AvTalk Episode 240: First officer threatens to shoot captain over medical diversion

AVT 240 Transcript
EPISODE 240
[EPISODE]
[0:00:08] IP: Hello, and welcome to Episode 240 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always
with –
[0:00:17] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Hello, Ian. How did your move go?
[0:00:21] IP: It went well, thank you. Yes, it went about as well as one can expect a move to go.
I'm recording from the new recording space.
[0:00:30] JR: New studio.
[0:00:33] IP: A new. Sure. We'll call it a studio. There's a microphone, there's headphones,
there's a computer. It's a studio. So yes, everything's gone well. We're getting unpacked and
finding things that we didn't know we owned. I found an American West 747 model that I forgot I
had.
[0:00:49] JR: Wow. How do you forget –
[0:00:50] IP: I’m not sure how it got packed up.
[0:00:51] JR: – something like that?
[0:00:53] IP: It's one of those like small GeminiJets. It was apparently already in a box. So,
when I went to unpack said box, I was like, “Oh, neat.” So, there you go.
[0:01:02] JR: That’s nice. Well, for those not paying attention at home, Ian moved houses
recently. I'm pretty sure your new house is in between runway four left and right at O'Hare. So,
that's nice.
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[0:01:13] IP: Yes, so I went from basically directly under 2-7 center to just north of 2-7 center,
and just south of 2-7 right. So, switched views of the same runway. That'll all work out, as far as
plane spotting goes.
[0:01:31] JR: That's nice. It's important to know those things when house hunting. What
runways and what approaches will I have a view of from this new housing situation. You got to
know that.
[0:01:41] IP: I'm excited because this moves me back into the closer to the departure path that I
was previously. So, I'm excited about that when they're departing to the east.
[0:01:53] JR: That's nice.
[0:01:53] IP: It's the small things. The house is fine, too.
[0:01:56] JR: I mean, not so much interested in that, but good. That's nice to know.
[0:02:01] IP: So, I've spent my week moving and doing all sorts of good fun things like that. You
sir, had a bit more of an AvGeek adventure.
[0:02:09] JR: I did. So, round two of an attempt to fly a seaplane off the East River with a little
operation tailwind here in the northeast, they do a lot of seaplane operations. One of those
routes happens to be from Manhattan East 23rd Street on the East River up to Boston, and I
was supposed to do that last month, or I guess it is now the next month. But I was supposed to
do that in September. But the weather for many weekends in a row here was just awful. I picked
the NOAA data out of a hat and got an absolutely spectacular day for what turned out to be a
very quick flight on a Cessna 208 seaplane, I believe, off the East River. We did a little 180
around the southern battery, the southern tip of Manhattan, went up the Hudson River, cut
across, and made a straight line for Boston Harbor. It was fun. Ian, it was a lot of fun.
[0:03:00] IP: I unfortunately could not participate because you can't take a seaplane from
Chicago to New York.
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[0:03:07] JR: That'd be a long flight. I mean, Manhattan to Boston Harbor was about an hour
and 20 minutes, and that's a little longer than your typical flight. But the magic there is that we
went to the departure point in Manhattan East 23rd Street, kind of a hybrid Marina seaplane
terminal thing and we just got on the plane. It was just coming in from outside of Boston. We
watched it land on the river. We got in, and it left.
So, the total time from curb to getting on the airplane to taking off was like, was measured in
seconds, not even minutes at that point. It was pretty, pretty great, and I think the most
interesting part of tailwind was just the operations of how you come in and out of the Manhattan
area, that some of the world's most congested airspace with the three major airports, plus all the
helicopters, and all the VFR traffic, and all of the everything going on, and it's just they do it so
often that they're so accustomed to it. This is a two-pilot operation with tailwind. This is not just
not like most Cape Air flights are there's one pilot in the left seat and the passenger can sit in
the right seat. Unfortunately, they kind of need two pilots here to manage docking, I guess.
