Teaching quantum physics to everyone: pictures offer a new way of understanding

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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In this episode,

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we explore how pictures

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can be used to teach the fundamentals

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of quantum physics

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to everyone.

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But first, a message from IOP publishing,

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which brings you Physics World

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and also publishes an impressive range of scholarly

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conference proceedings,

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and ebooks.

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You can download the book, The Ringed Planet

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second edition,

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for free for a limited time only

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at i0ppublishing.org/theringedplanet

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The book is a must read on Saturn

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And you can also check out the updated

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and expanded

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third edition by Joshua

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Colwell,

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which is hot off the press.

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You can find it with all of I

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OPP's

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ebooks

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at i0ppublishing.org/publications/ebooks.

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And while you're browsing titles, remember that you

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can always read the first chapters

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of all

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I OPP ebooks for free.

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And I'll include both of those URLs

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in the notes for this episode.

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Today, quantum physics is enjoying a renaissance

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in science and technology.

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After decades of speculation,

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quantum computers are now real things, and quantum

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sensors are being used in a wide range

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of applications

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from underground

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surveying

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to measuring brain activity.

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As the technologies

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we use become more quantum in nature,

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it follows that everyone should have a basic

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understanding

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of quantum physics,

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something that today remains mostly the preserve of

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scientists,

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engineers,

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and mathematicians.

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To explore how quantum physics can be taught

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to everyone,

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I'm joined by Arjun

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Dovin,

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Alex Kissinger, and Bob Kuka,

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who are all based in The UK.

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Bob is chief scientist at Quantinium,

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which develops quantum computing hardware and software.

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Alex is associate professor of quantum computing

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at the University of Oxford,

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and Arjun is studying mathematics

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at the University of Durham.

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Alex and Bob have developed a way of

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teaching

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quantum physics

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using diagrams.

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And in 2023,

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Oxford and Quantinium

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joined forces

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to use this method in a pilot summer

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program

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for fifteen to seventeen year olds,

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and Arjun

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was one of their students.

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Hi, Alex, Arjun, and Bob.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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So, Bob,

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could can we start off

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by,

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having you explain why the time has come

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to teach quantum physics to everyone,

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not just physics students?

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So what's happening at the moment or is

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about to happen, and people should have noticed

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this, I guess, if they're listening to a

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podcast like this, is that we're, like, on

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the verge of

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a a technological revolution, which is gonna be

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the quantum revolution. Some people call this the

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second quantum revolution after what happened, of course,

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in the beginning of the previous

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century.

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And and

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so

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this is gonna impact,

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many aspects of our life,

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very soon for many people. And so you

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want some form of inclusivity

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with respect

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to people knowing what is going on.

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So it's usually, quantum is conceived as something

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that

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you need a university degree and and or

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a or a PhD to understand.

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And now we have the tool at hand

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for, like, a much broader, like, portion of

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society,

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even not everybody, because we like to say

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quantum for everyone,

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can actually understand quantum and grasp the basic

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concepts.

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That's basically what this podcast is about. Some

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work,

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Alex and I did, some experiments with it

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a little bit back to show that what

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I'm claiming here is actually true. Now inclusivity

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means, for example,

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that people students can learn this at high

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school or later, but also that people in

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countries which are usually not that much subject

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to to technological things, like in Africa,

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also can be part

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of this gig. And maybe that's something that's

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gonna come up later in this in in

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this chat. I actually believe that some non

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Western countries actually have an advantage now to

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to be inclusive. Now another thing is I

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mean, I was asked to speak at the

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US capital because this is case of

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workforce

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preparation, like making the workforce much bigger for

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quantum, which is also necessary.

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And I would also bring in accountability here

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because of what we are seeing now with

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AIs. Nobody has a clue what's going on.

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And that's not very healthy,

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especially if only a few people in the

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world with a lot of billions can make

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all the decisions while nobody else knows what's

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going on. So that's the last one. And,

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I mean, as as a last command, I

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would say, quantum comes with a radical shift

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in worldview, in the way we perceive the

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world, not in contrast to classical physics, but

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I would actually take this back two thousand

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five hundred years to the presocratics. But maybe

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we can talk about that later.

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I see. And and, Bob, this is, I

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mean, this isn't just a concept for you.

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You,

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you have spent a lot of time,

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trying to come up with ways of of,

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I suppose, teaching

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quantum physics to to non physicists,

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to the to the general public. And and

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one thing that you've done is you've coauthored

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a book called Quantum in Pictures.

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And that takes a a graphical

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approach with no sort of conventional

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equations

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to teach quantum physics to a wide audience.

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Can you describe the the approach that you've

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taken in the book?

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I mean, this was a very long process.

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And,

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so so my background historically,

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going back to the nineteen nineties,

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is is kind of more with a new

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language for quantum over or a new mathematics

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for quantum. And this goes back to a

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question

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of John von Neumann post in nineteen thirty

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nineteen thirty five when he based John von

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Neumann is the father of the usual quantum

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mechanical,

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formalism, Hilbert space, also being the father of

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the computers we're using here to talk, by

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the way. And he denounced his own quantum

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mechanical formulas in 1935.

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So I came from a culture, a community

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where we try to come up with something

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new.

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And then I was very lucky to actually

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with a background as a physicist to end

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up in a computer science department

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in Oxford where where Alex now is a

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is a professor. I used to be a

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professor there.

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And then

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new ways of viewing at the world came

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from computer science, which are more about thinking

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of things in terms of processes and thinking

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of things in how

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stuff composes together, which are very fundamental computer

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science,

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concepts which a physicist would typically not think

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about in first order. And that basically gave

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a completely new view on how to build

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a quantum mechanical formalism.

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Our first idea was basically to build the

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formalism

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as a high level language for quantum, just

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like any programming language is a high level

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language for zeros and ones in your classical

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computer. And we want to do the do

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the same for quantum, but then very early

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on, I mean, we I started this in

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02/2003, '2 thousand '4. In 02/2005,

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we realized

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that the language we used were actually pictures.

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And these pictures go back to Roger Penrose.

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When Roger Penrose was an undergraduate student, he

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actually had to ill and he had to

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learn relativity theory.

