Alice Kyteler and the Kilkenny Witch Trials

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. It's officially Halloween season. Yep. Listen, It's always Halloween season for me. But I understand that's not how the rest of the world works. I think the rest of the world is incorrect. But that's fine. Here we are. It's October. It is just a heads up for everybody. I have a couple of witchy things in this mix this year that aren't really all that halloweeny in my opinion, because it really becomes a deconstruction of like social problems, right, the way religion has been used to torture people. Yeah, that happens with a lot of the witch episodes, honestly, Yeah, there's no way around it. And in the second one that we're going to talk about in an upcoming episode, in particular, we talk a lot there is a lot of research done into it from a psychological perspective, so we talk a lot about that. But today we are talking about Alice Kitler, who was accused of witchcraft and Kilkenny, Ireland. And although the witchcraft allegations against her are generally seen as nonsense today and really born out of this interlocking family arguing in a personal vendetta that she was pulled into and probably some jealousy for her success in life. Alice Killer often does not escape suspicion entirely, even through the modern lens, because a good many people think she may have been essentially a black widow, so a serial killer who murdered her husband's for financial gain. You'll see why and you can come to your own conclusion. But the real tragedy in the case of Alice Kitler and the witchcraft trial that really shocked fourteenth century Ireland, in my opinion, has more to do with a woman she employed, who paid a very steep price for her association with Alice, and that's what we're talking about today. In March of thirteen twenty four, Richard Ladredd, the Bishop of Ossory in Kilkenny, opened an inquisition into heresy and ossary, claiming a quote diabolical nest had been uncovered. At the center of that alleged nest was a woman named Alice Kittler, So the woman that a lot of people saw as suspicious. This is an accusation of witchcraft that predates the more commonly known witch trials by several hundred years. For example, the Salem witch trials didn't happen until the end of the seventeenth century, and Norway's Varda witch trials, which we've covered on the show before, took place a few decades earlier than the trials in Salem, but that was still in the seventeenth century. And one of the things that has to be considered and remembered in this case is the way that heresy and witchcraft became conflated as instances of heresy, by which we mean just the rejection of Christianity and or the Church's influence in people's lives grew in the twelfth to the fourteenth centuries, Church officials increasingly characterized anyone criticizing the Church as clearly evil, and that characterization escalated to include an assumption of association with demons, and witchcraft was soon part of that mix. The definition of heresy also expanded from people who actually were working to counter the Church to basically anyone who expressed any sort of eccentricity or seemed odd or lived outside a pretty narrow boundary of societal morese. Additionally, there's an element of time and place here that is less about people lumping things together and more about legal definitions. In his twenty twelve book of Bewitched Land, Witches and Morlocks of Ireland, doctor Robert Kerin makes the point that this was before Ireland had any witchcraft laws on the book, so it fell under the auspices of ecclesiastical law, in which witchcraft was defined specifically as heresy rather than as a criminal act. So keep all of that in mind as Alice's story unfolds. Regarding the Kittler family in Kilkenny, Missus C. J. Murphy, writing for the Old Kilkenny Review in nineteen fifty three, stated quote among the Norman families who had settled in the city was a family named Kittler. Robert le Kitler was a trader with Flanders toward the end of the thirteenth century. There was also a William Kittler, but nothing of note seems to be known of him. The only member of this family whose name is remembered through the mists of six centuries is Dame Alice Kittler, whose famous trial for witchcraft must have shaken all Ireland and had repercussions as far away as London and Rome. So Alice was born circa twelve sixty. That was a little more than ninety years after Kilkenny was officially founded by Charter. Alice's year of birth is a little wonky if you look it up. It's sometimes given as twelve eighty. It makes more sense if that is actually the year of her first marriage, which is also often listed as twelve eighty. If you do the math, that makes sense. Another year that popped up for her birth was twelve sixty three. So it seems like somewhere along the line a typo or a misread happened that has proliferated through a lot of write ups regarding these events. Because twelve eighty gets listed a lot, just know that Alice's first husband, probably married in twelve eighty, was William Outlaw. The couple had a son with the same name as his father, and her husband, William was a banker, and he did very well for