Making spaceflight accessible to people with physical disabilities

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Physics world. Hello and welcome to
the Physics World Stories podcast.

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I'm Andrew G. Lester. And in this episode,

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we're gonna hear from people involved
in the fascinating research into the

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feasibility of para astronauts
being done by teams working for the

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European Space Agency. I wanted to
know what Issa's motivations were.

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So I went along to their media conference
just to note that the conference took

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place online and there were
some technical difficulties.

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So my apologies for the slight
audio interference here,

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but I think it's worth it to hear
Issa's perspective. Here's Issa,

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director General m Warner.

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First of all, diversity
is not a burden for us.

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Diversity is an asset for us, and we
know that at Iza because since its,

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uh, creation in 1975, Iza had, um,

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member states around Europe.

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And I can tell you from my own experience
that you see really different cultures

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from people from Northern and Southern
Europe, from Eastern and Western Europe.

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So therefore, diversity for
ISA is an asset already, uh,

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looking to the
nationalities. But of course,

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diversity is also something which we are
looking now into a more protest sense,

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looking to gender, sexual
orientation, ethnically beliefs,

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age and disabilities, and other
characteristics. So for us,

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as an equal opportunity
unity employer, um,

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it's really important to have
diversity as it helps us to make

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things better. Um, and therefore we
would like at this type in the new,

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in the new search, uh, 20 21, 20 22,

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we would really particular encourage
women to apply, uh, because,

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uh, it's very interesting and,

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and supportive if we have mixed teams, uh,

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with different people from different
background with different gender,

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et cetera, as I said. But we have
even more exciting news this time.

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For the first time in human history,

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Eza will be selecting persons with
physical disabilities who will

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take part in either Paris or out project.

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So we did a first trial some
four years ago when we invited

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eight people with disabilities
out of five European countries and

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made some parabolic flights with them.
And this was a very nice experience,

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and we believe it's time also
to assess the feasibility

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of sending astronauts with
physical disabilities into space.

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David Parker is Issa's Director
of Human and Robotic Exploration.

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All of us see at E C C diversity
as not just an aspiration,

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but something we have to live
in our everyday lives. And, uh,

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we all witness people with
various, uh, disabilities,

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or let's say differently abled
people taking their place in society,

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in politics, on our TV screens, we've
all marveled at the Para Olympians.

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So these ordinary people that
have overcome extraordinary
challenges to succeed

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in life, we need people
in Issa who can succeed.

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We already have people working at
Issa who have, uh, disabilities,

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and we need more of them
to join us. But, um, uh,

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but we visible representation is
always important. And so therefore,

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we've been asking ourselves what are
the barriers preventing us to fly a

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physically disabled astronaut
to the I s s and to work there?

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So therefore, alongside the Core
Astronaut Selection Project,

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we've assessed how to select a physically
disabled individual to join the

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Astronaut Reserve in the first
instance. And subsequently,

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we're gonna investigate the technical
and operational feasibility of

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implementing a meaningful and
useful mission by such a person.

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Now, this possibility
raises many, many questions,

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most of which we do not have answers for
yet. Obviously, we don't have our own,

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uh, crew vehicles to fly to
Space Station today in Europe.

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So obviously we need to work with
all of the i s s partners on this,

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and obviously, safety is a vital
consideration. Nevertheless,

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we think that if we don't ask the
questions, we'll not find the answers.

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And this is the very
essence of exploration.

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So we know that in
presenting this idea today,

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there's a very fine line between
raising expectations and the reality

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that it will take us time to find
answers to all these questions.

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We need to work with experts
in the field, a mayor,

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we need to work with the providers
of the space, transportation.

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And there's a very, uh, I mean maybe
also with, uh, technology companies,

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medical technology companies,

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and maybe by this we'll open up new
partnerships for our human research

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program and maybe have far-reaching, uh,

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implications for our eventual lunar
and Mars exploration. So we have a,

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we feel we have a responsibility to at
least try and make this happen and lead

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by example. So we hope
to push the envelope, uh,

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on the topic of disability at work and
inspire people with special needs to

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apply to other roles in ISA and more
widely in the, in the space industry.

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So, let me be precise.

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We are looking for an individual
who is psychologically, cognitively,

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technically and professionally
qualified to be an astronaut,

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but has certain classes of
physical limitation that
would normally prevent them

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from being selected through the
requirements we normally have.

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So right now we're at, uh, step zero,
the door is closed to such people,

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we want to change that, and we
want to go from zero to one.

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In late 2022, that one was
announced as John McFall.

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John was born in the south of the
UK in 1981. Now the age of 19,

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he suffered a motorbike accident that
resulted in the amputation of his right

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leg. He was already a keen
athlete by that point,

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and has gone on to many successes,

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including the bronze medal in the 100
meters at the Beijing Paralympic Games in

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2008, and the Paralympic
world champion in the two,

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200 meters in 2007.

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John has also served as a foundation
doctor in the British National Health

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Service.

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We need to announce they were looking
for a candidate with a physical

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disability. And I looked at the person's
specification and I thought, wow,

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this is, this is really aspirational.

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This is a very brave and
very bold thing to do. Uh,

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and with my broad scientific background
and vast range of experiences, I,

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I felt compelled to try and help
ia, uh, answer this question.

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Can we get someone with a
physical disability, uh,

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to do meaningful work in space?

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I think that I can bring lots
of things to feasibility study,

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but I think in particular, I
can bring inspiration, you know,

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inspiration that science is for everyone,

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but inspiration that potentially
space is for everyone.

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The European Space Agency have something
called topical teams projects funded by

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the space agency that support
scientific research by creating forums

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based on a specific topic of interest
to Issa and its future scientific

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direction. The topical team,

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considering the feasibility of para
astronauts started its work on Friday,

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the 1st of July. Invited to be
part of it was Mike Miller Smith.

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Mike is the c e o of Arability, and I
caught up with him earlier this month.

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Arability is a charity which exists
to make aviation accessible to

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people with disabilities. So in its
simplest sense, we do that practically.

