Theravāda Tag Team: No Self Left Standing! | Doug Smith & Jon Aaron Roundtable

[music]
Welcome everyone to a co- Clear Mountain
Monastery interview and a dig in the
Dharma interview. Um, I'm Ajan Kilo and
this is Ajan Nisbo. And we've got John
Aaron and Doug Smith of Digging the
Dharma and Doug's Dharma. And uh, we're
just here today to have a nice
conversation. We'll maybe touch on
topics of secular versus traditional
Buddhism and if there is a line between
those, what that might be, um, and other
kind of mutually interesting topics. But
>> rebirth, davas, all the good stuff.
[laughter]
>> Let's go for it.
>> All right. Let's let's start off with
just uh each of us introducing ourselves
uh and maybe how we're coming to this
this conversation. Maybe Doug, would you
want to start off?
>> Sure. Um well, I you know, I found the
dharma when I was much younger, actually
really back in high school. Um and it's
a long story. I won't get into all of it
here, but uh eventually I went for a PhD
in philosophy uh to Wisconsin Madison, a
little bit north of where John is right
now. Um and did a minor in South Asian
studies with some Buddhism studies in
there. Um
and that time doing
uh real I would say
academic philosophy when I was an
undergrad and a graduate student really
sort of uh was my background for
everything really um because it taught
me how to you know think philosophically
but I was always interested in the
dharma on the side
uh And
I gave it up for a while because, you
know, I've been so influenced by, you
know, just sort of western contemporary
philosophy, which I still love. Um but
more recently have realized the
importance of the dharma as
a sort of active philosophy of a a
philosophy that gives you
um gives a practice gives a direction
gives um a path
and uh that that I think meant a whole
lot to me. And
then more recently, I met John Aaron in
New York at New York Insight several
years ago. And uh John was great, a
great teacher of mine. Um and taught me
how to be a lot more uh relaxed around
views and opinions, which which was
which is a very important teaching for
me and it remains a very important
teaching for me. Um and so I and anyway
I started my I was doing some writing
online Buddhist writing for a secular
Buddhist group uh as sort of doing blogs
and so on and decided to start my
YouTube channel just as a whim because I
thought it would hit better if it was
you know coming from a voice and a face
rather than just written words. Um and
fortunately it worked and so here I am.
[laughter]
>> [clears throat]
>> Doug, you said several years ago. I hate
to tell you, it's more like 15 years
ago. [laughter]
>> It It feels like yesterday, right?
>> So,
>> Doug's in the da realm. It kind of just
dilates down.
>> There a lot of talk about time. It's
like, what is time anyway? Uh, so
I came much later to my well I'm older
than Doug so I don't know how much later
I came but but um I didn't really
discovered the dharma until
I was in my late 40s in the 90s and uh
[clears throat] came to it after a lot
of sort of upheaval other upheaval in my
life and uh
I think you know and somebody introduced
me to ticklan's work miracle of
mindfulness and somehow I fell onto
Steven Bachelor's Buddhism without
beliefs which was really helpful and
transformative actually it was at that
moment that I realized this this was
really resonating and um you know I just
started going on retreats in the late
90s early as and uh a few years later
fell upon a teacher um
[clears throat and cough]
I was I was I started getting involved
with New York Insight
I had
I was in a whole different world. I was
in the music business for many many
years. Um,
but I I came up I was involved with New
York insight as a volunteer and
[clears throat] practice leader and then
ended up managing a retreat for a
teacher named Matthew Flickstein
who was a major student of
Batikunaratanes.
So he came from a very
traditional Terraata training himself,
you know, working helped Bonte raise all
the money for his monastery and traveled
around the country with him and I know
still I haven't talked to Matt for a
while but they they get together once or
twice a year and just go on a trip
together even though Bont is almost a
hundred now. Um but uh so that was
really transformative to me because Matt
had a very specific way of working with
students and it was a I think a seven or
eight year relationship as a student
teacher relationship where we would go
through you know the significant
teachings over the course of a year uh
and you know give given different
practices on a weekly basis and it was
really quite quite something. In the
middle of all that, uh, somehow I found
myself in a teacher role at New York
Insight, but also at the Jewish
Community Center where they had just
built a new building on the Upper West
Side of New York. And and uh they had a
purpose-built meditation space and
funding to pay teachers a little bit of
money to have a so they could have a
meditation twice a day. And um
and then a colleague said, "You I should
really do the training for
mindfulness-based stress reduction,
[clears throat]
which oddly I didn't know anything about
um at the time. I mean, I knew the name
John Kavatin, but I didn't know him. I
didn't know his book.
did the training
uh
and um went up to Massachusetts once a
week for nine weeks and and sort of did
the first level of training and then
soon as I started teaching that and for
those of you listening that don't know
that curriculum it's a
it was developed in the late 80s
sorry the late 70s um mainly in aos it
was developed in a hospital setting um
primarily for people with chronic pain
but since then and it's like evolved it
basically people take it for all sorts
of reasons.
Some some just because of the nature of
life. Uh others
um
for very specific physical reasons or or
mental depression and things like that.
Anyway, what was interesting is I was
doing that training because at the same
time I was in the middle of studying the
sadana suta in great detail with with my
teacher and you know I'm listening to
the this I'm going through this training
I'm thinking well this is just that
basically with new language you know and
and you know as I I've now gotten to
know John fairly well John Kevitzin and
and you know we talk he lives in the
same town where my sister does in
Massachusetts so we generally will when
when I'm there, we'll go out for a walk
and just talk dharma the whole time. And
um so that line that we're, you know,
sort of veering into around sacred
secular
um to me is a very thin line. Um if if
it's there at all. Uh, in any event, I
partly through my work with Matt, but
also just meeting other teachers,
particularly as we were talking about
earlier, Kisaro and Tenisera.
