Zap Energy targets fusion power without magnets, Claudia de Rham on the beauty of gravity

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Hello and welcome to the Physics world Weekly

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podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.

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This week, I'm in

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conversation with the head of Physics.

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At zap

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energy, which is developing a small scale

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fusion technology

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that doesn't rely on magnets,

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cryo

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or high powered lasers.

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This episode also features an interview with theoretical

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physicist and author

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Claudia Dora,

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who talks about her new popular science book,

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the beauty of falling,

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And about her career in research.

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We'd like to thank f vacuum for supporting

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this podcast.

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F vacuum is part of the bush group.

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1 of the world's largest

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manufacturer rivers of vacuum pumps, vacuum systems,

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blower,

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compressors, and gas abatement systems.

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Under its umbrella, The group houses 3 well

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known brands.

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Bush vacuum solutions,

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f vacuum

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and cent,

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clean solutions.

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Using fusion technology to generate

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energy could be a major breakthrough for clean

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and sustainable production.

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For fusion experiments, having a vacuum is essential,

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whether for laser induced fusion or plasma technologies.

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Due to the demanding conditions inside these reactors,

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it's creating and maintaining a vacuum

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as well as measuring the total pressure and

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analyzing gases,

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needs to be tailored to meet these challenges.

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F vacuum has taken on these challenges and

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through dedicated

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research and development

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has worked with customers to create unique solutions

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that make vacuum technology

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suitable

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for fusion technology.

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Find out more at f

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dash vacuum

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dot com

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Nuclear fusion could be used to generate energy

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with no direct emissions of greenhouse gases.

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However, building a practical

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fusion reactor remains a formidable

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engineering challenge.

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Today,

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international

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collaborations and small companies alike, are pursuing different

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routes to fusion.

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Z energy is a Us based company that

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aims to develop a system that uses the

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zed pinch effect to con confined and compress

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a plasma to the point that fusion occurs.

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To talk about Zap energy, I'm joined down

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the line from Seattle

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by Derek Sutherland,

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who is head of physics

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for the company's

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fu q prototype

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fusion reactor. Hi, Derek. Welcome to the podcast.

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Thanks for having me. Very happy to be

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here. So, Tar, Zap energy aims to produce

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fusion energy using no magnets,

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and I'm guessing that zed pinch effect. Is

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involved there. Can you can you describe how

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that would work?

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Sure. So the Z bench is a form

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of magnetic confinement infusion, which might be counterintuitive

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since we say we use no magnets.

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And in fact, what we do instead is

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that instead of putting current electric current in

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the coils around the plasma,

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we put the current in the pla itself.

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To And so when you think about the

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direction of the current, we flow it in

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the z direction in a cylindrical corded system.

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And that produces a magnetic field in the

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plasma that's con combining and it pinch it.

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And so that's where you get the the

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term z pinch.

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It's current flowing in the plasma that produces

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the magnetic fields for confinement.

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I see. And so so is that, like,

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I mean, I suppose there's lots of sort

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of self focusing effects that occur in physics.

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Is this an example of a sort of

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a self. Focusing a fact where the plasma

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interacts with itself and its magnetic field and

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and sort of benches and and gives you

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a high density.

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Yeah. Exactly right. It's a it's a form

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of self organization and self focusing. And then

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1 of the original papers for z pensions

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refer to them as self focusing streams. A

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plasma.

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Okay. And what what are the benefits of

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this design over other schemes? I mean, I'm

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guessing 1 of the the big benefits is

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that you you don't have magnets,

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which can be very difficult to operate, particularly

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at very high magnetic fields.

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Yeah. So there there are a few benefits

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of of the z pension. Mainly, it's driven

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by just the simplicity

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of designing 1 of these systems to... Rate

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in the real world. And so without having

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those magnets, which are typically super

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such as in Tok x stellar or more

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the main line approaches.

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Since you're using the plasma itself to produce

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the magnetic fields, You don't have to protect

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the plasma from high energy neutrons since it's

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the thing that's making them.

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And so with no magnets, you don't have

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to have as much shielding and it makes

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your system more compact.

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But also, we don't have any cryo to

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call those. Magnets either to a super conducting

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state, and we're also not using any high

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powerful lasers like an inertial confinement,

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so it's a really compact simple approach to

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fusion that has a lot of benefits long

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term.

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I see. And you you mentioned earlier sort

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of the original side scientific papers

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about this

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phenomenon.

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Who who originally developed this idea? Was it

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was it scientific spun out of the University

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research lab? Or was it created outside of

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academia?

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Yes. So the Z bench has been around

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for a very long time, and it was

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actually 1 of the very first fusion concepts

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ever

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a pursued in the lab.

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But 1 challenge that was ran into was

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that the traditional z pinch, meaning 1 that

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isn't flowing

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is Mh d unstable. And what that means

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is that the plasma

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exhibits these very fast growing insta abilities that

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tend to make it fall apart.

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And so our insight and this was originally

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developed at the University of Washington and Seattle

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is this concept of shared flow

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stabilization.

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And what it's stabilizing is specifically the z

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bench that otherwise would be unstable.

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So this was invented by professor Y Sc

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luck at University of Washington,

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and he published the original stability paper in

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the mid nineties.

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And that was really developed at the university

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until the 20 tens, which then spun out

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into Zap energy with the help of Department

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of Energy.

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I see. And and so what at what

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stage

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are you in developing this technology, Derek?

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Have you seen evidence of fusion within your

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your plasma? Or are you still at the

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point where you're trying to

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increase the density of your plasma and increase

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the temperature of your plasma, so that at

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some point,

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those are high enough to to, you know,

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for your

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nuclei to start fusing together.

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Yeah. So we have seen extensive evidence of

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fusion occurring,

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on every... Nearly every single shot of our

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devices, we do make Dd d d fusion

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neutrons,

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and when we make measurements of these plasma,

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they are

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above 1KV

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or around 11000000

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degrees.

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There we've seen evidence all the way up

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to around 37000000

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degrees so far. And that's hot enough to

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make fusion. So that's a self consistent

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observation.

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Currently, we're still increasing the performance of our

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devices in pursuit of breakeven

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conditions.

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Meaning that we make more power out from

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fusion that you put into the plasma to

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to make it happen.

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And and, of course, that's the... That... I

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suppose that's a the difficult but, you know,

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not saying that what you've done already

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hasn't been difficult.

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But so what do you need to do?

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What sort of engineering challenges and perhaps even

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physics challenges, do you have to overcome,

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to turn this into a practical way of

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generating

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energy?

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Sure. So I'll start with the the plasma

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physics part. And in short, our

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model for how we get to high performance

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is through this concept of adi

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pressure.

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And so you can think that if you

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start with a Z pinch at a relatively

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low plasma current. And then you ramp that

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current to higher values pressure that's increasing this

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the size of the magnetic field that's compressing.

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So you can kind of think of this

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as, like ramping the car as, like pushing

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in a piston.

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And getting it to higher densities and temperatures.

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And so we have to have a pulse

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power system that's able to

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supply the correct amount of plasma current, which

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for this concept is on the order of

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a mega. So a million amps of current

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going through this, very tiny wire that is

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a z punch.

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And so the challenge is ensuring that when

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you put in that current

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It ends up arranging

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into the equilibrium that you want

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with a high performance plasma in the core

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of it.

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And so right now, at zap, we're focused

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on how to realize

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the peak performance z pinch

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in the lab. And we've been making a

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lot of progress on that. Every day, I

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feel like we're increasing the performance of ever

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so more. And we still have a little

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bit to go, but we are getting closer

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to our our main milestone that we're focused

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on, which is scientific breakeven.

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I see. And and you're you're operating this

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in a in a sort of a pulse

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mode.

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Are are you... Is is this sort of

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continuous in the sense that, I don't know.

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You're doing a... A pulse every minute and

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gathering lots of data, or or is a

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pulse sort of a big deal in the

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sense that, you know, it... You... You've got

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to I don't know. Save up your plasma,

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and then you could do it once a

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day,

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or is it, you know, somewhere in between

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Yeah. So this is more towards the I,

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the engineering requirements to make this concept work.

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And so the design point for the pilot

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plant and eventual power plant. Based on this

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technology,

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is that of a pulse system.

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And so the idea is that we're gonna

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produce a Z pinch plasma,

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that dwell making fusion energy for around a

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hundred to 200 micro seconds.

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And then after that pulse is finished, we

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then reset the machine for another pulse in

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our target frequency of running is 10 hertz.

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So 10 cycles per second,

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with each pulse making about 20 mega joules

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fusion yield. And so doing the math quickly,

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that's around an average power of 200 megawatts

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output.

278
00:11:17,672 --> 00:11:18,866
For the for the core?

279
00:11:19,821 --> 00:11:22,208
And and how... I mean, I I know

280
00:11:22,208 --> 00:11:24,436
this is maybe looking further into the future,

281
00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:26,720
but how how would you get that

282
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:27,799
energy out.

