Belichick HOF drama, Monken to Cleveland and More Coaching Carousel Updates

00:00:00
Speaker 1: It's a tough sports not for everybody.

00:00:01
Speaker 2: You gotta be a little sick to love this game, and we got some sticks.

00:00:05
Speaker 3: Welcome to NFL Daily, where I can promise you I will not tear up during this podcast. My name is Greg Rosenthal. I'm with Ali Connolly. It's not Saturday, but it's close and it's the time of year that Ali Connolly loves almost as much as the regular football season. It's analyzing press conferences and assistant coach hiring season. Welcome OLLI, how's it going over there in Manchester.

00:00:31
Speaker 1: I'm doing good. When coaches get emotional about ball, it also gets me a little bit deary.

00:00:36
Speaker 3: It really is a little bit of a trend with these introductory press conferences. We don't have Todd Monkins press conference yet, but he is the new Browns coach.

00:00:46
Speaker 4: We're going to talk about that. But we'll talk about Jesse Minner and Joe Brady meeting the media.

00:00:51
Speaker 3: We'll talk about different assistant coach hirings. We will talk about your beloved and mine too, Ali, Who am I kidding? I got like four Belichick books behind me, including one by Steve Belichick Football scouting Methods. We'll talk about him getting snubbed from the Hall of Fame and just the reaction.

00:01:08
Speaker 4: And everything that's happening.

00:01:10
Speaker 3: And if we even have time, I think I'll I'll present my Hall of Fame vote if I had one, because a lot of people criticize, but I always say, like, if you say someone's a snub, you have to say who you would take out. So I will go through and make my picks. But it really is a crazy time of year before we kind of get into it. Ali like seeing the different coaching staffs come together in the battle for all the assistant coaches, and you have a better knowledge about, like the strength and weaknesses of a lot of these guys than most. When Mike McCarthy said that it's more challenging than ever to fill a coaching staff, and I'm watching what's going on the last few days, like, I think I agree with him, But what do you think he meant by that?

00:01:55
Speaker 1: I think what he maybe meant was a lot of the guys that he's will with befoll of aged out of the league because every single person he's interviewing or requesting to be dueing or hiring goal who was in his presentation to the Steelers of this is who I would go for, all people who have long standing connections with him. And then outside of Scott Tolz, it's a lot of experience. Experience can be great stuff need experience, but that could be an applausible explanation. It's not as though he's going off the reservation and bringing an influx of new ideas to his approach to running a team.

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Speaker 3: So I did Dave Danishek's show Football America. Everyone should check that out whenever it comes out. And I couldn't get my camera to work, so that's on my phone and everything. And that's the thing about McCarthy that I was pushing back on him because he was trying to like gass up the McCarthy higher And it's not so much just age in terms of energy, it's age in terms of fresh ideas and your connection to the risers within the league and who's on the cutting edge. And I think that was a huge problem for Bill Belichick at the end in the NFL and could be a problem for hires like Mike McCarthy. And I don't know where Todd Munkin fits on that spectrum, because yes, Todd Munkin at sixty years old, is a first time head coach in the NFL. It's been quite a journey. I don't think a lot of people remember that he's been in the Browns building before. They are quite familiar, not this regime with Andrew Berry, but Todd Munkin was the offensive coordinator in the Freddie Kitchens year, which was the year that kind of blew up the franchise and got Andrew Berry and everything in the building. And now he's back as the head coach. A surprising hire. I think everyone thought it was going to be one of the younger guys like Nate Steelhouse with the Rams, and if not, then it was possibly going to be Jim Schwartz. It turns out to be neither. And it sounds like Monkin's first order of business will be finding the defensive coordinator because it doesn't sound like Jim Schwartz wants to stay with him.

00:03:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, you say, people thought it would be Jim Schwartz as the fallback up, and I think Jim Schwartz is included in thinking that he was the fallback action. He walks out the building shouting to everyone within his shot that they'll never see him again. And you mentioned Mounkin being there as O see before that was the in which he was talking on the sideline to other coaches about what a disaster the building the Browns was, and so he comes back into the building and everything's going to be fixed. This is an interesting hiot thing because I really respect Top Monkin. I think you mentioned kind of the age and agent experience not being the barometer for they open to new ideas. He's as open to ideas, I think as any guy who's been around the game that long in the league and has recently been in college kind of pushing the game forward and being around, particularly defensively, some of the kind of the trend setting minds at all levels of the sport. And so we can tap into at least, if not those guys specifically, that kind of thinking, that kind of logic be as you approach not just the general scheme, but the work week and practice habits. So I admire Top Mounkin. I'm glad he's finally getting a shot. I do find it from the brown side slightly baffling. Why do you find it baffling? Let's let's actually just assume though that Sielhouse didn't want the job that's how I'm operating, because when we heard those finalists, it just.

00:05:11
Speaker 3: Felt like he was the favorite. And then Zach Jackson I listened to his podcast. He covers a team for the Athletic and you know his understanding was that Schelhouse in most of the candidates, but he was the most serious one. We're told that like the Browns felt like they had a good chance to keep Jim Schwartz under him, and that they wanted Jim Schwartz, and if anything, they were almost telling prospective candidates, you have to keep Jim Schwartz. And according to Zach, it sounded like Schelhouse had some real reservations, not just about how that relationship would work with Jim Schwartz, because it might be awkward for a young head coach, and just would he want his own guy if it's going to be his building. But he sounds like maybe he didn't quite believe the Browns, that like he didn't think Jim Schwartz would want to stay under him, and that that was maybe a part of the reason why he wasn't comfortable with the job.

00:06:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, I know Grant Udinsky dealt with the same thing where it's not just Schwartz, but it's like big chunks. The staff are told to you, this is who will be in certain positions, and I just don't know how you can approach that with a candidate. I get it with the young guys that you want to surround them with experienced people you who have no how and have done the job at a high level, particularly trying to replicate the Ben Johnson's spirit of bringing a former head coach who can help you deal with all kind of the under the hood issues that come with being a head coach. When you make that giant leap from coordinate the two head coach, it is different when it's a guy going for the same job as you. Then Ukuman's kind of the young whipper snapper and he thinks he knows way more bald than you, and you have to be the boss of that guy. I just felt like they needed someone, not even in that vein of let's go get the highlight, real oc type pass game coordinator you can design offense for us. I thought they needed real energy and someone who could just drive the building. I'm looking at them the same light as when Demiko went into the Texans, when Dan Campbell went into the Lions, and those two guys had an outstanding rollerdecks of coaches to call upon. They are unbelievable football brains in their own right, but they have an abundance of energy. And I just look at someone like Anthony Weaver and I think that guy is so intelligent, so smart, so crafty at the forefront of defensive design, even the play calling is in great book, can kind of picture what the sports should look like in twenty twenty six, and just has energy for days and we'll just be bursting with ideas and passion. I feel like they need someone to drive the franchise forward. But this is a frenchhip that runs from the top down. It's the owner, it's the GM trying to save his career and survive for his life. And getting someone in there who I think is maybe a bit more dispassionate in how you would run the whole program. I can just concentrate on coaching the football team.

00:07:40
Speaker 3: He will be great in front of a microphone. And maybe that was attractive to them, because to me, he's going to be very different than Kevin Stefanski. He's gonna have quotes. The media's gotta like what he brings to him. He's gonna be a little prickly with the players, He's gonna be a personality. The problem is, I think it's a situation where the GM does not ultimately have a long leash, which means maybe Todd Munkin will not have that long of a leash, and he's gonna have to show some proof of concept sooner than later, which is gonna be difficult with no offensive line in place, and we'll see who the quarterbacks are. But yeah, like he did fun stuff at Georgia. He did some fun stuff with Lamar Jackson. I actually was someone that was watching Conference USA OLLI in twenty fifteen when Todd Munkin was coach of the Year for the Southern miss Golden Eagles is it I forget what their name is, And he was doing some fun stuff there, So maybe maybe he'll be maybe he'll be good. I don't I actually don't think it's like a bad hire. It's just the process to get there was confusing.

00:08:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think is where the roster is at. I think if it was even slightly better and you had maybe more offensive pieces of settled offensive line, you could say this guy could maybe think it's the eight to nine wins in this division. Could we find a way of scrabbling through one season and being a playoff team, I think it would look different. I think he's a really really good offensive coach. Well for what they need, I just need they need a more general sense of direction and drive behind the franchise, amunking for all the great parts of how we coach, that's just not really what you get from him.

00:09:10
Speaker 3: So I'm watching that or thinking about that higher and then I start watching the Jesse Mintor press conference, and it's obviously very different. Mintor is younger. He's bringing some of that, especially in terms of schematics, youthful energy. But I also found it really interesting next to him on the stage where two men Eric Tacosta, who you would expect and Sashi Brown who came from that Browns building. Shout out to Sashi Brown, who is you know, one of the analytics kind of kings to get a GM job. And for our listeners who probably don't remember ten years ago, he was part of the sixteen Browns.

00:09:53
Speaker 4: Am I right? And I should be checking these things?

00:09:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was the sixteen Browns. The own sixteen Browns the O sixteen Wizards, correct, right, didn't they open the season terribly? Welsome was that too?