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He basically realized that the symbols you typically

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use in relativity theory could be But

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it was only in the late nineties that

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people realized that it was actually gen genuine

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mathematic. And then over in a process of

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twenty years, we've a great involvement with with

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Alex. We actually ended up with a formalism,

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which was entirely

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diagrammatic. The first the first subject were actually

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the students at University of Oxford,

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like postgraduate students. So Alex and I, we

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together started a course. And in the process

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of the the the textbook of this course

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is now a book called, Picturing Quantum Processes.

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It's thousand pages.

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And so but then

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that book was not suitable for people without

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the right mathematical background. And then later,

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we basically,

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wrote this new book where we said, okay.

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There shouldn't be any a requirements

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in there anymore. So I'll end up, I'll

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end over to Alex who's now more hands

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on on these things.

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Yeah. So I've I think, really, for me,

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this started back around 2012

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or so, when when Bob and I revamped

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the quantum computing course here.

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So during my PhD, a lot of this

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early stuff about processes and things that Bob

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was talking about

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was all formalized using a kind of mathematics

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called category theory,

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which which is just a very abstract way

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of talking about

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processes in a general sense.

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But sort of toward the end of my

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PhD, we realized that the mathematics there wasn't

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so necessary, and you could sort of pull

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that out, teach everything with pictures.

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And then over about a decade of me

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and Bob teaching this course, we were teaching

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people from a lot of different backgrounds, so

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not just physics and maths,

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but also engineering and some social sciences and

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stuff, and realized that that you can actually

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teach quantum concepts to people, you know, much

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more broadly

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than that. And, I think that, that Bob

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and Stefano's book and then and then this

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experiment that we did last

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year with high school students was kind of

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the natural

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next step in that in in in making

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that a bit bit more broad.

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I see. And and in quantum mechanics is

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I mean,

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is there a a sort of long tradition

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of sort of simplifying

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things by well, maybe not simplifying is is

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is not the right word, but

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00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,419
expressing things in terms of

281
00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:32,759
images or,

282
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,000
diagrams? Because, you know, I'm sort of thinking

283
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:35,500
of,

284
00:10:37,694 --> 00:10:38,194
matrix,

285
00:10:38,735 --> 00:10:41,154
mechanics, and then you've got Dirac notation

286
00:10:41,694 --> 00:10:44,414
and Feynman diagrams. There, you know, there seems

287
00:10:44,414 --> 00:10:47,074
to be a a real desire amongst physicists

288
00:10:47,214 --> 00:10:50,115
to use graphical means to understand

289
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,200
quantum physics. And, do you see the these

290
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,340
pictures as a as a natural evolution from

291
00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:58,779
from those concepts?

292
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600
Yes and no. Like, know whether the desire

293
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,259
is there.

294
00:11:03,684 --> 00:11:05,684
Because, I mean, one of the big, well

295
00:11:05,684 --> 00:11:07,704
known examples are Feynman diagrams.

296
00:11:08,164 --> 00:11:10,424
So which Feynman diagrams are a calculation

297
00:11:11,125 --> 00:11:13,845
tool in quantum field theory to make your

298
00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:17,009
com computation much easier. Feynman had to fight

299
00:11:17,009 --> 00:11:19,250
really, really hard to get him through. Although

300
00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:21,730
now everybody sort of assumes, okay. That's that's,

301
00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:22,230
like,

302
00:11:22,929 --> 00:11:23,990
totally straightforwardly

303
00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:26,870
acceptable. No. It wasn't like that at all.

304
00:11:27,009 --> 00:11:29,570
And when you mentioned direct notation, I remember

305
00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:31,134
I was a student in the in the

306
00:11:31,134 --> 00:11:34,514
nineties in a mathematical physics, theoretical physics group.

307
00:11:34,575 --> 00:11:36,835
People looked down on direct notation

308
00:11:37,215 --> 00:11:39,154
because it didn't have the sort of

309
00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:42,195
what they assume sophistication

310
00:11:42,575 --> 00:11:44,195
of the infinite dimensional

311
00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:47,330
complicated stuff. Okay. I'm gonna say something sociological

312
00:11:47,389 --> 00:11:47,889
here.

313
00:11:48,509 --> 00:11:50,750
So so the science as we know it

314
00:11:50,750 --> 00:11:52,990
physically is a very much used to be

315
00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:55,309
a very much white male dominated thing with

316
00:11:55,309 --> 00:11:57,169
a lot of ego and machoism.

317
00:11:57,789 --> 00:11:59,764
And so when I was a student in

318
00:11:59,764 --> 00:12:01,144
the '90, it was really about

319
00:12:01,524 --> 00:12:03,384
the more complicated it is, the better.

320
00:12:04,084 --> 00:12:06,664
And we had to fight really, really hard

321
00:12:06,884 --> 00:12:09,865
to push this formalism through in the mainstream

322
00:12:10,004 --> 00:12:10,504
communities

323
00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:12,830
exactly for the reason that I said. People

324
00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:15,070
said, this can't something simple like that can't

325
00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:15,809
be useful

326
00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:17,889
in any way. Now meanwhile

327
00:12:18,269 --> 00:12:20,590
and, actually, Alex is more active in in

328
00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:23,230
that than me. All the main players in

329
00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:26,565
quantum computing, quantum industry, they're all using this.

330
00:12:27,044 --> 00:12:29,845
Now it's so widespread, but it took us

331
00:12:29,845 --> 00:12:32,345
so long to fight and to get,

332
00:12:32,965 --> 00:12:36,325
things things basically published and and accepted. And

333
00:12:36,325 --> 00:12:37,764
part of the thing we had to do,

334
00:12:37,764 --> 00:12:40,679
which is what Alex alluded to earlier, is

335
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,559
to use this abstract mathematical language of category

336
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,559
theory to make it look more difficult than

337
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:46,620
it actually is.

338
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,179
And that's how we got our papers accepted.

339
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,059
We had to get rid of that stigma

340
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,360
of of this category theory, and that's why

341
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:55,934
we wrote the big book because there was

342
00:12:56,095 --> 00:12:58,034
no mention of category theory anymore.

343
00:12:58,815 --> 00:13:01,154
Okay. And I'd like to move on from,

344
00:13:01,534 --> 00:13:03,875
from from books into teaching.

