Episode 34: Interview with Brenda Aloff

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. Today, Lori and I are here with Brenda
Alof. How do I know Brenda? I know Brenda from
a super, super, super long time ago with a dog
that nobody really knows unless they know me
and that I love so much I can still barely talk
about this animal. It's terrible. So a thousand
years ago, Brenda was coming to give a seminar
and she's a behaviorist. And I'm like, yeah,
yeah, yeah. I don't have any behavior issues.
I'm fine. And I think I was supposed to, I don't
even know what happened, but they needed a, um,
I ended up saying, okay, fine. They talked me
into it. I'll go. Um, and they, I, they said,
um, they needed, I don't even know if people
had quote unquote working spots at a time, but
they needed a very high drive over aroused fuel
lab. And that was my Zayden. He was always like
screaming vocal high as a kite. Um, so, okay,
we'll use him. Um, so of course, since she's
coming, I'm like, oh, I'm so anal. I have to
read her book. Right. Cause you have to do that.
So I read her book and I start going, oh, shit,
like there's a lot of really good stuff in here
that I could apply not just to Zayden, but maybe
to my other dog. So it was just barely tipping
the iceberg. Turns out Zayden was not wired right.
She helped me. I mean, that's a whole nother
story for another day, but completely helped
me understand him and change his life. So that
was all good. But then like. I'm not even gonna
lie at that moment in time I still didn't really
understand what this behavior stuff had to do
with my normal dogs in competition sports like
because they don't have behavior issues they're
fine well fast forward um and unbelievably my
herculean amount of patience on Brenda's part
trying to get me and some other people I train
with to understand arousal, over arousal, why
that's not to the dog's benefit, that we want
our dogs in optimal arousal, how all this stuff
does matter, how to read a dog. My ability to
read dogs is... is a result of what brenda taught
me my understanding of arousal is what brenda
taught me my ability to do up cues down cues
is like my bastardization of things she taught
me um so many like an endless number of things
so now like Behavior is the foundation, most
integral part of dog training because the biggest
piece that most trainers are missing is how to
read the dog. Why? Why did my dog do this? I
don't know. Well, great. If you don't know, you
can't fix it. And then there's just endlessly
countless other things I've learned with our
pressure. Everything about pressure, all my pressure
games, all the pressure stuff I teach. All, all
are the result of her teaching me to understand
pressure, the effect of it on dogs, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. Hi, Brenda. Welcome. You
make me sound like really special or something.
I just wanted to also say too, that I have never
met Brenda in person. However, I work very, very
closely with one of her clients, um, who I train
with a lot and I have heard and have learned
many things through this, this friend of mine.
Um, and Brenda is coming out to my place to do
a seminar. We are all thrilled. I can't wait
to meet you in person, person. It will be. Yes.
And I actually have a few students of mine who
I've referred to, to Brenda, who she's helping,
which is great. So welcome, Brenda. Thank you.
I feel way more than welcomed. I feel like you've
set everybody up for disappointment. Oh, no,
no. Don't say that. You've always been like that.
Brenda's always extremely humble and always undervalued
what she brings to the table. I've known her
for a very, very long time. And I've always tried
to tell her, stop being like that. You know,
you have a tremendous amount of incredibly valuable
information that all. trainers in all sports,
not just, you know, across the board. Even if
you think your dog is perfectly fine, it's not
a matter of, is there something wrong with my
dog? It's just becoming a better dog trainer
and understanding dogs better. Well, I, I, just
to return at least one compliment, Petra, you're,
I, I loved you in the very beginning because
you said, you know, I'm getting the scores, but,
and very few people. can recognize that their
dog is uncomfortable, even less do they realize
that it could be attributed to them. So I love
that when trainers are understanding that even
if it looks good here, there's something that
you feel might be missing. And that missing piece
is, I think, what we're all looking for. First
of all, it's like, it's got to feel right. When,
when I'm healing with a dog, it's not how it
looks as much as how it feels to me. And I'm
a very kinesthetic learner. So that feel is what
I'm looking for. But when I connect with other
dog trainers, I feel like that's what they're
looking for too. When you've reached a certain
amount of mechanical skill, right? You have to
have a certain amount of mechanical skill set
to even be thinking. in these places to some
degree. Because that mechanical skill set is
how you initially build the connection. You know,
how do you lure a dog into a set? How do you
want the dog to stay with you? And one of the
biggest questions I asked myself for a very long
time was, how do you want to move through space
together with your dog? Like that's, to me, the
main question I was asking. When I was developing
my own philosophies and my own training, how
do I want it to feel? How do I want it to move
through space together? And, you know, how do
I, how do I minimize and correction is a very
open term here that we should probably definitely
define. You know, how do I minimize what I have
to correct because I'm good enough to not have
to go there, if that makes any sense. Yes. And
so correction to me redirects the dog to the
original behavior, period. That's all it can
do. So it's not about making the dog wrong or
making the dog feel bad. Although sometimes that
happens, you know, it's not to confuse the dog.
It must redirect the dog back to the original
behavior. So I have a little game and I just
call it the touch drive game. And if I touch
my dogs, I want them to drive back into me. This
is not right for everybody and every dog, but
it's what I like and it's what I teach my dogs.
To me, that's a correction. It looks like a game,
but it's often what I use as a correction. And
it's not to make the dog feel bad or wrong. It's
to make a balance change. It's to interrupt what
we're doing so I can maybe get the dog on a little
bit different wavelength. It's to rebalance the
dog. If I unbalance them, they have to rebalance.
It's to maybe alter the energy a little bit up
or down or to stabilize the energy in some way.
So that's the first thing that I think when I
say correction, that's what I mean. I want to
redirect the dog back to the original, the desired
behavior that I was looking for in the first
place. So how do you teach or what is the touch
drive game look like? Yeah, so my terriers taught
it to me. So for years I trained smooth box terriers
and everything I know we must give them credit
for because they were, I will never forget going
to my first obedience class of my dog at the
end of her leash, standing on her hind legs,
screaming her head off. In absolute arousal.
And when she got aroused, it would very soon
turn to aggression, to prey drive. With other
dogs, it would be like a predatory drift is what
it's called. So she wouldn't treat them like
a dog. She would treat them like a prey object.
And I at least kind of knew well enough to keep
things away from her jaws. But I walk in and
the instructor, I give her a ton of credit. I
walk in with my dog screaming at her hind legs.
I said, I want to do competition obedience. And
this woman, God bless her soul, trained Shelties.
And she said to me, she was a very droll character.
She said, well, you've chosen, what did she say?
You've chosen a breed that we usually don't do
that with. That was a really good way to question
my taste. Because they would get into very high
arousal states very, very quickly. And as I say,
the threshold from arousal to aggression was
very quick into prey drive, predatory drift,
aggression, wherever you want to go with that.
They were happy to go both places. And in learning
how to connect with that, I had to go a lot of
different places that what I would say. you know,
dog training myths certainly didn't help with,
and there are lots of them in dog training, and
also where traditional dog training and even
a lot of positive reinforcement dog training
didn't cover. You know, all those things can
give you some mechanical skills, but there's
the science of training and there's the art of
training. And once you've got the science down,
You need to go to the art to find the rest of
the answers because the science can answer almost
everything, but it can't answer the way we feel
it. Right. You can have the best mechanical skills
in the world and still not love the feel you've
got with what's happening in the training. And
I guess the place that I always think about is
a psychological term that I. read somewhere but
I loved it and it was called power sharing without
hierarchy and I'm like that's what I want I want
it to feel like that now can you really achieve
that with your an animal you're training I don't
really think so because you have to lead the
dance right like you you sign the check if you're
going to enter a show. You sign the check. You're
the one that determines what you train the dog
to do, all those things. So you have to be the
guidance in those things. But once the mechanical
skills are completed, how does it feel to move
through space with your dog? What does that feel
like? How does that look? So I have a lot of
background in dressage and horse training as
well. In dressage, what we actually say is we
don't want to see the rider. We want to be looking
at the horse and we want to see the horse and
we want to see that horse's expression without
the expression being dampened so much by precise
mechanical skills that there's nothing left of
the animal by making any sense. Totally. Yeah.
