376 | Q&A Lightning Round #9: Six Questions from Four Listeners Answered

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are doing a lightning round.

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I've not done this in a really long time.

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But I think we're overdue for one.

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I know a lot of you have said that you really like those or enjoy those,

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so

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I'm hopeful that that will be true if you've

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experienced those before.

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If you've never had a lightning round,

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it's essentially me answering

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a whole bunch of questions all in one Q&A episode.

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Instead of one per episode,

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I combine 3 to 7,

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give or take.

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So,

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today we're doing 4.

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And I think that it'll allow me to tackle quite a few questions.

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And interestingly,

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some of the questions that I have are

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related.

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So,

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I think that it'll all kind of

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play together really well.

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Before

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we dive into that though,

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I'm

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sitting at my podcast desk and I have

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a lot of gifts that people have given me,

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like sent to me or given to me.

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And so,

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I've got a little kettlebell cup that someone gave me

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and I have a little wooden acorn and I have

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weebles,

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weeble wobbles,

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you know.

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And I have a little cardinal and a little coaster and whatever.

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So,

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it's kind of a collection of things that people have given me over the years.

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And one of the things that I just recently added is

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a little fire boot.

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And we were at Fanfest

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last weekend,

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which is the Tampa Bay Rays.

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Every year

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they,

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before the season begins,

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open up the,

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usually the stadium.

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This year it was outside,

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but they open up the stadium and

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they have players and coaches and games and food

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and activities and

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autograph signings and

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all kinds of really cool things just as a thank you to the fans.

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And we go every year.

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We were there.

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It was outside,

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as I mentioned,

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because

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our stadium is still being repaired from the hurricane.

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So

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we kind of walked from booth to booth to booth outside,

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kind of down the street,

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and one of the stops was

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the fire department,

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and they had a pull-up bar

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out

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to the side of their tent.

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And they had these little boots and they had a wheel that you could spin to get,

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you know,

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like a bracelet,

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a koozie,

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a pencil,

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whatever,

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but the little boots were like off to the side and I said,

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what's the deal with the boots?

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And he says,

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you have to be able to do,

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that's like a special thing.

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You can't just like win that.

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And I said,

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so what's the special thing?

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And he's like,

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you have to be able to do pull-ups.

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And I'm like,

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oh,

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I'm in.

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And so I'm like,

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OK,

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how many?

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And like,

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what,

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what are the ramifications?

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And then it turns out that it was like a

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freestanding pull-up bar and it was not anchored anywhere.

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So I couldn't do kipping pull-ups,

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which is what I do for CrossFit.

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So the guy that was standing there was like,

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Well,

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you have a choice.

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You can do strict pull-ups or you can do a dead hang.

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And I'm like,

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Oh,

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how long do I have to hang for?

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And he's like,

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at least 1 minute.

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I'm like,

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Oh gosh,

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let's go.

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So he gets his phone out and he sets the timer and I'm hanging on

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the pull-up bar,

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and I'm like,

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Can I get like 15 of these if I hang for like 5 minutes?

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And he was like,

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No.

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So anyway,

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I'm staring at the boot because I hung for a minute on the bar.

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The whole point of this is,

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when I sat down to start recording this podcast,

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I looked at that boot and I was just so grateful

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for

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getting to talk to

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the firefighters when I was there.

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And

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I feel like I should say this out loud publicly.

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I mean,

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we talk about it in our family all the time.

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My brother was an EMT for 7 years.

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My mom has worked in the medical industry for a very long time.

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So,

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We say this a lot amongst ourselves,

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but I feel like I should say it out loud publicly.

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If you

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are a firefighter,

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a police officer,

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military,

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past or present,

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first responder,

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EMT,

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fire medic,

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paramedic,

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if you are on the front lines of

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All of the stuff

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to keep our country the way that it is safe and secure and healthy.

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Huge,

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huge

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thank you

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from

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me and my family.

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I just want to say I'm so grateful,

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so appreciative.

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My brother has only given me

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a,

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a glimpse into what those seven years were like for him,

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and from what I,

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the little I know,

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I know

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that we have a lot that we owe you all.

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So,

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I just wanted to say publicly,

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thank you as I'm looking at my little fire boot here on my desk.

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I,

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I very much appreciate y'all and

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just wanted you to know.

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So,

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if you know someone that fits into that category,

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please pass that message along and if you are in that category,

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the message is to you.

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OK.

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So,

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let's dive into 4 questions.

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So,

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how this works is I'm going to read parts of the email

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and then answer each question 1 at a time and we're gonna go through 4 today.

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So,

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this might be a little bit of a longer episode,

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but

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That sometimes that's nice

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to not only spend 10 minutes together.

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OK.

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So,

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first question is from Kelly.

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And

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his,

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this is her question.

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The practice I work for has partnered with a foster care community and

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provides therapy services in addition to

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our traditional offices at their location.

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I see clients in the foster care community once a week.

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I have a theme that has emerged with two specific clients that are sisters,

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and all parties suspect that they have an extensive history of sexual abuse,

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along with significant physical abuse and neglect.

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The theme that seems to be emerging has to do with the lights.

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I see them every other week,

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but they both enter the playroom and immediately want the lights off.

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I've set the limit that if they choose to turn the lights

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off in the room,

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the flashlight on my cell phone has to be on.

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Each sister plays very differently once the lights are off,

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but the lights are a consistent theme for both of them.

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One paints nails and engages me in pretend play with a monster under the bed.

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The other's play is less consistent and ranges from pretend school

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to nails to singing and dancing.

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I keep wondering what the significance of the lights being off is.

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Any insight you might have is appreciated.

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All right,

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Kelly,

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thank you for this.

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It's interesting.

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I just had this conversation.

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I don't remember if it was a coaching call or a collective call,

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but we just talked about lights off pretty recently.

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So,

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I know that this is something that happens,

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and I've had plenty of sessions like this as well.

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So,

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If you have a window in your playroom,

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you typically do not need to set a limit on the

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lights being off because natural light comes in through the window.

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If you don't have a window in the playroom,

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I agree with you,

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there needs to be some level of light on.

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Now,

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it's not necessarily flashlight on your phone.

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It can be small table lamp.

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It can be a floor lamp on lowest setting.

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It can be the door gets cracked a little bit.

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There are all kinds of ways that we can

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accommodate a child's need to turn the lights off

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and still make sure that there's a little bit of visibility

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while honoring the fact that they purposefully want it dark.

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And as far as what could be happening,

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what's the significance of them wanting the lights off?

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It's never the same,

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so I can't give you kind of like one overarching reason,

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but we know that it's significant

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regardless of

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the

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reason that they're needing it.

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So,

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often,

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it's power and control.

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In other words,

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they're putting you in a vulnerable position

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because they are the ones turning the lights off and then you can't see as well.

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So sometimes it's kind of like a power grab.

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They are putting themselves in the position of power and you are in a vulnerable,

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less powerful position.

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That is often why.

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Another reason why is if the child is actually scared or fearful of something

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related to the dark or because of the dark.

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And if the girls have been sexually abused,

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there's a possibility that that would have happened at night.

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Obviously,

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it doesn't have to happen at night,

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but

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often when children are sexually abused,

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it's at night in their bedrooms.

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So it makes me wonder if maybe that is relevant in this particular case.

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Other reasons a child will turn the light off is their fear facing.

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And often it's they are purposefully putting themselves in

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a position where they are a little bit uncomfortable

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so that they can work through that.

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Another fourth option is it's means to an end.

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In other words,

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sometimes they need it dark so that they can show you that something glows.

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Sometimes they want it dark because

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they are trying to mimic going to bed at night.

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They want it dark because they

278
00:08:45,349 --> 00:08:48,489
are playing out something and it wouldn't be

279
00:08:48,669 --> 00:08:49,250
light

280
00:08:49,390 --> 00:08:51,030
when those things are taking place.

281
00:08:51,750 --> 00:08:54,169
And that's certainly not meant to be a comprehensive list,

282
00:08:54,239 --> 00:08:57,090
but those are the four most common reasons I've observed

283
00:08:57,349 --> 00:08:58,809
that children will turn lights off.

284
00:08:59,429 --> 00:09:01,609
I think that the way you're handling that is appropriate.

285
00:09:01,869 --> 00:09:03,080
There needs to be,

286
00:09:03,190 --> 00:09:04,109
and if you choose,

287
00:09:04,229 --> 00:09:06,340
then you choose limit associated with that.

288
00:09:06,590 --> 00:09:06,960
So,

289
00:09:07,109 --> 00:09:08,789
you really like to turn the lights off,

290
00:09:08,909 --> 00:09:13,489
but the room is not for being completely dark because we both have to be safe.

291
00:09:14,150 --> 00:09:14,260
So,

292
00:09:14,270 --> 00:09:16,229
if you choose to turn the lights off,

293
00:09:16,289 --> 00:09:17,489
you choose to keep

294
00:09:17,979 --> 00:09:18,919
X light on.

295
00:09:18,979 --> 00:09:19,520
In your case,

296
00:09:19,609 --> 00:09:20,179
it sounds like

297
00:09:20,549 --> 00:09:21,349
phone flashlight.

298
00:09:22,419 --> 00:09:26,960
And as long as the child is safe and you are safe,

299
00:09:27,289 --> 00:09:29,349
we know that there's a reason why

300
00:09:29,690 --> 00:09:31,340
the child wants the lights off.

301
00:09:31,489 --> 00:09:31,960
And so,

302
00:09:31,969 --> 00:09:33,950
we honor that as much as we can.

