog, there's a person I'm suspicious.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not gonna be able to likely get that out of the dog and just say, hey, don't, don't be a corso, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, for me personally, I have a couple different ways that I manage this with my personal dog and with my client's dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's coming from a place of suspicion,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one side of desensitizing the dog potentially, which, in my opinion, is less likely to happen, meaning, for example, go out to a busier place, have your dog be passed by 100 people within a half an hour, pay your dog with their lunch, their breakfast, their dinner.
[SPEAKER_00]: make it a good experience and then leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do that enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog sees enough people experiences and stuff experiences to be like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a suspicious anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dogs, dogs like him.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's his name?
[SPEAKER_00]: Luke.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dogs like Luca likely aren't gonna just go, oh, you know what, I'm gonna let my guard down.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's possible, it's just not likely, but I always like to mention that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That it's still good to do in conjunction just so your dog can see that many pictures.
[SPEAKER_00]: For an example, if you go out for a walk and you see one to three people, there's a higher chance that the dog is going to be
[SPEAKER_00]: suspicious or reactive because they're seeing less people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're seeing less pictures.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing the exercise less.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go out again to a downtown area and you kind of just pull off to the side where you can safely handle your dog without any type of reactions or people coming up to pet him.
[SPEAKER_00]: and your dog sees that picture over and over and over again and you pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is possible for the dog not to make a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the caveat though, is even if you did that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I brought my mast about there and do that, he would probably do that, but the problem with these types of guardian dogs is the everything changes environmentally.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you get into your home or your neighborhood,
[SPEAKER_00]: it's not the same thing to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They actually do care less and I've already done that experiment with my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I bring him to my facility and he's around a bunch of other dogs and a bunch of people, he really doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he just when he walks around is Luca intact or is he fixed?
[SPEAKER_02]: He is intact.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Be the free or contract requires.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep and I yeah it's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: So but my point is with that is you have a lot more territorial things going on right when when dogs are kept intact they have that testosterone they're these teenagers kind of running around and it's very predatory it's very competitive you know in his head I'm air quoting it's competitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so when he's when he's walking around and he's
[SPEAKER_00]: when you're in your own environment and your own neighborhood, and this is something I've dealt with with Burley is when they see another dog in an area that they have basically marked for in my case two years in your case almost a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's different.
[SPEAKER_00]: So even if you did go outside of your environment, so I just want to.
[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of argue with myself there of making a point of you could desensitize, but the reality is is with a guardian type breed, it's it's not really applicable.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't really care and it'd be it'd be very similar to like a fearful dog the desensitization process would be much better because they're actually just afraid of other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Lucas probably just be in more protective because he's in his territory with his owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just throwing it out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But worth a shot, just go out, desensitize, pay the dog, have a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so, and then there's the deactivation process or the dismantlement process of reactivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea is, is basically having a bunch of different exercises that you're going to do once you see him
[SPEAKER_00]: and unfortunately a lot of times with dogs like this it's predicated off of the other person and again my dog is very very similar to your point why you called me or I called you is same thing if I'm walking and he sees a person he yeah whatever but then if he sees a person with the hood up and ear muffs on and whatever he's like yep I need to go check this person's ID
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can't really control, unfortunately, same thing with, again, an intact male.
[SPEAKER_00]: He may see a fix to neutered dog that was neutered at eight weeks old, and they never had testosterone running through him, and he completely ignores him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then he runs across to an eight-month-old intact golden retriever, and it's game on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's completely different reactivity, it's a completely different game for the dog, and that's, again, it's something that you can't control.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, for me, and in these bigger dogs, what I have come to the conclusion with is, especially with these guardian breeds, is do your dismantlement.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you see them perk up, you have to have exercises in order for you to be successful, which means we have to have a good leave it, we have to have a good heal, we need some inside turns, even a down or a sit stay depending on how extreme it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're out for a walk with him and you tell him leave it, or basically he quit the crap, have you worked on something like that before and how realistic is it for him to listen?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say all of those skills he has.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just about as good as you could have a 10 month old.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a deletable barf doggy kibble barf 10 feet down the road from us that he was desperate for and I told him leave it and he walked away from it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: He he will he will sit on commands.
[SPEAKER_02]: almost all the time, even on walks, mid walk, he will heal, mid walk.
[SPEAKER_02]: He rarely lunges, unless it's that tunnel vision, I see it dog, like it is loose leash, 98% of a 25-minute walk, like a joy to walk.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we don't make him do four on the floor down on a walk too often.
