Seinfeld & Festivus: Trauma & Personality Disorders

Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Brittany Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for
entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your
therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local
mental health provider. Many Christmases, I went to get a doll for my
son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another
man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be
another way. But out of that a new holiday was born, a festive
Us for the rest of us. Hey, everybody. For our final episode
of twenty twenty three and our holiday episode this year, we are talking about
the Festivus episode of Seinfeld. Everybody get excited. Hey, Seinfeld is one
of mine in Hannah's favorite shows. It's definitely my favorite sitcom. I don't
know if it's your favorite sitcom, Hannah, Yeah, clearly, Yeah,
It's a show I watch all the time. Hannah watches all the time.
We quote constantly to each other. I communicate fifty percent through Seinfeld gifts that
I send to her via text message. So we were really excited to shove
a Seinfeld episode into a season of Popcorn Psychology MM because as you guys know,
we don't do a lot of TV because it's just so much content,
especially a show like Signfel where there are nine seasons. But this show,
well, this episode specifically is such a particular topic. Well on it's a
holiday topic, which we love. And then Festivus is something that has almost
transcended Seinfeld into its own thing. Fun piece of trivia up top is that
a writer on Seinfeld this is actually inspired from his real life and that his
father created Festivus and made them celebrate it as kids. So, believe it
or not, this is a true story, dark, very dark indeed,
So for anyone who isn't aware, I don't know how you can enjoy this
episode without watching Seinfeld and Festivus episode just because the context that we're going to
be using throughout. But basically, Festivus is a holiday made up by one
of the main characters, fathers Frank Costanza, in a response to the hyper
consumerism of like Black Friday, uber buying stuff. It kind of actually connects
to our other holiday episode this year, Jingle All the Way, which is
also about a hot toy that people fight maliciously over. Although unlike Jingle All
the Way, this is an effective satire. Yes, well a lot of
ways. Seinfeld is a satire throughout, and so basically Festivists. The basic
conceit of it is that it's on December twenty third, and then instead of
a tree, you have a metal pole, and instead of I don't know,
playing board games and loving each other, you participate in several trials basically
designed to humiliate. So one is the feats of Strength, which is basically
wrestling for dominance, and then the other one is the airing of grievances.
The airing of grievances, which how does that go, Hannah? That is
when you say all the things that you dislike about the people and your family,
and how does Frank put it, I got a lot of problems with
you people, and you're gonna hear about it. Yeah, and then he
and then he trips up in his first example of what that is. Yeah,
only after first attacking George's boss. Yeah, George, what we're gonna
be talking about today is trauma that kind of leads into that trauma, specifically
trauma for George Costanza, the son of Frank, And then Festivus as a
holiday that really caters to someone with a narcissistic personality disorder, which is a
hot topic right now, MPD. It's a hot topic amongst the Internet who
likes to diagnose everybody with it. So firstly, I mean, it feels
fitting that the last episode of the season we talk about trauma. The unofficial
mascot of our show, Yeah, and why we wanted to talk about it
is this episode is actually one of the most textbook examples of someone having a
trauma reaction in real time. Mmm. Now I'm gonna dry really hard,
Hannah too to not pull in every single episode of scien Feld we've ever watched
while talking about this episode, but anyone who's watched Seinfeld can can discern that
the Costanzas are unwimised people, or's Hannah put it unwell, It's a family
that does a lot of yelling, does a lot of arguing, does a
lot of belittling, does a lot of emotional abuse. It's kind of the
the currency within the family and specifically in this episode though, what came to
me first when I wanted to talk about trauma was George's reaction to even Festivus
coming up. So where we see it first in this episode is that he
is talking to I think Elaine and Jerry at the deli and does Jerry Jerry
starts, Yeah, Jerry starts to bring up the idea of Festivus, and
then what do we see happen with George? He gets flustered. He asked
him not to talk about it. As Jerry continues to talk about it,
he decides that he can't say there anymore and gets up and walks out of
the coffee shop. I would argue that he runs away from the coffee shop.
Yeah, he immediately runs away. He gets so activated that he like
storms off m hm. And I could definitely see George then spending the next
four blocks just walking down the street at a hurried gate, mumbling the way
he likes to do minor yelling Larry David, which I know is the inspiration
for George. Ye. But yeah, we see someone who when we talk
about like fight or flight, freeze, fawn he is. We see a
bit of freezing, especially when his dad shows up at the poll later in
the episode. But he definitely does a lot of textbook flighting, like fleeing.
He cannot abide any he can't tolerate any discussion about Festivus from Jerry.
And then when unfortunately Kramer pulls Frank back in the mix and reintroduces Festivus to
the world, they're all terribly unkind to George with this, especially Kramer,
like they get curious about it. They're mean to him, they're teasing him.
And then Kramer goes straight to the source and seeks out Frank, who
says he hasn't celebrated Festivus in years, and then shows up with the nineteen
seventies tape recorder. Well, I forgot about Batchel just now with an audio
recording of him yelling at a quite obviously younger George to read and shaming him
for being unable to read without his glasses before starting a wrestling match. I
mean, I think one thing that's true about all the characters of Seinfeld is
that they're not particularly kind people. And we're not going to get into what's
up with all of them because definitely not going to talk about Seinfeld for nine
hours exactly. But it's something that is a commentarit, like you're saying,
Ben, is that they're all pretty self involved. You know, they will
go for the joke even if it damages relationship, Like there's a whole episode
where they don't want to get rid of a bit of saying oh hello about
a belly button, to the point that Jerry breaks up with his girlfriend to
keep the bit. Like they are people that I think the reason why the
four of them are friends with each other even though they don't particularly like each
other all the time, because I don't know if anybody else would be friends
with them. They kind of have a group of acquaintances, but they don't
really have any other tight friends. It's the four of them, and and
Jerry and George grew up together, so they also have the ease of history
where they probably just continue to stay friends because they've always been friends, and
because I feel like Jerry is a comedian would keep a friend around who is
just like a ongoing folder of bits, which you could argue that's what George
is, and that's what the costanzas are. Yeah, but yeah, there's
no real thought process by anybody on the show about taking George's trauma seriously because
they none of them take each other seriously. They don't take anybody's pain seriously.