himself. In thirteen oh two, her husband, William Outlaw Senior, died and the details of that death are pretty sketchy, but it seems as though it was considered to be pretty sudden Alice may have been accused of murdering him, although it's unclear if that's the case, and there don't appear to have been any official legal actions taken, so it might have been a rumor or an accusation that never manifested in any kind of actual action. But when William Senior died, their son William took over his father's banking business, and the younger William became both very wealthy and very influential. And this was also in part because the Outlaw family, which if you look it up is sometimes written as Utlaw ut Lagh, was very well positioned and influential in Dublin. In the alleged rumors, she was accused of murdering William Outlaw with the help of a man named Adam Deblund. Sometimes we're also referenced as Adam Blunt, who she married soon after William Outlaw's death. While she was with Adam, she started to work alongside him and his money lending business. Alice and Adam's marriage didn't last especially long, although they may have had children together. There's a lack of clarity about whether William Outlaw was Alice's only biological child, and that perhaps other children often listed as hers, were actually step children that had been born during her husband's prior marriages. Adam Blund, like William Outlaw Senior, died unexpectedly after a strange illness. In thirteen oh nine. Alice was married to a third husband, Richard Deval, and after seven years of marriage, Alice was widowed for a third time, once again, after her husband developed a sudden illness. Richard died in thirteen sixteen. After Deval's death, Alice became embroiled in a financial dispute with his children over his estate. She fought to get her dour that's some of money that was normally set aside as a sort of insurance to be paid out to a widow if her husband should die. She did eventually get the money. This made it the third fortune that she had inherited. Alice had become so incredibly wealthy that she lent money to King Edward. The second one of her business ventures was an inn which had been in the family since she was a child, and that inn still operates today. Yeah, it's actually a popular tourist attraction. You can go have a drink at the pub that was owned by the killers. She married her fourth husband, John Lapour, in thirteen sixteen, and like her other spouses, Lapour was a man of means. He owned a lot of property. Eight years into Alice in John's marriage, John became seriously ill and he was apparently aware that he might not recover from this illness and wanted to update his will. And this update left a lot of his holdings, some say all of his holdings to Alice and her oldest son, William, and diminished or eliminated what his own children would receive. When his children visited Alice in John's home to check in on their father, they were very distraught at what they saw. He was incredibly gaunt. He looked as though he had been wasting away for some time and maybe had not been administered any help. They got very suspicious, particularly when they realized that their father had been in the process of amending his will to leave everything to Alice and William. And at that point they contacted Bishop Richard Ladredd regarding their suspicions that foul play was involved and that Alice was the perpetrator. And coming up, we're going to talk about Richard Ladredd, but first we will pause for a sponsor break. The year after Alice had married John Lapour, a new bishop had moved to the Osary diocese in Kilkenny. That was the aforementioned Richard the Dread and soon Ladred actually had conflict with another member of the Lapour family. That was Arnold Lapour, who was Seneschal of kil Kenny, Wexford and Carlow. The Lapour family had been in Ireland for at least one hundred and fifty years. At this point they had become quite powerful, So a seneschal in this instance is a government official appointed by the King of England to serve as an administrator and sort of like substitute ruler in an area. Because bishops also held a place of political power and often were in charge of legal matters, this meant that if a seneschal and a bishop in an area did not agree, it could cause a lot of strife, and it definitely did in this instance. One reason there was this level of tension and overlap was in part because kil Kenny had grown up around a monastery to become an important hub for both trade and governance, so both the church and the secular government felt that they should have primary say over the way the town was run. Another issue was that from thirteen oh seven to early thirteen twenty seven, King Edward the second was the ruler of England. England had claimed lordship over Ireland, but Edward the Second was miirred in so many conflicts, both at home and abroad, that he was ineffectual in a lot of ways, and a lot of Ireland was just kind of indifferent to rebellious when it came to anyone from England, whether from government or the church. So Ledredd right out of the gate was just viewed as an interloper. Richard Ledredd was born circa twelve eighty somewhere in England, though