The Dual-Career Couple with International Travel -- how Masha Saunders makes it work.

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and sixteen. Today we're going to be interviewing Masha Saunders, who is a accountant with PwC. She is also married to a diplomat who is stationed abroad, and they're going to talk about how they raise their family, a toddler daughter, given that the parents are in different locations, so definitely a complicated family situation, but one that they are managing to make work. So we're excited to talk about that now. Of course, part of being in a different country than your spouse is you wind up with some solo weekends. Sarah also winds up with some solo weekends, right, see you, I think very often maybe solo saturdays. No, yeah, but lucky. The weekends are almost never that, but there have been. I mean there have been many weeks like during the work week, but but the weekends is less like although, as we are recording this in late September, I will have a weekend without Michael because he's going to a Texas A and M game with some extended family. But that's nice. Our husband should have fun. I keep telling Josh to like take because I did go on a girl's weekend, so I do feel like it's sort of fair for him to go do some I don't know, guitar retreat or something, but he hasn't yet taken me up on the offer. Yeah, well you don't have to push it, Jasons. He listens to this podcas. Yeah, so you know, how do you how do you plan your solo weekend, Sarah? I you know, I have one coming up. And by the way, Stalkers, we record this ahead of time, so like, when you hear this, don't assume that I'm going to be alone all weekend. And you can we don't have the Stoker's listening to them. But just in case, so as we're taping this, we do have one coming up. Usually I'm pretty good about doing a lot of play dates and kind of filling the time with things. I haven't scheduled too much this time, but I do have a general template. I do have actually on my Instagram if anybody's curious, there was one weekend that I was solo and I was like, I'm going to document this in stories. What you know what a typical weekend at home looks like. So if you're if you're curious, I believe it's it's under weekend or weekend two or something like that in my stories. But usually I try to work out in the mornings, which I do not do like well, I let me take that back. So normally I might work out like at nine or ten am, or we might go or a family run or something all together. But if I'm solo, that's not going to be an option. So I do get up early, just like I do during the week, or at least I try to if I'm not too tired, because I do feel like if I can get that in the rest of the day just goes better. So I try to do that. Sometimes I have babysitters. Now, we had a great one over the summer, but she went back to college, so unfortunately I am back in finding a babysitter mode. And I do have on Saturday a high school babysitter that came recommended that's going to do sort of a little triout stint, So that will kind of take some time and we'll see how that goes. And the kids have basketball games, which is going to be logistically very hard, but I think my husband actually will leave work to help with at least some of the driving for that. And then usually I try to do kind of one low maintenance anchor event a day, like I'm not gonna be the cool mom who takes her kids to like I don't know, it drives two hours to Lego Land or something like that, and even the zoo, like that's a little much. I could do it with two, but three it's just like that's far. But I'll pick a local museum or we'll do the playground to meet up with another family, because I do find that engineering in some adult interaction is key for me to prevent me from going a little crazy. Yeah, well, having an extra set of hands for part of the time is really, I mean, just helpful in general. And I think if anyone is facing this situation, not something you should ever remotely feel guilty about. My mom is actually going to be around for this weekend when I've got the four kids, partly because logistically it just doesn't work, Like my eldest is going to a bar mitzvah, like somebody needs to pick him up at eleven o'clock at night. Like I'm not going to put Alex in the car at eleven o'clock at night to go get him. So I mean it's terrible. Oh my goodness, yes, yeah, So I mean what am I like my choices? I tell my kid he can't go, I've got her, or arrange a carpool, which I guess I could have done. Age can kids start ubering? Well, that's you know, it's a good question. I'm sure we have some opinions about on that among our listeners. And I'm also going to an Eagles game with Sam for his birthday, so yeah, that's something we need coverage for anyway. So yeahs always good to have the extra set of hands. But we'll hear about how Masha handles that. Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Masha Saunders to the program today. Masha, can you introduce yourself? Sure, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to share my story. My name is Masha Saunders. I'm from a suburb of Washington, d C. I'm a mom of a fourteen month old, a runner. I'm also a manager at the Peter Boucy McLain office here in Virginia. My husband is a diplomat with the US government. He has been working in the Balkans for the past two years, and this means basically that his job requires him to be abroad for most of the time. Yeah, it turns out that if you are a diplomat somewhere, you're generally supposed to be that place. It's harder job to do from remotely, right. Yeah, But a lot of people assume that if you have a spouse who's in the foreign service, or a spouse in the military, for instance, it can be really hard for you to build a career precisely because of the moving around aspect of it. You know, why is that the narrative out there and why was that something that you didn't actually buy into? Well, I think the narrative is because it's actually hard for spouses of diplomats, whether they're male or female, to find jobs abroad. In some instances, the laws prohibit them from working in the local economy, or there are no local jobs that would be a good fit for their skill set. The embassies abroad typically have some positions that are open for spouses. In my case, it was not a good option just for me personally. It does work for some people, it doesn't work for others. And then the reason why we decided to have the lifestyle that we have is actually well, first of all, we both of us love to travel, and we thought it would be a good opportunity to go to places that we would not otherwise go. The second reason is that my husband and I are both very focused in our careers and I really love my job at Peter bluc As I said, I work at Peter BC. I think I have a good career trajectory that I didn't want to give up. Yeah, and you're I don't think we mentioned to our listeners yet. You are recording this from abroad, correct, right right exactly, You're you're able to Actually, I want I want you to talk more about the logistics of that you're able to move your work remotely when you need to, but also spend that time in the home office when that's necessary as well. Exactly. Yes, that's the benefit. I guess that's really wonderful. And I suppose before you guys had kids, this was you know, probably complex, but but maybe less complex, right, Yes, it was much easier and just logistically because we could use our vacation some a combination of remote wark holidays, and it was just much easier to travel when we didn't have our daughter. But you guys decided that this was something you wanted to pursue. Can you talk a little bit about your you know, journey of having your daughter. And I want to mention here that one of the things I loved about masha story is she ran through her whole pregnant day, every single day, right, yes, Laura, just like you, And I think you actually were the one who inspired me to do the run streak, which lasted slightly over a year and right until the day my daughter was born, which is which is impressive. Did you run on the day you delivered and then didn't run the day after or it was so my last run was on Sunday and then I gave birth on Monday. Gotcha, gotcha? Well, that is incredibly impressive. I am, I am in aw I don't I think you know? I've often trailed off at the end and then and then maybe I think Sarah and I both like the last, and then I pick it back to get out of me, right, and then I run when you like, please come. Well, I should mention that my daughter was born one month early, quite unexpected, Lisa, maybe did induce labor, Yeah, I doubt it, but maybe you're just like mildly less uncomfortable in eight months versus nine. But right, and since your daughter's Bertha, I mean you when we talked earlier, Masha, you've told me about all the ways you've made time to gather as a family, which is both you know, attestament to the paternity policies of the US State Department to the flexibility of PwC. Like why don't you, why don't you talk about how you've made this work? Right, So, both of us, of course plan to spend as much time together as possible, but the old we also had to accept that there will be some degree of separation, and there will be quite a bit of traveling involved, and also that we would have to ask our employers for flexibility both on my end and on my husband's end, and so the option and I want to emphasize that the option of just working remotely full time for either of us did not work because both of our jobs obviously require our presence. I work with clients. My husband is a diplomat, so he needs to be in the country where he's working, so this was not a good option. So we basically sat down with our employers and were very open and honest about our family situation and worked out a plan to make it work. So in my case, I sat down with the partners I work for PETERWC and we we essentially drafted a plan through the end of my husband's tour in the Balkans, which involved a combination of remote work, full time work in the US, vacation holidays, unpaid leaves, a bad go and everything in between. And I was also I decided that I would be using my sabbatical time and leave time to spend time with my family and also wrap up my CPA exams, which would help me to further progress in my career. And you actually gave birth in the right your husband was able to come over. I did for a while. I did, yep. And I am just impressed at the level of organizing that this must take. But it's funny because probably a lot of people with more traditional setups could benefit from this level of granularity about different forms of work, right, And I just think it's it's a great example of the power of planning. Thank you as usual. How many times? How many times have you flown across the Atlantic with your daughter at this point? So I think it's been at least ten and she's fourteen months right now, so she's been on the plane quite a lot. We also travel for our own family reasons, for vacations and such, so yeah, she's been on the plane quite a bit. Awesome. Well, we will be right back in just a minute or so. We're going to take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors listeners. If you're running a business, you know that hiring isn't as simple as putting an ad in the paper or posting to a job board. When you're juggling hiring with everything else it takes to grow your business, it's important that you reach the right candidates at the right time and that's where LinkedIn comes in. Over six hundred million members visit LinkedIn to make connections, learn and grow as professionals, and discover new job our opportunities. 