They are one percent out for their own gain or perspective at all times,
and it is, you know, it makes for a hilarious show,
but it's definitely a very very unkind thing to do if someone starts expressing strong
reactions about their family of origin, to force them to dig into it and
then reactivate all of the old stuff by seeking out the source itself. And
it's not like that's an uh foreign thing for people to do. Sometimes people
will seek out the source and that is a tragic mistake. We're just not
taking people's trauma seriously. I think that's very common. I think when we
see people who are bucking nowadays about like wokeness and shit like that, it's
because they want to be able to tease the way that Jerry and them tease
each other, which is I don't want to have to take anything you're going
through seriously and yeah, and so it doesn't occur to them that even when
George runs off in distress that I don't think anyone felt bad. I don't
think Jerry was ruminating on that after the fact, they were laughing. They
were laughing. And then when he ran out of the when he ran out,
yeah, and then when Frank shows up later with the poll at their
safe space, like I would argue that the coffee spot is George's safe space
or one of his space safe spaces, especially certainly away from his parents.
Oh yeah, because aren't they in like Queen's m h. Yeah, so
it's kind of his distance there from them. But to show up in a
public place, dragging that pole, making a scene in front of his friends
as an adult, playing a taped recording of a previous humiliation, as if
it's no big deal. And then you see, yeah, George have his
trauma reaction again where he kind of regresses and then he literally runs off.
Yep, George is quite obviously mortified at this. He's showing every sign of
someone who is avoiding and shutting down and getting agitated, aggravated, anxious,
and then he reaches a point where he's quite obviously dissociating, which is when
he's sitting at the table, he is obviously finding his shut down part because
he has to sit in with his boss. Oh, the dinner. Later,
the dinner, Yes, he has to sit next to his boss as
his father goes into this complete diatribe of releasing all of George's private thoughts about
work right at the boss. Well, I think that says also so much
about well, I'm gonna get ahead of myself. But one I think what's
also interesting about George's presentation is how he seems younger too. And I think
that's something that's so true when you've gone through trauma, is you can progress
in the moment, but also you can kind of have a bit of a
rested development, which I think is true for George. He never really grows
up maturity wise and impulse control wise and things like that. And I think
a classic example of that is bringing his boss to this dinner not even thinking
about that he is exposing himself and his boss to information and behaviors that actually
won't benefit his goal, which is just to get out of trouble. No,
he had to me is so young, but he he he had to
because he lied about the Human Fund and he had to show him that it
was because of this festivus that he doesn't really celebrate Christmas. Yeah, I
need a great Festivus, but I don't think. I think he knows exactly
what he's getting his boss into, and I think he knows that there's nothing
else that can be done, which is why he's dissociating. His dissociation exists
for us to survive between a rock and a hard place. Does George present
young often? Yes, but this isn't one of those times where he's dealing
with like bad decision making. George is in a bad situation because yet again
George made a horrible decision and damn if those consequences don't come around. Murphy's
Law is a bitch around the holidays, folks, Every lie you decide to
tell has a way of coming back on you, Like was he presenting young?
And like Jerry even looking at him like he's being absurd that he didn't
get an equal value Christmas gift back from somebody. So George then decides to
make up his own charity so he doesn't have to pay other people money and
just collect gifts and once the boss catches him, George had no escape.
Yeah, and just his short sightedness, that's what I think. That's what
I meant, more like the shorts the short sightedness of also coming up with
the most basic name, like he couldn't do like the he couldn't even say
Human Foundation, which sounds more legit than the Human Fund, Like he had
no the stupidity of making one up that sounds so obvious. Yeah, and
then and doing it just so he doesn't have to buy gifts for everyone that
he can profit off his gift ratio this year as opposed to giving somebody Yankees
tickets and getting back a donation. Mm hmm. Yeah, but yeah,
And I think we also see this progression in that because Frank tries to wrestle,
who does Spring try to wrestle? First Kramer Kramer Kramer. But then
Kramer's like, no thanks, which is also so selfish, right that Kramer
digs up this big traumatic thing for George, and then he immediately loses interest
and like leaves George to suffer literally because doesn't George say, like when Kramer
says no thanks, well, who's going to do the feats of strength,
as if George knows that it'll be him, No, the boss suggests George,
Oh, I think it should be George, which is very true.
And I think what feels interesting is I don't get the vibe from George that
he thinks he could fight against that or like that. It like if his
dad decides he's going to do the feats of strength, he's going to have
to do the feats of strength with his dad. And I think that says
also a lot about how we can regress when we are around the person who
traumatize us as a kid and who like also continues to perpetuate those abusive behaviors
on us, which as we see with all the scenes with Frank and with
Frank and George, that Frank does not stop now that George is an adult.
There's still a lot of like humiliation and emotional abuse and stuff and yelling,
and so the fact that at no point do we see like I don't
think we would have seen George say I'm not interested in wrestling you. I
feel like George would have begrudgingly taken his suit jacket off and wrestled his dad
in front of his boss. Yeah, which I think also says so much.
When people from the outside look in on like traumatic family systems, a
lot of times you'll hear people say, well, why don't they just leave?
Why do they put up with that? Why did they let that happen?
So I think it's important to just point out that if you've gone through
trauma, especially as a kid, and if you're still in touch with and
seeing the people who abused you or perpetuated abuse upon you, you can very
easily still fall into those patterns of behavior. And that part of that is
kind of what you bring up earlier, Ben, which is dissociating, right,
is like falling into the part of you that played that role within your
family. Yes, so George continuing to be submissive to his dad in a
lot of ways makes sense. Yeah, well George has to fawn here.
This is an entire fawning response because George is so screwed that Krueger caught him
in a lie. He may have had a different response had he not been
actually so stuck. He may not have had to regress into that child part
at dinner with his parents. He may have behaved how he normally does,
which is arguably more like a nineteen year old who's visiting home after college,
but not like this version of himself where he's kind of like quiet and trying
to be invisible. Yeah, and his like posture too, like curled over
his face. Yeah, but Krueger is making him do this as as his
penance. Kruger is not unaware of what's going on. This is penance,
so Krueger doesn't have to fire him. And it seems to be amusing him
that George is actually telling the truth. But the truth that he's telling is
still convenient. Yeah, he would never have brought up Festivus had it not
been for getting caught lying. Oh yeah, Well, Krueger is like the
most apathetic person I've ever seen on screen, So I'm not shocked that he
might just be happy of the thrill of it all, because he seems like
someone who's so bored of his life that this probably the most exciting thing that's
happened him in a while. Maybe, Yeah, And so everything, Yeah,
and he's very whatever about literally everything. We're watching that watching that response
from George, I think you see just a range of range of the responses.