00:10:03
Speaker 3: He was running the Wizards for about four seasons and he's been in the Ravens building. But just we don't do comeback Executive of the Year. How about comeback Executive of the Year for Sascy Brown being on that stage and presenting a coherent idea of everything that happened. Look, Minter didn't get the people going. He wasn't nervous or anything. He's just not like a raw Rah sounding type of guy. But he has engendered a lot of loyalty from all the players that he's had over the years. They said that was important hearing from all the different people that have worked with Jesse Minter. Let's actually listen to Minter talking about his relationship with Lamar Jackson and some of the players that actually were involved in the coaching process.

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Speaker 5: Lamar and I have had multiple conversations. It's been great, it's been great to get to know him. I think relationships take time, and so you don't become the head coach of the Ravens and expect to have a deep relationship with anybody.

00:11:02
Speaker 4: So those take time.

00:11:03
Speaker 5: We've been working towards that already, we've had wonderful conversations. Look forward to many, many more.

00:11:10
Speaker 3: He also mentioned how excited he is to coach Kyle Hamilton. I think that's gonna be an awesome marriage, kind of comparing him to Derwin. James mentioned that Kyle Hamilton was part of a committee of players that was actually kind of involved in the coaching hiring process where they got their feedback, so it wasn't just Lamar Hamilton and some other veterans. I thought it was a good press covernence. We don't need to judge the press conference. What are you excited about or what were your thoughts? Kind of having watched what he said his vision for the Ravens was going to be.

00:11:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when Jesse Mintis talks in public, it's kind of moggding Spiel type as opposed to how he talks when he's either presenting him from a coach still behind the scenes speaking to play. So we got a lot of like the public facing Jesse Minte. I felt like to me he was far and away the best candidate in the cycle. I think he just views the game differently, And I don't mean just the general schemetic sense. It's a lot of ovally with Mike McDonald and other people. The way he approaches practice, the way he approaches the building is just different in new age and trying to push things forward to the point where Mike McDonald's who's leading the best defense in the NFL taking his team to the super Bowl. Went back to Michigan to find out, what is this guy doing there better than I did it when I was in NAZI, and then took that stuff back to the NFL saying he's doing things better than me in terms of how they manage the game week and so to me, putting that guy the head of your franchise, whether it works or not, we never know. I think it's just the right move if you're going to try and move on from a hard ball and say, well, we want to keep some of the identity the ravens, the common language how we view and evaluate players, but we want you in different ideas. That's what we're hearing with the Joe Brady higher rights, what we're hearing with a lot of these highs. This is the guy who actually practices what all the teams.

00:12:40
Speaker 3: Preach, and he was comfortable it wasn't like I thought he was stiff up there or anything. I just didn't have any like massive takeaways, so I'm not going to force it. Let's listen to Eric DaCosta, who was really making his first head coaching hire as the head of that front office, talk about the coaching search.

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Speaker 6: Steve challenged us a few weeks weeks ago to find the next coach who would be here for eighteen years and if we do our job, I won't be here, which is great.

00:13:12
Speaker 4: Was he paraphrasing Steve?

00:13:14
Speaker 7: Yeah?

00:13:14
Speaker 4: I think he was.

00:13:15
Speaker 1: Yes. Bashati said in his press conference he wants to win the SUP Bowl and get out as quickly as possible, so I think he was saying that's what Steve told him.

00:13:21
Speaker 3: Well, I also thought thee I misread it maybe as a quote that it was more of like, but shot, he's getting up there in years and who knows, And that would get to kind of the podcast that I've been doing with Colleen quite often, where we're talking about just being aware of death at all times.

00:13:37
Speaker 4: So shout out to Steve Bushotty for that. You never know.

00:13:40
Speaker 3: Look, I was really taken by DaCosta saying, actually, Jesse Minner had a lot of ground to make up because I kind of remember him in this scouting assistant role, and to be honest, it was like hard to imagine him as a head coach. I didn't really see him that way, but once we met in that change and also just he said hearing from a lot of people from around the league that have worked with him and about jesse Minner's growth, that basically he was not the same guy as he was when he was last in the Ravens building, but.

00:14:13
Speaker 1: At least gets to speak the language that gets them. A woman fuzzy because you're repeating back to someone how you do it is the right way to do it, that I have some maybe new ideas to do it different ways, And you look at some of the highest there's an awful lot of that going on, right why people like, yes, we are doing things pretty well. We've gone out to check all the other ideas, but actually what we do is going pretty good.

00:14:33
Speaker 4: It's a great point.

00:14:34
Speaker 3: It's why I'm gonna handle our Hall of Fame conversation and what I think about the voting process, you know, delicately later because I want to be part of that process eventually. But I think I like what you're doing, but I think we can adjust some things. Some actual news that came from it is jesse Minner said he will call the defense not a surprise and that they will both still report to ownership Steve Bashati. So it's not like DaCosta is getting x S power. They're keeping the same structure. Tacasta said that that was important because he said, look, we've won two super Bowls, We've won a lot of games that way. I looked at the relationship that as he knew some had with Brian Billick and then with John Harbaugh. We also heard that John Harbaugh texted them and said you should hire jesse Minner, which is interesting. What do you think about jesse Minner since we got yeah, and kind of the fit with this defense, in the personnel that they have right now.

00:15:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he's gonna mimic a lot of what Mike McDonald did before. I think the thing with Mint it is more I'm not a massive believer in like just the style of defense. Just philosophally, I like more of an all out attack aggressive defense. I like events Joseph style defense. Mint is a little bit more passive, a little bit more relaxed a little bit in the bluff pressure world, which is more aligned to Mike McDonald. So I think it's just gonna be a pretty much a Cobb and copy of that then comes down to the day to day play calling. He's just more of what will the infrastructure look like? And I think that will be pretty radically different than what John Hobball was doing at.

00:15:57
Speaker 4: The end, So it was very different him.

00:16:00
Speaker 3: Inner finishes his press conference almost immediately after that ends.

00:16:04
Speaker 4: It was pretty short.

00:16:06
Speaker 3: The Joe Brady press conference starts in Buffalo, and we're going to get to all the new news in terms of assistance and coordinators getting hired. But I wanted to go through the head coaches first, and this was a totally different vibe. Josh Allen is there. He is seen with crutches and a broken foot, you know, showing up to the press conference and showing up for his guy, Joe Brady. It was very emotional. Actually, let's listen to Joe Brady getting emotional talking about, you know, how much his players mean to him.

00:16:39
Speaker 2: Lastly, our players, my guys. I'm so appreciative of you guys being here today. Thank you for allowing me to be my self playing for me and being you with us. I may be calling plays still, but I'm no longer the offensive cord atter Max right.

00:17:11
Speaker 1: The defensive and special teams guys.

00:17:13
Speaker 2: One day. I can't wait to grow our relationship right and deepen it and understand who you are and that team you to grow that, And I can't wait to go out to practice right and when you get it, when you.

00:17:24
Speaker 1: Get a takeaway and be able to celebrate with you. Just like I was.

00:17:26
Speaker 2: Talking a lot to you, I gotta get after Spencer Brown the same way. And I'm in it with you guys now right. I can't wait to do that.

00:17:36
Speaker 3: Your thoughts. That was one of many emotional moments earlier on. He really struggled to compose himself, looking at his wife and everything. What were your takeaways from the Joe Brady introduction.

00:17:49
Speaker 1: It's what I expected. He's always being a phenomenal public speaker. He always gets emotional talking about football. He'll do the coaching clinics circuit with like twelve guys in Louisiana and start tearing up. So he just really is a past and loves this thing. And I think that's really cool and awesome and It's cool to see him have that kind of emotion going into the thing. I thought Brandon Bean's comments coming out of it were probably more impactful and telling moving forward, just him noting on their process. All these guys say were aligned. We had a great process. You know, we hired a guy who's already stood near us, even though we dumped on the coaching staff last week. But he made note of some and that is really impactful when you go through these series of interviews, particularly when you've had a guy in there for a long time, which is go out and find all the smart people and steal as much intel as you can. What does their sports science look like, what does their practice schedule look like? Even if we know we're hiring Joe and they claim they didn't, but I have a good sense that I think that they knew that going into letting McDermott go, let's go find good information from everyone else. And sometimes in those interviews when you know, particularly the sham Rooney rule ones that a lot of these teams do, you maybe will not give all your great information in those interviews if you don't think you're a real candidate, but you can gather as much intel as possible from other really smart people to feed into a process when you've had one voice for as long as they have. I think that it's a really good way of doing it. And you compare that to the Steelers who just did not do that. It's like one zoom conversation and we're moving on with the thing. And while hiring the gal he wanted to hide because of where he was born and grew up. That's not using the process to the full extent that you can. So I've been critical of Brandon being the Ross construction, but I think that that you compared that one process of a high that I think is pretty good to very good to a pretty poll on in Mike McCarthy, and you can see the difference.

00:19:28
Speaker 3: Da Costa in Baltimore talked about that too, and they actually went even further because they started the process earlier. They interviewed like eighteen people, and he expressively said, especially with these zoom calls, like we're just trying to get as much information as we can.

00:19:41
Speaker 4: We're going to take advantage of that.

00:19:43
Speaker 3: Period where we had to wait to talk to anyone in person, and we got a lot of things that were really helpful to us. He talked about it openly. That is fascinating, Brady. He really kind of threaded the needle of giving Sean McDermott a TI on a credit and saying how important Sean McDermott was for changing the culture and that we're trying to build on that, and that he accomplished great things. And you know, I think saying the right things. I think this is going to be a very popular press conference in terms of just, you know, assuaging the fears of the Bills fans. Brady said, you know, he knows what the expectations are in Buffalo.