303
00:09:34,570 --> 00:09:34,840
Now,

304
00:09:34,969 --> 00:09:36,710
this is just a PSA,

305
00:09:37,369 --> 00:09:37,450
not,

306
00:09:37,549 --> 00:09:38,729
not to alarm any of you.

307
00:09:39,669 --> 00:09:41,489
But every once in a blue moon,

308
00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:44,250
you get a child that wants the light off

309
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:45,969
so that they can.

310
00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:48,390
Do something that they are.

311
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,989
Aware they should not be doing.

312
00:09:51,169 --> 00:09:53,080
And sometimes it means that they hurt you.

313
00:09:53,489 --> 00:09:56,289
Sometimes it means that they dump sand on your head.

314
00:09:56,770 --> 00:09:58,669
Sometimes it means that they

315
00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:00,190
surprise attack you.

316
00:10:01,049 --> 00:10:01,630
So

317
00:10:01,849 --> 00:10:05,429
be mindful that in a dark room,

318
00:10:05,809 --> 00:10:09,049
you have to be on alert to a degree,

319
00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:09,590
if

320
00:10:10,369 --> 00:10:11,530
not with every kid by any means.

321
00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:14,760
There are certain kids that I could be in a pitch black room with,

322
00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:17,270
and I would never worry that something like that was going to happen.

323
00:10:17,770 --> 00:10:20,390
But then I have certain kids that I could be in.

324
00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:22,250
A mostly still lit room,

325
00:10:22,390 --> 00:10:22,659
only,

326
00:10:22,750 --> 00:10:23,750
only slightly dim,

327
00:10:23,789 --> 00:10:25,809
and I would be concerned for what's about to happen.

328
00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:26,270
So,

329
00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:30,969
just be aware that sometimes they use the dark as the way to

330
00:10:31,229 --> 00:10:34,460
have the upper hand and it's with an agenda.

331
00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:35,250
So,

332
00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:36,549
watch this.

333
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:37,700
I can,

334
00:10:37,909 --> 00:10:38,070
you know,

335
00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:40,309
whack her with a sword when she doesn't expect it,

336
00:10:40,390 --> 00:10:43,409
or I can pour sand on her head when she doesn't know it's coming or

337
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:44,510
fill in the blank.

338
00:10:45,239 --> 00:10:48,340
So just be mindful that you kind of need to have a sense of

339
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,059
the child that you're working with and what they might

340
00:10:51,059 --> 00:10:54,020
have in mind and be on alert and be cautious.

341
00:10:54,909 --> 00:10:57,130
But we understand that regardless

342
00:10:57,270 --> 00:10:59,289
of why the child turns the lights off,

343
00:11:00,270 --> 00:11:01,299
it's significant,

344
00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:02,780
it's therapeutically valuable,

345
00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:03,570
and it's necessary.

346
00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:06,530
Because they know what they need to work on,

347
00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:08,280
they know how they need to work on it,

348
00:11:08,780 --> 00:11:11,080
and darkness is somehow a factor.

349
00:11:11,179 --> 00:11:15,419
And so we honor that as much as we can while preserving safety in the playroom.

350
00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:16,700
So Kelly,

351
00:11:16,780 --> 00:11:17,780
thank you so much for that question.

352
00:11:17,820 --> 00:11:18,530
I appreciate it.

353
00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:18,979
OK,

354
00:11:19,099 --> 00:11:20,260
so let's shift to Megan.

355
00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:20,450
Now,

356
00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:21,580
Megan has 3 questions.

357
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,799
Here's the overachiever of the day,

358
00:11:24,739 --> 00:11:24,859
or,

359
00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:26,059
or just really inquisitive,

360
00:11:26,099 --> 00:11:26,760
one or the other.

361
00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:27,539
OK,

362
00:11:27,619 --> 00:11:29,719
so let's look at each of these individually.

363
00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:31,299
I have a dollhouse in my playroom,

364
00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:34,840
and I was curious if you store your dollhouse furniture separately from the house,

365
00:11:35,010 --> 00:11:37,280
or do you keep the dollhouse set up with the furniture.

366
00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:40,719
I have a specific client who asks for the dollhouse to be set up

367
00:11:41,429 --> 00:11:42,380
before she comes into the room.

368
00:11:42,489 --> 00:11:44,159
Is that a request that you would comply with?

369
00:11:44,969 --> 00:11:45,770
So,

370
00:11:46,090 --> 00:11:47,750
as far as dollhouse furniture,

371
00:11:48,330 --> 00:11:49,400
you have two options.

372
00:11:49,539 --> 00:11:53,590
Many people have a dollhouse furniture bin or tub

373
00:11:54,090 --> 00:11:56,429
that sits right next to the house or in the house,

374
00:11:56,729 --> 00:11:58,799
and all of the furniture gets put into the tub,

375
00:11:58,809 --> 00:12:01,510
and then the child gets to arrange it however they choose.

376
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,929
Another option is if you don't have the tub,

377
00:12:04,330 --> 00:12:06,619
the furniture is in the home,

378
00:12:06,929 --> 00:12:08,469
but it is not staged.

379
00:12:09,219 --> 00:12:09,940
In other words,

380
00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:12,640
if a child comes in and sets up an entire,

381
00:12:13,419 --> 00:12:13,580
you know,

382
00:12:13,849 --> 00:12:14,479
entire home,

383
00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,239
every room has furniture in a very specific place,

384
00:12:17,299 --> 00:12:17,969
when you quote,

385
00:12:17,979 --> 00:12:19,119
reset the room,

386
00:12:19,739 --> 00:12:22,539
you also just kind of like move all the furniture around

387
00:12:22,539 --> 00:12:25,239
so that it doesn't look like it was purposefully placed there.

388
00:12:25,719 --> 00:12:29,599
Blank slate is the goal of the playroom every time the child comes in.

389
00:12:30,059 --> 00:12:31,400
So if you leave

390
00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:36,179
all the furniture in a very specific place where the other child quote staged it.

391
00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:39,039
That is not reset for the next child.

392
00:12:39,409 --> 00:12:39,760
So,

393
00:12:39,770 --> 00:12:41,390
it does not have to be

394
00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:43,549
taken out of the dollhouse by any means,

395
00:12:44,289 --> 00:12:47,429
but it should not be the way the child played with it

396
00:12:47,609 --> 00:12:48,809
in the previous session.

397
00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:51,349
And as far as

398
00:12:51,609 --> 00:12:54,890
client asking for the dollhouse to be set up before she comes in the room.

399
00:12:55,969 --> 00:12:57,729
There's obviously an agenda there,

400
00:12:57,849 --> 00:12:59,750
but you would just say,

401
00:13:00,169 --> 00:13:00,289
oh,

402
00:13:00,330 --> 00:13:00,450
well,

403
00:13:00,489 --> 00:13:01,729
you know that once you come in here,

404
00:13:01,809 --> 00:13:04,049
you can choose to set up the dollhouse any way that you choose.

405
00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:05,969
The furniture will always be there for you.

406
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,859
We're not going to set dollhouse furniture up because that is our

407
00:13:12,119 --> 00:13:12,559
leading.

408
00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:15,650
We have no idea how the child would want the furniture set up.

409
00:13:15,690 --> 00:13:16,950
And I would argue quite honestly,

410
00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:17,400
Megan,

411
00:13:17,450 --> 00:13:17,929
that

412
00:13:18,210 --> 00:13:20,429
if you set the dollhouse furniture up

413
00:13:20,809 --> 00:13:22,219
because you conceded,

414
00:13:22,650 --> 00:13:22,929
by the way,

415
00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:23,690
don't do that.

416
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,020
We should never concede to a child's demands.

417
00:13:27,599 --> 00:13:28,239
We're going to outwit,

418
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:28,679
outlast,

419
00:13:28,750 --> 00:13:29,340
outplay.

420
00:13:29,650 --> 00:13:30,250
And

421
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,099
if you did that

422
00:13:32,599 --> 00:13:36,140
because you got bamboozled or you felt guilty or whatever it is that we go through.

423
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,440
I almost guarantee you she would come in and say,

424
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:40,039
no,

425
00:13:40,119 --> 00:13:41,080
that doesn't go there,

426
00:13:41,119 --> 00:13:42,539
and then rearrange it anyway.

427
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,849
So it's not about wanting the furniture set up,

428
00:13:45,909 --> 00:13:48,109
it's about the issue that the child is facing.

429
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:50,940
So that's really important to keep in mind.

430
00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:51,390
OK,

431
00:13:51,669 --> 00:13:52,229
question two.

432
00:13:52,469 --> 00:13:55,270
I'm a school-based clinician and confidentiality around who

433
00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:57,669
attends therapy is not able to be achieved because

434
00:13:57,669 --> 00:14:00,070
clients often tell their friends or classmates and or

435
00:14:00,070 --> 00:14:01,450
can be seen in the hallway with me.

436
00:14:01,989 --> 00:14:05,690
I have two clients who do CCPT with me at the school and they're in the same class.

437
00:14:06,270 --> 00:14:07,789
They're aware the other attends therapy,

438
00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:08,169
obviously.

439
00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:10,400
I've noticed over the last 5 sessions,

440
00:14:10,409 --> 00:14:12,750
they've become increasingly competitive with each other,

441
00:14:13,090 --> 00:14:16,090
asking me about the other client and what they do in the session.

442
00:14:16,330 --> 00:14:19,530
I let the child know that everything in the session stays between us

443
00:14:19,690 --> 00:14:20,809
and set expectations.

444
00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:22,940
I've noticed that they're both in mastery,

445
00:14:23,010 --> 00:14:24,710
and they both enjoy creating art,

446
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,989
often making things for their friends or classmates or teacher.