What we don't see is any evidence of intrusive thoughts or memories, but
once they get triggered, his reactions are severe. Oh yeah, he can't
tolerate it at all. Well, at least in the first two situations,
he can't tolerate so much that he flees. And then when he's in a
situation where the consequences don't allow, well, the situation doesn't allow fleeing.
Yeah, he fonts, which we've talked about as if you feel like you
can't fight or flight, you will fawn or freeze. So we see more
of that from him. But yeah, it was a really I'm sure very
unintentional on the Seinfold writers to create such a perfect example and succinct example of
trauma responses. So we'll take a break here and be right back. So
festive as the holiday of someone with narcissistic personality disorder, which I'm going to
go on the limb and say Frank Costanza has. Even though everybody in the
show, like we've talked about many times of other things, everyone in the
show is a cartoon pretty much, so we have to keep that in mind
when thinking about potential diagnoses. So why are we thinking NPD for Frank?
What are we seeing that feels nars, truly narcissistic, not armchair psychologists.
Narcissistic Frank has no regard for other people's feelings, situations, only how they
reflect upon him. M especially with how he views George. When he viewsed
George as a disappointment and a poor reflection upon him, he gets abusive quickly.
M. Yeah, even that video that, even that tape that he
plays the recording of the past Festivus. Getting mad at your son for eating
glasses feels very on the NPD spectrum because what he's really mad at is he
is a son that has weak eyes and therefore is weak, and that is
an insult upon him. A man who doesn't eat glasses has perfect eagle eyes
is probably how he would describe himself if he had to. Yes, well,
Frank always describes himself as being the best without any evidence. Right.
That's a critical component of They usually demand to have adoration or adulations dumped upon
them without necessarily anything to back them up other than their own thought process like
I'm the best, therefore you should treat me like I'm the best. And
they have no tolerance for any countering information and tend to get angry and spiteful.
When presented with such yeah, kind of like a guest on yeah.
To compare the two, which, now that we're talking about it, it
starts to make more sense to me why Kramer and Frank end up as a
duo a lot of the times, because Kramer does treat Frank with a lot
of that adulation. Like every Bonker's idea Frank has come up with, Kramer
gets invested in, like the bro'sier or whatever they call it, what do
they call it, the Mansier or the bro the bro the bro not the
Mansier, and like the Festivus thing, like Kramer will go to Frank and
really pump him up, like even like if this one with the invest of
us, He's like, Wow, that's your genius, Frank. You always
have such good ideas, which also makes sense then why Frank will drop everything
and go to Kramer's bagel shop to talk to him about Festivus, even though
I don't think he would necessarily do that for George. I think Kramer is
more what Frank would want out of George, which is a son who acts
like his shit doesn't stick. Mm hm, Well that's what Kramer does eternally,
is he just validates every idea and like plays up to it. He's
a crony. Yeah to Frank. Basically, he just he's like everybody's cheerleader
and thinks every idea will work. And Frank, being so narcissistic that he
can't possibly fathom any universe where his ideas don't work, drinks it up.
Yeah, and then it fuels him to launch into whatever bad idea of full
force, whereas Kramer will lose interest and get himself involved in the next most
ridiculous thing that comes across his way because he's entirely scattered and impulsive. Tip
the idea of putting Kramer on some atter all, you know what I mean,
Yeah, get him that brain focused. I mean, he'd probably lose
all of his sparkle, but at what cost? Well, even thinking about
the origin of Festivus right that, Frank is telling a story about how he
gets into a physical altercation because he lets his feelings overwhelm him and he engages
in pretty shitty behavior, and instead of being introspective about that and taking any
ownership of the fact that he would beat the shit out another person for a
doll, he decides it's not my it's I'm not the one that's wrong.
It's the entire holiday of Christmas and everything about it, and I'm going to
start a whole new holiday and I get to decide every aspect of it and
suckle the joy out of it simultaneously, with no regard about how that would
make his tiny sun feel because George must be pretty little at that time.
He's young enough, doll yeah, and so he decides to steal. But
he basically steals Christmas from George and replaces it, like I said, with
a holiday that is totally based on humiliation and centering Frank. Because even in
the festiv a celebration we see at the second half of the episode, I
don't hear anybody else getting to air grievances or to do feats of strength like
the feeling I was getting, because we only get brief snippets of what it's
like. Is that Frank gets to use this holiday, gets to weaponize it
to verbally humiliate George and probably a style as well, and then to physically
dominate them. And is there anything more narcissistic than an adult man who is
so threatened by his son, by his child, that he feels the need
to physically dominate him on a holiday, So you're not just taking away Christmas,
but you're replacing it with this. Yeah. Well, the only way
he can accept his son as a man is his son can prove that he
is better. But if he proves it, it's better Frank will lose his
mind. Yeah, which is the narcissistic trap. Of course, Frank knows
he can't, so therefore he gets to maintain his dominance by proposing a feat
of strength that George is not going to win. And the fact that he
records the airing of grievances and has held onto them for it's got to be
twenty twenty five years at least, is so foul. Like that's probably one
of the darker things about this episode. He keeps proof of his abuse.
And then it makes me curious, like what does he use those tapes for?
Does he bring them out on random situations in which he wants to further
humiliate George and like put him in his place? Are there ones for Estella
as well that he also utilizes? Like that's so grim to think that he
just collects these things for what purpose other than to furtherly abuse and humiliate trophies.
Brittany trophies. It's so dark. Yeah, and I bet that they
don't. I really bet that they don't get to do airing of grievances onto
him. Yeah, I'm sure they don't. It really feels like Frank just
stands up at the end of the table and goes around the table. That's
the holiday. Yeah, I don't think anybody else remotely gets a chance.
And I think George will just seek to escape as soon as the abuse is
done, as soon as the verbal abuse, and then he seeks to run
away, and Estelle probably just yells at him. She probably yells stop that
you're making George feel bad. She probably just does that for like twenty minutes.
But that doesn't really do anything to like actually stop Georgia of that situation
because they don't have to participate. M hm. They don't have to sit
down on the twenty third and or Estelle doesn't. But I mean, this
is like they must have gotten married in like the sixties, you know what
I mean, Like they are of a time in which someone like a Stelle.
