Tonya Dalton Interview. Ep 44

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode forty four. Today we'll be talking with Tanya Dalton of Inkwell Press about planning and life in general. Always favorite topics for us. This episode is airing in early June. We are recording it at the end of April, which means that we are planning for a lot of year end kids stuff right now, end of the school year's stuff. I know that we have a kindergarten play, a fifth grade promotion ceremony. We have apparently some sort of art gallery. The fifth graders. I'll do this big art project where they then exhibit their art. We're supposed to come for the gallery opening which is of course eleven am on a Friday. So I can deal with this as a self employed person for the most part, although I'm traveling on some of this stuff. But Sarah, like, I'm curious with you, with you and your husband being in the office, as your job being done at a certain place, I mean, how far ahead do you plan to get time off for this stuff and how do you just rises to the level of being worth it. No, it's a great and very timely question, and I feel like the end of the year is definitely sneaking up on us. This time, I had a patient complain that their appointment was so far away and they're like, it's June first. I'm like, that's in one month and five days, Like that's actually not very far away, and they're like, oh, because it seems like June is another lifetime, but it's actually coming up. And I have noted that as my kids have gotten older, the events seem to be increasing exponentially. Obviously, Genevieve, our baby does not have her own events yet, but both my preschooler and kindergartener all of a sudden have all these things that I'm invited to. My strategy is threefold. Okay, so number one, I'm eighty percent time, which I've recognize is not a luxury that a lot of people have. However, one could sort of make themselves eighty percent time at the end of the year by planning in. It depends on how your job is. Mine is if I were to plan in two random days of wiggle room in May, it's not that hard for me to move things around if I had to, So that would have been a way that I could have kind of handled this had I not had the flexibility that I have. So I'd have like two random days that I picked that I could turn into if I find out I need a half day here, half day there, I can move patients you know how I need to move them. And of course I don't have infinitely way to do this, but you know, if it's only during certain parts of the year, and I'm very careful to create availability other times, then it's usually something that's acceptable. The way I've done at this time is exactly that. So I've sort of been using my days off and moving things around if the event seems like it's important enough. I don't know how to draw that line. I do wonder you know once I have three in school that the bar may become higher. Now, my husband, even though his job is very inflexible, he does happen to work right near where we live and where the schools are, so on that side of things, you know, that actually serves as a plus. So even though his schedule is not flexible, he's much more likely to be able to like randomly duck in and out for just a lunch hour. So there's that. And then my third sort of trick is that, you know, again we're lucky enough in this regard, but we have family that live nearby. So for example, I decided that kindergarten graduation was worthy and that the end of your picnic is worthy. Although I kind of debated, but I thought I could make it work, so I did. But then there was like another end of the year breakfast also for the kindergarten. I'm like, okay, drawing the line there, but I reached out to Josh's mom, Bibe, to see if she could go, and she's going to try to go to that one. So yeah, that's how we've handled things. It is not eay, but I think one strategy is to build in a couple of days off that you can shift around during that time of year and then use other family members as well. There's no reason dad can't come to some of these things. Definitely a dad can go to some of these things, or grandma or you know, other special adults in their family. I love we have this. The kindergarten teacher we've had for the three kids now has a grand person's event in December, I guess, and so any any grand person in your life is invited to it, and we've actually been it's been great, but my parents have been able to come some for two of the kids. But you know, you could send a neighbor, you can send a family friend, you can say you know any special person in the kid's life. So I thought that was pretty cool too. Yeah, we've been having calendar meetings about end of the year stuff, just making sure that my husband has all the things on his calendar too, and I try to get them ahead of time because I had, you know, a situation last year where I had agreed to do a webinar and it turned out to be right at the moment that my daughter's kindergarten graduation was then scheduled for it. But it hadn't. I hadn't gotten that date, and you know, and so I'd booked this webinar like a couple months ahead of time, and then I tried to move it, but of course then they weren't really that interested in moving it, and I was like, well, you know, daddy can go. I will be not there. But you know, it's just too bad. It's like one of those you know, own goal situations that's so frustrating. I wish. I mean, really, the schools should do a little bit of a better job if they can, on at least the big stuff, laying it out at the beginning of the year. And I understand things have to get moved, but it really is harder for working parents. And it's definitely makes it harder when things are last minute, at least in my profession. And I'm guessing that's true. I mean, it may not have been totally last night. I mean it was still you know, a couple a month or two ahead, but it was just, you know, it's hard. I'm not sure exactly what the ahead of time thing is. We've had the end of the school year moving around for