447
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:31,030
When either of the clients takes artwork home,

448
00:14:31,250 --> 00:14:34,109
the other client sees it and typically wants to make the same thing,

449
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:36,229
asking me how did the other one make it.

450
00:14:36,409 --> 00:14:37,969
And then it becomes a competition.

451
00:14:38,549 --> 00:14:39,390
Whoever does it better,

452
00:14:39,469 --> 00:14:40,929
whoever can be more popular,

453
00:14:41,309 --> 00:14:44,150
I'm at a loss about how to tackle this as it is new for me.

454
00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:46,729
Should I just let it play out and reflect the emotions

455
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,500
or provide insights by enlarging?

456
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,849
Should I set boundaries about making things or bringing things home?

457
00:14:52,510 --> 00:14:52,710
All right,

458
00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:53,349
helpful question,

459
00:14:53,429 --> 00:14:53,710
Megan.

460
00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:56,630
And even if you are not school-based,

461
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:59,710
this will happen in your regular work

462
00:14:59,710 --> 00:15:03,369
setting as well because kids inevitably exchange

463
00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:05,130
in passage

464
00:15:05,669 --> 00:15:07,010
before and after a session.

465
00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:08,059
In other words,

466
00:15:08,429 --> 00:15:08,590
you know,

467
00:15:08,789 --> 00:15:09,789
client A is leaving,

468
00:15:09,909 --> 00:15:10,859
client B is coming,

469
00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:13,849
and they're always Mondays at 3 and Mondays at 4,

470
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:16,150
which means they always see each other in the lobby.

471
00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:17,929
They always are there at the same time.

472
00:15:18,619 --> 00:15:21,010
And sometimes they even kind of become friends.

473
00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:24,070
I always appreciate it when they see each other every week

474
00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:24,840
and they're like,

475
00:15:25,169 --> 00:15:25,369
Hi,

476
00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:26,070
what's your name?

477
00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:27,929
And then they just chit chat with each other and it's

478
00:15:27,929 --> 00:15:29,989
like they have their little bonding moment in the lobby.

479
00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:34,369
But you will often see that when the kid that's ready to come back with you

480
00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:37,989
sees that the kid that just finished with you is bringing something home,

481
00:15:38,929 --> 00:15:42,130
or they made something or they had art or something,

482
00:15:42,369 --> 00:15:44,609
and then they kind of observe and then they come in

483
00:15:44,609 --> 00:15:46,989
and sometimes they'll be drawn to do that same thing.

484
00:15:47,739 --> 00:15:49,599
So that is a pretty consistent thing

485
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,380
that also happens in the playroom.

486
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:52,679
A child will come in

487
00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:53,599
and

488
00:15:53,940 --> 00:15:55,000
notice that

489
00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:56,359
there were

490
00:15:57,299 --> 00:15:59,440
a small amount of Legos that had been assembled.

491
00:15:59,729 --> 00:15:59,809
Well,

492
00:15:59,890 --> 00:16:00,419
who made that?

493
00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:00,609
Well,

494
00:16:00,659 --> 00:16:01,559
what were they trying to build?

495
00:16:01,820 --> 00:16:03,630
And then they feel compelled to build something.

496
00:16:03,739 --> 00:16:04,119
So,

497
00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:07,760
that's a pretty consistent thing outside of the school setting as well.

498
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:08,369
So,

499
00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:08,729
Megan,

500
00:16:08,789 --> 00:16:10,289
I think in your scenario,

501
00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:14,080
you are handling it apparently from what you've said,

502
00:16:14,260 --> 00:16:16,669
the way that is very adherent to the model.

503
00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:19,289
You are going to reiterate the fact that,

504
00:16:19,369 --> 00:16:19,479
well,

505
00:16:19,530 --> 00:16:22,630
you know that what we say and do in here is just for you and me,

506
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,710
and I don't tell anyone else what you do and I won't tell you what anyone else does.

507
00:16:27,260 --> 00:16:27,570
OK,

508
00:16:27,690 --> 00:16:28,030
so,

509
00:16:28,210 --> 00:16:31,450
that's that very important component of reassuring

510
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:33,929
children about confidentiality and adhering to that.

511
00:16:34,789 --> 00:16:37,260
As far as the making things and taking it with them.

512
00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:39,150
It's means to an end.

513
00:16:40,059 --> 00:16:40,640
So,

514
00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:42,119
for us,

515
00:16:42,179 --> 00:16:45,219
we always say the child can choose to leave it or can

516
00:16:45,219 --> 00:16:47,640
choose to bring it home if it's something that they made.

517
00:16:48,099 --> 00:16:52,520
And so for them to take it with them either to the classroom or to their house,

518
00:16:53,099 --> 00:16:54,799
that would be a very similar process.

519
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:57,520
What I think would be very helpful

520
00:16:57,739 --> 00:16:58,799
is to

521
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,640
acknowledge what you see happening to each child.

522
00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:02,090
So,

523
00:17:02,099 --> 00:17:02,570
in other words,

524
00:17:02,619 --> 00:17:02,859
you know,

525
00:17:03,059 --> 00:17:04,160
first kid comes in,

526
00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:05,969
I'm going to make something.

527
00:17:06,229 --> 00:17:07,718
And then 2nd kid comes in and says,

528
00:17:07,788 --> 00:17:07,917
Oh,

529
00:17:07,958 --> 00:17:09,348
I saw that so and so made this,

530
00:17:09,358 --> 00:17:10,618
and I'm going to do the same thing.

531
00:17:11,118 --> 00:17:11,598
Oh,

532
00:17:11,718 --> 00:17:13,318
you want to make exactly the same thing,

533
00:17:13,398 --> 00:17:14,958
but you know that every time you're here,

534
00:17:15,038 --> 00:17:17,308
this is your time and you get to decide what we do.

535
00:17:17,718 --> 00:17:17,828
So,

536
00:17:17,838 --> 00:17:19,558
you're reinforcing expectations,

537
00:17:19,628 --> 00:17:22,348
but you're also acknowledging what their need is.

538
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:24,138
There's a reason that they're

539
00:17:24,479 --> 00:17:25,718
feeling compelled to compete.

540
00:17:25,999 --> 00:17:28,019
There's a reason that they're trying to

541
00:17:28,198 --> 00:17:29,418
see what the other has done.

542
00:17:29,879 --> 00:17:30,948
I would argue for both of them,

543
00:17:30,979 --> 00:17:32,218
it sounds like a self-esteem

544
00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:33,399
driven issue.

545
00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:36,469
And so you're just going to do a lot of encouragement,

546
00:17:36,550 --> 00:17:37,890
a lot of esteem building.

547
00:17:38,469 --> 00:17:38,630
Oh,

548
00:17:38,709 --> 00:17:39,040
and then,

549
00:17:39,069 --> 00:17:39,349
of course,

550
00:17:39,469 --> 00:17:39,630
yes,

551
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:41,010
you could do some enlargements.

552
00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:41,510
Oh,

553
00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:45,229
it's important to you that you make something because someone else made something,

554
00:17:45,339 --> 00:17:48,609
but you know that this is your time and you get to decide what you do,

555
00:17:48,709 --> 00:17:51,410
and you can choose to make something or you can choose to do something else.

556
00:17:51,989 --> 00:17:54,180
There's a constant coming back to,

557
00:17:54,479 --> 00:17:57,530
you are ultimately responsible for what happens in here,

558
00:17:57,709 --> 00:17:59,310
and you can choose to make something.

559
00:17:59,810 --> 00:18:02,650
To compete or rival your friend,

560
00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:03,390
but

561
00:18:03,609 --> 00:18:05,829
there's no expectation of that behavior.

562
00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,310
So you're kind of constantly doing that dance

563
00:18:08,449 --> 00:18:10,849
of honoring what the child is doing,

564
00:18:11,089 --> 00:18:15,310
but also reminding them of expectations that it's not necessary.

565
00:18:15,770 --> 00:18:18,380
But we have to recognize that they need this,

566
00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:23,709
and I suspect it's low self-esteem and they're trying to work on their identity.

567
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:25,410
I also question

568
00:18:25,609 --> 00:18:25,949
if

569
00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:30,550
it's not well received by friends and teachers and whomever,

570
00:18:31,209 --> 00:18:32,670
if they come back with art

571
00:18:33,010 --> 00:18:34,760
versus they come back with nothing

572
00:18:35,329 --> 00:18:38,030
because the rest of the class doesn't get to go and play with you.

573
00:18:38,410 --> 00:18:40,709
But if they bring back something that they made,

574
00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:42,020
it's easy for them to say,

575
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:42,369
oh yeah,

576
00:18:42,410 --> 00:18:43,229
I made this.

577
00:18:43,449 --> 00:18:43,609
Well,

578
00:18:43,729 --> 00:18:46,550
that kind of buffers the fact that it was play therapy.

579
00:18:47,619 --> 00:18:49,709
And then the other students are like,

580
00:18:49,829 --> 00:18:49,989
man,

581
00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:51,310
I wish I could go paint.

582
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:52,550
I wish I could go color.

583
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:54,290
I wish I could go make something.

584
00:18:54,910 --> 00:18:57,489
And it doesn't seem as significant.

585
00:18:57,790 --> 00:19:00,310
So I'm also curious if maybe there's a little bit of

586
00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:03,089
a buffer that they're trying to achieve with that subconsciously.

587
00:19:04,030 --> 00:19:04,599
But again,

588
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:05,900
it's means to an end.

589
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,780
There's purpose behind those choices.

590
00:19:09,109 --> 00:19:10,800
And so we're just going to let it play out.

591
00:19:10,859 --> 00:19:12,300
It will sort itself out,

592
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,420
and we just remain adherent.