Probably that's not an option to think that we could fifties George and Jerry
would have been born in the sixties. That's true m hm at least yeah,
no, that's correct. That comes up in a high school episode.
Oh yeah, Hannah's our resident Seinfeld expert. I mean, I will say,
we do see a stell try to be assertive, like I said,
like she does yell, and every once in a while she quote unquote stands
up for George by trying to sort of get between him and Frank. But
then it just evolves into a huge screaming match that either like you said earlier,
Ben, George participates in, or he shuts down or he leaves,
or he tries to get away from. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and I think the strongest reaction from him honestly comes when like he hears the
sound of that pole being dragged on the crown. Yeah, that is haunting,
Like that's probably he probably has nightmares. Oh you know the sound guy,
Like the sound guy added a sound to that that he found of like
absolutely just like dragging a metal pole across like a blacktop, which curries like
its own traumatic impressions by itself. But that watching George's entire body freeze and
go no, no, oh no, is that's not the fest of his
full please, So where I will insert some I don't know if I want
to say empathy with Frank or just to put some understanding under this is like
when you have NPD, genuinely you really struggle with empathy because you are so
like chronically self centered and so Frank, it would be really hard to for
Frank to tap it to the empathetic part of him that really understands what he's
doing instead of how what he's doing feeds him and his ego and his insecure
sense of self tremendously. And then Estelle in this episode at least, is
showing herself to be pretty dependent, so there's no there's no valuation of George
strong enough with anything that will shift Frank's mindset away. Yeah, and then
the downside of all, like all of the people being there, including the
extraneous people that Kramer brings to this dinner, is that Frank now has an
audience. So there's absolutely zero chance that he's going to imply or deploy any
empathic parts for George or perceive anything, because now George's shameful reaction is embarrassing
him because George is now showing himself as a weak man. And this is
also yeah, and this is also where like the lack of emotional intelligence comes
in on Frank's part, which is not understanding how his then reaction to George's
behavior is the culprit of that behavior, that you're not building him out of
this hole by humiliating him, by shaming him publicly in front of all of
his friends and these strangers and his boss, that there's no part of his
dad of Frank that is taking into consideration. Oh, my son's boss is
here, I should be on my best behavior, or I shouldn't jeopardize my
son's job, And instead he goes right to jeopardizing him. I mean,
like the what he does with Krueger, like that could very easily destroy George's
career at that company. I mean, I mean, what a career is
it? Though? Really well, Georgie has a new career every episode.
But yeah, yeah, go aheah, absolutely yeah. I don't think.
I don't think that Frank thinks about anybody besides himself. I don't think that
he has any awareness or any need to think about anyone besides himself. And
I think that and he's shown in the show over time to be a very
solitary character, like we don't ever see him in a style with friends.
We don't ever see We don't ever see them happy together even I would really
say when they're out and about and that he is he just never he doesn't
need to. He just doesn't think about anybody else but himself. Mm hmm.
Yeah, because they try to make friends with the Seinfelds. And that's
a whole plot point, right, is the Seinfelds not liking them, And
they must have known the Seinfelds for like thirty years if their kids have been
friends since elementary school. Yeah, Like, they've known the Seinfelds forever,
and it's not until their kids are in their thirties that they're like, do
they not like us? And then being mad about it? Right, yes,
and then they move to Doubleka Vista, and then that's a shit show
just to prove that the Seinfelds are not better than them. Yeah, So
it continues to be like, you're totally right in that they don't have any
friends, and when you see them try to make friends, it devolves super
quickly because someone like Frank can't get out of their own way. Yeah.
And then because a lot of marriages from that time, especially in healthy ones
like Frank and Estelle's that you get kind of en meshed too, that still
kind of just goes along with whatever Frank's doing, even though she's screaming her
opposition the whole time. Yes, I don't think she says anything in the
episode besides the taped version of her yelling and then Dinner's ready. Mm hmmm,
I don't think she says anything else. Yeah, she's completely dependent on
Frank's reactions. M h And yeah, it's really sad for George frankly,
but yeah, also looking at who George has surrounded himself with this entire episode,
Elaine's entire subplot is that she's using this dude to get that subcard get
her twenty three. She needs that free sub or I want that free sub
and she has right no concern whatsoever that this like dude's feelings may be hurt
that she gave him a fake number and goes through all this rigmarole just to
get that free sub. And I mean also, like his best friend is
Jerry someone who dehumanizes every woman he dates to a trait right, and even
the w he talks about the girl he's currently dating is abhorrent. Yeah,
I mean he literally refers to her as a batman villain. Good job,
then there you go. I mean they bring it up. I mean,
good job for remembering. Or maybe it's George. I think it's George.
