040 | CHAMPION with Sports Chaplain and Character Coach Roger Lipe

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Tell me about the best team you ever played on, any sport, any time.

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What made that team great?

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Questions like that, get that stuff out of them.

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And then ultimately, I'm going to ask them questions like, if you could have a three-hour lunch with anybody on the planet, who would you pick and why?

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Some of them are going to open up their heart, like Sean Smith did, number 75 from Kansas.

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And he said, well, Roger, be my dad.

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And I said, why, Sean?

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Well, I knew why.

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His teammates didn't know why.

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He said, my dad died 10 days ago.

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I'd love to have lunch with him.

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You think that team won't commit to that guy?

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Freshman dude, he rips open his heart and bam, it's on.

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Hey, it's a great day to get better.

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Greetings, welcome back to another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly.

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Join me, Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place.

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For author and longtime sports chaplain Roger Leip, early dreams of success in sport didn't really materialize the way he'd planned.

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As happens with lots of us, the responsibilities of life came calling, and he found himself in a job that not only wasn't stoking his passion but also making it difficult to provide for his family. In a bold move he stepped out in faith in an entirely new direction and he's been serving athletes, coaches, and others in athletics ever since. Long-serving Southern Illinois University Carbondale and around the globe his most recent move is as a character coach for Nations of Coaches where he helps teams connect and build trust while they compete.

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Now a 15 time published author, his work has been translated into countless languages and has been used all over the world.

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I hope you'll enjoy episode 40 champion with my dear friend, Roger Leip.

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And this week I'm super stoked.

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Uh, Roger Leip and I go way back.

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He was a mentor for me.

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This is not my story, but, uh, I was just coming off of a really tough breakup, an engagement that dissolved, and I was really reeling.

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And if it weren't for the FCA, for Brandon Anderson, who was a guest previously, Vena Klendennen, Ryan Hallihan, just an incredible group of friends who emerged kind of out of the ether and led by this man, Roger Leip, who was a long-time director of FCA at SIU. Today he's a character coach, director for Nations of Coaches, longtime sports chaplain, 14-time plus author, new book coming out which we'll talk about. Roger, awesome to have you. My great pleasure, thanks so much, Toby. So you've kind of heard the format and you know I'm really excited about this because as much as I've heard you minister to people and speak life into people, I've heard you kind of, I don't know, work around the edges of your wrestling career, but I've never really heard your story.

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So I'm super excited.

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So let's start at the beginning, wherever that was for you.

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Wow.

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Well, I mean, for me, I mean, I'm a guy who grew up in Southern Illinois and my family roots go back to the 1700s here.

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So we're very much Southern Illinois in all the pluses and minuses of that all the things that go with that and growing up in a blue-collar community Carbondale is with a university dropped into the middle of it very much in that blue-collar ethic and was pretty much a mediocre high school student and pretty mediocre high school wrestler love the sport it shaped the way I think. I still think like a wrestler. I wake up in the morning looking for a fight every day, let's go.

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And so those things really shaped me. I became a much better official of wrestling than I ever was a wrestler. But at the same time, meeting my wife in third grade and then finally getting a date at 11th grade and being bored to tears in school, it seemed like the natural course of things to get a job, go to work and get married. So I did. Quit school and honestly never went back. And I have regretted that over the years at times, but then some of the friends that I chose in my early 20s and on through my 30s really shaped and helped me discover that, yeah, you can learn even if you didn't go to college.

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You can learn these things.

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You can grow.

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You can develop over time.

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So having friends who challenged me to read, Francis Schaefer, C.S. Lewis, Oz Guinness, a number of other authors that have just really impacted my life.

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Those things really helped me grow and develop in spite of not having a formal education. So that's some of the downside of my story.

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It's some of the regrettable parts, but at the same time now I'm coming up on 48 years of marriage to that same girl and son and daughter-in-law and granddaughters and life's pretty good today.

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Yeah.

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I think it's, we never really know what to expect.

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And a big focus of this show has been that transition out of sport.

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And I know you've certainly helped minister countless athletes through that, but.

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Curious for you.

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So it's one thing to be successful at sport.

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It's another to love it.

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Those don't always have to occur together.

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What was transition out of competition like for you?

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Well, I went into officiating partly because I loved the sport of wrestling and wasn't good enough to do it in college, but I knew I could stay around it if I officiated the sport.

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And so I dabbled in that a little bit on the early side and then found out that I could be good at this and then really applied myself to be better at it. And then I remember watching a tournament one time when I was I thought I'm not good enough to do this regional tournament but then I'm working the scorebook for the host tournament team and I'm watching the guys that they had assigned to this thing I'm better than that guy good grief so I said yes let me in and so then that led to a series of better and better tournaments better and better matches, better and better tournament being positioned in those things.

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And man, I grew to love it.

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So that let me stay around the sport longer.

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But I also began to play racquetball, played lots and lots of fast pitch softball, played slow pitch softball, did all kinds of things just because I love sport.

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And so I kind of stayed engaged with it, but it was the wrestling officiating that really fed the competitive part of me because I prepared for those matches that I'm officiating in the same way I did for matches.

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For me, it was a matter of, I want to do this excellently.

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For me, it was a matter of worship.

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It was a ministry to the players and the coaches that that was my mindset way back then when I had hair and a flat belly.