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We, uh,

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support all sorts of disabled people
with literally every disability type of

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physical disability, perhaps a sensory
impairment or a learning disability,

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even a mental health, uh, problem.
We all give somebody access.

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So we've got a number of light aircraft,

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which have been especially
specially adapted with, um,

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modifications to make them accessible.

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We have special equipment like the
hoist that can lift, for example,

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a wheelchair user out of their wheelchair
and into the pilot seat, literally.

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Um, so that's a really great physical
way to introduce disabled people to the

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magical flight.

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Seeing the world from a new perspective
and the challenges of learning to fly

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have a really transformative effect
through to the other end of what we do is

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really about advocating the disabled
people in the world of aviation and

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aerospace.

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So to hopefully demonstrate to
organizations like airlines,

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airports, manufacturers, um,
more knowledge about disability,

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so the services they provide, the
people that they employ are disabled.

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So hopefully having a bit of a society
influence and benefit as well. So,

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uh, yeah, there's a lot on our plates,
but really in its simplest sense,

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it's about making, uh,

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the sky accessible to disabled
people for fun, for travel,

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and maybe even for a job.

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I've always had an interest in aviation
since I was sort of early teenage

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years, really. Um, I, uh,

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by chance came across aviation,
lived relatively narrow and airfield,

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and sort of popped along on my
bike to go and find out more. Uh,

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and they had a scheme to introduce young
people to fly a connect ship. And, uh,

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so I learned to fly glider when
I was a teenager and quickly took

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to that, became a,

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a gliding instructor and became part
of the junior British colliding team,

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and sort of got bitten by the
Barger. When I went to university,

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I worked at the local flyer school at
Cardiff Airport and got paid in flying

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hours on, on a weekend and did
my private pilot's license.

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So from that point
forward, I just loved it.

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And Trey was training to become a,

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a commercial pilot when unfortunately
I started to become disabled.

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So, uh, I have a, a, a disability
called muscular dystrophy,

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which effectively means that my
muscles get weaker or weaker over time.

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So when I started to notice, I wasn't
as strong as I used to be. I, uh,

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unfortunately had to change careers, but
I've always stayed studied in aviation,

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and now I'm working for the charity,
helping other disabled people to fly.

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The aircraft that we
use are light aircraft,

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so they're certified light aircraft,
so two seaters, four seaters,

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six seaters, um, and, um,

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adapting mainly with a hand control such
that somebody with a love disability

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can operate the rudder
and the brakes with their,

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with their arm effectively rather than
using their feet and legs. Can you.

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Tell me a bit more about that? Seeing
the world from another perspective?

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One of our mantras, um, is that,

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if I could fly, what else can I do?

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So I think disabled people don't
always get the chance to do exciting

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things like fly an airplane.

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They don't get the chance to perhaps
make choices or even to experience

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risk or make choices about risk.

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So the sky is a very good environment
to do all of those things.

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So you're almost doing
something that's active,

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going out on an air field, getting in and
out the airplane, however you do that.

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Uh, learning about flight, learning
about technology, the meteorology,

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the airspace using the radio,
the the systems on the airplane,

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that stuff gets the brain
working. Uh, and we find people,

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if we even quite profound disabilities
actually really, really take to that.

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But obviously when you're up there seeing
the, the world from above the cloud,

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so that's just a great place to be. And
we often hear that people say to us,

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when I'm flying, I'm leaving
my disability on the ground.

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My brain is only thinking about good
stuff. It's concentrating on the flight,

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on the navigation of that amazing view.

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And any pain or any other issues
genuinely get left behind.

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So we often hear that the only true
respite from disability happens

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in the.

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Sky. And as we've heard, the
sky is no longer the limit.

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Because of our expertise
over the last 30 years around

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supporting disabled people in a
challenging environment. Let's face it,

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aviation, uh, airplanes, uh, it's,

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it's somewhere where we've had to really
work hard to think about accessibility,

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practicalities safety, safety
cases, adaptions to the aircraft,

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so to, um, there's a lots
of carry throughs and,

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and similarities with the
world of space flight with,

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with low earth orbit in terms of,
you know, accessibility, safety,

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and sort of strategizing,
uh, the medical side as well,

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and what the challenges would be.

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So we've been working with a topical
team with some academics, uh,

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and those involved in the space industry
to look at the accessibility of space

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and the challenges of disability,
disabled people working in space,

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I guess initially, and then the potential
for space tourism, but ultimately the,

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the real future, um,

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human beings going into space
and going into planetary.

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We can't leave one fifth of the
world's population behind people with

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disabilities. You know,

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we've got to work out practical ways
that they can safely travel into space as

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well. So, um, yeah,

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we'd be working with the European
Space Agency funded project to,

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to look at this and see what some
of the practicalities might be.

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It's a real sort of privilege
and really exciting to be, uh,

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part of the future,

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genuinely being part of projects
which are going to change

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humankind forever in the future. You
know, we are gonna do this, you know,

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I think anybody with any
scientific interest shares that,

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that belief that we, we we're gonna have
to do this for, for so many reasons,

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and to be part of effectively
changing the d n a

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of the future of space flight, future,

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future of humankind to make sure
disabled people could do this, uh,

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is, uh, is brilliant. How.

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Did it feel when you see the
European Space Agency saying, right,

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we're putting out a call
for para astronauts?

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It was exciting a year or two ago,
uh, and even more exciting a few,

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a few weeks ago. To see that John McFall
has been announced as the first Easter,

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uh, para astronaut, um,
is, is really exciting.

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Obviously the fact that
he's a Brit is great, uh,

225
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and the fact that actually he lives
locally to here and we've already reached

226
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out to John to maybe get into, uh,

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come and fly one of our airplanes
and show him some of the,

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00:14:27,860 --> 00:14:32,480
the technology we use. So, uh, we, we
hope to, to meet John this year as well.

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So, um, but in the background,

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we've got these exciting projects
looking at the physiology and the,

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00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:42,440
the medical requirements
and the technical, uh,

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realities of space flight
for disabled people.