us too, because we had so many and so it was they had put extra days in June and then, but at the same time we're petitioning the state to not have to do them, and we just got the waiver. So now the end of the school year's moved back again. But it's God. That's also very stressful from a working parent perspective, because do I need camp? Do I not need camp? Do I need childcare? It's hard for me to accept that not everything can be planned a million years in advance, but I guess it's no. But I love your tip about building in a couple of days of paid time off toward the end of the year if that is remotely possible for you, because then you can use that for these things that inevitably come up. So we're going to be excited to talk to with Tonya about the idea of planning and how she does this as well. So we'll move over to that interview now. Well, Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Tanya Dalton to the podcast. Tanya, thanks for joining us, Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here great. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners absolutely so, As you mentioned, my name is Tanya Dalton. I'm the founder and CEO of Inkwell Press, and we create productivity tools and training to help people live their best life. I also am the host of Productivity Paradox podcast, and I have online courses and do all the different things that have to do with productivity. So keithy plenty, busy, lots of fun. But I'm really happy to be here and talk about productivity and all those things with you guys. Yeah, and you were so excited. Yeah, And I was just gonna interject as a planning nerd that I'm super excited to have Tanya on and anybody who has not seen her line of products, there are some of the prettiest planning products that I've seen. And again, I'm a big planner nerd, so this comes from like someone who's looked at a lot of stuff. So you really it has a nice aesthetic sensibility that I think is very different from a lot of the stuff out there. Thank you so much. Well, I think really for me, I really wanted to create productivity tools that felt very useful, very functional. But I thought, why does it have to be functional and boring? Right? Or lovely? That's the other part of it. And I really wanted planning to be this thing that we look forward to doing, that it becomes part of this ritual that we do that we open up the book and it feels like a pleasant experience for the people using it. So I tried to marry that form and function together. So thank you so much. I love that you like it so much. Yeah, and so this business is relatively new though you're a longtime entrepreneur. But Inkwell is your more recent iteration of this. Yes, we launched in November of twenty fourteen. So, as you mentioned, I had a business before, but I closed up that shop in order to really pursue what I was passionate about. I was doing something else altogether, and I did not feel fulfilled by it. I just felt like it wasn't what I wanted to do and what I was meant to do. I loved that it had allowed me to grow a business where my husband could come and he could work alongside me, and we were able to move where we wanted to live, but it really didn't fulfill me with what I was putting forth into the world. So it was kind of a scary time. But I did close up shop, which meant that, you know, we had to tighten up our belts and all those other things. But I really felt it was important to follow what I was passionate about and to spend my time focused on what was most important. And I wanted to spread that message of productivity is not about doing more, it's about doing what's most important and really living your best life. So yeah, so we did that in November of twenty fourteen. Well, can you talk a little I want I want to probe a little bit about this because you know, it was not a you know, tiny business like you guys had, actually you know, yeh grown and so to what how does one then make the decision of feeling like I'm not spending my hours the way I necessarily want to be doing it and I need to do something totally different. I mean, and especially because you had kids as well. I still do. They're still around, I still do, but they were there when this decision was made. So talk a little bit more about that thought process. Yeah. Well, the first business that I started was really one of those things where I thought, you know what, I'm going to start this side business. This will be something that I do. My husband was traveling the world doing international marketing, and I thought this will be a lot of fun. I started with fifty bucks and what was it? Sorry, can you tell us? Sure? Yes, I did. I made jewelry and it was a wholesale business, so I sold directly to other businesses. And oh wow, what I did was I started off and I was just doing it on the side. So it was just one of these things that was, you know, when my husband would travel, I would open up shop a little bit. It was it was like a little hobby. Well, I guess about a year after I started it, I was only selling really to friends and family and those kinds of people. I had a conversation with my husband that really changed my life. He was on the other side of the planet and I was there with our two kids in Dallas, Texas, and he I was telling him all the things that were going on with the kids and how Kate was, you know, hitting all these different milestones. She was pretty young at the time. And he said, I'm missing everything. I'm missing all these things with the kids, and I am not happy. And I was so surprised by that. But because I knew that he loved marketing, and I knew he loved what he did, but being away was so hard for him. So I made the decision at that moment, standing in my kitchen at dusk, that I was going to change the direction of my business and grow this little side business into something that was big enough to take his corporate you know, salary, and take that on and allow him to quit working in corporate America. So I sat down that night and I started creating