593
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:15,150
All right,

594
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,420
final question for Megan.

595
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,229
I recently have been working on increasing my aggressive toys,

596
00:19:19,239 --> 00:19:21,560
and I've become more and more comfortable with that type of play.

597
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:22,319
High five,

598
00:19:22,349 --> 00:19:22,670
Megan,

599
00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:23,640
as we all should.

600
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,119
I was curious what kinds of shooters you use.

601
00:19:26,199 --> 00:19:28,750
I noticed that often CCPT says toy gun,

602
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,750
but not realistic,

603
00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:31,810
and I was unsure what is too realistic.

604
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,439
I've used shooters with discs and I've used Nerf guns.

605
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,599
Are those both appropriate?

606
00:19:35,719 --> 00:19:35,939
Yes,

607
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:36,680
absolutely.

608
00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:38,420
And you can even have

609
00:19:38,719 --> 00:19:40,859
guns that don't specifically shoot something.

610
00:19:41,619 --> 00:19:45,359
I have toy guns that just make a clicking sound when they're fired.

611
00:19:45,739 --> 00:19:48,750
I at one point had almost like Western

612
00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:50,199
6 shooters

613
00:19:50,339 --> 00:19:52,890
that you could actually like cock it and then it would click,

614
00:19:52,939 --> 00:19:54,839
but it was more like metal looking.

615
00:19:55,579 --> 00:19:56,000
But

616
00:19:56,420 --> 00:20:00,359
you just want to make sure that they have like the neon tips.

617
00:20:00,869 --> 00:20:04,689
And that it's very clear that it's not a real weapon.

618
00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:05,579
And so

619
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,540
the the goal is that it does not look

620
00:20:09,010 --> 00:20:10,079
extremely realistic,

621
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:11,239
extremely lifelike.

622
00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:14,020
It needs to have indications on it that it is a toy.

623
00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:16,239
And Nerf guns,

624
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:17,040
disk shooters,

625
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:18,030
any of those things,

626
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,020
those are always brightly colored,

627
00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:20,719
plastic,

628
00:20:20,829 --> 00:20:21,550
clunky,

629
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,060
and so those are absolutely appropriate.

630
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,180
If you get ones that don't shoot something,

631
00:20:26,479 --> 00:20:29,079
you just want to be mindful that it does need to

632
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,709
look like a toy and there needs to be distinct features.

633
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:32,660
It's usually

634
00:20:33,109 --> 00:20:35,979
orange or green or yellow on the handle or on the tip

635
00:20:36,260 --> 00:20:38,020
so that it's clear that it's

636
00:20:38,239 --> 00:20:38,640
a toy.

637
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:39,810
All right,

638
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:40,170
thank you,

639
00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:40,689
Megan.

640
00:20:40,979 --> 00:20:42,839
Let's move on to Barbara's question.

641
00:20:43,219 --> 00:20:47,459
I'm hoping you could provide some suggestions on how best to advocate for CCPT

642
00:20:47,699 --> 00:20:50,459
for a child when a non-CCPT professional

643
00:20:50,619 --> 00:20:52,859
advises parents against CCPT.

644
00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:57,010
This 4 year old is going through a lot of changes from a high conflict divorce.

645
00:20:57,410 --> 00:20:59,250
I feel very disheartened by what seems to be

646
00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:02,550
a medical provider stepping outside of their scope of expertise

647
00:21:02,979 --> 00:21:04,849
and feel compelled to educate this doctor

648
00:21:04,849 --> 00:21:07,209
so they have an accurate understanding of CCPT

649
00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:10,229
and refrain from making such ill-advised recommendations.

650
00:21:11,020 --> 00:21:12,770
I've listened to your podcast and I'm still

651
00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:14,920
wondering if there's a particular approach you would suggest

652
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:17,530
in educating non-CCPT professionals.

653
00:21:17,819 --> 00:21:18,959
To provide a clearer picture,

654
00:21:19,459 --> 00:21:22,459
the doctor's rationale behind their opposition to CCPT

655
00:21:22,739 --> 00:21:23,890
is that the doctor believes,

656
00:21:23,979 --> 00:21:24,459
quote,

657
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,239
Parents need to carry the burden of the divorce

658
00:21:27,579 --> 00:21:29,819
and participate in co-parenting classes

659
00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:31,619
and being better co-parents

660
00:21:31,939 --> 00:21:33,709
because they believe that placing the child in

661
00:21:33,709 --> 00:21:36,760
CCPT would result in burdening the child.

662
00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:38,099
Further,

663
00:21:38,150 --> 00:21:39,780
the doctor stated that if the child is

664
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:42,339
not seemingly externalizing the effects of the divorce,

665
00:21:42,439 --> 00:21:46,339
it means the child isn't having any difficulties navigating the divorce process.

666
00:21:47,089 --> 00:21:47,959
Holy Moses.

667
00:21:48,859 --> 00:21:52,349
While I'm pleased with their endorsement of co-parenting practices,

668
00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:53,239
agreed,

669
00:21:53,699 --> 00:21:57,300
I have had a very strong reaction to this doctor's view of CCPT.

670
00:21:57,459 --> 00:21:58,359
I can imagine.

671
00:21:58,819 --> 00:22:02,180
It is quite troubling to me that a doctor would advise something without knowledge.

672
00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:05,099
This particular doctor is clearly not well educated about

673
00:22:05,099 --> 00:22:06,800
what would be best for the child and family.

674
00:22:07,439 --> 00:22:11,400
And is missing the fact that a child's distress is not always overtly expressed.

675
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:11,719
Yes,

676
00:22:11,819 --> 00:22:12,500
and amen.

677
00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:13,479
OK.

678
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:13,800
So,

679
00:22:13,959 --> 00:22:14,280
Barbara,

680
00:22:14,349 --> 00:22:14,880
thank you for this.

681
00:22:14,959 --> 00:22:16,420
I think this is really helpful.

682
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:17,819
We've been talking

683
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,819
in the collective in February

684
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,579
about loving people

685
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:22,239
and,

686
00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:23,439
and in different capacities,

687
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:25,219
different ways and different roles.

688
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,510
And this last week,

689
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,979
we talked about how do we

690
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:30,640
love our community.

691
00:22:30,925 --> 00:22:31,505
Well,

692
00:22:31,724 --> 00:22:33,204
meaning stakeholders.

693
00:22:33,604 --> 00:22:34,265
So,

694
00:22:34,885 --> 00:22:36,265
all of the adults

695
00:22:36,604 --> 00:22:37,665
that have

696
00:22:37,964 --> 00:22:40,584
some influence or sway in the child's world,

697
00:22:40,925 --> 00:22:41,484
so teachers,

698
00:22:41,564 --> 00:22:42,594
pediatricians,

699
00:22:42,925 --> 00:22:43,675
dentists,

700
00:22:43,885 --> 00:22:44,994
school counselors,

701
00:22:45,165 --> 00:22:46,005
guardians,

702
00:22:46,165 --> 00:22:46,645
judges,

703
00:22:46,724 --> 00:22:47,244
attorneys,

704
00:22:47,405 --> 00:22:48,425
so on and so forth,

705
00:22:49,045 --> 00:22:50,064
how do we

706
00:22:50,244 --> 00:22:54,444
love those people well and really truly demonstrate what CCPT means?

707
00:22:54,925 --> 00:22:55,035
So,

708
00:22:55,045 --> 00:22:56,064
we just talked about

709
00:22:56,194 --> 00:22:57,444
a very similar scenario to this.

710
00:22:57,525 --> 00:22:59,484
I think this is helpful to discuss on here as well.

711
00:23:00,010 --> 00:23:03,709
I'm going to kind of hit some highlights as we go through this because I think

712
00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:06,290
there are several components that I'd like to tackle here.

713
00:23:06,449 --> 00:23:06,790
So,

714
00:23:07,989 --> 00:23:10,530
The pediatrician advising against CCPT.

715
00:23:11,109 --> 00:23:12,609
It makes me question because I,

716
00:23:12,619 --> 00:23:15,300
it doesn't sound like you've had a conversation with the pediatrician.

717
00:23:15,349 --> 00:23:16,229
It sounds like the,

718
00:23:16,329 --> 00:23:17,949
the parent has relayed information.

719
00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:20,170
This is my,

720
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:21,030
I love you all,

721
00:23:21,109 --> 00:23:22,969
be careful comment here.

722
00:23:23,589 --> 00:23:25,089
It's very difficult

723
00:23:25,229 --> 00:23:27,369
to have an accurate representation

724
00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:29,709
of a conversation if you weren't there.

725
00:23:30,969 --> 00:23:32,130
Because when a parent

726
00:23:32,530 --> 00:23:33,079
hears it,

727
00:23:33,209 --> 00:23:35,270
they interpret it through their lens.

728
00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:36,969
Then they tell you,

729
00:23:37,089 --> 00:23:38,949
you interpret it through your lens.

730
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,160
But that's the phone game at that point.

731
00:23:43,140 --> 00:23:44,869
And so my caution,

732
00:23:45,030 --> 00:23:45,489
Barbara,

733
00:23:45,550 --> 00:23:46,290
is,

734
00:23:47,089 --> 00:23:47,099
I,

735
00:23:47,229 --> 00:23:49,869
I'm sure that the pediatrician indicated they

736
00:23:49,869 --> 00:23:52,050
didn't think CCPT was an appropriate fit,

737
00:23:52,550 --> 00:23:55,199
but the specificity of what was said,

738
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:56,930
reported from the parent,

739
00:23:57,589 --> 00:23:59,709
you haven't heard that directly from the doctor.