But one of the most interesting things was just taking off out of Manhattan how much traffic
there was, and how much other stuff, not just airplanes but boats that they had to deal with. At
one point, we actually got hit by the wake. Not the wake turbulence the wake of a ferry, which
created quite a lot of turbulence on board the little Cessna, actually, which is interesting. But
once we took off the T caste system was just kind of going nuts with other traffic. Just saying,
traffic 11 o'clock, traffic 12 o'clock, traffic 1 o'clock, traffic above, traffic below. It was just
interesting to see how they deal with it and they're so accustomed to it. It wasn't a problem, but
it was just fun looking out the windows on any side and really seeing a helicopter here, a little
Cessna 172 out there. Oh, there's an NYPD helicopter over there, and then you get outside in
New York and it's just serene. There's just nothing going on. You make a straight line to the
Boston Harbor, and you land just outside of Logan, and then that's it. It was a lot of fun.
[0:05:14] IP: I'm glad you enjoyed, and we can see pictures, hopefully somewhere, because
that would be fun.
[0:05:19] JR: Sure. I'll send you over some pictures, and we can put them on in the show notes,
but I probably won't provide is any pictures from the very slow Amtrak Northeast Regional Train
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on the way home, which instead of an hour and 20 minutes was four and a half hours. So, you
can see the time advantage there is nificant.
[0:05:39] IP: Okay. You're ready to jump in?
[0:05:41] JR: You're sold here.
[0:05:41] IP: I'm sold.
[0:05:43] JR: You're sold on the situation. We got to get something going on the lake out there
between Chicago and Milwaukee, maybe?
[0:05:50] IP: Sure. Why not?
[0:05:51] JR: Man, we thought last week, we had seen the pinnacle of, I don't want to use the
word crazy, but crazy events happening in the flight deck. One week later, it has been upstaged.
Ian, tell us what happened?
[0:06:08] IP: So, here's the thing. We don't know much about what exactly happened.
[0:06:15] JR: But we know enough to guess.
[0:06:17] IP: What we do know, is the charging document that has been issued in the District
Court in Salt Lake City. That is Jonathan Dunn, who is now a former Delta first officer, is
charged with one count of interfering with a flight crew. You might be thinking to yourself, “Oh, is
this another situation with an off-duty pilot?” No, my friends. This was a situation where the on-
duty first officer is charged with threatening to shoot the captain, if they diverted the aircraft due
to an ongoing medical emergency.
[0:06:58] JR: Okay, there's a lot to unpack there.
[0:07:00] IP: So, let's unpack this a bit. There was an onboard medical emergency. We don't
know what flight this was, so we don't know where it was coming from. We don't know where it
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was going to, and we also don't know, importantly, to try and figuring out which flight this was.
We don't know if the flight actually diverted.
[0:07:18] JR: We don't even know the actual date that this occurred. On the indictment of this is
on or about August 22, 2022. So, this was over a year ago, plus or minus.
[0:07:29] IP: Right. If we take August 22nd as the date of fact, and just chalk up the on or about
to legalese in the indictment. There were 74 diverted Delta flights, and the ones that diverted to
Salt Lake City were not A320 aircraft. We know that the pilot who's been charged was in A320
family operator. So, the flights that diverted to Salt Lake City that day were not operated by
A320s. So, we don't know where the flight was coming from. We don't know where it was going
to. But we know there was a medical emergency on board. And we also know from the charging
document, that the first officer, then there was a conversation, I assume, about whether or not to
divert the aircraft. And the first officer then threatened the captain, and said that he would shoot
the captain multiple times if the captain diverted the aircraft.
[0:08:22] JR: So, here's where it gets interesting. This was possibly not an empty threat. When
someone says, “Oh, I'm going to shoot you”, you may not take them at face value. But in this
case, this pilot was technically a sworn officer of the law, as he participated in the federal flight
deck officer program, which you may not be very familiar with. It's under the TSA and then
therefore the Homeland Security umbrella. But it is a post 9/11 program, where pilots of
commercial and freight aircraft can apply to basically become a quasi-air Marshal and actually
carry a loaded weapon onboard their aircraft on duty while operating the aircraft.