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We'll hear from the lead scientist
on this project later in the podcast,

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but I wanted to know how
it's been from Mike's.

235
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Point, point of view. Uh, we, our new
project started last year. This is the,

236
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,360
uh, uh, ISA funded power astronaut
topical team, if you like,

237
00:14:59,710 --> 00:15:03,520
with subject matter experts.
So we've got academics, uh,

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led by Keys College who
are leading the project,

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00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,160
academic institutions
from around Europe, uh,

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ourselves as the sort of disabled
community or representing the disabled

241
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,280
community. Uh, and we had a
workshop, uh, last November,

242
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which was great to get
face-to-face really,

243
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and a talk through and strategize and, uh,

244
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almost look at that sort of top level
one of the outcomes we're looking

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00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:32,540
for. Uh, so that was a
nice classroom se session,

246
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but then the weather was nice.
So we opened the hangar doors,

247
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got the airplanes out, and uh,

248
00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:43,060
these space scientists went
flying with disabled pilots.

249
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So great that they can actually go
up in the sky with a disabled pilot,

250
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see the adapters that we use.

251
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I think more sort of how,
how, how it all ties together.

252
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Would you go to space? I've,

253
00:15:57,260 --> 00:16:00,500
I've asked that question
to myself a few times,

254
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,660
and the answer is definitely
yes. Yeah, surely there's,

255
00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:06,580
there is a little bit of
risk there, but, you know,

256
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just to talk about risk briefly,

257
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I think it's important to mention that
disabled people are very familiar with

258
00:16:13,780 --> 00:16:18,660
risk because sometimes we can't
do things as quickly or as

259
00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:20,340
easily as able bodied people.

260
00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:24,060
And the analogy I use is
that I have an adapted car,

261
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which I drive myself,

262
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:29,060
which has got a computer controlled
joystick steering system.

263
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I can literally control the whole vehicle
with my fingertips and I drive the

264
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vehicle from my wheelchair and I
have an electric, uh, hydraulic ramp,

265
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which comes out the side of the vehicle,

266
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which is how I drive the wheelchair
out of the, out the vehicle.

267
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,980
But let's say I was driving like the
motorway and the vehicle had a problem,

268
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maybe caught fire, you know,

269
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I know it takes me a minimum
of five minutes to get out
there outta the vehicle,

270
00:16:55,690 --> 00:17:00,390
but I make a choice, an informed
decision to effectively, you know,

271
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my freedom at the very low risk of
having that issue means that I make the

272
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:08,950
choice to drive a vehicle and
have an independent life. So, um,

273
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going into space, I
realize it is, you know,

274
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not the safest thing you could
do at the moment, at least,

275
00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:18,430
but I make an informed choice
that I'm gonna do that.

276
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And I think the balance of seeing the,
the world without unique perspective,

277
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and I'm a bit of a science geek as well,

278
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the fact that I could do some science
experiments up there and make a

279
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:33,110
contribution as well, hopefully would
be, would be great. And I, you know,

280
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:34,790
I could almost be a
Guinea pig, couldn't I?

281
00:17:34,790 --> 00:17:38,510
With muscle weakness and breathing
with a ventilator, you know,

282
00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:42,710
what would that be possible
in space? But interestingly,

283
00:17:42,910 --> 00:17:45,430
given that all my muscles
have gone already,

284
00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:50,300
and one of the big problems in space
is muscle wasting a muscle loss,

285
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you know,

286
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,700
maybe I wouldn't be impacted quite so
much cause I've got no muscle to waste.

287
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:58,780
So, you know, so there'd be some
interesting questions to answer,

288
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:59,530
wouldn't there?

289
00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:01,660
Sounds like you're
volunteering, Mike. Well.

290
00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:04,260
<Laugh> don't care what my other half say.

291
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:06,700
<Laugh>. Currently astronauts,

292
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:10,780
people go into space with the exception
of a couple of people who've paid to do

293
00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:13,740
it. And even though you've had to
go through quite a lot of training,

294
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,660
are you thinking about it
from that side as well?

295
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:21,070
Yeah, so I think there needs to be a
paradigm shift in terms of thinking,

296
00:18:21,410 --> 00:18:25,150
and clearly Issa are doing that,
and I know Nassar are as well, um,

297
00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:30,030
that they're sort of test pilot
levels of fitness, the, you know,

298
00:18:30,130 --> 00:18:32,390
PhD level of e education.

299
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:37,430
What we tended to see in the astronaut
Carter communities of the world are

300
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:41,390
changing because if space is
truly gonna become accessible,

301
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,470
it needs to represent the spectrum
of ability and physical capability,

302
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,060
uh, within the wider population.
So I think, you know,

303
00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:54,340
again, early to fly is a good analogy.

304
00:18:55,290 --> 00:18:58,140
Over the last 20 or five 30 years,

305
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,700
the disabled community has worked with
aviation regulators to find safe ways

306
00:19:03,710 --> 00:19:07,860
to train disabled people, to allow
them to become licensed pilots,

307
00:19:08,370 --> 00:19:11,020
even, you know, to travel on
an airliner as a passenger,

308
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:13,740
although that's still
fraught with some difficulty.

309
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:18,300
It is slowly improving in
terms of technology used,

310
00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:19,813
aircraft design,

311
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,260
and also attitudes and training
of those providing that service.

312
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,270
So the space industry will need to
reflect that. So we'll need to become, uh,

313
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,230
capable of thinking outside
the box to try new things,

314
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:40,270
to look at new ways of managing
risk, to adapt environments,

315
00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:44,990
to adapt training techniques and
adapt the way individuals are assessed

316
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,910
to, to go into space.

317
00:19:46,910 --> 00:19:51,070
So I think it needs to be sort of
all of the above to make it possible.

318
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:55,510
Because you've talked about this change
in perspective from seeing the b the

319
00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:57,030
world from above the
clouds, obviously the,

320
00:19:57,130 --> 00:20:02,070
the ultimate of that is the overview
effect. This view that astronauts get,

321
00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:05,790
people who go into space get the
view of the blue marble. And is,

322
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,990
is that what draws you to want to go to
space? Is it to look back at Earth? You.