[SPEAKER_02]: He'll do it sometimes, like as to give himself a break, you know, if you
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a nice path to grass and he sees a stick.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants the chew on to decompress and we'll encourage it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But all of those basic obedience commands that you just listed, like, and some more advanced ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: And some more advanced ones, like he is excellent at.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's this tunnel vision of like, this is a threat.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I see, I don't, I'm not a behaviorist, so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are times where I see like, oh, maybe this is like what the adult Luke is going to be, where he just sits and observes neutral, but he's like, there's there's people I can see from 30 feet away at the bottom of the street, I'm just looking, making sure everything's cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's doing anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he'll look and then he'll look and also check in.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to try to that's a good behavior in my book, but it's just like, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a woman who's not paying attention and she's on her cell phone and the on speaker phone and she's eyeballing the dog from 10 feet away.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's not thinking about she just sees a cute dog and he's like, what the fuck are you looking?
[SPEAKER_02]: Excuse my language, but he's just like, what are you looking at and he gets angry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, like this dog, I've had dogs my whole life, but the easy dogs, you know, if you can call them that.
[SPEAKER_02]: This dog has welcomed me up to just how dumb people are about
[SPEAKER_02]: approaching a dog looking at a dog that our neighbors with their doodles across the street that are barking and yapping at him and they just stand there and like or walk towards us and make it worse and like of course all these things make me angry but it's not their job to accommodate me in my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah but we we need to do more than just survive and have a
[SPEAKER_02]: hurting shoulder from holding him back for the rest of our lives, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, I know there's more work that can be done.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he's a lost cause or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the basic tactics of basic obedience don't feel like we're, it doesn't feel like enough and it doesn't feel like.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's his breed specific to get him to become a confident com adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't expect him to go to the dog park.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want him to go to the dog park.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think dog parks are awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, we need to be able to like walk around our neighborhood or walk around the new neighborhood where he's calm.
[SPEAKER_02]: You may not like what he's seeing, but he's not
[SPEAKER_02]: trying to lurch off the leash into the street and drag me with them in the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I got everything that you're talking about and and and I definitely can can relate and understand what you're talking about for sure, especially with my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of this is going to so a couple of things that came to mind when you were talking about that is there's there's just like these nerves to that dogs have there's certain and it's genetic disposition and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't find genetics right right you could just be you know very frustrating and you'd be kind of chasing that tail your whole life so.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, and I'll just be honest with you, what I've done with Burley, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my very similar dog where he's, he's same, I mean, honestly, man, when you're talking about this, it's just like my dog to a T, it's the same thing like he's never been aggressive towards any dog or any person, but man, if he's held back and he can't do what he thinks he needs to do, then
[SPEAKER_00]: it's it's he becomes extremely reactive and it just comes from a place of frustration but for him it comes from a from a place of if I can't do this then every world dead like it's it's genuinely yeah the lot life or death for him that's just these types of dogs so um there's a couple things that I've been doing one of the things is when I'm out with him is again so we have to go through the the possibilities of making sure we're
[SPEAKER_00]: Correcting the dog is going to be an ineffective in these cases because you're basically 90% of dogs who are reactive are reactive out of fear and lack of leash skills.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this small percentage of dogs 5 to 10% like
[SPEAKER_00]: Luka and like my dog Burley where it's it's just it's guardian breeds.
[SPEAKER_00]: We basically these dogs are meant to be in our yards in our houses Basically if somebody comes in or somebody comes in the property they they handle that person and and when I mean handle they
[SPEAKER_00]: go up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're present.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some dogs are more nervous than not.
[SPEAKER_00]: My dog barely tends to be a little bit more nervous, which means he's ultra ultra suspicious, you know, he's hackles her up and he just so there's other dogs that will just be there and be present.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I guess my point is is
[SPEAKER_00]: sometimes it's easier to work on constructive avoidance and so what I do, let's say I'm out for a walk with Burley and I see another dog or more importantly, if I see somebody not paying attention with their dog or if I see a younger kids walk in the dog, I'll turn around and go the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I see somebody that I know that my dog is going to be suspicious, I have a couple options.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can either work through that with him and fight the beast, if you will.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have a lot, here's the thing, is it doesn't have a lot to do with obedient training.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting, and it's really profound to me to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been studying at least reactivity for over a decade, and getting into these guardian breeds and living with them and understanding them, I have such a different experience and I guess more of a respect of what's actually happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: where, you know, a lot of times I would tell my clients, well, your dog is reactive because your obedience isn't good or you don't have the skill sets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, again, 90% of the time that is the case, but when you get these guardian breeds, you just can't reach them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you physically and mentally cannot reach them when they go into this state of mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter if you have the e-collar and you have the prong collar and you have the food and you're doing all the things.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you get into a situation where they genuinely feel like
[SPEAKER_00]: They genuinely feel like this person that's approaching that's on their you know in their headphones Not paying attention or whatever is a threat to You or or anybody else that your dog loves.