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You can schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist. They have licensed professional counselors who specialize in everything from depression and anxiety to sleeping issue, grief and self esteem. Anything you share is of course confidential, and if you're not happy with your counselor for any reason, you can request a new one at any time. Start communicating in under twenty four hours. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Best of both worlds. Podcast listeners get ten percent of your first month with discount code best up. So why not get started today? Go to betterhelp dot com slash best up. Simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor you'll love. That's betterhelp dot Com slash best of All. Right, so Maja you are You guys are a crossing the ocean all the time, but most of the time your daughter lives with you in Virginia. Correct. That's sort of the default of what you guys have set up, and so you you know, yeah, the interesting thing about this is, I mean a lot of people who work for major accounting firms who have their partners around, you know, have logistical challenges with the travel hours, the busy season, things like that. So how do you make it work? Like, what is your support system for raising a toddler wall in many cases being the solo parent for big chunks of time. So my strategy is asking for help a lot from family, friends, and also outsourcing as much as possible. I think I actually learned a lot of these strategies from the podcast. Again, so thank you. But when our daughter was born, we helped my family move closer to us, and my mom stayed with us actually for a while at least for the first six weeks to help us take care of the baby. Then as we were traveling back and forth. She has been essentially our primary childcare, especially for the first sick to eight months. I think we also have when we are abroad, we have a full time nanny who comes nine till five during the week and sometimes on weekends to work with us. She's fantastic. We love her, and when my mom is not available when we are in the US, we just ask our friends to help. I send out a request to my group of close friends and we work out a schedule. It does require some planning, but then it helps me have at least one hour day or some some time to run errands or do shopping or whatever I need to do, and you manage to get your workouts in because I understand that you're still you're still running the streak stopped for a bit, but right, yes, it does, and it actually helped me manage stress. That's one of my tools to manage stress and manage anxiety because I do get tired, Like I admit that I don't have a magic pill. So I try to get out at least for ten minutes, even if it's on a treadmill or if I run outside. But yeah, I try to exercise. Yeah, when you are solo, is the trend? Like what are your specific strategies? Because that's when I find. The only way I can really do workouts if I'm by myself is to do them very early in the morning, which on the weekends is sort of painful because it's like, oh, that would have been my chance to sleep. So what do you do? What are your go to secrets? Or do you use naptime? If I am by myself, I either use nap time or run early in the morning. At home, we have a treadmill at home. And so I use that. Sometimes I do a quick session of pilate's at home, also early in the morning when my daughter is sleeping, or again I just use my ask my friends to help to come and help and sit be at home for an hour while I'm running outside or going to a PILATEUS class. That's great. Yeah, it really does take a village. And I'm curious. You know, this is probably not easy on your husband either. I mean, most of the time he's not doing the solo parenting aspect of it. But you know, nobody likes to be away from their family for big chunks of time either, and being abroad without your family for big chunks of time is probably very lonely. So I'm curious how he feels about it and how he sees this shaking out long term. So we both understand that this may not work long term. Right, So we take this lifestyle for now, but we realize that later on he may take job in DC that option is available, or we could do a tour with my job somewhere in another country. That option is also available. Right now, of course, he tries to see us as much as possible. It's been working great with my employer and the flexibility that I have been getting from them. And my husband also tries to plan his travel schedule for the time when we're in the US, So if he has to go for training or some