operations, and I started creating these productivity plans and systems of how things were going to work so I could make that goal a reality. And within a year of making that decision, I was able to accomplish that goal. So that was I love that whole narrative just because it's sort of backwards from you know, the traditional woman feels like she's missing everything and decides to stay home, and said it was man felt like he was missing everything, and so woman grows a business that can incorporate the man. That is amazing. I love that. Yes, that's I mean, that's what happened. And so this is the thing is when you know, I hit It was probably in the fall of twenty thirteen that I really started to realize how unsatisfied and unfulfilled I was by my business. What I think was really hard for me was that I do love working with my husband. That was very That part of it was the one part that I was like, Okay, I love this part, and I love that it did allow us to move from Dallas Sexist to Asheville, North Carolina, where we live now. But it was what paid our bills. It did feed my children, who insist upon being fed three times today. And so I went to and I said, I'm unhappy. I don't know what to do. I don't feel like I am passionate about what we do. I could keep doing this because it's making us money, but I'm just not happy. And I am blessed because I do have a very supportive husband who says, you know, you tell me what you want to do. You take the time to figure out what you want to do, and I will support you no matter where you want to go. And so I sat down and I had to figure out what that was going to look like, because at the time, I honestly didn't know what that was. I didn't know what the business was that I was going to open. I had no idea. What if there was no passion for me, what if it was just this, you know, this life that I didn't know what I was going to do. So sitting down and really working out and figuring out what are the things I'm passionate about, That's what helped me figure out that I wanted to open Equal Press because I started zeroing in on these different areas of my life that were really key in my happiness. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about that, because I bet we have a lot of listeners who are like, well, I'm unfulfilled on my job too. Imagine that, what a coincidence, And I'm thinking of trying to do something different and possibly starting my own business or figuring out a different career path. So when you were sitting down having those conversations with yourself and that sort of soul searching, what practically did you do to come across, you know, come up with to move from soul searching to like, you know, salesbole product moving forward. Yes, well, you know, I think one of the most important things you can do is give yourself the time. Oftentimes we tell ourselves I don't have the time. You're familiar with that. I've heard that a few I'm I'm sure you have. You know, people feel like they don't have the time to give themselves this space to be able to really dig deep and think about it. And so I really had to intentionally carve out time that I said, I know this is going to be difficult. I know this is going to be tough. I know there are other things. There's a laundry that needs to be done, and there's a thousand other things to do. But I really need to give myself some space. So I sat down and I started doing some mind mapping. I started doing these different types of brain dumps where I was thinking about the different aspects of my day. So I started off thinking about what is it about my job that I do love? What are the things that I love? And I would just do a big brain dump, you know, based off of those things I was coming up with, and then I would sit down and I would say, Okay, here's one thing. What is it about this one thing that I love? And then I would go down that rabbit hole and then I would allow these rabbit holes just to take me where they wanted to. And I think that's the beauty of giving yourself that time, is that it allowed me to explore and because to me often it's not the first why. It's the fifth right, It's when you dig, and you dig and you ask yourself, why do I like this? Why is that I feel that way? Why? Why? And you start digging into this. And what I started to notice was, so I had all these papers everywhere. Probably looked like a crazy person's house because I had all these papers where I had been brainstorming and mind mapping, and then I've sort of laying them out and looking around and seeing are their themes? Are there certain themes that are appearing again and again and again? And there were there were certain words that would appear, or certain themes with words. You know. One of the things that I honed in on was that I used to be a teacher, and I love educating other people. So there were different things I was doing at that time. I was doing coaching, and I was volunteering in the classrooms to help with helping the teachers. So I kept seeing this theme of education. So I knew that that was part of what I needed to pursue, and that was part of what would become whatever it was I wanted to create. The other things I started to notice was I really loved I was doing a lot of small business consulting, and I was coaching these other women business owners and I loved empowering them and talking to them about how I was able to grow my business and getting them to grow their businesses. And then I loved productivity because that's what allowed me to grow my business the way I did. So I had to look at these things that I started seeing again and again and I had to say, Okay, here, I have, you know, education and teaching, I have empowering others, and I have productivity. How are these related? Right? I have these three things, How am I going to connect them? So I had to create this thread that connected these things. So for me, when I decided I wanted to do something that was about productivity, I knew I wanted to create products and tools, but I needed to