283
00:11:29,639 --> 00:11:31,339
I'm guessing you've got lots of

284
00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:34,815
neutrons and radiation flying off in all direct

285
00:11:34,934 --> 00:11:35,173
actions.

286
00:11:36,128 --> 00:11:36,628
How

287
00:11:37,323 --> 00:11:38,937
how would you capture that

288
00:11:39,871 --> 00:11:42,180
and and exchange it into heat that or

289
00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:44,905
convert into heat that ultimately could be used.

290
00:11:45,862 --> 00:11:48,276
Yeah. That's great question. So for our first

291
00:11:48,334 --> 00:11:49,871
generation systems, we're targeting

292
00:11:50,249 --> 00:11:51,706
a d tri

293
00:11:52,322 --> 00:11:53,040
fusion fuel cycle.

294
00:11:54,331 --> 00:11:57,043
Primarily because it requires the lowest temperatures to

295
00:11:57,043 --> 00:11:59,834
reach very high fusion powered densities. But to

296
00:11:59,834 --> 00:12:03,278
your point, exactly the D reaction makes releases

297
00:12:03,278 --> 00:12:04,873
as most of its energy in the form

298
00:12:04,873 --> 00:12:06,229
of these high energy neutrons.

299
00:12:06,866 --> 00:12:07,823
And so our

300
00:12:08,461 --> 00:12:11,173
our design for the power plant is to

301
00:12:11,173 --> 00:12:13,974
surround the z pinch plasma column, which is

302
00:12:13,974 --> 00:12:15,406
about 50 centimeters long,

303
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,053
with a liquid metal blanket

304
00:12:18,427 --> 00:12:21,290
and actually have that liquid metal directly facing

305
00:12:21,290 --> 00:12:22,918
and serving as the anode

306
00:12:23,373 --> 00:12:24,249
of the plasma.

307
00:12:25,283 --> 00:12:27,352
And so that liquid metal we're envisioning to

308
00:12:27,352 --> 00:12:31,129
be most likely lead lithium, the or even

309
00:12:31,424 --> 00:12:33,650
potentially just p and facing the plasma.

310
00:12:34,285 --> 00:12:36,852
And the purpose of that is to capture

311
00:12:36,988 --> 00:12:38,896
neutrons coming from that plasma.

312
00:12:39,469 --> 00:12:42,340
Slow them down and capture their kinetic energy

313
00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:44,812
and make them into thermal energy. But also

314
00:12:44,812 --> 00:12:47,364
there's lithium in that blanket to then react

315
00:12:47,364 --> 00:12:50,483
with those thermal neutrons, to produce tri so

316
00:12:50,483 --> 00:12:52,945
we can have the entire fuel cycle be

317
00:12:52,945 --> 00:12:53,818
closed and complete.

318
00:12:54,771 --> 00:12:55,247
I see.

319
00:12:55,962 --> 00:12:58,207
And and what sort of time frame are

320
00:12:58,207 --> 00:12:59,085
you working on,

321
00:13:00,282 --> 00:13:02,916
you know, to go from the situation today

322
00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:04,613
where you you know you're generating

323
00:13:04,991 --> 00:13:05,230
fusion.

324
00:13:05,804 --> 00:13:07,959
But not enough of it to make a

325
00:13:07,959 --> 00:13:08,459
practical

326
00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:11,310
power source. When... What, I mean, when do

327
00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:12,906
you think that you could,

328
00:13:14,114 --> 00:13:17,073
you know, start thinking about building AAA practical

329
00:13:17,603 --> 00:13:18,476
source of energy.

330
00:13:19,507 --> 00:13:21,093
Yeah. Great question. And so

331
00:13:21,824 --> 00:13:24,618
that, we're very focused on the the speed

332
00:13:24,618 --> 00:13:26,614
to market. And so the way to do

333
00:13:26,614 --> 00:13:27,513
that in practice

334
00:13:27,891 --> 00:13:30,047
is that we're developing a lot of these

335
00:13:30,047 --> 00:13:31,578
technologies and and parallel.

336
00:13:32,457 --> 00:13:34,133
And so I am in R and d

337
00:13:34,133 --> 00:13:36,608
at Zap. And so we're basically focused on

338
00:13:36,608 --> 00:13:37,108
getting

339
00:13:37,566 --> 00:13:40,361
1 piston stroke of the machine to high

340
00:13:40,361 --> 00:13:40,520
gain.

341
00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:43,798
And so once we have 1 piston stroke,

342
00:13:43,958 --> 00:13:46,844
then we can go into the internal combustion

343
00:13:46,901 --> 00:13:49,465
engine, getting to 10 cycles per second.

344
00:13:50,183 --> 00:13:51,778
So the way to do that though is

345
00:13:51,778 --> 00:13:53,532
that you need to develop the liquid metal

346
00:13:53,532 --> 00:13:56,084
technology. You need to develop the repetitive pulse

347
00:13:56,084 --> 00:13:56,903
power technology,

348
00:13:57,613 --> 00:13:59,678
and everything else that's required to make a

349
00:13:59,678 --> 00:14:01,823
power plant. So we are working on that

350
00:14:01,823 --> 00:14:04,048
in parallel right now, so we actually do

351
00:14:04,048 --> 00:14:05,898
have liquid metal loops

352
00:14:06,207 --> 00:14:07,238
flowing right now,

353
00:14:08,032 --> 00:14:10,277
which are using business as a proxy

354
00:14:10,887 --> 00:14:13,584
for lead at the moment for simplicity,

355
00:14:14,234 --> 00:14:16,472
but also we're working on repetitive pulse power

356
00:14:16,472 --> 00:14:17,531
systems as well

357
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:20,947
in house, and high high

358
00:14:21,586 --> 00:14:22,625
performance cathode,

359
00:14:23,118 --> 00:14:25,349
which basically is instead of doing 1 shot

360
00:14:25,349 --> 00:14:26,942
every 3 minutes, which is what we do

361
00:14:26,942 --> 00:14:29,013
right now. We're doing 10 cycles a second.

362
00:14:29,173 --> 00:14:31,323
We have to actively cool those electrodes in

363
00:14:31,323 --> 00:14:32,930
order to make sure they stay at the

364
00:14:32,930 --> 00:14:33,566
right temperatures.

365
00:14:34,122 --> 00:14:35,813
So we're doing all that in parallel

366
00:14:36,267 --> 00:14:38,253
along with R and D with the intent

367
00:14:38,253 --> 00:14:40,160
to then bring it together and deploy a

368
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:40,716
pilot plant,

369
00:14:41,527 --> 00:14:43,515
most likely around the turn of the next

370
00:14:43,515 --> 00:14:45,424
decade? So around 20 30 or so?

371
00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:48,623
I see. And and can you talk a,

372
00:14:48,941 --> 00:14:51,174
a bit about the company itself? I mean,

373
00:14:51,493 --> 00:14:53,566
how many employees do you have? And,

374
00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:56,197
what's, you know, what sort of things do

375
00:14:56,197 --> 00:14:58,610
they do? I'm guessing, you do you employ

376
00:14:58,610 --> 00:15:00,610
physicists as well as engineers?

377
00:15:01,649 --> 00:15:03,889
Yes. Yes. So right now, I believe our

378
00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:05,897
head count on Zap all in is around

379
00:15:05,897 --> 00:15:07,089
a hundred and 50 people.

380
00:15:08,202 --> 00:15:10,371
As I kind of alluded to just recently,

381
00:15:10,825 --> 00:15:13,210
since we're developing all of these technologies in

382
00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:13,687
parallel,

383
00:15:14,498 --> 00:15:16,407
it takes quite the team to do that.

384
00:15:16,884 --> 00:15:18,714
And so in the R and D division,

385
00:15:18,873 --> 00:15:21,738
you know, we have Plasma physicists like myself

386
00:15:21,976 --> 00:15:24,854
that are focused on, getting that performance up

387
00:15:24,854 --> 00:15:26,840
to as high as we can in a

388
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:27,397
pulse mode.

389
00:15:28,271 --> 00:15:30,496
But we also have an army of engineers

390
00:15:30,496 --> 00:15:34,005
who are responsible for building these devices, so

391
00:15:34,005 --> 00:15:36,624
we can actually experimentally test things beyond theory.

392
00:15:37,576 --> 00:15:38,949
And then we also have

393
00:15:39,322 --> 00:15:40,774
technicians as well who

394
00:15:41,083 --> 00:15:43,308
help the engineers machine, all of these components.

395
00:15:43,467 --> 00:15:44,977
We have the machine shop that I'm right

396
00:15:44,977 --> 00:15:47,520
in front of doing this podcast, which hopefully

397
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,076
is quite enough,

398
00:15:49,126 --> 00:15:51,698
and all of these people work together to

399
00:15:51,835 --> 00:15:53,132
develop these incredible

400
00:15:53,588 --> 00:15:56,138
components and platforms for testing and quick iteration.