specifics are unknown. His early life in general is not very well documented. We know he became a Franciscan friar at some point, and that he eventually made his way to Avignon when the papal court was there during the papacy of John the twenty second. There have been some interpretations of his ride where he describes himself as quote brought up, educated and promoted under the wings of the Holy Apostolic see as meaning that he literally grew up at the papal court. But we don't know that for certain. It's also been theorized that when la Dread was sent to the Osary Diocese in thirteen seventeen, that he might have been tasked with seeking out witchcraft, as that was something that John the twenty second was concerned about. John the twenty second was the pope who would write the doctrine that made witchcraft a form of heresy in the eyes of the church. Pope John the twenty second was worried, or at least claimed to be worried about people attacking him with magic. He had Bishop Hughes Jureau arrested and charged with attempted murder through sorcery, and other members of the papal court had similar accusations made against them. We couch that to say he may have been concerned about it, because there is plenty of information that suggests this was a little bit more calculated than actual fear. Some of these accusations were very likely calculated moves to discredit enemies. So though the Pope might have genuinely worried about things like witchcraft and demons, he was also really skilled at deploying such accusations with very little real concern. Regarding demons, Kilkenny does seem to have been perceived by the Church as a potential hotbed for sorcery or some sort of cultish behavior involving the devil at this time. And this could have been as simple as it having become an area of prosperity that was not especially beholden to the Church. And it seems that Ledread may have certainly learned from John to twenty seconds example when it came to exploiting these concerns, real or not, for his own benefit. When he started his work in Osrey, his first move was to assemble all the clergy of the area for a formal meeting, and during that meeting the real lax church leadership of Kilkenny was informed of all the ways that it would be tightening up and enforcing new rules, and that included keeping an eye out for heretics. Meanwhile, Ladread and Arnold Dupour were at odds just about from the moment Ladrede arrived. According to an article from the Old Kilkenny Review that is archived by the kil Kenny Archaeological Society, Lapour referred to Ladread as quote that vile, rustic peasant from England. In an argument, Ladred told Lapour that he did not fear him, and Lapour replied with quote, well, well, you will meet obstacles wherever you go, indicating that nobody in the area was going to be especially cooperative. So, in this atmosphere of conflict, and specifically conflict with the Seneschal, the Bishop Ledread was very eager to hear the story that the Lapour family had to tell him about John Lapour's condition. They described their father's truly troubling state of illness, which they suspected might be poisoning or even the result of some sort of bewitching, and they also hinted it how suspicious it was that Alice's previous three husbands had also fallen ill. Suddenly, Ladredd charged Alice, her son William Outlaw, and ten other people that Alice was associated with three men and seven women with heresy. The specifics of these charges sound pretty bananas. Soon Alice had been accused of things like sacrificing animals, of using magic on her husband's to cause their demises, and of mixing potions in the skull of a robber. Even the ingredients she was suspected of using in her skull concoctions were listed, and they were things like clothes from unbaptized children, hair from buttocks, yes you heard that correctly, men's fingernails, and even worms. And with these elixirs, Alice and her associate were accused of manipulating people's behaviors. The seven accusations leveled at Alice were one denying the power of Christ and the church. Two sacrificing animals to a demon named Robert, who she also had a sexual relationship with. Three asking demons to advise her in witchcraft. Four having that sexual relationship with the demon Robert sometimes also called Robin Artisan. This accusation even describes the shape shifting of the demon, indicating that it sometimes appeared as an animal and at other times as an Ethiopian man. Five having covent meetings in the church. Six making powders and ointments or potions from ingredients, including those who mentioned a moment ago. The subtext on this one indicated that it was these potions used in the seventh accusation, which was seven bewitching her husbands and killing them for their money. There have been scholarly papers written that suggests that it was actually Richard Ledredd who introduced these ideas of demonic interactions into Ireland, as similar stories had existed in France prior to his assignment at Ossary, but don't really appear to be part of any Irish records before he was there. Witchcraft and occult practice had been known of in the years before Ladread, throughout Europe, of course, and in Ireland, but