323
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:12,870
Know, when you see
interviews with astronauts,

324
00:20:13,650 --> 00:20:15,670
you see them talking
about their experience,

325
00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:19,430
you can see the profound effect
it's had on them as human beings.

326
00:20:19,870 --> 00:20:20,950
Quite often now,

327
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:24,990
particularly with the concern
around climate change and
some of us sad political

328
00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:28,990
issues and war and conflict we're
seeing around the world, you know,

329
00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:32,150
they all re they are all
very resolute. It's saying,

330
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:34,470
when do you see the world
from that perspective?

331
00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:40,590
You can see it's one ecosystem,
ultimately it's one mankind, it's

332
00:20:42,090 --> 00:20:46,070
the planet we've gotta look after. And
you don't see those political boundaries.

333
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:49,000
And I think to experience that clearly,

334
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,840
that would be an amazing viewpoint
to have and to be part of,

335
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:55,760
of, of change. Again,

336
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,150
I know a lot of astronauts do try and
get involved in some of that change and

337
00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:04,990
being part of influencing the future
and hopefully removing some of the

338
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:09,350
issues that we face. And I think, yeah,
that, that would be the same for me.

339
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,430
Clearly the view is amazing. Clearly
everyone would look out to them,

340
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:14,550
look out the window all day,

341
00:21:15,090 --> 00:21:19,750
but to actually get that perspective
and then use that for good

342
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:22,110
afterwards would be a, a real privilege.

343
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:23,950
We'll hear from Mike again later,

344
00:21:23,950 --> 00:21:27,910
that this topical team as a
research group that spans Europe,

345
00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:30,190
and here's the leader of that research.

346
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,630
My name is, uh, I deju, I'm a
lecturer, Kings College London.

347
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,110
My, I'm lecturing an anatomy
and biomechanics. Um,

348
00:21:39,250 --> 00:21:44,030
but today I'm here, I guess to talk about
our space research. It's quite buried,

349
00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:48,110
but, um, we've been, uh, given,

350
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,990
uh, funding and support from
the European Space Agency, um,

351
00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:56,110
for our topical team on
the para astronaut project.

352
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,630
We try to understand the
physiological, um, challenges,

353
00:22:00,630 --> 00:22:03,630
but also advantages of, uh, um,

354
00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:05,830
para astronaut in a space mission.

355
00:22:06,370 --> 00:22:11,150
And recently we've been awarded
a UK space agency, uh, grant,

356
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,550
uh, to create a community of people
who want to engage with us, uh,

357
00:22:15,550 --> 00:22:17,830
to make this, uh, mission successful.

358
00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:21,230
Especially considered that Isa uh,

359
00:22:21,410 --> 00:22:25,270
has recruited the first bar
astronaut and is British.

360
00:22:25,650 --> 00:22:29,070
How does that come about with,
with issa? Do you, so do,

361
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:31,350
do they put it out there
that they want some,

362
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:33,470
a research team to do
this and you apply for.

363
00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:37,670
It or? So I've been trying for years,
so to get funding for this approaches,

364
00:22:37,670 --> 00:22:42,130
and I guess I was, I was not
with either right time. So I,

365
00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:44,370
I submitted this to
several places for years.

366
00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:49,010
What happened is in 2021
European Space Agency, uh,

367
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:50,250
called for new astronauts,

368
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:55,170
and in that call they also include
a call for par astronaut to be

369
00:22:55,890 --> 00:22:57,490
involved with the feasibility project.

370
00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:02,050
They call it Par Astronaut Feasibility
Project. When that came up, uh,

371
00:23:02,050 --> 00:23:04,890
was announced in 2021, I
thought maybe this is the time.

372
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:09,850
So topical teams are, um,
always, always open with visa.

373
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:13,490
So, um, they are three main theme and,

374
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:17,050
and the one we are interested
is the health science anyway.

375
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:22,410
And essentially, uh, they provide
use to submit an application.

376
00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:27,130
They will provide funding for up to
two years for experts to essentially,

377
00:23:27,660 --> 00:23:31,970
um, provide opinions or, or through
the literature on a particular topic,

378
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:37,650
and therefore then come
up with recommendation and
report and things to do next

379
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:42,130
in this particular area.
And I guess, um, uh,

380
00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:45,050
they needed somebody for this, uh,

381
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,600
and that's why we were
successful with that. So.

382
00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:52,080
But, so you've been thinking about
this for a while, then. What,

383
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,360
why were you thinking about it?

384
00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:57,440
Because I am. So to me, uh, the,

385
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,480
the disability experience by
somebody is, has two elements.

386
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,400
One is the physical impairment. If we
are thinking about physical disability,

387
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,760
one is the impairment per se,

388
00:24:07,220 --> 00:24:09,840
but the other thing is the
interaction with environment.

389
00:24:10,530 --> 00:24:15,390
So if you think about the stupid example,
maybe, but if you think about, um,

390
00:24:15,670 --> 00:24:19,830
somebody in a wheelchair getting
off an on and off a curb, uh, the,

391
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:24,630
the disability experience
is higher if there is no,

392
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,550
um, slide sort of thing,
or there is no, um,

393
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,350
so if the interaction with environment
essentially becomes a barrier.

394
00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:35,670
And I think that when we think about
different environment and different

395
00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:40,430
interaction with environments, space
is a huge different interaction,

396
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:41,510
different environment.

397
00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:46,310
And I believe that then the disability
experience could be a lot lower,

398
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,590
if not becoming even an advantage in some
cases with specifically disabilities.

399
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,790
So from a scientific point of view,
I thought, well, we need to try to,

400
00:24:55,790 --> 00:24:57,270
what we know about our physiology,

401
00:24:57,530 --> 00:25:02,430
the human physiology is based on
earth and it's a beautiful planet, um,

402
00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:05,220
but has its own constraints.