401
00:15:57,253 --> 00:15:59,662
We have that as tire team as well

402
00:15:59,662 --> 00:16:02,459
on the systems engineering side, which is focused

403
00:16:02,459 --> 00:16:05,095
on the liquid metal technology repetitive pulse power.

404
00:16:05,669 --> 00:16:08,230
And the high performance materials development.

405
00:16:09,189 --> 00:16:11,110
So across the gamut, so there are definitely,

406
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:14,629
many opportunities for physicists, we're always looking to

407
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:15,129
add

408
00:16:15,763 --> 00:16:17,677
strategically to where we we need to build

409
00:16:17,677 --> 00:16:20,309
out our team even more. I see. And

410
00:16:20,787 --> 00:16:22,303
I think there's no doubt that

411
00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:24,536
fusion is is is a growing.

412
00:16:25,669 --> 00:16:26,148
Sector.

413
00:16:26,947 --> 00:16:28,705
What... I mean, what sort of advice would

414
00:16:28,705 --> 00:16:30,862
you give to, you know, somebody who's maybe

415
00:16:30,862 --> 00:16:31,362
ph

416
00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:34,808
finishing up a physics degree and interested

417
00:16:35,185 --> 00:16:37,418
in working in the fusion sector. What

418
00:16:37,976 --> 00:16:39,810
you know, what should they be doing to

419
00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:40,527
prepare themselves,

420
00:16:41,418 --> 00:16:43,821
you know, for that job interview at Zap

421
00:16:43,875 --> 00:16:45,540
energy or a another company.

422
00:16:46,729 --> 00:16:48,710
Yeah. So I would say right now is,

423
00:16:48,884 --> 00:16:50,396
is kind of the best time in in

424
00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:51,988
history to get into fusion,

425
00:16:52,864 --> 00:16:54,558
just because there's an incredible

426
00:16:54,933 --> 00:16:57,898
just ecosystem developing of of both public and

427
00:16:57,898 --> 00:17:00,056
now an extensive private sector,

428
00:17:00,855 --> 00:17:02,613
with a lot of investors that are willing

429
00:17:02,613 --> 00:17:04,691
to go the distance with us to to

430
00:17:04,691 --> 00:17:05,970
commercial these technologies,

431
00:17:06,705 --> 00:17:08,625
And I would... My advice would be to

432
00:17:08,625 --> 00:17:10,465
really narrow in as much as you can

433
00:17:10,465 --> 00:17:11,985
and, what you would like to do the

434
00:17:11,985 --> 00:17:13,345
most, what you would enjoy doing.

435
00:17:14,634 --> 00:17:17,020
If you... For example, want to work on

436
00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:19,885
the plasma, quote physics part and getting the

437
00:17:19,885 --> 00:17:20,521
fusion performance,

438
00:17:21,492 --> 00:17:24,545
advancing, that's more towards, like, getting it Phd

439
00:17:24,763 --> 00:17:25,640
in plasma physics.

440
00:17:26,677 --> 00:17:29,229
But if you still wanna contribute meaningfully to

441
00:17:29,229 --> 00:17:30,585
the commercialization of fusion.

442
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,880
There is absolutely no requirement to go the

443
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,519
Phd and plasma physics route. There are so

444
00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:37,019
many

445
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,607
needs for engineers and technicians. And frankly speaking,

446
00:17:40,687 --> 00:17:43,549
as we get closer to commercialization, those are

447
00:17:43,549 --> 00:17:45,696
the people we're going to need most to

448
00:17:45,696 --> 00:17:47,843
build these devices and deploy them and connect

449
00:17:47,843 --> 00:17:49,036
them to electrical grids.

450
00:17:50,164 --> 00:17:52,388
So I would really just go with your...

451
00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:54,532
Where you find the most interest with your

452
00:17:54,532 --> 00:17:57,336
career. And most likely you'll find a home

453
00:17:57,392 --> 00:17:59,473
infusion because there's so many different things need

454
00:17:59,473 --> 00:17:59,952
to advance.

455
00:18:00,829 --> 00:18:02,584
And and Derek, you you touched on the

456
00:18:02,584 --> 00:18:04,976
fact that there there there is a growing

457
00:18:04,976 --> 00:18:08,028
interest, both in government, the investment community

458
00:18:08,404 --> 00:18:08,460
we

459
00:18:09,218 --> 00:18:12,090
in companies that are trying to develop small

460
00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:13,526
scale fusion technologies.

461
00:18:13,925 --> 00:18:16,730
What do you think is is driving this

462
00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:17,548
interest or

463
00:18:18,478 --> 00:18:20,067
should it be seen as, you know, we're

464
00:18:20,067 --> 00:18:20,964
getting closer

465
00:18:21,417 --> 00:18:23,721
to Fusion after, you know, sort of years

466
00:18:23,721 --> 00:18:25,412
of it being something

467
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,105
off in the distance. It it sort of

468
00:18:28,105 --> 00:18:30,330
feels like that to to me. Is that

469
00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:31,443
is that how you see it?

470
00:18:32,317 --> 00:18:34,463
Yes. So I definitely think it's a case

471
00:18:34,463 --> 00:18:36,701
that we are getting closer. And I I

472
00:18:36,701 --> 00:18:38,233
would say we've kind of hit this

473
00:18:38,606 --> 00:18:42,440
critical mass of understanding from the just foundational

474
00:18:42,496 --> 00:18:46,031
physics standpoint getting of the requirements for making

475
00:18:46,168 --> 00:18:47,043
infusion system work.

476
00:18:47,998 --> 00:18:50,249
And so once you have that really good

477
00:18:50,386 --> 00:18:51,602
understanding that we've been

478
00:18:51,994 --> 00:18:55,026
spent the last half century developing from scratch

479
00:18:55,026 --> 00:18:55,505
effectively.

480
00:18:56,064 --> 00:18:58,936
Now you... You're transitioning more towards an engineering

481
00:18:58,936 --> 00:18:59,336
problem,

482
00:19:00,307 --> 00:19:01,821
But I think to your point of, you

483
00:19:01,821 --> 00:19:03,813
know, why there's so much interest from the

484
00:19:03,813 --> 00:19:06,066
investment community and some of these more compact

485
00:19:06,124 --> 00:19:06,522
approaches.

486
00:19:07,333 --> 00:19:09,163
I think it it comes from the realization

487
00:19:09,163 --> 00:19:11,072
that once you get closer, you you you

488
00:19:11,072 --> 00:19:13,720
realize the goal isn't just hitting break.

489
00:19:14,507 --> 00:19:16,893
The goal is deploying a power plant that

490
00:19:16,893 --> 00:19:19,460
someone's willing to purchase and and pay electricity

491
00:19:19,835 --> 00:19:20,074
from.

492
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:22,539
And so when you think of that as

493
00:19:22,539 --> 00:19:26,218
the standard of what's the best approach. It

494
00:19:26,218 --> 00:19:29,009
starts changing your your your calculations of what

495
00:19:29,009 --> 00:19:31,880
you should be investing in overall. And what

496
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,395
type of product you're developing?

497
00:19:34,288 --> 00:19:36,442
And I think that the challenge with fusion

498
00:19:36,442 --> 00:19:38,058
and general or frankly, any

499
00:19:38,436 --> 00:19:40,590
technology development that's focused on energy.

500
00:19:41,241 --> 00:19:43,489
Is that it's very much deep technology

501
00:19:44,021 --> 00:19:46,642
development, but then you're trying to deploy into

502
00:19:46,642 --> 00:19:49,756
a commodities market at the end, which tends

503
00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:52,542
to be pretty regulated and also quite competitive

504
00:19:52,542 --> 00:19:53,338
in some cases.

505
00:19:54,214 --> 00:19:56,681
And so trying to match the the product,

506
00:19:57,254 --> 00:20:00,046
with the market and acknowledging that there's still

507
00:20:00,046 --> 00:20:01,561
a lot of work to to be done

508
00:20:01,561 --> 00:20:02,279
to commercial.

509
00:20:02,837 --> 00:20:04,592
I think it's a very exciting time and

510
00:20:04,672 --> 00:20:07,039
I applaud the investors for willing to take

511
00:20:07,159 --> 00:20:08,596
take this endeavor on,

512
00:20:09,394 --> 00:20:12,208
because whoever's is gonna win the race or

513
00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:14,582
whoever meaning the group of people that will

514
00:20:14,582 --> 00:20:16,506
win the race, are the people that end

515
00:20:16,506 --> 00:20:17,775
up making the best product.

516
00:20:18,568 --> 00:20:21,187
And I think that's where Zap really shines

517
00:20:21,187 --> 00:20:22,932
and what that will eventually look like would

518
00:20:22,932 --> 00:20:23,646
connected to the grid.

519
00:20:24,698 --> 00:20:25,916
And and what about,

520
00:20:26,374 --> 00:20:28,471
you know, the sort of growing concern

521
00:20:28,849 --> 00:20:30,046
over the environment.