00:20:23
Speaker 2: I understand that I'm walking into this role in a much better position than coach McDermott did. I am not naive to that. I also understand that the expectations are higher as well. I didn't take this job to shy away from expectations. I sure as hell did not do that. I'm embracing it. I'm understanding it, and I'm from meeting it full on. I know what I simmed up for, and we're going to embrace it because no one rises to low expectations. I want what the city wants.

00:20:54
Speaker 1: Let's go, he sold me, Alli, He sold me and Joe Brady want a football great curses, and he went so hard to drop an F bomb them and caught himself at the final second, which I appreciate, and I admire him giving Sean mcdumm at some props after the guy who just gave him the job spent last week doing anything but give Sean mcdumm at props. So I thought that was pretty classy. I do think with Brady, you know, I think their whole project there. The idea was, if we're going to stabilize, as a worst case scenario, we have Josh Allen's top five offense in the league. Joe Brady can deliver that for us, and then just on the margins, you get the right officiating call, the right bounce of wall that should put us in a championship game. I think that that is a fair assessment. And if you looked at the design of the offense that he installed and where it's at compared to the rest league, if he was just doing that for the Cardinals, and even if they were say fourteenth the league success rate, whatever number you want to use, you would say that's a really attractive external candidate. He just happens to be with us and then has the relationship with Josh Allen. So I do think you can start stacking things up and say it makes a bunch of sense why you would just say, let's give this a shot for a couple of seasons. If it doesn't work, we'll still have Josh Allen in his prime and we could maybe look elsewhere. So I've come more around on the high than when it was initially announced.

00:22:02
Speaker 4: Okay.

00:22:02
Speaker 3: I appreciate that because I didn't have a lot of familiarity with Joe Brady public speaking, and by the end, I'm like, Okay, I get why he's bewitched.

00:22:12
Speaker 1: The national media member. The master marketer is Joe Brady. And I appreciate that the.

00:22:18
Speaker 3: Cynically look at that. You know you're you're there in the snow in Manchester. You could cynically look at that.

00:22:23
Speaker 4: I'm here in.

00:22:24
Speaker 3: LA and I'm thinking, Okay, maybe this guy's gonna pop.

00:22:26
Speaker 1: He's good, He's got the goods. The thing I will say is what I appreciate about him is he gets to Buffalo what they did on offense that we've talked about together for two years now, with the smash mouth spread infusion of getting the bigger bodies on the field, but bringing a lot of the stuff he did at LSU together was a directive from Sean McDermott that that's how he wants it to look, and then he had the chops to actually pull it together and make it look excellent for a couple of seasons with all the caveats that Josh Allen bails him out and everything looks pretty good. If you call him plays for Josh Allen, I am interested. Then well, if that's a directive from the guy who's kind of viewing the game from a CEO, you know, ten thousand foot view, can you step into that role and have that same lens offense defense? And that's why I think the DC hire is going to be so impoltant.

00:23:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's huge.

00:23:08
Speaker 3: And I meant to mention with Jim Schwartz because he's already getting talked about as a potential candidate in Buffalo. San Francisco is another attractive job that is out there. I don't think I'm burning anything by saying, you know, I heard some whispers that like maybe he could even be a candidate for a team that currently has someone in place and would displace it. I don't know who that would be, but he is an interesting name to drop into it all. And yeah, like, on one hand, you could look at Joe Brady as a little political. He got a lot of credit for, you know, coaching up like the greatest college group of skill position talent ever assembled and now coaching up Josh Allen on the other hand, like, maybe maybe he is a guy. He did strike me as a guy that maybe he is a guy like a Brian Schottenheimer who might be better suited to run a building than he actually is as just like a pure schematic game plan caller, which I got that feeling from Schottenheimer, and I think that's that's been born out a little bit.

00:24:10
Speaker 4: So those are some positives. Also.

00:24:11
Speaker 3: Josh Allen obviously loved some Josh Allen, though texted him they wouldn't talk during the interview process, and he texted him afterwards what was it? It was something like, I didn't get you this job. You earned this job yourself. Good when you.

00:24:25
Speaker 1: Got he is in Carolina earned him, not jumped it. Theos a stunding goal in place with Josh Allen the gun of the job.

00:24:31
Speaker 3: By the way, Josh Allen, some news there he talked afterwards, and he said he had a fifth minute tarsl broken bone in his foot, and he played through it during the season, but he aggravated it against the Browns, which I think we knew, and so he was playing through it in the playoffs and now he's recovering from that injury. But Josh Allen's happy, and maybe Bill's fans, like Eric Roberts behind the glass, they're happy too.

00:24:58
Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break. We're going to come back.

00:25:00
Speaker 3: We're going to go through the coordinator, hire some assistant hires, and talk Belichick in the Hall of Fame after this.

00:25:13
Speaker 4: Back on NFL Daily.

00:25:14
Speaker 3: As I mentioned in the seventies Fahrenheit twenties, as you guys would say, there, Alli, I'm feeling better about the Bills move, why not help get your friends hired? I mean, I had one full time hire that I could use that it attended ended up being the only one at the NFL, and I used it on my friend Chris Wesley and it was the best empire I ever had.

00:25:41
Speaker 1: You know what you're can yeah, and you can trust them and they don't go running to the heed you're in leak on you all the time.

00:25:47
Speaker 3: You know I'm in. I'm in on Joe Brady. Now, let's talk about some of the coordinators. Although I do want to at some point get what Allie teasingly said, he can't even say what his real thoughts were Joe Brady or that press commerce something. There was something about that press commence that you're holding out on me.

00:26:05
Speaker 1: That that'll be when we do NFL Daily after Duck and we're like full five pints deep, and then we can't release all the Joe Brady tapes. That's the show. We're the outsiders. We don't we don't need to worry about what they're going to say about us. We can bury Brian Dable if we want, but there's really no reason too. I think he's a good offensive coordinator higher for the Tennessee Titans. When we last talked about this, it was not for certainty. He was still up for a couple other jobs, so we said, let's table that until it's actually happening. He's also going to bring his offensive line coach from New York with him to Tennessee. Has some talent to work with up front.

00:26:41
Speaker 3: Ultimately, if you kind of look at the teams in the trickiest situations coming into the offseason. I get the idea that Titans fans would have a lot of optimism of Robert Sala Brian Dable. The front office is a little more clear with Borgonzi is now in charge. How are you feeling about the Titans overall and especially day Ball and cam Ward mixing and matching.

00:27:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't love the fit with cam Ward. I think it's almost too on the nose too obviously pair kind of big name coordinator with former first round draft pick. But for the actual development of what does cam Ward need in his game, I don't think it's going to be that additive to what he does. Brian Abell come in, it'll be a super spread offense, a lot of easy buckets, a lot of kind of spread option principles, similar to the final Embers of the time with Josh Allen, where it's all super spread stuff. We already know cam Wall can do that stuff. That's what he did in college, That's what he made it, and that's where he flashed and had all the crazy highlight throws of the Titans last season. He needs to develop in a full field, true professional offense, and I just don't think Brian Dabole is as willing or interested in running a full field professional offense anymore. A lot of under center, turn the back, play action, heaviest sets, trying to design mismatches that way, sprinkling in tempo with bigger sets. It's still a bit slimmed down, a little twenty sixteen, I would say, by its logic. And so I think what will happen is Campbell will put up some solid numbers and people say it's a good high, but how does it get us to being a team that could really challenge someone and freak out playoff caliber defenses. I just don't think that fits that Unlessdabel wants to evolve, and coaches can always evolve an out in fresh ideas. And I love Brian Dable as a guy, even though I know he's a unique kind of guy and he's not everyone's flavor. He's my kind of guy, and I just don't for me, it's leaning into the bad habits of Camwell more than is trying to progress and develop the player.

00:28:28
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll make the argument on the other side, what if he is a little bit and this is a bad example, because look, Greg Roman is an epithet to some Ravens fans and especially Patrick Clay. I'm thinking about Lamar Jackson era, but may maybe what if he's almost like a similar analog to Well, he'll juice him up in what he does really well for now and he's not as long he maybe he doesn't wind up being his long term guy. You just got to find your I guess Todd Monkin in this scenario, maybe sooner than the Ravens did.

00:29:02
Speaker 1: But that would need to include some kind of development path before you get to the next guy. And I find that to be deeply insulting to Lamar Jackson, who played in a pure progression offense in college football. That was an NFL passing system from Petrino, which is not what Camwell played. And he played in an all out air raid offense. You see one side of the field, you throw at one side the field. Brian Dabele is still running the highest volume off just half field read offense in the NFL. You just can't play that way anymore when everyone's moving and rotating and rolling and you can't figure out what anyone's doing. I mean, these guys are done press conference after press conference right talking about this very issue of going to a full progression read type offense. That's not the way Dable sees things. He wants to have a keen, critical eye on. He knows where the ball is going, get the snap. It's control freak type stuff and trying to limit any exposure to the quarterback. And I think Camwarard will look good in that. I'm not saying it's not going to work where you get the touchdowns in the yardage and the numbers look much better in year two. I'm talking about the development of the player to go and be maybe more on the top eight players in the league, which I think he has truly the potential to do. If you can going in on some of the rhythm bas parts of his game, make him more consistent throw it, and then build in the kind of upside highlight real stuff. The development path should be what Kaylen Williams did with Ben Johnson, where you get all the structured greatness and then you can have some free lunch responsibilities within that Jared Goff style offense. And that's where I believe they should have looked.