[SPEAKER_00]: They you can't reach him like the training just doesn't Reach them if that makes any sense
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times that I've been doing with Burley is I just turn and burn.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay, so I've been kind of, you know, saying this online, but like it's okay to go the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's, but to be honest, five years ago, if I heard somebody say that, I would be, I'd be cringey, because I baked, that's bullshit.
[SPEAKER_00]: But...
[SPEAKER_00]: Now owning this particular dog, which again, this dog is like the 5% Lucas the 5% where they have this really big protective energy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but the other things, so I just wanted to point that out that that's what I've been doing with Burley is there's a lot of times where I just turn and burn because it just doesn't
[SPEAKER_00]: I have nothing to win to try to move forward and try to reach my dog in this state of mind where I'm basically fighting his genetics.
[SPEAKER_00]: That to me just doesn't make sense and it's to me it's not worth it either.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm out for my morning walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have nothing to prove.
[SPEAKER_00]: My other dog is commanded in three different languages and she's off leash and she listens to everything I say and then I have and I have this Massive which frankly again, I made the video in Instagram the other day where a lot of people that I talked to who own boroughs They're like I've never even put a leash on my marble.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just literally in my yard.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in my house and I travel and I leave and I leave the kids Or I leave my partner or I leave the dog out while I'm sleeping whatever and they don't have to worry about anything
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't put the dog in a leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't do training because of the things that you and I are talking about with Luca and like my dog Burley is they're trying to tame the bear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that doesn't mean you can't walk your dog and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are some realities that I have recently faced as a dog trainer to be like, whoa, this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've done, you know, everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did everything right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been training the dog every day since I go out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm home at eight weeks and he's unreachable in this state of mind because I'm really trying to stop him from doing what he's born to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which could I do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and have I done it several times?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but is it fun?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it scary to the other person?
[SPEAKER_00]: A hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so let's back up into what you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so that's kind of just, I just wanted to let you know that that there is, you know, that option of like, hey, listen, I'm just going to turn and burn, there's nothing wrong with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think you can go out and because he already said like he does go out sometimes, he sees the construction workers, he looks back at you and says, hey, and then you pay him or whatever, that's a good decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: My early will do that too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's like the one out of eight people where he's like, ah, I don't like their sunglasses and you're like really and I get it, you know, it's it doesn't make sense to you or I like why all of a sudden it just whatever so the dismantlement so it sounds like you have pretty good obedience the only thing I would say on top of this is your timing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people who have a good insight turn a good heel a good for the floor down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good thresholds, good obedience, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes their timing is off.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you feel like, let's say you're out walking, he's in a heel, and then all of a sudden, he perks up his chest goes forward as yours go forward, he sees a dog, and you're like, okay, he's about to build.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like he's getting to the point where he's already reactive or pulling, where you're trying to correct him, or you proactive and correct him before he gets to that point?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not been correcting him with the prong.
[SPEAKER_02]: until he lunges.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if there's an opportunity to somehow cool him off or correct him with the prong, I'm certainly open to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've just tried to, it's a combination, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's get some distance, let's stuck into an alley or a driveway, redirect, like, you know, like touch touch shots, do a little spin, look at
[SPEAKER_02]: and be perfectly still and stare at the treat versus the German Shepherd across the street.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I feel like the German Shepherd's going to win out or the German Shepherd's going to bark first and then he's going to lose it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just try to give him like some good alternative to do the right thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then
[SPEAKER_02]: The only time I correct is if he tries to lunge, you know, he kind of pops himself back because I've got the traffic handle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, so it's close and he's not like lurching my whole body or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that you get that perfect pop, if you know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, and he mostly settles down occasionally if it's bad and I have to
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, really giving a pullback because he's hurting me or he's danger to himself, you know, I don't like to say this because I don't do this purposely, but like I've pulled him back and he's like almost toppled over because he just had so much explosive energy that he just redirected it on himself and that kind of like, whoa, what just happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, he's like upset with me or like,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, whiny like, you know, prime or anything, but like it kind of popped him out of it for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm I'm open to different techniques to stop the build, but we just haven't tried that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's good that you haven't tried that yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the timing is important.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say you're out with him and he starts to build.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you want to do is you want to catch him before he gets to the reactive state.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so let's say, okay, he's in a heel, look a heel, he perks up, you say leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing you can do is start working on a focus command, which essentially ask the dog to look at you and engage with you on command, which is pretty helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that way you can give him some pressure for doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's say you're out for walk, he perks up, he starts to build, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You say leave it, and as soon as the dog doesn't disengage, because you already know that he knows what leave it is, because you've used it before, then you would correct the dog, so you would correct the dog, and you would basically try to de-escalate the build before it ever gets to the point of reaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're trying to put out a fire when it's already roaring, it's obviously much, much harder.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of the goal is you're out, he perks up, you say, hey, quit the shit enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't think about it, stop and he goes, nope, and he doesn't disengage, he doesn't stop, he doesn't listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you would correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that that's what I was going to say is if you are waiting for him to Go full on And react then that's going to be that's going to be a huge issue and that could be one of the main reasons why you can't really reach him and you can't Get a hold of him because he's already exploding and you're trying to stop the explosion
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so that would be my recommendation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're out for a walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in a heel.