522
00:20:30,685 --> 00:20:32,601
You know, if you guys succeed or if

523
00:20:32,601 --> 00:20:33,733
somebody else, succeeds.

524
00:20:35,091 --> 00:20:36,927
We could have a a source of energy

525
00:20:36,927 --> 00:20:38,704
with a with a very small

526
00:20:39,402 --> 00:20:39,902
environmental

527
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,877
footprint. Do you think do you think that

528
00:20:41,877 --> 00:20:42,856
that's driving

529
00:20:43,169 --> 00:20:45,870
both the investment community and also people who

530
00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:47,856
are setting up companies and and going to

531
00:20:47,856 --> 00:20:49,683
work for companies like Z.

532
00:20:50,731 --> 00:20:53,118
Yeah. I definitely do. And many of our

533
00:20:53,118 --> 00:20:56,300
investors are, you, from the space of climate

534
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:58,607
tech where their focused specifically on companies,

535
00:20:59,258 --> 00:21:01,478
that are aiming to reduce carbon emissions and

536
00:21:01,478 --> 00:21:02,667
and another pollution,

537
00:21:03,697 --> 00:21:06,765
while still providing a source of, clean energy

538
00:21:07,439 --> 00:21:09,502
and I think there's this this kind of

539
00:21:09,502 --> 00:21:10,955
renewed interest in

540
00:21:11,328 --> 00:21:14,264
power sources that are reliable, meaning that they're

541
00:21:14,264 --> 00:21:14,978
on demand.

542
00:21:16,029 --> 00:21:17,230
Fusion is 1 of those

543
00:21:17,789 --> 00:21:20,590
sources of low low carbon or no carbon

544
00:21:20,590 --> 00:21:21,650
as part of the process

545
00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:22,590
itself.

546
00:21:24,038 --> 00:21:26,424
Reliable forms of energy. And so when you

547
00:21:26,424 --> 00:21:28,971
think about having something like fusion to work

548
00:21:28,971 --> 00:21:31,676
in concert with renewables like wind and solar,

549
00:21:32,408 --> 00:21:35,278
You start thinking about grids that are actually

550
00:21:35,278 --> 00:21:36,814
able to achieve deep d,

551
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:40,221
while still having a very high uptime.

552
00:21:41,113 --> 00:21:43,346
And I think that's incredibly motivating and you

553
00:21:43,346 --> 00:21:46,455
can effectively have your clean energy and your

554
00:21:46,455 --> 00:21:48,289
reliability at the same time, which I think

555
00:21:48,289 --> 00:21:49,245
is what everyone wants.

556
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:52,940
Well, that's great. Thanks so much, Derek, for

557
00:21:52,940 --> 00:21:55,339
coming on the on the podcast and talking

558
00:21:55,339 --> 00:21:57,579
about zap energy. It's my pleasure. Thanks for

559
00:21:57,579 --> 00:21:57,899
having me.

560
00:22:04,659 --> 00:22:07,238
Physics world is brought to you but Io

561
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publishing,

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which is pleased to announce that the journal

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progress in energy is extending its article Remit.

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At Now ce original research.

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This means that you can publish your groundbreaking

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alongside some of our most impactful and cited

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reviews on energy research.

569
00:22:29,315 --> 00:22:31,785
We invite you to publish with us and

570
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share your groundbreaking

571
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work with a global audience

572
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P

573
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is a high impact, multi

574
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disciplinary journal focusing on a wide range of

575
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issues.

576
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Related to the global

577
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energy transition, and you can find it at

578
00:22:49,364 --> 00:22:50,475
Io science,

579
00:22:57,716 --> 00:23:01,408
of the 4 fundamental forces of nature, gravity

580
00:23:01,466 --> 00:23:04,916
is probably the most familiar to non physicists.

581
00:23:05,851 --> 00:23:09,040
But despite its ubi in our daily lives,

582
00:23:09,454 --> 00:23:12,398
there's a huge gap in our understanding of

583
00:23:12,398 --> 00:23:14,887
gravity that's confounded physicists

584
00:23:15,421 --> 00:23:16,319
for a century.

585
00:23:17,429 --> 00:23:20,490
What we know and don't know about gravity

586
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:21,609
is chronic

587
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:23,750
in the beauty of falling.

588
00:23:24,243 --> 00:23:26,788
Which is a new popular science book by

589
00:23:27,027 --> 00:23:28,061
Claudia Dora.

590
00:23:28,936 --> 00:23:30,709
She's a theoretical physicist,

591
00:23:31,179 --> 00:23:32,478
based at the Uk's

592
00:23:32,937 --> 00:23:35,994
Imperial College, and here she is in

593
00:23:36,373 --> 00:23:39,330
conversation with physics world's mat Du.

594
00:23:46,544 --> 00:23:49,268
Some delighted joined by Claudia Dev arm, who's

595
00:23:49,268 --> 00:23:51,257
written a new book called the beauty of

596
00:23:51,257 --> 00:23:54,120
falling. Hello. Claudia, and Nice have you. So

597
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:55,631
do you wanna tell us all about the

598
00:23:55,631 --> 00:23:55,924
book coined

599
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,430
what's it about? And why did you decide

600
00:23:58,430 --> 00:24:01,213
to to write it? U. Yes. Absolutely.

601
00:24:02,167 --> 00:24:04,155
So maybe I can start with, our first?

602
00:24:04,409 --> 00:24:05,605
First of all, thanks a lot for having

603
00:24:05,605 --> 00:24:07,040
me. It's great to talk about it.

604
00:24:08,795 --> 00:24:11,426
Maybe why I I wanted to to write

605
00:24:11,426 --> 00:24:13,100
it and and I think he came very

606
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:14,946
much. From a desire to share,

607
00:24:16,299 --> 00:24:18,289
not only what we do in science in

608
00:24:18,289 --> 00:24:20,279
the type of research, which I far very

609
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:21,289
exciting myself

610
00:24:21,888 --> 00:24:24,461
to share to share that. But also

611
00:24:25,397 --> 00:24:27,232
to share how we do science, How we

612
00:24:27,232 --> 00:24:27,870
do physics,

613
00:24:28,348 --> 00:24:30,741
and and hopefully engage a little bit more

614
00:24:30,741 --> 00:24:32,431
about some of those aspects that may seem

615
00:24:32,431 --> 00:24:33,649
a little bit remote

616
00:24:34,026 --> 00:24:34,585
to people.

617
00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:38,333
And the firm there is in in in

618
00:24:38,333 --> 00:24:40,008
doing that. I think

619
00:24:40,806 --> 00:24:42,807
1 of the aspect for me, which is

620
00:24:42,807 --> 00:24:44,180
very important is that

621
00:24:45,028 --> 00:24:48,544
I'm scientist, but we all are scientist and

622
00:24:48,774 --> 00:24:50,609
it's it's about a little bit

623
00:24:51,168 --> 00:24:51,668
awakening

624
00:24:52,285 --> 00:24:54,120
this drive that I think we we all

625
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,077
have in ourselves,

626
00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:56,136
and

627
00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:59,410
ideally, making people realize that that they have

628
00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:01,509
it in themselves as well and

629
00:25:02,769 --> 00:25:04,862
exploring some of those questions is thing that

630
00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:06,851
they may want to consider or at least

631
00:25:06,851 --> 00:25:09,159
they can feel... They can relate to to

632
00:25:09,159 --> 00:25:09,716
some extent.

633
00:25:12,518 --> 00:25:13,975
People sometimes ask me

634
00:25:14,511 --> 00:25:16,107
who I would like to most connect with

635
00:25:16,107 --> 00:25:17,144
and and I think it's...

636
00:25:17,861 --> 00:25:19,377
Ideally you like to connect with people that

637
00:25:19,377 --> 00:25:21,073
are naturally curious. But

638
00:25:22,024 --> 00:25:24,182
perhaps I would even more want to connect

639
00:25:24,182 --> 00:25:26,999
with people who don't even realize how much

640
00:25:27,218 --> 00:25:30,355
they have it in themselves in build curiosity.

641
00:25:31,707 --> 00:25:34,181
How how there's a little fire in themselves

642
00:25:34,181 --> 00:25:35,239
wanting to

643
00:25:36,016 --> 00:25:37,532
address some of the questions that we all

644
00:25:37,532 --> 00:25:40,502
ask ourselves, and realizing for them to realize

645
00:25:40,502 --> 00:25:42,021
that they are part of it. They are

646
00:25:42,021 --> 00:25:45,317
part of this human and never human journey

647
00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:48,187
in trying to explore and always pushing the

648
00:25:48,187 --> 00:25:49,381
frontiers of our of our knowledge.