And so those, you know, what I call a dutiful
performance is not okay for me. You can, you
can win tournaments with that. You can do all
kinds of things with that. But I once got on,
someone had a Grand Prix horse and I got on the
Grand Prix horse. I thought this is going to
be amazing. And it was horrible. The horse felt
really heavy in my hand. I mean, this could have
been my riding too, but it's how the horse looked
with everybody else as well. But the horse was
really heavy, like 20 minutes. And I'm like,
I just want to off. like this is too much work
and um i worked for many years with a trainer
named bettina drummond and she was an absolute
total genius with horses and if you rode a horse
that bettina had trained i kid you not it felt
like you sat there and you thought it and the
horse did it and i finally said that's what power
sharing without hierarchy feels like it feels
like you're in such a cord that There are no
corrections have to be made because you're both
thinking the same thought. I know that gets a
little crystal wavy, but that's the feel I think
we're all looking for is that when we say, you
know, when my body looks like heel, I want my
dogs to be right there going, yeah, let's do
that. Because that's when it feels good. We can
do a lot of things to coerce or to force. And
I'm not above that. Please don't get me wrong.
I'm not above saying, dude, it's going down right
here, right now. Because that's part of that
relationship too, right? I don't mean that you
get rude or anything, but there's got to be a
feedback system. yeah and especially with different
dogs and different personalities right like some
dogs can be really tough or they can challenge
you they can I mean that's reality like you know
um like I'll I'll use my my one student again
just because I think because she's training a
terrier and like the reality is she's like I've
come to accept that no matter what I do sometimes
He's just going to leave me and go sniff that
thing in the corner. And then I'm going to go
over there and say, dude, stop that and get back
here. Right. Like, and no, she trains like mostly
positive. Like this dog works. It's, it's unbelievable.
It's really beautiful. But like, he'll be. In
the middle. I laugh because I have dogs like
this where he's like doing the most gorgeous
healing. There's an about turn. He's like, oh,
what's over there? What? You little shit. Right.
But like that's in him. Right. And not all dogs
are like that. No, some dogs are very compliant.
But some dogs have that element of, hey. At the
end of the day, I'm bred a certain way and I
have a certain personality. And I am like a kid
that's going to scream in the grocery store because
I want that chocolate bar at the checkout. And
you're telling me I can't have it? What are you,
nuts? Yeah. Well, conflict resolution is one
of the first things you kind of want to have
your head wrapped around because the Terriers
are not like the other children. Carriers and
hounds are not like the other children. There's
something totally different going on there. See,
this is good. I've got students with these dogs.
This is great. We bred for it. We selectively
bred for it. So, you know, I do tend to remind
myself and those students, well, you knew that
was a snake when you picked it up. So there you
go. Yeah. So then it's like, you know, how you
build that connection and how you move through
space together. I mean, I'm thinking about that
all the time. I'm probably thinking about it
obsessively. And when you think about something
obsessively, it's really easy to take it too
seriously. And it's really easy to get naggy
about it, right? Yeah, I think that's one of
the things that I'm working with my students
is, you know, how do I keep their head in the
right place? And this is a conversation I just
had. I do a coaching call for my online students.
And we just had like a two and a half hour conversation
about clinical detachment and all of the things
that clinical detachment involves and how it
affects your training. Because I don't think
you can separate the animal's emotional state,
your emotional state, and the training. It's
like nature versus nurture. It's so meshed together
that you have to always be considering it. And,
you know, I really feel like riding horses is
where I learned so much of this stuff. Because
my first pony dusted my ass every day. Every
single day. My eight year old body hit the ground
every day. And that's what I thought your dog
and your cat were for is to walk home with you.
Take my pony. The neighbor had a big field and
I could ride it. I'd ride my pony down the road
and I'd go into the big field and he would put
up with me until he was sick of me. And then
he would dump me on the ground or, you know,
hang me in a tree or something. And I had a Siamese
cat at the time and it always went with me and
he would walk home with me and the cat would
walk home. So as a child, I thought, you know,
the pony is for riding and your companion animals
are to walk home with. But I think that, well,
first of all, I was a very stupid child because
it just pissed me off and made me want to get
back on instead of saying that pony probably
doesn't want you on it at all. But, you know,
sometimes that's where the connection starts.
Right? Well, and then you're, I think the reason
you got back on is probably because I'm the same
way. And I know Lori's the same way. It's because
you want to crack the code, right? There's got
to be an answer here somewhere. And like, you
can throw me off 800 times and I'm going to,
I'm going for 801. Cause I'm like sooner or later,
if it's the last thing I do. Well, I love the
way you justified my stupidity. That makes me
feel a lot better. But I think, you know, when
you start like that with an animal and sometimes
that's how it feels like you start, there's still
a connection to be made there. Because I took
that pony into the show ring. You know, I got
to 4 -H club. I took that pony to the show ring.
Won everything with him. Not at first. It was
really ugly at first. He would go in the ring
and run away with me and Buck. And I mean, all
the mothers were saying, stay away from that
little girl on the spotted pony. But I think
it's, it's not just persistence. You know, you
can't just get back on. You gotta keep thinking
about why, why that connection looked like that
at that moment. Right. And. So one of the books
I read about learning and learning theory was
really good. And this woman is I love the way
she talked about acquisition in particular, because
especially so I'll just offend everybody here.
The obedience people are too tough about this
and the agility people are not in the same ballpark
at all, which they should be, which is, you know,
how you. How you forge a connection that has
mutual respect and isn't just built on prey drive.
Because I think prey drive is a place where people
often go to make that connection. And I'm not
averse to that because the terriers, I often
thought, I'm like, the only way I'm going to
have their attention is if I could morph into
a mouse and then I would have their attention.
Right up until the time they shook me and broke
my neck, which would give me about 10 seconds.
But there was a point in time when I would have
taken that. If I could get 10 seconds, I'd be
so happy. And so where, you know, where do you,
where is that meeting in the middle? And once
again, it comes down to me to perfecting your
mechanical skills so that you can put those on
autopilot so you can read the dog. mm -hmm and
even then it's so complicated right because um
because this is just timely because there have
been a couple episodes in the row where laurie
and i talked about ever and zesty right and so
from the outside people can be like oh my god
what's wrong with you the dogs are you know both
so accomplished blah blah blah whatever whatever
but it's exactly what you said And there are
different dogs with different issues. Right.
But it's exactly what you said at the beginning.
Like when I go in the ring with Zaina right now,
Zaina is who she is. But like she is reading
me like a book. I even in training, I barely
talk at all in the ring. I whisper if I have
to say anything, I whisper very quietly to her.
And but mostly I'm silent. um she can read my
thoughts through my eyes right she can read my
body language she can read like everything and
she is reading it because she's actively engaged
with me and that's what it feels like like we're
together now you know granted sometimes the scale
tilts a little bit because that's who she is
and she's like I'll take over for a second or
two but I'll take that any day right yeah versus
like um zest who tends a fair amount of time
tends to score a little higher than her on paper
has accomplished way more not more than her right
like on paper or you look at him in the ring
he's very precise he's very accurate but to this
day i'm missing something because I feel like
I'm a lot of times, like I'm dragging him, like
we're not in sync. Like he, you know, and Lori
can speak to what she feels with ever, but like
the whole point of that is like finding which
piece is the missing piece. Is it that he's stressy?
Is it pressure he perceives from me? Is it that
he's not paying attention? Is it this? Is it
that like that? Is the super tricky, complicated
piece. And is it maybe more than one thing going
on, right? Or more than one relationship issue
or something in the training. And that I think
is the piece. And Lori, you can comment on that
for yourself. Like that I find is the most challenging.
I think obviously not just for me, but I think
for all dog trainers. Yeah, I agree. It's finding
like I always I always say refer to as this finding
that sweet spot, you know. And, you know, like
this, I I've been working through similar issues
as Petra is with Zesty with Ever. And, you know.
I always want to like, be like, you know, she's,
the dog is so, both the dogs, Esty and Everett,
like they're, like we talked about mechanical
skills. The dogs are so trained with mechanical
skills. Like they're so highly trained, but it's
that missing piece of what, like we want that
feeling in the ring. like I always say like ever
worries like she I think I cause a lot of pressure
because I get intense I'm a big personality I
am a lot of person And I know like even in our
pet life, like in our household, like I like
if I'm talking and I'm getting exuberant and
I might sound like intense and maybe angry, like
she slinks out of the room. Like she's like,
oh, my God. So I then feel like I always have
to be so careful with her when I'm training her,
which then becomes a problem because like then
I'm like, am I enabling her? Because yes. Yeah.
Because at the end of the day, then when it comes,
push comes to shove, like it's fucking hard.
Like it's hard what we do. And I can train her
to the ninth degree. Right. But when we're under
the pressure in the spotlight and all the factors
come in, like. that we're nervous to some degree.