[SPEAKER_00]: He starts to build Luca leave it He goes screw you correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So before he gets to that point you can do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't try to put the fire out when it's already blazing Which is impossible with a dog like that Yes, as you know they're strong they get loaded the ground and then they just go and you're like oh shit So and sometimes they're definitely is that opportunity where you know
[SPEAKER_02]: time has no meaning in these situations and it could be 10 seconds.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a half a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes that build is noticeable and there are those opportunities.
[SPEAKER_02]: Other times is zero to 100 in a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like truly a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like no time to prepare or set him up or anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just sort of like we need an evacuation plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything to do in those we needed evacuation plan moments yeah it's a great question and that kind of Leans into what I was talking about before is you you kind of have this these this fork in the road Where are we dealing with a dog that is starting to build but not has has not yet gone overboard and has not Basically the fire is a blaze
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we correct him can we read just can we re-engage can we give him an opportunity to make a better decision without any type of pressure or in some cases Can we help him make a better decision by correcting him and snapping out of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, okay, and if not where he just goes you were to a hundred, which my dog has many dogs that I've had on the leash do then at that point you're managing so you go, okay
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're trying to be proactive right by saying hey don't don't do it bad decision okay so it would be it would be the difference between talking your friend out of fighting somebody versus breaking up the fight so there's either you're they're proactive or you're reactive so once he does lunge and there he's gone then you're pulling up on the collar you're trying to extinguish him from lunging forward you're trying to take away basically his base and his power so as he's starting to build his he's going to be long he's going to be strong he's going to be
[SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to basically break that down.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're pulling straight up, take it away.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to lift him basically up, so he can't continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at that point, you're just managing and you're being reactive to what he's doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, like those are things, like those are very sometimes instinctual things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the most time, again, it's those guardian, partitorial dogs where all of a sudden boom, they're gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only other time I've seen it outside of that has just been really aggressive dogs who want to kill things.
[SPEAKER_00]: like these a lot of the predatory based dogs right dogs who just lunge because they just want to kill but the other side is just guardian dogs and to your dog and and Luca and my dog they just again they want to go they get to that person and and they just sniff around and the person just stands there terrified and then they're off okay see you later nice to meet you and they're gone for the most part
[SPEAKER_00]: Other dogs is a little bit different because of course, it's it's predicated off of what the other person at the other dog does so so that's that's what you would do I mean you're out for a walk your dog just goes zero to a hundred you got a giant dog at the end of the leash you're going up
[SPEAKER_00]: you're basically stopping the dog from pulling.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're making a safe assessment here by saying, hey, I'm stopping you from danger.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm stopping you from scaring somebody or potentially getting to a fight with another dog and then after the fact you just have to kind of like really relive what happened and make sure that you learn from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because for Burley it's
[SPEAKER_00]: it for the most part it's it's pretty you can see it coming it's it's it's pretty easy to read but sometimes it's you know sometimes I'll be picking up poop and all of a sudden he's like boom and yeah so again I think it's just it's a very instinctual thing for these big guardian dogs to all of a sudden feel like they need to take this opportunity to address the situation like it's
[SPEAKER_00]: anything that you have done wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not a lack there of training.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just we have a very protective guardian dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we are walking that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you follow me on any social media, I talk about this a lot with my targets.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, I piss a lot of people off by saying they're not good pets, but I just don't want anybody to get a dog thinking that they're big and bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's a lot of dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you basically are hiring that
[SPEAKER_00]: bodybuilder secret service guy to go around your neighborhood and they don't fit in.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just, you know, it's tough for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is a spectrum of breeds, too, to be fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like same thing with Kani Korsos.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get the couch potato Kani Korsos.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get the working line super protective Kani Korsos.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's that spectrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with Bourbles.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've come to find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: so but you got that right you got that very suspicious dog so here's your homework here's here's here's your road map here here's what i would do i would make sure your timing is is really on time so you're out with him he's on a walk he starts to build you say hey quit the shit if he doesn't immediately you're enforcing it bang correction
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he stops engaging, then you would say good.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other thing is, is because if his power and his strength, if he's on your left side, excuse me, and he kind of lunges in front of your legs, then you're into hold on mode, then you're playing tug of war.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you almost have to make sure that you're one step or two steps ahead of him, if he does try to lunge and behind you or in front of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of times I'll be pretty short on the leash, and if you short without anticipatory pressure on the hog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in that way, if he does lunge, I'm going straight up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you can't outpower the dog once he's in full pole mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to go up, you have to take away their base, and dogs don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of looks bad, but of course, he doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to fight you on that once he comes down.
