Fan Engagement

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Speaker 1: Okay, did that get recorded?

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Speaker 2: You've been recording.

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Speaker 3: Amazing, Great, that's what.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

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Speaker 3: I have to move off this chair though, because it's going to sound like I'm farting the whole podcast. Okay, Hi everybody, and welcome to the Renee Stubsentners Podcast. That's how we start our podcast here in New York City. We are in my apartment today because we want to continue to watch the tennis while we're doing.

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Speaker 2: Our pod, and we can't miss a minute of tennis.

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Speaker 3: No, and I am of course joined by the one and only Caitlyn Thompson and Caitlin. People have been asking for Petko to return. How do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: I feel great about Petko. I would like to fire myself and replace myself with Petko. Everyone acknowledges that she's unparalleled.

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Speaker 3: Listen, we love Petko.

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Speaker 1: We want her back.

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Speaker 3: She's coming back around Thanksgiving time, so everybody calm the farm until then. She's rather busy in Europe promoting her second book, doing all kinds of things of the first book because well it's in German. I mean, she was supposed to get it changed to English as well.

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Speaker 2: But I do enjoy languages. But German has not been one that I've ever attempted to. It seems like it's not really worth the effort to be It is not easy, uns.

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Speaker 3: I am joined next to me by my neighbor's dog, Ruthie, and if anyone follows me on Instagram or whatever, they would acknowledge that she is cute and she's sitting next to me, and so much so that you, Caitlin came in and said that is the one dog I could have.

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Speaker 2: Yep. She's a pug puppy and about the same size as a cat. And even though she hasn't really done any movement or interaction much beyond just kind of sitting there like a lump, she's already vastly more intelligent than my cat, Jeff.

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Speaker 3: Oh so, Jeff has been running into walls apparently, and jumping into the windows.

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Speaker 2: And you know they can all be geniuses.

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Speaker 3: You picked non genius cat. I don't know, man, is the problem with animals in general is that you just never know what they're literally, like a box of chocolates, like you prayed it, they're going to be really well behaved and sweet and like not bark and like too much not piss and shit everywhere, and yeah, you just.

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Speaker 2: Get they kind of are who They's the same thing with kit Did you hear that. It's the same thing with kids. You just like you can try to teach them to be kind and you know, good in the world, but also they have their own personalities. Our cat, look, all I'll say about him is my wife's trying to get.

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Speaker 3: Him to per what you have to pet the cat?

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Speaker 2: He doesn't. He doesn't really like being pet.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you're screwed thing.

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Speaker 2: I know, he's six months old. We have this is like there next twenty years.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Jeff, Claire, you just just get a dog, get a part, I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Which is the Arabic word for like oh oh like oh Jeff ran into the sliding glass door and then did it again ten seconds later.

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Speaker 3: She would just say, oh, is he blind? I mean he does have a bit of a wonky eye. He's one of those kets.

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Speaker 2: Simes often have a wonky I don't even know he was a rescue. I don't know. This is just we're That's the other thing about pat ownership and being a parent. You're just like you're in it now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're screened.

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Speaker 1: You're just like, OK, I can't give him back.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: I mean, but unfortunately, there's a lot of ausholes in the world that actually do give their cats and dogs back when they're not Oh they're not exactly what I expected. Well, maybe they have a mental problem.

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Speaker 2: I think maybe Jeff had.

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Speaker 3: A little uh brain damage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe he was like cut off from oxygen or something.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, listen, let's get into it. People come to the podcast to listen about tennis, and we waffle on about the w NBA, about our cats, our dogs.

00:03:43
Speaker 2: Our highest rated episode. I am I fear that Renee, even though I'm the one between us who is candidly more disciplined about staying on message, and I do not use social media to engage in politics, having covered three presidential elections, I'm afraid. I don't want to talk about it. I just want to acknowledge that it's I was doing a really good job of filtering it out and not engaging.

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Speaker 3: It all, and then all of a sudden, you work up panic today?

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Speaker 1: No, was it today?

00:04:08
Speaker 2: I'm not panicked. I'm just emotional.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, emotional.

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Speaker 2: I got into the voting booth on Saturday. I voted early yeah, and got my stecher. Do you know what it's the people volunteering get me? Yeah, because they're like facilitating democracy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can honestly say people, I'm sitting here and Caitlyn, she's a bit of a crier.

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Speaker 1: I am also a crier.

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Speaker 3: So that shows an empathy because she said to me once that she didn't like dogs, so I worry. But now she's coming crying. Second of all, she likes the pug that's sitting here next to know that it is literally in her lap pretty much. Who And so Ruthie named after Ruth Bader Gimsberg and a little bit of an ode to also Babe Ruth.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but she's a girl.

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Speaker 3: So my neighbors Marty and Jeremy named her Ruthie after RBG. So I think that's a sign, Kitlink, it's a sign.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: I was a political reporter for a couple of years, fifteen or so, and the thing that I didn't like about politics was that instead of telling stories and engaging with policy and talking about how politics should be a forum for us to all collectively decide how to make the world better, it was covered like a sport. Who was winning, who was losing. And what we've learned in the last couple of election cycles is that all the men, mostly who do polling, a lot of whom came from sports, don't know shit, and these polls are inaccurate and really truly, the only thing we can do is engage with the system and vote and volunteer and yeah, like you know, try to create like a better society. And I just, you know, I do think one of the reasons that I'm so ultimately optimistic, and one of the reasons I love tennis so much is it gives us all these amazing ways to connect with each other and connect with the world. And I think, you know, I'm actually sort of filled with a lot of optimism because I think we're ready to hopefully turn the page. It's been a horrific chapter.