My sort of I'm I'm
while I'm rooted in these early
teachings, I'm really fascinated by the
some of the Chan teachings and Zen
teachings, and it just I integrate them
whenever I can because I find them so
Uh
there's just something about them that
that uh
some of them are just, you know, more
colorful, some of them are just the
well, yeah, the imagery is important and
and to say nothing about the whole
bodhic safa ideal, which you know, I
think we're all bodhic safas in our way,
but but the the way it's highlighted um
to me is quite significant and has had a
pretty big impact. Um, so yeah, so I'm
here now in Chicago. We still have our
daily online group which has been going
since co and I've started a group here.
I'm part of the spiritual life office
here which allows me to do other things
and uh mainly it gives me a nice ID so I
can get into the various events here.
Um, [laughter] it's yeah, it's been it's
been a nice change actually from living
in New York. So anyway, happy to get to
know you guys and and uh let's see where
this goes.
>> Yeah, you you as well. And I think we
will probably maybe co-release this on
each of our podcasts and would recommend
uh Dig in the Dharma and Doug's Dharma.
Uh for people who don't yet know those
those are both YouTube channels and at
least for Dig in the Dharma, it's a
podcast. Um but I'll just introduce
myself. Um I'm as I said Ajam Kovilo and
uh something which I think all of us
have in common is that we're all convert
Buddhists or converts to the dharma.
We're all none of us were born in a a
Buddhist country or into Buddhist
families. Um but it's interesting the
different threads into which we come
into this uh convert dharma convert
Buddhist scene is for Doug it's you know
through an intellectual or scholarly b
through through reading and then uh for
John um yeah just practice bant or the
mindfulness-based stress reduction for
myself my first introduction was the
gawena retreats which it is for many
people and another shared thread is this
the emphasis on pragmatic Buddhism
though you know not All intellectual or
scholastic Buddhism is pragmatic or
practiceoriented.
Doug is also interested in in the the
practice of it. And for me that was
really foundational from the beginning
and felt very fortunate. Went very deep
into the Golinka tradition very fast. Um
started sitting although I'd done
nothing religious uh before one of those
retreats. I was raised unarian but
whether or not you can call that a
religion is [laughter]
depends on who you ask. um unitarians
might not even uh admit that but um yeah
afterwards sitting religiously an hour
in the morning an hour in the evening
and trying to keep the five precepts
which is something I'd never heard of
before and eventually was I feel
grateful and uh that my life did lead me
more towards the monastery and towards
renunciation and first entered a
monastery in 2006 and have been living
at monasteries pretty much ever since
then and Aenispo and I are currently
involved with setting up Clear Mountain
Monastery in Seattle and it's really a
beautiful life. I feel like um monastic
life which we lead a life based on you
know very clear set of rules and uh you
outward signs of renunciation really can
be um uh co-emergent with a really uh
strong sense of inner well-being. So
that's kind of what what our practices
are based in and um it's working for us
and I think we both want to be monks for
the rest of our life and um and yeah
it's great to be able to to talk dharma
and interview and speak with other other
teachers. We're also multi-influenced
all of us um both terraat and and other
teachings and uh so yeah pass it over to
you John.
>> That was great. Um yeah good to meet you
both. I mean Doug we've talked to you
before and watch your videos and John's
space to meditate which is one of your
kind of online forums you hold where
everyone gathers and meditates together.
Ajin Kovaleo does something very similar
and it's just you know we live in a
strange realm of zoom and s sanctity
mixed together in a
>> a cloth that I I think is overall quite
beautiful. Um so you know and and I grew
up in Spokane um ordained discovered the
dharma etc. But, you know, just to zoom
in on on the moment now with us because
I think it's relevant to the
conversation is we landed in Seattle,
you know, from the forest of Thailand
four years ago. It's the most secular
city in the US and you know, we really
actually expected um you look across the
landscape of the US right now and you
know, you have more secularcoded
meditation groups that generally are
baby boomers and up. I I think you know
it's an older crowd and that's fine and
it's great but we didn't know how these
robes would land and and all that the
tradition the autoutramal um coming into
Seattle and and what's been so
interesting is like there's been a huge
number of young people involved and so
it it it strikes me that there is some
interesting
line that that all of us touch you know
uh Doug I know that you're you know with
uh what's the organization at secular or
um
>> the secular Buddhist association.
>> Yeah, secular Buddhist association. But
you have such a profound respect for the
texts and and all this and obviously
those aren't mutually exclusive. And
even, you know, I'm actually in
agreement. We were talking before this
conversation about the line between
secular and sacred is that might not be
the right distinction. It might be more
secular and traditional that we have to
sort of speak to. Um who knows? But um
there is something interesting there to
to sort of talk about. Um so maybe like
a good entry point would be either
talking about what each of those terms
mean to us or we could drill into one
specific instance and just talk about
how we've approached the teaching on on
rebirth or something like that. um what
do you all think would be the right way
to to begin the conversation both
>> we'll get into specifics but I think I
think
>> awesome
>> line I should say also that I forgot to
say that one of the young people that I
met here is not a student here but he
was uh he when I was talking about this
podcast coming up uh in Clear Mountain
he said oh yeah I was in Seattle a
number of years ago and I met I I I
somebody was one of the monks was out
doing a hams
and I shook his hand and I wanted to hug
him until I realized
it was the first time he had had a
contact with with a monastic. And then
he went to Thailand and sat for a month
at one of the the the centers there. Um
and it was like that was just a funny it
was it was Ajan Kavala you know he met
he met you and
>> he wanted to hug you. It's like,
you know, and that's that's a really
interesting fact there. I um
this Yeah, this secular um
>> Well, I don't know, Doug, you should
define what it means to be a [laughter]
secular Buddhist. Sorry.