[SPEAKER_00]: then it's kind of all over but I mean it sucks to see like you said it's kind of embarrassing you're out in this person's just walking and all of a sudden your dogs now you're like choking your dog out you're like oh hey good morning it's like man it's it's part of it's part of some of these guardian dogs especially when you get in especially when you get into that genetic side or that spectrum of real protective dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I always tell the story, the same thing for you, I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would imagine you got a conical or so for some sort of protection or some sort of guardianship.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they are big, beautiful dogs, but most people don't get them to do herding.
[SPEAKER_00]: We get them because they're big, protective dogs, and it gives us some, I mean, it's exactly why I got my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a young family, and I travel a lot, and
[SPEAKER_00]: when I'm not home, I feel much more comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my point is, my point is is when you are handling him and you're working with him, you have to also pick your battles.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's been really hard for me to be transparent with my dog is, you know, and with Burley, for an example, like I've done, like I said, I've done all the good training.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can attest to, he's really, he can be running around off leash chasing his sister, his dog's sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: Having the time it was like an off leash and I can just down him whoop, and he'll just down immediately I can recall him off of everything but once he goes into the reason why I was put on this earth And I was born is to go into protective mode and if we as humans try to interject with that It is very difficult like I said to reach him and there's not much any training that can do to prepare you for something like that Yeah, so So your timing has to be really
[SPEAKER_00]: On time, I mean, the other thing that I would say is the remote collar could also be a huge training tool for you to be able to reach him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have used that with my dog several times, mainly because of his power and his strength, because I don't want to fight him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with the prong collar for an example, if you look at the essence of dog training, it's do more of this and do less of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if he's out and you got a prong collar on him and he's all of a sudden goes zero to a hundred bang like that and you go shit You know and you're trying to hang on to him and now you're basically in and putting the fire out You're not working on training.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not working on rewarding him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're working on all right I got a real in the beast to keep everybody safe and try to make this as least Stressful for everybody involved and kind of walk away
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with the E collar because it has a spectrum zero to 130 and I would highly suggest just checking out my videos on the remote collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't already, it's really informative.
[SPEAKER_00]: The remote collar is a great training tool, but let's say you can't physically handle him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know I have a really hard time with my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you get into a situation where you can basically turn the intensity up by pushing a button instead of fight physically fighting the dog when timing matters, that's also just really, really helpful as well to deactivate some of this build.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's just a kind of a side note too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, again, I work with a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of young women get these big conicorsos and these mastives, which is fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just sometimes it's like, look, your dog outweighs you by 50 pounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when they're going to go to your point, if a young woman had a dog like Luca, it'd be very difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be a different conversation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It would just be, you have to use different pieces of equipment to help you with your dog right now, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and I use it with Burley all the time, so instead of trying to fight him in certain circumstances, because of what he's trying to do, the remote collar comes in really handy too to deactivate his build without getting physical with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not opposed to any tool as long as it's used appropriately and responsibly.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were at a point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe like a month ago, we were starting to think maybe he does need this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we did consult with our breeder.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's very reachable, but she's also not on retainer to train us and she doesn't live nearby.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she said, you know, I use E to E collars and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: exacerbate his, like the in that moment, it's like making him build up aggression more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I see this thing and then that thing is hurting me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like you would associate the zap with the dog and that we'd only make a more reactive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's it's a great conversation and I have it often.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what here's how I explain it to people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say we have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's tons of studies behind this too, especially with with younger adults and children.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's pretty interesting where the dog knows the difference between right and wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we say look a heel, look a leave it, look a down, look a stay, look a sit, etc.