00:30:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all fair, and it's a good point on where Lamar was. It's more the idea of well, can he supercharge him for my own enjoyment because for everything that Greg Roman gets picked on, that Lamar, that early lamar Greg Roman. You know, for the first like eighteen months of it was fun to watch, and I do think this could be fun to watch. But I hear what you're saying on the long term growth and cam Ward is not starting from the same spot. He still has a lot of developing to do, so does Aaron Glenn as a head coach. I don't know if he's going to get the time to do it.

00:30:55
Speaker 4: We've learned that, you.

00:30:57
Speaker 3: Know since we last tape. Brian Duker is going to be his defensive court. He reached out to John Gruden as a potential offensive coordinator option, or at least was going to be an option in terms of some part of the offensive staff. Just a bizarre series of events. Zach Rosenblatt did a good job kind of pointing it out from the athletic of that. Initially, Aaron Glenn said he's not going to call the defensive plays. They interviewed eight different guys. Duker was not even one of those eight guys. Wink Martindale was the favorite for the job. I think he expected to get the job. They changed their mind at the last second. So they've spent three weeks on this process. Duker is even one of the nine people interviewed. Then after Martindale blows up, they interview him the next day and hire him that that day, basically, And so it doesn't give you a lot of confidence that you're firing eight or nine guys at the last second and hiring you know, this guy. And now Aaron Glenn is going to be calling the defensive plays and Frank Wright is apparently the favorite for the offensive coordinator job.

00:32:03
Speaker 1: It's just preposterous. I mean, what was in the pitch deck when he got the job. He was supposed to come and arrive to be Rah Rah Instill, a confidence CEO type, gonna run the whole building. And what was the blueprint? This cannot be it week Martindale and Aaron Glenn share no commonality in defensive style zero. And you go into negotiations post interview. Let's get into contract talks, then pull the ripcord because you decide, well, I'm going to call the plays and I don't understand Wink Martindale's defense, So let me go and get my buddy and I'll call the plays. I mean, it's almost just insulting to the profession to do what he did to the staff of telling everyone they're going to be back then actually you're out late in the cycle. Just totally unprofessional to then go to TenneT Engstrand and say, well, you can stay on the staff, but we're gonna try and bring John Ruden as a senior advisor to help design the offense. You won't call the plays, and then you have to say to the boss, well, then what will my job be? What was my role in the building week to week? Okay, yeh, scratch that. You're out? Then where is the logic? Where's the thinking? And then the default ant is going to be I'll get my buddy for the defense to carry the bottles and I'll design everything. And then I'm going to hire Frank Reich as the OC.

00:33:11
Speaker 3: The list for the OC candidates is pretty wild. It's Darryl Bevell, who we remember from his time in Seattle's Ronald Curry, Greg Roman getting interviewed there Lunda Wells from the Cowboys.

00:33:24
Speaker 4: I believe he's a tight ends coach. I'm not sure.

00:33:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:33:29
Speaker 4: It's also hard when you go back.

00:33:30
Speaker 3: There's some clips going around of Glenn talking about how it took them a while to put together the coaching staff last year, but you had to really look hard for the right guys, and this was supposed to be sort of the expertise of Glenn is that he's been in the NFL a long time and that he's going to be great at building staff. That was one of the best things that Dan Campbell certainly did in Detroit, was like know the right guys to hire, and it really feels like they're flailing and just making up as they go along.

00:33:58
Speaker 4: It's depressing if you're a.

00:34:00
Speaker 1: And it now feels like chasing names to satisfy someone else, which is where I'll give Auron Glenn a little bit of a cushion, right that the names on the list are names that someone you maybe isn't in contact with the spoile at day to day, but has owned a team for a long time, would recognize the names of guys who were successful even a semi generation to go.

00:34:16
Speaker 3: So, speaking speaking of familiar names, Patrick Graham, who's bounced around a lot as a defensive coordinator, is going to be the Steelers defensive coordinator. I thought it was telling that Art Rooney and Mike McCarthy said how it was important for them to maintain the Steeler way, which was a three four defense they wanted to They literally were saying, like, we want to run the same defense. It's been effective for so long. Why do we want to change that? And I'm thinking that was the most expensive defense in the league and it wasn't effective this year. But Patrick Graham can can run that system. What do you think about hit his fit with Pittsburgh.

00:34:53
Speaker 1: It's also truly not what they've run. As you know, no one just runs one front for the entire game, and Mike McCarthy's two smiled. And I think that was like red meat to the local media that we're going to maintain the steel And I think red meat for the ownership too. Yes, I agree with that. Yes, you probably say that in your first meeting with them and they go, okay, put that in the tech in the check box. He's from Pittsburgh, his dad loves the team, he runs the three four. Great, let's hire the guy. Let's not speak to anyone else. Patrick Gray might have a funny relationship with because I think one off design wise, he's as good as there is in the league. And I've I make this point all the time, and then Raiders fans will say to me, well, when why do we keep getting beat over the head defensively? And I say, great point. I maybe I'm digging through the manutter of the game too much and not recognizing the fact they get throttled over the head all the time. So it's like a pressure coach in a world of pressure in this guy's football. I really think he's an A plus design type guy, but you cannot ignore just the general facts. And I get they've had tons of issues throughout his time there in Vegas, one with Pete Carroll being not allowed to call his own defense radically transformers defense doesn't even understand half of what's going on there in terms of the verbiage, and then obviously just not having the talent the plays. I think when he's had a mudicum of talent all three levels, they've been fairly okay. This is by far the best group he will have wont with, And so I would have it as like a bee higha that I think he's better than. If you just put together a table shaw of like defensive metrics with his groups. They won't tell the full story of what the potential could be with him as your DC.

00:36:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's managed to keep a DC job somewhere for seven straight years. This will be eight Miami one year, two for the Giants, and then four for the Raiders. At no point did he ever have a great roster. But at no point did he really have a good defense. So that's like a lot that's a track record. A lot of them were average, they weren't like, they weren't bad with the Giants and the Dolphins. But this is the best group. I'm interested to see it because I think this would be a little bit of proof of concept. Okay, here's Patrick Graham getting creative with a better group of players, and so we shall see how that looks. The Chargers made an interesting higher and we'll fire through these last couple but get to the Hall of Fame. But they hired Western Michigan defensive coordinator Chris O'Leary, And look, he was part of this tree. He was in that building a couple of years ago as a safety's coach. So he's kind of doing the thing that Jesse Minter did, like back and forth from college and then back into the warm, loving embrace of the Harbas. But Jim Harbaugh has a really good track record where you kind of have to give him the benefit of the doubt of hiring good coaches. If he has a secret sauce like that, that has to be a big part of it.

00:37:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what with men to back of Georgia State eons ago, twelve years ago at this place, I just fascinated by in this May Bowl, the Nationalowans. But this kind of lend lease program that the Hallballs that developed between college and the pros. And I think coach development is rarely of a discussed it's always played development. And we now are in an araway. What's the most recent OC all the longest tenured OC in the league is like what twenty twenty four, twenty twenty three, something like that. So you have to have a development program for the coaches and them say, well, you're a really talented safeties coach. We want you to prepare it to cold plays. We only have three preseason games, but maybe we give you a couple of series go back down to college for you go and get that skill set, then come back to us. And it's kind of predetermined going in and doing that for him Baltimore with Michigan. Hubble replicating that going over to LA I think it's really fascinating the way they've hit on a market inefficiency. I think that I'm surprised that the teams haven't just said, Alabama will be off feed a team, let's send three staff members there, aye, and then call them back up to the big leagues.

00:38:28
Speaker 3: Well, I think that was a huge part of Belichick's success back in the day, which is why again I think it's a young man's game. Is he was so good at developing coaches. He had a very specific idea of how he was going to develop coaches. That can't last forever. But this is kind of a new school way to do it. Wait, this is not the directional Michigan University or college that.

00:38:49
Speaker 4: You worked for. Is it the Michigan it is?

00:38:52
Speaker 1: Indeed it is.

00:38:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. Oh, so he's your guy? You do you do you have?

00:38:58
Speaker 3: I mean, okay, so we should get excited about Chris Leary from Western Michigan. I should I should have known that's where Ali was once on staff.

00:39:04
Speaker 4: Is that correct?

00:39:05
Speaker 1: That is that is correct?

00:39:06
Speaker 4: Wow?

00:39:07
Speaker 3: All right, shout out to what's the nickname of the team, the Western Michigan, the Broncos. The Broncos. All right, let's go Broncos. Speaking of which, Wow, that was not on purpose. What a transition. I thought it was fascinating that Bo Nicks I just had to get this into the show, called his own press conference.

00:39:26
Speaker 4: This week.

00:39:28
Speaker 3: We find out that the Broncos fired Joe Lombardi. By the way, so he's gone. We can talk about that for a second, but I do want to say that Bo Nicks calling his own press conference to directly contradict his own coach means it is time for delivering results presented by uber eats. When football makes you hungry, order uber eats. I've never seen a quarterback do that. That is delivering results as a leader. Let's listen to Bo Knicks talk about his injury.