649
00:25:50,097 --> 00:25:51,928
So the the title is the beauty of

650
00:25:51,928 --> 00:25:52,326
falling,

651
00:25:53,201 --> 00:25:55,828
and the falling aspect of it very much

652
00:25:55,828 --> 00:25:58,548
is is a gravitational aspect. Of it. I'm

653
00:25:58,548 --> 00:26:00,773
a third physicist and I work on,

654
00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:05,089
various aspect of cosmology, but particularly of gravity

655
00:26:05,959 --> 00:26:09,714
understanding how to describe this fundamental phenomenon, this

656
00:26:09,714 --> 00:26:11,472
fundamental force. I would say it is a

657
00:26:11,472 --> 00:26:12,532
full down

658
00:26:12,991 --> 00:26:13,810
of gravity

659
00:26:14,204 --> 00:26:16,224
So it goes a little bit through an

660
00:26:16,365 --> 00:26:19,325
introduction of how, Our understanding of this fundamentals

661
00:26:19,325 --> 00:26:21,424
phenomenon has evolved throughout the centuries.

662
00:26:22,139 --> 00:26:24,848
And how Einstein einstein's Therapy general activity provides

663
00:26:24,848 --> 00:26:27,079
a very good description for gravity,

664
00:26:27,557 --> 00:26:28,774
but also how

665
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,143
1 of the most precious aspect of of

666
00:26:33,382 --> 00:26:34,757
Einstein's the original activity

667
00:26:35,132 --> 00:26:37,439
is that it fails at some points. And

668
00:26:37,439 --> 00:26:39,526
that is to some life on the beauty

669
00:26:39,526 --> 00:26:39,925
falling,

670
00:26:41,042 --> 00:26:43,696
falling in the theory itself. The the theory

671
00:26:43,755 --> 00:26:46,503
does feel and embracing this failure

672
00:26:46,875 --> 00:26:48,541
is to my mind, 1 of the best

673
00:26:48,541 --> 00:26:50,310
feature that the theory could have

674
00:26:50,683 --> 00:26:52,690
because it really shows us that

675
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:54,673
there's not an not to be truth. There's

676
00:26:54,673 --> 00:26:56,608
not an of knowledge, and

677
00:26:56,985 --> 00:26:59,615
that's it. We we we got it and

678
00:26:59,615 --> 00:27:01,184
and that's it. The

679
00:27:01,623 --> 00:27:04,434
when we do research and when we explore

680
00:27:04,652 --> 00:27:06,963
the world when we do science, it's always

681
00:27:06,963 --> 00:27:07,862
a continuous

682
00:27:08,477 --> 00:27:08,955
ad.

683
00:27:09,449 --> 00:27:11,048
And and so if we know that our

684
00:27:11,048 --> 00:27:12,986
theory, like Einstein's theory general

685
00:27:13,365 --> 00:27:13,685
fails.

686
00:27:14,884 --> 00:27:16,961
Is this the best feature, the theory can

687
00:27:16,961 --> 00:27:18,934
have because it tells us where to look

688
00:27:19,133 --> 00:27:22,231
for new discoveries. We don't need to do

689
00:27:22,231 --> 00:27:24,535
lots of observations. Of course, we do. But

690
00:27:24,535 --> 00:27:26,124
we don't need to do lots of observations

691
00:27:26,124 --> 00:27:29,722
and wait until there's a mismatch between observations

692
00:27:29,722 --> 00:27:32,433
and the vertical predictions. Actually, we already know

693
00:27:32,433 --> 00:27:34,346
from the outset that they will become a

694
00:27:34,346 --> 00:27:36,021
point where we need to...

695
00:27:36,754 --> 00:27:39,951
And cover new layers of physics. Something else

696
00:27:39,951 --> 00:27:40,750
has to come in.

697
00:27:41,949 --> 00:27:43,787
And to me is it's very exciting.

698
00:27:44,346 --> 00:27:46,185
Actually when things don't quite work out, a

699
00:27:46,185 --> 00:27:48,698
about 1 it's really exciting and we know

700
00:27:48,757 --> 00:27:49,955
there's something else there.

701
00:27:51,554 --> 00:27:53,232
And so it goes through a little bit

702
00:27:53,232 --> 00:27:54,510
on on how we know.

703
00:27:55,325 --> 00:27:58,125
From the outset that there there is a

704
00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:00,765
point of failure. There's a... There's a time

705
00:28:00,765 --> 00:28:03,565
where the original activity does fail. And,

706
00:28:05,099 --> 00:28:07,735
how to embrace that aspect and move forward

707
00:28:07,735 --> 00:28:10,552
from it and how you understand how to

708
00:28:10,851 --> 00:28:11,750
how to even

709
00:28:12,064 --> 00:28:13,583
try to address some of the questions. When

710
00:28:13,583 --> 00:28:16,060
we know things don't work out, sometimes it's

711
00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:18,617
difficult to even appreciate how to... What is

712
00:28:18,617 --> 00:28:20,375
the right question to ask ourselves.

713
00:28:21,348 --> 00:28:24,163
Particularly when we're dealing with, gravity,

714
00:28:24,621 --> 00:28:25,999
which in itself is

715
00:28:27,096 --> 00:28:29,410
the description of space and time themselves,

716
00:28:29,984 --> 00:28:32,082
And so the tools we typically use

717
00:28:32,461 --> 00:28:33,660
to describe what happens,

718
00:28:34,619 --> 00:28:37,735
does rely on some perception of space and

719
00:28:37,735 --> 00:28:40,940
time, every question we ask ourselves typically relies

720
00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:42,614
on what happens there?

721
00:28:43,411 --> 00:28:45,563
Oh, 0, or, such type of question of

722
00:28:45,563 --> 00:28:46,575
which kind of

723
00:28:47,091 --> 00:28:49,315
includes the notion of space and include of

724
00:28:49,315 --> 00:28:51,778
time. And if we know that what we

725
00:28:51,778 --> 00:28:54,184
have at our disposal or to describe this

726
00:28:54,399 --> 00:28:54,796
fails,

727
00:28:55,289 --> 00:28:57,769
the very notion of space and times, maybe

728
00:28:57,769 --> 00:28:59,450
stop making sense in themselves.

729
00:29:00,009 --> 00:29:01,929
And had to ask ourselves the question of

730
00:29:01,929 --> 00:29:03,849
how to describe what it goes beyond that,

731
00:29:04,343 --> 00:29:05,536
is tricky in itself.

732
00:29:06,411 --> 00:29:08,716
But that's good. That's excellent. We we need

733
00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:11,897
to invent new languages to to explain that.

734
00:29:12,627 --> 00:29:14,851
So that title falling in gravity. There's quite

735
00:29:14,851 --> 00:29:15,724
a clever play on,

736
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,378
the the idea of it falling down, and

737
00:29:19,378 --> 00:29:20,252
also, obviously,

738
00:29:20,744 --> 00:29:22,656
gravity something that makes you fall down. So

739
00:29:22,656 --> 00:29:24,090
who who came up with who came up

740
00:29:24,090 --> 00:29:25,604
with that title? Was that you or the

741
00:29:25,604 --> 00:29:26,002
publisher?

742
00:29:27,038 --> 00:29:28,393
If I, I think he was always in

743
00:29:28,393 --> 00:29:29,907
the back of my mind did this

744
00:29:30,639 --> 00:29:32,817
The the beauty was essential because

745
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,194
to my mind it, it's something which which

746
00:29:35,194 --> 00:29:38,230
is beautiful. It it's not... It it's about

747
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:40,965
sharing this. Side of how exciting and fun,

748
00:29:41,205 --> 00:29:42,265
but really beautiful,

749
00:29:43,045 --> 00:29:44,805
it is. And falling it...

750
00:29:46,244 --> 00:29:48,660
It is it's very much in me because

751
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:50,180
I go through the book as well,

752
00:29:51,299 --> 00:29:53,539
through some of aspects of of my own

753
00:29:53,539 --> 00:29:53,859
life.

754
00:29:54,673 --> 00:29:56,420
As a as a human and as a

755
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:56,897
scientist.

756
00:29:57,850 --> 00:30:01,901
And in the scientists scientific research falling and

757
00:30:01,901 --> 00:30:04,046
failing is also part of the process.

758
00:30:04,537 --> 00:30:06,839
And so that that that was always clear

759
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:08,744
from the outset that we have to embrace

760
00:30:08,744 --> 00:30:11,815
this failure in in everyday life

761
00:30:12,411 --> 00:30:14,082
so I goes through the book in in

762
00:30:14,082 --> 00:30:15,378
my own personal

763
00:30:16,072 --> 00:30:16,572
experiences

764
00:30:17,424 --> 00:30:19,198
with falling and and failing

765
00:30:19,667 --> 00:30:21,973
which is not always particularly comfortable but it's

766
00:30:21,973 --> 00:30:23,564
part of the process. And and there is

767
00:30:23,564 --> 00:30:24,939
a beauty in it in

768
00:30:26,108 --> 00:30:27,460
the aim of the book is very much

769
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:29,074
in uncovering this beauty

770
00:30:29,463 --> 00:30:32,323
me a personal beauty in in falling.