[SPEAKER_00]: we've worked on that, we've drove it in, the dog knows it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once the dog decides to go at few, I'm going to terrorize this young family walking their golden on the other side of the road, or whatever, insert innocent bystander, however it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: At that point in time, the dog broke the behavior
[SPEAKER_00]: and knows they're doing something wrong, and then is actively putting themselves in other people in danger.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the remote, any type of correction, e-collar harness, prong collar, plastic pinch, et cetera, genel leader, you go on forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any type of correction is to help the dog understand clearly that that's inappropriate behavior, and we don't want them to do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, to your point, we do, so that's why I always tell people, no, that is the point of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the dog goes, oh, we don't want the dog to think the equipment did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to be really good dog trainers in condition the dog that when they break the behavior is when the punitive and immersive measures come about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not that, oh, I don't like the e-collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the prom collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're good at dog training and conditioning these things, it's the exact opposite.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually, I don't want to break the heel sit down or leave it because I don't want to get punished.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, oh, the e-collars on now I'm getting punished, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so low hanging fruit for people who don't believe in telling their dogs no and holding them accountable and correcting them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can just say if you put a knee collar on a prom collar on a dog, they're just going to basically hate.
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever's handling it, whatever's at the other end, whatever it's on, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is, is we're only applying these basic tool sets to pre-known and pre-existing behaviors.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just gives us an ability to do it safely and humingly to the dog instead of choking themselves out or dealing with the dog actually hurting somebody or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, on paper, I agree 100%, you would imagine that that piece of equipment is going to make the dog even pissed off, but the reality is, if we're doing it correctly,
[SPEAKER_00]: then the dog is actually getting punished and it's a punitive measure for breaking the obedience that we had done, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the dog is making the decision rather that thing comes on or off.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has nothing to do with you, period.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, and again, I've been doing a lot of research on this study too and I've been reading this book by Dr. Aiman, which talks about this a lot with, he's a psychologist and he wrote a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same thing with kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: If, you know, we say, hey, it's time to go to bed if you get out of your crib, unfortunately, no book, but it's completely up to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not that the kids are going to turn around and go, well, go into bed means I don't get a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's if you get out of your bed and you make that decision, then you get no book.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the punishment and the punitive and the aversive thing that the kid or the dog doesn't like is caused by what they do in their actions has nothing to do with the bed, the collar, or that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just there to enforce things.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean it's like I hate it's like you know people I hate cops.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like well Did you break the law or you know it's like it's pretty black and white right you go 70 and 30 It's not the cops fault you got to tick it
[SPEAKER_00]: But to be fair, to be objective, you can absolutely 1,000 percent make that assumption if you introduce both of those pieces of equipment improperly.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, we put a cheap remote collar on a dog, they've never felt it, they've never seen it, we do no conditioning, and they just do something we nail them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to become what we call collar wear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then they're going to turn around and go, that thing sucks, don't put it on me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That can absolutely 100% happen if you do it the wrong way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you do it the proper way, the remote collar conditioning, the dog likes it when they see it, they get excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: That means they're going to go train.
[SPEAKER_00]: That means they're going to go off leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then at some point you can use the corrective levels to help you out by pushing a button instead of fighting this dog and sweating.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a process for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a cheat code where you just stick it on the dog and if they don't listen to his app on, it's much, much more than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a great, great, great, great, great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have a training series?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, I have on these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, I have a course on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have multiple YouTube videos on how to introduce it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also have videos on, I mean, I use them all the time, but I have videos on how to use it as a punitive measure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my e-color course, for an example, is it breaks down fundamentally every single thing you need to do and introduce it on your own.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the remote collar essentially is a conditioning tool that the dog learns how to pick up the phone and you're on the other end It's not in the beginning stages when you're introducing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not punitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not corrective.
[SPEAKER_00]: It should cause no stress It's paired with pre-known behaviors and the dog just barely feels the stimulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the chio practice tends units a same technology Yeah, I know they even have like the vibrate setting
[SPEAKER_00]: And the vibrate is far more versive than the actual conditioning levels of the stimulation, like by a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say we put it on my, I have my own e-collar and it has 127 levels.
[SPEAKER_00]: People ask, why does it have 100?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why does your car have 120?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just in case I guess you get into a high speed pursuit, but the E collar stimulation that we introduced the dog to is barely noticeable.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog barely feels it and then you condition a behavior with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called negative reinforcement.
[SPEAKER_00]: So negative means we're taking something away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we ask it out of the sit.
[SPEAKER_00]: We hold the remote collar at a level that they can feel But it's not punitive or stressful.
[SPEAKER_00]: They go, I wonder what this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: They put their butt on the ground and then the handler pays the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, good sit.
[SPEAKER_00]: They go home Me doing this behavior paired with this feeling or sensation equals this and it's payment
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we really condition the dog that the e-collar is fun and they get to go do stuff and it's just an extension of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But once it's introduced, then you have the ability.