345
00:13:04,495 --> 00:13:06,995
And in in 2023,

346
00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:11,389
Bob and Alex, I believe you you're both

347
00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:12,610
involved in a

348
00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:15,570
ten week summer course of short lectures

349
00:13:16,029 --> 00:13:19,629
that taught British teenagers, I think, age 15

350
00:13:19,629 --> 00:13:20,450
to 17,

351
00:13:20,884 --> 00:13:23,784
how to apply the the concepts in quantum

352
00:13:24,164 --> 00:13:24,985
in pictures.

353
00:13:26,485 --> 00:13:28,745
Alex, can you tell us about that course?

354
00:13:29,924 --> 00:13:31,605
Yeah. So this was a course. It was

355
00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:33,845
also a kind of a pilot experiment for

356
00:13:33,845 --> 00:13:35,625
this this style of education.

357
00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:37,960
So so it was a team. It was

358
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,360
the project was jointly done by Quantinium and

359
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,659
Oxford Computer Science,

360
00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:43,980
where we took,

361
00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:46,220
in the end, about 50,

362
00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:48,860
UK High Schoolers,

363
00:13:49,875 --> 00:13:51,794
from a pool of about a thousand people

364
00:13:51,794 --> 00:13:52,454
that volunteered,

365
00:13:53,634 --> 00:13:55,574
and gave them a course,

366
00:13:56,595 --> 00:13:58,754
as as close as we could kinda within

367
00:13:58,754 --> 00:13:59,495
our constraints

368
00:13:59,954 --> 00:14:00,774
to a

369
00:14:01,409 --> 00:14:03,190
Oxford Cambridge style

370
00:14:05,089 --> 00:14:06,870
graduate graduate course.

371
00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:09,509
So it was eight weeks of lectures,

372
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:11,669
along with small group,

373
00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:14,709
tutorial sessions. So this was all done online,

374
00:14:16,164 --> 00:14:18,345
and then followed by a,

375
00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:20,105
take home exam.

376
00:14:21,764 --> 00:14:22,245
So,

377
00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:25,284
the lectures were prerecorded and shared with the

378
00:14:25,284 --> 00:14:26,904
students on on YouTube.

379
00:14:27,629 --> 00:14:29,389
And then the and then the small group,

380
00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:31,870
tutorial sessions were were just, like,

381
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:34,290
Zoom chat type things.

382
00:14:35,389 --> 00:14:37,230
So it was it was it was intended

383
00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,090
to be a kind of a interactive thing,

384
00:14:39,704 --> 00:14:41,464
but then but then also to to get

385
00:14:41,544 --> 00:14:43,544
to give a bit of this, sort of

386
00:14:43,544 --> 00:14:44,924
university style experience.

387
00:14:46,264 --> 00:14:48,584
I see. And and we've also well, we

388
00:14:48,664 --> 00:14:50,584
we're we're very lucky to have a a

389
00:14:50,584 --> 00:14:51,084
graduate

390
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,459
of that summer course with us, Arjun.

391
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,259
Why did you,

392
00:14:58,199 --> 00:15:00,679
decide to take part in, in this course?

393
00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:02,860
Did you did you already have an interest

394
00:15:03,079 --> 00:15:05,799
in quantum physics? Or were were you just

395
00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:07,034
curious to,

396
00:15:07,995 --> 00:15:09,294
Why did you sign up?

397
00:15:10,714 --> 00:15:12,634
Yes. So I think it's probably more in

398
00:15:12,634 --> 00:15:14,554
regards to the latter part. I I would

399
00:15:14,554 --> 00:15:17,214
say I became, like, fascinated with quantum physics.

400
00:15:18,475 --> 00:15:21,049
I remember at that point, I had just

401
00:15:21,049 --> 00:15:22,889
finished year 12, and,

402
00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:26,429
I took a level physics. So by the

403
00:15:26,649 --> 00:15:29,610
summer term, we started doing quantum phenomena. And

404
00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:31,289
I remember specifically, it was,

405
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:34,555
we did this experiment with, I believe it's

406
00:15:34,555 --> 00:15:36,555
called, like, an electron gun, and we were

407
00:15:36,555 --> 00:15:38,415
looking at electron diffraction.

408
00:15:40,154 --> 00:15:41,915
And I just thought, like, the concept of,

409
00:15:41,915 --> 00:15:44,235
like, wave particle duality was just so cool.

410
00:15:44,235 --> 00:15:44,735
Like,

411
00:15:45,355 --> 00:15:46,919
I thought it was definitely something I would

412
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:49,559
I would find fascinating, just the fact that

413
00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:51,500
it's so new and it's so unusual.

414
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,500
And so I suppose that made me aware.

415
00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:57,980
And then it was actually my friend who,

416
00:15:58,839 --> 00:16:00,220
was recommended the course

417
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:02,444
by his teacher. So then he sent it

418
00:16:02,444 --> 00:16:04,365
to me and suggested, like, overshoot this together

419
00:16:04,365 --> 00:16:06,304
could be, something fun.

420
00:16:07,245 --> 00:16:09,324
I see. And and what did you enjoy

421
00:16:09,324 --> 00:16:09,824
most,

422
00:16:10,524 --> 00:16:11,664
about the program?

423
00:16:14,764 --> 00:16:16,204
Well, I I would say first thing, the

424
00:16:16,204 --> 00:16:17,580
lectures, it had to be Bob's,

425
00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:21,899
like, use of props and, like, just funny

426
00:16:21,899 --> 00:16:24,220
intros. That's always great. I remember we had

427
00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,139
this amazing skeleton and the spiders. That was

428
00:16:26,139 --> 00:16:26,960
always fun.

429
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,615
But I I suppose I actually enjoyed just

430
00:16:30,695 --> 00:16:32,315
getting more into

431
00:16:32,855 --> 00:16:35,034
the whole, like, making algorithms with

432
00:16:35,575 --> 00:16:36,315
the diagrams.

433
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:38,054
And I suppose it's just a different way

434
00:16:38,054 --> 00:16:39,014
of thinking because,

435
00:16:39,975 --> 00:16:41,254
I mean, from school, I would never would

436
00:16:41,254 --> 00:16:43,254
have thought of using pictures to do math.