So, this is probably not an empty threat. This is a person who was in the position to make good
on this threat if they actually wanted to, which is not a situation you probably come across all
that often. A lot of this threats like this is hyperbole. You're just someone who's drunk. This is
actually a sworn officer of the law, technically, with permission and actual physical permits to
carry a weapon onboard the aircraft and could have actually, I guess, made good on this threat,
which is just wild.
[0:09:42] IP: Yes. I mean, this all came to light last night. So, Tuesday, the 31st of October, when
the Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector General posted a notice that they were
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investigating this incident after the grand jury had returned. to an indictment against this former
first officer. The DOT OIG said that Dunn interfered with the performance of a crew member by
using a dangerous weapon to assault and intimidate the captain. So, it's not clear what
happened, but it sounds like they were ready to make good on their threat. So, no one has
really commented on this. The US Attorney's Office has not. Delta Airlines has not, beyond to
say that Dunn is no longer employed by the airline and the TSA, and the OIG. No one has
commented because they don't want to comment on an ongoing investigation, and an ongoing
criminal proceeding.
So, the arraignment of Dunn will occur on the 16th of November. So, in two weeks’ time, in Salt
Lake City, it is at that time we should learn a bit more about what the government alleges
happened on the flight deck of this aircraft. But a very, very scary situation here, where a person
who was authorized to carry a firearm on a commercial aircraft threatened to use it if the captain
diverted the aircraft in service of someone onboard having a medical emergency.
[0:11:22] JR: Yes. This isn't like a response to a heated argument in the middle of a boring
cruise flight or anything like that. This was in response to one of the pilots taking the best
interest of one of their passengers into account. Remember, flight crew is always there for the
safety and wellbeing of the passengers on board, and the US crew will tell you that is their
highest number one priority. And here you have one pilot literally threatening to kill their fellow
pilot, if they possibly diverted the aircraft due to a medical situation, which I don't even really
know if obviously is their call at the end of the day. But if they have medical personnel on board,
or if they use MedLink or something like that, where the remote doctor says, “You should land
this plane as soon as you can because this passenger needs medical care.” The flight crew
should be doing that. It wreally shouldn't be their call to not divert the aircraft if medical
professionals or telling them to do it.
At this point, I think the only question that we can ask is has the federal flight deck officer
program outlived its usefulness? From my point of view, and this is completely subjective. Yes, it
is time to get rid of this program. If you look at the Wikipedia entry, there is not a single entry of
anything useful coming out of this program. But there sure are a number of incidents of things
going wrong such as, on March 24, 2008, a US Airways pilot’s gun went off on a flight from
Denver to Charlotte. And another one, a bag with the weapon was accidentally picked up by a
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passenger, and then another one, United Airlines pilot threw live ammo in the trash before
flushing it down the toilet, after accidentally carrying it on an international flight.
Other cases of the weapon being left on board and other things happening, it just seems like
maybe this was good intentions in the wake of 9/11, but no good has ever actually come out of
this program. It really doesn't seem like anything good ever will come out of it. But it's almost a
certainty that negative stupid things like this will and it is time to rethink this program.
[0:13:25] IP: Yes. I mean, there were a number of reactions, post 9/11 where the grasping for
any measure that could be deemed to increase safety in any way shape or form could be
passed. And I think this was one of them, where some good intentions here, but also the
incidents that you've mentioned, and I'm sure the others that have occurred without being listed
in that article, plus the passage of all the regulations regarding flight deck doors, and
modifications, and the addition of a secondary barrier, and things like that, that are coming to
pass now. I mean, at this point, I can't disagree with Jason and say that, perhaps it's time to
review how this program has been implemented and if it's still necessary.