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That's funny. So you're now a 14 going on 15 time author and you mentioned not necessarily the best student back in your school days. Yeah. What were your dreams back then? I mean, I'm guessing author and full-time sports chaplain didn't make the list. What was young Roger aspiring to be? Grade school Roger wanted to be a major league baseball player. Been a Cardinal fan since the Yankees traded Roger Maris to the Cardinals and haven't been there since earlier this season, but I just love that the way they approach the game, their mindset toward baseball, and that's what I loved playing when I was a kid and wasn't particularly good at it, but I loved it and there was a love for sport, love for competition. That's part of why wrestling was great because it's just you and the other guy, there's nobody else to blame. It's an intensely competitive, I'm kind of a competitive and intense person so it fit my personality, probably shaped my personality as much or more than anything else and it kind of developed tenacity in me and a refusal to quit, some of those characteristics that are still there at days short of 67.

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So you entered the workforce and eventually you end up in ministry.

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What was that transition like?

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Well, were you, I mean, did you sense that there was a larger purpose that you weren't fulfilling?

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Was there a pull toward or a push from?

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Yeah, both at 16, I was part of the Jesus movement and the development of that from California, you know, the Jesus Revolution film. I mean, I was in part of that last scene in that stadium in Dallas. I was one of those knucklehead kids down there. From that moment, I had a sense of calling, that God was calling me to do something. But being a kid from Carbondale, growing up in a Southern Baptist Church, there were two options for ministry. One was be a pastor. And I thought I'd be a really bad pastor. Or you could be a missionary to someplace you can't pronounce. I thought that doesn't, they don't even play baseball there. Why would I go to those places? But so neither of those seemed to fit. And so I was adrift in terms of I have this calling but don't know what to do with it. And then marriage and then sport and then I mean all these other things you got to have you got a job you got to do it. And so worked in the building industry in like home centers, lumber yards and eventually a wholesale distribution company that sells to those places and that's where I learned to travel and to be way outside my box in terms of meeting people and probably develop the off the chart extraversion that I have and then other things of being dissatisfied all the time and trying this other thing, try this other thing and eventually it took one year of absolute horrible failure in business.

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There's that word family, failure.

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We run from it, we fear it, we try to explain it away, but why?

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Because it's painful.

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It's sometimes embarrassing, and almost all the time, it hurts.

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Roger had felt a calling on his life at a young age, but he wasn't sure exactly what shape that might take.

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So he went on with his life, and he pursued a career, until the bottom fell out of that, and he found himself again searching for purpose.

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The thing about pain is that it demands a response. You can ignore it for a while, but it usually just keeps getting worse. For Roger, the discomfort of a particularly bad year in sales meant he was finally ready to revisit his life's purpose. And that willingness to sort through pain led to a redirection and a discovery of possibilities that he'd never fully considered before. A temporary failure opened the door to a lifetime of success.

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In a full commission job, if you sell stuff, you make money.

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If you don't sell anything, you don't make any money.

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My wife hated it.

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It was terribly insecure.

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The ministry with which I had been volunteering for a few years offered me a position with a terribly small salary, but she loved it because it had the word salary on it.

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She knew what to expect at the end of the month. And so I jumped in, partly kicked out of the business world, but drawn into this ministry world.

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And working the next four years for my mentor really kind of replaced what would have been college and seminary for me. Just riding in the car with that guy, working together, traveling abroad, doing some other things like that, really really kind of supercharged what my life in Christ and my skills to be able to make the next step, which was then FCA in 1994.

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There's certainly been a big pivot for young people where your generation and even my generation as a Gen X are like, we made our own way.

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And I find myself guilty as well at times where you want to be that lawnmower parent that's clearing the path for your kid or the helicopter parent that's hovering over.

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No doubt.

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But if we over protect, we rob those under our charge of the value of failure.

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And it's been said, and by a smarter person than me, that we'll learn more in failure than we would have in success many times.

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What does that failure teach you that you think maybe if you had just kind of idled along and grown as a salesperson you wouldn't have learned? One that failure is not terminal. One can recover from it. I often tell young people now it's like I've been talking with guys who are just graduating and trying to make the next step in their playing career and often I'm telling them look let's suppose you make this choice and it's horrible.

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It's just bad, 100%.

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It's only a year.

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You can recover from it.

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It's not that big a deal.

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You can come back.

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It's not that bad.

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Do your best to make the best decision possible, but in the worst case scenario, you can still come back.

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I said, look, I've failed plenty.

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I'm not scared of it anymore.

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Let's take some risks.

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Let's get after things.

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Yeah, so making that jump from, in your case, it's kind of the opposite of the way I tend to see it, where we jump from something that's safe and known into something that's unknown, you kind of did the opposite.

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You went from no ceiling, but also no floor in a full commission job to a steady income and promise of training.

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So when you're standing on the edge of that possibility, what did that job opportunity offer that continuing down that path wouldn't have given you?

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Great question, and it was very simply this, it gave me the opportunity to pursue the calling that I thought I had.

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This thing was still echoing in the back of my mind from 16 years of age, here I was at 29, 30, anyway, all of a sudden I can see it and I can almost touch it.

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It's right there. Let's go after this. But that was it. It was the sense of purpose. Why did God make me and how can I go after that? And to kind of draw the sporting thoughts full circle, I remember in 1980 watching the film Chariots of Fire and up until this point in my life in Christ and my life in sport in particular I had been a very dualistic kind of person that you know what I love to compete I'm gonna go stinking hard but I could hear people at church saying Rog play nice I hate playing nice I love to play really hard so if they're if I'm playing baseball and I'm a first base runner and there's a ground ball to short, you'd better believe I'm taking out the second baseman. Why? To be a good teammate I need to break up the double play. But if I did, I could hear in the back of my head people, play nice, play nice. So I'm condemned either way. If I fail to take the guy out, I'm a bad teammate because I didn't do the right thing by the game.

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So I'm stuck in a terrible catch 22.

