Portrait of a Lady on Fire: Autonomy & Actualization

Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Brittany Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment
purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms. Please
remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.
If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental
health provider. Hey everybody, and happy Pride. So today for our Pride
episode, we are doing Portrait of a Lady on Fire. This movie is
about a painter named Mary who gets hired to go to an island question Mark
in France. Question Mark Yes, to paint the portrait of a young woman
named Eloise who is being sold into marriage I'll say, against her desire,
and while she's there, the two fall in love for a like a two
week, three week affair that lasts a lifetime for them in their hearts.
I love that. And so today we're going to talking about autonomy and actualization.
We're also going to be touching upon the idea of grief within life,
and also we are going to be discussing suicide. So if that is a
trigger warning for anyone, just be know that at some point we are going
to talk about that. So skip forward if that's a hard topic to listen
to, but it felt important to talk about as this is an LGBTQ episode,
and suicide it is a unfortunate common component within that community. Unfortunately,
suicide is common in the LGBTQ community and the trans community in particular, because
we as a society, and especially in costume drama periods of certain time frame
that I don't know where this movie was set in actually to like place it
by the music in the art Harpsichord exactly exactly you were talking. I was
sorry, it's okay. I think we were just saying, you know,
in times before even now, it was of course worse than it is now.
It was worse and when people can't actualize that, it becomes something that
makes life feel like it's not worth having and then of course we'll be talking
about treatment and final thoughts as always, also just pointing out that there have
always been gay people. That's not a thing that just happened with modern times
or has always There have always been people who are gay. Yeah, And
I think this movie just continues to show that they existed. They just had
to be hidden, They had to be in hiding their whole lives for the
most part. And so this idea that there's just more gee people now is
just the idea that there's actually more just people living honestly and authentically. Yes.
And the same way that when you see people do the nice comparison,
which is left handedness, I'm left handed, and how people used to not
be able to be left handed, it got like beat out of them sometimes,
And how there's a big peak in left handedness at a certain point once
they let people actually be left handed and then it leveled out. And because
that was the actual percentage of people that were actually left handed once they just
let that be. So keep that in mind. Throw that at your uh,
sexist, racist, bigoted uncle at the next family gathering. That fact,
it's a good fact. It's an important thing to remember that human beings
have always had sexuality exist across a spectrum, and that in case you were
wondering about research that proved that, Alfred Kinsey proved that in Indiana Universities and
studies in what was that the fifties. Yeah, yeah, I've been there.
Yeah, that's cool. And there's a pretty good movie about it starring
Liam Neeson as Kinsey, yeah, where it covers that in it's him and
Bill Scarr's guard, right, yeah, and Laura Lenny yes, yeah,
as his wife. Poor Laura Lenny. She always has shit husbands. And
know they have the institute still the Sex Museum technically, I think as it's
called, and I went there on a field trip in grad school. Amazing
because I'm from Ohio, so it was like a quick day trip to the
Sex Museum and back. Cute. But you know that the research that he
proved in the fIF I d's or six d's or whenever it was that that
happened, I know, is a long time ago that showed human sexuality exists
according to his scale, which is called the Kinsey Scale, on a spectrum
of zero to six, zero being completely straight, six being completely gay,
three being totally bisexual, and three being totally bisexual, the other numbers being
somewhere in between. Yeah, which is now expands out and include like pen
sexuality and all the stuff that we have more words for nowadays. Right,
Yeah, And it's it is vitally important to understand that this is settled science.
Whether or not politics has accepted it or religion has accepted it, is
going to be irrelevant on this podcast that it's settled science. It's settled accepted
mental health. That homosexuality as it was once called in the DSM is not
considered a mental disorder, and no talk of such will be tolerated by us.
Yeah, it's we're going to talk about this and we're gonna nail it.
We're gonna nail it. We'rel it. But what we're gonna do is
make sure that we're being honest and within the bounds of accepted science. That
look, people have always, since the history of forever, landed on different
spots on the Kinney scale. And it's okay if you're a zero or you're
a six, and that's simple for you that you understand that I have no
interest in X, Y or Z genitalia that exists on another human That are
the same as mine, or I'm only interested in this people that have them
the same as mine. That's cool, but that doesn't have to apply to
everybody. Now, everybody name your number right now on I know mine,
mine's boring, so freakin straight, pretty pretty firmly zero, I'm a four.
Oh okay, I can see that. Yeah, yeah, representation matters
on this one. It does, as the resident pansexual on the podcast.
Yeah, so now that we've finished our ted talk, everyone feels loved and
included. Right. So in watching this movie, a big theme that showed
up for me was autonomy. You know, an autonomy specifically about being a
woman and about being a lesbian I guess, or at least not totally straight.
You know, we don't really know exactly because there's kind of some inference
from the Marian character of the brunette. Yes, that she maybe has had
affairs with men and women, but like because she's been pregnant, but who
knows. Yeah, so she certainly has. And then we see that Eloise
eventually does get married and have a child. Now that doesn't imply sexuality.
That's could have been the expected marriage contract of the time. So I don't
want to imply that everybody has a child has to be straight. We're not
doing that, but it's fair to wonder with these two if they fit more
somewhere in the middle of the scale, for sure. But I will say
my assumption is because Eloise was looking for a life outside of marriage to a
man, absolutely yeah, and so is Marian, So I think regardless,
these were two women that were looking for independence that was not common amongst women
at the time. And I think that's what I noticed right away with Marian's
character is that she leaps into the water. Like the very first scene with
her right where she leaps into the water after her supplies, I was like,
Wow, this is like a different woman than you typically expect from the
time. She has short her hair. She's kind of like doing her own
thing, like more of a masculine presence about her than I think is typically
seen during that time period. It kind of actually reminded me of the movie
The Piano, Oh, which is a movie that I also love that has
a very similar scene in the beginning when they're sailing it on a boat and
then something they love goes into the water and they try to save it.
Yeah, that's very true, and I think she definitely carries a more masculine
energy, and she talks about how she is kind of essentially shadow painting for
her father's business. She or ghost painting, whatever the word would be for
that. But yeah, she's painting as him. Yeah, painting as him
and is planning to take it over and just not tell the men so that
she can paint what she wants. And she paints men naked in secret.
That's not that hard. She takes a lot of risks that wouldn't be seen
as acceptable in the aristocracy of the time. Yeah, she definitely is a
woman who like something here in my notes is that she has a vocation which
is uncommon, and that vocation and the way it's like a family business too,
so it's something that is accepted within her family, maybe even encouraged.
How much freedom that gives her that must have been extraordinary at the time.
And you can tell how much jealousy Eloise has almost immediately about that of like,
oh, you have a vocation, you can do what you like to
a certain degree. Of course, she has a trade. Yeah, and
also like and also one other thing that I just was thinking of Brittany is
that she also doesn't have to travel with a companion, true of any in
any case, like she is on that boat by herself, carrying her shit,
and most of the time I don't from Again, from whatever time period
this this is from that, that's not something you were allowed to do.
So even her being allowed to be on that boat alone with men is even
out of the possibility of what I'm sure could actually happen at that time.
Yeah. So, okay, So for clarity, audience and for us,
you look it up right. I did look it up right in the blurb.
This is on an isolated island in Brittany, France. Yep. So
we can take that at the end of the eighteenth century, so it's you
know, we'll say it's seventeen ninety nine for argument's sake. Okay, all
right, so a few years before Bridgerton, at least Bridgerton's like eighteen thirteen,
right right, I think just before the Victorian period. Yeah. So
I think that's a great observation that Marian's able to move From what we've seen
in the movie, She's able to move pretty freely. Like there's no moment
in the movie, both in the beginning, which is arriving to the island
and also the scenes post island at the end kind of like the epilogue if
you will. Yes, she's also not there's not some like old nursemaid that
has to walk behind her, or some like assistant apprentice kind of like clerky
esque guy, or her dad even like I think the situations her dad or
her brother. Maybe she doesn't have a brother and that's why she's allowed to
move this freely in the world. Yeah, and it's possible, as you
know, just reminding myself of my French history, my ap World five apparently
expired or ap World History five that I got so many years ago because I'm
a nerd, this is this is probably the tail end of the French Revolution.