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of like let's say you have corrective levels to your point where you said you correct your dog and he like went flying backwards or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of getting physical with the dog, you can again, it's completely up to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can either not get a correction or you can get a correction, but it's up to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's your decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: You put it into your dog's hands, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you say, sit, he goes, no, there's a dog, he flies off, and so you can just hit a button and automatically go to a punitive measure, you don't raise your voice, you don't flex your muscles, you do nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog just goes back into a sit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, absolutely, check that out on YouTube, just look at my YouTube channel and then the search bar just type in e-collar or remote collar, and there's tons of free introductions, and then my court, my course as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, so I think you already know you're kind of battling this genetic thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not impossible, but I think you have to work on your timing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the inside turn is also really helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say he's on your left.
[SPEAKER_00]: Luke a heel, you're out for a heel.
[SPEAKER_00]: He starts to build up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You take your left leg and you cut him off and you go the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you're not going home.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just going the other way to take him off the heat, if you will.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're going right back and you're working on some engagement.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing too that I think being at least reactivity experts and know in this breed, a lot of people don't have good engagement when they're out in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds like you guys a pretty good engagement with the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, you want to make sure that you have a, do you have a break command with them?
[SPEAKER_02]: Break command.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a release or a free?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we just say okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's also important that when you're out and you're doing your heel and you're free or you're okay That you're doing it in small increments and you do what I call a red light green light or a stop and go So let's say you're out for walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I see often You ask the dog to heal and the dog is in the heel position However, they're very disengaged, so they're not paying attention to you
[SPEAKER_00]: and that's a problem because they're basically kind of searching, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're they're called let's like spotlight consciousness, which means they're with you, but they're not engaged with you, which means, you know, you could say stuff to the dog and they don't even hear you because they're basically scanning the area or sniffing the ground or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I like to do a lot of, I like to do a lot of stop and goes and a lot of red light green lights.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I'll do is I'll go forward and I'll stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so let's say for an example, if you stop and Luca keeps going, that's a big problem because he's telling you right now he's not engaged with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you do that, you have a very, very, very small chance of stopping him from becoming reactive because he's already completely disconnected from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He might as well just be off leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're in environments where you're gonna see people, sea dogs,
[SPEAKER_00]: you want to audit and test your engagement by just stopping.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you slow it in a lot of times I'll shuffle my feet to give the dog a fair opportunity and I'll slow down and if the dog stops and looks at me, I pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, boom, I give him a piece of food and then I heal forward and I'll do that often just to keep the dog engaged.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people who go out with their dog who have a reactive dog
[SPEAKER_00]: don't have good engagement.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always tell people it doesn't so it doesn't take much to soak a damp rag, which means the dog is already 80% there.
[SPEAKER_00]: All they need is is a detonator or trigger like another dog or another person to basically say, okay, F off.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we definitely do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think being a little bit more intentional and
[SPEAKER_02]: is something we can work on.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, we definitely are like practicing looks and rewarding looks, particularly at the beginning and then throughout the walk.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say like you talked about the shuffling of the feet.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I do that within one or two steps, he's stopped.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be a little bit more conscious of making sure that he's looking and checking in with me and not just stopping and
[SPEAKER_02]: for the pressure on the collar to release to continue to walk.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think this is something that we can definitely focus on a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just that tune-up, like you said, if you're engaging in the beginning, like when you go outside, let them do his thing, sniff, pee, poop, whatever, and then start to do what I call a tune-up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're just bouncing back and forth and getting the dog to be engaged with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So timing on the correction, consider the remote collar as an management tool and it just advances your obedience in general and work on your tuneups and your stop and goes and then again and I think you're pretty good at this already but just just know that if you see another dog and you're out for a walk and everything's going good,
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not failing or doing anything, doing anybody harm by just turning burn and just baking, you know what, I don't feel like fighting my dog right now, because, and again, to be honest, again, my dog really has taught me so much as a trainer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that's something I would always discourage my my dog owners doing because I just didn't know the guardian dogs like I know now Or I'm like, oh shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like this is real like he is he goes zero to a hundred so quick And I've been talking to some of my other friends in the dog training space and it's
[SPEAKER_00]: They have more experience with the guardian dogs and they're like, man, you could let them on fire and they're still going to go like training just training obedient training goes out the window They have this just primal like what they live for and what they are are born for is this moment to to what they think like that's what they think you know It's like okay, I need to I need to go smash this person and head bottom and it's like