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Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, I just think about like the motion that he made the other day, just texting you with another friend of mine who said, what are you doing tomorrow night? Because Eric and I her husband, my friend Jill and Eric, they were She's like, I think I'm just gonna go and walk around the streets. I can't be around any news I can't see.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, I want to acknowledge that a lot of our listeners do not live in America, and that's true. That's true from them for the last for the last week or so, saying they're thinking about us and they can imagine what it's like being here. And look, we're in New York.

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Speaker 3: You know we we we are in a little bubble here, like no matter what. Like Kathy her call is, you know, I heard her on My Friends and Our Friends podcast. I've had it podcasts to women who are liberal women from Oklahoma City, which if you know Oklahoma City like I do, it's not a place where a lot of liberals live. It's very Christian, right, it's very red.

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Speaker 2: Only dry wedding i've ever been to, which I don't recommend, was in little town outside of Okahoma City called Elk City. It was brutal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well listen, I told you. I think I may have told you a couple of years, Like when I was living there at like eight PM, before Florida had come in, before Pennsylvania or Ohio, all the big states on the east coast, Oklahoma had already been given red. I'm like, Oh, I was living there with my girlfriend at the time, I'm like, oh babe, Oklahoma's gone red.

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Speaker 1: Can you believe it? It's already done. They've already counted it.

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Speaker 3: Because the exit polls were like overwhelmingly read, so they already claimed it it had gone red. And I was thinking, oh my god. Okay, So Caitlin, before we get off this subject. For Americans, like, I'm a dual citizen. I vote here, I paid taxes here, I have for a long time. It's like the electoral college is so messed up. Because I was thinking about it the other day. If you're a Democrat that lives in Oklahoma, let's say, if you're a Republican that lives in California, or in New York or you know, in May, you know these places that are very, very very blue, Like, what is the point of going out and voting? I think that the electoral when you look at it and you say, well, this is only this election. Nobody cares about those states. This election is based on Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, like essentially six or seven states. Like, what is the point of not having every vote count? In Australia, it is a requirement that you vote. If you don't, you get fined, Like, I don't understand why in this country every vote doesn't count because if I'm a blue person living in a red state or vice versa, it's like I feel you're dis in franchised, and.

00:08:39
Speaker 1: That's yeah, on purpose.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand it.

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Speaker 2: Of course it's meant to I think most of our we did a lot of projects when I was in public radio. The last presidential election that I covered was in twenty twelve, and those were relatively mild, like those where both candidates were thinking, seeing rational somewhat people who were able to, you know, articulate policy positions, and it wasn't evolved into toxicity, a choice between as many people have joked, like you at a restaurant and there's on the menu chicken or a steaming pile of shit with glass yards in it. It's like you're not asking what, you know, how they made the chicken.

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Speaker 3: You're like, I'll just eat that chicken, sure, whatever you say.

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Speaker 2: Less so for me, the way that we tried to cover the election, especially in public radio, which was more of a public outlet, you know, obviously being publicly funded, but like we try to basically take the position that civic engagement is good, Voting is good, Participation in democracy is good. And therefore, how can we expand it, protect it and explain why it's not widespread and looking at countries like Australia and how voting is mandatory, Yeah, manditory's and it should.

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Speaker 3: Be a day off if it should be a.

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Speaker 2: National holiday day, and it should be much more accessible. And every effort that we've made to make that restrictive jerrymandering creating essentially a Congress that overrepresents Red states, underrepresents blue states. Cities are shafted despite our economic You know, these aren't new concepts, but they're all part of a larger systemic vote to disenfranchise black people and women, I mean, as they always have been and other people have elected you know, uh, women before, we have people of color before we have And now guess.

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Speaker 3: What all those countries that it voted for women, Okay, they did pretty well.

00:10:26
Speaker 1: They did pretty well.

00:10:27
Speaker 3: They didn't go into decline, they didn't go into depression, they didn't go into major wars.

00:10:32
Speaker 1: Like we're all good.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you could make some cases about Margaret Thatcher, well that's.

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Speaker 3: Very true, okay, fucking w Yeah, but she was there for a while.

00:10:39
Speaker 2: But who thought they'd be listening to the two of us talk about the wars?

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Speaker 3: I know anyway, so listen.

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Speaker 2: So it's a tench time. But I, like I said, bring this back to tennis. The thing that makes me really happy to talk about this sport and cover this sport and be part of this, and why I don't miss covering political elections is because it gives us the chance to talk about actually things that I care about. Access, globalism, the idea that all of these countries are from vastly different socioplastic places, geopolitical situations, and you're.

00:11:08
Speaker 3: Talking about tennis players.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about tenns players. In the fact that this is a global sport and it really touches every single part of the world in a way that's fascinating, whether you're recreationally involved her or at the pro level.

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Speaker 3: All right, so let's get into that because obviously the WTA finals are going on. We are sitting here watching Sabalanca Pauolini right now. Sabalanka won the first set, very entertaining first set. Sabolenka playing very good tennis indoors. She's going to be the toughest player to absolutely beat at this tournament because of all the variations, serving huge, big serve plus one. She's the best in the world at that, there's no question about it. And Paulini's holding her own, but the first set went to sable Anca's way. If we're talking political stuff on this particular podcast, I'm looking at the crowds and this tournament being in Reard. We have been asked many times by our listeners about how we feel about it. We're all pretty open and we've talked about it at nauseum. When I look up to the stands and I don't see a full stand, I have a problem with that. And as much as these players are making a shit ton of money, okay, and because of the Saudi influence in this situation, I don't understand the optics of why we think that that's a good look for the WTA in general of being in a place like this, but also just not having the support people that live in this country are either unbelievably wealthy or incredibly poor. The incredibly wealthy people are mostly, if not all men. They are not going to be pounding down the doors to go and watch women's tennis. So and of course the port are working they have no time to go and watch tennis and pay. Even though you heard that there's tickets being solved for eight dollars, some.