>> Yeah. I mean, John, you don't consider
yourself secular Buddhist anyway. I
mean, I I want to We should get that out
of the way first. Is that
>> I'm the only one here who, you know,
would define myself that way.
>> It's a label. It's a label and it's the
only reason to use it is just because it
it it describes something. Um, which is,
you know, I mean there I don't want to
give a huge def, you know, a very
specific definition for something as
amorphous as secular Buddhism because it
means something different to everybody.
Um, uh, most a lot of people are really
turned off by the word secular. Um,
that's one of the reasons why, you know,
originally my YouTube channel was Doug's
secular dharma. And, uh, I realized that
that was both confusing people and
turning people off and people were
commenting on it and getting confused by
it and saying a whole bunch of things
that weren't I didn't think true. So, I
just took that out. Um,
but to me, it just means a this life
practice. um and uh leaving aside as
speculative questions of future
lifetimes if there are any then there
will be and if there aren't then you
know we're practicing now anyway um
uh that's kind of how I see it sort of
the the the supernatural
as you were saying of of of
uh of of Buddhism I find um interesting
uh certainly from a scholy perspective
it's interesting it doesn't hit me
personally um from my background in a
very secular family um from my
background in very secular philosophical
pursuits
uh you know I'm just not you know I'm in
a different place um which doesn't mean
that I can't sit with other people who
are in their place I mean I you know I
can go to a traditional you know sit as
long as I feel that I'm welcome you know
that's the thing is that I mean because
sometimes with some teachers
who I will not name. Um I don't feel
welcome because they they teach in a
sort of anti-sear way that's sort of
specifically excluding
and and that's I mean that's fine for
them. Look, I'm not going to say that
they're doing anything wrong. I mean
they're doing it the way they want. Um
there are also secular people doing the
same thing saying, you know, I don't
want to you know I don't want to be
associated with anybody who's religious,
you know. Um and I guess to each their
own, you know, I mean I think practice
is very much a personal thing and you
know each of us needs our own our own
our own direction. Uh I should say each
of us has a direction that fits with us
and that resonates and that we can feel
seen and heard and feel comfortable in.
And it's going to be different for
different people. And so, um, I guess
that's
if I'm thinking of the word secular, I'm
thinking of my own take on it. That's
why I called it Doug's Dharma. It's my
own take on sort of the way things, you
know. Um, but uh, but yeah, I guess
that's a that's a short introduction to
what I think secular might be.
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah, thank you, Doug. And I I really
appreciate that and um your definition
of secular and I think we do refer
people to you. um you know you're the
way you speak about Buddhism is very
nuanced and very good faith. You're not
trying to take your own beliefs as you
say it's Doug's Dharma and say this is
Buddhism but say this is one approach to
Buddhism and um I you do it very well
and you and I both you attend more than
I do but the Bikub's classes um reading
the poly and the original which is quite
useful and specific. So maybe just to
define traditional Buddhism, uh we've
got uh some people would draw a
distinction actually between Terravada
and EBT or early Buddhist texts. Ponte
Sugato has a great
>> um call it checklist. Um, and I think
Doug, you've done a whole video
comparing early Buddhist texts, which
are a subset of the full polycanon
versus terraada, which is very much
influenced by a later strata of texts
and by by commentaries and there are
distinct differences in the the flavors
of those and Ajan Niso and I both
although we very much, you know, don't
problematize the word terra, we, you
know, tell people we're terra monks and
uh we do uh very much uh The teachings
of that Bontes Sugata pulls out from
that early Buddhist strata are the ones
we feel closest to and honestly easiest
to ac access from um from a modern mind.
There's a lot which is has been added in
successive generations and uh millennia
centuries which are actually a little
bit more complex than we're you know
ready to to swallow. Um but but yeah, we
do appreciate that and there are these
distinctions like I I like that you uh
foreground a this life perspective on as
being the focus of secular
[clears throat] of secular Buddhism
>> and I think for us I mean Najinis and I
we weren't you were sort of born in a
Buddhist family but um uh I certainly
wasn't and so wasn't raised with any
kind of belief you know unitarian
atheist family wasn't raised with
beliefs in an afterlife or multiple
lives. Ssara um but I do find it and it
is in the early teachings. It is the
Buddha did talking about it in the poly
canon and I do find it fascinating and
actually I'm for whatever reason willing
to take this rebirth uh postulation as a
working hypothesis and actually a useful
one. Um, so I think this we might at
some point talk about the utility or
pragmatic Buddhism um as how that uh
affects things and um yeah I don't know
if you wanted to add anything to that.