There's a competitive edge flowing through my
blood. You know, like I can't help that. Then
she's like, you need to put it in the closet
when you're training. What? But you need to put
that in the closet when you're training. It's
hard, Brenda. Like that's where I, but like this
weekend I went to, we went to the same trial
this weekend, Patriot and I, and we were like,
we've been just. We've been playing around with
so many new things. And all I cared about was
just like going through just step by step, being
who I need to be forever, wanting her to bring
herself to the table as like a 50 -50 partnership.
Like that's what I wanted. And some of like I
got some great things. I got some really positive
outcomes from doing that. actually led to errors
in the ring because then like criteria slipped
and she made mistakes because she actually went
like her arousal went up like so it's it's just
finding that fucking happy well it's a line it's
a it's thin for skating on because we don't just
want the dutiful performance we want the energy
to match and That's where I struggle because
when I want, when I can get the energy to match,
then she like, we're not accurate, you know,
or. When I'm saying energy matching, I'm talking
about something super specific, not just I want
the dog high to work at. Patriot and I have worked
together just enough. I like a pretty hot dog
and so does she, and I suspect you do the same.
Like I like. What did Bettina used to say all
the time? She'd say, you know, today, every day,
I want to ride right on the edge of disaster.
Now, A, that takes a certain animal. I agree.
Not all animals want to ride on the edge of disaster.
So you need that. And then if you're going to
ride there, you better have the skill set that.
helps you do what i would call energy matching
so for me energy matching is if i take my attitude
down a little bit the dog should too and if i
take my attitude up they should follow they shouldn't
override me they shouldn't be under me they should
match me and i would say My whole training system,
I mean, it's built around a lot of different
concepts, but that's a very basic one because
you're never going to get the feel you want if
you can't meet there. And so I have, oh, I don't
know, entire series of exercises that are just
about teaching the dog how to match energy with
you. And it's a process. It takes about a year.
It takes a good 12 months, I'd say. To really
get to that point where you can ride on the edge
of disaster without stepping over the edge. And
that development, it occurs, I have exercises
for it, but I think one of the biggest mistakes
to do with my training system specifically is
that You can't just say, I'm going to go do this
exercise. That's not how it works. When I show
people an exercise, it's not an exercise or a
game. It's a way of life now. I would tell you
that if I got up from my chair and I walked into
the kitchen, my two dogs would try to heal. They
would fight for it. I can run them into a wall.
I can run them into a chair because I'm just
going to the kitchen, right? And I look down
and I'm like, there they are. They're fighting
to heal. Why? Why would they do that? My dogs
have always been like that. I had to be careful
with the terriers because they would get a little
too competitive. I'm like, you guys don't need
to fight with each other over heel position.
Just kind of find the space around me. But how
do you, that comes back to how do you want to
move through space together? How do you want
that to feel? How do you want it to look? And
when we're doing competition work, it's not just
how we feel or how we like to look. We have certain
technical parameters that we have to meet. That's
the harder piece in some way. It's the totally
easiest piece and it's the hardest piece to marry
up with everything else in a way. So that how
we build that connection, how we match that energy
and that I start very, very simply. I have people
bring me their utility dogs. They've got their
second or third arch. And if I tell them to do
a simple energy matching exercise, a lot of times
they can't do it. Can you give us an example
just of one just so people can kind of visualize?
So I start people on a circle. Remember, I'm
a dress size rider. All we do are circles of
all sizes. We all, we're just, we're just turning
in small tight circles all the time. So I start
people on a circle. It's about 20, 20 feet in
diameter, I would say. My, it fits in my 40 foot
buildings, probably about 30, about, I don't
know, five or six feet from each wall. And the
first thing you would need to be able to do on
that circle is walk in slow. How many people
can walk their dogs in slow like that? It's amazing.
The dogs who cannot do slow because of, And for
me, that's a biomechanical problem. If your dog
can't do slow without forging or bumping you
or, you know, not being straight, that's a biomechanical
issue that you have not addressed. That's a motor
pattern issue. So once the dog can do that, so
let's say the dog knows how to heal. So can I
go in slow? And the first thing I have to be
able to do is be in my circle. Be in the building,
turn the dog loose and say, do whatever you want.
Put my hand up in heel position and go to the
circle and start walking in slow. And the dog
should join me. If they don't join you right
away, you've already, in my eyes, got a problem.
And that's the first issue you need to address.
The dog must volunteer to be with you. You can
only, learning theory says this, you can only
reinforce voluntary behavior. And we have changed
that into something entirely. Like we've bastardized
Skinner's work to the point where I'm pretty
sure he wouldn't recognize it. Not that I'm any
expert, but what does that really mean? That
means if the dog offers the behavior and you
reinforce it, there's a different kind of mileage,
a different neural network that gets burned than
when you lure and feed or you manufacture and
feed. Now, there are lots of things we do with
the dog that we have to manufacture. They would
never come up with it and offer it, right? So
we do our manufacturing repetitions and then
we see if the dog offers it. So that's the first
thing. If I go to that circle, the dog should
want to follow me and be with me. Now, have I
done exercises to prepare for that? Well, hell
yes. I do an exercise I call following. I literally
look at the dog, look at a point, go there. If
the dog follows me, I feed him. It's that simple.
I teach them to want to be with me. And when
they volunteer it, I am extra happy. And after
a while, if they don't volunteer it, I would
say, hey, why aren't you volunteering it? And
when they do volunteer it, I reinforce it. And
then I stop reinforcing unoffered responses.
Does that, am I making sense there? Am I? Yeah.
Am I? No, I think the offering. The offering
is so powerful because something, and I, I'm
pretty sure this is a problem I'm having with
Zesty, but it's a problem with students a lot
where, you know, it's like, click, click, click
feed, click feed, click feed, click. So fast.
And it's like the dogs never even like making
a conscious decision. They're not thinking. Yeah.
You got to get into a place where they're participating.
If they don't have any skin in the game and you're
cheerleading, babysitting and correcting constantly,
you got a problem and you can get a lot of titles
with that problem. Well, it's avoidance of being
wrong. A lot of times they're so or like. that's
the other it's like oh my god he made a mistake
it's all going to shit what do i do how do i
fix it i'm like oh my god give him a second let
him try like give him a minute to breathe you
know and i do like a lot of times try to get
my students like they're having a problem with
behavior pull that piece out get the dog to offer
it right because offering is more powerful but
that whole Like even shaping has become so bastardized
that because shaping really should be solving
the problem. And it's no longer about solving
the problem. It's about throwing the cookie so
many times that the dog is never wrong. The dog
gets closer and closer to approximating the right
thing. And then if you don't let them be wrong
and figure out how to do it. You are taking away
from them that satisfaction that I still feel
from falling off my pony every day for a year
and then succeeding. Right. We shouldn't take
that away from them. That is a very powerful
reinforcer. So, oh, I started a sentence before
and didn't finish it. This is so common with
me. But basically an acquisition, it should look
like this. And this is the place where people
start to go wrong right off the bat. Because
they're told traditional training kind of says,
don't let them get it wrong because we're going
to pattern train it. And if we let the pattern
ever be wrong, then that could get in the pattern.
Yeah. That's fraught with danger in and of itself.
And there's a place for that idea. But it's not
an acquisition. An acquisition, it should look
like try, fail, try again. fail better. I love
the way that particular author, I cannot remember
her name, but the book is called Brain Training
for Riders. And it is fabulous talking about
acquisition like that. Like, Patri, you just
said it. You have to give your students permission
to let the dog be wrong. If they're never wrong,
the neural network to get out of trouble or make
the right choice cannot be formed correctly.
Yeah. So what happens with, um, a dog that is
really, really soft and error averse, like incorrect,
like zeal soft, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not
specifically referring to him in this example,
but you understand how soft it was. Um, and so
now, and let's say maybe you had a history of
you helped the dog out. Like now, how do you
get the dog out of that? Right. So that because
they don't have that skill set, they're like,
oh, shit, I'm wrong. My world is coming to an
end. And then they tend to internally driven,
right? Not externally driven by the trainer,
internally driven. The dog's like, I'm going
to die. Yeah. So, I mean, we could do 20 million
conversations on just the difference between
intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Right. But.
In that particular case, so to me, whether the
dog goes up over the top or shuts down or gets
sullen, you know, anywhere in between those two
extremes, it's all arousal. So internally, chemically,
about the same thing is happening. The external
manifestation might look different to us, but
that's an arousal issue. So for me, if the dog
is in certain... states of arousal it is not
a teaching moment doesn't matter how good of
a teacher you are there is it's just it's not
are those the chimes on your porch they're beautiful
yeah it's my um yeah just when i'm speaking too
i feel so special so um it's champ it's a dog
that passed away so he comes and visits I love
it that he visited us. That's wonderful. So,
excuse me, I need to say, I just put one of my
horses to sleep the first weekend. Oh, God. Every
time everybody's grieving about anything, it's
like I have to. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know.