It says that, Yeah, he says that, and then if that helps
you, right. But Jerry is also incredibly narcissistic and looks at especially the
women he dates, his objects and is always evaluating them, always basing how
they make him look, basically, look how they make him feel, what
he can get out of them, like having sex with that Russian gymnast just
to see if that makes the sex better, and then bemoaning that he has
to keep dating her because he'll look like a creep if he doesn't, not
knowing that woman's name that he dates. I mean we could go on and
on, Yeah, we could. Yeah. And the amount of narcissism in
this show is it's a lot. It's just it's unqualifiable other than to say
it's every minute of every episode. Yeah, with every character. And that's
why I think they're like, except Kramer, maybe their child, if you
will. The Seinfeld's child is It's always Sunny in Philadelphia, which is also
a show of four people five if you include Danny DeVito also named Frank,
who are just also totally narcissistic, total users. Everything you know goes back
to them, including how they treat each other. So anything else they want
to say about that before we go to a break, Nope, all right,
cool, Okay, So the final thing we wanted to talk about is
George Costanza in personality disorders. So one thing I wanted to highlight that I
don't think a lot of people who are doing these sort of informal diagnosing on
the internet, is that a lot of people who have personality disorders it comes
out of having really bad trauma or just trauma in general. There's not a
lot of people who have personality disorders who have not experienced trauma. And I
just want to say that because a lot of the way that narcissistic personalities talked
about now and how borderline has definitely been talked about, is as if you're
like a bad seed, that you're just born as this like huge evil monster
dickhead yep, and just a bad person. And the reason why you aren't
diagnosed until you're eighteen is one a lot of these traits are stuff you exhibit
as a kid developmentally, and then also two, because a lot of it
is like nurture, like things you experienced growing up. And also, if
you are raised by a parent who has a personality disorder, you are also
more inclined to develop a personality disorder because it's kind of a combination of nature
and nurture, genetic predisposition, and also a lot of learned behaviors. So
I think George is kind of a classic example of someone who has potentially their
own personality disorder, but definitely personality disorder tendencies. And when you work with
someone like George, it's good to piece out how much of this is related
to their trauma, how much of this is genuine a personality disort of diagnosis,
and how much of it has learned behavior from their family, and how
much of it is all three? Yeah, and Frank and George is all
three Because as we've talked about, I mean, I'm sure you could like
list this off, Hannah. How many behaviors does George demonstrate that our personal
disorder behaviors that is a direct reflection of his parents and what they've modeled all
of them all of Yeah, I mean it's I mean, it would be
impossible for it not to be for him, because you know, a lot
of what we talk about with a lot about a lot of what I talk
with clients about is how while you're growing up may not be the source of
all of your problems, it certainly has a hell of an impact considering the
first definitely contributing factor to being to being in a household with people for the
first eighteen years of your life. At least, there was discussion of removing
borderline personality disorder from the last dsm OH and replacing it with some kind of
reaction to prolonged trauma, interesting because it has been shown in research it almost
never exists without chronic trauma. People need to stop saying everybody's ex boyfriend,
everybody's ex girlfriend, everybody's ex whatever, everybody's parent is narcissistic or borderline or
histrionic, and assigning some kind of issue to them that isn't necessarily reflective of
the reality that they lived. It's just everybody's an asshole and somebody hurt me,
so they must be this, And it's unfair to assign all those things
without taking into account what that person's life might have been like. Even as
we see this like this show pokes fun at it. Yeah, this show
makes it funny for us to kind of relive caricatures of our parents. And
it's funny because it's true that people's family members can be like this. But
recognizing how careless people are being with these languages that are just mad that they
got hurt by somebody, which is fair, but assigning that oftentimes a teenager
college relationship may have been a narcissistic personality disorder is a bit much. Yeah,
And one thing I just want to also say is that someone having one
of these personality disorders does not excuse them from mistreating other people. So me
saying all that and asking people to access more empathy around these diagnoses doesn't mean
that it's a free for all pass for people any diagnosis to mistreat, abuse,
YadA, YadA, somebody else. I think it's more like just we
have to have a more like well rounded idea of these diagnoses specifically, and
that people who struggle with them are not having a good time. George is
not having a good time. Is miserable. He's one of the most miserable
people I think on TV, and he also doesn't seem to quite understand how
to get himself out of his misery. Yeah. Yeah, because going back
to the idea of like how having person a disorder is a combination of like
trauma and all these other things. And we talked about this a lot in
our Fantastic Mister Fox episode, which is another episode about like a dad who
has these NPD traits and then how it impacts his child. Is when you
have a parent who's narcissistic, they every like we've talked about, every road
goes back to them, including their children. So when you are someone like
George, you are not raised and nurtured to have a strong sense of self.
Yeah, because that's not your purpose. Your purpose is to be one
of your dad's limbs or maybe a trophy he can wear around his neck.
Right. You are not encouraged or nurtured to be a independent, thriving,
confident person. That's not your function for a parent who struggles with narcissistic traits.
So it makes sense then that you would grow up and you're way more
likely to have a personal disorder because a central factor of especially cluster B personality
disorders is having a really difficult time finding a sense of self if you have
one at all. And I think something that's really true if you watch all
of Seinfeld, is that George does not know who George is. He spends
the whole show trying on versions of George and seeing if they fit even him.
Like getting engaged to Susan. Is him doing that because he thinks George
Jerry's gonna do it, right, Wasn't that part of it? Is they
both thought they were gonna get married. Absolutely, So he doesn't even do
it because it's something he wants, and then he just he just commits to
it because he doesn't know how to get out of it. Although I think
that was one of the worst plotlines of the whole show and worst characters.
Susan, Yeah, you can't introduce a sane person into that friend group.
It's just not gonna work because it's not going to make sense. But no,
yet, George, George does not know who George is at all.
He has a whole episode where he tries to be the opposite of George to
see if that works, and it does a little bit kind of, but
that's still him like a being playing a part, not actually being himself,
which people can't do. People try all the time to do that to maintain
a face of no, I can just be this or I can be that,
And like we see with George, Unfortunately for anyone who thinks that's a
real solution, it is a lot of energy to run a party. It's
a lot of energy to run fractured components, even idealized or acting as if.
It's a lot of energy. And it's kind of like dungeons and dragons.
You'd have to be casting a concentration spell. And if you get hit
with anything or stressed out in the real world, going to get harder and
harder, and eventually you're going to lose your ability to concentrate on running this
fake version of yourself and the mask will drop. No. But even like
George wearing those hiking boots until they can't pull it off anymore, George wearing
that giant hat for a while to try to seem taller, Like George does
all these things to try to be a version of himself. And I think
that does create like like pathological lying, you know what I mean, Like
when he because he doesn't know who his authentic self is, it makes sense
then why he feels comfortable lying. He feels really comfortable bullshitting, Like I
could even argue that the human fund is just a byproduct of a person who
has been playing pretend his whole life to try to get through life. George
is surviving, he's not thriving. Yeah, George cannot thrive. Yeah,
you cannot survive and thrive at the same time. Yeah, can't. Sometimes
people try to make it seem like the only pathway to success is to hit
the point that you have to do it to the level of surviving to thrive,
But it doesn't work that way. Those people don't start thriving until they've
found ways to make it work. Now, hitting survival till you find motivation
to make it work. I'll accept the argument for that, But most of
the time, what happens when people try that is they get so stressed out
that they fail repeatedly. Kind of like our dear friend George here. Yeah.
Yeah, they don't stop till they get caught as well. Well,
they kind of like Elaine. You see that the narcissistic component or survival component,
depending on which it is like forces people to feel it's so intolerable to
get caught anymore. Probably for whatever reason makes it feel unsafe to get caught
that they will go to extreme lengths to maintain the lie and save face rather
than come clean with it, like, look at all of the ridiculous things
Elaine does. Is mostly Elaine in this episode that does the ridiculous things,
but it varies from episode to episode which character is doing it is being the
most saany, right, Elaine, in order to get a free sandwich,
is trying to get back a card. She gave a fake number to a
man on that She callously went into the party knowing she was going to give
a fake number to people, just because he's wearing a den of vest.