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But here I am watching Eric Little in that film run in the 1924 Olympic Games and his heart is just oozing out of every pore of that guy's being as he runs in the 400 meter final and he's standing there saying, I feel his pleasure.

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What a powerful quote and an incredible sentiment.

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That word purpose can be so incredibly important on our journeys from falling apart to falling into place.

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It's clarity of purpose that helps us realize that our pains are temporary.

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It's purpose that draws us toward the goals and the dreams and the impact that we have ahead.

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And it is purpose that fuels us as we make our way from injured to impactful.

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In a moment of crystal clarity, Roger saw how he could reconcile his competitive spirit with his faith in a way that wasn't just refreshing for him, but powerful and inspiring for the competitive athletes he would continue to serve throughout his career.

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Here I am in the theater going, I desperately want to be that guy. I want a sense of integrity about this.

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These things are not opposing each other. My life in Christ is my life in sport. Can I get them to fit together? And suddenly that unlocked, for me, is the thing I still drive players toward is a sense of integrity about their life in sport as opposed to a set of competing interests.

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Let's be whole, let's be together, and experience the richness that comes from that.

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Well, you and I have both operated in collegiate athletics for a long time, and we haven't been at the Georges or the Blue Blood.

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We've been at schools where, you know, every year you'll have a few guys or gals who have a shot potentially at playing at the next level, but rarely is it a sure thing.

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And for a lot of them, they labor and kind of bounce around and there's always that sense of, am I chasing this out of vanity?

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Is this meant to be?

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Should I just go on and do other things?

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And so what do you think that experience going from sales to eventually into ministry.

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How does that impact how you counsel people who are searching for that purpose and struggling with whether or not to give up on a dream and go do the sensible thing or to stick it out and maybe become someone who made a roster, who made a difference, who ultimately did achieve their goal?

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Hadn't thought about it much until you just said this, but when I look back at how I talk with players about that very issue of, should I take a shot at this thing? I invariably tell them, go! Do it! Take your best shot. I remember telling Ryan Hallahan that. I said, look, they're not calling you if you don't go to the workout. If you don't go to the training, no, they're not calling. But if you go and you just blow the thing up, maybe they call you. But they're certainly not calling if you don't go. So take the risk, go out there, do it. I remember watching him play in the game, it might have been in Louisville, but I remember that guy doing that, taking his best shot, and he could walk away knowing, I took a big shot at it. Now that dude's a big shot in San Diego PD, I'm like, I'm proud of that guy.

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But he didn't turn into Harry high school wearing his letter jacket at age 40 going, well, I probably could have played in the league.

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Oh, shut up.

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Take your shot or shut up.

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And so that's what I tell guys.

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Remember there was a player linebacker for us a few years ago.

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Watching him late in the season.

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I'm standing on the sideline, watching him chase a play across the field.

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He had a back injury.

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And the dude running like an old man, I ran better than he did.

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And then like the next week, I'm standing there by him as the last practice of the last season of the last game of the season. And I said, all right, what are you going to do here when the season's over? He said, I think I'm going to train and take a shot at the NFL. I kind of looked at him and hopefully I didn't emote on my face what I was thinking, because I'm thinking, dude, you can't even run now.

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What are you gonna, then I looked at him and I said, son, go for it.

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Take your best shot.

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And you know what, that dude did not get drafted, signed a free agent deal.

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He played three years for the Miami Dolphins.

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Wow.

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And I'm like, I saw him for breakfast one day at Mary Lou's in the off season.

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I said, man, I'm proud of you.

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You took your best shot and you succeeded. Good for you.

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Yeah. I struggle with this one because I'll have students sometimes who, you know, they're on the verge of failing out of the program or maybe they have to retake a course, which means they're out a whole year and they have to come back. And I struggle with how to counsel them in that moment. And I'm always reminded for myself, there's a scene in Rudy where Rudy's at the bus stop getting ready to go to South Bend and his dad comes and talks to him and his dad being the voice of reason.

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And so many times I feel like I'd have this conversation with myself instead of having the courage to take the big swing, to do the thing that it takes, starting a podcast or, you know, whatever it is that I'm terrified of.

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My Rudy dad comes and sits down in my brain and says, you can live a damn fine life being a Ruediger.

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Notre Dame's made for elite athletes, it's not made for you.

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But the world does a pretty good job of putting people and naysayers in our path that will do that.

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You take a different path.

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You speak encouragement and life and light into people.

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And I'm just, I'm curious your take on that.

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and light into people.

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And I'm just, I'm curious your take on that.

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Yeah, I couldn't live with myself otherwise because I know most of the best things that I have done in terms of accomplishment or even more than accomplishment, fulfillment and significance, is be, came at the cost of risk.

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Absolutely.

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There are no guarantees, but the best stuff has happened because I'm willing to take the risk. Whether that's traveling to parts of the world where I don't know anybody and I'm gonna show up and hopefully a dude's gonna meet me at the airport and we're gonna go. I'm going anyway. But it's like even got in trouble with my wife last summer because I was really connected with the people I was going to go serve.

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And man, the travel there was bad, the travel back was bad, but the time when I was on the ground with those guys was outstanding.

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It was worth it because there was significance attached to it, not just a box to tick.

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It wasn't just something on your bucket list. No, no, no, no. This had significance to it more than some fleeting, hey, let's go do a crazy thing. Nah.

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Yeah. So you leave sales and go into ministry. By the time I met you, you were chaplain at SIU and had served in that role, but there was more to that job than we realized. Being an FCA staff member meant you were serving a huge rural geographic area.

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Very big.

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What was that season of life like for you?

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And what did you learn that you still brought forward with you into your role today?

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Yeah, I spent a lot of hours in the car trying to go see places, trying to pioneer this ministry into new communities, connecting with people.