It's okay. It's, it's, it's all right. He, he
lived a long, happy life. I just, you know, we
just get to miss them forever after they're gone.
Like we don't, we don't ever stop. People are
like, well, I'll get over this. And I'm like,
well, you won't. So. Right. Stop with that idea.
At any rate, I don't even know where I was. Where
was I? Extrinsic, extrinsic arousal. It's an
arousal issue, which is not a good time to teach
them anything. Yes, there you go. So the good,
good repetition of it. So the idea is how do
I affect the arousal? I don't even think about
behavior there. And a lot of this comes from
my dressage work with work with horses. Interestingly
enough, there's a subset, but the people I worked
with. would never say the horse had a behavior
issue. They would say that they wouldn't put
it like this, but the reinforcement contingencies
were off. Or they would talk about it in terms
of biomechanics. And even arousal. We like to
act like a behavior, arousal, like those are
things that are not physiological. But the fact
of the matter is they're all physiological. So
if my dog is in a state of arousal and cannot
energy match me, that's a physiological problem.
The first place I go with those things would
be body work. I have my own dumped down body
work that is. Nothing special, but easy to teach,
even to novice handlers with puppies. And I do
certain kinds of body work with the dog until
it has effect on the central nervous system quickly.
So I can aid in the dog's recovery. Petra, that's
right up your alley because with all your physical
therapy work, you've shown me a lot of stuff
about physical therapy that I have used and used
and used, and it's just right on the money. And
I've used it not for physical therapy, but to
straighten a dog biomechanically or to... to
affect their emotional state. So we have to have
a way to affect the emotional state. The problem
with cookies and prey drive is they often take
arousal the wrong direction, or they can take
arousal in an unpredictable direction. And I
need something that's predictable. I need to
be able to press a button and get a reaction
that I can count on, right? So let me just jump
in for a second for people listening. Yes, jump
right in. I kind of know what you're doing, but
you're basically doing a tactile intervention,
meaning something that if you teach the dog,
that means change your emotional state or change
your arousal in this moment, right? Would that
be a correct statement? Yes. And there are two
things that I think are important there. One
is this isn't an emotional report card, so I
don't tell them good, bad, or indifferent. Their
emotional state is their emotional state. It
is whatever it is. I'm going to see if I can
alter it and take them into a place that would
be more, what do I want to say, productive at
that moment. And it's classical conditioning.
is what it is I'm going to associate a certain
touch so it's not like teaching a cue system
this is not a cue system it's it's kind of outside
that belly wet maybe technically it is a cue
system how I'm not smart enough to know the difference
I only know what works I think it is a cue except
that's not a good word because if you say cue
then people think they must click and treat it
Right. Yeah. And that's not headed at all. Right.
When I teach, I call it a common cue. Maybe I
shouldn't, but when I teach that it's never associated
with a cookie, it's never clicked or marked.
I don't even want you to say usually. good the
information is coming from my hand and my energy
and my breathing and my hand and my energy and
my breathing on your body which needs to be assessed
every dog is different where does it work for
my this dog this is my bastardized version of
it that um so so that gives the dog information
and the dog goes understands and when the dog
regulates to where i want it i remove the tactile
information so dogs you release it yeah high
pressure release yeah it's basic basic negative
reinforcement is what it is yeah so dogs really
high release it when you get the reaction you
want Correct. Dog's really high. I apply the,
what I call my, whatever, let's not name it.
I apply tactile pressure with my hand, deep pressure,
because that tends to be calming. And then when
I feel, as soon as I feel my dog lower their
arousal, become more calm or become more stable,
I release it. That information says, there you
go. Now you're good. So, so it, that's where
it's different from a cue for a behavior where
I say sit, click feed, down, click feed. I don't
do that. I'm giving the dog info. It also provides
by default, like maybe not. initial primary goal,
but a very strong connection. Right. And dogs
are not really verbal. So I feel like this is
information they understand, like on their level.
And they're like, oh, thanks. Finally. Right.
Like touches the universal language. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. I think. Yes. I do think just to interrupt
for a second. Maybe, Patri, you can give an example
of like where you would use that in like, just
say like in the ring. Right. Just so people who
have have never. Yeah, I develop it outside the
ring. Right. So let's say I developed in daily
life and you need to do it 20 to 30 times a day
until it's you can see the reaction happening
quicker. Yep. Go ahead. Sorry. No, don't be sorry.
So basically, like. um let's say well a classical
example that's pretty practical because many
people do this um they talk they give the dog
a reward event a tug and they get the dog very
over aroused right yeah i'm not even going to
go down the road should you even do that or not
whatever so my dog is now like right so now i
say to my dog get into heel position we're going
to heal Well, in that moment, my dog can't heal.
I mean, they could. It would be a mess, right?
Yeah. So in that moment, I on said dog now depends
with Zaina. I started on her chest and then moved
the cue. I faded the cue more and more with zest.
He always liked if I just held his head tightly
against my body or if I did such deep. pressure
pulling, like you can't really say petting because
it wasn't, it was like almost pulling the skin
off his head. Right. And so I would do that until
I see his eyes get clear, his breathing changes
a little bit. He just relaxes. Now I am not doing
it until he's comatose. I'm doing it until I
see him come to where I want him in the middle,
like in optimal arousal, in that window where
they're not overly aroused or not under aroused
or exactly where I need to be. Then I stop. I
always call that relative relaxation because
it's relative to a point you choose. perfect
or they're yes so it's one right yes because
sometimes in some of my classes that people go
too far i'm like no no that's not what we're
after so they can't work comatose right in the
middle so um what i also discovered with zeal
kind of by accident maybe or i don't even know
who knows it was such a convoluted thing is So
I called it a calm cue, but it wasn't really
just a calm cue. It was more of, and put the
dog big, not just state of arousal, but also
Brenda, like you mentioned emotion. So when Zazio
will get nervous in the ring, you would, your
instinct is bring his arousal up. He needs more
energy. No, that would make him anxious. He would
get higher, but it would pressure. The pressure
creates arousal in the wrong. It doesn't help
the arousal. OK, so then, yeah, then he would
almost be anxious and super jittery. So then
I applied that same cue. Right. And he like basically
in my head, I would look at him, apply the cue
and say, you're fine. Right. Because now I'm
dealing with emotion. Yes, it's connected to
arousal. But that's what in my mind I'm addressing.
And that moment is the emotion. You're fine.
I'm sorry. I just want to point something out
because you said something really, really important,
which is in your mind. Like you got your brain
around it and then you asked him to join you.
I really feel like that. I don't believe dogs
read our mind. Sorry, just not there. But biomechanically
or internally, your central nervous system changes.
You can change your mind with how you handle
yourself physically, right? So, yeah. So he would
read that and then he would steady up. Yeah.
Right? So that's one way I used it. With a dog
like Zaina, right? She must be bordering on the
edge of disaster because it's the only way I
can get her to work. Right. It's the only way
I can get her to care enough to push whatever,
which means I'm right on the edge. So in the
ring, I set her up. Right. And I go, we're going
to do this exercise. And I see her start to throw
herself into a little over arousal. Immediately,
I touch the side of her head. I've got it down
to two fingers, literally two fingers on the
head. And I look and I look at her with this
look like, don't do it because she's she's she's
she's throwing herself there. She happens to
think the. disaster is a super fun place to be
like she loves disaster she loves being in the
midst of disaster like she thinks life should
be full of disaster right yeah so i'm looking
of chaos they look to stimulate themselves to
exactly so i look at her and i go don't effing
do it don't fucking do it Right. And she goes
she doesn't get the least bit upset. She goes,
OK. And she you could see her visibly like, yeah,
rein it all in and go, oh, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to hold it together. Right. So now
those are polar opposites, varying degrees. But
and you can use it in a million different places
in a million different ways. The concept being
I am communicating to you in a queue that now
I tell people this all the time. I am using these
cues in training constantly, like moment by moment
by moment, day after day, week after week, month
after month, decade after decade. So that's where
the communication is so well established that
when I use it in the ring, it works because it's
not like, oh, this is an emergency, use only
in case of emergency. You can't wait until a
dog is in arousal to fix it. It's like if you
live in, well, you guys, New York, New Jersey,
Connecticut, the East Coast, whatever, me in
Michigan, you don't wait till January to put
the furnace in. Right. Like you better have the
furnace where the wood cut or whatever. You better
have that ready in September. Yeah. And it's
the same thing is why I tell people this is not
an exercise you do. This is daily life. You need
to do this. All day, every day, all the time.