00:39:55
Speaker 7: Nothing predisposed, nothing that was there originally. I might have gotten confused. Didn't have any predisposed issues. Man, My ankles were feeling really good. I don't think he really should share how many surgeries I've had in the past, to be honest with you, but because I don't, you know, he doesn't really even know that.

00:40:16
Speaker 3: I just wanted this story to not go by without the rest of the country hearing it because Broncos fans are all about this story for the last twenty four hours, but it's not going to really break through. But it really was fascinating to me that Bownicks had two points to two bones to pick basically that he was not predisposed to this injury, whatever that means, like that it was some sort of chronic thing that was going to happen regardless, and that Sean Payton shouldn't be talking about the amount of surgeries that he had.

00:40:43
Speaker 4: Back in college. Love it.

00:40:45
Speaker 1: It's just classic chilling Payton. If I told you before on siteln seeing a coach reveal too much medical information about one of his plays, you'll first overall pick would have been chilling Payinton.

00:40:54
Speaker 4: That's fair.

00:40:55
Speaker 3: Sean Payton does like to share a lot, and you always got to think about, like, well, why did he share it? And I think it's because he was trying to make the case that it's not my fault. I called him for that that run that got his ankle broken and ruined our Super Bowl chances, which he hasn't really taken any heat with for in the first place, which is fine.

00:41:15
Speaker 4: It's football, it's bad luck.

00:41:16
Speaker 3: But maybe that was subconsciously or consciously what he was doing by saying these things.

00:41:22
Speaker 1: Even that defense is a mess because if it's predisposed, how would you only just discover it? And then why would you be calling so many design quotes about runs late in the season if you believe it was a predisposed since he could have designle. If anything, it buries you in a deeper grave than you were trying not to dig.

00:41:38
Speaker 3: And I think it was also like a little unfortunate because the person asking the questions about how he had gotten three surgeries previously even got the question wrong because Peyton had said two previous surgery. They had gotten too previous surgeries, So it was framed a little incorrectly, which made Peyton look even worse. I just wanted to throw that out there for the Broncos fans who are always getting angry about everything.

00:42:02
Speaker 1: And he may have meant to be fair pre existing some kind of handline fracture they did not know about until they went in, but he's the way he phrased it was like it'd been a long term thing and the full bows haven't defended oucuzations of being injury.

00:42:13
Speaker 3: Pro it's I we're maybe too far in the weeds where we're past the point of interest for most fans. But I got to give Sean Payton credit because they had to. The PR staff had to have checked with Sean Payton of like, hey, man, I know the season's over, been over. You said goodbye yesterday, you did the press conference yesterday.

00:42:34
Speaker 4: Bo just texted us like an hour ago.

00:42:37
Speaker 3: And wants to do a zoom press conference out of nowhere that we're just going to alert our guys to last minute. I think he's probably gonna address what you said about his injury, like is that cool? And Sean Pain's a yeah, whatever, just let it, let him be happy. So I'll give I'll give Sean Payton a little credit there. Did you have any thoughts on, by the way, him cleaning out his off defensive staff, including his coordinator Joe Lombardi, but a couple of the position coaches too, including Kirie Kolbert, who was one of my favorite Dynasty League draft picks back in like two thousand and six. I did not know he was on that staff, but he fired a lot of the staff right after the season, which is interesting for a team who I thought played well on offense.

00:43:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there were maybe a play or two away from making the Super Bowl. And then he's pretty savage about it by clearing out guys who've been with him a long time, and then those guys saying publicly like I knew this was coming for a while too. Even if we made the whole dance, I think we would have been out. And but we do criticize guys for all the Sean Payton this of it. And you can think whatever you want about Sean Payton. We criticized Belichick. We just talked about Mike McCarthy being really insular. I think the Chiefs have beg a tad bit to insula in the mid run of their dynasty. He's at least saying like, Okay, I've been with these guys for a long time. We've kind of tapped all the resources for this part of the span of kind of the Broncos rebuild, of bringing some competency from the building after the Hacket debacle. Now let's maybe press along. And he's got all these young stuff. Is that I'm sure he wants to promote and keep in house because they're all up for jobs elsewhere.

00:44:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, Davis Webb in particular has been up for head coaching jobs. He would be a strong candidate, you would think, to get elevated to offensive coordinators. So that could be what Peyton is doing there. That was delivering results presented by Uber Eats. When football makes you hungry, get game day deals on Uber eats, the official on demand delivery partner of the NFL.

00:44:24
Speaker 4: Order.

00:44:25
Speaker 3: Now, all right, let's stop right there, actually, because I have a feeling we're going to go along on this Hall of Fame Belichick talk. Take one more break and we'll be back in a second. Let's get to the main event forty five minutes in. How dare they keep our beloved Bill Belichick out of the Hall of Fame. I'm trying to muster the same amount of outrage that Jimmy Johnson and really everyone around the football community has had over the last few days. Actually, let's we can throw up if you're watching on YouTube that the tweet from Jimmy Johnson, which which I really enjoyed because it was a quote tweet of a Kayami Fairbairn field goal from three weeks ago where he cut the lead to five. Good times, uh, and what he said was I would bet that if the Hall of Fame voters were public, very few of the asses that did not vote for Bill Bill Belichick would come forward. Already some are lying about their vote. Jimmy Johnson, what a what a great friend to have Ali in your corner, A great friend to have, great for us who want to be in this camp too. And then one of the greatest to ever do it all levels of the game jumps out there in front of all of us and says, I'll take the shield. Let's do this, goes out publicly and starts taking shots of Pollion and Tony Dungee about spy gay and why he.

00:45:56
Speaker 1: Learned to do stuff that became spi gay. In Bill Belichick's era, loved that, love him, but in names to it, I mean, it's just deeply insulting. I think everyone knows that. Clearly a massive mess up in terms of the process, in terms of maybe some bias, whether it's media members or people who competed against Bill Belichick. He's so clearly not just the slam dunk first ballot Hall of Famer. He's on the mount rushmorev greatest coaches to ever do at any level of the sport, and it really does hurt me for him. Now, I do think your point that you've made before on social media about the pr for him is a great point. But what does hurt me is how much he's obsessed with the history of the game and how much it will bother him. No one cares more that when they did the NFL one hundred series on NFL films and he's just like weeping about the wing team the nineteen twenties and those great Yale teams. It means so much to him, and so to not have that happen for whatever reason, whether it's politics, craft, whatever the conspiracies are, it does hurt me for him that there's always going to be this little buffer even when he goes in that it may be a little bit awkward.

00:46:58
Speaker 3: Yes, they hit him where it hurts in the end, and I agree. I wanted to make that point as part of like a tweet that used every single character. I was like, something had to go that got cut out. Was kind of like, this will hurt him in a way that I don't know if it's intentional. I think a lot of the reasons that people put out there could be part of it. In terms of him not being friendly with the media. But I do think it was more of a combination of yes, like a handful of people maybe on there that had a little bit of an anti Belichick bias. Bill Polian says that the NFL Hall of Fame has confirmed to him that he did vote for Belichick, after saying he wasn't sure he didn't remember if he voted for Belichick initially, to which I would say, and this is my bigger issue with the whole process is if you can't remember your vote two weeks later, you shouldn't have a vote. And I just think there's too many people with these vot votes that no longer cover the league. And I think there can be some voters that could be represented that way, but I think you got to have more diversity. And sometimes diversity isn't just having people of different color and gender, which this list could absolutely use more of, but also of different ways of thinking about the sport and different age groups. Like, yes, you should have covered the league for a good amount of time before you're a Hall of Fame voter. But I went through the list and it's pretty random. Fifteen selectors are not even really in the mix. Covering football now fifteen out of fifty and many more if you were choosing a journalist to represent that city, there's some there's some weird, weird picks.

00:48:54
Speaker 1: They just say as it is. It's pathetic and embarrassing. They have a lot of opinion columnists who've not coverd the spall for a long time doing it, and it really should be people who are dedicated to the history of the game. It doesn't matter what age they are in that respect. To me, I do think you do have to have a real selection of people on there on the older side, just because when you get into the veterans community, it's gonna be a lot of young people even around your age, Greg, who maybe will not have seen these players play in their prime. So I totally understand that side of things, but it needs to be someone were's is not unfortunately here with us. But that is the ideal candidate of someone who is so dedicated to learning and understanding the history of the game, would have real opinions, would go to bat for people, and that is the kind of person that you're ideally looking for. And does it matter that you have to have one representative of covering every single team I mean that to me almost doesn't make sense that if you're going into the Veterans Committee, I'd rather just have people who are historians of the game, really care about it, still actively follow it day to day. To have opinion colonists from the early two thousands who don't like Belichick because they were Team Tom all the way through is utterly bizarre. To have people not recuse themselves because they were getting their as kicked by Bill Belichick year after years they had to go and change all the rules that way, or cry about some cheating scandal that didn't exist. I just find it completely baffling. And even the process of well, there's five people up for it, you only get to pick three. So now you get this weird situation where you've got the people who don't cover the sport have a gripe with Bill personally, the people who competed against them and may have a cribe. Then people trying to kind of work their votes around to make sure someone they like get in because they think Bill Belichick is going to have enough votes to get in. Is how you get yourselves into this complete debacle. And it's just not what the Hall is supposed to be. About either the physical Hall of Canton or just the Hall in general should be much more than that. And they've let the great institution down.