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Thankfully, my ministry with my mentor's ministry was deeply involved with volunteers.

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And so most of what I learned about leading volunteers came as a benefit of having worked there because virtually everybody I worked with in FCA was a volunteer also.

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All those huddle coaches scattered out in schools all over the place.

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One has to lead them differently than he does if you're leading employees.

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You know what I mean?

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Leverage.

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You have to – it's all relational.

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And so that really enhanced what I did.

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A large part of what I learned was how to do that well, to get people onto your team and keep them on your team and nurture and develop those people.

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That was a huge thing.

00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:30.240
But that also gave me a place to experiment with things like writing, like leading camps, like doing other things to help develop ministry in sport that was for the sports people, not really for fans.

00:24:30.240 --> 00:25:01.200
But and so I keep I still have opportunities to do that in the US and abroad and man that's some of the richest stuff I get to do to see things we cook up in my house in Carbondale suddenly have an impact in Kazakhstan and Ukraine and Russia and that's pretty rich for a dude from Carbondale. That's awesome. So you spent several years at SIU during that time and I remember getting your emails. I think I'm still on your list.

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:28.000
Those kind of regular devotionals. Yeah. Where did the thought of I'm going to turn this into a book or expand my reach beyond, I don't know, I don't know what's your highest number of student athletes at SIU, but anywhere from 20 to 40 that probably attend your weekly get-togethers. But certainly now your book has been interpreted in other languages, it's gone around the world. Where did that idea spark from?

00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:37.980
It's funny because the writing of the stuff for the very beginning was very haphazard and backward, as is often my case, I stumble into things.

00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:44.000
Women's basketball at Southern, I had just kind of been given entrance, Branda was on this team.

00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:53.200
They started the season, Mary Helen Walker was a friend of ours, and I met practice a couple of times and I'm watching them and exhibition games coming along.

00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.480
Mary Helen said, Raj, we're not very good.

00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:56.759
We can't concentrate.

00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:58.279
We don't have any intensity.

00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.960
She listened about the three or four things that are my best stuff.

00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.680
And I thought, what am I going to do?

00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:10.400
I thought, encouragement is probably my, if I had a gift, that's probably it.

00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:13.480
So I thought I will sit down and write a letter to the team.

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.400
So I crank out some letter on my letterhead.

00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:22.880
And while I'm writing the letter, trying to encourage them, Psalm 90 verses 12 through 17 popped into my head.

00:26:22.880 --> 00:27:24.960
And I was like, let's throw that in there and put that in there and then finish the note and Wrote it. I also wrote a note to the head coach Cindy Scott. I said coach. Here's love to serve your team I'll do anything I can to help you put both letters in an envelope Do envelopes and handed them a Mary Helen I said now look if either of these things are too forward throw them in the trash I don't want to jeopardize anything with you and the head coach, you know, okay Well here comes pregame they do all the warm-up, they come walking up to the floor for the tip-off, Mary Helen walks by the bench and she looks back at me, she says, she read the letter to the team. I'm going, oh, oh Lord, we really need to play well tonight. And at the end of the first half, we're up 20. Mary Helen walks by, write more letters. I said, play another half. Well, how do you follow that? We wound up winning by 24 or something. So suddenly I'm writing, how do you follow that? Well, keep writing more, I guess.

00:27:24.960 --> 00:28:03.039
And so I just kept doing that. And then the next season I had a more systematic way and wrote a whole season's worth preseason and did it again and did it again. And pretty soon I had enough stuff for a book. And I thought, maybe I could compile this stuff and I sent it to a publisher and he said yeah let's do it. I thought you're kidding me blew me away. That was the beginning of it very backward very I don't even understand but suddenly I was given favor in a remarkable way both by coach Scott by the players by the publisher and all of a sudden here it goes.

00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.559
The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:06.640
Sure.

00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:11.400
Well, to he who is faithful in a little, more is given, right?

00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:19.240
So, in my mind, you'll forever be the face of SIU and of Southern Illinois FCA.

00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:27.980
And so when I saw that you were leaving that position, I was stunned, and I'm sure you've heard this from other people.

00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:34.559
So today you're with Nations of Coaches and it wasn't a retirement, it was a reorientation.

00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.279
You were just, you changed launch pads.

00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:42.200
And so talk to us today about your role with Nations of Coaches.

00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:52.000
Well, I've known the guys who run Nations of Coaches since the CEO was in a coaches huddle with me at a camp in North Carolina, way back years, decades ago.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.200
We were in a group together.

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.700
And so we'd kind of stayed roughly in touch over the years.

00:28:55.700 --> 00:29:02.880
And he was one of those guys getting my Monday morning devotions and we've stayed in touch and I guessed it on a couple of things they did.

00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.319
And we'd bump into each other once in a while and compare notes on people.

00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:18.319
And March of 2020, got a note from their CEO saying, our COO saying, hey, there's a position we want to fill of a character coach director.

00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:19.880
Here's the job description.

00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.119
Do you know anybody who might fit this?

00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.839
Because I've got a pretty broad network of people who do this all over the world.

00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:30.400
Then he's in and out of the paragraph and he says, and if it would interest you, we'd love to talk with you.

00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:36.079
Well, I opened the PDF, read that thing and I thought, holy smoke, this looks like me.

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:41.240
Sent it to a couple of my best friends and they said, hey, are you sure you didn't write this for yourself?

00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.640
I'm like, oh gosh, I guess I have to talk to him now.

00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:46.559
I thought, well, I'll have three provisos.

00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.400
These three things must be or I can't even think about it.

00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:51.359
They went, check, check, check, good idea.