437
00:16:43,254 --> 00:16:45,509
I always would have kept separate ideas. So

438
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:47,529
I think that in itself was quite interesting.

439
00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:49,830
I see. And and was it fun? Was

440
00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:51,750
it was it a fun thing to do,

441
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:53,750
or or was it hard work, or was

442
00:16:53,750 --> 00:16:54,809
it a bit of both?

443
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:56,549
I'd say a bit of both. Like, it

444
00:16:56,549 --> 00:16:57,929
was definitely enjoyable throughout.

445
00:16:59,095 --> 00:17:00,615
It did take some time to get used

446
00:17:00,615 --> 00:17:01,115
to.

447
00:17:02,214 --> 00:17:04,535
Although, interestingly, I feel like these are pictures

448
00:17:04,535 --> 00:17:06,375
that feel quite intuitive because it's something, I

449
00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:07,275
guess, you can

450
00:17:07,815 --> 00:17:09,515
conceptualize a lot of the times.

451
00:17:09,894 --> 00:17:11,515
I did feel like I did have uncertainty

452
00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:12,394
as to whether

453
00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:14,829
what I was doing was actually correct. So

454
00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:17,710
I think, initially, I did struggle with being

455
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:20,190
confident in my ideas, but it did feel

456
00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:21,650
pretty intuitive, I'd say.

457
00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,109
I see. And and did did you have

458
00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:26,930
much contact with with your fellow students?

459
00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:29,815
Did did you get an idea for for

460
00:17:29,815 --> 00:17:32,134
who they were and and and why they

461
00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:32,795
were there?

462
00:17:34,134 --> 00:17:35,015
Partially. I suppose,

463
00:17:35,575 --> 00:17:37,115
mainly contacts was

464
00:17:37,734 --> 00:17:38,474
through tutorials.

465
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:41,430
And so I guess there was a there

466
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:42,789
was a range. There were some people who

467
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:45,029
would love to, like, also speak up and

468
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:47,109
we can engage, and some who are more

469
00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:47,609
reserved.

470
00:17:49,109 --> 00:17:50,390
I suppose, Bob, do you have something you'd

471
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:52,970
like to say? Yeah. Bob, go ahead. So

472
00:17:53,134 --> 00:17:54,755
so we had a lot of restrictions

473
00:17:55,055 --> 00:17:57,295
imposed on us because we were doing an

474
00:17:57,295 --> 00:17:59,535
experiment with minors. So one of the things

475
00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:01,215
we wanted to do is a lot more

476
00:18:01,215 --> 00:18:03,615
social media so that students could interact with

477
00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:06,279
each other, but we were told, no. Not

478
00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:08,440
do that. And so it was quite a

479
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,420
bunch of restrictions

480
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:11,180
that we were imposing

481
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,160
on us to the extent that at some

482
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,680
point, I said, no. We are just gonna

483
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,599
pull it because this is not a normal

484
00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:19,575
teaching experience. And then Alex convinced me to

485
00:18:19,575 --> 00:18:21,974
to keep going because I thought, okay. This

486
00:18:21,974 --> 00:18:23,734
is not gonna work. This the results are

487
00:18:23,734 --> 00:18:25,974
not gonna be good because this is not

488
00:18:25,974 --> 00:18:27,734
a normal I mean, I should say something

489
00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:30,055
else, and I don't want to embarrass Arjan,

490
00:18:30,055 --> 00:18:32,289
but like, most of the students just had

491
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:33,190
a black screen.

492
00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:36,609
And and they didn't ask questions. They typed

493
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:38,769
questions. And then I wrote, like, an email,

494
00:18:38,769 --> 00:18:41,409
a long email saying, please, please, show your

495
00:18:41,409 --> 00:18:44,054
screens and speak. Because as a teacher, we

496
00:18:44,054 --> 00:18:45,835
need to see your facial, like, articulations.

497
00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:47,815
We need to hear the tone of your

498
00:18:47,815 --> 00:18:50,394
voice because that's part of a teaching. Teacher

499
00:18:50,535 --> 00:18:53,575
teacher student interaction. And I think for, yeah,

500
00:18:53,575 --> 00:18:56,054
five seconds, some some screens went down, and

501
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:57,434
then they were back again.

502
00:19:00,029 --> 00:19:01,230
So so it sounds,

503
00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:02,429
Arjun, that,

504
00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:05,250
the the sort of remote nature of it

505
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:08,509
was a bit difficult. Or or or I

506
00:19:08,509 --> 00:19:11,089
don't know. Maybe maybe you were happy with,

507
00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,825
with that. Or is there anything is there

508
00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:16,384
anything else that you'd add, to what Bob

509
00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:18,465
said in terms of how it could have

510
00:19:18,465 --> 00:19:20,164
been improved? I mean, I'm guessing

511
00:19:20,625 --> 00:19:22,164
actually going to Oxford,

512
00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:24,705
if that was possible and and doing it

513
00:19:24,705 --> 00:19:28,065
in person would have been fantastic, but maybe

514
00:19:28,065 --> 00:19:28,805
not possible.

515
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,440
Yes. I think,

516
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,420
overall,

517
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,039
I suppose, just naturally teaching online is a

518
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:35,660
bit like, it can be quite in person.

519
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,519
And I guess as Bob said, not many

520
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,759
people did always turn on their cameras or

521
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:41,259
respond.

522
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,522
I just feel bad sometimes for some of

523
00:19:43,522 --> 00:19:45,724
the tutors because we had that awkward silence

524
00:19:45,724 --> 00:19:46,785
for a couple of seconds.

525
00:19:47,404 --> 00:19:47,904
Mhmm.

526
00:19:48,684 --> 00:19:50,365
But, I mean, I I suppose some benefits

527
00:19:50,365 --> 00:19:52,125
was that sometimes I would I would be

528
00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,724
able to message my friends and we could,

529
00:19:53,724 --> 00:19:54,224
like,

530
00:19:55,325 --> 00:19:56,625
we could discuss things,

531
00:19:58,204 --> 00:19:59,105
somewhat freely.

532
00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,109
But I guess that, that was not to

533
00:20:01,109 --> 00:20:02,309
the benefit of the tutors because they have

534
00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:03,529
no idea what we're discussing.