00:50:42
Speaker 4: Greg Yeah, and do they know ball like?

00:50:45
Speaker 3: I think that'sould be part Like if it's gonna be the Hall of Fame, I think you got to have the best of the best. And maybe that a lot of them were better candidates at different points of their current but maybe not. Some of them are not really locked into the NFL as their main thing. For instance, Kansas City Star columnist Vahi Gregorian wrote a column about why Belichick didn't get his vote, which I appreciated because at least it gave the thought process. I don't agree with his thought process at all. It alluded to what you're just talking about. He wanted to get the veterans in. So to explain it to the listeners, you have the modern era candidates, and there's fifteen finalists and five of those maximum can get in. And then you have the Veterans Committee candidates, and as you said, there's five potential people that could have been.

00:51:41
Speaker 4: Put onto the list.

00:51:42
Speaker 3: They were the finalists essentially, but there's they're in three different buckets, three x players. One quote contributor and one former coach, and so those five men are competing for the same three spots. On top of that, they changed the way all this was changed a couple of years ago, where once you get to that part of the proceedings, you need an eighty percent approval to get in, and so do the math.

00:52:12
Speaker 4: It's really hard to do if.

00:52:13
Speaker 3: People are splitting their votes and you can only vote for three And it turned out last year that we just had a way smaller Hall of Fame class than ever. We didn't have as many of the ex veterans Committee players or coach Mike Shanahan's still waiting, and it created a situation where just like less people are coming in. So all of that can be true that they absolutely need to change the bylaws and the way that they decided to change it a couple of years ago when they thought too many people were getting in, now to few were getting in. But it makes zero sense. And here's where I really struggle with it. It's like Ken Anderson never deserved to go in over Bill Belichick. There's no way. You always have to vote for the person that deserves it the most, and these three veterans, by definition weren't voted in for twenty five straight years. Forget about being first ballot, they weren't first fifteen ballots. That's when you come off the ballot. And of course Bill Belichick should be in as a no brain. We don't even need to like make the case for Bill Belichick. But it's something I've been surprised actually there is this much outrage about I had a bad barometer. I'm like, oh, oh, this is nice. Everyone's just saying everything, so I don't even feel like I have to. They actually are even more outrage for me because knowing how crazy and out of touch some of the voters are and how crazy the process is, it was still shocking to me. But I think it was a little less shocking or surprising to me than a lot of the people who aren't as dialed into it, and maybe that caused the outrage. I was just like, I can't believe they pick this up, but actually, like I kind of can see how it happened, as stupid as it is, so go for it. Jimmy Johnson and every single show and everything out there, like, I'm glad you got this one because it's it's just obvious how bad it is.

00:54:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, the process is a mess. To not have it just be yes no. Why you have to tear different variations of Hall of famers as you said, How you can even do that anyway and not wind up with Bill being the one on your list Across the board with the guys on there is a joke. But to not have it be yes no. To have a fifty person selection committee, I think is way too small, and to have the names they have on there is frankly embarrassing. You look at some of the people you've read off. I've covered the sport fifteen years. I've worked in the sport for many of those years as a coach or as a scout. I've not heard of some of those people outside of last time the list came out of who the voters were. They don't cover the sport actively now. Bill Pollion knows way more about football than we do. I think having someone like that on the committee should be there. But you should if you have a personal beef with someone, recruits yourself. Now with Bill Pollion, you know, does he have the ego to to accept he should recruit himself and recognize his bias. I doubt it. But if you have a big enough voting pool, you can at least mitigate some of those concerns. And I'm still not buying by the way Pauline is saying he can't remember then releasing going on serious XM and reading a well prepared statement that he had to read on the air about getting in touch with the with the Hall of Fame. If we're doing any sort of conspiracy theory, I'm guessing he confirmed the votes and never coming out because for some reason they're not going to release the ballots because they want Because it's this shrouded mystery of all these former columnists, opinion colonists deciding who's going to the Hall of Fame. Which matters, which goes on the tombstone, it's all about legacy, which matters for family members and generations about whether the guy was in or not. This is a voting body that will not put Mike Shanahan in when the rest of the league is saying, year after year, alls we want is a vision and version of Shannon and football. Does it look like he had an impact on the spot, does he have the hardware to prove he should be in there too? And yet the guy cannot get in Mike Holt cannot get in, and now Bill Belichick could not get in.

00:55:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's a killer, and they will, they will change the process. I actually sort of lost touch with it, and in my head they were changing the process after last year because they all agreed so uniformly, the people involved with the voting, that it was a mistake what happened that I thought the process had changed more.

00:56:19
Speaker 4: I don't think it changed at all.

00:56:20
Speaker 3: It will change ultimately, But and this is tricky because I respect a lot of the men and women, although obviously it's mostly men that have these votes. But I actually think the bigger issue is the composition of there's better people in each market to represent that market, and that it should not be a lifetime appointment, and that someone I guess the Hall of Fame is the people you know, needs to take an active role in that.

00:56:52
Speaker 4: Either it's got you either got.

00:56:53
Speaker 3: Term limits, or you just make the tough decisions because it's an important decision. And it's a really tough thing to be a Hall of Fame voter because most of these people didn't cover the league. They covered their team. And that's the other part where I think the composition could be less thirty two different people representing a city and then all these different at large and like more at large people because obviously there's self interest here, Like I'm talking about like people that cover the league, like myself, but I think the right national people that were covering the league broadly and whatever type of committee if it's X players, scouts, whatever, it doesn't all have to be media members either that are covering the league broadly, like of course those should be a bigger part of the pie than someone who is just covering the Titans.

00:57:42
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it shouldn't be majority media members in right opinion, it should be historians of the game. If they're in the media members. It should have more of a national focus, because it's the whole of fame. It's not the whole. It's not the ring of honor, visa and team, which is how these guys are kind of presented from whoever brings them to the table. Then they put the augument open, they go back and forth. There should be some kind of weighted percentage of the current members of the Hall getting to have a vote to say do they want someone in the brotherhood or not, and you can kind of wait it versus the committee versus those guys too, which may lift someone over the top or knock someone below. The threshold should be really high by the way to get into the thing, rather than it being like the basketball Hall of Fame where everyone who go a single triple double or whatever can get in there. So and you cannot if you have a fifty person member body. How can you have Tony Dungein Bill Polline, who worked together during the peak of their careers on that plus someone represented it from the Coults, who may or may not, I don't know, be influenced by the fact too, the most famous people who ever worked for the franchise on that body too. So that's three people who may have a similar line of thinking making up that percentage of a fifty member body. It's just ridiculous.

00:58:47
Speaker 3: It bothers me out because some of the people I'm even thinking about, like I like a lot, but they're like covering other sports. Now, it's just like it doesn't it doesn't make a lot of sense. For instance, I'm gonna just like give an example of just what I'm talking about. Like they have a few at large broadcasters and it's like, yeah, Dan Fouts, I think made sense at the time, and if you wanted him as part of like the Veterans Committee, but it's like Greg Olsen would be a good person to have in there. So someone like if you want to have you know, someone that's representing broadcasting or some like that played with him. But it like there's there's a lot of ways that you could go, and uh, yeah, Belichick would obviously be on my my ballot. I hate the people that were making like the any of the arguments against them too, because if.

00:59:36
Speaker 1: They if they put your defensive game plan from a Super Bowl against the hottest offense the league I have ever seen at that time into the hole, why is the guy who designed the game plan then went on to win a Lombardi's not in it.

00:59:46
Speaker 3: Right, You're talking about the one he did as the Giants defensive coordinator, which is absolutely part of his run.

00:59:51
Speaker 4: And everyone's like, well, they didn't.

00:59:53
Speaker 3: He didn't win a Super Bowl without Brady at you know, like the you know, the best quarterback of all time, Tom Brady was not the best quarterback of all time between two thousand and one in two thousand and four, I can go back and show you all the rankings. No One consider him a top five quarterback. I think by the end of four that was maybe unfair. In fact, he was probably a little underrated by the end of four, but for one two oh three, like he was not that guy. They won because of the combination, and they won because of the combination throughout.

01:00:20
Speaker 1: Except Bill Pollion did have a first round grade on Tom Brady but decided not to take him, even though he took three centers in one draft class when he had Jeff Saturday. He decided not to take a first round quote back in any of the first six rounds of the draft because he had paid them money on his roust.

01:00:33
Speaker 3: You're reminding me of a quote that I was looking for as you were talking. But I wanted to really lock in more with the goal that Ali's spinning that I didn't find it where. Someone said in reference to this whole Bill Pollion saying that he voted for him was a politician quote was like, only trust people with their votes if they say they didn't vote against you, Like, never trust the person that.

01:00:54
Speaker 4: Says they voted for you.

01:00:56
Speaker 3: Was essentially the politicians vote Forget where that was from, But I I love that, and I do think there will be change, And I do think there's gonna be second impact effects where if Robert Kraft does get inducted, it's gonna cast a little bit of a pall over it, and Kraft is gonna have to pretend to be leading that charge from the stage because Belichick's gonna be there. Adam Venattereri is a really strong candidate this year, and I think he has a good chance to get in, So I think Belichick would be there for vinitary would he be there if it was just Craft?

01:01:35
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe not.

