Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep18 - Getting "Firm" with Teenage Dogs

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist

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and this is a Puppy Culture

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potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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Today's topic

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comes to us
through one of my puppy owners.

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I got a phone call

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and my puppy owner had been talking

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to another very respected breeder.

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And my puppy owner has

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a ten month old male bull terrier puppy.

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And this other breeder told him, well,
you know, at this age,

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this is the age where you have to start

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getting firm with them.

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And his question to me was,
what did she mean by firm?

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And I love this question because.

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First of all, it's
absolutely true that you do have to start

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getting more firm with puppies
as they mature.

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But what an experienced

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person's idea of firm is

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and the general
pet population's idea of firm

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are two different things, probably.

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Let me explain.

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So I have to circle back

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to the material

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that we cover in our puppy course.

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Whenever you're dealing with

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a dog that is

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displaying a behavior

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that is either
something that you don't like

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or something where the dog is demanding
something that perhaps

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you don't feel like giving them
at the moment, or you're not sure

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if you really should give in
to their demands for whatever it is.

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You have to go through a process.

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And the first step in the process
is, is this an

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I need or and I want.

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Meaning to say, does the dog

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legitimately have a need that is unmet?

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That you really do have to go in and meet.

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Another dog is truly
within bounds to be asking for this?

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Or is the

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dog just saying, you know
I'd really like this?

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I mean, this would be great.

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I it's this way now.

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And I would rather that
it was this other way.

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And could you do a dog a favor
and give me the cookie?

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Let me out, play with me, pay attention to
me, whatever it is that they're wanting.

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And the $20,000 question, of course, is

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how do you know
if it's an I want or an I need?

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That is going to be beyond
the scope of this podcast.

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But let me give you some examples
to give you a kind

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of an idea of this concept
and what I'm talking about.

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Context is everything.

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If you have

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a two year old dog

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that is perfectly crate trained
and never makes a peep,

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and that dog suddenly is screaming
to get out of that crate,

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you know,
that's an ‘I need’ the context of the dog

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being perfectly crate trained
and it being very uncharacteristic

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for the dog
to be screaming to get out of the crate.

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You know,
the dog's got some kind of problem.

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It's got to get out of the crate.

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It probably has to go to the bathroom.

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That is a classic example of ‘I need’.

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In that case, I don't care what the dog is
doing, how obnoxious the dog is being.

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I'm going to meet that dog's need.

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Now, in contrast, if I have

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a dog that I know

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every time I talk on the telephone,
it starts whining and scratching

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at the crate because it thinks, you know,
maybe I'll have a shot.

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She's not she doesn't have her head down.

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She's not working.

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Maybe I have a shot. She's talking.

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Now I have a different process
that I have to go through

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because I cannot assume it's an ‘I need’.

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And I also can't assume it's an ‘I want’.

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It's most likely and I want
because that's what the dog does.

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But I have to think back to myself.

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When was the last time
that dog was out of the crate?

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What has that, when has the dog eaten?

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Did they actually go to the bathroom
the last time I let them out?

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Is there some real possibility
that this is an ‘I need’

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and if I just let the dog out
15 minutes ago

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and it moved its bowels
and it peed, you know, it's an ‘I want’ I

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can safely ignore this.

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I do not have to let
that dog out of the crate.

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So that's a classic example

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of the same exact behavior
being either an I want

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or an I need depending on the context.

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So when you're faced with this dog

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doing this thing
that is undesirable or demanding of you,

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that's the first formula
that you have to run.

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Is it an I want or and I need.

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If it's an I need,
regardless of the age of the dog,

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whether it's a puppy, adult teenager,
you need to meet that need.

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Okay.

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Then if we're on to an I want,
we can start making decisions

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about whether we are going to gratify
the wishes of the dog

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and on what terms will do so.

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And this brings in the next formula
that you need to run, which is

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where is the dog developed mentally

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with respect to concepts versus rules?

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Again, just to briefly recap, puppies lack

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the executive function
to really wrap their head around rules,

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so we're more interested in instilling

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concepts in puppies
than teaching them rules.

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It is not
until they get a little bit older

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that they really have
the prefrontal cortex,

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the executive function, to be able
to wrap their head around consequences

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- if/then kind of consequences,
we certainly introduce this to them. But

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the puppy brain is preferentially wired

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for emotional versus operant learning,

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classical conditioning

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versus operant conditioning.

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So they learn by association
how to feel about things with as little

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as one exposure,
but it's difficult for them

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to maintain criteria for rules.

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You are setting yourself up

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for frustration and failure.

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If you try and impose
rules on a young puppy,

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they just don't have the wherewithal

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to maintain the criteria.