535
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:08,309
But yeah. So so I think just the

536
00:20:08,309 --> 00:20:09,910
online like, as you said, being in person

537
00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:10,730
would have been,

538
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:12,255
perhaps a bit more

539
00:20:13,214 --> 00:20:14,434
invested. But yeah.

540
00:20:15,134 --> 00:20:17,634
And and so what's your view on quantum

541
00:20:17,694 --> 00:20:18,194
physics,

542
00:20:19,454 --> 00:20:21,134
after having taken the course? Are you

543
00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:24,194
I I I understand you you're at university

544
00:20:24,335 --> 00:20:25,075
at the moment.

545
00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,720
Are are are you doing physics? Do you

546
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,299
do you plan to pursue a career in

547
00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:32,059
quantum science and technology,

548
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,519
or have you have you put your interest

549
00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:35,500
on the back burner?

550
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,159
I would say yes. I, like so I'm

551
00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:40,220
currently studying mathematics,

552
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:42,045
but

553
00:20:42,525 --> 00:20:43,965
it was one of my intentions to actually

554
00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:44,465
do,

555
00:20:45,164 --> 00:20:47,244
like, the quantum modules within my second and

556
00:20:47,244 --> 00:20:48,924
third year. So I'm now coming towards the

557
00:20:48,924 --> 00:20:50,125
end of my first year. And,

558
00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:53,805
yes, I thought, and I thought it's one

559
00:20:53,805 --> 00:20:55,404
thing because I do remember speaking to lots

560
00:20:55,404 --> 00:20:57,579
of tutors about, like, as, I guess, Bob

561
00:20:57,579 --> 00:20:59,419
said, like, there's lots of a mat, maths

562
00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:01,759
towards it. And I thought perhaps by doing

563
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:03,740
just maths, then I would be able to

564
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,359
understand those, like,

565
00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:07,819
I'd be able to read more literature and

566
00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:09,039
perhaps have better understanding.

567
00:21:11,454 --> 00:21:12,654
And so, yes, I mean,

568
00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:15,454
I would say I haven't done much more

569
00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,234
in terms of the extracurricular side.

570
00:21:19,694 --> 00:21:21,794
But I think just also seeing the possibilities

571
00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:22,920
throughout the course,

572
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,500
like, just creating algorithms

573
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:27,799
seemed fascinating to me.

574
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,960
I remember I think they did mention one

575
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,500
about solving prime numbers

576
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,539
or, like,

577
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,220
factors

578
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,500
like prime factorization

579
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:36,299
using,

580
00:21:36,944 --> 00:21:39,284
like, quantum algorithms, I thought was really cool.

581
00:21:39,505 --> 00:21:42,144
I see. And you as a you you're

582
00:21:42,144 --> 00:21:44,404
doing maths at university, but

583
00:21:44,704 --> 00:21:46,884
it I mean, for maybe for the benefit

584
00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:49,265
of of of high school high schoolers who

585
00:21:49,265 --> 00:21:51,444
are listening and thinking, should I do physics?

586
00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:53,000
Should I do maths?

587
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,119
Do you have the opportunity to do

588
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,160
physics

589
00:21:57,539 --> 00:21:59,720
as a mathematician? You know, for example,

590
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,600
doing,

591
00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,039
mechanics and and quantum physics.

592
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,335
If you wish, can you can you study

593
00:22:08,335 --> 00:22:10,194
those things in your course?

594
00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:13,555
I suppose yeah. So currently,

595
00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,335
I just wanted to just show some mathematics

596
00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:18,494
I can. I think in the first term

597
00:22:18,734 --> 00:22:19,769
in the first year,

598
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:21,529
a lot of the content is kind of

599
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:23,289
pre cited. You get at least at Durham,

600
00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:24,509
we have one optional module.

601
00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,210
But then I don't think that goes towards

602
00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:29,369
quantum. It's only as within your second year

603
00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:31,470
where you could start to specialize more towards,

604
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:34,565
perhaps, like, quantum modules,

605
00:22:34,865 --> 00:22:36,804
mechanical modules, statistics probability.

606
00:22:37,345 --> 00:22:39,825
So I suppose definitely later on. Although, I

607
00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:41,664
do guess there's also the option of natural

608
00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,865
sciences in which,

609
00:22:43,585 --> 00:22:45,359
we can choose a combination of

610
00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:47,359
subjects. I like to do maths and physics

611
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,980
as as an option.

612
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,660
I see.

613
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000
And and what about the future? Do do

614
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,799
do you see a a career in quantum

615
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:57,859
science and technology

616
00:22:58,734 --> 00:23:00,034
in in your future,

617
00:23:00,494 --> 00:23:02,815
you know, after you've done after you've finished

618
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:03,554
with university?

619
00:23:04,815 --> 00:23:05,714
I would say

620
00:23:06,095 --> 00:23:07,075
probably, definitely,

621
00:23:07,375 --> 00:23:07,875
yes.

622
00:23:08,494 --> 00:23:09,474
Because I think

623
00:23:10,174 --> 00:23:12,254
the quantum space seems to, like, encapsulate all

624
00:23:12,254 --> 00:23:13,740
of my favorite subjects. Because for instance, for

625
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:15,900
a levels, I did math both math, physics,

626
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,920
computer science. I guess quantum computing

627
00:23:18,539 --> 00:23:20,079
is, in a way, all of those.

628
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:21,680
So

629
00:23:22,059 --> 00:23:22,640
I think

630
00:23:23,099 --> 00:23:23,920
also perhaps

631
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:26,595
because it's so new, I think it's something

632
00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:28,295
that would always keep me interested.

633
00:23:28,674 --> 00:23:29,795
So I think something I would always be

634
00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:31,015
enjoyed and pretend doing

635
00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:32,054
regardless.

636
00:23:33,554 --> 00:23:35,795
I see. Good good stuff. And,

637
00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,755
I mean, obviously, the the summer course has

638
00:23:38,755 --> 00:23:39,255
been,

639
00:23:40,589 --> 00:23:43,869
well, Arjun has you've really enjoyed it, and

640
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:46,509
it's encouraged you to to look at quantum

641
00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:47,490
science and technology

642
00:23:48,190 --> 00:23:50,349
as a career. But but, Alex, I understand

643
00:23:50,349 --> 00:23:52,750
that it's it's not just Arjun who's who

644
00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:53,809
did very well.