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Speaker 2: Of the tickets are on sale for the equivalent of eight fifty eight seventy I have something like that.

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Speaker 3: So what are we doing here? What are your thoughts when we are talking about a global sport like tennis and taking it into a place like this and not getting the support it should.

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Speaker 2: I I mean, honestly, like I we the Saudi part of this is significant. I sort of put this at the feet of the WTA, which is to say, the last three tournaments that they've had, the last finals fort Worth, can Kun and now Riad have had less than full stadiums. And to me, well, Kan Kune had good at night, sure, and there are lots of people in Texas who love tennis. This tournament had the benefit of planning. I don't think there's a fan engagement strategy that's across the tour. I think the ATP has more of one than the WUTA appears to. Obviously, we've been talking a lot about how that's something that could be helped if they merge. I don't know that it's solely to blame that it's in Saudi. I think part of it is that it's been a part of the world where maybe tennis is not historically drawn a lot of fans, you know, But if you look at the tournaments in Doha, d you buy Abu Dhabi, they've had some success getting people in stands, but not as many as you'd hope.

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Speaker 3: It is the first year.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not trying to pull punches like it's disappointing to sort of see with planning that it's still not super well attended. Yeah, and I think there's tons of fans from people I know who are there from China, from Poland.

00:14:28
Speaker 1: You know.

00:14:28
Speaker 2: Ego's contingency is pretty vocal, as was Chinwan Jung's over the weekend when she was playing and ultimately lost her first round match against Arina Saballega. But like, I don't know why this. I don't understand what the sort of excuse could be as to why it's not packed. And I think part of it.

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Speaker 3: Is, well, don't you think it has a lot to do with the economics of the country.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, but I think that's true in China as well. It's also true in a lot of European countries where the wealthy can attend tennis. It's it's not.

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Speaker 3: It's yeah, but China has a gazillion people, so they China has huge, huge discrepancy having the rich and the poor.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know again they I think it's also like you can't count on locals only to go to this tournament.

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Speaker 3: How many exactly you have to have a destination going to the ATP finals in Turin probably a good amount? Oh yeah, well you can drive there from Italy. You can drive there from Spain, you can drive there from France, you can drive there from you know, anyway.

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Speaker 2: And again, were we to create a new destination. I had a call this morning with a tournament that's uh in Asia, not China, where the destination has come back on the radar, and they want to encourage people from other countries to come visit. Okay, well why would they? The food is great, it's warm year round.

00:15:49
Speaker 3: Are you not going to disclose?

00:15:51
Speaker 2: I can't disclose, okay, but I'll talk about it later if it ends up with the main we work on. I mean, honestly, like going on like dune buggies and deserts and seeing landmark historical sites is something I would do. I would visit this place. Have I been marketed to or promoted in terms of tourism, No, no, And so I think that's part of it, which is you can't count on only the local population. Like I would have gone to Cancun. I love going to Mexico. I don't need much excuse, But the promotion of the tournament and the ways to buy tickets and the announcement of the destination was just so last minute and scrambled. That's not the case here. But I do think they're suffering from the fact that it seems to be locals only, or at least drastically, you know, over reliance on a local economy. So I think that's part of it.

00:16:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, you nailed it, and that's how I feel as well. And you know, when you're making a consideration of way to put a tournament, you have to have the infrastructure of local fans that love it. When you think about tournaments around the world that do really well, they have a great love of that tournament every year rolling around you know, Canada is a perfect example, like Montreal and Toronto, they get unbelievable fans, incredible people every day, all day, and they are ready for that tournament to come back every single year. So that the local engagement is absolutely important, but also a destination is hugely important for these superstars from their country so people can go and support them, and people from in Italy and Russia and maybe Russia, but you know all these other countries that are involved in this that have players from the Czech Republic, for example, They're not going to go to read They're just not going to do that.

00:17:30
Speaker 2: Why.

00:17:31
Speaker 3: I just think it's a pain in the ass for them.

00:17:34
Speaker 1: It does seem it's a long flight.

00:17:36
Speaker 3: They don't feel maybe they don't feel safe there. Maybe there's a lot of LGBTQ I plus fans of women's tanners that don't want to go to real Maybe don't they feel vulnerable there and as they should.

00:17:47
Speaker 2: I don't know where I would stay, Like, I feel like the tourism part of it needs to be jurassically rethought. I mean, then again, this was true of a place like Singapore that I had traveled to and you coached a player who is the w couple. Were there good crowds there?

00:18:03
Speaker 3: They were okay? And Singapore is a glott Again it was not advertised, right.

00:18:08
Speaker 2: But I guess my point is in spite of Singapore being a global destination with direct flights from a lot of places, Yes, it is a far flight if you're coming so far or the US, but it's worse than almost a direct flight to a place that has an incredible food, where it's always warm, like That's that's a place that shouldn't be too hard to get people to go see the best time.

00:18:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, like Paris to in London.

00:18:30
Speaker 2: All these places take different points. I'm not saying that we should put tournaments only in Europe. I'm saying we should continue to make them in intrepid places, but we need to back it up with messaging and coordination with tourism and understand that people want to be spectating but also playing when they go watch these things. And I don't think there's a lot of thought as to, you know, how to make that a complete touristics.