Listen. I will here's what I will say though. I will say that
it makes sense to be as a woman, especially back in those days when
men would ask for your number like that, that you probably had to have
a fake number on deck because you can't just not give a man on your
number. So I don't blame her for giving out a random number. I
will say her determined Yeah, her determination to get the subcard. Though,
is her an ability to take an out about the sun, Yeah, that's
just her being the zany b plot. Well yeah, but that's the whole
component of personality disorders that's rooted in trauma that one of the things that is
important, Like, sure, women have had to have fake numbers and fake
contact information for eternity and deserve protection from men's creepy bullshit, But Elaine's strategies
for dealing with things are so bananas that they're all rooted in her entertainment and
not necessarily her self protection. And then for her to go seek this man
out and go to the lengths that she does, even ignoring like this man
at the bagel shop is willing to give her a free sandwich just to stop
her pattern of ridiculousness that she's so determined she doesn't care if she embarrassed or
hurt this man's feelings that she gave a fake number two. No, yeah,
and it's not like he went above an beyond being creepy. He was
just like he was wearing a den of vest. So she decided he's creepy,
which may or may not be fair, but definitely fair rough stuff.
He didn't push her, He just said like, hey, maybe we should
go on sometime. Yeah, you're not wrong, and you're not wrong.
You know when men get put like the dudes at the betting track, extremely
creepy. That was scary that would be a scary. And then the men
behind her that are like all of them all they're listening to see what her
number is. Absolutely need a fake number for that situation. Yeah, I
would just give them Jerry's number. Well that's fair, but she instead gives
them the shops number, and then just in case he calls the betting place,
to then call there like so she can meet up with him to get
her card back. I mean, it's some of the real vandal at industry
stuff. Yeah it is, Yeah, it's I mean. And then but
it's countless disregard for how she may have made this man feel and then expecting
him to just give her what she wants. Yeah. Absolutely. One thing
I didn't want to make sure to mention though with George specifically, is that
in my mind, he strikes me more as histrionic. And I did a
quick google to see if my intuitive therapeutic intuition was correct on this. So
just for a little psycho education, So this is from an article from very
Well Health, just kind of saying the differences between HPD so histrionic personal disorder
and NPD is in histrionic you will seek attention regardless of type whereas NPD it
has to be like positive feedback, admiration. I would say something that does
feel really true to me about George is he likes attention. I don't think
he really cares if it's good attention or bad attention. Definitely, it does
a lot of embarrassing stuff to himself. He was in the pool. He
was in the pool. But even I can't think of a good example right
now unless you have one, Hannah, But just that he does so many
us anythings just to get women to like him, to get attention, even
if they don't really like him, or even if it embarrasses him or looks
bad. I mean, if there's a whole episode about how he can't handle
Jerry's girlfriend not liking him, that he becomes obsessed with her and ignores the
woman who is clearly into him to pursue a woman who hates his guts.
Yeah, so I think there's an episode where he plays the bad boy,
where he's the bad boy, and he plays the bad boy in the situation.
There's an episode where he goes up against all the people in the building
to get this apartment to say how as Ray tells his whole trauma story,
his life story of how terrible his life has been. Yeah, he I
mean, the list goes on and on with George. I think I agree
that he's historyana. I think that it's a part for him. I think
it's a part of learned behavior and a part of and a part of just
a response to growing up in the home that he grew up in. But
I want to hear more about what you specifically picked out. It's only a
few things. So willing to be viewed as fragile or dependent to get attention
absolutely, which we definitely aligns with George, and that's in contradiction to an
inflated sense of self because I don't think he has that. He would probably
be the first person to say that he is like a piece of garbage.
He definitely would. Yeah, So that's where he feels more hystrionic to me.
Also displays rapidly shifting and shallow expressions of emotions, which to me is
very George. He vacillates between a lot of feelings. He's very dramatic and
over the top, which is also what his family's like. You can make
an argument that, well, when people grow up in loud households, the
only way you can be heard if you're heard at all, is to also
be loud, so you could, Like I said, it goes back to
this idea. When you work with someone like George, you have to take
all these things into consideration, Like is he that over the top because his
parents were over the top and the only way you could be heard in your
household was to be over the top, which isn't as common in small families
like his where there's only one kid. You see that more, at least
I've seen that more when I've worked with families that are pretty a lot bigger.
Yeah, and then use the sexuality to gain attention. I don't know
you really see that with George other than he will use attention to get sex
from have you seen his painting? Oh? His painting. That is also
the assumption that those sexy photos are for him. That's where he does have
like that sort of like narcissistic flavor. Yeah, a little bit. He
will jump to a conclusion. Yeah, he loves cold jump me to conclusions.
Mm hmm, he really does. But yeah, but other borderline things
is well, I mean it's also hard because a lot of things are found
to be true, like assuming that every one not borderline personality disorder. Is
what I mean is like assuming that everyone at that foundation board is talking about
him when he leaves the room, then he leaves that suitcase so that he
can record them talking about him. Like he is very up his own ass
in a lot of ways. Like he does have also that sort of like
paranoia, which I do see when I work with people of personality disorders.
I think what's interesting to point out with that is when we hear the word
paranoia, I think we typically think of it more in the context of like
psychosis, like assuming people are following me or someone's calling my house. And
when I have seen it in clients that I work with the personality disorders,
it's more like a softer kind of paranoia of like everyone is talking about me
behind my back, nobody likes me. You know. It's a subtler version
of paranoia that people don't really assign as paranoia, But that is a trait
that when you do like personality disorder assessments, paranoia is one of the traits
that gets measured. But yeah, he has that too, Like he's got
a flavor of a few cluster bees going on. I could argue we could
argue that the human fun thing is a bit antisocial. You know, the
way he talks about being a philanthropist is a little, I mean a little
off, like I want people to get on their knees and beg for my
help and then and then they'll o me big time. That's why he's like
of being a philanthropist. Yeah, that would be more narcissistic. Yeah,
but so he does show traits that kind of travel through these different cluster be
diagnoses. And also, like I said, a part of me is curious
just how he's so impulsive he makes these choices. Like you said earlier,
Hannah, he's so shortsighted. Like all the things that he does over the
course of the show, so many of them are just like how can I
feel good right now? Or how can I get out of this situation and
right now, which you could argue too, is if you grow up in
a traumatic household where there's constant punishment and there's no room for forgiveness. Of
course, you could argue that his short sight and this is also a trauma
reaction. He's just trying not to be in trouble, which is very young
but also would make sense. It always makes sense. Human beings have a
basic instinct to avoid pain. All animals do, and contrary to what people
think about traumatized reactions, is that we don't respond to pain any differently.