01:01:37
Speaker 3: But either way, Kraft when he makes that speech if he's getting in, has to make the same speech that all the ex patriots are gonna be making, and they all believe it of how much Bill Belichick was robbed. So it's gonna have this like second level impact where it actually, I think in a way is gonna be good for Belichick, even though it's going to really bother him.

01:01:58
Speaker 1: I think their only way out to this is an idea that Nick Wright but forward, which is the best idea they opened up. If you remember for the one hundred year anniversary where they just kind of went, we got to clear the backlog. We have a significant backlog here they're going to have to do that again and just make it a nauseating All Patriots run where you get Gronkin, you get everyone in all at once, you delay Craft for another season, and you just have six Pats on the stage. Nick Wright came up with this. I think it's the only way to spin their way out of this where you can then get the backlash to be able just being so frustrated that it's an All Patriots weekend. You put them on the Hall of Fame game, you do the whole thing, You celebrate the great dynasty of our time. You screen the Apple TV documentary where Robert Craft is dumping on Bill Belichick for ten hours, You do the whole shebang, and then it will kind of spin back around that people forget he was excluded from the first ballot and just be frustrated it to All Patriots weekend.

01:02:42
Speaker 3: Fun idea would be so loathsome for the rest of America to watch that weekend that I don't think it would you do the Hall of Fame much justice or service, but it would be fun.

01:02:55
Speaker 4: I support anything creative like that.

01:02:58
Speaker 1: I do.

01:02:58
Speaker 3: Also, you alluded to it earlier, but just to spell it out and if it wasn't obvious enough. We're going long on this because I do care a lot about the Hall of Fame process. I would love to personally be part of it, and I would I would take it seriously, like if they ever let an NFL media person be part of it like they now do with the Associated Press votes, And I care. And I kind of love that people are even caring about this because it's like, yeah, I get into this. I think this is stuff worth getting into. But I loved the little news item that you dropped earlier. But I don't know if the listener will kind of know the reference that you're talking about. Both Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cower have alluded to the fact that, like, oh yeah, it was common practice, everyone was doing the Spygate stuff, and that Howard Mud, the former Colts offensive line coach, he's the one that taught me Jack and he's the one that taught Jimmy Johnson how to do this. Howard Mudd eventually ended up working for Tony Dungee and Bill Pollian, of course, and that they're just now out on Front Street.

01:04:01
Speaker 4: Let's saying it publicly.

01:04:02
Speaker 3: It was like, we could have used you twenty years ago Jimmy and Bill just saying like, oh, everyone was doing spygate back in the day, but just like a fun little news NuGet dropped fifteen years later.

01:04:12
Speaker 1: To Cow's credit, he has been consistent. Color is like open, like, here is how I cheat it throughout my run. I don't care. I got the trophy.

01:04:19
Speaker 4: Who guess?

01:04:20
Speaker 1: And I admired that from Bill Cala. He did not include that the you know, his organization was pumping in crowd noise throughout playoff games, which may or may not have happened with Bill Pollion.

01:04:29
Speaker 3: That they never really beat the allegation there. Let's wrap up by saying, if I'm if I'm going to be critical, what would my ballot be? And you mentioned how they did kind of jam in some extra Hall of famers around the top one hundred a few years ago, and then now they're like pulling back and now they're they're going to have to figure it all out. I struggle with the Seniors Committee stuff. I don't feel as well positioned to have a strong opinion about it. So when it comes to the senior members and the contributors, Belichick would obviously get my vote. I'm torn on Robert Craft. Ken Anderson has my vote in part because of my conversations with Chris Westling about Ken Anderson and going through it and some of the bill Will Walsh quotes, and you're kind of giving him a little bit of credit for the career that he didn't have it. But I am all about peak, and Ken Anderson to me for his Peak would get my vote as a contributor. So Belichick and ken Anderson would be my two yeses from the seniors and the contributors. And I think I think I would split up Craft. I'm not I'm not sure what do you think on Craft.

01:05:47
Speaker 1: I just don't think I'm pro Ona's going in yes unless unless it's like Lamal Hunt totally good with Spot wouldn't exist the way it does today without him. That's the one. After that, I think I'm pretty good. I don't care. They did a great media right to deal overseas, frankly, but once Jerry Jones is in, it kind of opens it that you kind of Jerry Jones in that with those credentials in twenty years of poverty and not have Robert Craft in this. So they've kind of backed themselves into a lane to please Jerry.

01:06:12
Speaker 4: That's where I struggle with it.

01:06:13
Speaker 3: And I'm not a voter that has a history, and none of this is official anyway, So I'm just gonna say that, like, I'm not sure about craft because my instinct would be similar to yours, where I'd have a hard time ever voting an owner in unless like the bar is just so high compared to like possibly getting a Mike Shanahan or an ex player in.

01:06:38
Speaker 4: And that's just where I'm at with owners.

01:06:41
Speaker 1: I don't think that anything that happens on the field should be necessarily put to ownership. Now, you need a good owner to be successful in the field, but that's the.

01:06:49
Speaker 4: Whole case for Robert Kraft. I understand the other cases.

01:06:52
Speaker 1: No, they talk about the off the field stuff and working on the committees and building out the league and blah blah blahs if it wouldn't have happened on its own. To me, it has the way you've done something like art Runel Lamalhunt, where it's really the definition of the league as we see now where it makes sense that you go and so it's so beyond just the league and the sport and like how well they sell media rights and how many trophies you pick up to really impact in the sport more generally in the direction of it. And I don't think the Robert Craft's case could be anything about the direction of the sport itself beyond TV rights deals are pretty good and he was involved in negotiations.

01:07:25
Speaker 3: Sure, yes, and he has a lot of friends in the media, which I think helps his case and when he gets talked about here. But yeah, like the best case you had for Jerry Jones outside of the sport was like, well, he let everyone make more money because they started doing side deals with PEPSI And it's like, what are we talking about here? You're going to put that on a plaqu All right, let's go to the modern candidate.

01:07:46
Speaker 4: So I went through my ballot.

01:07:49
Speaker 3: Here are the fifteen people I'm going to just read them all that were eligible for enshrinment. Willie Anderson, the tackle of the Bengals for many years, Drew of the Saints, Jarry Evans, the guard who played with the Saints, Larry Fitzgerald, wide receiver with the Cardinals. Of course, Frank Gore, who had his best days with the forty nine ers at running back.

01:08:11
Speaker 4: My favorite.

01:08:12
Speaker 3: Really was excited to see him on the finalist list in his very first year, which bodes really well for him getting in at some point if he doesn't this year. Tory Holt, who's been a finalist for a while, wide receiver with the Saint Louis Rams. Luke Keikley, mostly known for being a multiple time guest of NFL Daily, Terrell Suggs, the ed rusher for the Ravens, Adam Vinati Thieri the kicker with the Patriots and the Colts. Reggie Wayne wide receiver with the Colts. Kevin Williams, part of the Twin Towers, the defensive tackle. Love seeing him as part of the finalists, now that's some progress for him with the Vikings, Jason Witten getting on to the finalist list right away, it wasn't that wasn't a given as a tight end, so that really bodes well for him. Darren Woodson, who was his teammate at one point with the Cowboys, and Marshall Yonda, the guard for the Ravens. My ballot Ali and you're just gonna respond off of this because we're going to get out of here. Drew Brees seems like a no doubter or right, no brainer, no brainer, And that's the thing with Belichick too. Like as much as I love Breeze, I've made some like all time quarterbacks list, and you know, you could put him in the top ten, you could not put him in the top ten. I think he's probably gonna be in almost anyone's top fifteen. Yes, But but the fact that like Belichick is, you know, has a pretty strong case for like number one or two coach and like people would go insane like Drew Brees, is a total, no doubt, no brainer. He's obviously getting in just comparing him to Belichick. Of course Belichick should be that as well. Larry Fitzgerald makes the list for me too, and I think he's going to get in on his first year. Any any Larry Fitzgerald thoughts from over the years. I think he's one of the greatest to have to do it. I think he should be no brainer.

01:09:53
Speaker 1: That the problem they've backed themselves into is waiting, making these receivers wait and having to receive a backlog that maybe he will just fall out of it. But he should not absolutely be in.

01:10:02
Speaker 3: There is no argument, like no great argument against him. You know, part of the Hall of Fame. All twenty ten teams. Obviously, the numbers that he accumulated are insane that the only thing that could even have possibly created any debate at the time is like first team All Pro one time. And I do remember I covered most of these years, Larry Fitzgerald was in this weird spot where he usually was like the third best receiver in the NFL or the fourth and that's incredible, Like he he was so good and I think sometimes you could have made the case he was the best and maybe he should have had more than one first team All Pro, but he it is worth pointing out that that was the case for him for most of his career, where it was like that, to me, is absolutely a Hall of famer, a no doubter. Or if your third or fourth best for most of your career, much less like ten or twelve straight years, that's a hall of famer. But he always did have kind of moss and mega yeah popping up just like going over the top.

01:11:05
Speaker 1: You're running through maybe the full great receivers of all times, and it's like, oh, you're sick this Okay. It depends what your threshold bar is. I guess I think there was at times where he was a better more impactful receiver than guys who may be a bit more glamorous and possibly more flesh. Is a vertical threat. Those guys used to always get the AP awards.