403
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,060
And what happens in space when
there is reduced garity, when,

404
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:14,580
um, you know, there are other conditions
that we don't know much about,

405
00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:19,940
or whatever we know about is
based on able bo people with,

406
00:25:19,940 --> 00:25:24,860
uh, without a disability and
tends to be very fit, um,

407
00:25:25,060 --> 00:25:26,740
traditionally. Um,

408
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:31,660
so we don't know the adaptations
and the changes in the broader

409
00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:35,220
population. So that's
where I've come from.

410
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,940
Are that space and
interest for you generally?

411
00:25:37,950 --> 00:25:41,740
No. Was a postdoc doc in previous job I
was involved with some space research.

412
00:25:41,950 --> 00:25:46,180
Um, uh, we were looking at the, um,

413
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,060
mak uh, wasting after six months on
the, uh, international Space Station.

414
00:25:51,670 --> 00:25:53,380
So I was lucky enough, uh,

415
00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:57,860
to be in the right place at the
right time at the time. Um, and I,

416
00:25:58,910 --> 00:26:02,100
we collected data before
and after, um, uh,

417
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:06,940
six months on space mission,
on a few, a few astronauts.

418
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,860
And that obviously being an
engineer, I start thinking, oh, uh,

419
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:14,500
there are quite a lot of things happening
in space, uh, to the human body.

420
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:18,900
Um, so it's always been the back of
my mind. And when I joined Kings,

421
00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:23,020
I found out there is a strong tradition
at Kings about aerospace research.

422
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,220
And I, I was, again, the
right place at the right time,

423
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:29,780
uh, to develop this type of research.

424
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:33,340
My main research is biomechanics and
understanding how the brain controls

425
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,300
movement. Uh, but um, yeah,

426
00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:40,060
I always think that our understanding, uh,

427
00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:44,960
of the physiology is limited
because we test or we,

428
00:26:45,770 --> 00:26:49,360
um, essentially study the
same type of individuals.

429
00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:53,680
So I'm trying to broaden the
horizon in that, because I,

430
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,280
it's not just because it's
the right thing to do.

431
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,160
People think the wide savior approach,
which is not what I'm trying to do here.

432
00:26:59,550 --> 00:27:03,560
I also believe that we have a limited
understanding of human physiology because

433
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,400
of the limited population
that we are testing.

434
00:27:06,290 --> 00:27:10,600
So tell me about, uh, the moment
when Issa say yes. What, what,

435
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,520
what do you do next?

436
00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:13,920
Oh, I was like, oh, finally.

437
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,233
<Laugh> <laugh>.

438
00:27:16,550 --> 00:27:20,640
It's Cause you try so many times and
everybody says, oh, it's very good,

439
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,340
but no for us, or no, it doesn't,

440
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,260
you know, most funders said it, it
affects a very small, uh, population,

441
00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:35,900
which I think it's true
now. But we've, uh,

442
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:39,300
you know, commercial space flight,
this may change soon actually. Anyway,

443
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:42,420
what happens after Asia
said? Yes, well, um,

444
00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:47,310
it's exciting because we have
a strong team. Uh, we have, uh,

445
00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:51,710
people from academia, but as you
met, uh, uh, Mike from Arability,

446
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,590
we also, I also try to engage
with other charities, uh,

447
00:27:55,590 --> 00:28:00,230
with slightly less success, but
we have a strong team. Um, and,

448
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,030
uh, it's a complete blank ambu.

449
00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:06,240
Nobody's done anything like that.

450
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:10,400
And when you think about this particular
project is about also looking what's

451
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,600
already published, there is
nothing published in this area.

452
00:28:14,490 --> 00:28:18,280
So we go into Arability because of
their experience with, um, aviation,

453
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,280
which is a close, close enough, um, war.

454
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:27,680
We also go in my, some of my research,
or at least interest is on, um,

455
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:28,760
para-athletes.

456
00:28:29,050 --> 00:28:32,760
So we going also there to
try to understand whether
some of the adaptation and

457
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,840
some of the changes study
in, in para-athletes, uh,

458
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,880
can be then transferred
to para astronauts.

459
00:28:38,410 --> 00:28:42,800
So as it's a blank canvas and
we are learning on the goal.

460
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,600
And also the other thing is well
forum ivory tower researcher,

461
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:52,360
you start thinking it's not published,
but it's not, it's out there. So like,

462
00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:57,080
um, the adaptation, their ability,
um, designed for their own, um,

463
00:28:57,350 --> 00:29:01,120
purposes, they're out there, are busy,
they're patented and everything. Well,

464
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,900
obviously from an academic perspective
you may not be aware of them, but it's,

465
00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:08,780
it's good to not just look
at and read papers and,

466
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,500
but it's also going out and getting,
uh, our feet a bit, you know,

467
00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:16,300
on the ground on these sort of
things. So it's quite exciting.

468
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,260
But if you started in July last
year mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

469
00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:20,980
what are you finding? What, what,

470
00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:22,900
what's coming out of the
research you're doing?

471
00:29:23,010 --> 00:29:26,780
What we finding are too many
things, in my opinion that we need,

472
00:29:26,780 --> 00:29:29,540
and that's why we got the
UK Space Agency grant.

473
00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:33,900
Now we need to engage with the
community. We feel, maybe I'm wrong,

474
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,660
but, uh,

475
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:38,940
people with disability have not been
involved so much with this conversation.

476
00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:43,880
So there is quite lot we, we
can learn, uh, from experiences.

477
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:45,920
And it's very

478
00:29:47,780 --> 00:29:52,730
limited if we just think with
our own preconceived ideas.

479
00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:55,970
Because the other, when we
had a meeting, for example,

480
00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:57,370
we had a few meetings with, um,

481
00:29:57,510 --> 00:30:01,970
the team and we are writing
our paper about the arability

482
00:30:01,970 --> 00:30:06,130
experience, um, because sometimes, uh,

483
00:30:06,330 --> 00:30:11,010
there are preconceived or prejudgment
and say, oh, this is not possible, or,

484
00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:15,290
um, we, this should not be possible.