>> Yeah just we're experimenting with
numerous cameras. [laughter]
Um, no I think what Ajin Kova said is
great and you know it strikes me that
there's [clears throat] two two levels
of right view which you both I'm sure
you know realize as well like there's
super mundane right view which is the
four noble truths and then mundane right
view which is this tenfold list of like
there is the fruits and results of good
and bad action there is this world and
the other world there is spontaneously
reborn beings there are you know there's
nana basically as well and um
you know For me what what secular and
sacred implies like one etmology of
sacred implies is setting apart and for
me this touches the limits of western
psychology which often will trace back a
sankara or storyline to someone's
history and there's a real limit there
because you can only do that so often
before it becomes a path of diminishing
returns
>> and for me like the sacred is this
acknowledgement in in in Buddhist
practice like that the heart can achieve
leave something apart from greed,
hatred, and delusion truly and and and
step outside of all those story lines
somehow and and for me that's associated
with the four noble truths. And it's
it's a it's available to any
practitioner really whether or not you
take on all these other beliefs as well.
um or at least you know to some extent
um where he's the so I I consider
secular and sacred to be available to
all of us where he's with traditional um
or or ones that might involve the
mundane right view of like different
realms it's like the context and for me
um why that's interesting it it does
provide context and interesting you know
ways to talk about the dharma but what's
beautiful is because of chaotic you know
in Buddhism karma is and how conditions
manifest as a chaotic system and one
feature of chaos theory is scale and
variance. So any pattern that repeats on
a small level repeats on every scale of
of you know every vista you could go to.
So you know whenever we talk about davas
yeah you can talk about the existence of
such beings but also just what does it
feel like to be in a dva mind state and
ajin such said you know we in the west
have psychology and the Buddha had
cosmology you know and he did
acknowledge these things as well but so
for me there is interesting like I think
secular Buddhists can touch the sacred
too I think that for me is associated
with the fornoble transcendent noble
truths whereas traditional touches this
this other realm of mundane right view a
little so just drawing that out.
>> Yeah, absolutely. No, I was going to
Yeah, I was definitely going to go there
as well that um for me the um mundane
right view involves things like rebirth
and so on. Um super mundane at least
what what my way of coming to [snorts]
the super mundane right view is to say
that it involves
uh
letting go of all views. I mean of not
clinging to views uh of not identifying
with views
and that is all views
you know um including it's I mean it's
it's a kind of a it it does get you into
a different kind of a more um
paradoxical mindset and I think that to
me is an example of what you might be
what you might call the sacred
Um and
I think that view that see it's also a
view right that that interpretation of
of
a mundane or I should say super super
mundane right view is one that
can be had by both people from a secular
or non-seular mindset because at the at
the end of the day whether you know sec
the distinction between secular and
non-secular is just a distinction in
views.
>> Um but the important thing is not the
views that you hold so much as the way
you hold them in Buddhism. I mean that's
the way I understand it. I mean the
practice is to to teach you how to hold
views properly. Um
and that is much more important than the
exa than the character of the views. So,
I mean, so long as you're the character
of your views are not causing you to,
you know, go out and kill people and
cause suffering and harm, you know,
willy-nilly. I mean,
>> so long as you're behaving in a in a in
a kind and compassionate way. Um,
otherwise, you know, the character of
your views of of relatively little
little importance, I think. So yeah, I
think what's really interesting and and
the teaching I do so so another way of
you know being with it is you know the
thing about say teaching mindfulness
based stress reduction is it's it's
taught generally speaking in secular
settings whether it's a hospital or a
therapy center or you know I mean I did
teach it at New York Insight but it was
still this sort of
uh you know it it is a secular
secularly languaged teaching. Um, and
people,
some people who teach it are coming from
a psychological place, from a
psychotherrapeutic place. Some people
who teach it are coming from a dharma
place. And we teach it very differently.
But what's interesting is the people
that come to a course
um, for instance, I mean, I've had
people in classes who have far more
meditation experience than I did. I
mean, they've been practicing in the Zen
tradition for 30 years before they took
an MBSR class, but they never figured
out how to integrate one with the other,
you know, the practice with their life.
Um, I have other people who, you know,
are starting from zero in terms of
meditation experience and after week
one, they've suddenly, you know,
recognize the the nature of non-duality,
which doesn't even, you know,
specifically come up in a MBSR class. I
mean it's it's underneath it all but
it's not you know and
and for me you know once I kind of and I
think that the the difference for me is
that just going back to that paradox
um is accepting the paradox and and and
[clears throat]
having some faith and I think that that
quality of faith is an important one
here that um
my life is going to unfold in a
particular way and
certain aspects of it I have control
over certain aspects I don't
but I have faith that everything will be
okay in a sense you know that it's
whatever happens is going to be okay I
have faith that when
um I'm practicing loving kindness
practice in this notion of radiating
loving kindness, I have faith that it's
landing somewhere. Um, and that that
level of faith
um
has made a big difference for me, you
know, because it's like, oh yeah, it's
like the world is sucks right now in
many ways and there's this
um and I was
um it's interesting. I was reading this
morning a poem to our saga that ended
with the line and I forget where it was
from what was referred to I guess the
writer Ruskin I don't even know
>> oh John Ruskin yeah
>> John Ruskin who said something about the
courage to be happy
and it created a whole interesting
discussion or or sharing with of people
like how how that phrase just really hit
a lot of people and for me and then I
had to talk think about it myself and it
was like in a sense It's that quality of
sati mindfulness that reminds me to look
at those things in life which make me
happy or which bring happiness you know
that's here already you what's been
obstructing it and what what do I need
to shift to just sort of wake up to that
>> and these momentto- moment awakenings
you know are are what give me faith
and secular or spiritual it's like
they're sacred everything is sacred in
this sense, you know. So,
uh
once once I I sort of uh open up to that
or once I opened up to that, something
shifted. Um and of course, you know, we
go back to our old ways all the time.