it wasn't considered a crime, either civilly or ecclesiastically. It was only perceived as evil if it was used to harm, and any charges regarding it had to do a specific instances in which someone had wronged someone else, So you could be charged with using witchcraft to cause someone trouble, like spoiling their crop, but you'd only be facing the consequences for the damage to the crop, not for being involved in the occult or witchcraft. But the time of Ladread in Ireland and Alice's case are in the early phase of that changing in Europe as the concept begun, and to include this idea that in order to achieve some level of proficiency or power in witchcraft, a person just had to have made a pact with the devil. There are, of course, theories that all of the wild accusations thrown at Alice Kitler were actually catalyzed by Ladred's vendetta against her husband's relative, Arnold Lapour, because Arnold and Alice were good friends, and Ladred was frustrated he had been assigned to Ossory but didn't know anybody or have any friends there, and the locals were not interested in his authority. Kilkenny was too remote in terms of the English King to have a higher up step in to settle these kinds of disputes, so Ladred didn't have a lot of tools at his disposal when it came to this ongoing beef with Arnold Lapour, but he could do what Pope John the twenty second had done to his enemies, which was take legal action against people in Arnold Lapour's circle. In the case gets convoluted almost instantly. When Ledred became concerned that he could not manage the situation and kill Kenny, he wrote to the Chancellor of the King in Dublin. This was the normal order of operations for escalating a situation, but the chancellor for the King was a man named Father Roger Outlaw, a relative of Alice's first husband and a cousin of her son William, and at this point, William, who had become quite influential, reached out to his cousin Roger and discussed the matter, and soon both father Roger Outlaw and Arnold Lapour had written to Richard Ledredd telling him that he really should just drop the matter. Bishop Ledread was unwilling to just let it go, though, and he was insistent that this was an issue of faith that should not be ignored. He told the Chancellor Roger Outlaw as much, and the Chancellor's reply, which was intended it would seem to put an obstacle in Richard's path, said that a person could not be detained by the church unless they had been excommunicated for a period of forty days. But to Ladread, this was not an obstacle exactly. It was more like a fresh project. He was adamant that heretics didn't fall under that rule because they were flight risks. He issued a citation to Alice which came with a court date, and she promptly did exactly what Ladredd said that she would, which is that she fled Kilkenny. Her court date, though went ahead is planned. The Chancellor actually sent a defense team to handle Alice's case, saying that she was not required to personally appear to answer a charge of heresy, so to be clear. The person Ledred had turned to for help in this matter instead sided with the accused and used the power of his office to provide her with legal assistance. But Ladred still went ahead with the case and he declared Alice excommunicated. The period of her excommunication was set to more than forty days, and then he charged her formally with heresy. But since Arnold Lapour had a significant amount of power in kill Kenny, he was able to stifle the trial by having Ladread arrested. He did not want to give witchcraft accusations any oxygen and he was hoping to just shut the whole thing down. Bishop Ladread was taken to the prison at Kilkenny Castle and he was in custody for seventeen days before he was released. During that time, Arnold Lapour and William Outlaw offered an open forum for anyone in Kilkenny who had issues with Ladredd to state those with the assurance that their complaints would be heard and also pursued. The pair were surely hoping that enough people would bring them complaints that they could make a case that la Dread should be recalled by the Pope, but nobody else filed any complaints. Realizing that no one was going to come forward, Lapour had the Bishop released. When he got out, the Bishop was not especially interested in letting things go. He went right back to his accusations and even decided he could issue a judgment against Alice and her associates and his opinion the matter was settled and she was guilty. Ladred issued another summons for both Alice Kitler and William Outlaw to appear before him in ecclesiastical court on these charges, but Alice's friends and relations once again intervened. King's Chancellor, Roger Outlaw summoned Bishop Ledread to appear in Dublin in court, and the date for his hearing just happened to be the exact same date that Ladred had called Alice and William to come in to see him. Ladred actually thought initially that all of this might work out in his favor. He was at last going to get to lay out his case against Alice before a higher authority, which is something he had wanted all along. Arnold Lapour is said to have waited along the road for Ladred to pass so he could once again arrest