have education be a big part of it. So from the very start, whenever we sold planners, they always came with a series of setup videos that walk you through how do you prioritize, how do you set your goals? How do you do these things? Because I wanted that education part to be a part of that, and I wanted these people who were buying the planners to feel empowered with their planning so it became this thing where I needed to connect those and sometimes it's not really obvious right away. You have to create those threads to connect them and bring them all together. Was it easier to launch the side second business? I mean having had the first experience, I know, you had a pretty big launch for inquell Press, then on day one we did. Yeah. I would say so to me. The benefit of having something that you've walked away from, whether that's a success or a failure, is that the lessons that you've learned throughout that journey carry forward with you, so you don't go into this next iteration, you know, with no suitcases. I had all this baggage, I had all this knowledge that I had accumulated through growing the other business. So I could look at that that first business and go, oh, it was a failure because I wasn't happy. Or I could look at that and say, oh, my gosh, I'm in such a better place than I was when I launched that business because I knew so much more. So I think that really did help. I think to the other part that really helped me was I wasn't afraid to ask questions. I find that a lot of times when we're you know, we're feeling like we want to try something new. We're scared to ask questions, We're scared to say that we don't know what we're doing. So I really approached it though like a new business owner. What are the things I don't know going forward into this business that I wish I had known to my old business, And that kind of allowed me to create this well rounded launch so that when we did launch, it was successful. You know, about a week before we had our launch, I decided we started kind of our launch campaign in the summer, and we had no people on our email list because I didn't want to carry people over for my old business. I didn't think that was right to pull them into this new business. So I started with nobody on my email list, and about a week before our launch, I looked at my husband and I said, this is either going to be a really great week or we're going to be living in our car under a bridge. I don't know what. Right, But then launch day came and we had five hundred orders, And I really attribute a lot of that to the fact that I was so passionate and so excited about this new business and the direction that I felt it was going to take me that I was able to pour myself one hundred and ten percent into it. And I think that makes a huge difference whenever you're doing something, if you truly believe in it, if you believe that what you're doing is part of who you really are at your core, it makes such a difference in how you feel about how you feel about it. Even being work, it doesn't feel like work. It feels like something you're excited to wake up and do every day. That is fantastic. I had a question about the logistics of you said you loved working with your husband, so that is definitely a bit of an unusual situation. So still get that opportunity. I think it'd be kind of fun, but can't figure out how to make that happen. I'm just kidding, But yeah, how did that evolve? And then how has that evolved in terms of childcare? You know, our reader our listeners, not readers, love to hear the nuts and bolts of you know, what makes the day to day work in two income households and with you guys working together a lot of the time, you have a bit of a unique perspective on this. Yeah, that's a great question. So, as I mentioned earlier, when I started the business, originally I ended up bringing him on. And what I really love about my husband is that he says to me, you know, you're the one who started these businesses. You are the CEO. So we don't deal with a lot of that power play that maybe other people have dealt with because he says, you know, you're you're the charge. And then he's my CMO, so he is my chief marketing officer, and he does finances and he does a few other things. So we just really work well together, I think because we have a mutual respect, not only in business but also in our personal life. I think respect is one of those things that's so important in a marriage anyways, but it's also very important with a business partner. But we do definitely have to, you know, create a strong division at times, because sometimes I have to say to him, I need you to talk to me right now as my husband, not you know, not business John. I need you to be husband John right now. So it's taken a little bit of time to really figure that out and get that flow, but it works really well for us, and I love that we get in the car we drive our kids to school together. We're you know, in the carpool together. We go to the office, we literally sit across the desk from each other, our desks butt up against each other. We see each other all day long, and then we go home together. So our kids are now older. Jack is now fifteen and Kate is eleven, So things are a little bit simpler childcare wise at this point because Kate can come home from school and get off of the bus and she's able to go home and be at home for thirty minutes, while I'm willing to get Jack from the high school. But you know, when we were starting out, there was a lot of working from the house, and we would you know, on mother's day out days or on preschool days. Those were our days where we were working a lot harder and a lot more focus than on the other days. So we would take turns a lot of times with who was in charge of childcare, who was picking up, and those types of things. But that has just naturally progressed as we've moved forward. I think one of the things that's really important when you're doing a business like this is our business truly is a family business. My kids