00:18:51
Speaker 3: I understand what you say, now, yeah, yeah, I agree, so wt A Uh. There are many ways to get people to go and watch these tournaments, and you have to make it a destination, have to make it a place people want to go. Tourism involvement is important all of the.

00:19:05
Speaker 2: Things, all the things. The tennis is great, and Tennessee women deserve with something which the men will have, which is not only a very large prize purse, but also like engaged fans and crowds. And I think we've seen them a little bit in this tournament, but I'd love to see it more. This tournament is here for three years, whether we like it or not, and hopefully next year they'll be able to get more out of towners in who consider the WT finals an important turn.

00:19:29
Speaker 3: Should we work on this for them?

00:19:31
Speaker 1: Let's work on this.

00:19:32
Speaker 2: Get at us because knows I'm talking about covering body.

00:19:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, get at us. Well, we'll help you get this tournament going, and let's talk about this tournament.

00:19:54
Speaker 1: Cocoa Goff.

00:19:57
Speaker 3: One of the things that I said on our last pod was if she served under six double faults in the matches that she plays, she will win them all.

00:20:07
Speaker 2: You look at you.

00:20:08
Speaker 3: She served two against Pogola. But Caitlin, that's my point. She's been playing great. She's hitting the ball great, her groundies are great, like she is the best mover on tour. She knows how to win big matches. She knows how to win big tournaments, you cannot win if you are giving someone twenty plus three points a match indoors. Now, having said that playing indoors really does help you serve, you don't get as you know, shitty with the tosses. The wind doesn't affect you, the sun doesn't affect you. If you're double folding indoors, you have a huge problem with.

00:20:42
Speaker 1: Your service technique. Okay, But having said that.

00:20:45
Speaker 3: She did not hit more than two double folds and won the match easily against someone she has notoriously lost a lot of tennis to.

00:20:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cuckoo look great, And actually that match made me really excited about her section because I think she and Ega will have a very very competitive match on a surface that slightly kind of favors neither of them because they're both a little bit better on clay. I would say Ega is better on clay, then Coco is better on hard courts. Yes, but I do think that this is a slight advantage to Coco, and I'm really excited to see how they're going to match up because they kind of have similar games in a way that I think like Coco's offense will be effective as she plays as well as she did against Jess Bagola, So yeah, I was really encouraged to see that, and not only the double faulting. Just it was pretty comprehensive. I will say Jess quite tired, Yeah to me, yeah, which is not to make excuses. Coco played great and all credit. Yeah, very strange, just did not look like she wanted to have her season keep going.

00:21:45
Speaker 1: Yes, which way fair well.

00:21:47
Speaker 3: The flip side of those matches was, of course Ega coming back from a set and three love two breaks to Babora Jikoba.

00:21:55
Speaker 2: That was right. That's when I started watching. I blame myself.

00:21:58
Speaker 3: So you're the lucky chump for Did you guys hear that?

00:22:01
Speaker 1: Did you guys hear that?

00:22:02
Speaker 3: When started watching, she started winning. So she played so much better once she started hitting the ball in the court. And Borajkova is one of those players somebody, you know, funny, We've brought it up before, but someone said, how to Bborakjikova win Wimbledon? And she said, because I once ever matches in a row. She is the type of player when she's on, she's so good, and she's so tough and so smooth. And I think I did tweet out something like when she's smooth, she's so good, but then when she goes off, she really goes off. It's like she doesn't seem to find that middle ground area with her game, and Eager started to You could tell that Eager was like, Okay, started to relax, started to find her rhythm a little bit, started playing great in the third set, like she was hitting the ball really really well in the third and clocking winners all over the place, and Babora was just like done.

00:22:51
Speaker 2: But the thing.

00:22:52
Speaker 3: About this tournament is that every game and every match counts, like every single set, every single game counts. It can come back on games won and lost for sure. So the fact that Krajikova wana set doesn't count her out, like for example, Coco won in straight sets, Like for someone like Jess to get through, she's going to have to win both her matches, it seems like, in straight sets. So there's a lot of variables that go on in the WTA finals and literally games can get you through the semi finals. So it's going to be interesting to see who can come out between the likes of Eager and Coco and who can dominate in this part of the draw. Now because Kjikov has got a set. Okay, that counts, So how will you know the next couple of matches go. It'll be interesting, yeah, for sure.

00:23:37
Speaker 2: And on the other side, we're seeing suddenly a second match. She beat chin one in the first round pretty handily. And Elena Rebukina, I gotta say we were sort of she was a big question mark when we talked about this last week because she's not played in a couple of months. Very very very excited to see that Elena Rebekin is going to be working with Goran even ease of it.

00:23:59
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what on my list of us to talk about. Yeah, I think it's good because he first of all, he's going to be eight thousand times more positive than the dude before, which we know how we felt about him, and Gorin has course been there and done that. And that was one of the things that irked me about the previous coach I'm not even going to say his name, is that every time she would look up in big moments, he would be gesturing. He would be you know, she would miss a forehand and he would be like, you know, gesturing negatively, be talking to the people around him, and it's like when you play. And I said this years ago when we first brought this up. I have been in those moments. I have been on match point to win Grand slams. I have not in singles but in doubles, but I have been out there. I have played Grand Slam tennis. I've looked up on my coaches when I've missed a forehand and my forehand was my weakness if I saw them gesturing, and you better believe I'm not exactly film positive about the next foehand that I hear like I am shitting myself, going, oh my god, Like I know, I need you to be supportive of me. You know, we've talked about it with Sam Stow's for example. You know when Sam would miss aforehand return, she would just she said to me later, you know, when I was coaching her, She's like, I just need you to tell me in those moments, you got this. And I learned a lot from that from her. You know, instead of trying to correct it for her, like get your racket back earlier, or finish the shot or whatever sort of Q words, she would just say, you got this because these tennis players know how to make the shot. You just got to make them feel good about it. Yeah, And this guy, every time he would be out there, he'd be just gesturing, looking like he wanted to kill her every time she lost a point. Goran, on the other hand, is going to be positive. He's going to be he's going to understand what it feels like to be vulnerable. He's going to be empathetic. The guy was a bit of a mental case.