him. But Ladred learned of this plan and avoided it. But when Richard Ladredd arrived in Dublin, he found that another trap of sorts had been laid. Alice Kitler was there and she had prepared a defamation case against the bishop for accusing her of heresy and sentencing her to excommunication without a fair trial. Alice had a lot of money and so she had a lot of resources, and she had appealed the bishop's ruling and it went to the parliament in Dublin. Had she been making this appeal a couple hundred years later, she might have been in trouble with higher officials. But her case was before the fevered witch hunts of Europe and other parts of the world really got into swings. So a lot of officials came away from these proceedings thinking that maybe Ladred was not really in touch with reality. Yeah, they were, like, these charges seem Cokammie to us worked in Alice's favor, that she is on the early side of things. Bread had been trying the entire time he had Alice in his sights to get the authorities in Dublin to issue a warrant for her arrest so that he could legally detain her. And now all of the people he had been trying to get help from were allied with Alice against him. Now in the King's Court and as part of the proceedings, Arnold Lapour addressed the court saying, quote, you know that in Ireland there never was found heretics, for it is wont to be called the island of saints. But now a stranger from England comes and says, we are all heretics and excommunicated, alleging for this certain papal constitutions which we never heard of. And since the Infamia of that land touches the person of us all, it becomes you all to take a part against him. And Ladred's early rulings were dismissed and he was sent back to his diocese. But once he got back to Kokenny, he continued to pursue his case against Alice. He was so obsessed and so dogged trying to convince higher ups in the church and in the government that he was on to something that he eventually managed to convince a handful of those people to come to kil Kenny for a court session. He had called for distance reference. Kill Kenny is about one hundred and twenty eight kilometers or eighty miles southwest of Dublin. In a car today, that would take maybe ninety minutes, but in thirteen twenty four it was a much more time consuming journey to convince somebody to make They really must have been hoping they could just show up and put the matter to rest once and for all, so that they could get some peace from Richard Ladredd. This hearing took place in Saint Mary's Church, and the people in attendance included Chancellor Roger Outlaw, as well as other officials from Dublin. In this time, Ladredd formally accused William Outlaw of harboring heretics. In a somewhat odd detail, William appeared at this hearing in a full suit of armor. And there is a plot twist coming, So we're actually gonna pause right here for a sponsor break. During the hearing on July second, thirteen twenty four, and Kill Kenny, in which Richard Ledrette accused William Outlaw the Younger of heresy, things got very heated. The accusers and William's defenders argued back and forth until Suddenly, all of that bickering was ended when William confessed to harboring heretics. Part of the preparations for this event was the questioning of a woman named Petronilla of Meath, who worked for Alice. Petronella was one of the people accused of being part of Alice's nefarious group of witches, and Petronilla was questioned while being whipped. This is often described as being questioned under torture, and while whipping would certainly be torturous, just for clarity, this was not the same kind of torture that would later be used to question suspected witches. At the time, England had a law in place against using torture to gain confessions. Whipping was allowed because Petronilla was a servant and servants could be whipped according to the law. The whipping was certainly enough. Petronilla told authorities that she watched Alice practice witchcraft and had participated and acted as a go between for Alice and her demon lover. Her recorded testimony was brought into the court proceedings against William. In fact, her whole case was based on Petronilla's torture induced confession. Although William had confessed he was imprisoned only briefly. His negotiated sentencing, which was issued by Ladred, was surprisingly not all that harsh. To make penance, he had to agree to attend Mass three times a day for a year. He also had to feed the poor and kill Kenny, and he needed to pay for some needed upkeep to the cathedral and chapel, specifically the laying of a new lead roof. And William agreed to the sentence, but he didn't actually follow through and do those things, and that made Richard Ladredd I rate. William's disregard for his penance put ladredde in the position of weakness. He had worked so hard to get to a point where he had successfully prosecuted at least one person from the heretic nest he believed was operating and kill Kenny, only to have his judgment ignored. He wanted to punish Alice Kitler once and for all, but the problem was he couldn't find her. He could, however, find her servant, Petronella, and she would have to serve as an example. On