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So whether you gratify a dog's
request for something and how you do it,

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and whether you ask the dog
for something in return, first

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is going to really depend how old the dog
is and where they are developmentally.

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Example, manding.

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Manding is a concept

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that we teach very young puppies
starting at four weeks old

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that they can ask for something
that they can communicate

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to us, that they have a desire,
something that they either need or want.

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And we use a sit as a mand.

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And it's not sit
sitting politely for patting

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or it's not sitting first
in order to access resources.

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It's the puppy being able to say, Hey,
look, human, I'm sitting.

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That means I want something.

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It's an upward communication
from the puppy to us.

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It's a concept that it's possible

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to get something by doing a behavior,

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not a rule that he must do something

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before accessing resources.

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Two completely different things,
but again, very confusing for pet owners

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because the behavior of sitting

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could very well
be either a mand or a rule.

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Again, depending on the context.

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We do not

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require our puppies to perform behaviors
to access resources.

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We don't ask that of young puppies, but

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as they get to be 12, 14, 16 weeks,

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and then especially five, six months,
there's a big jump.

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And now we start instilling more rules
in our household.

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So now is the time
that maybe you have to sit

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before
you can access the outdoors or sit before

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you are patted or sit before
I'll throw that toy for you.

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We start asking for things
in exchange from the dog.

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That is the most powerful and primary tool

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that we have as human beings with our dogs
is that we control

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all the resources we are truly dominant
in that sense that that dominance,

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meaning the scientific meaning,
being in control of the resources,

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we are truly dominant over dogs

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and we start shaping our dogs behavior

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by controlling those resources
and beneficently giving them out

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in exchange
for behaviors that we find acceptable.

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So how does this all

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relate to being firm?

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Well, I think you begin to see
when we're talking

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about the first part of the formula,

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which is, is it I want or is it an I need

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the age of the dog is definitely context.

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Certainly
any puppy that has only been in my house

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for a day or two or even the first week,

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I pretty much treat everything
as an I need.

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They've been separated
from the only family they've ever known.

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They're in a new house,
they're with new dogs.

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Their whole world has been turned
upside down.

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They need comfort. They need reassurance.

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You don't need to worry about spoiling
the baby.

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It's a baby.

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And it's okay to let them, quote unquote,
get away with whatever they want to.

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Pick them up if they're crying
in the pen, I don't care. But

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as they start getting

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older
and you start having a routine with them

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and they start falling into that routine,

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now we've got a different proposition

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because, again,

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puppies are going to try things.

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Dogs are very hopeful creatures.

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I mean,

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they're going to try all kinds
of behaviors to get what they want

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and they really have to
go through them all

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and figure out which ones work
and which ones don't.

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So as you're getting to those teenage
years, you know,

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ten months old,
when we talk about being firm with them,

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I think part of what we mean

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is that we are going to assume less,

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that it's going to be an ‘I need’.

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The context of the dog being ten months
old is telling us, you know,

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when they start acting out
or demanding things

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or barking
or any of these common annoyances,

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we're going to lean more towards
the side of it being an

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I want because they're going to try it on
for size.

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You still have to, you know,
do your due diligence and think back.

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Does the dog have a point?

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But chances are you're going to start
seeing more demanding kind of behavior

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at around this age where they're like,
Hey, this might work.

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And being firm doesn't
mean disciplining them.

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It just means, no,
I'm not going to cave to that.

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Again with concepts and

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rules, with a puppy
that wants to go outside.

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I mean, I'm going to take the puppy out.

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If the baby puppy wants to go outside,

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if it's ten weeks old, I'm going to assume
it needs to go outside.

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It's a it's an I need
or even if it wants it.

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What the heck,
I'm going to take the puppy out.

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But, you know, if I've got a ten month old

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now, I'm going to say,
first of all, make sure

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it's and I want and not know I need I'm
going to go through the whole thing.

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When was the last time the dog was out?

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The dog was just out 15 minutes ago.

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We went out,
we played, we did this, we did that.

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And then I'm going to make a decision.

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Am I going to gratify it?

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Yes/no, I mean, I'm busy.

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No. Then my firmness is no,
you're not going out.

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You're going in a crate

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because it's annoying to me
that you're scratching at the door.

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Or two, yes, I am going to gratify it,

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but you're going to have to do something
for me before I do for you.

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Now you're going to have to sit
before I open that door, because

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we're not going to reward the scratching
or obnoxious, obnoxious barking.

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We're going to look for a behavior that
we find acceptable to ask for this thing.

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So again, I don't want you to think
that your dog is bad or wrong

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because they do things like bark,

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scratched doors,
make noise in their crate, beg for food.

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They're going to try all these things.
This is natural.

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You have a healthy, smart, active

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dog, if they're doing all those things,
congratulations.