00:25:40
Speaker 2: On the court himself, and very famously self aware about that, Yes, aspect of himself, which I love, Yes, which I love. Like, Yes, he was a maniac, but he'd be like, Yeah, I would go out there and I don't know what Goran would be, Yeah, out there with me?

00:25:55
Speaker 3: Well, we know which one he's going to get with Rebark in it. It's going to be, you know, poker face the whole time. So he's going to love the fact that he's working with somebody who's not going to be demonstrative like him or Goro or Novak. To be honest, Novak was you know, knew what you were going to get out of him sometimes yelling and screaming at Goron. But I'm excited for it because I think it really can make a difference for her.

00:26:17
Speaker 2: Me too, And I will say, you know, we weren't sure what kind of player was going to show up, but we know we're rooting for her. And I think despite the fact that she lost both of her matches to open, she got a set off Chin one yep, and she played two pretty close.

00:26:32
Speaker 3: Sets against Paulini.

00:26:33
Speaker 2: Sets against Paulini in a way that made me think, Okay, she's not far off from the level this has actually got to be. Despite sitting where she says now at own two like actually a pretty positive outcome and she's got, you know, a year to look forward to where she's with a new coach who will be more positive. Like to me, there's nothing but upside for her, which.

00:26:52
Speaker 3: I'm excited for the fact that she looks healthy. Yeah, she looks happy out there. Yeah, she looks like her old self. There is no way she was going to do well at this tournament. I would have been shocked if she'd won a match, and I all sort of have been like, Wow, what extraordinary talent to come back after months and months and not you know, play well enough to be competitive with these best players in the world. All these players have been playing for the last three months she has not.

00:27:15
Speaker 2: And coming into this with confidence, with a ton of momentum, and I mean maybe not eager, but yeah, like.

00:27:23
Speaker 3: Well she's played since the US Open, but she did, you know, from coming back from a set and three love showed her champion qualities of not tanking but not giving up. Also, she was very aware of shit, I need to win games right, So they're very aware of that. It's kind of like the old World tim tennis, you know, standpoint of what Billy Geane used to say that every point should matter, every game should matter. So that's what that's what the WTA Championships does. It actually makes you make sure you don't tank a set because that could cost you getting into semi finals, which is a lot of money. We are sitting here, it's a set and two all Sabaalanca just broke back Paulini. But Paulini, there was something you was said on Twitter the other day from I think it was maybe someday somebody who writes to me quite often. How can Paulini so little beat someone like Rebakina. I'm like, dude, I'm like, have you seen her play tennis? She's so good, she doesn't have a weakness and he was just mentioning or she, I don't know who, maybe someday isn't boy or girl, but they were saying, oh, how can she do that?

00:28:22
Speaker 1: She's so little, blah blah blah.

00:28:23
Speaker 3: I'm like, there's been a lot of little small tennis s pliers that done quite well.

00:28:27
Speaker 2: But I do think for somebody who's maybe not watching with a ton of nuance, what I find really interesting and useful, which is why the Amanda Kutzers of the world, Alisa Raymonds, the Diego Schwartzman's, you know, the.

00:28:43
Speaker 3: Five Hey, sorry, Caitlin.

00:28:46
Speaker 2: What's amazing about them is just that they are incredible athletes. I would argue, pound for pound, probably better athletes than the big players. They don't have to be. Uh, the big big players don't have to be. Is incredible at movement and a lied to cover court, not to say that some of them aren't, but the little ones, without fail are, and they're incredibly useful at using their entire body to generate power. So what I like watching about Paulini is her anticipation, her ability to absorb the power of her opponent and redirect it right. And I think that to me is indicative of like how to watch them and how to appreciate them, because yeah, if you're enormous taking giant cuts, of course you can generate out of power. But if you're little, you have to meet the ball perfectly timed. Like that's what was so amazing.

00:29:29
Speaker 3: Yes, and no, you have to remember though she has unbelievably strong legs, her core is strong, her technique is fantastic. She doesn't have a bad technique in her game. Her service motion is fantastic, her forehand great. Everything is really really solid with her game, and so that's the important thing. And can she hit the ball hard? Hell yeah, she hits it with a tremendous amount of recket it speed. So if she was okay, if she was five ten, would she be even a better player. Maybe she would be sabal Anchor like because she'd be able to serve it bigger. And that's where a lot of these top players like Rebuccina, like Rebuccina, like sabal Anca even eager, like they get free points on their serve because they hit big serves. So yes, being taller does help with the serve more than anything. And so that's the thing we just saw her getting broke, get broken again, and a lot of that is just the pressure on her second serve with sabal Anca's return. So is it worse than coco second serve? No better than's Coco second serve. But you know Coco has one hundred and twenty mile an our fur serve. The winds are a lot of free points, so why because she's five ten five eleven and she can smack the shit out of the ball as well. So there are positives to being tall, and one of them is more importantly is the serf. But Lisa Raymond, my old doubles partner, could hit one hundred and twelve mile in our furs serve in the corner, and her second serve was a foot from the second from the sideline and the baseline service line. So it's how you hit the serve, and that's how you technically play, and she technically plays very well, which is why she does so well on all courts. But the heighth thing, you know, it's more about reach as well. You know, she doesn't have the reach.