As you say, decade after decade. It's how the
dog gets enough repetition so that the response
you produce is timely. Because the first time
you take a really aroused dog down to a level
that it's helpful, relative relaxation. Yeah,
it takes you 20, 30 minutes. Because if you get
a big adrenaline dump, the first phase of that.
trying to return to baseline is about 15 to 20
minutes to take a total return to baseline is
72 hours wow wow that's why when people start
to get their dogs over aroused i'm like why are
you playing with that fire like that like don't
you know that's gonna burn the forest down well
that's the thing you know i think that's a big
problem because i think a lot of people See,
dogs who are over aroused, they look, we talked
about this, they look sexy and flashy and fat.
And that's what they think is where the dog should
be optimally working at. But they're mistaken
because just what we talked about. Yeah, well,
and you've got it. You can work a lot of dogs
there. But, A, we talked a little bit about the
genetics. But even at that. You can work a lot
of dogs very high, but you can't do it with no
preparation because it's really easy to put a
dog into some form of arousal, whether that looks
like over the top or shut down. It's all the
same thing. You can put them there pretty easily,
but recovering from that is a physiological process
and that takes practice. Right. Yeah. So like
it gets, it's gotten to the point now where I
could literally, like if I take Zaina and I have
videos of this, like in like literally moment,
second, I can go give her a quick cue. You can
visibly see her start to go up. I give her a
second cue. You can visibly see her start to
bring her set arousal back. It's immediate. It
happens immediately in response and she can adjust
it super quickly. And it's predictable. It's
yes. And the most fascinating thing, I don't
know if you've witnessed this, but I have seen
this across multiple dogs now. So I know it's
not a fluke. Right. Is my dogs have learned or
learn at some point. to manage their own arousal
in very specific situations. So Zeal used to,
this was in the old days when we did a figure
eight with two humans and a third and the judge,
right? And he hated it. So he would get excited
after his exercise, right? Like I go, good boy,
that was really good. We'd set up for the...
figure eight and I'd go eight figure eight 100
% of the time he would do a huge yawn not it
was not stress per se because it he was adjusting
his arousal down and then he'd look at me yawn
slip licking a lot of the things that people
talk about in dog body language say oh that's
all stress stress has a big continuum there's
you stress there's distress right you know, good
stress, bad stress, so to speak, in layman's
terms. But yes, if you do your body work, if
you do your energy matching, that's the whole
point, is that the dogs can learn how to use
that themselves to self -soothe and put themselves
in the appropriate place. That's where cooperation
changes in a huge way. that's when the dog starts
to feel much much much more cooperative because
their energy their emotional state is not in
your way yeah it's really it's really well that
so you know just we should take a quick side
trip on that because like that's so important
what you said right about the yawning like because
so for example um Zaina will do a snapping behavior.
Snap, snap. When I walk, if I walk away on signals
and as I'm walking away, I hear snap, snap. I'm
like, thank God. Cause I know 100 % she's dialed
in at that moment in time. If I don't hear the
snap, snap, I'm like, oh shit. Like it could
go either way. It's dicey, right? Because she's
doing it like to adjust her arousal and to go,
you must, she's like, I don't know, in my mind,
she's saying you must focus. It's a physical
way. It's like, you know how therapists will
teach you to like put a rubber band and snap
your wrist if you feel anxious or something.
I mean, there's a whole classical conditioning
that goes with that. But yeah, for the dogs,
they have these physical mannerisms that they
use to start to place themselves. Where they
know they, as you say, that optimal state, I
call it a state of readiness for whatever we're
doing. Right. Yeah. So that everything they're
reading, like when all those behaviors are not
always one thing. Right. Like, so, yes, my dog
could yawn and be stressed, but my dog could
also yawn. Like, so the reason I know that for
zeal, it wasn't stress was because I knew that
when that judge said forward, if I didn't bolt.
bolt out of heel position he was going to be
gone so he was so ready in that moment right
that he was like forward and i was like go like
i used to just say to myself like go if he was
stressed and the judge said forward i would have
been like and prayed to God he came with me right
yeah I call that idea meet the dog where they
are right you often have to meet the dog where
they are right now and adjust from there when
you're talking about arousal and emotional states
and how to manage them and in dressage we actually
so if you if you were around a horse trained
by Bettina the first thing you would know is
She trained them kind of feral, which made them
not for beginners. But what it did was she didn't
mess with their energy or their reflexes when
they were young. They couldn't hurt you. Like,
there were lines. But when she did the break
-in on my Lusitano Gilding and I first started
riding him, it was terrifying. because he wasn't
used to having any of his energy contained. He
was used to you just like going with that. Well,
I am not a racehorse jockey. So that's not how
I was used to riding. And there was an adjustment
period where actually I would stand on the mounting
block, kind of pissing my pants a little bit,
getting up. But what that does is, I mean, in
my dog training, what I would say to people is,
You know, stop squishing the energy. You can't
just let it lure around either, like totally
out of control, like the terriers would have
just killed everything in sight if that was the
case. But you can be the eye of the storm. You
know, that's one of the ways I describe it. And
the other way is take that energy they're bringing
to you and channel it. And then my, my. really
regular students and so on, and I often get into
conversations about what they have dubbed clean
energy versus dirty energy. And the energy that
we can use is clean energy. Dirty energy is tinged
with something. Distraction, anxiety, status,
something. Something's going on there with that.
But the energy doesn't feel totally usable to
you. So when they take their energy away, like
if they drop out from under you and get kind
of sullen and shut down, that is a real, people
wouldn't think about it like this. I do, because
neurobiologically, that's arousal. It's just
how it looks that kind of gets people. thinking
it's something else i think so would you do the
same thing there like a tactile intervention
you you bet i don't know how else to affect that
kind of arousal first i have to physiologically
adjust the dog so that they can hear what i'm
saying so what about you would go through or
whatever i mean i know what my answer is but
what about dogs that resist that tactile for
lack of a Right, because their dogs are going
to, for various reasons. Yeah, because it's not
their idea. There's a lot going on in a relationship
where that's occurring, but it happens to all
of us. Everybody's going to meet resistance in
a dog. Well, what is resistance? Resistance is
physical resistance shows up because there's
a mental resistance occurring. I truly believe
that. So I reduce the physical resistance to
reduce the mental resistance. So body work. And
if the dog says, I don't want body work right
now. I'm like, well, kind of sucks to be you
at this moment. I work it. I work it until it
works. Yeah. So. Lori, you don't have to do this
if you don't want. I just think that ever is
a really good example because. Um, because she
was like zeal and zeal, you know, like, okay,
I have a dog that's over aroused. I need to lower
the dog's arousal. I have a dog that's low arousal.
I need to increase it. What happens when I have
a dog that one minute it's arousals going up,
then I'm like, Oh God, Lori, you know what I'm
saying? Cause like that, like zeal, like she's
more like. moment by moment, it's one thing,
then it's the other, then it's the other. And
then you're scrambling, like, well, now what
do I do? Now what do I do? Now what do I do?
Do you want to, like, I mean, you don't have
to, but. Well, that's really exactly what it
is. You know, one second she's sitting there
looking like she wants to die. That's the best
way I can describe it for everybody to understand.
that is that low arousal brenda right that you're
referring she looks like she is going to die
like she's like panting literally she's like
swallowing like she's got caught in her like
i feel so bad for this dog but then the next
minute like and i mean the thing is is that This
is where like I can sort of manufacture the arousal
a little bit by like just my kind of some things
I can do in the in like a fleeting second. I
can bring her up, but it goes way up like, you
know, like I'll get if I can bring her up with
whatever. Like a silent cue, like whether it's
like just this ice, the staring game. I hold
my breath. You know, she thinks that's super
fun. But then now I'm getting barking in the
ring. Right. Because you're never regulating
her arousal there. You're just jacking it around.
You're not. Right. And it's not finding homeostasis.
Every place where I don't have an energy match,
I have to ask myself, first of all, I taught
the dog how to match my energy. That's the first
place that I would think about. Body work is
one of the first places I would go here because
of that. And the matching energy thing, Brenda,
I think what happens is. When we see the dogs
get sucky, that's the term I'll use. Yes, because
it's true. We panic. We do the work. Yep. Like
we are the circus act in the moment. We hit the
panic button and we act like jackasses in whatever
way we can. It doesn't feel good like that. arousal
doesn't feel good but when she comes up and she's
a bouncing barking lunatic that feels better
but it does feel better but it's still not correct
right because when the dog when the dog is too
high they are forward thinking in that moment
that's what we would call it in ragging at least
they're forward thinking But when they go low,
they actually remove their energy from us. When
they're too high, they use their energy against
us. When they're too low, they actually just
take it away. And that does make us feel pretty
bereft in that moment because where the hell
do you go with that? They just said, I'm withdrawing.