Mmm, okay, so there is a strong possibility that met and are
in short supply oh right about now interesting which maybe might also make the situation
with the marriage so grave, like the urgency of her mom being like,
well, the first daughter didn't work out, so we got to get the
second daughter in there to secure this like this line. And I wonder how
much also that's impacted even if they are aristocracy, which I think she's like
a comtest the mom I think I believe. So, Yes, it makes
me also curious what. I don't know, Maybe they're in a financial pinch,
because if that just happened, I'm not sure how that trickled down.
I don't know. And a lot about the French Revolution other than it was
bad times for the rich people, it was bad times for everybody. It
was the reign of terror. There are a lot of people getting beheaded and
jailed. And immediately after that, Napoleon takes over, and Napoleon went through
so many wars that men in France became in serious short supply, especially the
bigger ones, and because they get sent to war first in the front lines.
Okay, So and that the obviously, as was true in those times,
men of the aristocracy would be officers and they'd be duty bound to serve
and would be on horse and wearing fancy costumes and extremely well targeted by cannon
fire. Okay, So maybe if we were French, we would have more
understanding, like watching this movie, like placing it in that sense of like
maybe this was a time period and where there were less, like you're saying,
been less men available, so maybe there was more like organically more movement
allowed to women, similar to how like here in World War two, women
were able to do more things. Yeah, it would be somewhere around.
Yeah, but you can also tell that I got the feeling that Marian's been
raised though very independent, very confident, very sure of herself. Absolutely like
she seems like someone who doesn't isn't aware of how advantageous her position is.
Yeah, I feel like that feels true. That feels true. She also,
to me, feels like an only child. That sounds right. She
feels like an only child. She feels like that's why she is taking over,
preparing to take over her father's business. That's why she's been so independent,
because you have to also when you're running in circles with men, even
if she's painting as her father, she has to be very confident and very
sure of herself in order to do that. Correct And she never mentions a
mother. Oh yeah, she does not. And yeah, and you're right
that she's I think the first thing I wrote about her is that she's ballsy.
You know, it doesn't seem like she is worried about how she like,
she's not. She didn't hesitate to jump into the water. Maybe that
was the urgency of her supplies and YadA YadA, but it just it didn't
seem like she was. She never seems like she's worried about the vibe she's
putting off, or she goes into the house, she feels very at home.
Right away, she's smoking naked with a cigarette. Like Ben, you
said, that was very French of this movie, like recording. But too
bad, seeing as I have been to France and everybody smoked at the point
in time that I was there. I leave room for that to change.
But like they in two thousand and seven, they loved their cigarettes. There
was cigarette smoke everywhere. So yeah, I was like, that's exactly what
I thought. Thanks guys. No, But also I think the way she
moves, she goes into the kitchen and she helps herself like she doesn't seem
like someone who is apprehensive or cautious, Like she feels very confident in her
own skin, and her only limitations are her having to figure out how to
move through the world to be respected, which I agree with. I think
we see. I think all those things that we're projecting on her probably true.
That she probably was an only child, her mother may have died or
not been in the picture for whatever reason. She's raised by her father preparing
to take over the family business because she's the only option and she has to
be the artist she needs wants to be to be at the skill level she
wants to be at to be capable and accepted. And we see that in
the end with that kind of like smile about oh, normally Orpheus is painted
this way. She's like, yeah, I chose to do it this way
this time, and the other guy just goes like what she knows, she's
hot. Shit, She really does. She definitely does. And I really
agree with you. Her sense of confidence in the house, like showing up
someplace it's dark, she shows up, She's like, I'm fucking hungry.
I'm gonna go find the kitchen. She walks around, she checks out everything,
Like again, just like this sense of confidence where it seems like Eloise
very much is stuck in her room. Yeah, well, maybe he chooses
to be stuck in her room based on how she's feeling about what's about to
go down. Probably both well, I would say that, well before I
move on to Eloise, I think even too, like it's a good it's
good to think about the fact that Marianne maybe was raised alone by a man,
even though I'm sure she probably had like governesses or like female figures around,
cause it's like she wears her hair assured as she can get away with
it where she can still put it up. Like I remember thinking that's different
for a period piece. Yeah, to have a woman have that short of
hair, and yeah, she just feels like someone who is well. Also,
the scene in the end when the guy admires the painting and she immediately
says, it's me Like, she just feels like she's just trying to get
into rooms, but she's not worried about seeming like attractive. Yes, maybe
that's the thing I'm looking for. She's not trying to fit the male gaze
and be attractive to men or be attracted to society. She's just trying to
get where she wants to be, and she'll use whatever avenue she has to
to get there. But she's not worried about fitting in fitting in. No,
she's not. Yeah, she's doing what she has to do. She's
operating like a professional who knows that she's got it. She's good enough,
and she deserves to be there. I think we covered her pretty good.
Let's take a break there, and then I think I'm sure this is on
purpose, that the movie like juxtaposes Marianne with Eloise, right, and that
so much of what we talked about is circumstances that have allowed has allowed Marianne
at that time to move so freely still within like a lot of confines.
But she has a lot of privilege, right, I mean we could even
just name that she's white, right, that she's of money. All the
things we've talked about before are privilege, and Eloise is someone who does not
have the level of autonomous privilege that marian has. Yeah, no, she
doesn't. She absolutely does not. And this is a classic romance story of
opposites attract right. Sure. I did say it's very rom com trope when
they set up the whole she needs to be paid, but you have to
pretend you're just her companion. I was like, oh, I'm in I
know this, right, I figured you would be. I watched this and
was like, oh, Benjamin, I'm just trying. We're just trying to
like, you know, clash you up, buddy. No, it's I
didn't dislike the film, and I wasn't against watching it. Just that moment
I was like, typical, my wife did the same thing, both of
us. So, like we were laying in our bed watching this movie going
like, oh, really, so the trope part of it, not the
movie movies. The film is beautiful, but like looking at the trope of
it, all the tropes, which actually wasn't as big of a part of
the story as you think it would be. I was really I really liked
you know a lot of times, especially when we're talking about tropes and rom
coms, A lot of times that secret of her being the painter and of
having to paint her portrait would have become a much bigger lie. That would
have been the bigger imax, that would have been the climax of it.
And so it was really I really enjoyed them being able to address it in
the moment and address it like an adult and like halfway through the movie exactly
and just be like, Hey, here's the deal. I am the one
who's supposed to be painting you. I am painting you. That's what I
was, That's why I'm here. Yeah, I'm glad they resolved that.
And like maybe in the first third, I guess, yeah, yeah,
it was pretty quick. It was pretty quick, And I agree that could
have been a trope where they're like, like never been kissed of like surprise,
I'm an adult and she's like, how dare you? I let you
kiss me like a girl, and you're I'm a girl. Yeah. Yeah,
But I really do think that that's part of that. That is what
drove the attraction of Eloise to her, that seeing her be so confident and
be able to show that it is possible to live in a world with less
of these boundaries. And that's what kind of got her out of her shell
and allowed her to talk to her and let her in and ultimately fall in
love with her. Was seeing how confidence her ability to operate her you know,
Idgafnis. Yeah, because Eloise, the framing of the story right is
that she was a nun, a Benedictine nun. I think specifically I would
be really interested to know how she became a nun. Was that something that
she chose to do or is that something where how a lot of like second
children, like the spare child, whether it's a boy or girl, would
get sent off to the convent or the or become a priest, like they'd
get sent to like yeah, the seminary or whatever. Yeah, And so
I'd be curious if Eloise chose to be a nun, and maybe that was
her kind of taking advantage of her privilege as well her position, but also
of being like the second daughter that I don't have to carry on the lineage
of this family, so I'm gonna get as close to autonomy as i can
get, which ironically untils a lot about the time period was becoming a nun,
going to a convent, get me to the nunnery, you know,
And because she talks about how she liked the convent because as a woman she
could read, and like, the first thing she asks Marianne is did you
bring any books? Which so do they not have any friggin' books in that
whole gigantic house anyway? Maybe not? And then she was like, and
I got to listen to music and I got to sing. So it seems
like Eloise enjoyed ish for the time period. It's like she really found freedom
or satisfaction in being a nun because there were a lot of It just gave
her a lot of ability to do stuff that she wouldn't necessarily be able to
do as just like a wife or like a pretty ornament within the family.