00:31:06
Speaker 2: Of some of these places, but it's going to move so much better.

00:31:09
Speaker 3: But she moves fantastic and she allies great, so.

00:31:12
Speaker 2: She's got great hands. I mean, don't forget she has a gold medal in doubles.

00:31:15
Speaker 3: That's that that she does.

00:31:17
Speaker 2: Should with the man?

00:31:19
Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, sure, go ahead. I'm surprised, but yes.

00:31:23
Speaker 2: Hey, I watched a little bit of it. I watched Hugo Umbert, the frenchman.

00:31:28
Speaker 3: I loved Karen Hutchonoff.

00:31:32
Speaker 2: Yes, they had a bit of a silent yeah there.

00:31:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I agree with him, like you don't need to carry on like a pork chop.

00:31:38
Speaker 2: Yeah he was carrying on like a pup. But he's French playing in Paris. Yeah, I understand that, but that's defending it.

00:31:43
Speaker 3: It's like, have some be humble because hutch Enough is.

00:31:47
Speaker 2: Yes, hutching Off famously is a very low key guy.

00:31:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's very low key, but he's also I've seen him play against people that have been injured and he is the first to be like, yeah, I just walked to the net and shake hands and be like, man, I hope you're okay. And then and then, as he said, shake cans and then go celebrate. You're in Paris, like, have at it, go for it. But you don't need to be a douche.

00:32:06
Speaker 2: He was being a douche.

00:32:07
Speaker 3: Here's a douche.

00:32:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a little bit of a douche. Yeah, I'll agree with that.

00:32:10
Speaker 3: But I do like that we're gonna have all the France up in arms.

00:32:12
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no. I do really like the tennis and I think, I mean, I think that's the thing about the French. They're self aware, they know that they can. That's kind of their own thing is carry and they go, what do.

00:32:22
Speaker 3: You have a problem.

00:32:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, say, it's just what they're like, which is what I like about them. But I was, I was sad he didn't win the trophy obviously.

00:32:33
Speaker 3: Well he sealed the deal when he carried on like a porchtow.

00:32:36
Speaker 2: I think so. And you know, I hate giving credit to Alex Aerov, but he has made an impressive comeback he has this year, and you know, he lifted the trophy.

00:32:46
Speaker 3: He can win these tournaments. It's the Grand Slams that he can't win. Yeah, the three set, three sets, three sets, keeping that forehand under control, keeping it in the court, not you know, serving out of his mind until it really counts, like all the things.

00:33:00
Speaker 2: It's just a mental thing for him. It didn't seem like he was under pressure too much. Yeah, that's it.

00:33:04
Speaker 3: Well, and also when you're playing a lefty in your backhands your best shot, you're like licking your lips. You're like, yeah, bring it on, bring it on.

00:33:11
Speaker 2: What I said, I really do, I really do like Google and Bear and I hope he makes a I hope he don't. Don't I doubt to learn anything from this. My one take of this was Holgaruna, What did you make of his sort of I don't know. I'm starting to get worried that Holgaruna is not going to materialize a little bit.

00:33:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, he's technically a little bit off too. You know, the forehand is a little weird. It's a bit stiff, it's a strange. Yeah, it's it's a very weird technique.

00:33:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

00:33:40
Speaker 3: I don't know if he's sort of semi peaked or if he's still trying to find that mentality. But I also think just technically he can be attacked on that side, and he's a little bit all over the place. I don't know.

00:33:52
Speaker 1: I feel like he's a little bit of an occult player.

00:33:54
Speaker 3: Likes to come into net, likes to serve volley, likes to come into net. So I don't know. I think I think his type of tennis and the way he plays will get better as he gets older.

00:34:04
Speaker 2: I hope so, because I really do enjoy his type of tennis.

00:34:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:34:06
Speaker 2: I bring it up because I want him to be winning these kind of tatles. These feel like the potatoes he should win.

00:34:12
Speaker 3: But this is also commenting on what we were talking about last week, where the indoor court's fast, right, and the first thing that Alcarez said when he lost his match was the court was so fast. I didn't get here in time to practice. It was my fault, YadA YadA. It's like, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Kaitlin, like, yeah, we have to have surfaces that reward players that play quick. Yeah, I like that, the play servant volley tennis that come into the net. Yeah, fuck you guys like you. Eighty nine percent of the tour is played on a slow hard court or clay. That's right, like oh and grass, which by the way, has been slowed down to the wazoo. Yeah, all right, there's a reason why the middle of the court at Wimbledon, on the t junction of the service box is still green on final set.

00:35:00
Speaker 2: Totally brown and okayly worn down.

00:35:02
Speaker 3: I mean, because nobody comes into that and ever be like, well, no one comes into the net because the groundstrokes are so good. Now It's like, no, it's because the courts are slow. It's because if you have a fast court, you can come into the net because it is harder to adjust and get positioned to be able to hit a winning passing shot when you are getting rushed so fast courts indoors. Sorry, Carlos, you are going to have to adjust your game which to play on a fast card court. If not, you're not going to win indoors. It's the same as Raffa. Rauffa had to adjust his style of tennis on grass back in the day when the grass was a little bit quicker, starting to slow down. He started standing up on the baseline, he started flattening out his forehand, he started flattening out his surf because he knew, if you want to win Wimbledon, I have to play to the grass's speed. That's right, And he won Wimbledon. He was the type of player that adjusted his game to win on fast surfaces. He can win indoors. He never won an ATP finals. Ever, Raffia, on the adult never won the atp Fils. Yeah, wow, why.