work related trip to the US, he tries to plan it for the time when we're there. That makes a lot of sense. And you had mentioned something earlier about taking a sabbatical, which is something that some employers offered. Maybe not many, but certainly some do. How did you find out about this and how did you negotiate to do this? So we have two types of sabbaticals at Peter BLUs See. One is a milestone sabbatical that people get when they get promoted to director. In my case, I negotiated a non milestone sabbatical that was also available. I learned about it from our internal newsletter. I just read some stories of people who took advantage of it, and I thought, oh, it might be a great option for me, and so I approached my partners and we talked about it and I told them that I could use it for my CPA studies and it worked out. Yeah, that is awesome, And along I'm just curious, like, so, what does that mean like three months, Like, what are the logistics of us? Sorry, I'm nosys of a sabbatical if you can share, Usually, I think it is six weeks, but I think for non milestone it's up to four weeks. But I'm not exactly certain. I worked out a schedule of three and a half months on a sabbatical, but I'm not sure what other people make it. No. I had to ask because you know, of course people think of academia and professors and I'm picturing you like the entire year off and I'm like, no opportunities, But you know, it's all a matter of figuring out adding various time that you can you can spend different places. Oh yeah, that sounds awesome. And what advice do you have for other families considering this? Like if somebody is listening to this and it's like, well, you know, my husband's career military officer, my partners in the foreign service or something like that, and they are, you know, oriented toward their own career as well, Like, what advice do you have for families looking at this situation. I think you have to be very creative and do a lot of planning, potentially some short term planning. Because it's a lot easier to say no to something if you have to plan one year, even three years ahead. So maybe think in chunks of three months or six months at a time and see what could what options you could combine. Could it be part time work or sabbatical of full time remote work, or running your own business or something else. Yeah, great advice. And I wonder if you could talk through a day in the life. Our listeners always like to hear you know how your days go. So you know today you're you're in the Balkans as we're recording this. So what did a day there look like for you? You You mean when I'm abroad? Yeah, well like today? What's what does today look like for you? Yeah? So if I'm if I'm abroad, I typically work US hours. That means that the second part of my day is usually work devoted to my work, and so I have free time time in the morning. So I usually get up around five or five thirty. My husband and I alternate and feeding our daughter and getting her back into her crib for a nap. After that, I usually do my CBA studying. I do a quick pilates session around seven, have breakfast, kind of get ready for the day, potentially do some studying or reading, Cooke breakfast for our daughter, and then our nanny comes at around nine. Sometimes I spend time sometime with the nanny to kind of help help her out with meal planning or maybe things that we need to think about for my daughter. Sometimes we play together with my daughter, and then my daughter is obviously with the name and I either do some CPA studying again or catch up on some work or run errands until about one or two PM, half quick lunch, and around two I usually start my work day if that's the day when I am working, and then my husband gets home at around five, he takes over and he usually takes our daughter for a walk or sometime outside. Around seven, we put her to bed either one of us and I just continue working throughout the evening, which means that sometimes we don't get dinner together. We try to find at least maybe one evening a week to do dinner together at home. We typically do not do evening dates or ask our nanny to babysit in the evening, and instead we do a long run on Sundays and a coffee or brunch afterwards, and so my evening typically ends at around ten, and that's when the lights go out exactly. That is that's so unusual. You have like a very interesting kind of flipped schedule. But it's like all the essential pieces are there. That's so fascinating. Right did we say where you were by the way, or you were allowed to say where you are? You don't have to said it in the Balkans perfect, So there's a significant So we'll say there's a significant time difference, which is probably why it's better for you to be working later there because then you're right, you know, with the US risday. Right, So cool, very cool? Well, Masha, we always end with our love of the week, which is, you know something that's really cool for us in any given week, Sarah and I can go first to give you a minute to think about it. Okay, so Sarah, what do you Sarah's you know, a perpetual favorite, so predictable. But like I finally got my hopeonichi package and how do I not mention it? Right? It came in the mail and I ordered this covered that has a beautiful picture of a leak. It's like a photo image taken by this photographer, Hiroshi Hatano, and it is as beautiful in person as I imagined it to be, so I'm