Well, she said right away that she liked that equality was Oh she said
freedom and there's freedom and equality. Yeah, that's what she says. And
I remember when she said that, and I was thinking, that makes a
lot of sense, just being equal with the people around you. Everybody's a
nun, everybody's here to do the same shit, like we're all focused on
the same thing, and being able to be in that setting where she can
also do the things that you mentioned, Brittany, Yeah, she wanted to
do all those things and have this, So maybe she did choose it.
It feels a little bit to me like she might have chosen it, but
we don't have no way to know that. I say. Also, I
would assume that Eloise may have been aware that she was attracted to the same
gender pretty young, because most people are aware pretty young. And so also,
the convent is a place to go to escape heterosexuality, like having to
adhere to heterosexuality, like you can't get married if you're not, and that's
a very acceptable avenue as well, where you don't have to be subjected to
a marriage. And people also have pride in their kids joining religious orders.
So that was probably a really good third option alternative for people who were gay
at the time. You know, you go into the military, you go
into the convent, and you don't or the whatever, and you don't have
to worry about adhering to heterosexuality. So I can't imagine how horrible it must
have been for Aloise to be notified. Well, one, your sister died
and she talks about she got that letter from her sister. Yeah, and
then two that you are being wretched from this like safe haven you've sort of
found for yourself where you can be freer and just not worried about behaving as
a wife, and now you have to come to this and just be like
a placeholder for your sister. Like that must have been devastating. Yes,
I feel like the reason why she is I know that her mother is essentially
relegating her to her room because she doesn't want her to also attempt Yeah,
so, but I would imagine that Eloise wants to stay in that room anyway,
just being just grieving what she can no longer have access to anymore.
And also that she doesn't know what her future looks like because we don't.
Because one thing that we certainly don't find anything about is about this partner that
she's about to get married to, and again I don't think it's an important
part of the story. But also again that not knowing what her future is
going to look like, and it really makes me think about how really trying
to embrace the time that they have together because of that. Yeah, well,
and also going back to like autonomy, you see Eloise attempting to assert
her autonomy where she can, right which is refusing to let the first painter
painter painter painter, and how she like drew like drove him away. And
I think I wrote my notes good for her, absolutely, because she has
such little control over her life that one of the only things she can control
is being a brain being difficult and delaying or even ruining this arrangement, which
it seems like her mom is determined not to get ruined, because her mom
is also trying to find her own autonomy, which unfortunately she's gaining by sacrificing
both of her daughters. Yeah, you know, she's saying, I want
to get out of this house. I want to go back home or to
Milan, it will travel, And how I am going to obtain that is
by marrying off my daughter. And how little awareness she had that her daughter
was not reacting to the idea of having a portrait of her arrive in the
same way that her mother felt excited and honored by coming to a house and
seeing this portrait be the first thing that she saw. She's attached to this.
This is a big moment for her. This is like a no,
you're going to have an epiphany. It's like a person who's let's say they
are a famous guitarist and they say, no, I bought my child at
their first guitar and now they're going to be a guitarist and that's just their
destiny, without giving any slight concern for whether that child gives a flying crap
about playing the guitar. Yeah, and to see her be so convinced that
this is the right thing, which within societal bounds it probably makes sense,
but that doesn't make it right. And if one child was so against it
that she threw herself from a cliff, which mom seems very dissociated from,
Yeah, we need to do some work to wake up to reality and understand
that what you're doing isn't working well. People are in denial about mental health
now, Yeah, so who knows how much they were just bullshitting each other.
Then oh, we know she slept and fell off the mountain. Even
though that maid was like, bitch, please, Like as soon as that
Sophie was with her, she was like she she lept, she lept,
She did not cry out. Yeah, she chose yeah. And the mom
does know that because she won't let Eloise walk around by herself correct, So
she knows that, like, this situation is causing so much distress that both
of my daughters may want to die instead of being in it and just being
really flippant and whatever about it, which isn't uncommon either, you know,
like the generation above that has just accepted their fate can get very. We
see this now with like boomers and stuff can get very We'll just deal with
it, like I had to do it. And I think also like women
like this mom, I think, I don't know, I feel like this
might segue into like the grief conversation, but they at some point, I
assume, just accepted that this is what life is. You have to find
joy where you can. And if it's your pretty face or this portrait that
you get drawn of you, like, is that nice? Like just enjoy
the little bits of freedom that you can access and marriage will get you that.
You know, access to a man will get you that. And someone
like Marianne, like we're talking about like she's such a revelation to Heloise too
and that like, oh, like you don't have to go through Well Alis
did figure that out. That's why she went to the convent, Like she
found a way to get some of her needs met as a woman without having
to go through a man to get it. Yes, she did. And
that's I think a huge draw, right, It's a huge draw, an
attraction of like, oh, look, you're living a life that I wanted.
Yeah, you're living a life that I had I was pulled from to
Oh that's true because I would imagine that. And again this is you know,
a guess. Eloise had been in the continent for some time, and
since people pursue their needs instinctively of the time, it is fair to assume
that people who are living in another place where the only companionship they have in
dark monastic halls is another woman and that's what floats their boat. Have three
guesses for you. In the first two, don't count of what was happening
in that monastery or oldly ladies getting busy. I mean, there's that movie
The Little Hours that's about a convent that takes place in the fourteenth century,
and that's based on an actual book from the time. Like even though it's
a banana's satirical esque movie with like Nick Offerman and Aubrey Plaza and Fred Armis
and all that stuff, it's based on a real story about a bunch of
nuns who were just horning all the time, just trying to get laid either
with each other or by unfortunately harassing the stable boy basically, and how they
were all just getting busy, and that was based on a true story like
from the time period. So yeah, I also it does make me wonder
if you could like time travel to like Convince or whatever of the time,
how much there might have been like the open secret of same sex relationships,
yeah, or even just same sex fooling around. Absolutely, I mean we
can guarantee it. Yeah, pretty much human behavior Like humans will pursue all
of their needs instinctally within the confines of what's available to them. If you
are hungry and you can't eat because you have no money, what are you
going to do? Steal or get a job or make bread, make bread
or whatever. But you're I mean, you're gonna do whatever it takes.
And sure, and then you'll go to jail for a long time and jebve
A try to kill you. But you know, people, people will always
pursue their needs, and if they're not available through convention, conventional, societally
accepted means, we open up more channels in our head that allow us to
separate need from societal convention. Basically, at some point there's a higher order
of natural law you have to follow, which is that if you're hunger,
you're going to fucking eat and you will do whatever you have to. You
will trade, you will steal, you will trade your body, you will
do whatever you have to do to get food if you cannot find a way
to do it, that's within moral acceptance. And the same thing goes for
everything else, every other need, sleep, sex, everything, So wouldn't
guarantee. Yeah, people that didn't have any other acceptable means were sneaking into
somebody else's room at two thirty in the morning and getting down and going back
to their their own room like nothing happened. Yeah, all right, let's
take a break here. So I think the last thing I wanted to hit
in terms of autonomy within this movie is specifically Sophie, the maid. You
know, she feels she becomes sort of like a third character in their family
unit, if you will, their adopted daughter of the two lesbian moms.
And her story within the movie is becoming pregnant, right, and how once
the lady of the house the contest leaves, she starts finding ways to abort
right. And I'm pretty sure she got pregnant from the sailor, which is
why she wasn't because they kind of lingered on the those two together in that
dining room by themselves. The sailor came to pick up I wonder, I
did wonder if he was the dads the only man that's been That's true.
This movie is very absent of men. It is in a delightful way,
cackling. But yeah, I think it was interesting how we also see this
autonomy through Sophie and how I think what was interesting watching it too, And
I think kind of in the same vein as the idea that like people have
been on somewhat of the spectrum of sexuality forever. Also women specifically, well
people with female organs have been giving abortion, getting abortions and helping each other
get abortions forever forever, you know, and I think modern thing, yeah,
been happening forever because women have needed to have some control over their life
in some kind of way, and a lot of times, especially in the
period that we're talking about, a child would interrupt that and change your entire
life and your entire outlook and outcome. Yeah, because Sophie is one of
the few people in the movie, one of the only people we've see in
the movie that isn't well to do right. She's just like one of the
maids or the maid And what I liked was as soon as mary Anne picked
up on the fact that she was pregnant, it did slowly become like what
are you gonna do about it? You know, like are you gonna keep
it? Basically is what she asks her, and then she's been like nah.