740
00:24:00,479 --> 00:24:01,109
So

741
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,560
always lead with,

742
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,040
you know what,

743
00:24:03,099 --> 00:24:06,300
I need to have a conversation and hear

744
00:24:06,599 --> 00:24:08,459
what this doctor actually thinks,

745
00:24:08,790 --> 00:24:10,780
hear what this attorney actually is saying,

746
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,020
hear what this teacher actually wants to share,

747
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,439
because as we get further removed from the conversation,

748
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,819
the message changes

749
00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:21,140
and it gets interpreted not in

750
00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:22,699
any kind of negative way,

751
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,459
but everyone is going to tell their version of a story

752
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:27,300
because they,

753
00:24:27,439 --> 00:24:29,540
they heard that story through their own lens.

754
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,819
So I would go directly to the pediatrician

755
00:24:33,589 --> 00:24:37,060
before I would take what the parent said as fact because

756
00:24:37,239 --> 00:24:39,439
we don't really know if any of that or

757
00:24:39,439 --> 00:24:42,060
how much of it was misconstrued or misrepresented.

758
00:24:42,439 --> 00:24:43,510
So that would be my first thought.

759
00:24:43,719 --> 00:24:45,319
The second thought is,

760
00:24:46,199 --> 00:24:48,780
I 100% agree that it sounds as though

761
00:24:49,239 --> 00:24:51,280
the doctor might be stepping outside of scope

762
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,160
of practice because if they're a medical provider,

763
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,540
their wheelhouse is

764
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:57,380
medical.

765
00:24:57,839 --> 00:25:00,180
And this is kind of taking it a little bit further.

766
00:25:00,239 --> 00:25:00,979
However,

767
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:04,969
There's nothing inherently problematic

768
00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:06,130
about any

769
00:25:06,469 --> 00:25:07,089
provider

770
00:25:07,189 --> 00:25:08,089
in any field

771
00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:09,430
saying,

772
00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:10,069
well,

773
00:25:10,150 --> 00:25:12,079
here are thoughts that I have about that,

774
00:25:12,430 --> 00:25:13,609
or here are

775
00:25:13,949 --> 00:25:16,890
experiences that I've had based on working with so many families,

776
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:19,290
or here's my opinion,

777
00:25:19,829 --> 00:25:20,060
and then,

778
00:25:20,069 --> 00:25:20,260
you know,

779
00:25:20,339 --> 00:25:21,829
you can decide for yourself.

780
00:25:22,270 --> 00:25:22,859
So,

781
00:25:23,069 --> 00:25:26,709
I think that we are often asked for thoughts on scenarios

782
00:25:26,709 --> 00:25:30,050
that are not particularly within solely the mental health arena.

783
00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:31,160
And I mean,

784
00:25:31,239 --> 00:25:33,050
you know how many times I've been asked what,

785
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:34,219
what school

786
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,040
a family should look into for their child?

787
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:37,599
Well,

788
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:39,520
what recommendations do you have for a school?

789
00:25:39,569 --> 00:25:41,180
What school do you think would be good for my kid?

790
00:25:42,469 --> 00:25:44,310
I'm not in the academic world,

791
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:47,849
but I absolutely have schools that other parents have told me,

792
00:25:48,069 --> 00:25:48,430
oh man,

793
00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:49,729
we love this school.

794
00:25:50,189 --> 00:25:52,209
And so is that stepping outside my scope?

795
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:54,349
If it's done appropriately and carefully,

796
00:25:54,469 --> 00:25:54,890
no.

797
00:25:55,939 --> 00:25:58,500
So we're not really sure exactly what's going on

798
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,579
as far as how far the pediatrician is,

799
00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:01,760
is reaching here.

800
00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:03,579
And

801
00:26:04,609 --> 00:26:05,329
Potentially,

802
00:26:05,410 --> 00:26:05,569
yes,

803
00:26:05,689 --> 00:26:08,109
the pediatrician knows nothing about CCPT,

804
00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:10,449
but here's my caution.

805
00:26:11,719 --> 00:26:12,750
You said,

806
00:26:12,959 --> 00:26:15,719
I feel compelled to educate this doctor so they have an

807
00:26:15,719 --> 00:26:18,479
accurate understanding of CCPT and refrain

808
00:26:18,479 --> 00:26:20,780
from making such ill-advised recommendations.

809
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,420
That might be

810
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,780
helpful and warranted.

811
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,260
But almost always.

812
00:26:26,969 --> 00:26:30,760
That's going to be met with resistance and defensiveness and irritation.

813
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,859
We can't

814
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,660
storm the world

815
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,160
and get people to understand CCPT.

816
00:26:39,089 --> 00:26:41,270
We can't insist that people

817
00:26:41,969 --> 00:26:43,089
get this model.

818
00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:46,430
We can't educate people so that they change their mind.

819
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,719
We have a calm,

820
00:26:48,790 --> 00:26:49,979
quiet confidence.

821
00:26:51,170 --> 00:26:53,329
And we do our own advocacy advocacy.

822
00:26:54,449 --> 00:26:58,189
And we do our own gentle demonstration of CCPT.

823
00:26:59,219 --> 00:27:01,530
And we introduce ideas and concepts,

824
00:27:01,979 --> 00:27:03,770
but it can't be shoved down people's throats,

825
00:27:03,939 --> 00:27:06,160
especially when they have no understanding

826
00:27:06,339 --> 00:27:07,660
of the things that we understand.

827
00:27:09,079 --> 00:27:10,420
So there's a very

828
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,699
thin and fragile tightrope that we walk.

829
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,750
And any advocacy,

830
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:17,760
any education,

831
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,640
any information that we're providing.

832
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:22,260
It has to be met with grace

833
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,339
and patience

834
00:27:23,479 --> 00:27:24,380
and kindness

835
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:25,530
and gentleness,

836
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,339
basically the fruits of the spirit.

837
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:28,420
So,

838
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,540
you have to be really careful

839
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,099
when you approach these kinds of things because

840
00:27:33,439 --> 00:27:33,979
you're never,

841
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:34,280
I mean,

842
00:27:34,439 --> 00:27:35,290
one of my favorite quotes,

843
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,550
y'all know how much I love quotes,

844
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,680
and I have so many quotes,

845
00:27:37,719 --> 00:27:38,000
literally,

846
00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:38,760
it's crazy,

847
00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:39,140
but

848
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:40,189
one of my favorites,

849
00:27:40,239 --> 00:27:41,790
and I say it quite a bit,

850
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,540
is

851
00:27:42,719 --> 00:27:45,199
you attract more bees with honey than with vinegar.

852
00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:46,839
So look,

853
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,079
we can get all salty and bitter about,

854
00:27:49,239 --> 00:27:49,560
you know,

855
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,459
what is this doctor doing and why are they saying that,

856
00:27:52,469 --> 00:27:53,579
and that is crazy,

857
00:27:53,959 --> 00:27:55,979
and we're going to come in with a whole bunch of vinegar

858
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:57,859
and it's not going to do what we want.

859
00:27:58,410 --> 00:28:00,060
So we have to

860
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,140
be sweeter

861
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:02,920
and we have to have calm,

862
00:28:02,949 --> 00:28:04,099
quiet confidence

863
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,140
that we know that this

864
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:07,959
little 4-year-old needs CCPT.

865
00:28:08,109 --> 00:28:08,630
We know it.

866
00:28:08,819 --> 00:28:09,800
There's no question,

867
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:10,739
not even

868
00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:12,099
a fraction of a percent

869
00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:12,979
of doubt

870
00:28:13,239 --> 00:28:14,920
that this 4-year-old needs CCPT.

871
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,439
But the pediatrician doesn't know what we know.

872
00:28:19,489 --> 00:28:20,319
And then

873
00:28:20,859 --> 00:28:22,829
the rationale that co-parenting is helpful.

874
00:28:22,939 --> 00:28:24,000
I agree with that.

875
00:28:24,219 --> 00:28:25,920
I'm actually very on board.

876
00:28:25,979 --> 00:28:27,739
I think in a high conflict divorce,

877
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:32,410
one of the most helpful things that anyone could recommend is co-parenting,

878
00:28:32,729 --> 00:28:33,609
100%.

879
00:28:33,939 --> 00:28:35,800
That is not mutually exclusive

880
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:36,900
from CCPT.

881
00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:38,489
So yes,

882
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:39,229
absolutely.

883
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:40,709
When a parent comes to you and says the

884
00:28:40,709 --> 00:28:43,530
pediatrician thinks that we should do co-parenting classes instead,

885
00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:44,329
I would say,

886
00:28:44,550 --> 00:28:44,839
gosh,

887
00:28:44,949 --> 00:28:46,750
I actually am very much in agreement with that,

888
00:28:46,829 --> 00:28:48,390
but we can still do CCPT.

889
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:52,640
So y'all work on your junk and get your co-parenting crap together

890
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:55,180
and all work on CCPT with the 4 year old

891
00:28:55,180 --> 00:28:57,219
and then everyone's gonna come out better for it.

892
00:28:58,119 --> 00:29:00,300
So those coexist very well

893
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,000
in the mental health space.

894
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,479
And it's going to burden the child.

895
00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:05,839
Well,

896
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,199
that's where I think there's a huge misunderstanding of CCPT.

897
00:29:10,619 --> 00:29:13,900
There is not an ounce of burden placed on a child in CCPT.

898
00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:15,369
They're in charge

899
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:19,209
You only carry around a burden when something is imposed on you.

900
00:29:20,719 --> 00:29:22,979
CCPT doesn't impose anything on anybody.

901
00:29:23,790 --> 00:29:24,239
So

902
00:29:24,430 --> 00:29:25,550
what she needs to work on,

903
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,050
she'll work on.