super happy with my purchase. Awesome. Well, I'm going to say that my love of the week is Evite, which is one of these old school, you know, online products that you send out invitations to birthday parties. But in the fall I always wind up doing, you know, a couple birthday parties with the way my kids birthdays fall, and it's just so easy to like plug in you know, the info and all their classmates email address from the directory from last year because we never have the directory in time for us to do for this year. But I said, there's some slew thing going on, but I, you know, can just send it out and that manages it. And you know, it's one of these wonders of the Internet that not having to manage rs vps that we take for granted now. But it's still really cool, Masha, how about you. So first thing that I have to mention that, Sarah, I also ordered how Bonico planner. It has not arrived yet, but it's I'm very excited, but it's not my love of the week okay yet yet. So my love of the week I already mentioned it's actually a Sunday long run with my husband and a coffee of brunch afterwards. That sounds really awesome. Nice, I know we got to I would love to be able to figure out how to do that again, but either I'd have to trade off church, which you know is something I would have singing now, so I do. And then Saturday we always seem to have kid athletic activities. We'd have to figure out how to you know, have somebody else drive for those or something right right, But yeah, no, that sounds really My problem is my husband runs too fast, I mean very fast. All right. Well, Masha, thank you so much for joining us. This has been awesome. Thank you. All right, So our question this week also comes from a listener who's dealing with a situation with a spouse with long hours or another situation that prevents them from being physically present. In this case, she says she is struggling to strike an equitable balance with my partner at home. My husband and I are new parents to a six month old boy and both have demanding careers. She's in a leadership position at a growing tech company, and he is a fourth year associate at a corporate law firm. She says. Her challenge is this, My husband's hours are extremely difficult. He often works straight through from ten am to two am, sometimes either even later. It's rare we have an uninterrupted weekend or vacation. We also have an hour and forty five minute commute to NYC. He goes without saying that there isn't much time to ask him to help more at home, But right now I'm getting crushed at work and managing everything for our son. Husband offers to cover the morning so I can have some time to myself, but it's hard to ask him to do that when he's been up late at night. She says. She usually goes to bed early. Even if I delegate tasks when he has a few free minutes during the day, he ends up asking so many questions that it takes more time than if I had just done it myself. Although she says, don't get me wrong, I'd be frustrated if he didn't do it exactly the way I wanted. Why Katie read my mind, ha ha ha. All right, there's one last factor in our dynamic, which is that I actually contribute more financially, though in the long term she thinks he will likely surpass her, but right now it adds to the resentment. They are relatively newlyweds, so they also don't see each other much during the week, and this doesn't seem like a good newlywed set up, she says. It sounds like I'm unhappy when I'm actually the happiest I've ever been. I'm just struggling to figure out how to strike a better, more balanced life at home while still working within the constraints of careers that mean a lot to us. Oh my gosh, I am so stressed out just listening to this question, I should say her for anyone who's wondering why the crazy hours. So, what happens with a lot of law firms, he's in the sort of making partner window. And what happens for a lot of people who are in this window this run up to this, is that you are judged on how many hours you bill, and so most people want to build very much at the top range of what they will ever be doing in order to make it through that hoop. And there are of course some real financial benefits to making it through that hoop, you know, to the point where your salary. I mean, it's not just like you know, doubling. It's it's like, there can be you know, five x, you know, ten x within the next few years if you make it through that hoop. So that's sort of what they're dealing with. And so we followed up with her and said, well, is this actually a family priority for you? Right? Like, is this is him getting through this hoop something that you support that you care about or not? And if not, that's fine you are allowed to say and then you guys then have to decide from that. On the other hand, if it is a family priority, that's important to keep in mind, not saying you have to accept everything because you don't like even somebody in the partner window. Can you know, contribute at home and do all that. But again it's just you know, the idea of is this something that matters to you as a family, And she mentioned that yes, actually it does. She wants the flexibility of him having that sort of level of tenure and earnings that would then come from having made partners, so to put that out there, and I think that with that in mind, I guess, well, the statistic I don't have is like, how how likely is it to come to