And uh you were talking about the
habitual patterns of the mind and and
you know when I introduce mindfulness in
the first class of an MBSR class it's
like yeah you're going to start looking
at your habits you know and those habits
of mind and then and then you know
someone will bring up something in a
class the way they sort of dealt with
particular meditation
and I'll say yeah uh where else in your
life do you notice that you know and
it's like
>> oh Yeah, [laughter] it's like it's like
this lightning bolt and then it's like
right and and some of those things, you
know, we just have to see to change and
we you know, we tend to go through life
assuming that we are who we are [snorts]
and uh to one degree that's true, but
then there's everything else. Um so uh
and you know looking at our notes here
about uh rebirth
um
in this I I've been doing a lot of sort
of thinking about courage and and
looking back at some of the jotaka tales
and you know where the Buddha is does
various takes various uh
uh
he's he's speak you know various animals
and things and and always showing a
certain level of courage and compassion
[snorts] and uh it's like yeah uh
I don't know if there's rebirth or not
but I I can live like there is and
that's the important thing how is it
different than living however you know
it's like is it different than this
notion of heaven
>> right
uh and that's an interesting question
there as well um
>> yeah I mean one of the things that
struck me also about about um the
courses over at the New York Insight
when I was there with you, John, um was
that we would have a very ecumenical
audience, you know, at times a lot of
Christians, a lot of Jewish people, I
mean, who were practicing in their own
religion and this openness that this is
also what I consider part of being
secular is this openness
uh uh to people from different
traditions who might be able to benefit
from the dharma. um and not trying to
say, "Okay, we are this religion and you
are that religion." And so, you know, if
you want to enter this door, you've got
to let go of those beliefs and and take
on these beliefs.
>> Um and that to me is was great. That was
one of the reasons why I when I first
got to New York, I was like, I feel I
feel at home here.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Very very much. And that was
my experience as well with the Gwinker
traits. Like I didn't even know he was
teaching Buddhism, you know, for about a
year. And I wouldn't have wanted it
actually, you know, I wasn't looking for
a religion and there was something
appealing about the ecumenical way that
that was taught and Doug you bringing up
yet it is uh actually framed as a
defilement or a hindrance of mind to
attach to views and relinquish them with
difficulty. Um and I think to your point
John there is um there's a suta called
uh the well taught. the well taught. And
here the Buddha says that uh a teaching
is not well taught if you talk about
faith to somebody who doesn't have faith
or you talk about generosity to somebody
who's stingy or you talk about uh wisdom
to somebody who's not uh not yet wise.
Um,
>> and I think that's really important to
be uh sensitive and have some just
metacognition about who your audience
is, who you're talking to, what the
effect will be because that's really one
of the supreme skills of the Buddha is
that he could know who his his audience
was and not trying to push something
which someone is not ready for, which is
just not the right teaching for the
moment. Um John you bring up faith this
word sadha in Buddhism which literally
means da like the dharma the root means
to place in sud s sad uh means the heart
so it's literally the placing of the
heart and all of us are doing this sadi
this placing of the heart on different
things like that Bob Dylan song you know
you got to serve somebody whether it may
be the devil or be the lord you know you
got to serve somebody and um we do we
are operating from these uh conscious or
unconscious uh beliefs and and faiths
and things. And so I think there's a
number of ways that we could take this
discussion. One interesting thing which
we've kind of been uh touching on is a
distinction which Rick Hansen makes in
his book Neurodharma and we spoke with
him about this in his our interview with
him and subsequently and just
conversations but the distinction
between supernatural beliefs and
transcendent beliefs.
>> So this isn't a clear line is not drawn
in the earliest sutas this definition of
mundane right view. You've got, you
know, there are beings who've achieved
and seen uh this world and the next
world. Those who've achieved nibbana
that's transcendence. It is possible to
transcend uh greed, anger, and delusion.
It is possible to transcend dooka, to
not mentally suffer with the inevitable
pains of having a physical body. Um but
then there's the supernatural beliefs
which are the other part of mundane
right view which says there's this
world, there's the next world, there are
spontaneously risen beings. And I
thought that was quite a useful uh
distinction because it's easier for
people who can't make that automatic
jump or you it's interest faith is
interesting because you can't force
yourself
>> right
>> to believe something you have the causes
and conditions if they're not there
they're not there but believing that
it's possible to transcend greed and
anger. We've all given up some degree of
uh unhealthy unskillful speech some
degree of anger. We've given up bad
habits given up our drinking and our
smoking or whatever it is. So we see
that there is a spectrum of skill in a
life and to intuit it or to guess
speculate hypothesize maybe it is
possible to totally transcend greed and
anger and to give up mental suffering.
Oh maybe that's possible. It seems a
easier jump than to say there are all
these other realms which we can't
actually see. Ajan if you wanted to take
that thread or another thread that
conversation
>> that was great. Yeah, the trans the dist
distinction between transcendent and
what was the other one? Supernatural.