Like the casualness of it absolutely was interesting, And I think my assumption
is the movie was making a point that women did this all the time.
You know, they knew exactly what to do. It wasn't a big production.
It wasn't this dramatic like discussion about sin or like ripping of clothes,
like oh, no, are we gonna kill a baby? She was just
like, I am not going to have this kid, and the other one
were like, cool, we'll help you out. And they try to do
it more like low key by just getting herbs and probably making some sort of
tea and hanging on a she like hanging on like a banister. I was
like, what's she doing? What are these methods of abortion that they were
trying to do where she was hanging from the ceiling after drinking that tea and
then I think unfortunately collapsed, which maybe that's what was the point of it,
that they were trying to fall down. I was wondering if she was
hanging herself and they were watching her. No, I think sure she wouldn't
die. No, I think she was just hanging by her arms. It
was my assumption, well, making her run circles like they were trying all
these tricks until they finally had to go to the local healer who gave her
a more formal abortion, and like I said, I like how natural it
all felt like it wasn't a big to do. They went to see their
local ladies, the local women's group by the fire, and they had her
check her up and she was like, no, you're so pregnant. Sorry,
and she was like, come back in two days and I'll take care
of it for you. And it was very chill, and there was no
morality play about it, where I feel like in so many movies like this,
like Dirty Dancing, Yes, if you get an abortion, especially if
you get a backdoor abortion, it'll almost kill you. I mean, I
think there's a lesson in that about just safety, medical safety. But I
think a lot of times that happens in movies because it's this lesson that if
you're going to have an abortion, it may kill you and you probably deserve
it, you know. And the only question that she's ever asked is do
you want to have a baby? Yeah? That was it. There were
no other questions asked and no judgment exactly, and I think Eloise seemed a
little hesitant, but more because she maybe didn't have as much experience dealing with
it. Yeah, And like something I mentioned before we started recording that I
thought was an interesting cinematic choice and I really liked was that while she is
having an abortion, there's two little kids. There's a baby, and like
a three four year old on the bed, just kind of chilling out like
one. It just said so much about how communal and relaxed. It made
me like mourn for sisterhood kind of, you know. And then also the
imagery of holding the shot with her holding the baby's hand, like feeling being
comforted by the baby while she's having the abortion, and how I think that
is making a statement of in these modern times, the pro life movement is
all very we love babies, we don't want to murder babies. Pro choice
people hate kids and they want to murder kids and they don't give a shit
about kids and that when really, I think what this movie was showing is
that Sophie like the baby next her, those hold in the baby's hand like
that. It's not about whether or not any disdain she holds towards children.
It's that right now in her life she can't have a baby. That's it.
That's the whole fun, that's all it is. That's what pro choice
means is that you can choose whether to invite a child, which is a
life altering thing into your life. And for her too, as a woman
in the time period she is making money and we don't really know her circumstances.
She's also doesn't seem like she's married. I assume she's not. And
so the way that this would fuck up her life as she currently knows it
would be huge. It's a huge risk to allow yourself to carry through with
a pregnancy at that time, you know, even now in certain ways,
but like especially then, Yeah, like people won't take servants. They won't.
They would fire girls if they were in a family way, as they
would put it. And so her having this abortion is her taking control of
her life, which is how abortions should be viewed, both now and then.
Absolutely absolutely. It was a powerful scene. It was a difficult scene,
but it was also taken to show with a lot of love and care
and concern that this is where this person feels they need to be and that's
it. She gets compassionate care. Yeah, and it's you know, acknowledged
how difficult this is for her. We see her sadness with it, but
also she's supported and able to get through and carry on with her life.
And if we don't complicate that with a political, inflammatory ideology that's been used
to get votes and control power and minds, and instead look at what is
a healthcare decision, it changes the perception that people seem to have really quick
And I will say the scene in the movie too where they do the picture
right after the portrait, right after the painting, I was a little like,
oh, why are you making her recreate that right after it happened.
But then my second thought was, maybe it wasn't that traumatic because it was
just a thing. It was just like another medical like not even medical,
but just another like ritual she went too, She went through to get to
the other side of something, and maybe because of how relaxed and communal and
natural it was, that maybe it wasn't a big deal and that her posing
for that portrait was a whatever thing. Maybe she was like, I don't
feel like it because I'm sick, Like I don't feel well, don't drag
me out of bed to do this portrait. But that it wasn't as traumatic
as I think it has been portrayed in other things. So I'm not saying
it wouldn't. It's not traumatic period because something's invading you and it's very painful,
But it did feel very chill, and it's in a way that like
I know women who have gotten abortions with that vibe where they're like, oh,
I got pregnant, I'll go get do I'll take the pill. I'll
have like discomfort, like a really bad period basically for a few days,
but I'm back into the swing of life. Like also, this idea that
having an abortion is this deeply tragic, traumatic mental health thing. Sometimes it
is because it's hormonal and there's all this stuff too, So I don't want
to act like it's not that it can't be that. But also it's not
always like that, right, you know, And a lot of the trauma
of abortion is the circumstantial stuff around it that creates like shame and if you
have to like go to someone you don't trust, and there's also like this
that's that's very scary. But it seemed like she went to someone that she
knows that isn't scary, and the environment wasn't scary. Yeah, So that's
just what I wanted to note as well. Absolutely I agree with some of
that. There's many as to points you're making that I think are true,
But my interpretation of that scene was very different. I don't think it was
whatever. I don't think it was chill, and it wasn't done and the
way I saw it, for shits, it was abortion itself for the painting.
Paint we're about the painting. The painting, Yeah, yeah, I'm
talking about the painting. The subtext I got from that Number one was that
I think are her head one? Oh, Eloise a sister and she was
the way she was drawn to that that did disturb her. I don't think
it. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it traumatized
her, but there was something about that that became post traumatic growth. That
reenacting that felt very much like the way children reenact difficult things that they go
through that they don't understand, and they'll they'll immediately start playing out those scenes
with their friends. And there was Wow, that's not how I saw it
at all. Ahead I want to I want to keep talking. I'm not
supposing I'm right. I'm just no, No, I know I had you
know it struck me different. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It looked
like trying to find post traumatic growth in the way that children play through something
and through the artistic medium that they had to do it, and side also
memorializing a moment of strength and community so that she could remember that she had
this experience and that she could do that. I guess what doesn't feel true
about that For me, I don't think you're wrong in that idea is that
the girl getting the abortion, it wasn't her idea at all to do that.
It felt like I don't know. Actually my initial reaction to it was
like, come on, you two ladies, like, don't try to be
like typical white feminist bullshit where they're like, wow, that was profound.
We should memorialize that, we should make a painting of that, because that's
women's strength, and like, let's not be considerate to like the more marginalized
person who actually went through the drama, like went through the situation. That's
how I viewed it as them like taking not taking advantage of her, but
not I thought they were being insensitive in the moment. I don't think so
for the idea of like an interesting painting. I don't think so. Because
they post her and they were like working with her, I think they were
wanting. I was like, let her ask sleep. She said she wasn't
asleep, Yeah, but I mean like let her rest. I guess is
more what I meant, like let her rest, don't drag her out of
bed so that you can make a piece of art out of this moment.
But I think it was it was them all three trying to play through and
process the imagery that was now stuck in their mind. That they were all
three seeing and feeling in different ways, and like getting a chance to process
that and see that through each other's eyes and rolls and feel in control again
in ways that made sense to them to play through that. I think it
felt very much like children playing, and like the kind of work that you
do in trauma work where you help people process the difficult scenes, the worst
moments of all that gets stuck and try to create a different cognition around them
that replaces the negative one. Because she did have to go through that,
she was hoping to do it with the running and the exertion, and she
didn't want to have the child, so she was on board. But I
think that was a step further than she anticipated, and having a way to
process through that helped her work through it. And then I didn't. The
first reaction I had to it was like, are they marginalizing this person?