485
00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:20,130
And then solutions are
already used in the field.

486
00:30:20,540 --> 00:30:23,370
So, and also the other
thing that I learned, uh,

487
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:28,090
in our last meeting was
we need that engagement is

488
00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:29,170
important, um,

489
00:30:29,170 --> 00:30:33,790
with different communities
because we know very little and

490
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,990
um, and there is no
better thing than ask, uh,

491
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:41,670
rather than assuming,
um, an an answer, uh,

492
00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:44,710
whether it is in one way or
another. But, you know, just ask.

493
00:30:44,770 --> 00:30:48,270
I'm particularly interested in
the advantages of Paris at all.

494
00:30:48,270 --> 00:30:51,110
Are there definitely advantages or
you're hoping there are advantages?

495
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:51,830
What and what are.

496
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:56,110
They? I have a theory. So there are
main barriers to human space flights.

497
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,870
Um, some of them include, so there,

498
00:30:59,870 --> 00:31:03,890
there are barriers that
probably are the same for

499
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,370
astronauts and para
astronauts, like, you know,

500
00:31:06,370 --> 00:31:09,930
radiation exposure and dust and
that sort of thing. However,

501
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,550
uh, there are some, uh, human
barriers. So for example,

502
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:17,070
there is fluid shifts because, so those,

503
00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:21,550
those more related to gravity are fluid
shifts. So essentially, uh, fluids that,

504
00:31:21,550 --> 00:31:26,150
uh, with, uh, drought pulls
down from the head to the feet,

505
00:31:26,150 --> 00:31:31,150
sort of on, on earth in, uh,
microgravity is not pulled down.

506
00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:35,800
So, uh, astronauts tend to
experience what's called, um,

507
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,160
puffy pace in chicken legs.
So fluids tend to go, uh,

508
00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:45,320
in the head, which can
increase intratracheal pressure
and that sort of thing.

509
00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:49,320
So there is that, uh, there
is also astronauts, um,

510
00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:54,030
of muscle and bone wasting,
and that's why they are, uh,

511
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,150
exposed or they are requested to, to, uh,

512
00:31:59,470 --> 00:32:04,270
exercise for up to two hours a day to
minimize muscle wasting and bone loss.

513
00:32:05,130 --> 00:32:09,390
And there are other, uh, things, and I,

514
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,460
my hypothesis is some, uh, some
disabilities and in particular, uh,

515
00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:19,050
double leg amputation
could be an advantage in

516
00:32:19,050 --> 00:32:19,883
microgravity.

517
00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:24,810
The advantage are is because the
fluid shift will be minimized.

518
00:32:25,790 --> 00:32:30,690
And also they, if parish dedicated
the same amount of time, for example,

519
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:33,450
to training that other
astronauts do, they can, um,

520
00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:38,410
focus on the upper body and
therefore, um, the effects.

521
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,440
So they, they train more the upper
body for the same moment of time.

522
00:32:41,530 --> 00:32:44,720
So the effects on bus mass,
bone wasting could be lower.

523
00:32:45,580 --> 00:32:47,960
And also very in, for example,

524
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,560
if you think about videos from
the International Space Station,

525
00:32:51,070 --> 00:32:54,560
astronauts don't use their lower
limb, they don't use the legs,

526
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:58,320
they push themselves from the capsule. Um,

527
00:32:58,610 --> 00:33:00,800
so in one could argue

528
00:33:02,430 --> 00:33:05,000
that lower limbs are not needed.

529
00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:09,800
So that's my underlying hypothesis. I'm a,

530
00:33:10,170 --> 00:33:13,680
so every hypothesis can be wrong.
I'm not saying that this is,

531
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,800
but that's where I'm coming from.

532
00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:17,260
Do you have to go to space?

533
00:33:17,260 --> 00:33:20,980
Do you have to take para astronauts
to space to do that research?

534
00:33:21,150 --> 00:33:25,860
So we will need microgravity. And
because research is full of, uh,

535
00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:29,700
failures, not only successes, we try
to do microgravity research with visa.

536
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:34,500
And that wasn't successful yet. Uh, at
least hasn't been successful yet. But,

537
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:35,783
um,

538
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:41,540
we space will be the o the exposure to

539
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,300
the duration. It's, it cannot
be replicated in other, um,

540
00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:51,180
um, scenarios. So need
maybe is a strong word,

541
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,740
but if we really want to
prove the point, I guess, um,

542
00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:59,400
that would be the ultimate proof. But
yeah, we are trying to do other things.

543
00:33:59,930 --> 00:34:01,920
Um, um, in the meantime.

544
00:34:02,030 --> 00:34:03,440
When you say it hasn't worked,

545
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,840
you mean you haven't managed
to do it or when you did it,

546
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,400
it didn't work for some reason?

547
00:34:08,530 --> 00:34:10,160
No, we didn't get funded <laugh>.

548
00:34:10,410 --> 00:34:13,440
Ah, okay. Okay.

549
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:16,640
So well people are listening
to this then, you know, that's,

550
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,040
that's up to them to fund it, right?

551
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,560
That's, that would be lovely. <laugh>.

552
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,120
<Laugh>, yeah. So what would that,

553
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,400
what would that research look
like in microgravity here?

554
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,480
How'd you do that on earth?

555
00:34:25,970 --> 00:34:30,250
So there is the parabolic flight,
uh, which is what we try to do,

556
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:35,090
and essentially is, um,
uh, there are flights, uh,

557
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,530
from ISA or other organizations, um, they,

558
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,900
experiments is performed
within an airplane. Um,

559
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,500
and the, uh,

560
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:51,450
the plane flies through parabolas
and in some phases the parabolas,

561
00:34:51,450 --> 00:34:54,090
they, um, it's like when you, um,

562
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,690
take off or land on a normal
plane, but exaggerated.

563
00:34:57,980 --> 00:35:02,130
So on some phases of the
parabolas, um, people in that, uh,

564
00:35:02,140 --> 00:35:04,090
on the plane can experience, uh,

565
00:35:04,090 --> 00:35:08,530
about up to 20 seconds of
reduced gravity or microgravity.