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.440
I'm like, well, I guess I have to keep talking with him now.

00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:05.039
I started pursuing this and thinking about it and eight Zoom meetings and an in-person meeting and such later, and they're offering me a job and I'm going, this is the thing I've been asking FCA to let me do for 20 years.

00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:27.640
And these guys want me to do it as the only thing that I do. In my role with FCA, I had a bunch of roles and responsibilities that were central to my job. And then most of the character coach, sports chaplain stuff was on the edges. These guys gave me the opportunity to pull that right to the middle and to do that exclusively.

00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:40.839
And so instead of doing things broadly and shallowly, I get to do them narrowly and deeply down. And at this stage in life, you know, I was about to turn 65 then. And I said, fellas, I'm about to turn 65 and I have no interest in retirement.

00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:42.200
I'm ready to hit a new gear.

00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:46.640
I think I have five to 10 years of go really hard in me. You want to go?

00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:55.000
Yes. And now we're two years into that and it's going.

00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Yeah. Well, you alluded to it when you were talking about your letter to Coach Scott, and it's something I've dealt with as an athletic trainer in a public institution.

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Almost this sense that, especially for me, your role was you were employed through FCA.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:32:28.319
You weren't employed necessarily through the university, so you were there of your own accord and bringing the Bible or bringing faith into the conversation maybe was, okay, Roger, he's the church guy. Whereas for a lot of the staffers you work with, like if I'm employed by a state institution, then separation of church and state says that I can't really minister to someone unless they come to me seeking. So what counsel do you give to the coaches that you work with maybe primarily but maybe also support staff who have ministry, they have a faith and ministry is a part of who they are but in their role they don't really feel like they can fully enact that. Yeah I tell them very simply connect directly with your direct supervisor. Say, this is who I am. Same thing I tell coaches when if they're gonna let me serve their team, say, coach tell me where the boundaries are, I'll play within the boundaries. Pretty simple. It's like, this is the boundary, don't go outside it. I'm like, okay. So I just tell them, ask that straight up. And here's what I found over the years, because I mean, you're right, I come in as a volunteer, absolutely. That's the beauty of it. You can't fire me. I don't work for you.

00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.319
They don't have to let me in there anymore.

00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:36.960
But the thing is, if I play within the boundaries that are given me, there's pretty wide freedom in there.

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:45.019
And that's pretty much it. Again, if you do things in a relational manner as opposed to a programmatic manner, that's what works.

00:32:45.019 --> 00:33:14.640
People get it that you care about the people. It's like when our head baseball coach died a few years ago, a number of years ago now, they didn't call a local pastor to come to meet with the baseball club in the clubhouse. No, no, they called me because they knew I get it. I know the head coach. I know the coaching staff. I know these guys and can connect and speak at baseball level, not just at the pastoral level.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:19.539
And that rang the bell in that very grievous situation.

00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:20.380
Sure.

00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:24.599
Also along the way, you served as a chaplain for Southern Illinois Miners.

00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:31.720
Sadly no longer exists, but certainly that environment is lots of roster churn.

00:33:31.720 --> 00:34:27.380
Mike Pinto was a guest on the show and heard about his approach and how he was very athlete first and you know it might have cost him some ballgames or some playoff chances but he brought you were brought in so talk to me a little bit about your work in minor league baseball. I absolutely loved it I've been given an opportunity to talk with another group in a major city with a major league baseball club just a couple of years before I went started serving the minors and they asked me about this and I was just getting ready to go to on a trip to Cuba and other things and I said okay guys this would mean ministry with the NFL Club the NHL hockey team and with the Major League Baseball Club and yeah and some professional soccer too and I'm like oh my gosh what a great opportunity that would be.

00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:31.380
But then the more I thought about it, the more I prayed about it, I thought, you know what?

00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:47.699
After this many years of serving in college sport where nobody makes any money, the first time $5 million bonus dude was rude to a seven-year-old about an autograph, I'd have a terrible time serving that guy.

00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:55.079
So I looked at right in the eye and I said, beyond that, my wife's not going to move and I'd have to get a new wife.

00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.119
That'd be a bad idea and a bunch of other things.

00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.639
And I thought, you know what?

00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:00.760
I think I better stay right where I am.

00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:10.159
Well, shortly thereafter, after saying no to that phenomenal opportunity, all of a sudden the opportunity to serve the miners came up as the last guy had left.

00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.239
They called me and said, would you consider doing this?

00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:38.000
And I said, well, tell me what that means and tell me about the manager and all that. And I said, let's do it. And went over there and met Mike the first day and clicked immediately. And man, I had a guess, because guess what? Those guys playing in Frontier League, independent baseball, were very much like college kids. Some of them were in that same age range, but they didn't make a ton of money.

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000
They weren't pretending.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:44.559
They didn't have a $5 million signing bonus to scrape through to get to their hearts.

00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:53.239
Standing around the batting cage at BP was gold, and opportunities happened every single day.

00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:54.239
It was just precious.

00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:55.239
Yeah.

00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:59.960
Well, in your work now, you mentioned the Cardinals, and the Cardinals are renowned.

00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:04.760
I'm a Midwest guy, so it's hard to be here in Texas and be a Cardinals fan.

00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:09.280
But they're renowned, A, for best fans in baseball.

00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:10.280
They understand the game.

00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:11.239
They know when to cheer.

00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:17.519
They're the earliest to guys who come back who used to wear the birds on the bat.

00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.119
But they're also a culture organization.

00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:24.400
And in a season like this, Cardinal fans aren't used to them struggling.

00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.000
They aren't used to maybe a void of leadership.

00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:34.000
You know, a guy like a Molina who absolutely is like an epicenter and a walking ambassador of the culture.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Those are huge shoes to fill.