come in they were on spring break a couple of weeks ago. They come in at least one day for every week they're off of school, and they come and they work and they make boxes, or they will help make goalfoil cards, or they will you know, stuff stuff envelopes. But they're a very active part of our business. And I started that when they were really tiny. So when Kate was just, you know, barely walking, I would give her a stamp path and I would say, oh, you know what, I need all of these pages stamped. Even if it wasn't really something I needed. It was just a way for her to always feel like she was involved in the business, because I wanted them to feel like they were a part of it and to not ever resent the time that I spent on what I was doing. So we've always all along kept them involved in what we're doing. So one of the things that I do now is I leave the office every day at three o'clock and I go home and I take my CEO hat off and I put my CEO at home hat on, right, Because I'm the CEO at the office and I'm the CEO at home. It's two very different roles, but it allows me to shut that door to work and really focus and give my full, intentional time to my kids and to my family. So that's one of the things that really has been very helpful for us, is you know, having that ability to transition and I'm home in the afternoon, I'm able to help them with their schoolwork. We're able to do after school activities. Uh, and that's that's worked out really well. That sounds awesome. Can I ask you a planner NERD question? I love planner NERD question. What are you currently using for my planner? Yeah? Well, we have a daily Planner that I really love because it's a new product for this year, and it's one of those things where whatever I roll out a new product, I always test it for a good six months before I even you know, put it into production. So I use my Daily Planner and what I love about it is that I don't believe to do lists work, so I it does not have a to do list. It has a priority list on it, and so that has really helped me feel so much more empowered over where I want to focus my time and spend spend my day. So I've been using that. Wait, what's the difference all right, what makes it a priority list versus to do list? Well, to me, a to do list is a long list that's just jumbled up. There's no real order to it. You just add items as you think about it. Right, It almost works as a brain dump. And to me, a to do list is way too long, so it's never achievable, which is why we often go to bed and our head hits the pillow and we feel so unsatisfied and unsuccessful, even though we were busy all day long, because we have this massive to do list. And I often tell people that, you know, we feel so overwhelmed because we don't know where to start. Overwhelm isn't having too much to do. It's not knowing where to start. And so instead of making it to do list that doesn't tell me where to start, I create a priority list. So the priority list has three different levels to it. It takes the same amount of time as doing it to do list, but what it does is it tells me where to start. I start at the top and I work my way down. So my first category is immediate items, and these are items I need to tackle right away because they are important and they're urgent. And then the second section are tasks that are important. So these are items that are important but not urgent, so they don't have like a looming deadline or they're not you know, screaming fires that need to be put out. But that is my biggest section of my priority list because that's where I want to spend the majority of my time, because I want to make sure my important items don't over turn into my urgent items, because I want to spend my time being proactive rather than being reactive. So I have the immediate, then I have important, and then my bottom section is insignificant. And that's for the items that are unimportant. And when I say unimportant, I mean they don't move me towards my goals. They're not connected to my mission or my vision or my pore values, so they're unimportant, but they're urgent. And a lot of times this is a lot of the emails or you received during the day, the things that we're doing that are other people's priorities. And I put those at the bottom because even though they're urgent, and even though they feel like a fire that needs to be put out, a lot of people start with those things because they just want to get them crossed off their lists, but because they're not truly important, I don't want to spend the majority of my time on that that's the last part of my day. So by creating a priority list, I start at the top and I get my all of my important things done first, and that's what allows me to feel so much more successful. And then because it's a limited amount of space, it allows me to make my day achievable. Because I think that's one of the things that especially because women we do we like to just keep adding things on our list and adding more things and adding more things, and our list gets to be three miles long. It's almost a little badge of honor to have a ridiculously long to do list. But what I really like is that it allows me to really focus in and hone my time on what I really want to do and makes my day achievable. So you talked about, you know, having some of the stuff that's lowered down the priority list. I'm curious as a business owner if the skill of delegation has been one you've had to learn over time, And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how any advice you'd give to people on learning to do absolutely. I think that delegation is one of those things that's really hard to hand over because we have a certain way we want things to be done. So that's a little bit of that perfectionism that you know, a lot of us fall prey to. We want other people to do, you know, these tasks, but we don't necessarily give them the ability to do it. And a lot of times when I'm talking to people about delegation, it's that idea of you know, a woman and a man comes