[0:14:13] JR: Yes, it just seems like it's time for this to go. Even in the best-case scenario, I
can't imagine what having this weapon on board would really do in any positive way. It seems
like just a horrible, horrible place to even think about using a firearm. It's just not a good idea.
Bad idea all around. I get why it existed at one point in time. Sure. Yes, time for this to go.
[0:14:38] IP: Yes, let's go back to last week when we thought we had reached the top of the
mountain on this kind of thing, and we talked about the involvement of psychedelic mushrooms,
and we talked about the statement from the lawyer that said he was not under the influence
when he boarded the flight. Going back and reading that, he says he took them multiple days,
two days before the flight, and then had not slept for 40 hours. So, I don't know enough about
how psychedelic mushrooms work, and if you do podcast FR24, you can school me, and maybe
Jason, I don't know. But I just wanted to point out the timeline has been clarified on when the
psychedelic mushrooms were ingested and when he got on the plane.
Other than that, we don't really know much more about what happened than we did last week,
and he's been arraigned and is awaiting the next steps there.
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[0:15:38] JR: Okay, then.
[0:15:37] IP: Yes. Also, getting underway this week is the JetBlue Spirit antitrust trial. The
Department of Justice here was delayed a week or so, because of the government, Congress
funding bills and things like that. But it is underway. Today was day two. So, nothing like getting
started on Halloween to set the mood. It's going, I mean, we don't really have much in the way
of what's happened so far in the trial. We're going to kind of wait and see how things go in
totality.
One thing I think we should mention, and this was flagged by our friend Ned Russell, over at
Skift, Airline Weekly. But a lot of financial analysts and one financial analyst in particular, are
calling for JetBlue to renegotiate the deal to buy Spirit based on the fact that spirit is losing a ton
of money, and their stock price is nearly worthless compared to where they were.
[0:16:35] JR: Yes. One of those calls came from Jamie Baker, I believe that said you need to go
back and rethink this because things have changed since JetBlue first pursued. Spirit. Market
forces are different now. Spirit is going to have a lot of trouble in the near-term future, not only
because there are competitive forces outside of its control, but also the Pratt & Whitney issues
affecting a large chunk of its fleet. Hopefully, not my two fights this coming Sunday, knock on
wood. But there are a lot of factors dragging down Spirit at this point, and JetBlue still wants it,
but maybe it paid a little too much for it or offered too much. So, far in the trial, it’s been a lot of
setup, a lot of here's how airlines work. Here's how slots work. Here's the basics. Here's what
the offer was. If you want to follow the play by play, TPG’s David Slotnick is there, somewhere in
some very sad overflow courtroom.
[0:17:32] IP: The overflow room.
[0:17:34] JR: The overflow room watching on a live feed. He's provided an excellent play by
play on Twitter. I recommend going through his tweets to see what he has been saying. Not
much news at this point. But things should be getting spicy in the coming days and weeks.
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[0:17:50] IP: Yes. So, we'll keep an eye on the trial. And if news truly does happen before the
conclusion and verdict, then we'll bring it to you in that week's episode.
A few weeks ago, we began to process, Jason and I, began to process SAS leaving Star
Alliance moving under the Air France KLM umbrella. And last week, our friend Brett Snyder over
a Cranky Flier put together an interesting piece that I very much enjoyed and I put a link to it in
the show notes, because I think it's worth reading. It's titled SAS wisely ditches Star Alliance and
realigns with Air France KLM. His argument was one of SAS’s place in the world, and how SAS
connects to the rest of Europe. He walks through the argument that Jason and I have made a
few times that we thought that SAS would just become a wholly owned subsidiary of Lufthansa
Group and join Brussels and Swiss, and Austrian. And his argument using kind of the route
network metrics makes the case for the connectivity from Scandinavia and from the Nordics
really coming into Amsterdam and Paris.