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:46.000
And we were talking off camera before the start, in this day and age of transfer portal and name, image, and likeness, coaches have to re-recruit their rosters every day.

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:57.000
So what do you do to help build culture or help coaches build culture so that they can kind of stem the flow, if you will.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:05.000
I've heard that roughly 50% of all rosters turn over in a given season, and some places it's worse than that.

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:11.000
I think we lost, of our 15 or so guys, we lost 10, almost all to the portal or NBA.

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.699
It's hard to build a culture when the faces change year to year.

00:37:14.699 --> 00:37:17.619
You don't have a fourth or fifth year senior anymore.

00:37:17.619 --> 00:37:24.199
What do you do to help build that from within and make that part of the organization you're working with?

00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:25.619
That's what I work hard to do with teams.

00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:33.039
And I kind of developed, if I had a secret sauce, it was developed with Jerry Kill when he was a head coach here.

00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:35.219
We started in 01 and then 02.

00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:52.400
And then between those 2002 and 2003 seasons, we were standing there in his office and talking for a moment and he said, you know what, Rog, I don't think our guys know each other very well. And just on the edge of that comment, I started contemplating what does that mean and what should be done about it.

00:37:52.400 --> 00:38:02.800
And the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, the best teams I've been around anywhere, any sport, anytime, they're great teams because they're committed to each other.

00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:10.940
The problem is human nature being what it is, we don't commit to people we don't trust and we don't trust people we don't know.

00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:15.039
So if we go all the way back to Jerry's original question, I don't think our guys know each other very well.

00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:16.960
How are you going to build a team if they don't even know each other?

00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:22.099
You don't know that number 62 is Mike Fritzler.

00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:23.619
How do you get that done?

00:38:23.619 --> 00:38:52.239
And so I started working on a way to develop teams by first helping them know each other, get the facts of who each other are. Secondly, getting their stories of their passion for the game out of them. That's the stuff teammates trust about each other. That dude's a player. That guy gets it. All that stuff that's about the game will build trust over time, especially as they play, but more as they talk about it, what's important to you in that.

00:38:52.239 --> 00:39:43.440
And then thirdly, if I can get that guy to unzip his heart for a second and show us what's really important to him or what's at the core of who he is, that's what they'll commit to. That stuff that's at the core of you, that's what they'll commit to. And so I work in the preseason to do that, who are you, get to know you, identity kind of stuff first, then get to their passions, and then thirdly get to their the depth of what's at their middle of their soul. If I can get that out of them, that's when commitments get made and that's what builds excellent teams. Hit the brakes right there. Let's recap because this is absolute gold. To build a high-performing team, you need trust, but trust never just sprouts in a vacuum. Let's go back to Rogers quote, we don't commit to people we don't trust and we don't trust people we don't know.

00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:47.719
As a result, that first step is to help teammates get to know one another.

00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:53.639
From there, that second step is to allow them to connect with each other's why, why they have a love for the game.

00:39:53.639 --> 00:40:30.320
What's their motivator that sets their heart on fire to compete? And from there, the last step is to create safety and a culture where members can be vulnerable with one another and pursue their goals together Those are the seeds where trust can sprout and any team that has trust has a shot at doing some pretty big things Obviously you have to have talent. Obviously you have to have scheme, but this softer Skill kind of stuff is what most coaches don't want to do and are not good at but it makes room for a guy like me to come in and help develop that bond in the team.

00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:31.320
Absolutely.

00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:36.280
So, Coach Kiel obviously has leveraged that to great success everywhere he's been.

00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:39.400
Minnesota, now NMSU if I'm not mistaken.

00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:40.719
Yeah, New Mexico State.

00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:42.840
With Mario as well.

00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:43.840
Yep.

00:40:43.840 --> 00:41:03.039
So, say a coach is listening right now and they don't have access to you being in their office helping you instill this. What would you tell them if they're trying to build this culture on their own? Where would you point them? Well, I would point them to their own resources they have right there at their hand. The ability to ask good questions, because that's my process.

00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:41.079
I don't tell them squat. I ask questions to lead in a direction for the discussion and I get them to discover the truth I would have taught them anyway. Sneaky. I just get them to go along and I kind of facilitate the process by asking questions and follow-ups and okay where does this go and get them to talk to each other and they it happens but that's it's not rocket science but it's built on those three big ideas. Who are you? Get to that sense of who are you?

00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:44.960
Where are you from? What's, you know, background, all that stuff. Birth order.

00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.519
I ask him about all that kind of stuff and get those things out.

00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:52.320
One of the best things I do every year is I'll get guys to pull up their sleeves and say, tell us about your tattoos.

00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.760
And I get the real story on those guys from their tats. It's amazing.

00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:03.380
Learn more about them in five minutes, talking about tattoos than I could have for months otherwise.

00:42:03.380 --> 00:42:07.440
But then, beyond who are you, then what makes you go in the game?

00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:11.460
You can ask questions that pull out their passion for the game.

00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:14.079
Who's the best player you ever played against?

00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:16.039
Who's the best teammate you ever had?

00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:21.360
Tell me about the best team you ever played on, any sport, any time, what made that team great?

00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.360
Questions like that, get that stuff out of them.

00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:32.739
And then, ultimately, I'm gonna ask them questions like, if you could have a three-hour lunch with anybody on the planet any living person Who would you pick and why?

00:42:32.739 --> 00:42:51.659
Well, some of the dudes are gonna pose and they're gonna tell you a porn star or some celebrity whatever sit down But some are gonna open up their heart like Sean Smith did in probably 2002 3 Number 75 from Kansas and he said, well, Roger be my dad.