645
00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,325
You you you had, you had the students

646
00:23:58,325 --> 00:24:00,424
sit a university level exam

647
00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,884
on quantum physics at the end of the

648
00:24:02,884 --> 00:24:03,605
course, and,

649
00:24:04,164 --> 00:24:06,404
I think you were extremely pleased with the

650
00:24:06,404 --> 00:24:08,184
outcome. What what happened, Alex?

651
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:10,470
Yeah. That's right. So so at the end,

652
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:12,890
we gave them an exam which had all,

653
00:24:13,509 --> 00:24:14,009
previous,

654
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:17,269
exam questions that that Bob or I have

655
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:20,230
given on an exam to master students in

656
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:22,304
in past years. So we just sort of

657
00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:23,204
put that together,

658
00:24:23,585 --> 00:24:25,845
adapted a little bit to match the terminology

659
00:24:25,904 --> 00:24:27,684
of the course, and just gave that exam,

660
00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:29,605
really having no idea,

661
00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,144
what we're what we're gonna get back from

662
00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:32,644
this.

663
00:24:33,505 --> 00:24:34,005
And

664
00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:35,750
we're pleased to see that most of the

665
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,210
students passed and,

666
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:40,329
something like forty percent,

667
00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:44,089
or, yeah, around around that actually got distinctions

668
00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:46,250
or or first class marks and things.

669
00:24:47,429 --> 00:24:49,369
So so, yeah, that was really great.

670
00:24:50,265 --> 00:24:51,884
And one of the things I noticed

671
00:24:52,265 --> 00:24:54,664
kind of qualitatively when marking the exam is

672
00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:56,205
that some of the students understood

673
00:24:57,065 --> 00:24:58,445
certain concepts and

674
00:24:58,825 --> 00:24:59,884
possibly even

675
00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:02,125
even in a better way than I see,

676
00:25:02,505 --> 00:25:03,805
with the graduate students.

677
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,490
So so really an example of that is

678
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,269
this idea of nondeterminism,

679
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:12,610
in quantum theory. So for instance, I do

680
00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:15,110
a I do a quantum measurement. It collapses

681
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:16,850
my state, and I I don't get to

682
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:17,350
control

683
00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,464
what state it collapses to. Right? So the

684
00:25:20,464 --> 00:25:22,704
quantum theory has this idea of this kind

685
00:25:22,704 --> 00:25:23,525
of irreducible

686
00:25:24,305 --> 00:25:24,805
nondeterminism,

687
00:25:26,305 --> 00:25:27,605
and quantum computing

688
00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:30,224
really uses this in in the way that

689
00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:31,825
it designs some things. Right? I do a

690
00:25:31,825 --> 00:25:33,919
measurement. This has some sort of action,

691
00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:36,059
and I have to account for that in

692
00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:37,039
a certain way.

693
00:25:37,899 --> 00:25:39,419
And I saw in the way that that

694
00:25:39,419 --> 00:25:41,500
many of the students answered these questions that

695
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,419
they that I think they understood that in

696
00:25:43,419 --> 00:25:44,240
a way that

697
00:25:44,619 --> 00:25:47,099
that was sort of more fundamental, I would

698
00:25:47,099 --> 00:25:48,399
say, than than

699
00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:51,295
than than some university level students.

700
00:25:51,835 --> 00:25:54,154
That that could be that they they aren't

701
00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:56,654
as accustomed to a more traditional or

702
00:25:56,955 --> 00:25:57,455
classical

703
00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,154
way of thinking already that a computer scientist

704
00:26:00,154 --> 00:26:02,494
or physicist would get in in in university.

705
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:06,519
And, Arjun, did you enjoy doing the exam?

706
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:08,619
I mean, maybe enjoy is the wrong word.

707
00:26:08,679 --> 00:26:09,000
But,

708
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359
did did you, did did you find it

709
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,799
was it a nice way to end the

710
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:14,299
course?

711
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:17,525
I think so. I mean, I'm very reluctant

712
00:26:17,525 --> 00:26:19,125
to say I enjoyed an exam, but,

713
00:26:20,244 --> 00:26:21,704
it was definitely nice to have,

714
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:23,765
I guess, more like, because I think one

715
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:25,365
of the things is, actually doing lots of

716
00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,044
questions were really interesting because it was a

717
00:26:27,044 --> 00:26:28,884
way to practice and actually apply what we

718
00:26:28,884 --> 00:26:29,544
had learned.

719
00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:30,519
And,

720
00:26:30,819 --> 00:26:31,880
I guess the exam

721
00:26:32,579 --> 00:26:34,519
was definitely a nice way of doing it.

722
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:37,799
And, gosh, I'm trying to remember exactly.

723
00:26:38,259 --> 00:26:39,720
It's been a while. But

724
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:41,720
I think,

725
00:26:42,734 --> 00:26:43,795
I I mean, I remember

726
00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:45,954
slightly struggling with it initially,

727
00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:47,535
because it was once again, it was one

728
00:26:47,535 --> 00:26:49,954
of those things which is uncertainty. Like, how

729
00:26:50,255 --> 00:26:52,255
how right is my answer? How correct is

730
00:26:52,255 --> 00:26:53,134
it? But,

731
00:26:53,615 --> 00:26:54,515
no. It was definitely,

732
00:26:55,214 --> 00:26:56,160
interesting and

733
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,460
enjoyable.

734
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,099
Oh, that's great.

735
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,140
And,

736
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,059
and, Bob,

737
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,820
final question,

738
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,940
for you.

739
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,559
Do you think that a version of the

740
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,140
summer course could be integrated into

741
00:27:11,575 --> 00:27:13,674
a high school physics curriculum.

742
00:27:14,215 --> 00:27:16,535
And may maybe that's something that that you

743
00:27:16,535 --> 00:27:18,634
and Alex and your colleagues are working

744
00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:21,255
towards now. Is is that something that we

745
00:27:21,255 --> 00:27:21,994
could see?

746
00:27:22,934 --> 00:27:24,634
It is already happening, actually.