Kind of like you're saying, but not that. It faded pretty quick once
they brought her into the play. What were your thoughts, Hannah Wow.
So I really thought that a part of the reason why they wanted to do
because it was something that happened and it was something that they that they did
together like documentation almost like documentation of what they did and what they all did
together, and more as something that women had to do at the time.
Hmm. Yeah, and there's the truth. Yeah, but not as like
a statement or like a but just as like this is a natural experience of
what it can be like to be a woman, but not in a But
I hear what you both of you were saying about marginalizing the Sophie in those
in those moments, and at first I felt unsure about what could be helpful,
like where this is going about doing it, but then there seemed such
ease about it. Yeah, that it felt like it was just the way
to end the day. Because I do think a point that they're making in
the movie with the art is trying to capture something real. Yes, yeah,
yeah, And so I hear but both of what you're saying, and
I think it, yeah, a lot of that, like let's talk about
like what's actually going on in women's lives, absolutely, and wanting to capture
something that feels less locked into conventions, and yeah, like getting an abortion,
I'm sure still was very taboo, like very backdoor obviously, like they
were meeting at night. It's like, I want to again, one of
those open secret things. I'm sure every woman knows where to go to get
an abortion, and everyone woman knows what to drink and what to eat to
more potentially have one, but it's still like a secret, well, the
secret lives of women, which I think a lot of this movie is about,
Yeah, exactly, you know, it's like and how when the women
are together, like even that bonfire, they're singing and they're drinking and they're
carrying on and little girls are there too. Yeah, you know, So
anything else I want to say there before we move on to the idea of
grief? No, no, all right, we'll take another break here and
be right back. So everybody get out your Bengo cards, because we're about
to talk about grief and grief in like a slightly different way, because Ben,
you wanted to talk about grief within the idea of life, grieving the
living, Yeah, which is a totally different thing than maybe we've addressed.
But we see people have to grieve the living all the time. In life
and grieving the end of a relationship is a huge component of grieving the living
that I don't think enough people assign the word grief to the end of a
relationship to understand that that's exactly what's happening someone something, and many relationships have
ended. In many breakups, that person has died. You don't see them
again, you don't feel them again, you don't have the same life you
once did anymore. And that's not much different than a death. In fact,
it could be worse because you can still see that person or evidence of
their life living on without you. And if you haven't been able to sort
out your feelings on that or thought you have and something causes a recall moment,
that's a triggered recall, you all of a sudden realize, oh well,
going through it in the moment was really hard and I had to associate
to both survive and go through that. But there's a lot of feelings in
there that I did not deal with that I did not know where there,
and we see that in that very powerful ending scene where Eloise is sitting and
weeping. Yeah, she probably wasn't able to grieve. It's likely she was
sent off to live this married life where she had to survive moving to a
new country, taking on a husband she didn't want, having a child she
may or may not have wanted, and having to likely find a compartment within
herself that this whole sexuality and identity and experience within her had to get shut
out. And when she heard that song again, the triggered recall flung the
locks off that box in a way that even her having that painting to look
at, which we know she kept with you because when or kept with her,
because when we see the portrait of her hanging in the art studio that
she posed for, it's pretty clear she knew quite well that what's the other
girl's name? It left Marianne, that Marianne would see it. Yeah,
she was had a little secret code with that book in that picture. Yeah
it was. It was the book with the page number that the painting you
know, that they did in that last intimate moment they had was on.
She was letting her know, I'm still thinking about you. And we heard
mary Anne say that she was sad, but she's okay now, and she
appeared to be in a very different place with her grief because she may not
have had to dissociate, and she had her art to work through her pain
with it. I guarantee she did, because they showed us that painting at
the end, the painting at the end that she did of Orpheus and for
Sephanie is that don't look at me, man, I got nothing. I
don't know what it's. It's the story where he looks back. Well,
I know the fable. The only thing he has to do is not look
back, and he can have his love for as long as he wants,
but he can't look at her. He can't yeah, and he can't not
do it. He can't turn away or not turn away. And as we
see that, we see she the whole point of that scene is that old
man telling her, oh, it's normally depicted this way or that way,
and she says, yeah, well, this one I did this way for
this is the female gaze. Motherfucker. I know that's fucking right. We're
gonna put that on the Bingo card. And we also see the painting in
the beginning of the film where she is teaching young other young other young women
to paint, and she has that portrait of a lady on fire, which
is what the name of the painting is which is a picture of when her
dress caught fire at the gathering with all of the women and she was on
the beach. Because the painting is is in the dark, you can tell
that it's in the dark, and that's what it's symbolizing. So even after
like besides her doing that painting that was at the gallery gallery that she also
had painted another I would imagine she's probably painted a couple of paintings of her
just for herself. Right, So for people that think art therapy is woo
woo, it most certainly is not. Which maybe that is why Marian seems
more settled too, Like you were saying, like she has a avenue,
a therapeutic avenue to process and also she is someone who has started with a
more independent free life and she continues to get to have an independent life for
her gender. She does. And when you talk about grief, I mean
Eloise's a gray life must be rife with grief like an ongoing Like a term
I learned from some parents I worked with is the chronic sorrow, which is
when you're in a situation that is going to be continuously difficult, And I
learned it from them via the perspective of having like a child that had a
lot of special needs and the chronic sorrow of that situation. And I was
like, damn, that is apropos. And so with someone like Elouise who's
trapped in this life where she's having to conform and hide herself, there's that
grief too, of like the chronic sorrow of almost like grieving the alternative life,
like grieving an alternative universe, the potential of having of being able to
have that life instead of the life that she currently has. Absolutely, because
I've heard, like on social media, I've seen older specifically older gay men
who will like be commenting on tiktoks of like young gay men who are just
living like this is this is a video of me and my boyfriends pening the
day together and being very like publicly affectionate together, and how older gay men
I've seen them like comment on those videos and cry, but cry in this
very like mixed grief way that you're talking about, Ben, where though they
feel so happy that young men or young gay people are able to live freely,
they carry so much grief that they didn't get to have those experiences that
they didn't get to walk down the street holding their boyfriend's hands, and how
it's such a bittersweet experience and such a complicated experience to both feel such happiness
for other people, but such grief and sorrow for yourself. Correct, Correct,
And it's exactly what we see with Elois in that scene is that she's
emotional but not distraught. She is processing from a point of relative safety.
I think, you know, and I know she's not safe. She's in
public and that's not the you know, most ideal spot, but no one's
looking at her. Well, she's in the dark, she's in a private
box by herself. She's pretty far away from her. It's loud, like
the music is loud. Everyone's distracted. So it is like you're like,
I think you're right, Ben, that it is a contained environment to have
an emotional response. That also, people can easily just misunderstand as she's so
moved by the music. But she is. But it's deeper than that.
Correct, It's much deeper than that. And there's no child with her and
that was not an accident, and no husband. She's just by herself.
Yeah, I wonder if she goes to music by herself. I would imagine
that she would like. That's like is as like a way to connect to
her to the life that she didn't get to have. I can't imagine how
much grief fellow Weise must have, not only just the things that we're discussing,
but also losing her sister, losing a life that she expected, losing
a lover that she can no longer see and no longer be a part of
her life. I can't imagine the amount of heaviness that she must feel on
a regular, on a regular basis, whether processed, you know, even
if she has the time and the energy to process process out some of these
some of this grief, it's an ongoing experience, kind of like what you
were saying, Brittany with chronic sorrow, it's an ongoing experience that she continues
to have. One of the most powerful things I ever saw about grief was
written in the Five Stages of Grief book, and I think it was stunning
that when are we done grieving? Is a question I get asked all the
time, especially as everyone knows that this is the kind of work that he
was the author of the book was writing about. And she flat said in
that book, when people ask me that I reply when you're done living.
Grief is something we carry with us. We're not always bereaved, which is
the point of time when we're so sad and distraught and devastated by a loss
that we are considered ill because of how bad we're just regulated right then.