904
00:29:26,150 --> 00:29:27,260
When she needs to work on it,

905
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:28,099
she'll work on it.

906
00:29:28,349 --> 00:29:29,540
How she's going to work on it,

907
00:29:29,670 --> 00:29:30,349
she'll work on it.

908
00:29:31,199 --> 00:29:32,180
There's no burden.

909
00:29:32,719 --> 00:29:33,540
There's healing,

910
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:34,349
and there's hope,

911
00:29:34,479 --> 00:29:35,380
and there's growth,

912
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,020
and there's wellness

913
00:29:37,410 --> 00:29:38,439
on the other side of that.

914
00:29:39,140 --> 00:29:39,530
So,

915
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:41,160
that is where I think the greatest

916
00:29:42,020 --> 00:29:45,099
deviation from understanding of the model is in that sentence.

917
00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:47,109
And then I absolutely agree with you

918
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:47,780
that

919
00:29:48,099 --> 00:29:50,089
because she's not externalizing the effects,

920
00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:53,119
that means that she's not having any difficulties navigating the divorce.

921
00:29:53,859 --> 00:29:54,760
That is

922
00:29:55,180 --> 00:29:56,979
one of the craziest things that I think an adult

923
00:29:56,979 --> 00:29:59,119
has ever said about a child going through divorce.

924
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,739
And so that's something that you don't address with the pediatrician,

925
00:30:03,819 --> 00:30:05,219
you address with the parent.

926
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:07,020
You say

927
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,060
with all due respect,

928
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,959
some of the most broken,

929
00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:11,520
hurting,

930
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,920
devastated kids are the internalizer,

931
00:30:14,239 --> 00:30:16,130
and you would never know it looking at them,

932
00:30:16,439 --> 00:30:18,020
but their pain is so deep

933
00:30:18,170 --> 00:30:19,739
and their hurt is so great

934
00:30:19,959 --> 00:30:21,199
they just stuff it and hide it.

935
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:22,300
That does not mean

936
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,479
that she is not struggling with this because you don't see it.

937
00:30:26,369 --> 00:30:28,569
But that's something that you say to parents,

938
00:30:28,689 --> 00:30:30,050
not necessarily the pediatrician.

939
00:30:30,130 --> 00:30:30,319
I mean,

940
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,560
maybe if you get an audience with the pediatrician at some point,

941
00:30:32,609 --> 00:30:32,890
you can,

942
00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:33,510
sure.

943
00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:34,550
But

944
00:30:35,089 --> 00:30:38,510
the goal is that that's something that the parent needs to understand.

945
00:30:39,010 --> 00:30:40,069
So here are my thoughts

946
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:41,790
to kind of wrap this up.

947
00:30:42,130 --> 00:30:43,369
I think that

948
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:48,229
You absolutely can advocate for CCPT in conjunction with co-parenting.

949
00:30:48,969 --> 00:30:52,319
I think you should have a conversation with the pediatrician

950
00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:54,579
for no other reason than to hear

951
00:30:54,579 --> 00:30:57,800
what the pediatrictrician actually believes and thinks.

952
00:30:58,949 --> 00:30:59,380
And,

953
00:30:59,469 --> 00:30:59,670
you know,

954
00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:01,770
we're both working with this family.

955
00:31:01,989 --> 00:31:05,489
I would love to have a brief chat with you to do some collaborative care.

956
00:31:06,189 --> 00:31:07,459
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

957
00:31:07,790 --> 00:31:10,630
Mom mentioned to me that you shared some thoughts about co-parenting.

958
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,109
I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

959
00:31:12,390 --> 00:31:13,930
Just a very neutral,

960
00:31:14,189 --> 00:31:15,709
open-ended conversation.

961
00:31:15,790 --> 00:31:17,050
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

962
00:31:17,189 --> 00:31:18,550
And then as you're talking,

963
00:31:18,869 --> 00:31:20,050
you might throw some

964
00:31:20,869 --> 00:31:21,550
counters in.

965
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:22,719
Well,

966
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:22,910
I,

967
00:31:22,959 --> 00:31:25,040
I very much agree that co-parenting would be helpful,

968
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,939
but I think CCPT is necessary for this little girl.

969
00:31:28,890 --> 00:31:30,520
And so you plant seeds

970
00:31:30,660 --> 00:31:31,979
as you have that conversation.

971
00:31:32,060 --> 00:31:33,209
I think that would be really helpful.

972
00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:34,400
Another option

973
00:31:34,989 --> 00:31:37,020
is you suggest CPRT,

974
00:31:37,699 --> 00:31:41,609
and I'm not sure how familiar you are with that or how trained you feel in CPRT,

975
00:31:42,060 --> 00:31:42,479
but

976
00:31:42,699 --> 00:31:44,839
that would be a very happy medium

977
00:31:45,579 --> 00:31:47,430
because then you're working with the parents.

978
00:31:48,189 --> 00:31:48,739
Hopefully,

979
00:31:48,829 --> 00:31:52,329
they would learn to co-parent through CCPT principles,

980
00:31:52,790 --> 00:31:56,890
but 4 year old also gets the benefit of play sessions

981
00:31:57,229 --> 00:31:59,229
and the ability to work through stuff and

982
00:31:59,229 --> 00:32:01,310
build better relationships with her mom and dad.

983
00:32:02,439 --> 00:32:05,619
So I think maybe CPRT is kind of the middle ground

984
00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:08,390
and that may be an option to consider as well.

985
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:08,719
So,

986
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:09,189
Barbara,

987
00:32:09,270 --> 00:32:10,280
thank you so much for the question.

988
00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:11,329
That was really helpful for us.

989
00:32:11,439 --> 00:32:11,680
All right,

990
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:12,640
last and final one.

991
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,199
I know this is a long episode,

992
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:15,459
so thanks for hanging on.

993
00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:16,359
All right,

994
00:32:16,479 --> 00:32:17,140
Florence.

995
00:32:18,790 --> 00:32:19,400
Let's

996
00:32:19,959 --> 00:32:20,640
process this one.

997
00:32:20,719 --> 00:32:22,500
This is actually really interesting as well.

998
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:26,219
I'm confused about what to do with a 10 year old child I'm currently seeing.

999
00:32:26,479 --> 00:32:30,199
This child grew up in a context of neglect and exposure to extreme violence,

1000
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,359
very traumatized and fearful of the world,

1001
00:32:32,469 --> 00:32:33,500
unable to play,

1002
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:36,839
has not played during development with the exception of video games.

1003
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,819
Child refuses to see me and is fearful of my presence and my words.

1004
00:32:41,239 --> 00:32:42,199
Ridicules the playroom,

1005
00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:44,540
stares at the clock to leave as soon as possible.

1006
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,359
How many kids do we have that do that?

1007
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:48,790
I've been seen 6 times.

1008
00:32:49,369 --> 00:32:52,520
If I guide the child to draw or tell stories such as house true person,

1009
00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:55,319
becomes very disregulated and tells incoherent

1010
00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:56,890
stories about violence and trauma,

1011
00:32:56,930 --> 00:32:58,579
and then is unable to tell the difference

1012
00:32:58,579 --> 00:33:00,670
between thoughts and reality and becomes violent.

1013
00:33:01,130 --> 00:33:01,709
At one point,

1014
00:33:01,770 --> 00:33:06,160
I observed free parent-child play with the mother as recommended by my colleagues.

1015
00:33:06,530 --> 00:33:07,010
As usual,

1016
00:33:07,089 --> 00:33:07,890
the child was fearful,

1017
00:33:07,969 --> 00:33:08,449
aggressive,

1018
00:33:08,530 --> 00:33:09,170
withdrawn,

1019
00:33:09,329 --> 00:33:10,729
but at the end of the session was able

1020
00:33:10,729 --> 00:33:13,790
to engage in a collaborative drawing activity led by mom

1021
00:33:13,969 --> 00:33:16,209
and showed imagination and expressed enjoyment.

1022
00:33:16,699 --> 00:33:19,780
I'm not sure that this child has the prerequisites for play therapy

1023
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:23,369
because of traumatic experiences and the activation of memories in my presence.

1024
00:33:23,739 --> 00:33:27,079
Child sees me as a persecutor and is unable to settle down in the space.

1025
00:33:27,780 --> 00:33:31,400
My colleagues suggest that I continue my sessions with mom and child

1026
00:33:31,939 --> 00:33:34,660
together or stop the therapy with the child altogether

1027
00:33:34,660 --> 00:33:36,800
as it is currently causing more harm than good.

1028
00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:40,280
I'm well aware that including the mother would be a deviation from the model.

1029
00:33:40,339 --> 00:33:41,660
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

1030
00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:42,099
Also,

1031
00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:44,839
are there times when play therapy is not recommended for children?

1032
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:46,339
OK.

1033
00:33:46,729 --> 00:33:46,880
So,

1034
00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:47,170
Florence,

1035
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:48,750
thank you so much for this question.

1036
00:33:49,699 --> 00:33:52,089
Let's start with some overarching

1037
00:33:52,229 --> 00:33:52,969
comments.

1038
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:54,579
First and foremost,

1039
00:33:54,989 --> 00:33:58,670
when you have a child that has grown up with this kind of environment,

1040
00:33:58,790 --> 00:33:59,849
this kind of history,

1041
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,219
Attachment is

1042
00:34:02,439 --> 00:34:03,180
difficult.

1043
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,030
Trust is difficult,

1044
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,579
safety is difficult.

1045
00:34:07,510 --> 00:34:10,770
All of that is a given and it's a standard and it's an expectation.