If it's physical pain or emotional pain, the same instinct to get out of
it applies, and the same basic reactions to escape, avoid, delay,
or fight that pain show up. And that doesn't matter at all whether it's
physical pain or emotional pain, it perceived or real, it doesn't matter.
If pain is there, the nervous system's going to respond to defeat it one
way or another. Period. So understanding that just because someone's not going to
likely be dragged across saw blades doesn't mean you're not going to get a really
strong reaction from them if they believe they're going to get hurt, and that
will be a impulsive decision if the threat is strong enough. Whenever it crosses
a certain threshold, the ability to logically respond decreases, and the more the
limits system takes over, the more we get a animalistic response. It's just
the way things are, and unfortunately in society we teach this mind over matter
mentality as if it's true, and it's only true if you're calm. If
you are not calm, if you perceive threat, the threat, your system
that is designed to defeat threats, whether you were paying attention or ready for
one or not, kicks on, and it is involuntary. Yeah. So
George compulsively doing all these things almost always is based off him perceiving a threat
and that the consequences are not necessarily intolerable, but are to be avoided at
all costs. About how you're creating a potential worse consequence, because that's part
of him being in survival, right, He's just thinking of the threat currently
in front of him. Yeah, not the threat three doors down, that
would be a train reaction from this choice. I think he does think about
that. I think George, like most people, thinks about and magnifies it.
George spends a lot of time sitting and like talking about how this will
become this, and this will become that, and that'll become that. A
lot of those scenes in the show where George is continually ramping himself up and
his voice gets higher, are George doing internal time traveling as I like to
call it, where he is going into past and future simultaneously mining for resources
in his past, probably because of Frank and then launching into what could go
wrong now on how that'll build into whatever fantasy he's concocted, And it's usually
ten thousand of them simultaneously. And the downside of our body being so apt
and imagination and the ability to go into the matrix and view all these things
is that you have neurological capability of doing this. But your neurology, meaning
nerves, is all wired to one body, so you perceive ten thousand realities,
all of them in which you're in conditions of danger to varying degrees.
Well, guess what your nervous system is going to be sending signals to your
body to do. I guess I'm more mean that he gets hooked into the
human fun thing. He does not think about the fact that at some point
somebody the accountant is going to check into that and find out that it's bullshit.
Right like that he does these things I think out of anxiety. He
can definitely project forward and like what if and catastrophize and stuff, But in
these things where he gets caught in the moment and could potentially get in trouble
or if there's like a big reward. He seems to have trouble thinking ahead.
Well, they're taking to like the logical conclusion. I mean that's part
of the shenanigans that is the show, right, just like this are built
on shenanigans. But like even like the play now thing, like he does
so much stuff in the moment just because he wants to keep getting what he's
getting or not getting what he could get consequence wise, not thinking about the
long term consequences or even like the consequences to consequences away. Well that's what
I was responding to. Yeah, that's a separate argument though. That's like
you're talking about threat response versus trying to fill a need if your child self
is engaged, Like if you find a deficit, it's a deficit trying to
fill a hole from childhood George not getting attention and being subject to a narcissistic
father, there's likely a great deal of needs not being met for his child
self when that kid's online, like Christmas would be a particular trigger for that.
An old need shows up, like he's expecting to get presents and kind
of come out ahead, which is very childish, like kids think Christmas is
about getting gifts, adults know it's about being together and giving gifts that make
other people happy. Yeah, and that he has this progressive behavior with that,
and then also just not wanting to get in trouble right right, But
George doesn't care about getting in trouble until he gets in trouble, Like he's
not giving out the human fun things. Isn't about avoiding trouble. That's about
him pulling one over and coming out ahead and winning for once. That's selfishness
and short sight. I you know, accept the child argument, but the
the survival part of it doesn't kick in until Krueger catches him and then he
like drops his head and gives the check back. But prior to that,
he's thinking about starting his own charity. Is he shortsighted? Yes? Is
that under threat? I don't think so, because he's ignoring Jerry's warnings that
he could get caught. Yeah, it's not until he actually gets caught that
we see him realize how between a rock and a hard place he is,
and that now he has to submit and put his tail between his legs and
there's no coming back. In the episode for George, I don't know that
he says another word other than ugh, Yeah, I think you're right.
So is there anything else we want to say about George specifically before we take
a break? All right, So we're going to skip treatment this episode one
because this is sort of a mini Christmas episode, and then two because I
don't know. We kind of collectively don't know if anyone on this show would
go to treatment or would comply with treatment, because when you are coming from
an ecocentric narcissistic stance, treatment is really difficult. Some professionals would argue it's
impossible. I don't ever want to say it's impossible for someone to engage in
therapy and to progress. I always have to leave at least a small window
open for that. But for someone, I mean everyone on the show does
not really. They can sort of name what's quote unquote wrong with them at
times, but they really don't seem to have a big, actual, big
problem with who they are and how they're engaging in the world. They don't
take any real ownership of themselves and therefore why would they change. Well,
and even in the last episode when they get busted for the goods like failing
to abide by the Good Samaritan Law, they still don't take accountability. Yeah,
I think for me, like speaking for myself in those discussions, it's
not a maybe. I don't think these characters as we saw them for nine
seasons of this show would remotely benefit from therapy as they've been shown. Yeah,
I mean Jerry doesn't even think he has feelings. Remember the episode where
he cries. He doesn't even know what's happening. What is the salty discharge?
What is this salty discharge coming out of my eyes? He's like,
I think I'm having feelings or whatever he says. Yeah, but yeah,
they're not in touch with that stuff that you need to fully engage in therapy.
No, I think the only person who and I can't remember her name,
but the the people who need group therapy or the people who've dated Jerry.
Oh yeah, I mean there's many names for those women. All the
people in the last episode of the show could do a support group about how
they have been collectively harmed by the people on the show, by the main
characters. Yeah, so I guess we will go to final thoughts then,
which feels weird to say because final thoughts about Seinfeld is like, Babe,
either you like Seinfeld or you're not cool. I don't know what else tell
you, Like, that's the final thought. I mean, I love it.