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, like, and they really think that, you know, and it's like, you don't need to do that, relax.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, so there is that, you know, there is just the reality of, like, holy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, my dog is super trained, but, you know, it's kind of an an oxymoron, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, my dog is super trained, but doesn't listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, it is, again, it's just like, okay, what kind of dog you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have all the things going, you have all the ingredients in the pot for that to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: you have an intact young teenager conicorso and you know it's it's uh it's it's it's it's nothing to be messed with I mean it it's going to make you a better dog trainer and a better owner and it's going to teach you a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be curious what is your breeder say does your breeder say similar to things that I'm saying or do they do they feel like this is
[SPEAKER_02]: What is she, she wasn't thrilled about the reactivity and felt like this was something we need to control.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she's a little bit surprised that when we went over there for the first meet, meet her pack and everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we met all his siblings from prior letters and everything and they were like exuberant and happy to meet us and very friendly.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she also does bite work competitions and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I think she does have a spectrum of personalities and we could have a hyper guardian in the litter where another dog is way more chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's also, I mean, she's been honest.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's like up until somewhere between 18 and 24 months, like their shits, like they are like just.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like around two to a half,
[SPEAKER_02]: They, she's like, they become like just like amazing partners.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she said that this is something that you need to nip in the bud.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that she obviously she's a passionate, responsible breeder and trainer to some degree because she does all this bitework stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: But breeder's have different opinions, then trainers and trainers have different opinions, the veterinarians and
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you got to do that if I was just going to say when I talked to some other boreble guys, they're like, man, I'd love to have that talk and I'm like, so you joke with us, she's like, don't don't make me think I gave you the wrong litter mate because I should have been using Luca for the bite work or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, we were not expecting a Labrador in this situation, but the amount of like every walk having to be like we're going on, you know, like a patrol in the jungle and like the enemies about the pop-hawk is not a way to survive either.
[SPEAKER_02]: So exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am, I understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like probably understand more than than anybody exactly what you're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a great trainer, but she's a great trainer at Labordoodles and, you know, the easy dumb city braids, knit no offense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like this is just not her wheelhouse and like I don't think that all of those techniques are going to work here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just different, you know, it's like bringing a Ferrari into the local Ford dealership.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, we don't even have the tools to take the tire off this thing, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's good for you guys to kind of find that out and a lot of dog owners understand that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's great because sometimes dog owners, they hire this trainer who they love and are great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you see all these, you know, doodles and shepherds doing really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you give them a guardian dog and they're like, well,
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, well, this just isn't your cup of tea and, you know, I've been doing an enormous amount of research on on the breed even after the fact.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've worked with poor bulls before and it just, you know, and I kind of, you know, bite my tongue a little bit because I said what's what's the most
[SPEAKER_00]: I made my bed and I got to, you know, figure it out, but it's, yeah, it's, it's frustrating and it could be challenging, but okay, anything else.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a very little thing, just in general, like for better for worse, we've gone on reddit,
[SPEAKER_02]: The general wisdom with this class of dog is like about an hour and a half, particularly for this age, like an hour and a half up and then they need a nap because they're either getting shitty and overstimulated and he really struggles with regulating himself, he will not take a nap out on his own.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he'll maybe lay down for a little while and not on a toy, but then
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, we don't let him, he sleeps in this crate, he sleeps to the night, but we try to let him hang out on the bed for a while just to cuddle.
[SPEAKER_02]: And lately he's been getting like very nippy in bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He'll like want to like hold on to my arm with his mouth.
[SPEAKER_02]: or give some love nips and playfight or something like that, which is not a behavior that's allowed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just, you know, sort of like his age and
[SPEAKER_02]: um, telling us that he's over tired and cannot regulate and it's time to go to bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this like something that you've experienced at all?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just with with most dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they yeah, they get that again, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the same exact thing with with kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, time for bed time for nap.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do just tell like, you
[SPEAKER_00]: you do anything to him and they're just crying and flopping on the floor and dogs are the same like you open pedom and he's like wow he's grabbing you and you're like dude chill out and yeah they get overstimulated they need naps I mean it's it's the crate if I couldn't you're not in forcers I assure you
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good, yeah, yeah, the nap is great and it's important too because to your point, they kind of get themselves into trouble and they get frustrated and they kind of, they, they're bandwidth just get smaller and and they're again, they're not mountain walls, they're not shepherds, they're not that they can't, you know, keep up with it's just they, they're large breed, they're growing, I mean, it's a young, it's still a young dog too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these larger breeds,
[SPEAKER_00]: they take a long time to fully mature and so absolutely, I would agree, 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100% I would agree to what's going on is that, that, that, that, that last you now and that, that biting and nine and frustration and kind of fighting behavior is it can definitely be, and for me, I just, that's why obedience is really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just go down or I'll say, create basically negative punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll remove myself from the situation and, and just kind of walk away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been a very good call.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate it.