00:36:03
Speaker 2: Caitlin, Because it was never played on anything other than an indoor a hard court, that's right. Wow. So that's the.

00:36:09
Speaker 3: Reason why you do need to have variations in speed of the court, because it it lends itself to someone playing faster hard court tennis.

00:36:17
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:36:18
Speaker 1: So when Alcarez.

00:36:19
Speaker 3: Loses that match, I'm like, good, I mean not good. I love Carlos, but you know what I'm saying, Yes.

00:36:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to see it reward different types of If.

00:36:25
Speaker 3: You're a servant bolley and you grew up as a kid, you know, hitting winners and playing and learning on a fast, hard court, which a lot of these players do, especially indoors in Europe or in the northeast of the United States. You then said, oh wait, we got to play on clay. You got to learn to play in clay. I had to learn to play and clay. I never saw a clay court until I was like seventeen years of age going to Europe, Like, how is that fair to me? Then that's thirty percent of the tours on clay when I've never seen a clay court. I mean, we had shit onto car in Australia, but it played fast and it was slippery. It didn't lend itself to playing What did you do it was? It's called ontica.

00:36:58
Speaker 2: Is that the name of the material.

00:36:59
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like hard, true, Yes, it's like green clay red, but it's like more sandy, it's like weird. So it's like I could slide like a mofo because I learned. I played a lot on that stuff as a kid, but it wasn't slow, right, so I didn't develop my patience game learning to play in Australia, right, Whereas on clay you grow up learning patience. You learn to hit the high ball, you learn to hit kick, serve the spin, all that stuff stuff because it lends itself to playing on red clay for sure.

00:37:30
Speaker 1: Right.

00:37:30
Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden you go on playing a fast hard court. You're like, what the fuck do I do here?

00:37:33
Speaker 1: Now?

00:37:33
Speaker 3: As an American you learn to play a lot on a medium to fast hardcourt. Yeah. Right, So then you go to clay on clay and you can't slide. They're like, shit, I can't slide? Why because I never learned to play and clay. So there's all these variations.

00:37:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think is amazing, and I love that. So I take your point and I agree with it, and I think for me, I read a book about the secrets of Spanish tennis. Okay, their whole philosophy is you must suffer. Yeah, that's it.

00:37:58
Speaker 3: You must suffer, which I don't like. If you're playing on a hard court that's quick. The only suffering you're going to be doing is losing a lot of tennis matches because you all of a sudden go, wait a second, I'm supposed to hit the ball there, and then I'm supposed to hit the ball there and then there and on a really long, arduous point and be disciplined.

00:38:16
Speaker 2: No. No.

00:38:16
Speaker 3: On fast, hard courts, particularly indoors, if I see a ball that's remotely short, I have got to go for it and here a winner, because if I don't, my opponent will bang bang. And on clay, that's not the case. You might have a shot you think you need to winter on. You're like, yeah, but then I'm sort of out of position, and then I have to quickly get back. I've got a slide to the There's so many more variables that go into clay.

00:38:37
Speaker 1: Now, is there a positive.

00:38:38
Speaker 3: To that or a negative?

00:38:39
Speaker 2: To that.

00:38:40
Speaker 3: I don't know, But far as I'm concerned, different speeds on that thing is why tennis is the hardest sport in the world to be great at, for sure, because you got to learn to play on all surfaces.

00:38:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you. It's like they should switch up the surface of a football game or a baseball game or basketball every like, yeah, every other game. You know, you're like, oh, no, we're going to play.

00:39:01
Speaker 3: Are you a Yankees fan by any chance?

00:39:04
Speaker 2: I'm married into a Yankee fan.

00:39:05
Speaker 3: Well, how did they feel about that fifth innings the other day?

00:39:09
Speaker 2: I think they thought it was a pretty atrocious showing by the Yankees generally.

00:39:14
Speaker 3: I said, after that game, I know we're pivoting out of tennis, but I saw that game. I said, if I as a player, or let's know, as a coach, if I'm sitting there as a coach and I.

00:39:25
Speaker 2: See that play for the listeners, what happened?

00:39:28
Speaker 3: Okay, So what happened? Well, there was a lot of mess ups in the fifth inning. First of all, Judge had a routine fly ball right in his glove, and instead of catching the ball first, he decided to semi catch it because it was so easy and look to see if the runner was running. Mate. You got to make the catch first.

00:39:45
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a classic sports don't take your out of the ball. Okay.

00:39:48
Speaker 3: And as a good friend of mine and my ex who used to play softball used to say errors or kill your sure And that started that inning of getting him on base okay, because he dropped the ball made it to second base or first base. Then later on in the same then then there was a fuck up at third base with a terrible throw to third Okay, another error. So now the base is essentially loaded. I think at this point two outs, nobody has scored. It's still five zero, but the bases are loaded. It's not looking good here for the Yankees. If something happens, well, God bless. Pitcher pitches a great game, Paul Cole, I mean he played. He just pitched such a good game, makes a great pitch. Ball rolls to Rizzo at first base, who's standing behind first base by about tip fifteen feet, gets the ball. Rizzo. Now, I've watched baseball a lot in my life. Usually the pitcher runs to first base to take that ball thrown at them, but also at the same time, the guy with the ball also has to calculate should I throw this and risk or should I run to the base. And a lot of times it's a double whammy thing where they both run to the base and then they make that this while running to the base, and neither of them ran to the base. I was like, okay, one of you has to run the base, and then Cole points at rizout and goes you run to the base, and he's like, what the fuck do you run to the It was like it was little if I was the coach of that team managing. If I was in practice and they did it in practice, I would make them run around those bases one hundred and fifty times. Sure, I would say, Okay, you don't want to run to the base. You're going to run to every base one hundred and fifty times until you get dizzy. That's how I would have to handle that. That costs him The game should have cost them the World Series.