I'm dropping out. Yes. And dropping out makes
us panic in vivid ways. Yes. But we can't provide
then reinforcement contingencies for over the
top or dropping out. It's easier if you can think
of it as it's all the same thing. Whether they're
up or dropped out, it's all the same thing. So
physiologically. Some of the same things can
work. So that's why I would say it doesn't matter
if they go up too high or down too low. I'm going
to start with body work. But in my daily work,
I have to ask myself, why would they go there?
And probably it's because there's a reinforcement
contingency present. So now we have two issues,
right? We have a physiological issue and we have
a reinforcement issue because we haven't. We
haven't made it clear to the dog that there's
a different place to be. So I guess my first
part of it is the body work helps the dog find
homeostasis somewhere. Homeostasis is a state
of balance. It's all bodies want to be in homeostasis.
We might want to be in a higher energy or lower
energy, but we don't want it too high or too
low, right? We want it the Goldilocks place.
Yeah, that sweet spot. Sweet spot. And when we
take a dog too high or too low without being
able to create a place of homeostasis, then that's
how it gets out of control. And that's when we
tend to start doing really crazy shit. Because
now when the dog goes low and we try to cheer
them up. Some dogs now go lower because they're
like, oh, you liked it when I went low. You're
reinforcing that. So I'll go lower. So now every
time you try to bring the dog up, they just fall
out from under you. Or they will jack back and
forth between that too high, too low, too high,
too low, because they don't physiologically know
how to put their body in the right place. That's
how I feel. That's what I feel I have with ever.
Yep. That's my big struggle. Yep. And so, you
know, as I, I mean, if you were a regular student
of mine, I would talk to you a lot about the
body work I wanted you to do. I would start you
on a standby circle and I would start with showing
there's a balance. And in obedience, this is
particularly particular. There's precision. on
there's energy and we tend to do this with the
energy and then try to make the precision find
a place but it doesn't really work like that
we do precision and then we work the arousal
around that level until we can work on there
and there's a nice a nice place a sweet spot
we can feel it and we raise the precision and
we work the energy so You can't, you don't want
to reject energy they bring you. And yet high
arousal or low arousal is the enemy of precision.
And even if you're doing agility, you should
want precision. You should love precision, even
though, you know, the people who tell me they
are free spirits tend to reject the precision
a little bit. But there is a place. Where the
energy and the precision meet, that's your sweet
spot, right? Right. Yes. It's that like, I mean,
it's like the golden nugget, you know, that you
can't explain that. Like, and I, like this past
weekend, there were, I mean, we, I, this is just
where I've been struggling the most with ever.
And I've been doing some different things out
of the context of formal obedience exercises
to work. Happen. Well, I didn't hear what you
said. What did you just say? That's exactly where
this needs to happen. I don't want to because.
Yeah. And that and it is, you know, I mean, I'm
I'm scrambling a little bit like trying to. And
of course, a couple of people have been helping
me. But it did it did it did carry over. And
there were some glimmers of moments. That's where
it feels really good. Yes. And you want to keep
looking for those moments. But so I mentioned
the standby circle. First, the dog has to voluntarily
join you there. Yeah. And I literally start with
freeze and feed every step. No sit. I don't want
the dog to sit. I freeze and feed. I don't tell
them stand, but I. Don't want them to sit. And
I literally take one stop and keep my legs apart.
I don't close my feet. If I close my feet, it
means sit. Yeah. So my legs are apart. I literally
do like a left leg. I start with my left leg.
Left leg goes forward, feed the dog. Right leg
forward, left leg forward, feed the dog. I'm
always feeding the dog on the left leg forward.
And I've learned over time that you need to do
it like that. When I can freeze and feed and
it feels easy and I'm not even going to go into
reinforcement delivery because that's an entirely
different conversation. The reinforcement delivery
is crucial. And my reinforcement delivery is
more like an impulse control game than just jamming
food at them. Because you can control the dog's
emotional state with your reinforcement delivery
in amazing ways. And so I'm taking my steps.
So I freeze and feed every step. When that feels
pretty good, I do every two stops. So it would
be a left, right, left, right, left sequence
for two steps. And then I feed every three steps.
Then I feed every quarter circle. Then every
half circle. Then a whole circle. And I like
to work up to two circles. When I say I've worked
up to two circles, I mean there could be distraction.
And I am not giving the dog feedback. When I
freeze and feed, that's your feedback. I'm silent.
I'm not helping. I'm not babysitting. I'm not
compensating for their errors. They are responsible
for this. And when you say you progress to, you
know, the next step, the next step, that's when
you say it feels, what did you say? It feels
easy. Yeah, it should feel easy. Like the dog
is like. I just want like our listeners to kind
of understand that, you know, like easy. I mean,
I know what you mean. Yeah. So explain it. There
you go. Yeah. Like, it's like, like, like it's
effortless. The dog is 50, bringing 50 % to the
partnership of that. I don't really know how
to say it. Yeah, well, when it's easy, you feel
like you can move on, raise your criteria, and
they'll be able to keep up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay,
so that was a good clarification. Now, once I
can do that, now I don't have to work up to two
full circles. If I have a half a circle, I can
start the next step, which is I add the down.
And the down is both my gauge and my control
button. It's not really a control button. It's
a neutral button. So first I would also tell
you, it must always be a fold back down. And
my fold back downs, when I say down, I literally
want my dogs to jump backwards. And I, they have
to love their down. They have to think that the
down is the best thing in their world. They got
to love the down. There you go. Dogs I'm starting
with that haven't yet. I haven't been with me.
I will just lure the down here. And when I say
lure the down, I never lure and feed because
that's, I don't even know what that is. So there's
criteria on the down. Yeah. So the criteria on
the down is that they have to fold back and it
needs to be prompt and obedient, right? So now
I'm walking in slow. Remember all the work on
the standby circle, it is done in slow. We're
not doing anything normal or fast. It's slow.
And I am now I will. take my two or three or
four steps, however many steps I'm going to take.
And I turn towards the dog and I just tell them
to lie down and I want them to fold back down.
So if I need to lure them to get what I want,
I do. That would be done by luring them into
the down, taking the food away, saying down again,
and then placing the food on the floor between
their knee and elbow. That specifically. Okay.
Once they can do that and the down is like, they're
starting to be like, yeah, I get my dogs to the
point where actually if I start to turn my shoulder
towards them, they'll often back up and lay down
on the standby circle. Because they know what,
they know we're on the circle. They know what
that means. Right. The circle becomes, as in
dressage, we would call it the sacred figure.
And so when we're working this, what I'm doing
is laying the foundation for me to start working
arousal up, arousal down. So now, when that's
easy, I will, the dog is in a down, I'll get
the dog up, I'll take a couple slow steps, and
I'll jog two or three steps, and then I lay the
dog down. You would be surprised the dogs who
now the down doesn't fold back or the down is
not prompt and obedient. Okay. That little arousal,
that little arousal, they already lose their
precision. That's a problem. That's where, as
a friend who's a professional horse trainer and
she says all the time, she's like, that's where
the virus starts. I like that. Because, you know,
when you catch a virus, you don't know you've
caught it until you start to show symptoms. And
so it's a good analogy here because any sloppiness
there, I'm going to tell you, it's showing up
in your work everywhere you look if you know
how to look for it. And so once that's easy,
the dog can take three tiny jogging steps where
nobody's excited. and the down is prompt and
obedient, I can start to add a little more arousal.
And even for those dogs, I'm going to ration
the arousal. So I might jog three steps and lay
the dog down. Do five seconds of body work and
walk around the dog in a circle like I'm testing
the stay. Work a little duration on the down.
So I might be in arousal for literally a count
of three. One, two, three. And then it's got
to be arousal down or the dog is already by habit
going to a place that I don't want him to be.
And I work it from there until I could have them
in high, high, I mean, peel them off the ceiling
arousal and tell them down and it would be prompt
and obedient and I could walk out the door and
they'd never break the stay. See, and that's
the thing, like, because we had talked about
it in the beginning, like, I love, I love that.
I like the hot flaming dog. I like them like
that. But I like it a little too much to the
detriment of the dog's emotion, right? Like that's
the bad part. And especially if you don't understand
the dog's native language and you're reading
arousal as happiness or excitement, you're fucked.