So, I thought that was a really interesting thing to look at, and a way of looking at things to really
put this into context. Then, this week, Air France and KLM, basically, made the same argument
in their third quarter earnings call, saying SAS’s eventual membership in the Air France KLM,
Delta, and Virgin Atlantic's joint venture members of sky team all, that would really be the way
forward. The interesting thing here, at least for me, is the question that then comes, what
happens to the Copenhagen hub and what happens to Amsterdam? Because as we've talked
about over the past, I don't know how many weeks, Amsterdam Graham is cutting flights left,
right, and center.
The Dutch government is really trying to cut flights in and out of Amsterdam, any way they can,
whether that's coming at the expense of KLM or any other airlines, they're really looking to cut
flights. So, if SAS is moving over into the Air France KLM umbrella, if they're joining the joint
venture, that, to me, at least really develops the Copenhagen hub.
[0:20:28] JR: Yes. I'm not as sold as maybe other parties like Copenhagen or any of SAS’s
other hubs are really a connecting hub to the degree that Amsterdam is. Amsterdam is
theoretically a very easy airport to connect through. I don't think any of the Nordic hubs are
really anywhere on that same level. They're much smaller airports there. The connections there
are not nearly as seamless. They're going to have to do some sort of modification to those
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airports to make that easier. But yes, the three-hub system that SAS has now, obviously, well,
cannot carry forward if it finds itself in Star Alliance.
But Ian, we know we need to talk about more than just which hub will or will not survive. It's also
the joint venture that I think you alluded to, that is a major factor in why Air France KLM may
want to bring SAS into the fold. The joint venture, for lack of a better terms, is how should I put
this, legal price fixing more or less where the airlines can, I don't want to use the word collude.
But they can collude to set the price cooperatively for fares across the Atlantic. We see this with
American and BA, with their joint venture, including Iberia and a few other airlines, I think. Star
Alliance has this with United, Lufthansa, Swiss and a few others and Sky team will now
theoretically possibly include SAS, which to me is not great, because SAS is not known for its
fantastic service or anything. It's known for rock bottom kind of full service, kind of low-cost
carrier fares. I would be very sad to see if SAS fares suddenly go from industry low affordable to
whatever the Delta Sky Team Virgin Atlantic joint venture determines it to be because I can
guarantee it's going to be higher. That sucks.
[0:22:23] IP: Yes, from a customer perspective, it certainly won't be beneficial. That said, in a
long-term view, and we've talked about this before, SAS’s pricing model has always been, I
think the only way to describe it is bonkers.
[0:22:39] JR: I mean, more or less, yes. That's a technical term, though.
[0:22:42] IP: Yes. It's a very, very specific technical term. I mean, the pricing model is just, I
don't understand how it works. Obviously, it didn't work because they’re going through the
chapter 11 process. So, I mean, purely from a personal perspective, yes, it's a bummer. But
from an airline survival perspective, and a perspective of trying to come out of bankruptcy, it
makes a little more sense.
[0:23:08] JR: Yes.
[0:23:08] IP: Speaking of losing money, we had a slew of third quarter earnings reports. We
won't bore you with that. I guess, the long and the short of it is large airlines made money, low
cost carriers either lost money or didn't make as much money. But the one we're going to talk
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about is not an airline at all. It's Spirit AeroSystems that we've been talking about over the past
few weeks, and that is the fact that they lost $204 million in the third quarter, and they lost $204
million in the third quarter on the back of all of these quality issues that they've been
experiencing, and the amount of money it's taken to rework all of the fuselage components that
have needed a second or perhaps third look. So, this is a week after Boeing said that they're
going to give him a very, very large check. So, we'll see what happens in the fourth quarter, but
ouch.
[0:24:08] JR: Yes. No sympathy from me here. You screw up a 60-year-old product that badly
enough times, you should take a financial hit.
[0:24:16] IP: Speaking of 737 fuselages, Southwest has ordered a whole bunch more. Well,
they ordered the whole plane, but it starts with the fuselage. Southwest has ordered late last
week, ordered 108 additional 737-7s. So now, by far, the largest 737-7 airline, even before the
aircraft is certified, which will hopefully happen at some point.