fruition? Because if it's very likely, then I think they should be throwing a lot more money at the problem, because they're both in decent careers. Even if this means not saving or even if this means, you know, taking out some loans, it sounds like they should be able to you know, if he's going to be making ex jillion dollars a year later, it may not matter. But I'm worried about their relationship. I'm worried about both of their mental health. I mean, I commuting that far seems to logistically put huge question marks in my eyes, like why why are we commuting that far? Yeah? I think ed we wrote back and they were living close to extended family. I believe, but I think maybe that's something that they need to recalibrate at this point. If they could move into the city, like close to his office, I'm close to her office, cutting that commute down, cut the mute down, commute down to like if you could get it to like less than twenty minutes for each of you. If like you're both in midtown, great, because you know, yes, you're gonna have to hire childcare help for a lot more hours, but you're also getting back an hour for both of you on either side, which is which is something that you could definitely use in this situation. I would also say that you know he may have a mindset that again the only thing he has to do is throw ours against this problem of billing it. And it's not quite that simple. Like, if you want to maximize your chances of making partner, it's not just the hours. You also want to be careful of which partners you are working with, what they are going to say about you, the sort of easily documented big wins, the people who are willing to kind of bang on the table for you in the meeting. So yes, there is a big component of how much have you build, but it is not just that. So I want to make sure that he's being strategic as well. And you know that's the same advice we'd give to a mom who is trying to make partner in this window with a young kid too. But you know, it's not just the hours, So make sure that you're also thinking about making your your chances the best possible. I hope they're also just maximizing like I mean, sort of redundant to what I said, but just all the logistics, Like I hope nobody is spending time in this couple doing laundry, and I hope nobody is spending time doing minutia around the house like this. This is a situation where they need to prioritize some time together because it sounds like that is a struggle and their marriage is so new, and if their relationship doesn't last, then it doesn't matter if their husband, if the guy makes partner, because well, that won't be your spouse anymore, right, So I think that I just think that really looking at putting all of the potentially manipulatable pieces in your favor to give yourselves more time for each other and more time to be a family, it's worth doing that. And I also think she doesn't have to protect him from the choices he makes. Like she says he's offered to take the kid in the morning so she can have some time. Take him up on it. It is not your responsibility to judge how much has he slept, is he feeling relaxed? Is this the best thing? Like? Let him do it, partly because he probably wants time with your little one, right and so don't deny him that If he's asking about it, like that's that's something that you can give him. And that's if that's the only time he's going to get all day with your kid, then by all means, let them have that relationship and build that relationship and you know, use the time for something else. So yeah, no, I'm and I sympathize with this. You know, my husband is not a lawyer, but went through a you know, consulting firm sort of you know hoop that you leap through. But one thing is we we did not start planning to have children until after he was through it. Yeah, this sounds like it's the residency phase. This is Yeah, this is the residency phase of life for this and and you know, with some jobs there are big payoffs for that. Like you said, I mean, you earn more as a doctor than you do as a residence. So you don't want to just view it as the long term. But it would help for everyone to know, like a what percent of their people in the fourth year, fifth year range do make partner? What you know, does that involve like make sure he's talking to the people who are doing this, because you know, yeah, you want to make sure that this is something it won't be exactly like this forever. But it may be for another year or two at least, and so you want to make sure that this is worth it, and maybe think about a plan B, you know, like if it doesn't work out, maybe get figure out what that timeframe would be and then you know, think of have something else in your mind, because that might be helpful to anticipate and think about just in case. And I'll always put a plug for thinking about cost of living and the trials and tribulations of being in New York. Yeah, although if both their jobs are there, I don't know what they're supposed to do about that. Both their jobs are there now, but they oh long term maybe, as I'm saying, plan B, plan B, if it didn't if it didn't work out, all right, Well, this has been best of both worlds we've been talking. Our interview was with Masha Saunders talking about being married to a diplomat and also building a career in a big accounting firm while doing that. We'll be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.