home from the hospital and they have a baby, and the husband goes and he and he goes to change the diaper, and the wife comes in and she goes, oh, no, no no, no, no, that's not how you do it. You're doing it all wrong. Here, give me the baby, and she takes the baby and she dipers it again. And then the next day the husband tries to die for the baby, and she goes, no, no, no, you're doing it all wrong, and she takes the baby back again. And this continues, and then what ends up happening is the husband eventually says, you know what, I never die for the baby, right, I'm just gonna stop diapering it all together, right, and then what ends up happening is she says, well, can you believe he hasn't changed a diaper in six months? But it's because we've taken these tasks back instead of just allowing these people to, you know, whether it's your husband, or your kids, or your coworkers, to take a little bit of accountability for what they're doing. We have a certain way that we really feel like it has to be done a hard time of letting go of those ideas and those visions that we have in our own head of what these things need to look like. So what I try to encourage people to do is look at delegation as development. It's a chance for you to really give to someone else and to allow them to develop these skills or these you know, these areas in their life that maybe would make them a little more well rounded. And it's hard, you know, like with especially if it's your kids, because they either do it too slow, or they do it wrong, or or any of those things that it's so much faster for us to do it ourselves. But if we look at delegation as development and we look at it as an investment, it really can change the way that you feel about it that it feels a little easier to let go of, you know, for me with my kids. You know, I'll give the example of laundry. When my kids were little, I have an automation that I do at home where Tuesday was laundry day. So I would call up the stairs every Tuesday, say it's Tuesday, it's laundry day. The kids started to learn that Tuesday was laundry day and their job was to bring their laundry baskets down. Laundry baskets don't come down, Laundry doesn't get done right. Well, as they got older, then I would have them sit next to me and they would sort the laundry. I could have totally sorted the laundry so much faster, right, but I had them do it, and I would stand over them and help them do it, and then I would go put the laundry into the washing machine. Well, then it became all right, it's Tuesday, it's laundry day. They bring their baskets down. They sorted their own laundry without me standing over them. And then you know what the next step was. Now you put your laundry into the watching machine yourself, right and now here my kids are eleven and fifteen. Guess who does their laundry. Not me. I don't do their laundry, They do their own. So yes, all along as they were growing up, I could have done the laundry so much faster than they did, but I started delegating that to them, and I started investing and making these little tiny deposits into who they are, and now my kids can totally do the laundry. And as a matter of fact, about two months ago, we went ahead and aside my daughter to be in charge of washing all the towels. So now I don't even watch towels. That's now one of the things that she does as part of her chour list. So I think if you start looking at it that way, as you know, these investments into other people, I think it makes it so much easier to open up that possibility to give some of these tasks away. Excellent. Well, I have definitely, you know, even in the short time since the five years since I've been an attending physician, have learned my lesson about how to delegate. And it is so true that taking that time to really train those who work with you is pays back dividends and that's interesting because you can think about how that relates to the planning process because those are items that maybe aren't important that you are the one doing that, right, it's exactly right to me. It's the insignificant item. Those are the things you should definitely be either a saying no to altogether or delegating out to someone else. And delegating doesn't mean it has to cost money. A lot of people think, oh, does that mean I have to hire somebody, you know, do I have to hire somebody to clean the house. No, it just means bring in the rest of your family to help out and start pitching in as well. There's no rule that says that you have to do everything, and I think that's hard. But you're right when you're you know, as you said, like when you when you give these tasks other people, it really does pay back in dividends. I have a question about this though, because I mean, obviously you're you know, delegating at work to family members and delegating that at home is as well. Has there ever been tension with this that, you know, maybe you and your husband have a disagreement on the business side or a tense day from that and then it carries over at home or anything. Oh, we are humans, so yes, it has happened. Has happened where you know, we have opposing viewpoints. That's me putting it nicely that I'm right he hasn't figured that out yet. But you know, sometimes we'll have this, you know, opposing viewpoint and we're having an intense conversation about it at work, and then it wants to carry over at home. And there are times where we have to say to each other, you know what, we're at home. This is very We're different, we're different roles for each other. We have to walk away from that easier said than done. But generally, for the most part, I think we have a very open communication with each other, so it does help, and we generally just try to talk it through and figure it out. But yeah, just like any other married couple. Yeah, we work together. We love working together. We still fight. I mean there's times where the trash doesn't get taken out right or things like that, or someone has forgotten to do something at work. And I