1046
00:34:11,228 --> 00:34:11,418
So,

1047
00:34:11,429 --> 00:34:15,770
we need to recognize when we have kids that come in with this kind of background,

1048
00:34:16,270 --> 00:34:17,728
it's going to be

1049
00:34:17,860 --> 00:34:19,040
a difficult road

1050
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:19,629
for them,

1051
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:20,260
for us,

1052
00:34:20,469 --> 00:34:21,429
for CCPT.

1053
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:27,138
Because there are a lot of components that have to be sorted out first.

1054
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,600
So I don't think anything that you're describing,

1055
00:34:29,668 --> 00:34:31,179
Florence is out of the ordinary.

1056
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,060
I think it's just a matter of there's been a lot that's gone on in this child's life,

1057
00:34:36,438 --> 00:34:39,938
and we have to give time and space for that to get sorted out.

1058
00:34:40,899 --> 00:34:41,270
OK.

1059
00:34:41,389 --> 00:34:41,989
So,

1060
00:34:42,708 --> 00:34:43,110
fearful,

1061
00:34:43,219 --> 00:34:43,909
traumatized,

1062
00:34:43,978 --> 00:34:44,708
unable to play,

1063
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:46,330
has not played during development.

1064
00:34:46,870 --> 00:34:50,100
All of that communicates huge need for CCPT.

1065
00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:53,280
Child refuses to see you,

1066
00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:55,030
fearful of your presence and your words.

1067
00:34:55,610 --> 00:35:00,110
That child would be fearful in presence of fearful and scared of anybody.

1068
00:35:00,949 --> 00:35:02,030
Of anyone's presence,

1069
00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:03,290
of anyone's words.

1070
00:35:03,709 --> 00:35:05,860
Anyone outside of the safety net,

1071
00:35:05,909 --> 00:35:07,570
which it sounds like maybe that's mom.

1072
00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:09,790
is going to be

1073
00:35:10,129 --> 00:35:13,629
something that they're probably not likely to want to deal with.

1074
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,179
It puts them in fight or flight.

1075
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:18,080
It puts them in panic mode.

1076
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,780
The amygdala goes off,

1077
00:35:19,879 --> 00:35:21,500
cortisol levels spike.

1078
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,239
You have all kinds of stuff going on physiologically,

1079
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,729
and then you've got somatic stuff,

1080
00:35:25,919 --> 00:35:27,699
and then you've got anchored stuff,

1081
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:28,699
and I mean,

1082
00:35:28,919 --> 00:35:30,159
I can imagine the swirl.

1083
00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:32,610
But it has nothing to do with you,

1084
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:34,600
that has nothing to do with your playroom,

1085
00:35:34,889 --> 00:35:36,620
that has nothing to do with your words.

1086
00:35:36,969 --> 00:35:38,669
It has nothing to do with

1087
00:35:39,010 --> 00:35:39,649
CCPT.

1088
00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:43,300
It has to do with the junk that the child is carrying around.

1089
00:35:44,219 --> 00:35:44,409
So,

1090
00:35:44,419 --> 00:35:45,959
we have to be able to separate.

1091
00:35:46,580 --> 00:35:48,280
This is the child's issue.

1092
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:49,620
This is not

1093
00:35:49,979 --> 00:35:50,459
me.

1094
00:35:50,860 --> 00:35:52,409
This is not the environment.

1095
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:53,899
This is not the relationship.

1096
00:35:53,969 --> 00:35:55,199
This is not the model.

1097
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,590
We have to be able to see those distinctly and separately because they are.

1098
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:02,790
And here's my concern,

1099
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:05,419
and maybe this was just what you typed and not really what you meant.

1100
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:06,840
I know that sometimes when we,

1101
00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:07,709
we type stuff,

1102
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:08,989
it's not reflective of the,

1103
00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:09,729
the truth.

1104
00:36:10,739 --> 00:36:14,560
Your phrase when I guide the child to draw or tell stories.

1105
00:36:15,899 --> 00:36:16,209
All right,

1106
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,040
I'm concerned by that phrase and maybe it was just

1107
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,320
inadvertent,

1108
00:36:20,780 --> 00:36:23,439
but we're not guiding the child to do anything

1109
00:36:23,780 --> 00:36:24,810
when they're in the playroom with us,

1110
00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:26,540
except for the very first session.

1111
00:36:26,659 --> 00:36:26,860
Yes,

1112
00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:28,320
we would do house tree person,

1113
00:36:28,739 --> 00:36:30,320
but that is

1114
00:36:30,580 --> 00:36:31,840
kind of for a different purpose.

1115
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:34,500
And with a child that is traumatized and

1116
00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:36,979
doesn't want to be there and is disregulated,

1117
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:39,479
we would not do house tree person with that child.

1118
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:44,350
So I'm not sure if that was a one-time thing or if that has been a consistent thing,

1119
00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:47,199
but we're not guiding the child to tell stories.

1120
00:36:47,489 --> 00:36:49,290
We're not guiding the child to draw.

1121
00:36:49,409 --> 00:36:51,760
We're not expecting the child to do anything.

1122
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:56,860
So that makes me question if any of that has been felt or interpreted from the child,

1123
00:36:57,290 --> 00:36:58,270
even subtly.

1124
00:36:58,449 --> 00:36:58,649
If,

1125
00:36:58,729 --> 00:37:02,449
if the child thinks that you are trying to guide them to do something.

1126
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:06,330
That is going to create a ton of resistance.

1127
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,149
It's going to create a ton of distrust.

1128
00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:12,010
It's going to create a ton of barrier.

1129
00:37:12,409 --> 00:37:13,909
So that could be a factor.

1130
00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:14,489
I don't know.

1131
00:37:14,610 --> 00:37:15,290
I haven't been there,

1132
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:15,709
obviously.

1133
00:37:17,290 --> 00:37:17,689
So,

1134
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:19,209
becomes extremely disregulated,

1135
00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:21,070
tells incoherent stories.

1136
00:37:21,939 --> 00:37:24,449
If the child's being forced to tell stories,

1137
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:26,629
I can imagine that that's overwhelming.

1138
00:37:27,949 --> 00:37:28,409
So,

1139
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:31,610
that's something that we would not have as part of CCPT.

1140
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:35,459
When you observed free parent-child play with

1141
00:37:35,459 --> 00:37:37,860
the mother as recommended by my colleagues.

1142
00:37:39,129 --> 00:37:41,729
I'm not really sure why the colleagues would have recommended that,

1143
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,250
but

1144
00:37:42,409 --> 00:37:43,129
that aside.

1145
00:37:44,090 --> 00:37:47,219
If you engage or you observed free play.

1146
00:37:48,389 --> 00:37:49,449
And the child

1147
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:51,850
was exactly the same way with mom

1148
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:53,510
as they were with you.

1149
00:37:54,229 --> 00:37:54,909
They were fearful,

1150
00:37:54,989 --> 00:37:55,550
aggressive,

1151
00:37:55,590 --> 00:37:56,500
and withdrawn,

1152
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:58,250
even with their own mother.

1153
00:37:59,139 --> 00:38:01,449
This is obviously not a you issue.

1154
00:38:01,899 --> 00:38:04,159
This is obviously not a CCPT issue.

1155
00:38:05,110 --> 00:38:07,820
The person with whom the child has bonded the most.

1156
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,419
It's still an issue when the child sits and plays.

1157
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,370
So this is pervasive.

1158
00:38:15,439 --> 00:38:16,679
This is not situational.

1159
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,149
This is not circumstantial.

1160
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,149
This is obviously the junk that the child is dealing with,

1161
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,860
and the child is never

1162
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,080
absolute on purpose.

1163
00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:25,500
The child is never.

1164
00:38:26,379 --> 00:38:27,719
Going to overcome this

1165
00:38:27,939 --> 00:38:29,889
if they're not given the therapeutic relationship and the

1166
00:38:30,139 --> 00:38:32,459
therapeutic environment in which to do so.

1167
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:38,070
So when we can see that the child is struggling with mom,

1168
00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:40,010
the same way the child is struggling with you.

1169
00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:45,300
That is a massive indication of how desperately this child needs CCPT.

1170
00:38:46,699 --> 00:38:47,610
By the end of the session,

1171
00:38:47,659 --> 00:38:51,340
the child was able to engage in drawing activity led by mom.

1172
00:38:51,459 --> 00:38:52,889
There's my other red flag.

1173
00:38:53,379 --> 00:38:54,770
Mom should not be leading.

1174
00:38:54,899 --> 00:38:59,860
This is why we don't let parents in the room because now we have a deviation from CCPT.

1175
00:39:00,929 --> 00:39:01,969
But toward the end,

1176
00:39:02,050 --> 00:39:03,090
the child regulated,

1177
00:39:03,209 --> 00:39:03,830
that's

1178
00:39:04,090 --> 00:39:04,810
the good news.

1179
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:08,209
That means the child was able to calm down,

1180
00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:10,159
the child was able to self-control,

1181
00:39:10,409 --> 00:39:13,669
the child was able to get themselves out of a state of dysregulation

1182
00:39:14,010 --> 00:39:15,189
and was able to engage.

1183
00:39:15,689 --> 00:39:17,949
That bodes really positively

1184
00:39:18,209 --> 00:39:19,090
for working with you,

1185
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:19,770
Florence.

1186
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:22,800
And so then your question,

1187
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,679
I'm not sure that this child has the prerequisites for play therapy.

1188
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:29,340
This child 100% has the prerequisites for play therapy.

1189
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,379
Everything you're describing

1190
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,620
is exactly what CCPT is all about.

1191
00:39:35,850 --> 00:39:36,929
Traumatic experiences,

1192
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:39,669
we know trauma gets addressed with CCPT.