>> Supernatural. Although from the Buddhist
perspective, I guess, or the traditional
one, you'd say it's all natural. Um, but
but I think that's really good and it
speaks to what I I was sort of searing
in on here as well where when we say
like what's sacred. Um, when I talk like
think about meeting someone I consider
sacred, usually it's them embodying the
Brahma viharas
>> like love. Like if I meet someone like
that, I really think, "Oh, this person's
kind of sacred." And it it resonates,
you know, I mean, in in Buddhist
cosmology, the Brahas are associated
with vagas and also, you know, these
aspects of loving kindness and and
that's sacred. Um and maybe why that's
so significant here with the
transcendent thing that Ajin Kovila was
mentioning and and John you motion
towards with dissolution of patterning
is um
like the limit of western psychology
feels like you you step away from these
patterns but because there's nowhere to
step onto
you can only step so far and you just
end up kind of dancing a little bit. um
you know where he's like one of the be
beautiful things about the Brahma
viharas is like they they illuminate the
chitta and some part of the human heart
which is somehow beyond those patterns
and when you have both of those
ingredients in the mix like the letting
go of view and pattern and also stepping
into some very deep resonance which
which is transcendent um and which is
kind of illuminated by um developing the
Brahma viharas
that allows someone to transform in a
way that is is very powerful and potent
and
>> and these technologies of the heart like
faith and ritual and devotion there is a
place where those become you know
there's a substrate of this this the
psyche which speaks in union terms of
embodiment and ritual and story and like
those technologies which are traditional
um I think can invoke that brahmathihara
place a bit as well
>> and the final thing like there's so many
fun threads here but is, you know, I
love Doug your definition of like uh
secular just means it's a it's a big
tent, you know, anyone's welcome. And
there's an interesting phenomena where
like on the surface we seem very
non-secular as monks dressed up in
robes. Um but what I've seen is like
with a technique like Goinka because the
identity is predicated on technique,
it's very strict in technique. You can't
practice a different technique at going.
And in fact, if you do practice a
different technique in the interim, you
can't go to a longer retreat. Whereas
because the identity of a tradition is
held together by ritual, by gravitas, by
lineage, you know, you have monks
practicing all sorts of things. There's
very little, you know, and and so
there's an interesting thing there where
like on one level it's not always as
simple as like what looks like a
nonseular,
you know, that code of broad big tent is
an interesting thing to look at as well.
And I think you do have to navigate like
which aspects of that you speak to with
people. So opening that up to all of
you.
>> I just one thing um and I think the
Buddha would the Buddha was this way
too. I really appreciate what you were
saying about the the suta you were
referring to about when to teach what to
who. Right.
For me there's also the faith there's a
faith that there's that that everyone is
sacred every being is sacred right and
that every being has the seed of
awakening. I mean we all have that
potential whether it comes in this
lifetime or some other lifetime or or
this moment or some other moment. And
[clears throat] I I think what was
interesting is a kind of interesting
realization
that that nobody that didn't come from a
teacher was the third noble truth. You
know there is freedom. It's like
when I first read that I was like oh
that means like complete freedom. You
know that that would be nana. Yeah there
is that. But we have
we have freedom in every moment of
meditation. the potential for that
freedom in every moment of meditation.
Recognizing those moments in meditation,
whether it's how whatever tradition
you're meditating in, um there is that
moment where you realize, oh,
yeah, the mind isn't reaching out for
anything. It's just here. And that's the
third noble truth, right? That's the
moment where you realize that the
potential is there more and more and
that it adds up. Um, and it took me a
long time to get to that place. And then
once I was in that place, it was like,
"All right, okay. So this is where uh
this is where the relief from stress or
the release from suffering or the
release from pain, you know, whatever it
is, that's the moment that people have
to look at and and that everybody has
that potential. And so the the
sacredness of every being and the
potential that every being holds
um is is is I think a place a
[clears throat] place where that
that's an important that's an important
perspective to have for me. It's an
important place to hold. I had somebody
in a class, an MBSR class, who just
loathed anything that that uh smelled of
spirituality or sacredness. It's like I
you know there was in one of the dayongs
my colleague read a poem that had
something about the burning bush you
know and it was like that was too much
for him. it just [snorts] turned him off
completely and it was like whoa okay you
know you can't but but you know I sort
of held out hope for this guy and um
I don't know what happened but
[laughter]
but something something
>> secret one way the other
>> yeah exactly and exactly yeah and it was
like I loved the guy I mean it was just
because he was so honest about it all
but it was just amazing to sort of see
that sort of reactivity
um and you know that's just where people
are at any given time. And and how do
you how do you hold that? And [snorts]
um and I also think that um and I love
the the teachings where [clears throat]
there's this notion that I we have to
remember there's a backstory to
everybody. We we don't know it unless
we're a Buddha. We don't really know the
backstory, but everybody has a backstory
and that's what they're bringing to us
in the moment.
um or they're bringing to their practice
in the moment. And of course I don't
think uh
many people when they're especially when
they come to meditation they're not even
thinking about their backstory until it
comes up in the meditation and then it's
like you know um
and I appreciate what you're saying
about the Ganka retreats because
we were in India earlier this year and I
I wanted to meet some I wanted to know
what the sort
uh
whether there was any MBSR in India and
people said no it's mostly the Gowanka
tradition I mean it was like that that
was sort of the sort of role that it
plays in India now um which is really
interesting um and uh
we could get into a whole discussion
about that I just you know but it's
obviously you guys would not be welcome
right now at a like a retreat but uh
>> well we'll see I I actually just applied
for a Goinka retreat. I haven't done one
in 20 years, but um I'm waiting. I sent
in my application two weeks ago and
still haven't heard back. [laughter]
>> So, you told the truth and everything.
>> I told the truth. I did. I did. Yeah.
>> Doug, any any thoughts?
>> Um well, a lot of thoughts. Um
yeah. Uh where should I start? Um I mean
one of the things about about when I
think of western sort of western
contemporary psychology or making the
distinction between psychology and and
um spiritual practice I guess is that um
to me at least psychology in the west at
least in in this context that we're
talking about it right now
is one that is
I think um aimed at dealing with various
forms of mental illness.