Yeah, which is what I thought it was. Because
then your entire judgment is based on a lie.
Yep. Every decision you make is based on the
wrong premise. And so that whole really understanding
how do dogs, how do dogs work with each other?
Like, what is their native language about? One
of the first books I wrote was about canine body
language, for God's sake. Why? Because everything
is based on that. If you're not reading the dog,
you're not even having the same conversation.
And we're already in a very dangerous place with
animals because sensorily their world and yours
are not even close. You know, a dog is kind of
green -red colorblind. It's about 20 % blurred.
Their depth perception is very different than
yours. All those things are already. vastly different.
What you see and what they see and are perceiving,
not the same world. So now if you add, I can't
read your body language accurately on top of
that, that's where that, what I call that chasm
comes in. That chasm between what you think is
going on and what the dog's perception is of
what is going on can be vastly different there.
And so the native language of the animal you're
training is a pretty big deal. And then you can
factor in things like a horse's vision is creepy
as all get out. And people punish horses for
shying all the time. Well, I'm not saying that
you need to let them do it or encourage it, but
you had better realize that they're. Their perception
of what's going on, they see in this weird, narrow,
horizontal line that's really wide. And again,
there's not a clarity of color like we have.
There's not a clarity of like the blurriness
is there as well. They're also seeing things
a little magnified in a strange way. When you're
jumping a horse, which I don't do, by the way,
I'm too much too chicken for that. But when you're
jumping, the horse can't see the jump about two
strides out. They're jumping blind. Wow. Wow.
Yeah. And, you know, humans, I don't know how
much good it does us really, but we get about
33 % of our brain is prefrontal cortex, executive
decision -making area. How much do you think
a dog gets? I always love to ask this question
because nobody gets it right. I didn't either.
So maybe it's just justification for my own stupidity
again. I thought, well, they've got to have at
least 10, right? Yeah. Because we see them, right?
Like they make some amazing decisions. We've
all seen their dogs go. We go, that is so smart.
Like, right? Good decision. We say, good decision.
Well, that's a whole nother. category again.
You know, there are people like Robert Sapolsky
and Sam Hill who don't even think humans have
free will. So there you go. But the idea that
we base like our behavior is so much based on
how much we have for executive decision making
is astonishing. And we have self -awareness so
we can modify our own behavior. Remember, your
dog does not have self -awareness. He cannot
possibly modify his own behavior. Right. Right.
And I think Robert's supposed to be like, they're
weird right now. They're driven 100%. Which is
hard because we stand there in the ring and we're
like, why are you acting like a weirdo? Stop
acting like that. And really, they have no perception
of that. They don't because they're basing everything
they do from what the environment, and you are
part of the environment, is cuing them to do
and how they're prioritizing the environment.
So once again, if you aren't prioritized over
the environment in your daily training, there
is no hope when the rubber hits the road in the
ring. They don't have any background to do that.
Then I think we're also taking a look at, so
how much prefrontal cortex does a dog have? 5%.
That's why it looks like they don't have any
impulse controls because they don't. Right, right.
And a horse doesn't have any. A horse does not
have a detectable area for a prefrontal cortex.
So that makes riding even stupider than we originally
think. Like, why would I get on 1 ,200 pounds?
That's only a reflex, right? Right. A reflex.
But it does give you a different way to approach
your training in so many ways. Because when you're
not counting on self -awareness, morality, you
know, or any of those things that we can count
on with humans. I think you can start to frame
your training very differently and much more
helpful to the animal. So, you know, as far as
impulse control goes with dogs, we are forever
the Jiminy Cricket on their shoulders. Right?
If I'm present, my dogs have impulse control.
And if I don't, they don't. Unless I've classically
conditioned impulse control to something else.
Hmm. I don't know, man. I'm present, and Zaina
still doesn't have impulse control. Well, right?
Nothing is a given, is it? I know. Because with
the Terriers, they were so impulsive and so reflexive.
You know, I look back, and with the skill set
I have, the fact that I got those Terriers anywhere.
without being constantly embarrassed instead
of occasionally is kind of miraculous in and
of itself because the smooth fox terriers, even
in the terrier group, are known for having no
impulse control. And I always said the difference
between a wire fox and a smooth fox is that you
take that wire fox by the chin hairs and say,
dude, I am not kidding you. They'll like, okay,
glance at their watch and say, you've got three
seconds. And your smooth would look at you and
say, you're kidding, right? So anything that
I trained was an improvement on that, which was
very helpful. I also think the key is like, and
this is where people struggle, and you made a
really key point more than once, is they have
to have mechanical skills first, right? Because
if they don't, they can't even process. Like,
this is where I struggle as an instructor. Like,
I'm always trying to explain, I am trying to
train my students to be dog trainers. Yes. And
they're just trying to learn how to teach behaviors.
Right. And then I'm like, dude, didn't you see
like you were looking right at your dog. You
did not see that happen. They're like, nope.
And I'm like, how? How is that possible? Because
they don't have those mechanical skills yet.
You know how people would. He used to say, are
you good at multitasking? And people would say,
yes. And I would have been one of those. Yeah,
I am amazing at multitasking. And then you find
out that actually, technically, that's never
true. And if you think you're good at it, it's
just because you have an inflated sense of yourself
that, you know, you're just as pissy at it as
everybody else. So they don't even call it multitasking
anymore. It's now task switching. Because what
we know is if I'm doing 10 tasks, my brain has
to do a little of this one, switch to this one,
switch to this one, just like a computer chip,
eh? So when you think about how that works, thank
God we're all really bad at it because humans
are bad at it. But guess what? Dogs are worse.
that's your open door man that's your in they
can't be distracted if you're bothering them
enough so the thing is what i want the reason
you got the terriers to do what you got them
to do and the pony is because what you am i what
i believe you did was because in a way they were
challenging right like i always say like i wish
i could give Some of my students, Zane had to
train for a few days because they would be such
better trainers. They would. Because they're
going to hold, she will 300 % hold you accountable.
And she has no patience, no tolerance for humans
and their inconsistencies and their shenanigans.
Like she's like, dude. No, you are dead wrong.
And I am going to yell at you for doing it dead
wrong. Right. So when you have certain situations,
you must learn to read the dog. Like you have
no other choice, but to learn to communicate
with the animal. In a way that the animal understands.
We've bred dogs. I think a lot of dogs have been
bred to be super tolerant for humans. And they'll
tolerate an enormous amount of like. Bullshit.
Yeah, because we're training them like. using
our human brain and putting our human behaviors
and thoughts and feelings onto it. Instead of,
instead of learning how to read the dog, I almost
feel like in a weird way, like that should come
first. Like everyone's like immediately clicker
cookies, clicker cookies, or, you know, Q like
say yes, cookie. And it's like the whole, wait
a minute, learn who this dog is. How does this
dog communicate? How does this dog see the world?
What makes this dog tick? Like that's secondary
and it should be primary. It should be primary.
But remember, how many dogs a day did you handle?
Do you handle? well I mean like just well I have
said that right in all fairness like first of
all I'm obsessed so I've watched a million YouTube
videos I watch my dogs obsessively when I did
rehab I worked on a million dogs and there it's
like you better read their behavior or you're
gonna get bit right like Lori had said like she
was a vet right Yeah, one time I had, I don't
know, 12 dogs in the house and I boarded between
20 and 60 a day. Yeah. And I put them in playgroups.
I mean, there were playgroups of one, don't get
me wrong. But that kind of volume hones your
ability. But here's what I do say. You can learn
to read your dog. You know, students, they can
at least learn to read their own dog. It's an,
it feels difficult as an instructor because like
you say, I'm always like, well, did you see that?
And they're like, nope. And I'm like, all righty
then. I do some filming when I'm instructing.
I try to explain it, you know, you point out
the errors and everything. But even at that,
sometimes even Diane, my assistant trainer should
be like, you got to remember, we're not seeing
what you're seeing. And I think that that makes
it sometimes difficult to relate to a student.
Well, I think I've kind of figured that out.
And I'm like, yeah, you just have to be patient
with that. But I just want students to understand,
like, I think that's why I emphasize it so much.