771
00:30:33,435 --> 00:30:35,739
So it came up very naturally that this

772
00:30:35,739 --> 00:30:37,901
was the only... The only possible title for

773
00:30:37,901 --> 00:30:40,447
the book really because he put everything together.

774
00:30:41,242 --> 00:30:42,356
And at the start of the book I

775
00:30:42,356 --> 00:30:43,231
know that you talk about.

776
00:30:43,964 --> 00:30:46,280
Your experience is moving around and the difficulty

777
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,517
with communicated with different languages that you've got

778
00:30:48,517 --> 00:30:49,636
to to struggle with,

779
00:30:50,609 --> 00:30:52,205
So how did that influence how you write

780
00:30:52,205 --> 00:30:54,917
the book and how you approach your workers

781
00:30:54,917 --> 00:30:55,635
as a physicist?

782
00:30:56,114 --> 00:30:58,362
Well, first of all, just... The fact that

783
00:30:58,362 --> 00:31:00,432
you have to connect with different languages, make

784
00:31:00,432 --> 00:31:00,932
it

785
00:31:01,308 --> 00:31:03,698
very clear that the way you connect with

786
00:31:03,698 --> 00:31:05,870
the world is not just through

787
00:31:07,058 --> 00:31:09,553
that language per s. Those are just tools

788
00:31:10,569 --> 00:31:14,055
that allows you to model some more truths

789
00:31:15,048 --> 00:31:16,875
and and for me, that's why it was

790
00:31:16,875 --> 00:31:19,814
very important from an early age. To try

791
00:31:19,814 --> 00:31:21,879
to connect with something which was more reliable.

792
00:31:23,007 --> 00:31:24,540
Talk about more reliable,

793
00:31:25,471 --> 00:31:26,742
channel of a communication,

794
00:31:28,094 --> 00:31:28,594
which

795
00:31:29,206 --> 00:31:30,740
for which there will be less

796
00:31:31,193 --> 00:31:31,511
misunderstanding,

797
00:31:32,642 --> 00:31:34,636
is in some... To some level. I think

798
00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:36,811
for me science it's beautiful in this way

799
00:31:36,869 --> 00:31:39,342
in in that you you realize how you

800
00:31:39,342 --> 00:31:42,226
connect much more closely with phenomena and without

801
00:31:42,226 --> 00:31:44,211
needing to rely as much words, which I

802
00:31:44,211 --> 00:31:45,719
always found it very, very difficult.

803
00:31:46,275 --> 00:31:48,101
And so that's why when I started to

804
00:31:48,101 --> 00:31:48,736
to write the book,

805
00:31:49,784 --> 00:31:52,605
I was always very amused with myself because

806
00:31:52,825 --> 00:31:54,204
writing is really not

807
00:31:55,464 --> 00:31:57,399
and ta is really not my skill. So

808
00:31:57,559 --> 00:31:59,394
I I did find it extremely hard at

809
00:31:59,394 --> 00:32:01,150
at first. But but there is a level

810
00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:02,368
in which you realize

811
00:32:02,985 --> 00:32:03,884
how you just

812
00:32:04,501 --> 00:32:07,071
put down. In words, anything that goes through

813
00:32:07,071 --> 00:32:09,067
through your mind. And then they sort of

814
00:32:09,067 --> 00:32:10,104
organize themselves,

815
00:32:11,382 --> 00:32:13,159
by by themselves, the message

816
00:32:13,777 --> 00:32:14,277
became,

817
00:32:16,503 --> 00:32:19,612
quite clear very naturally and also how the

818
00:32:19,612 --> 00:32:20,112
different

819
00:32:20,728 --> 00:32:22,721
pieces of the story I wanted to tell,

820
00:32:23,214 --> 00:32:24,974
very naturally came in together.

821
00:32:25,855 --> 00:32:28,335
I don't know when people read it what

822
00:32:28,335 --> 00:32:30,755
impression it gives. But it hasn't been

823
00:32:31,055 --> 00:32:33,305
engineers somewhere, in in a way that he

824
00:32:33,305 --> 00:32:36,016
was setting things up. It he came up

825
00:32:36,016 --> 00:32:37,553
very naturally that

826
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:39,924
I sort of learn more much more about

827
00:32:39,924 --> 00:32:42,333
myself in writing the book And in doing

828
00:32:42,333 --> 00:32:44,570
so I realized much more why I had

829
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:47,148
been so eagerly driven by sciences

830
00:32:47,846 --> 00:32:50,573
by by research. High was very natural from

831
00:32:50,573 --> 00:32:52,804
a from an early agent. So fitted in

832
00:32:52,804 --> 00:32:54,658
very nicely in the picture

833
00:32:55,034 --> 00:32:57,595
without needing to to force it in any

834
00:32:57,595 --> 00:32:57,754
way.

835
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:59,900
I think I think it it was I'm

836
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,149
using for me to see how much more

837
00:33:04,128 --> 00:33:06,831
it became natural that what I was doing

838
00:33:06,831 --> 00:33:09,057
as a researcher was the most natural thing

839
00:33:09,137 --> 00:33:10,727
I I could be doing because that's what

840
00:33:10,886 --> 00:33:11,363
I had been.

841
00:33:12,253 --> 00:33:14,484
Driven to from from from the beginning.

842
00:33:15,201 --> 00:33:17,432
So almost writing the book, helped you sort

843
00:33:17,432 --> 00:33:19,997
of realize things about yourself? Perhaps you haven't

844
00:33:19,997 --> 00:33:22,786
realized. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I I love. A

845
00:33:22,786 --> 00:33:24,061
lot of things absolutely.

846
00:33:25,017 --> 00:33:27,901
And were you inspired by any particular other

847
00:33:27,901 --> 00:33:29,495
authors when you wrote the book, Are there

848
00:33:29,495 --> 00:33:31,408
any particular science writers do you think? Well...

849
00:33:31,568 --> 00:33:33,162
Yeah. They they do it really well. Let

850
00:33:33,162 --> 00:33:33,662
me

851
00:33:34,118 --> 00:33:36,605
simulate their style So I'm sure they... I'm

852
00:33:36,605 --> 00:33:39,418
sure there is. I really tried very hard

853
00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:41,790
when... From the moment, I started writing the

854
00:33:41,790 --> 00:33:44,182
book. I tried very hard actually not to

855
00:33:44,182 --> 00:33:45,081
look at other

856
00:33:45,393 --> 00:33:47,302
popular science books because I didn't want to

857
00:33:47,302 --> 00:33:49,233
be get fluent. So I think it is

858
00:33:49,369 --> 00:33:51,460
easy to read something and

859
00:33:51,994 --> 00:33:53,346
and then it goes in your head and

860
00:33:53,346 --> 00:33:55,674
you you may even forget where it came

861
00:33:55,674 --> 00:33:58,307
from, and then be too inspired by that.

862
00:33:58,466 --> 00:34:00,221
So I wanted to make sure that I

863
00:34:00,381 --> 00:34:03,211
I don't... Fall into something where I start

864
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:05,526
explaining things in our way had been explained

865
00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:06,941
in the same way by by someone else.

866
00:34:07,101 --> 00:34:08,618
I wanted things to come to be a

867
00:34:08,618 --> 00:34:09,277
bit more

868
00:34:10,467 --> 00:34:12,530
coming for me from from the outset, and

869
00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:14,037
that required a bit more work, but I

870
00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:15,148
I think it is important.

871
00:34:15,703 --> 00:34:17,845
So now, I I go back in and

872
00:34:17,845 --> 00:34:18,504
read other

873
00:34:19,212 --> 00:34:21,124
very, very nice popular our science book, but

874
00:34:21,602 --> 00:34:23,195
I really tried to make sure I wasn't

875
00:34:23,195 --> 00:34:23,912
doing that

876
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:27,179
before that. And, how what sort of reaction

877
00:34:27,179 --> 00:34:28,708
has there been to the book? So far

878
00:34:28,708 --> 00:34:29,527
have you had

879
00:34:29,984 --> 00:34:31,978
any good reviews, much good publicity.

880
00:34:33,175 --> 00:34:34,929
There's been a lot of engagement. He's been

881
00:34:34,929 --> 00:34:36,844
great. He's been great. I love. I really

882
00:34:36,844 --> 00:34:37,742
love it when

883
00:34:38,855 --> 00:34:41,434
connect with, as I say, with people who

884
00:34:43,574 --> 00:34:45,175
see that how they would fit in,

885
00:34:45,815 --> 00:34:46,454
how this is,

886
00:34:47,108 --> 00:34:50,219
actually, something they can imagine themselves doing or

887
00:34:50,219 --> 00:34:52,532
or just connecting with. This this is great.

888
00:34:53,250 --> 00:34:55,722
I mean, that... It's like everything that some

889
00:34:55,722 --> 00:34:56,222
people

890
00:34:56,695 --> 00:34:57,195
do

891
00:34:57,494 --> 00:34:59,035
appreciate a more personal

892
00:34:59,335 --> 00:35:00,295
aspect of the story.