[0:24:49] JR: By the end of this year, they're potentially claiming. So, we'll see.
[0:24:52] IP: Yes. So, 108 more for Southwest and that goes to the order book for not just the
-7, but all 737 MAX to more than 500. So, Southwest has more than 500 737s on order. That's a
lot airplane.
[0:25:10] JR: I think they like that aircraft. I think it might make it.
[0:25:11] IP: Yes, maybe.
[0:25:13] JR: Yes, maybe.
[0:25:14] IP: The 737s got a bright future.
[0:25:16] JR: Yes, especially for Southwest. But meanwhile, on the complete opposite end of
the spectrum, Air New Guinea has finally signed a firm Airbus order for a cute little six
A220-100s. In addition, though, acquire three A220-300s and another two A220-100s from third
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parties, but kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. They're not 108. We’re talking maybe
about 10 aircraft here. But it's noteworthy because this is an airline that's not replacing anything
modern by any means. These are being acquired to phase out the Fokker 70 and 100, which I
guess shed a little tear for that oddball, weirdo, old style aircraft. Those are becoming few and
far between. But yes, that's an interesting order.
[0:26:03] IP: Yes. Part of me is sad. Obviously, from an AvGeek perspective, part of me is very
sad to see these older aircraft go. But another part of me is like, that's really cool to go from
these older aircraft and having the issues that come along with having older aircraft and
maintaining those things. And then going okay, we're going brand new. We're not even doing
used 737NGs or anything like that. We're going, “You know what, let's do it. Let’s go for it.”
[0:26:28] JR: They're going to go from the issues involved in maintaining a 31-year-old Fokker
102. The issues involved with owning a zero-year-old Airbus A220 with engines that don't work.
So, they're going to have issues, but they're going to be very different issues.
[0:26:45] IP: They'll be different issues, and it'll be very comfortable inside. My experience with
Fokker has been very comfortable.
[0:26:51] JR: Only if you sit right next to the engine and make it as loud as possible.
[0:26:55] IP: There's that too.
Hey, let's go back to Southwest for a second and talk about the fact that today at the Skift
Aviation Forum in Dallas, Southwest said it's looking at DFW in perhaps 2025, mostly because,
or all because they're just running out of space at Love Field. So, kind of same thing they did in
Chicago. They basically ran out of space at Chicago's midway where they're by far the dominant
carrier and started flights up at O'Hare. So, I guess it's Dallas’s turn.
[0:27:29] JR: That's definitely interesting for an airline that just a few years ago would never
have considered a flight out of one of its core airports. I think it's a little different than the
Chicago situation. In Dallas, they just straight up run out of space at Dallas Love Field. So,
they're going a little down the street to DFW. Where in Chicago, I don't have to tell you that the
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markets for midway and O'Hare. They are very different parts of the city. There are some people
who I'm sure would never consider going to Midway, probably you. And there are some people
who would never consider going to O'Hare. There are different markets much like the case here
in New York or Southwest for a while operated flights out of Newark, in addition to LaGuardia
years after branching out from Islip way out on Long Island, which barely is even considered the
New York market. But I think that the move to DFW is a little bit different than the Chicago move,
which I think was more of a playing for a different market rather than DFW where they just they
need more runway.
[0:28:28] IP: They just need more space. Fair enough. Jason, you flagged this particular story
and what? Explain this.
[0:28:40] JR: This is a valid reaction. So, anyone who's followed the antics of the Lufthansa
Group over the last few years, is familiar with the still hypothetical, not real [inaudible 0:28:50]
business class product. It was announced the better part of a decade ago to much fanfare and it
looks very nice, nearly a decade ago.
[0:29:00] IP: A decade ago.