And we emphasize it on this podcast, like constantly,
you know, read your dog, watch videos, watch
them in life. But having said all that. like
just to put everything full circle back in perspective
like I was at the trial this weekend Lori will
attest to this and I'm like banging my head against
the wall like I know what is Zesty's problem
is he distracted or is he worried or is he this
or is he that like um right because when it's
your dog and when it's something it's a totally
different ball game Right. And when it's that
thing you're looking for. So that piece is hard
being objective about that. And that thing where
like dogs will look a certain way. Like, for
example, Zesty can look like he's dying, like
he's so stressed out, like he has these big droopy
sad eyes and he just looks like he's dying. And
I'm like, oh, my God, he's stressed. He's under
pressure. And he's distracted. And I'm like,
God damn it. You don't look distracted, you little
liar. Well, and then there's the dog that looks
better than they are and the dog that looks worse
than they are. You know, I have a dog and it
looks really, really stressed, but it'll take
a treat from me. And I'm like, well, you can't
be that stressed, dude. Right? And I think then
there's those nuances and dogs have to use the
same signal for different things. The way I usually
explain it at a body language clinic would be
my daughter was graduating, getting her master
of fine arts from the Iowa Writers Workshop.
She says, I want a dictionary. Well, I'm like,
we have this dictionary. It's like a paperback
Webster's, right? And she's like, no, no, no,
no, no. I need this dictionary. This dictionary
had like 10 volumes that were a hundred bucks
a piece. Oh my God. And it was filled with millions
and millions and millions of words that we use
to describe the environment around us in our
internal states. And dogs don't have that. Even
at a clinic, I'm like, I want you to name every
part of a dog's body they use to speak with.
You can barely get to 15. Even if you start including
things like blinking and breathing. You know,
they got their tail. They got their body, their
ears. They have tension. They have breathing.
They have blinking. I'm only to six. Right, right.
They don't have that much to work with. And they
don't have self -awareness. Your dog is actually,
A, talking all the time. Every move they make
is language to each other. Yeah. And because
they don't have very many body parts, you have
to start to, people are always like, well, I
want to watch the tail. And I'm like, well, it's
not kind of about the tail. It's about if each
body part were a word, there could be a sentence
and then there's a context. So if I ask you to
spell the word two, how would you spell it? Right.
Right. Two, T -O, two as in also T -O -O or two
as in the number T -W -O. And so what you have
to do with the dog is if all they can say is
two, you've got to figure out that context to
figure out what is going on. And I feel like
the ears and the tail, which people think are
the biggest want to say are the biggest indicators,
are really not. To me, those are the nuances.
So they're like an adverb, you know, or an adjective,
something like that, not a noun. And then there's,
as you say, factoring that into, okay, I'm going
to read the dog's body language and I have to
make a judgment on it to help us out. And not
really knowing what judgment you should make
because they're using the same body part. Well,
now I don't feel quite it. I feel only marginally
less dumb. Yeah, but it happens to all of us.
You know, sometimes if I've got a group of dogs,
I can only tell what one dog is doing by the
other dogs. Does that make any sense? Yeah. If
I've got a group of dogs and everybody's looking
pretty good, but I have one dog that suddenly
leaves the group, there is a reason that dog
left the group. And it's possibly that one of
the other dogs in the group said, get the hell
out of here. Nobody wants you here. And that
signal that they might do for that would be so
subtle. But you know, Pedro, when we teach the
dogs to have attention, the way I know your dogs
have attention, Lori, I'm sure you're doing the
same thing. We can use that if they flick their
eyes. That's a gauge. It can be too much arousal.
It can be distraction. But on some level, also,
you can go kind of radical behaviorist, which
means when I'm doing shelter work, I don't have
a clinical history. I have nothing. I've got
a dog in front of me doing whatever it's doing.
And so I just basically say the dog is doing
X. I'm going to teach it to do Y. You know, the
dog is jumping all over me. I'm going to step
into them until they put their feet on the floor.
I'm not even going to sit. I don't have time.
I'm working as shelter dogs. So yeah, sometimes
I tell students that I'm like, if we're not sure
what's going on, we're like, okay, let's just
get it to do like the other thing. I think it's
always that thing. I think what I'm referring
to is that like, in this case, which is what
we talked about at the beginning, which is that
super subtle thing, you know, where it's like,
you're On the same page, the dog's giving you
the same energy. Like you're both in sync, you
know. You're just directing them to that desired
behavior that already has a reinforcement history
anyway. I'm sorry, say that again. You're just
going to redirect the dog to the behavior that
already has a reinforcement history. Like eye
contact. Like if you're eye flicking, dude, you
know better. You know how to do this. Yeah. And
if I think it's really nervousness, then I'm
probably going to do a little body work and then
try it again. Because sometimes that's the only
way you can figure it out. You do stuff until
you're like, well, that works. Until you figure
it out. Yeah. You just start cycling through
things until something works. And that thing
that works might be different in different circumstances
even. To be super helpful to people who are listening.
Like we don't know either really. And we're just
guessing as well. Well, and that is what it is
sometimes, right? Is experimentation. And that's
another area. I feel like the dog community,
training community or sport community tends to
be weakened, right? Because it's like this fear
of like, well, I don't want to try it. Like they'd
rather do. insanity right the same thing over
and over again hoping for a different result
because this is the way it's always been done
or this is the way everyone says to do it or
whatever then Try a different way. Cause it might
not work. And then what my whole world is going
to come to an end. Everything's ruined. It's
never, you know, and I'm always like, guys, just
try it. It's okay. Like if it doesn't work out,
we'll try something else. And if that doesn't
work, we'll try something else. Yeah. You're,
you're training the most forgiving species on
God's green earth. Seriously. So there you go.
I think there's that you have to give people
permission to experiment. But then you also can't
say, oh, it didn't work because I did it twice.
And so I'm going to change. And people don't
really know the difference of that either. You
know, we've all got the student that goes and
I somebody said this and somebody said that and
somebody said that. And I took a poll with the
show and and everybody says all these things
and then they go try all these things. Well,
if they're not coherent. I mean, I have. Yeah.
I mean, once I started taking lessons from Bettina,
she did things in such a specific way that I
will take lessons from her or one of her students.
No, she's gone from me. I cannot hug her in person
anymore. So I have a student of hers who is really
good. And I go to Liz now. Liz is my trainer
now. Because if I go to other people. They don't
necessarily know what I have on board. Right?
Right. I never discourage my students from going
to see different people, but I do tell them that
they need to philosophically know that that person
is at least in the realm philosophically of where
they're thinking they want to be. Right. Yes.
You can't. Right. It has to kind of fall in line.
Or you have to adapt it so that it kind of falls
in line with the philosophy of how you've been
training your dog. Like, I'm really good at,
like, I say bastardizing something, right? Like,
hear something somewhere and then go, hmm, how
can I apply that? what i do yeah exactly yeah
in a way like with how we do it and you have
to try it long enough that you can you can't
really do it for a week or two and then go try
the show and then go well it didn't work well
i don't know did you really do it long enough
is it you know because or yeah it was a little
better at the trial than it wasn't well okay
that's really good it held up for part of the
trial keep at it until it holds up for the whole
child um to be able to make a determination about
the data you've collected right yeah and it's
that data collection right that's so important
like um collecting data right and analyzing data
and writing it down like if i say to somebody
how many months have you been doing this like
my my poor training partner i throw him under
the bus all the time but he's he writes it all
down now but he didn't used to so i'd go dude
how many months have you been working on this
oh two i'm like try five and i'm like and it's
not even my dog so what are you doing like how
do you how can you tell me it's two months you
need to write it down because if you're not keeping
track, how do you know? Like how, at what point
do you know this is working or this isn't working?
Or I've tried this, I've tried that. Like, if
you don't keep track, you're never, you know,
it should be more scientific or more thoughtful,
right? Like, yes, I experiment, but within that,
I am keeping track of like, okay, I've tried
this and I tried it long enough. that I know
it did or did not work, right? Yeah, and if you're
constructing, you've got an advantage because
you can try to cross, you know, a series of 20
to 100 dogs and start to feel baselines from
there too. Yeah. I'm going to interrupt you guys
because I'm going to have to exit. Oh, we don't
leave, Lori. I'm sorry. I have students waiting.
Where are your priorities? I could sit here all
day. And your students will be glad you chose
them. That's right. That's right. You have good
students. Yeah. Thanks, Brenda. Thank you so
much. Thank you for inviting me. I had way, way,
way too much fun. I hope I didn't travel around
too much with my. No, I thought this was like
super good. no it was so good i feel like we
need to have you on eight more times as long
as you guys can stand it that's fine oh we would
love it so good so good all right are you guys
are you guys continue i'll wrap it up but brenda
just don't go i just want to say goodbye off
to the side but um so everybody thank you so
much everybody thank you for having um thank
you A million times, Brenda, for coming on. You
guys should all go check out her website because
her stuff is so good. And yeah. Thank you, Brenda.
Thanks, everybody. Thank you. It's lovely to
be here. Okay.