566
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:13,410
It depends on the parabola. And
so essentially, um, there are,

567
00:35:13,410 --> 00:35:16,090
within a flight, there are about,

568
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,840
there are 10 to 15, up to 30,

569
00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:22,170
um,

570
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:26,960
periods of microgravity in
which you can test the effect of

571
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,960
microgravity on, for example,
human body, but also other, um,

572
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,400
non-human applications. So that's what
we were trying to do. For example,

573
00:35:34,170 --> 00:35:38,600
there is also a company
in the US that, uh,

574
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:42,200
have um, essentially, uh, promote, uh,

575
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,440
parabolic flight experience
for people with disabilities.

576
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,960
Would you link up with
them for the research?

577
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:51,920
I've been trying very hard <laugh>,
don't know why it's now happening,

578
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,160
but I've been trying very hard. Yeah.

579
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:53,560
Okay.

580
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,680
Clearly research plans and applications
for money don't always go smoothly.

581
00:35:57,930 --> 00:36:01,520
In fact, we'll explore that a
little more in next month's podcast.

582
00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:05,750
But there are hopes to take this
research in some other directions.

583
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:09,950
We're trying to, uh,
involve astronauts. Um,

584
00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:13,750
I dunno if you know how this works,

585
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:18,310
but you need to go through isa,
so European agency. And that may,

586
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,310
uh, um,

587
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:25,310
needs a bit more of a few more steps to
get that involved. But yes, we do need,

588
00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:27,270
because that's another good question.

589
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,190
Another question that we are trying
to assess is how our other crew mates,

590
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:36,810
um, feel and will work
with para astronauts.

591
00:36:36,820 --> 00:36:38,570
We don't want to create that divide,

592
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:42,210
but traditionally that
divide has been there.

593
00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:45,210
So that is also another important
thing because for example,

594
00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:48,770
if we think about iss uh,
six member of the crew,

595
00:36:49,580 --> 00:36:52,490
we also need to think about the other
five. If we have one para astronaut,

596
00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:55,920
we need to think about the other five.
And they are different nationalities.

597
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,240
They are not all astronaut.
We also have, uh,

598
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:04,160
astronauts from other countries and
other agencies. So needs to be, um,

599
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,590
it it it's a small environment and
things needs to be considered, uh,

600
00:37:10,590 --> 00:37:11,590
for successful mission.

601
00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:14,390
You mean there's, there might
be cultural differences.

602
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:15,583
Cultural differences, or maybe,

603
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:21,300
so going back to what we said earlier
about asking people and including people,

604
00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:26,020
there might be a preconceived idea
that somebody with a disability cannot

605
00:37:26,020 --> 00:37:29,220
perform a task, who cannot perform
a task as quickly or as well.

606
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,300
And we need to address and to understand
whether that idea is there and try

607
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:37,580
to understand how we can, um,

608
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:43,410
we can make the mission successful
and now we can change if there is

609
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,410
some, um, unconscious and slightly,

610
00:37:47,410 --> 00:37:50,290
maybe I'm unfunded by us. If.

611
00:37:50,290 --> 00:37:53,330
If you got all of this research
to land and it all happened,

612
00:37:53,590 --> 00:37:54,490
how long would that.

613
00:37:54,490 --> 00:37:55,410
Take? Well, uh,

614
00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:59,090
at the moment I think he's a co
feasibility project because they have not

615
00:37:59,090 --> 00:38:03,610
guaranteed a flight. We are
trying to make it happen.

616
00:38:03,610 --> 00:38:08,410
So that's why our team is very
keen to give as much support to

617
00:38:08,410 --> 00:38:12,650
the agency and try to make
that happen and not just, um,

618
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,300
and think about solutions
rather than just problems. Um,

619
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,220
and as I said earlier on, our,
my part is being an advantage,

620
00:38:21,290 --> 00:38:24,620
when I discussed this with
Visa, they didn't, they,

621
00:38:25,090 --> 00:38:26,500
they didn't be not believe,

622
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:29,460
but they weren't even
considering possible advantages.

623
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:32,180
So obviously it's,

624
00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:35,640
it's understandable that
people think of the problems,

625
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,160
think of the things that cannot be done,

626
00:38:38,420 --> 00:38:43,120
but I think we should start to change
thinking in terms of the timing

627
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,670
in this space. Uh, things
tend to change quite a lot,

628
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:53,030
but I think they are thinking
about three year time window.

629
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:56,830
I dunno whether that
is reasonable, but, um,

630
00:38:57,140 --> 00:39:01,310
I think that was the
discussion, but I'm not sure.

631
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:02,950
Next steps. Uh,

632
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,030
we have now this UK space agency
funding to get this community of

633
00:39:08,030 --> 00:39:12,630
experts and people with disability
working together. Uh, we are doing,

634
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,030
uh, we are trying to, uh, get
some more research on earth,

635
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,830
uh, about our possible solutions.

636
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,110
So yeah, the thing is not to complain,

637
00:39:27,930 --> 00:39:32,110
but it's not a lot of money and research
costs a lot of money <laugh>, um,

638
00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:33,630
especially in terms of time.

639
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,630
So we are doing maybe smaller
steps than I wanted, uh,

640
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:41,670
in this direction, but it's,
it's because of the limited.

641
00:39:42,110 --> 00:39:44,270
Resources. Uh, would you go
though, would you, like if,

642
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,590
if you were offered the opportunity to
go on like the vomit cup or even into

643
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:48,470
space, would you do It.

644
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,390
Depends on the duration. So when
I was, uh, doing this experiment,

645
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:54,990
I mentioned earlier, uh,
when we were in nasa, um,

646
00:39:54,990 --> 00:39:59,230
testing astronauts after six months
on the International Space Station.