1193
00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:41,250
Activation of memories,

1194
00:39:41,330 --> 00:39:43,290
we know that gets addressed in CCPT.

1195
00:39:44,379 --> 00:39:44,570
So,

1196
00:39:44,580 --> 00:39:44,860
yes,

1197
00:39:44,969 --> 00:39:45,739
absolutely,

1198
00:39:45,899 --> 00:39:47,320
CCPT is helpful.

1199
00:39:48,020 --> 00:39:48,439
And

1200
00:39:48,580 --> 00:39:51,550
I don't think child sees you as a persecutor.

1201
00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:51,939
We,

1202
00:39:52,030 --> 00:39:52,879
we do this a lot.

1203
00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:54,719
We get caught up in

1204
00:39:55,649 --> 00:39:56,370
We

1205
00:39:56,729 --> 00:39:58,689
assume or presume.

1206
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,050
That this is what the child thinks,

1207
00:40:01,090 --> 00:40:02,250
this is what the child feels,

1208
00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:03,709
this is what the child's going through.

1209
00:40:04,169 --> 00:40:05,489
I'm doing this to the child.

1210
00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:07,010
I'm making the child feel this.

1211
00:40:07,129 --> 00:40:08,949
This is so difficult because of

1212
00:40:09,530 --> 00:40:11,129
we're using our cognitive brains.

1213
00:40:11,169 --> 00:40:12,510
This is adulthood bias.

1214
00:40:13,169 --> 00:40:14,959
We're using our adult brains,

1215
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:15,870
our cognitive,

1216
00:40:15,929 --> 00:40:16,550
logical,

1217
00:40:16,610 --> 00:40:17,830
rational brains

1218
00:40:18,489 --> 00:40:19,830
to draw conclusions,

1219
00:40:20,129 --> 00:40:22,699
and they're probably really off the mark.

1220
00:40:23,610 --> 00:40:26,060
I don't think this child sees you as a persecutor.

1221
00:40:26,139 --> 00:40:28,600
I think this child is scared to death.

1222
00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:31,719
To work on the junk that needs to be addressed.

1223
00:40:33,169 --> 00:40:35,600
And the child is very well aware

1224
00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:38,679
that you are at the center of

1225
00:40:38,979 --> 00:40:40,489
the child needing to work through their junk,

1226
00:40:40,689 --> 00:40:41,010
but

1227
00:40:41,139 --> 00:40:42,379
you're not the persecutor.

1228
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:45,189
And unable to settle down in the space,

1229
00:40:45,229 --> 00:40:46,010
of course

1230
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,100
it's scary.

1231
00:40:47,550 --> 00:40:48,350
Therapy's hard.

1232
00:40:48,669 --> 00:40:50,770
Therapy's overwhelming on the best of days,

1233
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,439
and this kid's been through the wringer.

1234
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,669
So of course this is hard and it's overwhelming,

1235
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,239
and it's going to be difficult to settle down,

1236
00:40:56,310 --> 00:40:58,020
but the child is able to.

1237
00:40:58,520 --> 00:40:59,469
The child will.

1238
00:41:00,389 --> 00:41:03,040
We have to let the child handle things their way,

1239
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:03,560
their time,

1240
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:04,300
their pace.

1241
00:41:05,659 --> 00:41:09,199
So colleagues suggest that you continue sessions with mom and child.

1242
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,110
Absolutely not.

1243
00:41:11,820 --> 00:41:14,050
Or stop the therapy with the child altogether?

1244
00:41:14,290 --> 00:41:15,429
Absolutely not.

1245
00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:18,449
Both of those would be detrimental to the child's healing.

1246
00:41:19,330 --> 00:41:20,429
We stay the course.

1247
00:41:20,969 --> 00:41:22,510
Y'all trust the process.

1248
00:41:22,810 --> 00:41:23,300
I know,

1249
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,510
broken record syndrome,

1250
00:41:24,570 --> 00:41:24,909
but

1251
00:41:25,219 --> 00:41:26,399
trust the process.

1252
00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:29,889
CCPT is the best thing for this kid.

1253
00:41:31,959 --> 00:41:32,689
You,

1254
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:33,959
the playroom,

1255
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,060
and the child.

1256
00:41:36,209 --> 00:41:38,149
And CCPT at the heart of it all.

1257
00:41:38,610 --> 00:41:40,469
That is the best thing for this child.

1258
00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:43,939
You said

1259
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,340
this is currently causing more harm than good.

1260
00:41:46,830 --> 00:41:49,340
That's another thing that we have to stop saying to ourselves.

1261
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:52,360
You're not doing more harm than good.

1262
00:41:52,439 --> 00:41:54,379
Are you unconditionally loving that kid?

1263
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,159
Are you unconditionally accepting that kid?

1264
00:41:57,979 --> 00:42:01,139
Are you providing absolute trust that the child's going to do what

1265
00:42:01,139 --> 00:42:03,620
the child needs to do when the child is able and willing?

1266
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:06,310
Are you providing the environment

1267
00:42:06,649 --> 00:42:08,340
that allows for CCPT to happen?

1268
00:42:08,409 --> 00:42:10,030
Are you providing the relationship

1269
00:42:10,169 --> 00:42:11,850
that allows for CCPT to happen?

1270
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:14,219
Are you willing to be patient?

1271
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,179
Are you willing to wait it out?

1272
00:42:16,479 --> 00:42:17,989
Are you willing to trust the process?

1273
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:20,500
None of that is harmful.

1274
00:42:21,620 --> 00:42:25,360
Harm is forcing a kid to do something that they're not willing or able to do.

1275
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:27,300
Harm

1276
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,060
is having an agenda.

1277
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,159
Harm is forcing something,

1278
00:42:31,290 --> 00:42:32,040
pushing something,

1279
00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:32,800
leading something,

1280
00:42:32,879 --> 00:42:33,760
guiding something.

1281
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,959
None of that is CCPT.

1282
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:38,860
There is no harm

1283
00:42:39,149 --> 00:42:40,459
that is taking place

1284
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,620
and saying,

1285
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,219
I'm ready to go back to the playroom if you are.

1286
00:42:45,149 --> 00:42:47,290
And if the child chooses not to go back,

1287
00:42:47,669 --> 00:42:48,669
we honor that too.

1288
00:42:48,830 --> 00:42:50,320
If the child chooses to go back,

1289
00:42:50,429 --> 00:42:51,030
we honor that.

1290
00:42:51,110 --> 00:42:52,429
If the child chooses to play,

1291
00:42:52,659 --> 00:42:53,189
we honor that.

1292
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:54,669
If the child chooses not to play,

1293
00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:55,469
we honor that.

1294
00:42:55,669 --> 00:42:56,949
If the child chooses to talk,

1295
00:42:57,070 --> 00:42:57,590
we honor it,

1296
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:58,189
not talk,

1297
00:42:58,310 --> 00:42:59,090
we honor it.

1298
00:42:59,709 --> 00:43:01,469
There is no harm in that.

1299
00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:04,060
You're not doing more harm than good,

1300
00:43:04,139 --> 00:43:04,580
Florence.

1301
00:43:05,810 --> 00:43:06,639
And yes,

1302
00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:09,080
including the mother would be a deviation from the model.

1303
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,419
So stay the course.

1304
00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:13,280
Trust the process.

1305
00:43:14,399 --> 00:43:16,139
I know that we've all

1306
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,479
faced situations like this,

1307
00:43:18,489 --> 00:43:20,300
and we've all played with kids like this.

1308
00:43:21,290 --> 00:43:23,949
Anyone that's done CCPT for any length of time.

1309
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,439
We've all had a child like this.

1310
00:43:27,469 --> 00:43:29,520
The history is just

1311
00:43:29,879 --> 00:43:32,560
layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of junk.

1312
00:43:33,489 --> 00:43:35,040
And the kid is like,

1313
00:43:35,169 --> 00:43:36,189
I don't want

1314
00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:38,330
more difficulty in my life.

1315
00:43:38,699 --> 00:43:40,010
No thank you to therapy.

1316
00:43:41,489 --> 00:43:43,159
But it's the best thing for them,

1317
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:44,270
and they will

1318
00:43:44,649 --> 00:43:45,949
do what they need to do.

1319
00:43:46,330 --> 00:43:47,469
We just stay out of their way.

1320
00:43:48,489 --> 00:43:49,600
So I hope that that's helpful.

1321
00:43:49,889 --> 00:43:51,800
Thank you for hanging out with me for,

1322
00:43:51,969 --> 00:43:52,209
gosh,

1323
00:43:52,250 --> 00:43:53,229
45 minutes.

1324
00:43:54,050 --> 00:43:56,709
And thank you for indulging a lightning round.

1325
00:43:56,850 --> 00:43:59,889
I think that sometimes it's helpful for us to have a whole bunch of questions at once.

1326
00:44:00,010 --> 00:44:00,350
So,

1327
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,840
it helps me get caught up and it helps you all have more food for thought for the week,

1328
00:44:03,889 --> 00:44:04,510
I suppose.

1329
00:44:04,929 --> 00:44:05,770
I love you all so much.

1330
00:44:05,860 --> 00:44:06,929
I hope that you have a great week.

1331
00:44:07,010 --> 00:44:07,610
Thanks for hanging out.

1332
00:44:07,669 --> 00:44:08,330
I'll talk soon.

1333
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:08,729
Bye.

1334
00:44:09,729 --> 00:44:13,520
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

1335
00:44:13,770 --> 00:44:15,689
For more episodes and resources,

1336
00:44:15,850 --> 00:44:20,649
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.