747
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,619
Like,

748
00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:26,599
Greece

749
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,720
was the first country to basically start using,

750
00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:32,599
this this language methodology

751
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:34,119
at high school level.

752
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:36,500
So that there is a translation out now,

753
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,759
which was really pushed by by the the

754
00:27:39,964 --> 00:27:40,704
the mathematics

755
00:27:41,005 --> 00:27:42,065
sort of teaching

756
00:27:42,525 --> 00:27:43,984
council in Greece.

757
00:27:44,285 --> 00:27:46,125
So, I mean I mean, it's probably not

758
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:48,144
an accident that it's Greek because

759
00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:50,384
as I was hinting at earlier,

760
00:27:51,404 --> 00:27:53,805
this language is not something you contrast with

761
00:27:53,805 --> 00:27:57,069
classical physics. I think this language basically goes

762
00:27:57,069 --> 00:28:00,669
back to before 2,400

763
00:28:00,669 --> 00:28:02,529
of western scientific tradition

764
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,009
to the pre Socratics in Greece.

765
00:28:06,029 --> 00:28:09,329
Because that's the moment when western science decided

766
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,450
to become mainly

767
00:28:10,974 --> 00:28:11,954
it, reductionist

768
00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:13,234
following Democritus

769
00:28:13,855 --> 00:28:16,835
and having quite a static kinematic based view

770
00:28:16,894 --> 00:28:18,434
following a guy called Parmenides.

771
00:28:18,894 --> 00:28:20,494
On the other hand, you've got people like

772
00:28:20,494 --> 00:28:22,654
Heraclitus who had, like, a process based view

773
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:23,315
on reality,

774
00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:26,190
Leibniz who has, like, an interactive relational view

775
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,289
on reality. And these pictures, without

776
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:30,990
people probably realizing it, they are much an

777
00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:33,630
embracement of a post process based view and

778
00:28:33,630 --> 00:28:37,484
an interactive view. And, so so so something

779
00:28:37,484 --> 00:28:40,284
Alex was hinting out, about, like, they didn't

780
00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:42,684
the people maybe not have been much as

781
00:28:42,684 --> 00:28:43,585
much as subjected

782
00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,365
to, like, western thinking may actually be an

783
00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:48,204
advantage. We kind of saw that the 15

784
00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:49,884
year olds were doing better than the 17

785
00:28:49,884 --> 00:28:52,099
year olds, which kind of proved that point

786
00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:53,720
that the less you've learned,

787
00:28:54,419 --> 00:28:55,799
the less you have to unlearn.

788
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,419
And that's in particular why I think it's

789
00:28:58,419 --> 00:29:00,839
really important to start this stuff very early.

790
00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559
And,

791
00:29:02,259 --> 00:29:04,099
I got a few people now working on

792
00:29:04,099 --> 00:29:06,015
this. Like, we're we're we're talking to many,

793
00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:08,575
many places in the world, like, where they

794
00:29:08,575 --> 00:29:09,555
want to start

795
00:29:10,255 --> 00:29:11,934
this in a pro so one country is,

796
00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:14,755
like, wanting to do high school, teaching

797
00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:16,994
using this is Ghana,

798
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,470
for example. So and, we we also have

799
00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:23,109
a collaboration which is now now funded with

800
00:29:23,329 --> 00:29:23,829
Colorado

801
00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:25,589
Colorado state schools.

802
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:28,869
So several places in the world are starting

803
00:29:28,929 --> 00:29:29,429
to,

804
00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:32,565
have we we we are doing an Ukrainian

805
00:29:32,625 --> 00:29:35,125
translation, by the way, too, on the initiative

806
00:29:35,744 --> 00:29:36,484
from Ukraine

807
00:29:37,424 --> 00:29:39,265
of of the book. So lots of places

808
00:29:39,265 --> 00:29:42,005
are now starting to want to integrate this,

809
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:44,340
But it it's all quite recent. You know?

810
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:46,660
So it's a very ongoing process, and I

811
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:49,059
expect if we speak in a year about

812
00:29:49,059 --> 00:29:52,200
this, their story will be much more advanced

813
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:55,434
and much more, yeah, broader in where and

814
00:29:55,434 --> 00:29:57,914
when this stuff is being, integrated in high

815
00:29:57,914 --> 00:29:59,994
school curriculum. But it should be. It should

816
00:29:59,994 --> 00:30:02,154
happen. It's not just about quantum. It's about

817
00:30:02,154 --> 00:30:04,174
a changing world view to a more relational

818
00:30:04,715 --> 00:30:06,015
and process kind of

819
00:30:06,475 --> 00:30:09,250
way of thinking, which which also makes the

820
00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:11,349
the sciences and humanities a little bit closer.

821
00:30:11,809 --> 00:30:13,890
I see. And and what about you, Arjun?

822
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,890
I mean, you're out of all of us,

823
00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:18,529
you're the closest to to having been in

824
00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:19,269
high school.

825
00:30:20,529 --> 00:30:22,210
Do I mean, do you would you have

826
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:22,710
enjoyed,

827
00:30:24,095 --> 00:30:25,154
seeing this material,

828
00:30:25,855 --> 00:30:27,394
you know, when you're doing your

829
00:30:28,255 --> 00:30:29,955
physics a level or

830
00:30:30,494 --> 00:30:32,434
a mathematics a level or even,

831
00:30:33,215 --> 00:30:34,355
at a lower level,

832
00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:36,654
at a younger age in high school? Do

833
00:30:36,654 --> 00:30:38,335
you think it would be it would be

834
00:30:38,335 --> 00:30:39,154
very useful?

835
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:42,470
I'd yeah. I definitely think so,

836
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:43,450
because

837
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:46,329
I think it's something that could,

838
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:49,269
it could be like a nice way to

839
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:50,950
kind of unite, I guess, physics and computer

840
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:52,970
science. So for physicists and computer science students,

841
00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,934
it, I mean, perhaps creating some algorithms where

842
00:30:55,934 --> 00:30:57,234
they're, like, perhaps more

843
00:30:58,734 --> 00:31:01,134
simplistic, could be nice. And then also, I

844
00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:01,775
suppose that,

845
00:31:02,734 --> 00:31:04,674
it would probably make people more aware,

846
00:31:05,775 --> 00:31:07,455
of just, like, a small if I call

847
00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:08,670
it physics, I guess, by

848
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:10,109
just,

849
00:31:10,590 --> 00:31:11,650
giving more exposure.