893
00:35:00,855 --> 00:35:03,015
For some people, they... That's not what they

894
00:35:03,015 --> 00:35:04,615
after, and that's absolutely fine.

895
00:35:05,347 --> 00:35:07,812
The the perspective is different for from everyone.

896
00:35:08,687 --> 00:35:10,994
But I was trying very consciously to do

897
00:35:10,994 --> 00:35:13,953
something which may not be what most of

898
00:35:13,953 --> 00:35:17,324
your popular science books are. And and so

899
00:35:17,383 --> 00:35:18,898
the fact that he connects with some people

900
00:35:18,898 --> 00:35:21,451
in resonates with some people more than with

901
00:35:21,451 --> 00:35:22,966
some others as completely normal.

902
00:35:24,497 --> 00:35:26,013
But but part of it for me was

903
00:35:26,013 --> 00:35:27,391
very important to

904
00:35:28,168 --> 00:35:30,323
connect at a more personal level because we

905
00:35:30,323 --> 00:35:32,811
are a human doing science. And and it

906
00:35:32,811 --> 00:35:35,202
was important to to share this to share

907
00:35:35,202 --> 00:35:35,840
this aspect.

908
00:35:37,355 --> 00:35:39,507
To me, we can't completely separate the 2

909
00:35:39,507 --> 00:35:39,826
of them.

910
00:35:40,635 --> 00:35:42,302
Now while we recording this interview, I can

911
00:35:42,302 --> 00:35:45,000
see behind your a wonderful blackboard filled with

912
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,984
equation. So it's the classic question, you know,

913
00:35:47,143 --> 00:35:48,254
how do you convert those?

914
00:35:49,062 --> 00:35:50,753
Incredible mathematical ideas

915
00:35:51,125 --> 00:35:51,839
into language,

916
00:35:52,791 --> 00:35:55,013
that must be very difficult to do that

917
00:35:55,013 --> 00:35:55,831
without sort of

918
00:35:56,775 --> 00:35:57,965
you know, if you're a reed and you

919
00:35:57,965 --> 00:36:00,348
don't actually work through the calculations, but you

920
00:36:00,348 --> 00:36:01,460
have to sort of take it on trust

921
00:36:01,460 --> 00:36:02,889
and how do you explain that, that must

922
00:36:02,889 --> 00:36:03,921
be quite difficult.

923
00:36:04,494 --> 00:36:06,967
Yes. It's it it's a good question. So

924
00:36:06,967 --> 00:36:08,722
do some level for me,

925
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,797
and I think for for a lot of

926
00:36:10,797 --> 00:36:10,876
us.

927
00:36:11,768 --> 00:36:13,988
The all of those symbols on the board.

928
00:36:14,147 --> 00:36:16,074
This is the language. This this

929
00:36:16,447 --> 00:36:19,301
is straight straight away connected to some concepts.

930
00:36:20,033 --> 00:36:21,548
Without needing to go through words,

931
00:36:22,744 --> 00:36:24,739
going through the words, it is more challenging.

932
00:36:25,217 --> 00:36:26,653
But you learn to do that. I think

933
00:36:26,653 --> 00:36:28,886
as you go through through research, I go

934
00:36:28,886 --> 00:36:30,651
as you go to your your career,

935
00:36:31,287 --> 00:36:33,137
you learn to get intuition

936
00:36:34,385 --> 00:36:37,324
at various level. So there is a math

937
00:36:37,324 --> 00:36:38,692
in a in it through self, and you

938
00:36:38,692 --> 00:36:40,285
need to learn to learn to do it.

939
00:36:40,524 --> 00:36:41,901
You need to learn to

940
00:36:42,914 --> 00:36:43,414
translate

941
00:36:43,791 --> 00:36:45,327
the thoughts into

942
00:36:45,878 --> 00:36:49,467
more rigorous technical ways to express them on

943
00:36:49,467 --> 00:36:51,142
as as it is on on the blackboard.

944
00:36:51,701 --> 00:36:54,035
But after a while, this becomes almost second

945
00:36:54,093 --> 00:36:55,625
nature so that you don't even need to

946
00:36:55,625 --> 00:36:57,625
think about the symbols themselves,

947
00:36:58,105 --> 00:36:58,844
the concepts

948
00:36:59,304 --> 00:37:00,984
and how they fit in together,

949
00:37:01,625 --> 00:37:04,435
become much more natural. If And so a

950
00:37:04,435 --> 00:37:05,233
lot of the time,

951
00:37:06,030 --> 00:37:07,625
we look at the blackboard, but sometimes we

952
00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:09,538
look at the blackboard, and and we talk

953
00:37:09,538 --> 00:37:11,452
with narcotics but this it's not like there's

954
00:37:11,452 --> 00:37:11,952
anything

955
00:37:12,661 --> 00:37:15,044
specific written in the blackboard that that we

956
00:37:15,044 --> 00:37:16,315
connect to. It's more the concepts.

957
00:37:17,268 --> 00:37:17,665
Sometimes,

958
00:37:18,618 --> 00:37:20,389
there was an equation that was there

959
00:37:20,699 --> 00:37:22,693
a months ago, and in the meantime he's

960
00:37:22,693 --> 00:37:23,251
been erased.

961
00:37:24,208 --> 00:37:26,282
But but we still know in a head

962
00:37:26,282 --> 00:37:28,436
where he was and and what he meant

963
00:37:28,436 --> 00:37:30,212
and and how the different characters

964
00:37:30,924 --> 00:37:33,641
played role. It's like a little movie if

965
00:37:33,641 --> 00:37:35,318
if if you want. And so when we

966
00:37:35,318 --> 00:37:37,236
come back in office and we discussed about

967
00:37:37,236 --> 00:37:37,976
those concepts

968
00:37:38,528 --> 00:37:40,199
we we sort of look at the board

969
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:41,949
at the place where that equation is. And

970
00:37:41,949 --> 00:37:43,699
it's no longer there. It's another equation. But

971
00:37:43,699 --> 00:37:46,184
it doesn't matter. It's like you You remember

972
00:37:46,184 --> 00:37:48,025
the story and what he tells and what

973
00:37:48,025 --> 00:37:49,784
he means and and how will connect to

974
00:37:49,784 --> 00:37:50,505
other concepts.

975
00:37:51,545 --> 00:37:54,036
But, obviously, you need to use. Matt, how

976
00:37:54,036 --> 00:37:55,467
good do you need to be at mathematics

977
00:37:55,467 --> 00:37:57,536
to do your job? And how how different

978
00:37:57,536 --> 00:37:59,922
are you to someone who's a pure mathematician?

979
00:38:00,574 --> 00:38:02,403
Do you do you... Obviously, you're using the

980
00:38:02,403 --> 00:38:05,189
same language of mathematics, but you must approach

981
00:38:05,189 --> 00:38:07,815
things differently don't you? Yeah. I think

982
00:38:08,451 --> 00:38:11,730
you're absolutely right then. Setting those were setting

983
00:38:11,730 --> 00:38:15,256
those equations back in words and physical concepts

984
00:38:15,632 --> 00:38:17,862
in what it means practically for the real

985
00:38:17,862 --> 00:38:20,528
world is very important as a physicist.

986
00:38:22,498 --> 00:38:24,250
And for some mathematicians as well. But as

987
00:38:24,250 --> 00:38:26,105
a physicist, that's that's extremely

988
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,050
important. So so

989
00:38:29,124 --> 00:38:32,727
I think possibly as a physicist, the intuition

990
00:38:33,023 --> 00:38:34,398
on how things work

991
00:38:34,773 --> 00:38:37,001
connected to to the real world is then,

992
00:38:38,129 --> 00:38:39,956
more important to to some extent.

993
00:38:41,465 --> 00:38:44,721
Perhaps mathematicians would think that some physicists, including

994
00:38:44,721 --> 00:38:45,833
myself or just me. I don't know.

995
00:38:47,359 --> 00:38:49,357
Can be a bit less rigorous sometimes,

996
00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:53,134
the the rigor is there, but we are

997
00:38:53,593 --> 00:38:54,812
happy to make some

998
00:38:55,191 --> 00:38:57,920
approximation if it's gonna help us move along,

999
00:38:58,399 --> 00:39:01,426
and those approximation are well justified. So some

1000
00:39:01,426 --> 00:39:03,099
of the things and are completely exact,

1001
00:39:03,737 --> 00:39:06,127
but they are good enough to be an

1002
00:39:06,127 --> 00:39:09,353
excellent description and of what we need and

1003
00:39:09,412 --> 00:39:11,427
and for all intents purposes to

1004
00:39:12,602 --> 00:39:14,596
to do what we wanted to do, and

1005
00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:16,351
that will help us build our intuitions.