01:11:22
Speaker 3: Although then you think about the run he had in that year with the Cardinals going to the super Bowl. How just one of the most dominant runs. And he was that dominant as a receiver during that portion of his career as anyone. Luke Kickley to me was really surprising, you know, mission last year, just you know when you see it, I'm I'm someone who's going to reward peak. And to me, he was the best at his position during his career, and I do think he'll get in this year.

01:11:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. Him, Patrick Willis best linebackers I ever studied, ever evaluated, should be no doubted to me.

01:11:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, And unlike unfortunately for will A, you know, not as much. And I know he left the game earlier, but not as much injuries early in his career. And Kicklely to me was even maybe another level above, but that's unfair maybe to Patrick Willis. All right, So that that's three to me that are pretty easy, I think. And then for my final three spots, just to give people a clue. I considered in the end Adam Vinattieri, Marshall Yonda the guard for the Ravens, and Tory Holt, who I am feeling that that feeling that maybe some of the.

01:12:29
Speaker 4: Voters are like that.

01:12:30
Speaker 3: I do want him to get in, and I think he's waited long enough, but I have to be a man of my word, Ali, and I think put the people in that deserve it most right away. And I would have spent more time with this process obviously, and who knows if that would have come to a different result if I actually had a vote. But I think Vinitiery and Marshall Yonda just get in for me over Tory Hole. Marshall Yonda who all pros at multiple different positions. It was crazy to look at the PFF All Pros, which are less consistent because they're Grady is less consistent. And he had five first team PFF All Pros and a second team and they were at three different positions. It was like he started out at right tackle, he did at left guard, he and right guard, but he also you know, at the end of his career, they made him switch guard positions and he was great at that too, And so I think there's an argument to be made like he was either the best or the second best at his position for an eight year period. Holt doesn't quite get there to me, And so if you are accepting that that Vinitaria gets in on his first chance, then those were my last two.

01:13:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. To me, it would be more between vinitarian hol At that point, I think Yonder is the guy who dominated all the whole famous who were gonna come through these next classes. And you speak to JJ Wall anyone like that, and say, who's the guy who would just like murge you for three or four reps in the game, it's Marshall Yonda. If all the greatest plays of all, I'm saying he's the guy gave them the most. Balda then had that level of consistency just to go in right way.

01:14:00
Speaker 7: Good.

01:14:01
Speaker 3: You made me feel better about that one because it's tough offensive line play. That's where if I had a VO I would dive more into it, not just the numbers, but talk to to more people.

01:14:10
Speaker 4: I admit that I didn't hear.

01:14:11
Speaker 3: It's more based off of what I saw, what I heard at the time, what people say, and I think for him at his position, if you compare him to let's say Willie Anderson at the time, Jarry Evans at the time, the other offensive lineman on this list. It's like, yeah, I think everyone would have agreed that Yonder for his position was higher, and ultimately I think that's true too if you compare him to Kevin Williams Witten who you know, these are guys that I did watch each and every year sugs. I love Gore and really hope that he gets in eventually, and even whole I think Yonda gets there.

01:14:48
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on Vinettieri?

01:14:50
Speaker 3: And if there's anyone from that longer list that I gave you, I know I didn't I didn't prep you too long that stand out to you as another one that would be really strong to consider.

01:14:59
Speaker 1: The vinetieria he wants to me is interesting because it does come down to this phrase people like to use, if can you tell the story of the game or not? And I don't know how much you weight that. I actually do care about the whole being a place you can take someone and take them through the trajectory and history of the sport, and it would be difficult to tell it without that. How do you kick off a dynasty it begins with this guy's foot. Well was he also just as good and did he have like the longevity, Well, you have more longevity than basically anyone to kick a football at that higher level, doing it for two different teams who competed NonStop, and they won championships on his foot. So to me, he does cross the threshold. I have a really really high bar for the kickers because I think they probably do have to be in kind of the annals of the game to get in there, whereas other guys, I'm happy to just say they were the most dominant player at their position for a long time.

01:15:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, I I'm torn on it too. Now, Vinettieri does the all time like he is the all time leader in field goals, mate and stuff. So he has the cumulative, he has the All pros because he did it over a number of years. There was actually a year I was looking this up. I remembered it too, when he was forty two, where he was like eight years into the Colts era and he didn't miss a kick that year, Like I think he missed one kick that year. So in terms of a big spot, I voted him because I was like, should a kicker make the Hall of Fame basically, And if my answer is accepting yes, was he the best kicker like throughout a lot of those years? No, Like I think Justin Tucker, for instance, was a more dominant kicker year to year than Benettieria was a different era.

01:16:29
Speaker 4: I think you do have to adjust for eras.

01:16:31
Speaker 3: But even for that era, he didn't have like the biggest leg in terms of hitting long field goals as consistently. But how I looked at it in the end was like, if I'm going to say a kicker ever can get in, he would get in.

01:16:46
Speaker 4: And I think for his position.

01:16:48
Speaker 3: If I'm accepting that a kicker can get in for his position comparing him to the other players at the other positions, I would be fine.

01:16:56
Speaker 4: Not like if he had to wait.

01:16:57
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to be some agree just you know, miscarriage of justice if Holt gets in over him or a bunch of different of the players listed. And because I think he'll get in eventually. But if I'm accepting that, I think, like he's that kicker, he's the kicker to get in.

01:17:11
Speaker 1: I agree with you, but it is tough because every year you could push him back by saying, well, Frank Gore, I'm running back this year, will do him. Torry Holt's his time, will put him, and well, you keep pushing out. Look at the clusses, the coming go but is absolutely stacked every season. Guys say, well an edge rush you it was maybe in the hole, a very good fringe hole of Fama. Let's put him above the kick if a kick is going to go in for all elements of it, the cumulative, the story of the game, the history of it.

01:17:34
Speaker 3: He's the guy and I and I look, all these guys are are such greats that have had such great careers, and I think this process is painful. We found out that Eli Manning is not gonna make it this year already. I don't like this trend that we're getting these reports that the guys don't make it. That's never happened before, because unfortunately they have to keep answering these questions and it becomes like an annual point of pain when it should be a point of pride that they're so close. So we know, I forgot to mention Eli before. I think it was because I knew he's already not gonna make it. But I'm not slagging any of these other names. To me, none of them maybe beyond yonder hit that point. To me that it was like, oh yeah, no doubt or for sure, like I expect them to get in and he's getting in, and so they're all in a similar bucket where you can make different cases. And for me, the Tory Hult case was I'm about peak. To me, he was the one in Saint Louis. He had a six year run where he went thirteen hundred to seventeen hundred yards where he was safely in the top five receivers in the NFL to me, in each one of those seasons, and just the subtle mover, incredible hands and to me kind kind of passes that test. It's why I'd probably vote Roger Craigan too. I forgot to mention that as my other player that I would vote in because for the first seven years of his career, if you look at yards from scrimmage, it's Eric Dickerson one, and then it's Roger Craig number two. Over like some of the greatest names you've ever seen, like you know, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, who weren't like playing for every single one of those years, but he's, you know, solidly ahead of those guys. So to me, if you have a like dominant seven year run, like that's enough for me. I'm I'm for those guys more than the compilers.

01:19:18
Speaker 1: So so you're happy with kind of the whole of very very good as opposed to just hole off the elite, the elite top five of the position. That's why Suggs is a tricky yeh for me. I adore Terrell Suggs. He was not one of the best three players on his own defense often, even though I think he's one of the greats. But that to me would be the whole of very good. I think Jason Witten is the whole of good. The whole very very good to me, is whole a nut to you? Is is enough?

01:19:44
Speaker 3: I don't know, because honestly, after the first it's why in the end you said it should be yes or no. Okay, And I hate to do this with my guy Gore because I think I would be yes on Gore. But to me it's it's maybe a little bit of a bias, but I really do believe he was one of the best running backs in each of those years where he wasn't honored by the All Pro like. It was just sort of the situations that they used him in some ways. The six guys that I mentioned I strongly considered kind of those are my yeses. I don't think I have a yes for the rest of them, and so Holt has long been a guy I thought was was made my cut for whatever reason, and I think my is no on the rest of them. So it's tough that Sugs and Woodson. I think, like our hauls are very good, not quite well.

01:20:34
Speaker 1: I'm glad we solved it. Full of them. They can reach out to you next year and just pick it up from.

01:20:38
Speaker 3: The I'm gonna I'm gonna try to work some behind the scenes magic. Can I Can I somehow get on that committee. Probably not, It's never gonna happen. Eric's is like, this was supposed to be an hour long show, but you know what, Eric, it's the weekend, and we wanted to talk coaches, and we wanted to talk Hall of Fame because we're not going to talk about it at length during Bowl week.

01:21:00
Speaker 4: I thought this was the time to do it.

01:21:01
Speaker 3: We will obviously congratulate the men that did make it and hit on that but for the most part, next week is going to be all about the game and all about the rest of the league because we're talking about in two different players from different teams, and start looking ahead to the offseason. Ali, that was awesome. Apologies for keeping you so long. We'll get you back next week. And yes, we will be doing shows all next week from San Francisco, but we do have a show on Monday that will be from the Chris Westling podcast studio, So that's the next time you will hear from us in the feed. Who knows, maybe the Raiders or the Cardinals will finally hire someone, but I don't think so because they're waiting for Clint Kubiak.

01:21:39
Speaker 4: We'll see you that