Um, and of course it's not perfect by
any means, but it can do a lot of good.
I've talked about this with John
sometimes um as well on our podcast that
uh sometimes it really does help to go
back into your stories and look at them
because you learn something wrong in
some story that somebody did something,
you know, whatever. I mean, there's, you
know, a million ways that we screw up
our stories and and need to know about
them. Um,
and also there are, you know, some
medications that can be helpful to
people, you know, I mean, it's just, you
know, not to everybody, not to everyone
all the time, but there's a place for
that. But um I think when it comes to
dharma
practice,
it's more about
I mean I don't you know do we want to
say perfection? I mean I don't know if
that's really the word but
>> it's it's more about um
it's not so much about dealing with
mental illness as about getting to a
higher level. And um
I mean the in in that way the two of
them I think are are brothers, sisters,
whatever. I mean they're they're
together. they're doing similar things
but at different angles
and and one of the things that I
definitely felt when I started doing uh
Buddhist practice was
um that there were people who were
getting involved I saw at times who it
seemed to me now of course I didn't say
it to them but I mean it just seemed to
me what they wanted was psychological
help and they were in a Buddhist sa the
wrong place for it. Um, and that's not
to say that they shouldn't go to a
Buddhist sa, but it's just like they
should do they in my humbled opinion,
they would have been better off if they
had if they were to go to a psychology
psychologist of some kind, a therapist,
get help with their stories,
work through that. And this is something
I've done myself. I mean, I have to say
I know this by personal experience, not
by somebody telling me about this. Um,
and that can be really helpful. Um, and
having done that, you can come back to
the dharma in a much better frame of
mind where you're not trying to get
something out of it that it's not really
designed to do. I mean, it can, but you
know, at the end of the day, most dharma
teachers aren't really trained to do
that kind of work, and it's not really
what they should be doing. Um,
and so I think I I just want to say
there's a place for both. And um I think
a lot of people need one and not the
other, you know, and you have to sort of
be careful about, you know, not not
everybody needs to be,
you know, not everyone with depression
or anxiety, you know, whatever needs to
be in a Goanker retreat, you know. I
mean, that sometimes can be a real bad
thing. Um
>> sometimes what they need Yeah, we've
discussed this in one of our prior
podcasts as well. Um, some people really
just freak out in a, you know, long uh,
retreat uh, if they have the wrong kind
of, you know, mental makeup, whatever it
is, the wrong kind of karmic background.
Um, and so I think it's really important
to to keep those understand that they're
they're all alive. They're try both of
them are trying to to relieve suffering.
And in that sense, they're both elements
of the dharma in a bigger sense. you
know, the Big D D D D D D D D D D D D D
D D D D D D D Dharma, they're both
trying to help suffering, but they're
doing it from different angles. Um, and
there's room for both. And, uh, I think
it helps, you know, for any individual
practitioner
to learn where they can be helped the
most first and then, you know, work from
there.
>> That's that's awesome, Doug. I think I
think also what you're touching on Doug
although you didn't say it directly is
in terms of and this relates to some of
the
>> um some of what I'm looking at our notes
here this idea of spiritual you know the
notion of spiritual bypassing that that
>> know people will come to these practices
thinking that they are they can solve
their
psychological issues through practice
and to some degree that might be true.
But what what
my feeling is is that um the practices
can support and enhance that work that
one does in a on a psychological level
of course. Um and that uh it's really
important for any of us that are
teaching to be able to recognize those
moments where somebody is bypassing
thinking they can get around that. Now
there's another kind of spiritual
bypassing which is not related to
psychological issues [clears throat] but
it's related and this this may open up a
whole other can of worms but is related
to the world
and you know the the political situation
of any moment but this moment or you
know the international conflicts and and
sort of when is it
you know do we do we use our our our
meditation as a way of escaping from
that
um or do we use our practice as a way of
relating to that in a particular
uh in a way that actually takes it in
fully
and um
allows us to both accept and do whatever
is possible
um without getting wrapped up in u
uh
you know the the without taking those
external balance battles and making them
internal you know how do we hold that
all and uh I know we I've had you know
somebody in our saga who um really has a
difficult time whenever politics is
brought up and yet it's it's who we are
you know it's like both of my partner
and I it's like when we're when we're
teaching we we teach from the headlines
if if we need to you know there's why
Not I mean it's all there. It's all part
of the samsaric world we live in. And
how do we hold that and [clears throat]
work with it? Um so that's that kind of
spiritual bypassing. Um
yeah.
>> Yeah. No. Um yeah it's definitely
worthwhile to discuss spiritual
bypassing and uh I think something which
is being pointed to there's a a whole
set of discourses in the suta nikaya the
connected discourses which are about um
elements or uh there's a a phrase which
goes that um beings come together and
associate based on shared uh shared
elements or shared qualities. So um it's
interesting you've got you know sutas
where people who like great wisdom they
go to saruta those who like uh magical
powers they go to mahamogalana those who
are interested in divine eye go to
anoruda and it is interesting we do come
together and associate based on our our
interests and our inclinations and our
affinities and um this big tint Buddhism
you know it it makes sense having people
that speak the dhamma uh in different
ways to different people based on their
own backgrounds and their affinities. It
makes sense. And um yeah, one definition
that I've heard you use, Doug, I think
is that the way that you approach these
conversations is uh you know, secular
Buddhism, as you frame it, is a type of
Buddhism which plays well with other
forms of of Buddhism, other forms of of
Dharma practice. And certainly um yeah
although I love the robes and I love uh
you know the brown color even and the
rectangles and my monastic brothers and
sisters and living in monasteries that's
my own affinities and it makes sense
that I'm kind of drawn to that. But yeah
we can play well with other people with
uh different beliefs and uh lack of
belief. Um, and in terms of spiritual
bypassing, yeah, it is one of the
reasons that I I do love the SA is that
it does provide a mirror. I mean, John,
you mentioned having a partner and
partner is a great mirror and so can the
SA especially if you've got uh a great
teacher like I ordained at a Bayer with
Lumpur Pasino who, you know, he became
an abbott, you know, looking after
junior monks the year that I was born.