1006
00:39:16,924 --> 00:39:18,937
Was the... Often the math

1007
00:39:19,313 --> 00:39:21,168
mathematicians, they they're more after some

1008
00:39:21,623 --> 00:39:25,128
more formal, more rigorous, more exact statements. So

1009
00:39:25,128 --> 00:39:27,289
it's it was It's a lot about what

1010
00:39:27,289 --> 00:39:29,455
you want to use those concepts for.

1011
00:39:31,097 --> 00:39:32,842
And coming back to the book. Are you

1012
00:39:32,842 --> 00:39:34,271
are you happy with how it worked out?

1013
00:39:34,762 --> 00:39:36,115
Are you pleased or were you... Or did

1014
00:39:36,115 --> 00:39:37,308
you or did you still want to sort

1015
00:39:37,308 --> 00:39:39,456
of keep refining it? Are you you content

1016
00:39:39,456 --> 00:39:42,018
with it? I gone through it. A hundred

1017
00:39:42,018 --> 00:39:44,173
times, and even now when I go through

1018
00:39:44,173 --> 00:39:46,568
it, I still would like to correct so

1019
00:39:46,568 --> 00:39:47,447
many different things.

1020
00:39:48,565 --> 00:39:50,640
It does it has evolved Think. It has

1021
00:39:51,134 --> 00:39:52,247
it will be no end to it.

1022
00:39:53,202 --> 00:39:54,952
I I've been in the process of of

1023
00:39:54,952 --> 00:39:57,735
translating it in in different languages. And and

1024
00:39:57,735 --> 00:39:59,246
as I translated every time,

1025
00:39:59,818 --> 00:40:01,485
it's like, 0II should I should have done

1026
00:40:01,485 --> 00:40:03,311
this differently. And and so in the French

1027
00:40:03,311 --> 00:40:05,374
version, there's a few things which... Yeah it's

1028
00:40:05,374 --> 00:40:07,200
minor. From a that side perspective will be

1029
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:08,073
minor. But for me,

1030
00:40:09,121 --> 00:40:11,131
the some of the connection Are bit sharper,

1031
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:12,619
and,

1032
00:40:13,731 --> 00:40:15,480
of, of course, with the feedback that I

1033
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,388
do get, I realize are, some of the

1034
00:40:17,388 --> 00:40:19,318
elements are should have done. It's more like

1035
00:40:19,318 --> 00:40:21,316
this. It's it's all bit that that's the

1036
00:40:21,316 --> 00:40:23,234
way it is. It can never it can

1037
00:40:23,234 --> 00:40:24,113
never be perfect.

1038
00:40:25,232 --> 00:40:27,204
But also me as a person changed should

1039
00:40:27,403 --> 00:40:29,155
we all evolve, and so you'll be...

1040
00:40:29,951 --> 00:40:31,383
If if he was up to me, it

1041
00:40:31,383 --> 00:40:34,510
we'll just have continuously evolve. So you're translate

1042
00:40:34,965 --> 00:40:37,010
yourself. You're not getting first party you

1043
00:40:37,845 --> 00:40:38,164
so,

1044
00:40:39,755 --> 00:40:41,984
I had a translated the the someone translating

1045
00:40:41,984 --> 00:40:43,337
in the book, but then as I goes

1046
00:40:43,337 --> 00:40:43,655
through it.

1047
00:40:44,943 --> 00:40:46,296
If if it's sort of a fresh,

1048
00:40:48,841 --> 00:40:51,091
it's hard to resist the temptation

1049
00:40:51,466 --> 00:40:52,594
of adapting,

1050
00:40:53,229 --> 00:40:55,056
is not is not a big things, but

1051
00:40:55,056 --> 00:40:57,860
little things here and there in ways that

1052
00:40:58,472 --> 00:41:00,140
you realize make a bit more sense as

1053
00:41:00,140 --> 00:41:01,331
you go as you go through it.

1054
00:41:02,221 --> 00:41:04,449
So it's being translated into French and which

1055
00:41:04,449 --> 00:41:07,255
other languages? Yeah. Into French, German,

1056
00:41:08,918 --> 00:41:11,246
currently been translated in Japanese,

1057
00:41:12,097 --> 00:41:12,597
Chinese,

1058
00:41:13,210 --> 00:41:14,505
Greek, Romania.

1059
00:41:15,993 --> 00:41:17,920
Yeah. It's And do they all manage to

1060
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,393
get that joke about from the title in

1061
00:41:20,393 --> 00:41:22,945
those languages cannot be? As far as I

1062
00:41:22,945 --> 00:41:25,019
can see, Yes. Yeah. The french 1 was

1063
00:41:25,019 --> 00:41:27,109
it wasn't bit tricky. I have me. But

1064
00:41:27,189 --> 00:41:28,707
I think we're... I think we got to

1065
00:41:28,707 --> 00:41:30,704
it. It it it's it's fine. Yeah.

1066
00:41:31,663 --> 00:41:33,980
Yeah. In some languages is easier than others.

1067
00:41:34,140 --> 00:41:36,067
Yeah. Tell Okay. Well, best of let me

1068
00:41:36,067 --> 00:41:37,820
the book and thanks for talking to us

1069
00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:39,253
about it. Nice to see. Thank you very

1070
00:41:39,253 --> 00:41:40,607
much. Thanks A. Thanks.

1071
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:50,130
The beauty of falling has been reviewed by

1072
00:41:50,210 --> 00:41:51,969
Physics world's Kate Gardner.

1073
00:41:52,625 --> 00:41:53,684
Look for the headline

1074
00:41:53,984 --> 00:41:57,984
how gravity falls down on falling down on

1075
00:41:57,984 --> 00:42:00,304
our website to find Kate's review.

1076
00:42:01,357 --> 00:42:03,023
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

1077
00:42:03,023 --> 00:42:05,719
for this week's podcast, which is supported by

1078
00:42:05,798 --> 00:42:06,591
F vacuum.

1079
00:42:07,225 --> 00:42:08,732
Thanks to Derek Sutherland.

1080
00:42:09,383 --> 00:42:09,702
Claudia

1081
00:42:10,578 --> 00:42:11,237
And Mat

1082
00:42:11,694 --> 00:42:14,642
for joining me today. And a special thanks

1083
00:42:14,642 --> 00:42:16,236
to our producer Fred Isles.

1084
00:42:17,048 --> 00:42:19,359
We'll be back again next week when we'll

1085
00:42:19,359 --> 00:42:20,896
learn about the challenges

1086
00:42:21,272 --> 00:42:22,171
of marketing

1087
00:42:22,627 --> 00:42:24,380
nascent quantum computers.

1088
00:42:25,033 --> 00:42:27,206
And chat about the undergraduate

1089
00:42:27,582 --> 00:42:28,082
physics

1090
00:42:28,618 --> 00:42:29,653
student experience.

1091
00:42:30,530 --> 00:42:33,181
In the meantime, do check out the latest

1092
00:42:33,318 --> 00:42:36,588
feature article on the Physics World website, in

1093
00:42:36,588 --> 00:42:38,096
which James Gill,

1094
00:42:38,651 --> 00:42:41,864
former public relations guru at Cern

1095
00:42:42,244 --> 00:42:45,785
looks back on an eventful career that included

1096
00:42:46,164 --> 00:42:47,625
end of the world lawsuits,

1097
00:42:48,324 --> 00:42:50,195
brushes with Hollywood royalty

1098
00:42:50,649 --> 00:42:53,034
and the discovery of the God particle.

1099
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:56,373
James article is on the Physics World website.

1100
00:42:56,929 --> 00:42:58,202
Just look for the headline,

1101
00:42:59,013 --> 00:42:59,890
Angels and demons,

1102
00:43:00,448 --> 00:43:04,434
Tom Hanks, and Peter Higgs, how Cern sold

1103
00:43:04,434 --> 00:43:05,869
its story to the world.

1104
00:43:14,084 --> 00:43:17,154
Thanks again to F vacuum for supporting this

1105
00:43:17,214 --> 00:43:18,255
episode of the podcast.

1106
00:43:18,894 --> 00:43:20,914
F vacuum has been a globally

1107
00:43:21,214 --> 00:43:21,714
established

1108
00:43:22,014 --> 00:43:25,876
and highly competent partner, for nuclear fusion systems

1109
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:27,280
for many years.

1110
00:43:27,915 --> 00:43:30,874
The company provides all types of vacuum equipment

1111
00:43:31,344 --> 00:43:33,282
including hybrid and magnetic

1112
00:43:33,661 --> 00:43:35,099
levi turbo pumps,

1113
00:43:35,738 --> 00:43:38,375
leak detectors and analysis equipment,

1114
00:43:38,869 --> 00:43:41,347
as well as vacuum chambers and systems.

1115
00:43:41,986 --> 00:43:44,543
You can explore all of its products at

1116
00:43:44,543 --> 00:43:46,242
f dash vacuum

1117
00:43:46,621 --> 00:43:47,180
dot com.