And it's a normal thing that people expect to last about thirty days. But
grief, the process of finding a way to store the pain in a way
that it becomes accepted and that we derive meaning from it and can do something
with it, is commonly misunderstood that that's not the goal. The goal is
to make the pain stop, to never think about it again. And that's
not real. It's not a valid expectation. The number of clients that come
in I just want to, like, not be sad anymore about the loss
of X, Y or Z or the break up. And I can't help
you. Yeah, I can help you figure out what it meant in your
life and what it means to you now to have had those experiences and to
do something because of them, whether it's a change you need to make or
a tradition you need to uphold, or a stepping stone towards doing something.
Very similar, but with someone else who's better for you. Looking at loees
cry in that moment where she's hearing the same song likely triggered an emotional response
in her from music that couldn't have been triggered by anything else, because music
is the auditory translation of emotion. Yeah, it's like there's Catharsis in it
and then the Catharsis of crying. Yeah, it does make me wonder if
the way that Eloise deals with her life like lets the steam off out,
the pressure off of the chronic sorrow of her life, is by taking these
moments to herself where she can let herself feel and Cathart, let herself cry
and reminisce probably too. I'm sure in those moments she also does a lot
of reminiscing. And that's also something that's good with grief work, is to
build space to honor the thing that you're grieving, whatever it is. You
know. That's why we talk about rituals and that's why we do funerals and
stuff like that with like death is because we do like that stuff as human
beings, like we do like the act, because there is something also like
Catharsis about that, you know, and so I wouldn't be. And that's
probably also why like Eloise doesn't look around, Yeah, you know, she's
locked in, Like she doesn't notice Marianne because this is her time where she
mommy gets to the orchestra. Yes, and she has a big, fat
cry. So when she comes home, she doesn't throw herself out of a
window. I mean that sounds bleak to say, but that was probably That's
probably true. Yeah, that's probably how she is dealing with the grief of
her life. And and also, I will say earlier in the movie too,
like she does seem to be someone that is resilient and that she is
trying to accept the change in her circumstances, like she was accepting of the
life on the convent in the convent, and it seemed like that was something
she had made peace with or maybe even actively chose. And then even when
the fight that her and Marianne have was her also saying like I'm still getting
married, like, b can you be fucking for real right now? Like
I'm still getting married. This sucks, but this is life, and don't
make e you having a problem with me, are being mad at me about
it. Don't hold me getting married against me absolutely, because that's part of
this life, unfortunately, and I'm trying to deal. Yeah, So don't
come at me with this, bro, Like, can't this just be something
that we can have for as long as we can have it before the rest
of my shitty life starts? Yeah? Yeah, And I know that something
that I talk to people about a lot, and I bring up a lot
with people who have just maybe ended friendships or ended relationships, and I talk
to them about this is a loss, this is grief, and also that
not only are you grieving the loss, but you're also grieving the potential of
what you thought it was going to be. They say, well, I
really missed that. And when people say that, especially if it's an abusive
partner that they miss, I tell them I think you're really missing the potential
of what you the relationship would be. Yeah, And how that seems to
really set with people when I describe it in that way. And so I
think also just realizing that loss and grief is a part of being a human,
yeah, and that it exists in all different kinds of ways, not
just when you lose someone to death. No, it exists in every way
that someone leaves your life and I wonder how this movie feels for people who
watch it who were growing up during the times when it was less okay than
it is now to be outwardly gay, right, And how this movie just
shows like the chronic grief of like having to hide yourself and not being able
to live the life that you want, and the grief of watching other people
maybe be in love, like straight couples for example, and then you're not
allowed to have that with the person that you love. And that's a different
kind of grief too, absolutely, And that's like more of this like abstract
grief of grieving the things you want, grieving your aspirations, grieving your hopes,
grieving your desires. And that's really hard because that isn't finite, right,
isn't a thing where oh I lost someone or I even lost a relationship,
and now I have to move on and figure out how to keep that
in my life, like for my life around that grief. This more chronic,
abstract grief is more complicated and more like sits in your spirit in a
different way. And I would imagine if I was like an older lesbian to
watch this movie, I can see how it would like fuck your shit up.
Oh, yeah, I mean one of the things that I've been trying
to work on in people who've seen me in my office will know. I'll
draw you a little model of this that kind of expands on some of the
parts work and structural association models, but understanding when we must associate to get
through something really hard, we will create another reality of the life we didn't
get to live, and it will always live in a protected space inside of
our mind, a little secret part of you, which is probably like the
notebook, right, the drawing that she has in the Notebook. Sorry if
I'm going off what you're saying, No, it's okay. I I can't
remember if I ever watched all of the Notebook. I don't think I did.
Oh, and I'm talking about the movie the Notebook. I mean,
like her notebook. Yeah, the secret parts of you that you protect and
you keep hidden. Yes, yes, that was a symbolic representation of that.
Absolutely that we always create that and it sometimes gets as fully formed as
we saw in everything everywhere, all at once, that an entire another version
of you exists, which was the point of that movie, but also that
some things just are so powerfully protected as this was some version of me that
could have existed, that people don't let it go. I'm pretty sure we
talked about it in our last episode on Batman, the mask of the phantasm
that some version of Bruce keeps his parents alive in his head and has all
those resources that they gain him. Why he's talking to their portraits are Dare
you bring that up during Pride Month? Agreed? My second that motion,
But that's I mean, that's the point in editing where I'm at where we
were talking about that. So we literally did talk about exactly this, but
it's the same thing yet again, of how powerful that is that when we
we create one part of us that can survive it and one part that would
have been had everything been different. And because that is so firmly encoded with
music and this particular song for her, when this song is played at the
symphony, she's going to have this intense emotional release. It's going to tap
into how it was encoded, why it was encoded, and subtext I got
from the harpsichord was that was either her sister's or her father's. So there's
an extra emotional content to that because it was covered up. You're right,
yeah, yeah, yeah, And a mom wouldn't have covered it up likely
if it was hers. Yeah, So that was a moment of something near
and dear to her that touched her in multiple ways, that represented that period
of her life. So when that song was played with the full orchestra in
the way she dreamed of hearing it, that part of her that had been
locked away got an actualization moment and it got to release. And that's what
the tears are, and it's why we shouldn't hide from those tears and those
big emotional moments. Those are the only way we have to allow the matter
of the emotions inside of us to change form and go back into the universe,
out of our body and back into the universes through tears. If you
think about how the water cycle exists, the way I think about this is
like the emotion is a neurochemical that has mass in our brain and it it
comes into something that allows us to physically release through tears, releasing some part
of something inside of us outward. And when that happens, it's kind of
like some ice getting melted and then steamed up, so it goes back into
the air. Anything else you want to say before we go to break nope,
all right, so we're back. And so the one I don't think
we wanted to touch upon was the topic of suicide. So if this is
a triggering topic for you, you might want to skip ahead a little bit.
So in this movie, it's a little different than where we're about to
go with this because her sister commits suicide. Eloui's sister think of the movie
to evade this marriage. She is exerting, unfortunately, the only control she
feels like she can't have in her life, which is to end it,
which is bleak. And you've heard us talk on the show before about how
when people choose suicide, it's because they don't think there's any other choice to
get out of the pain that they're having. And unfortunately for her sister and
for a lot of people, when they feel trapped in the life that they
have, that they feel like there's no other options that are tolerable, sometimes
they will choose to end their life and that feels like the only power they
still have. Absolutely, And even though there's no discussion in the movie about
her sister also maybe being gay or anything, that's just not something they talk
about the movie. I was nervous that Eloise was gonna go that way too.
Absolutely. I was. I feel like half the movie I was holding
my breath. Well, also what we run on towards the cliff, yeah,
or just by the end of the movie, I was like, well,
they're not together. So I hope this this movie doesn't end with her
lighting herself on fire because that wasn't sure where it was going yet. Yeah,
but we still wanted to make sure to touch upon the topic of suicide
within the LGBTQ community. So I'm gonna throw it to you, Hannah.
So I'm just gonna read some statistics just to kind of give everybody kind of
an update about where we are in terms of the LGBTQ plus community. And
I'm reading the statistics are from the Trevor Project. The Trevor Projects twenty twenty
four US National Survey and Mental Health of LGBTQ plus young People found that thirty
nine percent of all LGBTQ young people seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year,
which is a huge person. Twenty nine percent of all LGBTQ plus young
people seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year. This affects this community disproportionately.