00:41:39
Speaker 1: Probably not well.

00:41:40
Speaker 3: LA were probably going to go back to LA and win, but they should have won that game. Seriously, that would have been inning over five, zero game over.

00:41:49
Speaker 2: I have not watched a baseball game in a couple of years. After being a very intense Yankees fan.

00:41:55
Speaker 3: Oh wow, so you were a a Birds Thinkers fan.

00:41:58
Speaker 2: I was. I also really like the Dodgers and I tend to rude for them.

00:42:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually know the owners of the Dodgers. I know that's such a wanky thing to say, but I really do. The well To family are great. They're friends of mine from Chicago when I was living there. They gave a lot of money to the South Side of South Side of Chicago.

00:42:11
Speaker 2: It's actually going to bring this full circle. The reason I'm a Dodgers fan is because they do fan engagement. They have engaged their Spanish speaking fans. Yeah, to such a degree that they have the best food in baseball Mexican and they've.

00:42:24
Speaker 3: Best stated Dodger Stadium.

00:42:25
Speaker 2: Dodger Stadium is amazing. Oh, it's incredibly well landscaped. It's an incredible fan experience. And I think for me, what I've just really sort of taken away, especially in a year that tennis has exploded in popularity, viewing, Grand Slam, attendance, top line revenue, all those things that people looked for as healthy economic indicators, but we're still seeing major issues at smaller tournaments failing to attract fans tournaments going away, some new ones on the calendar, not getting a lot of support, and a lot of infighting still happening. For me, the strategy to engage fans and get casual tennis players into the sport is something that needs to happen at the highest levels, and I just don't think that's happening. I think that's why we're seeing a lack of people in the stadium as we watch Jasmin Paulini be in a position now to maybe serve.

00:43:13
Speaker 1: Out the second set.

00:43:14
Speaker 3: I know as we're sitting here, Pauolini has broken back and is up five four in the second set. One of the great things about Paolini is that she tries one hundred percent. She is the Raphael Nadal school of tennis of not giving away anything and enjoy every moment on the tennis court.

00:43:30
Speaker 2: I need you want to wrap up with any questions or.

00:43:33
Speaker 3: No, did I didn't ask for any questions today from our listeners. What we we.

00:43:39
Speaker 1: Have had plenty of to talk about.

00:43:41
Speaker 3: I'm excited for this WTA Finals to get going and get into the meat and potatoes of the tournament. After that happens and we get into the semis and finals. My prediction is Sabalanca is going to win this tournament, even though it's looking a little dodgy right now.

00:43:56
Speaker 1: We might be going into three sets.

00:43:58
Speaker 3: And I love Jasma Paolini, and let me tell you something, I would love to see her win this tournament as well.

00:44:02
Speaker 1: And is she capable of doing that? Abs?

00:44:05
Speaker 3: Absolutely. This girl can play on eddie surface. Her game lends itself to all surfaces. And she is my as you know, Caitlin, she is literally my favorite player to watch because I love watching your.

00:44:17
Speaker 2: Play very happy.

00:44:18
Speaker 3: And when we do our next pod.

00:44:20
Speaker 2: Caitlin, you will be headed to spin.

00:44:24
Speaker 3: I will be almost on my way to Spain, and we will have a female president's hope. So that's what I'm saying. Insulaula Insula. All right, guys, well listen, we appreciate you listening to us waffle on today. We were kind of all over the place, but were appreciative of your ears listening to our podcast. Can you do me a favorite? Because I forget to ask you all to do this, can you please subscribe and like and rate our podcast. We've never asked our listeners.

00:44:57
Speaker 2: But we have quite a bit of feedback on there, mostly from when we used to do this with terrible microphones. Yeah. And then also from anytime one of us, usually me upsets an entire nation.

00:45:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, you usually do.

00:45:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying not to do that so much.

00:45:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good, it's good. I mean, we we have to be nicer to all of our people that listen to us. Caitlin, we do have some people that love you that when I had only pet Goo on this podcast, they were like, where's Caitlin? Because I think we give nuances on all different things and.

00:45:30
Speaker 1: That's what I love about us.

00:45:32
Speaker 3: But I have no fear Petco will be back back here in the US because she lives part time here in Brooklyn in New York anyway.

00:45:41
Speaker 2: So will it be all three of us then for a very special.

00:45:44
Speaker 3: All three of us for a Thanksgiving episode? Maybe we should do a live one.

00:45:48
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good idea. Actually, we do have a docket on the calendar to be determined. But I have a date and I have a very special invitation for us, So stay tuned. Those of you who live in New York, those of you who live in LA will be making announcement very soon about something you can participate in and come to you and those of you who live in New York, Hey, listen. Maybe I'll listen to neither. You know, no time like the present to get.

00:46:10
Speaker 3: On a plan, and maybe I'll get a couple of the players playing in the showdown here in New York. December four, indoors.

00:46:17
Speaker 2: Seem to my Heart Radio to do a little interview. That would be great, would be great.

00:46:20
Speaker 1: All right, guys, thanks for listening to us.

00:46:22
Speaker 3: We really appreciate it, and we'll see you next week.