00:42:51.659 --> 00:42:52.659
I said, why, Sean?

00:42:52.659 --> 00:42:54.380
I knew why, his teammates didn't know why.

00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:57.179
He said, my dad died 10 days ago.

00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:59.739
I'd love to have lunch with him.

00:42:59.739 --> 00:43:02.659
You think that team won't commit to that guy?

00:43:02.659 --> 00:43:07.940
Freshman dude, he rips open his heart and bam, it's on.

00:43:07.940 --> 00:43:19.480
One year I asked the question of the day was, if you could switch lives with anybody for two weeks you get his life. He gets your life for two weeks Who would you pick and why?

00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:42.599
And Nick King number eight from East st. Louis, Illinois Said Roger be my dad. I said why Nick said my dad has diabetes He just had a leg amputated It'd be fun for my dad to know what it feels like to be a young man again. I love Nick King. Yeah. Right there.

00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:55.519
Like that's awesome. That's worth 40 posers telling me and other kind of crap. When Nick bares his heart, his teammates are going to commit to him. They're in that with that guy.

00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:15.119
Awesome. Such a great strategy. And you're right. We connect with people when we really know them and when they have their masks on or a sport is I've heard it described as maybe only second to the military and we have this false bravado like it's weakness to be vulnerable.

00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.039
And what you're talking about I mean that's Brene Brown, that's vulnerability.

00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:24.760
If you want to build a culture we can't do it if we're all walking around armored up.

00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:28.800
And that kind of thing I do this in locker rooms. I don't want coaches around.

00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:44.400
I don't want anybody else that they have to try to impress. It's them. It's their teammates. It's in the middle of multiple day practices. It's in the grind of the stuff that is that shared experience and these kind of moments that bond those teams together, just like the military.

00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.199
It's the shared experience that really makes it happen.

00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:53.000
Yeah. So I'll make this personal. My son, his team played in the state tournament.

00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:58.199
They were final four, they lost the semifinal.

00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:01.559
The guy they faced, probably the best high school pitcher I've ever seen.

00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:06.960
He was sitting on 95, 96, I mean, he was slinging it.

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:11.159
And they lost, and they had high hopes of being state champions.

00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:16.559
And our football team and our basketball team both won state this year as well.

00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:18.559
So in a lot of ways, they're disappointed.

00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:19.639
They failed.

00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:23.519
They have not finished the job.

00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:30.920
What do you say to an athlete or to a team that doesn't reach the goal that they set out for themselves at the start of the year?

00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:41.920
What I do is I ask them to go all the way back to the beginning and let's recall every place that we did something significant, not just successes, but significance.

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:48.800
What were those highlights along the way that you can point to and say, that was a big day because X.

00:45:48.800 --> 00:46:03.500
This is part of the mindset thing of Dr. Dweck from Stanford talks about, it's not necessarily the event itself, but your retelling of the event that really sticks in your brain and becomes the long-term memory.

00:46:03.500 --> 00:46:25.500
So if I can get them to go back and recall those really significant moments, write them down, write the story, all that stuff that recalls for them all those significant moments through the season, that winds up being the enduring memory of that whole season more than their sense of disappointment as how it finished.

00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:29.840
That's what I would tell them to do is go back, let's recall these things.

00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:51.800
That's why I ask seniors, if you really want to make the best of your senior season, journal the thing. Every interaction with your teammates, every practice, every game, every bus ride home, write down what happened and you'll be able to capture those memories in a rich way. Yeah, that's great advice. Well, I have a section of the show and if you've listened you've heard.

00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:55.840
But in a lot of ways, it's kind of that same idea.

00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:59.000
I want to get to know my guests and connect with them.

00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:19.440
So I was asked the question, if we're playing a montage of your life, what music is playing in the background as the person portraying young, middle-aged, and through the years, Roger, what song are they toiling to? Easy. It is Pride and the Name of Love with Bono just banging it out.

00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:39.360
It's funny this question either it elicits an immediate response, somebody's just got it right there or they're like I'm not really a music person. I don't know, maybe something with a good beat. That's funny because my son's ringtone on his phone when I call him is Pride in the Name of Love by U2.

00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.000
And that hits, and I'm like, good choice, son.

00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:42.960
Attaboy.

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.639
What is it about that song specifically that resonates with you?

00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:51.719
Well, about everything about U2, it's just full of passion.

00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:55.320
It's just guts on the line, here it comes.

00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:56.519
Not trying to be clever.

00:47:56.519 --> 00:47:57.679
Nope, here it is.

00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:58.800
It's straight up.

00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:05.599
That was Keith Green back in the Jesus Movement days, and his Jesus music was just reeking of passion.

00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:15.199
And I mean, here's a stoic German boy growing up in the Southern Baptist Church, kind of unfamiliar with passion, but those guys helped to draw that out of me.

00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:33.599
And so when I'm riding down the road in the car and I'm playing music, it's probably going to be something of that tenor. It's going to be Stevie Ray Vaughan at top volume or it's gonna be something else like that Clapton other things that just go POW here it is.

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:58.139
That rings the bell for me. I may have this memory completely wrong I was never a U2 fan until I believe it was the Super Bowl after 9-11. Yeah. And they played the Super Bowl and I want to say it was in St. Louis. No it was in a dome, but they had this massive drop down and they'd scroll the names of the 9-11 victims while we played.

00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:00.800
I mean, it was so powerful.

00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:03.340
And so I was kind of a fan from that moment on.

00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:07.420
So I smell what you're cooking.

00:49:07.420 --> 00:49:08.699
So you've got a new book coming out.

00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:10.219
Tell us a little bit about it.