850
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:16,509
And so, yeah, I think it definitely would

851
00:31:16,509 --> 00:31:17,330
have been nice.

852
00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:18,690
And I think also,

853
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:21,765
as both Alex and Bob Sway were saying,

854
00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:25,825
by at that point, we've learned less classical

855
00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:26,644
way of thinking,

856
00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:29,525
for math and physics. So it would be

857
00:31:29,904 --> 00:31:31,444
it would make that easier more intuitive.

858
00:31:32,224 --> 00:31:34,460
I see. And and maybe I'll I'll throw

859
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:35,759
this out to to Alex,

860
00:31:36,139 --> 00:31:36,639
first.

861
00:31:37,579 --> 00:31:39,679
What about even younger children

862
00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:41,359
and,

863
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,220
you know, people who have done finished their

864
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:44,720
schooling?

865
00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,755
You know, I'm thinking of primary aid primary

866
00:31:47,755 --> 00:31:48,894
school age children

867
00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:50,174
and,

868
00:31:50,954 --> 00:31:53,914
just just the interested public. I mean, is

869
00:31:53,914 --> 00:31:56,494
there a is there an argument for introducing

870
00:31:56,714 --> 00:31:58,654
or coming up with ways of introducing

871
00:31:59,019 --> 00:31:59,839
quantum physics,

872
00:32:00,779 --> 00:32:02,319
to to those groups of people.

873
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,119
Yeah. I think I think so.

874
00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:06,059
I mean, the,

875
00:32:07,579 --> 00:32:10,140
the original paper of Bob's that kind of

876
00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:13,200
kicked off this education idea was titled kindergarten

877
00:32:13,339 --> 00:32:14,240
quantum mechanics,

878
00:32:14,994 --> 00:32:16,595
which I think was a bit of a

879
00:32:16,595 --> 00:32:18,355
tongue in cheek title that, you know, we

880
00:32:18,355 --> 00:32:21,234
could teach quantum mechanics to kindergartners. But, I

881
00:32:21,234 --> 00:32:22,835
mean, I think it it'd be interesting to

882
00:32:22,835 --> 00:32:24,674
see just how far we can we can

883
00:32:24,674 --> 00:32:26,934
push this. And I I think for instance,

884
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,139
you know, I know anecdotally cases of 12,

885
00:32:30,139 --> 00:32:32,960
13 year olds reading reading Bob and Stefano's

886
00:32:33,019 --> 00:32:34,799
book and getting a lot out of it.

887
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:37,980
So thinking about different different levels to pitch

888
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,934
that at and also also having more materials

889
00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:42,615
that, you know, you can just share with

890
00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:44,375
your friends. Like, so for instance, if people

891
00:32:44,375 --> 00:32:46,855
are interested in pop science, but they don't

892
00:32:46,855 --> 00:32:49,654
have a mathematical background, they can sort of

893
00:32:49,815 --> 00:32:51,174
this kind of stuff, you can get your

894
00:32:51,174 --> 00:32:52,694
teeth into in a way that you can't,

895
00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:55,429
with a pop science book because here, you

896
00:32:55,429 --> 00:32:56,710
know, we give you something, and you can

897
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:58,629
really do some calculations. You can see what

898
00:32:58,629 --> 00:33:00,730
quantum theory is gonna tell you will happen.

899
00:33:01,589 --> 00:33:03,269
And I think that could be really appealing

900
00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:04,250
to a lot of people.

901
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:05,450
Okay.

902
00:33:05,804 --> 00:33:08,924
Well, that's great, guys. Bob, Alex, and Arjun,

903
00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:10,304
thanks so much for,

904
00:33:10,605 --> 00:33:11,904
speaking to me. Arjun,

905
00:33:12,924 --> 00:33:14,944
best of luck with your career

906
00:33:15,565 --> 00:33:17,345
in mathematics and hopefully,

907
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:19,264
quantum science and technology.

908
00:33:20,009 --> 00:33:20,410
And,

909
00:33:20,809 --> 00:33:21,309
Bob,

910
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:24,910
hope everything's going well at Quantinium. And, Alex,

911
00:33:25,769 --> 00:33:28,009
best wishes at Oxford. And thanks so much

912
00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:29,450
to all of you for coming on the

913
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:29,950
podcast.

914
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:32,170
Alright. Thanks, Hamish. Thank you. Thank you. It

915
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:33,464
was a pleasure to speak to you.

916
00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,505
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

917
00:33:42,505 --> 00:33:43,724
for this week's podcast.

918
00:33:44,105 --> 00:33:47,704
Thanks to Bob, Arjun, and Alex for joining

919
00:33:47,704 --> 00:33:50,160
me today, and a special thanks to our

920
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,539
producer Fred Isles.

921
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:55,220
I'll put links to Bob and Alex's books

922
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,059
in the notes for this episode.

923
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400
We'll be back again next week, but in

924
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,059
the meantime, do check out the latest episode

925
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,755
of the Physics World Stories podcast,

926
00:34:06,294 --> 00:34:09,434
which features an interview with Linda Williams,

927
00:34:10,054 --> 00:34:10,554
physicist,

928
00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:11,434
performer,

929
00:34:11,815 --> 00:34:12,954
and self styled

930
00:34:13,494 --> 00:34:14,554
physics Chantouse.

931
00:34:15,494 --> 00:34:18,534
She tells host Andrew Glester about her latest

932
00:34:18,534 --> 00:34:20,210
show called Atomic

933
00:34:20,829 --> 00:34:21,329
Cabaret,

934
00:34:21,789 --> 00:34:24,609
and they chat about how she combines science

935
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:25,650
with music,

936
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:28,130
satire, and performance art.

937
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,809
That episode is called the Physics Chantouse,

938
00:34:32,349 --> 00:34:35,304
when science hits a high note, and you

939
00:34:35,304 --> 00:34:37,644
can find it on the Physics World website

940
00:34:37,945 --> 00:34:41,005
or at your favorite podcast provider.