Something else that's important to know is this finding is important in the context
of what we know about firearms. They are the most lethal means used in
suicide attempts. Nearly nine and ten suicide attempts with a firearm result in death.
The presence of a firearm in the home was associated with the seventeen percent
higher odds of attempting suicide in the past year. Being impacted or knowing someone
impacted by mass shooting was associated with the thirty two percent higher odds of attempting
suicide in the past year. Then this is all stuff that we know is
affecting our young people on a regular basis. Young people are at a heightened
risk, with firearms being the leading cause of death for youth between the ages
of thirteen and twenty four and the cause half of all suicide deaths in this
age group as well. So this is not something that is going away.
This is not something that is different, and it's something that is really important
to talk about, especially during Pride Month, to help people better understand that
when we are not allowing people to be who they are as they are,
it creates suicide rates like this. Yeah, and even though in the movie,
it seems like the heterosexual sister is the one that dies by suicide.
The theme is still the same in that a mom is refusing to accept the
reality of the situation, refusing to accept how miserable their child is, refusing
to let their child have more freedom and autonomy around what they need, and
because of that parent's stubbornness and close mindedness, their child chooses to end their
life. And then, unfortunately, not that uncommonly, the mom doesn't learn
from it and repeats the cycle with the other child, you know, and
probably thinks it was the right thing to do because it was quote unquote successful,
and that what we see of Eloise is that she gets married to a
dude and has a kid and like, YadA YadA. But the reason we
wanted to bring this up is it's important. It's important to know these things
and to repeat these things, and that when a person, if you're a
parent otherwise, is trying to stifle your child or someone in your life who
is not straight or cis presenting that you are taking a genuine risk with their
life, you are taking a forty percent chance pretty much that they will choose
to die. And if if that can sit right in your spirit as the
person who's doing that to them or not allowing them to be themselves. I
don't know, you know. I used to work at a place where I
had worked with parents that were in varying degrees of accepting towards different gender identities
and sexualities. And God bless our head psychiatrist because he would tell these parents,
we can't play around with this, Like I can't, I can't see
both sides of this situation because it is from like an even from a dono
harm perspective. Yeah, I cannot recommend like basically conversion e therapy or like
denying their gender presentation or sexuality. He's like, the risk is so high,
Like we know that if we push them that they might try to kill
themselves, and especially if there's comorbidity with other mental health stuff. Absolutely,
we're done, you know what I mean, We're done. And to throw
that into even more concrete languages, you're both doing great. One of the
things that I learned when we got trained in suicide at work by the LA
pd PS psychologists that worked there. We had a huge three or four day
training where they came to Chicago and among all the other trainings you've had,
but there was something about that one that stuck out, that understanding that in
our human psyche there is a suicidal function that exists because it is possible to
be in a situation where pain has become your reality, that there is no
way out of pain available to you anymore. And at that point, and
only at that point, does suicide become an available biological option. Because being
out of pain is a need for humans. And if you are trapping someone
in perpetual pain by denying their existence and their ability to actualize, then they
cannot see a future without pain, and you will enable the suicidal function to
turn on. And it is that serious. Yeah, it is really is.
Are not two ways about how that works. And I will give you
a little exercise that this is something that I give to people in session all
the time to prove this point. If I sat and told you that you
were lost in the woods of Wyoming, you are in the mountains and there
is a pack of wolves coming your way. You have been cornered. You're
standing and there is nothing behind you but a ten thousand foot cliff and a
pack of wolves. Your choices in this moment are get eaten or jump.
You already know your answer, don't you. Absolutely? Yeah, of course
you weren't thinking about that until I propose that specific situation, until I raised
that, But it's spontaneously emerged from you because I met the necessary conditions for
that function of your safety system to turn on. And it's that fucked up.
And I use that one on purpose because it's pretty unlikely that most of
us are ever going to encounter situation. We're going to get eaten by wolves,
hopefully, hopefully, But I could use the same thing of saying being
in the hundred floor of a burning building. So when we strip people of
their ability to get a need met, And remember this is tying back into
a theme I said earlier. If you can't eat because you have money,
you're going to find a way that doesn't involve money to get food. And
if you can't do it in any other way, you will steal like one
of you. So Stuteley mentioned one of the most famous French themed plays of
all time, Miserable Miss. Indeed, it is literally centered around the desperation
a good man stole bread, was his fir, his daughter, or for
himself, sister's family, niece, something like that, something like that,
something like that. Yea, yeah, but he had he did what he
had to do. Yeah, I have news for you about what suicide feels
like to people who are in that place. It feels like the only available
option they have left to get out of pain. And the people that are
going to do it are convinced of that, and there is nothing that diverts
that. So if you want someone to not feel that bad, you better
wake up and recognize helping them have a path to actualization is the only way
to turn that back off. Yeah, and just really confront you know,
the idea of like, what are we fighting for when we are suppressing someone's
identity in that way? And does that feel more important than the possibility that
someone you love will try to end their life or succeed and or just not
want anything to do with you. You know, absolutely. So I also
just wanted to give some information since we are talking about suicide. So the
Trevor Project is specifically for LGBTQ plus and the way you get a hold of
them is they have people who you can talk to. You can text with
them, or you can talk to them on the phone. If you're having
any of these thoughts or feelings of suicide. They're really helpful. So the
phone number is one eight six six four eight eight seven three eight say and
that, or you can text six seven eight dash six seven eight. We
also have the National Suicide Hotline. You can call nine eight eight or you
can text nine eight eight. I know because I work with some people who
have had to utilize the nationals whuice At hotline, and I know sometimes it
can be discouraging. Make sure you just keep calling. I know that they
work really hard and they want to be able to answer every call, and
I also know that there are some times where the falls the call can fall
through. So just know that they are there and they do want to help.
You just might have to call more than once, and that really fucking
sucks and shouldn't be something that happens, but it's something that fucking happens.
Anything else Before we take a break to treatment, No, all right,
so treatment a little different today in that will we decided before we started recording
is that honestly, nobody in this movie needs treatment. If they were able
to live, they're fucking lives the way that they wanted to live. There
fucking lives, they'd all be fine, exact because, as we see in
the movie, once the mom leaves, the the contest leaves, and Eloise
and Marianne and Sophie are allowed to just live freely and relaxed in that home.
Eloise is smiling and laughing. They look like a cute little lesbian family,
you know, like they are happy. And I think that was on
purpose obviously in this movie as a start, contrast to when she shows up
there and everyone looks grim and everything's covered in like cloth or there's no furniture
around, like there's no life in that house. When Marianne shows up,
and then in that week that they're able to be themselves, it feels so
alive and so warm, and they're cooking together, and they're playing together,
and they're drawing together, and they're helping each other with the abortion stuff.
And so yeah, the treatment we're giving in this movie is that people get
to just live their lives and everyone just backs the fuck off. Right,
And where I'll tie that in because I don't disagree in the slightest right,
we all are box stuff agreed on this. Yes, they would be fine,
and they show a dynamic drive towards health, yeah, which is me
using emdr language. But what I'm gonna do is I'm going to dial further
back into Carl Rodgers' language and look at the value of unconditional positive regard for
human beings. When people know that they have that when their needs will be
met, they tend to thrive and pursue a life towards their own wellness.
And how Rogers created this theory was by observing a plant in his basement that
grew towards the light. It was a plant that had been growing in the
dark, and there was light coming from a window, and the plant adapted
itself to grow instead of straight up bent towards the light so that it would
get its needs met and get the sunlight it needed in order to stay alive.
And I can't think of a better story from psychological history to tie to
this effort of if you create an environment where people can thrive, they don't
have to contort themselves to grow towards the light. They'll just grow towards it
where it's supposed to be. Or in the words of my other favorite mister
Rogers, Fred Rogers, I like you as you are. Yeah, And
I think that's also something to take away from this movie too, from like
a how do we treat each other perspective? Treatment wise is I think a
big theme of this movie is the quote is the concept to be loved just
to be scene and how in the movie there's that big moment, there's that
lengthy moment where Eloise is posing for the portrait and Marian's kind of pointing out
all over tells like, you do that when you're sad, you do that
when you're frustrated, you do that when you're angry, and then she does
it to her and how I think it's just it's continues that message we're talking
about, which if you allow people to be themselves, if you take the
time to get to know them and show them that you know them, that
it will people will blossom, you know what I mean. People will like
that flower that Carl Rogers had, They will blossom in the sun. And
how this movie. I think a big theme of this movie, along with
autonomy is the power of feeling seen as for your true self absolutely and how
we see that in like both Marian and Eloise, but also Sophie too.