November three, thirteen twenty four, Petronella became the first person in Ireland to be burned at the stake for witchcraft. William, though was once again able to avoid any harsh punishment, undoubtedly due to his status as a wealthy and powerful man, he did have to finally pay for that church roof. As for the other people that La Dread sentenced alongside Alice, because others in their group were convicted, there isn't much information regarding their lives after the trial, and there are actually, undoubtedly because this is from seven hundred years ago, a lot of really unsatisfying loose ends in this story. So when did Alice's fourth husband, John Lapour die? We don't know what happened to his kids who started all of this with their accusations unclear? And the big question where did Alice Killer end up? Because she vanishes and it is generally believed that she used her vast wealth and connections to escape to England and she probably lived out the rest of her life there. She did take Petronella's daughter Basilia, who had also been accused with her kill. Kenny seemed to be stuck with Ladredd, though he remained the bishop there until his death in thirteen sixty. He published his account of the trial in Latin several years after it was concluded. In his time in Ireland he was embroiled in witchcraft and heresy, accusations, claims that people were plotting to kill him, and complaints sent by various officials, including King Edward the Third to the Pope asking him to please recall Ladread. By the time he died, he had a reputation for terrorizing his parishioners with baseless accusations. Yeah, he was not satisfied with any of this and really just kept going to the point that people were like, somebody, come and get your boy, Ladredd, because more problems than helping any of us. Uh. In twenty twenty four, Kill Kenny commemorated the trial and the death of Petronilla with a full program of events including lectures. They did tours, they had a reenactment of the trial, and they had a civic service of atonement and forgiveness in Saint Kanis's Cathedral. Dad is the story of the first witch burned in Ireland. Yeah, I have many thoughts that we could talk about on Friday, and in the meantime I also had a fun email about sewing. This is from our listener Kelly, who writes Allow Holly and Tracy. I'm behind, but I've just listened to your podcast on paper sewing patterns. I wish I had heard it early, as there was a convention on sewing patterns in Charlotte, North Carolina in July or August of this year that I could have told y'all about. Check out patterncon dot com for more information. She mentions that it is supposed to be in Atlanta in twenty twenty six, so I will be on the lookout for that because that would be fun. It's a brand new convention, so that's why I had never heard of it. Kelly writes, Below are my two rescue dogs, Abby, the gray mastive mix, and Hefner, the tan Staffordshire Terrier mix. Hefner passed away in January, and we believe Abby is thirteen or even fourteen. We've had her since twenty thirteen. Also attached is a dress sewing pattern that I will attempt to make for my daughter's wedding and the material I will be making it out of, which is sharmus. Take care, and at least I will be happy to hear more about home sewing history any aspect will be interesting to me. Kelly. Okay, First of all these dogs, those are kissable faces. They're good ones. Second, the pattern that she shared with us is when I was very familiar with already. It's a pattern by charm Patterns, which is a pattern company run by a woman who goes by Gerty who does like retro style patterns with some you know, modern cuts and techniques, and they're amazing. I love them. If you are a pattern person and you're dismayed at how commercial patterns are playing out right now, this is a great option. I have no reason to tout this other than I love charm Patterns and I follow her Patreon and you get a free pattern every month with it, and I love it. I don't make them all, but I love them all. I cannot wear this particular dress. It is like a halter thing of the very open back, and I just am not built for that. But I love it. And I also want to applaud your bravado in making this out of Charmus, because Charmus is a pain and that took us to work with in my opinion, but it gives me a lovely memory of watching Project Runway this season that Nick Verios was on and him being in mood Fabrics and the way he pronounced charmus when speaking Spanish was chamuz and I will never forget it and I love it forever. So Kelly, I hope your dress turns out beautiful, and I also hope you send me a picture of it, because I really want to see it. This particular pattern I have met, Like I said, I've never used, but I stole a technique from it on a wedding dress that I just made. So I hope only great success for you, and thank you for sharing both your project and your pups with us. And I'm glad that you like our sewing stuff. If you would like to write to the podcast, you can do that at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. And if you haven't subscribed to the show, you can do that EASYPC. It's easier than sewing. 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