So basically has been uh shephering or
kind of serving as a a guide and a
mentor uh with utter integrity you know
the whole time that I've been alive and
to have those um yeah honestly the way
that I was picking up the Golinka
teachings was a spiritual bypass I was
becoming weird in multiple ways and to
come into the SA you know I normalize in
a certain way uses this framework of
judging one's own spiritual maturity is
to track be tracking three metrics which
are um flourishing normaly and warmth
>> flourishing normaly and warmth and this
isn't a particularly uh existent
Buddhist list but is a good thing to be
tracking and I was not flourishing I was
becoming abnormal and uh though I
thought I was practicing meta um things
were a little bit cool and cold in my um
conception of things and my lived
experience with others so um Yeah,
coming to a sa which provides multiple
mirrors um if you can find a healthy one
and that's really crucial
>> um is so important you know spiritual
friendship is the whole of the holy life
the Buddha said
>> so um yeah finding different ways for us
not to be able to spiritual bypass and
as you say Doug this Freudian quote that
you know psychotherapy can take uh one
from hysterical misery into common
unhappiness
you know um is a good start you know
talked about that my dad is a
psychiatrist and talking about h that
with him
>> but yeah psychology can take one further
than that the psychology of well-being
and certainly Buddhism as well is a a
study in in happiness
>> no I think that's right I mean it's it's
a study in in in going beyond that that
level of well I mean that'll take you
from the mis the real mis the the
psychology will take you from the you
know the incredible misery to just
regular own unhappiness and then the
that unhappiness and you're at the first
noble truth then okay now we can we can
work with that in the dharma um and uh
yeah I mean absolutely I think that's
>> helpful
>> and and what you're saying the quote
that Ajin Kovilo mentioned from you Doug
around uh secular Buddhism plays well
with others and just this aspect of play
um Alice Gopnik a psychologist at the
University of Berkeley I think um
mentions these three kinds of um fMRI
results for brain scans Then there's uh
spotlight awareness which is fixated on
a certain object. There's lantern
awareness which is very broad and you
see these map easily onto different
meditative approaches. But then there's
a third type of um and I [clears throat]
think to how we hold views you know
either you accept everything and it's
all good or you fix it on one but
there's a third kind of awareness which
I think is good to aim for in practice
and in how we hold these two realms and
that's play awareness and it it
oscillates and it allows you to interact
with other people and have ki
>> um
>> I don't know that's a good paradigm you
know the the playfulness of
>> Yeah it's so
>> yeah these like dancing on this edge of
of
>> right
>> absolutely
No, and also I was going to say that I
mean when you you say I mean I I
probably did say somewhere that secular
Buddhism plays well. Uh it depends how
you hold secular Buddhism.
>> Uh there are some secular Buddhists who
don't play well um with other people. Um
>> but uh you know, okay, that's fine for
them. Um I you know I was that way at
one point not not about secular Buddhism
but about other things. Um back in my
philosophical days I was you know very
set in particular views. That's what
you're trained to do in a in an academic
context is to get fixed to your views
and to defend them to the death you know
in in uh in articles and so on. Um so it
really is an issue of training how to
hold views. I think that that just that
is so that to me that's like the center
of the dharma. That's like you know
because I'm really that's kind of my
thing is views. But yeah anyway
>> yeah and I think the mistake that people
make is that they're not supposed to
have views as if
>> right which is difficult because we
can't get around with we [laughter] have
views whether we want to or not.
>> Yeah.
>> Whether you claim to or not you will
have views. Yeah.
>> I'm sorry to say.
>> How do you hold them?
>> Yeah. Um
>> well well will well you too I think we
may be coming towards the end of our our
hour. Um
>> my gosh
>> time flies.
>> Time does fly.
>> Sorry I'm reminded of click and clack
the tapet brothers. You remember those
guys?
>> Yeah. Car [laughter]
say at the end whether you like it or
not. You've just wasted no
>> we have this big list of like things we
were going to talk talk about and I
think we might have hit the first one if
that [laughter]
>> we touched on more than that. I think we
>> we did. We did.
>> Yeah, actually. Yeah. And we can do it
again. So,
>> I would like that. This is uh Yeah, I've
really enjoyed the conversation and
>> it's good to be able to talk more on
this thing which is really I think at
the heart of a lot of people's
practices. Do they need do they need to
choose a secular or a a more traditional
uh type of Buddhism? And I think people
will naturally lean in one direction or
when they find a flavor that they like,
they'll kind of incline more that way.
But to actually be able to have these
conversations in a way which does I
thought we've all played very well.
[snorts]
[laughter]
>> It's the practice that matters, not the
beliefs.
>> It was great to to meet you, John. This
is the first time we've actually met you
and and just the space you're holding
and and Doug, it's always a pleasure,
you know,
>> for me, too. coming out there in Seattle
and like
>> please if you do come visit us we would
really like that.
>> It would be lovely.
[music]