I think it's about to say it just to be spicy. I think
it's way better than Friends. But I will concede that you can be a
Friends person or a Seinfeld person. I don't know a lot of people that
are both. I'm a Seinfeld girl. I love Seinfeld. I'll watch her
forever. It makes me TIHI every time I watch it. It's one of
my favorite things. I mean, this episode is an all time classic of
TV. I think it's a masterpiece in writing and performance, and I love
the way they allow the consequences of their actions to come for them in this
last season in the show, where the early seasons didn't kind of go that
way, but this last season, the real theme of it was like building
up to like the consequences of your actions will come for you. Karma is
real and it's a bitch. Like Elaine getting a fake number. At the
end of the show, Cramer getting fired from the job he keeps going on
strike from, even though it's been ridiculous. Gross in the dough He's so
gross, He's so gross and looking at all time Comedies Seinfeld is definitely one
of them. It's it's amazing. I think neither Seinfeld nor Friends will age
weel Friends is definitely not aged. Well, there's a lot of things in
there that aren't great, and Seinfeld the cell phone essentially kills nine of the
other I think. So there's a person who does modern Seinfeld. I don't
remember what platform it's on, but he talks about how they would talk about
dating apps, texting rules around texting, like hookup culture, and it works.
I don't feels like it's in the voice of them, So I think
even if the cell phones would just add another layer to their neurosis, I'm
saying that they as the show is not that the show couldn't exist with cell
phones. The writing could write its way around anything. That's the point of
the show. It's just life. But what I think is going to happen,
much like has happened to a lot of great comedies, is that because
it's so much a period of its time that things kids that grow up with
an entire generation of smartphones are going to watch this show and not resonate with
it at all. It's not going to be one of the ones where people
go back many years and watch it because the premise of it would be so
defeated by the Internet and cell phones that people like, why wouldn't they just
text them or call them? When so many episodes like somebody's lost or somebody's
not there, or they don't know where they are? Should they keep waiting
for them? Like all those things. I think what we will see is
that, much like some of the show that our parents liked, that our
objectively great comedies are totally lost on us because we didn't live those times.
And I think, unfortunately sign Photo will go that way. Even though for
those of us that were alive during the times, we watch it and go
it was like that, And now kids, as they grow up, I
think, won't find this and look back on it and resonate and laugh.
But for those of us that were alive anywhere during the eighties nineties, this
show is glorious. Yeah, yeah, I love this show. I watched
it while it was on regular TV, and one of my favorite things as
a senior in high school was we would watch the episode and watch the episode
on Thursday night, and then I would and then the next day on Friday
at lunch, me and my two friends Jack and Ryan would just like relive
the episode together. I knew, but chat about it, and it was
really fun and a really cool way to connect to different kinds of people.
So I love the show. I'll always love the show. I don't disagree.
I think it ages way better than Friends. I think Friends is trash.
Agreed, I think it will. I think it ages a lot better.
But I definitely agree with what you're saying, Like, I don't know
that a young person could like watch the first episode and be connected to it
in the way that I am. Like, I just don't think that that's
a possibility, because there's things that just don't make any sense anymore right now
in the in the storyline, but when you grew up in a time without
cell phones and without the internet, like the show made a lot of sense.
And so yeah, but I love it and I'll always love it,
and I always laugh at it and I hope from it way too much.
It's it's glorious. It has it everywhere. But I think I think,
man, the best example I can give is the number of people that are
maybe ten to fifteen years older than us that love the WKRP and Cincinnati like
Turkey Drop, episode, which is really funny, but I don't think it
hits us the same way because radio hosts just didn't have any gravitas for us
by our generation. We're like, yeah, I don't care, I don't
know. I don't know. I watched that show and that show made me
laugh. I know I'm older than everybody here. That show did make me
laugh, and I did, and because we listened to their I grew up
listening to the radio, so it actually like knowing the hosts and it was
a thing. So yeah, I guess I'm What I'm really saying is that
I'm older than everyone and soll I used to listen. Hey, I listened
to Loveline religiously. Yeah, I did too in high school. So that's
of its time. That's podcast. Now you know what you're listening to right
now. I will say, if someone has just happen as we listen to
this episode and you've never seen son fald before, especially if you're a younger
person, don't start with season one, because no, there's Noah Lane in
the first few episodes. Started like season three or four, and you won't
feel lost because it's very much one of those shows where you don't really need
to know any history to enjoy what you're watching. Each episode can kind of
be watched in a vacuum for the most part, with the exception of like
the season the series finale, Yeah this is a comedy, when comedies were
just this is the episode. There's no overarching storyline or plot yeah yeah,
which is also different than Friends, where you kind of have to know who's
dating who, and who fucked over who, and who went on a break
but didn't go on a break and yeah and something we just we had said
before we recorded, like last week. I think, actually, is that
the reason why we do think? Like well, Hannah and I agree that
like sign foldal each better the friends. I know a lot of people are
friends. I'm not trying to be well, I am always trying to be
a friends later. I don't know why, I just try to act like
I wouldn't. Is that on Friends, you're supposed to like them, and
on Seinfeld you're not supposed to like them. You're supposed to think they're funny
like cartoons, like same with it's always funny, but you're not supposed to
like them. So I think what's hard when I watch Friends now is I'm
like I'm supposed to like these motherfuckers. They suck. So just to give
some further like just explaining a little bit about why I and Hannah have that
opinion. I know it's CONTROVERSI potentially because I know that Friends is having like
a renaissance with the younger people. Also, the nineties fashions are back,
which you could argue like chicken or the egg in terms of like what influenced
what the Rachel hair cuts back. That's just the time. It's just time
for it to come back. That's why. Yeah, it's time. But
AnyWho, Vintage is a twenty year cycle. Yeah, But happy Festivus to
you all, and happy whatever holiday you celebrate, whether that's Festivus, Kwanza,
Hanukkah, Christmas, non you know, second Winter Solice, Winter Winter
Solstice, Happy Winter Solstice to you all, specifically secular gift exchange, not
involving Santa exactly exactly. Well, on that note, have a happy Festivus,
y'all. Get at that, you know, metal poll and wrestle your
beloved beloved loved ones for dominance