They see her and she becomes part of their family when they don't have these
social constructs bearing down on them. Yes, so that's our treatment, y'all.
Anything more you wanted to say, Hannah, I don't think so.
I don't think so. I don't think there's anything else like that that I
can add that. Uh, that's better than what you said. Thank you.
We'll take one last break here and be back with final thoughts. So.
I think this is the first time all of us have seen the movie,
right, Actually, the second time I've said it. I realized I
had watched it when I started watching it. Okay, Oh, so I'll
guess I'll go first. Okay, So I really enjoyed this movie. I've
really enjoyed it both times that I've watched it, and I really and I
think a big part of that is not only what the movie is based on
and the naturalness that we see between the women as they take care of each
other, but also the calmness of the film. The lack of intense drama
that you know, we usually get in a film because that's what fucking movies
are about. Was really calming, and it was really comfortable to be able
to watch these women be together in a way that they weren't allowed to.
So I really enjoyed the film. I think it was really well acted and
really beautiful, and I will probably watch it again just to experience that sense
of freedom that they seem to have and where they're when they're all together.
Nice. I guess I'll go next here. I thought the film was mastervelly
shot and acted, even though they were acting with the traditional stoicism that would
have been appropriate for this time period and is frequently demonstrated in costume dramas,
I thought that it was beautifully acted. I spoke French so I could catch
the nuances of the emotion that are going to be conveyed in the language that
I just don't understand, so that the facial acting was outstanding for me watching
subtitles so partially distracting from what's happening and not understanding of the French language because
I don't speak it. But the nuance that was lost in that didn't detract
from the film in a way that was distracting too much. And I think
it's it is a beautiful, calming representation of almost what it's really like to
have those moments where you have whatever short version of a romance that exists in
life, where you know it can't be permanent, that something is not going
to let this last, and something that's very special to you and working right
now and you'll probably have in your heart forever. You're gonna have to ground
in that moment right now. You're gonna have to put away all the things
that make you angry or sad or hurt that you can't have this forever,
and we're gonna have it right now. And people that have had those experiences
in life will have seen it play out just like the relationship between these two
women did on a screen. And I thought that that was a really underserved
part of life, that too many things make everything need to be more dramatic
and more have more drama than they really did. And this I think just
captured straight up moment in time as it was in the same kind of spellbinding
way that those experiences are like. And then they're gone and you carry them
with you forever and you remember them and they do come out. For me,
there are things that have happened in my life that probably because of the
time period, because it's the biggest record of the time period. The Green
Day's American Idiot has a song called What's Her Name? On there That fucking
song gets me every damn time. But the lyrics of it are brilliant and
they're kind of just trapped in that. So I recommend listening to that song
and think about like that was Billy Joe Armstrong likely capturing I remember the face,
but I don't remember the name. I remember the time like he remembers
what happened, and well, that's not going to be true for these two
obviously, But he's writing a story that's existed in many forms of media ever,
that human beings have these experience with these little time limited things that we
all know, but we get so swept up in that they can redefine how
we look at the world. And I thought this is a powerful representation of
that. So this is the first time I've seen this movie, and it's
been on my to watch list for a while, and I've been avoid it
because period LGBTQ movies are usually equals huge bummers, like devastating bars, and
so I've just was never in the mood to be like fucked with emotionally enough
to watch it. And so as soon as I started watching it today,
I was like, oh, oh, hell yeah, like it for the
reasons that you're both saying, it's very calm. The vibes aren't immaculate.
It remind me a lot of The Piano, which is also a movie that's
more heightened than this, but has the same like vibe kind of to it.
And and that's the movie I watched many times when I was younger,
even though you see Harvey Hotel's full penis, but I digress and good old
Piano, and I really liked, Yeah, the delicateness of it, the
kind of I think you were saying, been like slice of life kind of
energy of it. It was very charming and relaxed, and all the painting
stuff gave me asmr tingles, which I loved. I was like, I
con vibe to this movie all day and feels like a movie I will have
on in the background while I'm like reading on like a rainy day or something.
Yeah, so very chill, very relaxing. Improved my mood actually,
because I've been in a bad mood for a few days. And I will
definitely watch it again. I don't know if I'll ever give it like my
full full attention, but it's definitely a good movie to watch here and there
on like a lazy day or to have in the background, like I said,
And I was really happily, like pleasantly surprised that it wasn't a bummer.
So many of these movies that show a marginalized group, whether it's black
people or gay people, I know, a discourse around that can be,
like, why does all the media that portray this community have to be sadness
and sorrow and pain and misery and kind of re trauma tizing as well,
And why can't we have more movies with people of color and gay people that
are like every other movie and include like maybe even joy and peace and stuff
like that. And so even though these two women didn't get the happy ending
because of the time period, it also wasn't the long drawn out, torturous,
soul ripping movie that I was preparing myself mentally for, and so I
really appreciated that. And also one thing I wanted to shout out I almost
forgot is that the woman who plays Elouise, the actress adele Hanel, it's
h ae n Al. So I'm not quite try to pronounce that in French
she's actually mildly blacklisted in French cinema. That I'm aware of because a few
years back, like I think, right after this movie came out, she
was at I think like the French version of the Oscars and they gave Roman
Polanski a really big deal award and we're really like kissing his ass, and
she stood up and started yelling, I think, something along the lines of
like rapist, like child to be like she protested, She's yelled and she
walked out, and I think maybe some another few people did too, so
I don't think it was just her, but she was the most pronounced to
do it, and she stormed out, she made a point, and because
of that she has I think it's it has impacted her career. So I
wanted to shout out to a real one that she stood on her morals and
she did something right at the cut like the probably her breakout, I would
imagine, because this movie was had international fame. That's how we know about
it, right and why we thought about doing it today even though we didn't
really have a relationship with it. And so good for her that she put
her money where her mouth is and she stood up for something she believed in
to the detrimant of her career potentially, and I hope that it doesn't keep
her down for long if it hasn't already gotten better. And yeah, and
if you guys have ever roiced, we are never going to do Roman Polanski
movie on this podcast. We wanted to do Rosemary's Baby early on because it's
a good demonstration of like post traumatic I mean not post traumatic postpartum psychosis.
But he fucking sucks. And the more I learned about Roman Planski, the
more I hate him. Yeah, So on that note, So last thing
I wanted to say without this film was they realized I didn't comment on anything
of LGBTQ nature of it and my final thoughts, and I want to make
sure I did because it's important. Is this movie is a It's just a
beautiful representation of love, period. And I think I want to make sure
that people listening to this can find someplace in their heart to accept that it
doesn't matter if you agree with the way someone else lives their life, if
you can find space in your heart to see that they are only doing the
best that they can from the way the world makes sense to them, and
it can result in a beautiful, peaceful, tranquil experience for them in the
same way that everybody else can look for that in life, where not every
moment in a relationship is like these ones. Life is hard and people are
hard, But letting people have space to love who they love for the reasons
that they love them is really important, and I really hope we can't find
it in our hearts to let people live in a way that's authentic to them,
especially those that have been marginalized for nothing other than loving someone who they
love. On that note, as always, you can find us on Instagram,
Facebook, TikTok a Popcorn in Psychology. You can also find us on
x at Popcorn Underscore psych If you ever want to get in touch with us,
you can email us at popcornpsychologygmail dot com. If any of you guys
know any good LGBTQ movies or TV shows that you think would be good for
us to do on this podcast, we would love those recommendations as well,
especially ones that have a more varied story than what we've been talking about,
like the sort of like tragic story. So if there's any ones that we
seem to just be totally missing, please send it to us, whether it's
DMS or emails or whatever. We'd appreciate it. And as always, if
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read them and we share them. So yeah, happy Pride, everybody,