think that's one of the things though, that we have to make sure that we're offering grace to one another and we're remembering that we have these different roles with one another as well. Awesome. Well, I think this has been fantastic. I encourage our listeners to at least take a look at her stuff because I'm telling you it's just very different and very pretty. And I also want to mention she mentioned her podcast, The Productivity Paradox, and she talks about a lot of different planning topics. Productivity topics kind of a little bit on the theme of what she's talked about today in terms of perfectionism as being her theme for this season. But if you like ours, then that would be one you might want to check out out. So I appreciate you spreading the word. It really is one of those things with you know, as I mentioned, education is so important to me, and so the podcast is just an extension of that. So it's a it's a great vehicle for getting to talk about one of my favorite topics, productivity exactly. So, Tanya, we have a part of the podcast every week where we say our love of the week. I think Sarah has one that's that's planner related. Yeah, don't worry, no competitive, No, I'm going to competitor's product I'm going to mention I don't think you have any line of writing instruments at least as of now. But I will tell you that I am trying them all. But I'm currently into paper meat flare pens, which are kind of like basic. You know, I have to you use all the fancy Japanese stuff to go back to. That seems a little odd, but you know what, they're really good felt to pens. They come in really good colors, and I'm really into them right now. Yeah, I'm holding a paper mate ink Joy Gel zero point seven at the moment, which I have found through trial and error is my favorite. Yes, Okay, I'm very particular about pins. Like the pens are one of the things at home that the kids know like off limits. Those are moms pens not to the use. Okay, you got to tell how you fight disappear. You know what I do. I have a bag that I carry them in and they go with me back and forth to the office. They have to literally pick they have to go in my bag and steal them and then you know, but I love the pens. Those are one of my favorite. Oh I've heard I've never tried those. Interesting, I'm writing that down. Hell, so I do have a lot of colors. Yeah, they come in a lot. I like, there's a certain smoothness I'm looking for. And again kind of a pen snob with that. Yeah, well that was what I liked. My enjoy or whatever is. It's very smooth writing. But I don't need all the colors, so that's probably why I'm still on the low end pen market. I have smearing I have. I'm a left hander, so jee I can't, can't you? Yeah, but they're very pretty for other people. All right, Well, Tanya, thank you so much for being having me. I really enjoyed it. Well that was great. So now coming to our Q and a portion of the episode, we got a great question. We get all sorts of great questions from listeners. Please keep sending them in. You can always email me el vanderkammat yahoo dot com, or if you want to post questions on our blog on the Instagram for this podcast. All of that is great. We'd love to see them. This question comes from a woman who says she has twelve years into her career as an electrical computer engineer, programming in a manufacturing environment, which is fast paced and challenging. She says she's good at what she does, and partly because of this, for the past few years, people have been strongly hinting that she should move into management. She has tried some of the She's done temporary management stents of certain projects. As her exploration, she says, in my company and position, it is really the only way to move up, to get more salary, move up the ladder, is to be in management. She says. The problem of code, of course, is that she really loves what she does on the technical side, right She loves coding, investigations, working with individuals and operations, and she knows that moving into a management would replace that technical side with things that she doesn't enjoy, namely meetings, overseeing financial aspects, managing people. So you know, things are shifting around. She's wondering again if she should do this. Everyone is always telling her, like, yes, move up. That's how you move up in life. That's how you get more salary. In her particular case, her husband's salary she thinks won't necessarily go up all that much, so it should be a you know, it's important for her family to have more money. To The technical track at her job moves up very slowly, so she's asking us what do you think we should do? Like, should she stay on the technical side, which she knows she loves. Should she move into management, which is how you move up at her company and make more money? What do we think? So you know, obviously, Laura vandercam dot com, the tracks are what they are. But Sarah, with medical work, you guys come with this all the time because you can move into management, but then you don't see as many patients, or you stop seeing patients. So how do you make this decision? Yeah, although as you said that, I will say that Laura vandercam dot com. Yes, it is what it is. Although I've seen some websites morph into more where someone who used to be a primary blogger and speaker than morphs into more of a supervisory role. So actually, you never know. There are versions of this, I think everywhere. Although yeah, it probably wouldn't be called Laura Vanner you weren't the primary person doing it. But no, I think this is such a good question and I can relate to this. I also, before I even talk about how this, I've thought through this. It reminds me a little bit of one of our earliest Actually it was our first guest podcast and if you haven't listened to Shavon Brady talk about her, you know, role as a scientist and running a lab, you should go back because it was I think an excellent episode. Anyway, So you know, she started out in science doing genetics, pipetting things, growing