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You have a normal dog.

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But, you know, you just kind of

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have to go through the whole punch
list and say, Yeah, sorry, bud.

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Nope, this doesn't work.

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This does work.

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And just teach them what works
and what doesn't.

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But again,
I can't overemphasize, emphasize

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you always have to go to that first part
of formula first and make sure it's not.

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And I need get to the point where it's in
I want and then make a decision.

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Are you going to gratify or not gratify

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if you're not going to gratify,
you've got to stop the behavior.

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You can't let them go on.

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For instance, barking at the
at the front window, if there's if there's

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people walking down the street,
you call them once, one time.

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If they don't come away,
you just go get a leash.

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You take them. You put them in a crate.

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If they

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want to go out the back
and they're scratching at the door.

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And that's not, you know, some people
maybe that would be the signal

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that they would want.

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I wouldn't want my dog necessarily
to do that or bark

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if they're out the back door and
they're barking incessantly to get out.

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I mean, maybe
you want them to bark to get out.

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Maybe that's not what you want.

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Maybe you have a bell
that you want them to ring.

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Maybe you know, you want them
to scratch of the door and not bark.

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I mean, you pick your poison there, but

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maybe I'm going to think, well,
maybe the dog's going to have to sit

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before they go outside.

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You know, they've indicated to me
I'm going to do for them.

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Maybe now is my opportunity to teach them

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to do something for me
in return for me giving them something.

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As the puppy

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gets older, this is what we mean
by being firm that we're not flexible

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on this, that we've made a determination
that it's an I want or an I need.

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If it's an I want, either
you're going to get it or you're not.

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And if you're not, it's not negotiable.

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You're going right into containment
if you don't comply

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with what we're asking you to do.

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And again,
you're dispassionate about this, okay?

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You're not angry, It's not punitive.

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It's just showing the dog
that crime doesn't pay you, okay?

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That whatever it is, it's a zero.

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I always say dog training is binaries,
zeros and ones.

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Okay, we're teaching zeros and ones
when they get to be ten months old,

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barking at the front window is a zero.

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You get nothing for it either.

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You get called away, and if you can't
stay away, then you get put in a crate.

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It just. It yields nothing for you.

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And then ones would be things
like I sit before I go out.

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That's a one. It pays. I get what I want.

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I come in the kitchen,
I sit in front of you, Look at me.

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I'm an amazing dog. I get paid for that.

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So we're teaching the dog
what pays, which are ones

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and what does not pay, which are zeros.

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It's as simple and dispassionate as that.

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But being firm

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does not mean
being stern, strict or angry.

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It means maintaining that criteria

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and not being wishy washy about it.

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And this can be very complicated,
especially in households

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with multiple people where some maybe
are going to be a little bit of more

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of a soft touch and give in sometimes, But

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especially in this teenage stage,

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okay, these puppies
like between five months to two years old,

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it is so super important

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that you maintain criteria,

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that you always are not paying

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what you don't want
and paying what you do want.

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Because here's the thing,

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if you're not firm in this

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way, and when I say firm again,
I mean you being firm.

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More, it's an internal state that you have
the discipline to maintain the criteria.

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And if you do have that discipline,
what will happen

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is that all those behaviors
that you don't like will just fade away.

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The dog will maybe try them
sometimes first, like,

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for instance, the dog scratches
at the door instead of rings the doorbell,

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but then he scratches at the door
and then he rings the doorbell

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and you let him out.

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And then you may get a scratched
door, ring doorbell, go out.

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But eventually that scratch the door,
well, it will fade.

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It will become what we call
superstitious behavior,

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because it really isn't
part of the behavior.

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The behavior that's paying
is the bell ringing.

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So dogs are efficient.

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You know, they're going to drop anything
that doesn't work.

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They're going to sort of prune
they're going to prune the behavior

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down to the,
the least that they have to do.

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So again, don't worry
about stopping the stuff you don't want.

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Just pay exactly what you do want
and the stuff

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you don't want will fall away.

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So to sum it all up,

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yes, you do have to become

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more firm
with your puppies as they mature,

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and certainly especially with teenagers,
you have to be extremely firm with them.

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But firm does not mean punitive.

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It does not mean punishing.

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It means that you have to maintain
criteria,

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that you have to always be clear

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about whether it's an I want or an I need.

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You have to make a decision.

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If it is an I want whether you will

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or will not be gratifying
that dog's wishes.

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And if you do decide to gratify
the wishes of the dog, you have to be

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crystal clear about the terms under
which you will gratify

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those wishes.

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If you like this podcast, you'll love

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00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,720
our puppy course at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,040
Breeders, we have a course for you

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00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:28,480
to at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,440
Well that's it for this time.

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00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,040
Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.