647
00:39:59,370 --> 00:40:03,230
And I must when you, when
you see the conditions,

648
00:40:04,540 --> 00:40:08,330
um, it, it's a big toll on your
body. Uh, so for six months,

649
00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:13,120
to me it's too long. Um, maybe,

650
00:40:13,220 --> 00:40:17,400
you know, in the, uh, shuttle here
when were thinking about the two weeks.

651
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:20,240
So that sort of length, uh, that's okay.

652
00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:25,120
It's also consideration that now we are
learning something more about the, uh,

653
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,680
female physiology in space,

654
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,560
which we knew very little
<laugh> Hmm. For the long,

655
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,120
for a very long time. Uh,

656
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,640
so in the last few years we are
learning something about that.

657
00:40:38,850 --> 00:40:42,880
Um, but we don't have a
lot of information yet. Um,

658
00:40:42,970 --> 00:40:46,440
we obviously the end, so the
sample size is still very limited.

659
00:40:47,650 --> 00:40:50,990
Yes. Isn't it? That could
change, couldn't it?

660
00:40:52,530 --> 00:40:56,950
The work is done in that
area, uh, to change it and uh,

661
00:40:56,950 --> 00:41:00,150
it's great the work has been done. Um,

662
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,990
so now is the time to, to
not waste the opportunity.

663
00:41:05,060 --> 00:41:09,270
I think that's the problem. Um,
yeah, research in, in spaces,

664
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,190
uh, in space expression
tends to be quite difficult,

665
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:15,510
quite a lot red tape and, um,

666
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:19,470
and some people get
discouraged and as I said,

667
00:41:20,450 --> 00:41:24,140
it's very normal, um, to get
discouraged. And I'm not saying I'm not,

668
00:41:24,140 --> 00:41:28,020
I'm just saying <laugh> now I can do
this bit. Let's see what happens next.

669
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:32,140
<Laugh>, Mike Miller Smith is keen to
ensure that the research is shared in both

670
00:41:32,140 --> 00:41:32,973
directions.

671
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,600
Our ability is really excited and,

672
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,640
and hopeful that we can
be a gateway to the,

673
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,920
the wider disabled community to
engage with the space industry.

674
00:41:43,930 --> 00:41:48,040
So that's why we'll be hopeful to
do some work with para athletes

675
00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:49,880
and with other, uh,

676
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,800
people with disabilities of all
different types to start asking questions

677
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,040
about would they be interested
in going into space?

678
00:41:58,430 --> 00:42:00,400
What challenges do you
think they might face?

679
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,840
And as we start to find out more and
more data and knowledge about this,

680
00:42:05,110 --> 00:42:09,040
then we can start to replay that
back into the disabled community.

681
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,480
So we start the dialogue. I think
that's really important. So, uh, yeah,

682
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,370
it's great to be that gateway too
between the two society groups really.

683
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:22,370
Uh, the science is fascinating, some
of the stuff in terms of G tolerance,

684
00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:27,570
so particularly during reentry, when
the gene levels are at the highest,

685
00:42:28,170 --> 00:42:32,890
again, uh, if the blood is uh, able to
stay where it should do with the court,

686
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,610
then uh, g tolerance improves
for amputees in particular.

687
00:42:37,610 --> 00:42:41,090
So this is some of the research
that's gonna be done in Centrifusion.

688
00:42:41,090 --> 00:42:43,370
Is it other, uh,

689
00:42:44,350 --> 00:42:49,210
experiments just to find out what the
physiological benefits are for disabled

690
00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:50,530
people potentially in space.

691
00:42:50,780 --> 00:42:52,290
Uh, that leads me to another question.

692
00:42:52,750 --> 00:42:55,530
You practically volunteered
to go into space.

693
00:42:55,530 --> 00:42:57,250
Are you gonna volunteer
to go in a centrifuge?

694
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,290
Well, I'd love to. I think the trouble
is were my, you know, I'm six foot four,

695
00:43:01,290 --> 00:43:04,650
a big guy hoisting me into
an airplane is bad enough,

696
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,610
hoisting me into a centrifuge. That
would be another challenge. But hey,

697
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:11,570
these are some of the things
we need to tackle. Yeah.

698
00:43:12,140 --> 00:43:14,530
No, absolutely. You would
actually love to do it though.

699
00:43:14,530 --> 00:43:18,290
Genuinely. Oh yeah. Well, when I
was, uh, more able than I am now,

700
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,050
I used to love doing aerobatics,
so I've thought nothing of, uh,

701
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,690
flying an aerobatic, an
aerobatic biplane, you know,

702
00:43:26,690 --> 00:43:31,450
pulling five or six G minus two
or 3G used to love that on a sunny

703
00:43:31,770 --> 00:43:34,970
Saturday afternoon. So yeah,
I'm a bit of a g jokey,

704
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:37,730
so I'd love to love to get
back to do that in a centri.

705
00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:40,090
Okay, fair enough. What about
taking the G'S away there?

706
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:41,450
Would you take a trip on the vomit comic?

707
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,810
Absolutely. And if fact, you
know, Stephen Hawke's done it,

708
00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:50,410
so it's good enough for him as a disabled
person and it's good enough for every

709
00:43:50,410 --> 00:43:53,690
other disabled person. So I'd
very much love to do that.

710
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,130
Well, life for one,

711
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:59,410
certainly hope that Mike gets his wish
and goes on the folic comment and maybe

712
00:43:59,410 --> 00:44:01,170
even into space one day.

713
00:44:01,350 --> 00:44:06,290
And I also hope that that topical team
manages to get the funding that they need

714
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:10,250
to continue with this
fascinating research. As I say,

715
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:14,610
we'll be back next month when we'll
be exploring when research and PhDs

716
00:44:15,020 --> 00:44:16,850
go wrong. But until then,

717
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:20,610
you can keep up with what's going on in
the world of physics with the Physics

718
00:44:20,610 --> 00:44:21,650
World Weekly podcast,

719
00:44:21,850 --> 00:44:25,890
which you can find on the physics
world website physics world.com.

720
00:44:26,230 --> 00:44:28,050
And thank you very much for listening.

721
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:33,530
Physics World.