[0:29:01] JR: A decade ago and it was awarded and I'm air quoting here, awarded five stars by
Skytrax, and I'm still air quoting, which has since been removed because the product still does
not exist and that fifth star was again air quoting, awarded contingent on this product rolling out,
which it still has not. But the latest news is that somebody screwed up bad in Frankfurt and
didn't consider, huh, the 747 is an aircraft that does exist in our fleet.
The news is basically that I don't know if Lufthansa has actually confirmed this. This might be all
rumor at this point. But they will have to install their fancy new business class announced almost
a decade ago, in the main deck of the 747-8i, but keep the old business class on the upper deck
because it simply does not fit up there, since the width of the aircraft is a bit different, of course
than the lower deck. It's much narrower.
On top of that the new business class seats are so heavy, that Lufthansa will have to reportedly
add a 700-kilogram weight in the rear of the aircraft for weight and balance purposes that they'll
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have to offset to the added weight up and business class with literally, I don't know, bricks in the
rear of the aircraft that will not only result in the aircraft towing around dead weight, but also
reduce cargo capacity and possibly passenger capacity. It's just, really, just a stunning
development in a program that should be done by now, not just considering, “Oh, wait, it's not
going to fit on one of our aircraft that we have almost two dozen of. We should do something
about that.” The Myth of German efficiency, I think, is just that it's a myth at this point that it no
longer exists. We're not quite at New Berlin airport level of debacle and we're getting there.
[0:30:48] IP: But we're getting close.
[0:30:51] JR: We're getting there.
[0:30:55] IP: We're just one more screwed up away from Brandenburg.
[0:30:55] JR: Oh, that's not a benchmark you want yourself compared to.
[0:30:58] IP: In any way shape or form, it is not.
[0:31:01] JR: But they did it. They got that airport running. And even Lufthansa can figure this
issue out. It's just what is going on there?
[0:31:07] IP: At some point, let's see the product and put it on a plane.
[0:31:13] JR: Sure. But at the same time, I would not be shocked if the EU Commission got
involved here and say you cannot call your airline green or efficient, or carbon neutral if you are
artificially increasing the weight of your aircraft because your product is too heavy. That's kind of
shocking, and should raise all sorts of eyebrows, certainly raising my eyebrows. But I wouldn't
be shocked if it raises some official eyebrows.
[0:31:38] IP: It's also one of the things that like at this point, and I don't know the answer to this
question that I’m about to ask. But at what point do you say, “Okay, forget it. Let's start from the
beginning.”
© 2023 AvTalk 14
AVT 240 Transcript
[0:31:52] JR: Start from scratch. But the problem with doing that is that the supply chain
constraints on getting these fancy business class seats will set them back years and years and
years. So, this will be going from something that will hopefully be starting to roll out next year to
something that, let’s check back in and 2030, and I don't think Lufthansa can wait that long.
Sticky situation.
[0:32:15] IP: Yes, I guess there's no good answer here. It's just, get it on the planes and be
done with it.
[0:32:21] JR: Yes.
[0:32:20] IP: All right. You know what? Speaking of being done with it, I think we're done with
this episode.
[0:32:27] JR: Okay. Call it.
[0:32:28] IP: All right. Episode 240 is in the books. Thank you all so very much for listening. As
we begin the month of November, we will politely request that you wander over to wherever you
listen to your podcasts, and leave us a rating or review. It helps visibility of the show on
whatever platform you're listening to it. It helps other people find it and not for nothing. But it
brings a warm feeling to Jason's heart and mine. We really do appreciate it, and we really
appreciate everyone listening and tuning in each week.
[0:33:02] JR: I love reading the reviews, even the negative ones.
[0:33:06] IP: Sometimes the negative ones are more fun to read, but I certainly do enjoy the
positive ones as well.
[0:33:13] JR: Yes, especially so those.
[0:33:14] IP: Very much appreciated, if you would be so kind. This has been episode 240 of
AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always with –
© 2023 AvTalk 15
AVT 240 Transcript
[0:33:24] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2023 AvTalk 16