plants because she does plants genetics. And you know, we were talking to her and I think, Laura, you asked her something about like, oh, you're doing something. She's like, well, you know, I don't really like do that stuff anymore. I don't do any of the hands on science. I more run the lab. I manage the lab. I sort of I have the CEO kind of a role. I decide which projects are worth working on and what aren't, and I mentor others and I'm a leader. And you know, I've talked to Shaban like do you miss the old part? And I don't get a sense that she does. I do think they're in certain technical fields. There becomes a point where maybe you get burned down on the technical side and it feels natural to kind of move on to more the oversight. But I've actually spoken with scientists who I have a friend who has actually stayed on as she's a pH d. But she's more of a she still does the hands on stuff, and I don't know, I don't know what to call her role. Her first name is E. I think she listens to this podcast high E. But she has chosen she wants to stay hands on. So I do think there is value to either side. And the unfortunate part is you're right, it is harder to move up in terms of salary and in terms of leadership on the purely technical side. From my angle, I have not been asked to be program director of our residency program, but at one point during sort of a mentoring session, I was asked like, do I have ambitions to do that? And I answered, honestly, who knows whether that was the right choice or not. But I said, well, right now, no, I don't want to do that because I am not in a place where I want to let go of the technical stuff that I do all day, which is mostly seeing patients and doing endochronology. And I know that if I were running our residency program and then this would really really change my job and I'd be less of a doctor and more of a teacher, and I don't want to do that, So I totally get what this person is saying. Here's my thought. If you still like development leadership skills and you want to move up, but you still want to do your stuff, see if there's any place of a hybrid, which is kind of what I'm doing now, Like, so maybe there's an ability to be an assistant leader or run some big project without letting go of most of the technical things. And the other thing I would think about is maybe it's worth experimenting. So one option would be, if something opens up, see if you could maybe get a role as an interim chief or interim leader, so that if it doesn't work, it's not a matter of failing. It's just like, oh, I was covering for somebody, and that way you were able to see how it works and see if you miss the technical side as much as you thought you would. And if you do miss it, it'd be easily to slide back in. And if you don't, then it would be easy to say, oh, that was so successful, I can slide into that acting chief as actual chief. So those are my two thoughts. I do find that you know older people in medicin, and I do see a lot of burnout not in everyone, so there may be you know, I certainly have not gotten to that point at all. I still really like that side, and you really like the side you're on, but you never know where you'll be in a decade. So I guess the other thing is like, just remember you don't have to decide everything now. There could still be opportunity to move up later. Yeah, and I think this is a broader point. We have people listening to this who are in management and such. It's really cool sometimes to have better ladders on the technical side of things. I know some schools have been experimenting with. There's obviously if a great teacher wants to move into a principal role, that would be awesome, But some teachers want to stay in the classroom. Are there ways for them to get more seniority, get more pay, get more responsibility, broaden their scope while still being teachers, Like are there master teacher roles that they can take on? Same thing with a technical, you know job like this, maybe there's like a master technician sort of designation that this plant that she works in should come up with, right, and that somebody you know in her position, could you know, rise quicker, like get more pay, get more seniority and still be technical, like they can teach new people, they can go to different plants and do stuff like they can you know, trot her out for conferences to give presentations on the stuff they're doing. She can be the person who always presents to management about you know, the technical worlds, and she could in fact propose some of that stuff, right, Like she can propose more of a master technician kind of designation that that would be a ladder hierarchy they could do. So, you know, I don't think this needs to be either or necessarily like you're either technical or management, and once you're in management, you're always out of technical. As as Sarah saying, there might be a hybrid, or there might be ways to encourage your company to think more broadly and holistically about how they can keep people who are on the technical side and really want to double down on that too. All right, well, this has been Best of Both Worlds episode forty four. We will be back next week with more and making work in life together. And just a quick note, if you are enjoying this podcast, which we really hope you are, please consider sharing it with a friend. A lot of our listeners are coming to us through recommendations. We're hearing that from people and we really appreciate your sharing the word. You can rate us on iTunes you can leave a review. Those are very helpful too. When people are searching for new podcasts. It so helps to see other people who are like this potential listener saying that they really enjoy it, so please consider doing that as well. Come visit our websites. Sarah and I both blog Sarah's over at the Shoebox s h U box to our initials. I'm at Laura vandercam dot com and we would love to hear from you, so thanks so much for listening in thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.