00:49:10.219 --> 00:49:41.719
Well for about 40 years, I've been in the process of trying to make disciples. And most of the time that has been either a one-on-one or a small group process. And most of the time that has been approached from the church culture side with different exercises, different ways to go about that. But I've been living in sport culture now for about 29 years. And so the more I'm in that, I fit sport culture better than I do church culture.

00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:58.199
And I'm thinking, how can I express more in a sporty way, respectful of the sporting life, a way to develop these same disciplines, these same processes and resources of developing one's life in Christ.

00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:02.800
How can I have that happen that fits the elite sports person?

00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:28.000
That's the whole idea. As I'm writing this for guys like me to use with elite level players, that being in the US, collegiate level and pro, the rest of the world, it's like the good developing club level and pros. They're not like normal people. There are a number of things you must get to be able to even fit in their world. If you can do that, then you can do this other stuff.

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:35.079
Well, so the first two thirds of the book is about here's who these people are, and here's how you need to fit in with them so as to be heard.

00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:36.440
So that's the first two thirds of the book.

00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:40.400
And then the next part is here are these exercises you can do.

00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:44.199
I mean, putting it in athletic language, these are exercises to do.

00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:53.260
These are drills to run. These are things like that, that they go, okay, I do this just like a drill. Bingo. You just run that drill every day.

00:50:53.260 --> 00:50:58.119
And so that's what it is going to be that first part. Here's what these people are like.

00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:05.360
You have to be able to fit these things just to be heard and then here's some things that we know fit them because we've been using them for a number of years.

00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:19.000
That sounds great. So that's that's book number 15. My aim is to have it, to that point, one June, to be able to launch and have it available this fall.

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:19.960
Super.

00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:22.679
So that leads me to my last question.

00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.199
What for Roger Leip is left undone?

00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:29.519
That book is something that's like almost an opus.

00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:42.940
This is the thing I want to make sure this is done because as I was trotting the idea out at a bunch of my global friends around the world, sending them a note, this is what I'm working on, is this of interest to you?

00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:46.679
Because in most of their cases, I'm gonna give it away.

00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.159
Because in Chennai, India, they don't necessarily speak English.

00:51:50.159 --> 00:52:01.360
So I'm sending it to some of those friends, and I say, I'm gonna send you the PDF, you may translate it, I have no profit motive in this, I'd love for you to use it in your country.

00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:10.440
And so they're already going, my friend in Chennai says, all right, I'm going to translate into Hindi and two neighboring languages as well that surround Chennai. I'm like, wow.

00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:17.639
But I know my friends in Ukraine and in Poland and Russia and elsewhere want to use it. My friends in Latin America want to use it in Spanish.

00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.559
So that's one undone thing for me.

00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:44.280
I want to get this pushed out the door to where it's available for them to use because a lot of the stuff that we do in the church just does not fit sport culture very well. It's kind of chased like a bad sweater. They're going, yeah I don't get this, but if we can put the jersey on that fits, they go, yes I can run with this. Let's go. That's what I want.

00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:51.400
Awesome. So how can listeners connect? What's the best way to catch your work?

00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:59.159
Yeah, the simple things are, you could catch my Twitter handle, at Saluki Chaplain, pretty simple, at Saluki Chaplain.

00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.960
I have a blog, but it's way too wordy.

00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:09.619
The simple thing would be to email me at rlipe at nationsofcoaches.com.

00:53:09.619 --> 00:53:12.800
R-L-I-P-E at nationsofcoaches.com.

00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:17.360
I'd love to converse with coaches who wanna talk about, how do we do this team development stuff?

00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:47.000
Let's I live to do that stuff There are a lot of coaches that say I want a character coach. I just don't know how to make this happen That's what I do for a living. I can help you figure that out regardless of sport Especially if you're in college basketball men's or women's that's my job. I always walk away from a conversation with you inspired and a little bit challenged to get back after it.

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:53.000
Your energy and your enthusiasm never disappoints. So thank you so much for joining us today.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:57.000
Thank you, Toby. It's been a pleasure. I'm loving listening to your podcast.

00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:58.000
Thank you.

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:04.000
For Roger Leicht, it's been a fulfilling journey aligned with athletes and what he often refers to as the people of sport.

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:16.000
And while his earliest plans of baseball stardom and even a career in sales didn't really pan out the way he'd planned, he doesn't view those as obstacles that have blocked his way, but rather opportunities that have springboarded him to success.

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:26.639
The book is called Soul Training, Seven Keys to Coaching the Faith of Elite Sports People, and it can be found on his publisher's website, crosstrainingpublishing.com, as well as Amazon.

00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:31.340
For more info on today's episode, be sure to hit the undone podcast.com website.

00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:39.699
Simply go to undone podcast.com slash EP four zero to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Roger life.

00:54:39.699 --> 00:54:43.780
I'll be adding more and more to the site in coming months, so be sure to check out every so often.

00:54:43.780 --> 00:55:00.719
I know there are great stories out there to be told and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com, click the contact tab in the top menu, and drop me a note.

00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:27.559
Coming up, educator, researcher, and former collegiate athlete Quincy Conley will share his tale of working his way up through the corporate America ladder and into higher education. I've also got legendary University of Washington strength coach and founder of the popular Iron Game Chalk Talk podcast Ron McKefree coming soon as well as former Minnesota Timberwolf and Phoenix Sun Chris Carr so stay tuned this and more on Becoming Undone.

00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:59.079
Becoming Undone is a Nitro Hype creative production written and produced by me Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for becoming undone Contact me at undone podcast.com Follow the show on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming undone pod and follow me at Toby J Brooks Listen subscribe and please leave us a review on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts Till next time everybody keep getting better getting better.