Dhamma Political Strategy: Preceptocracy, Authenticity, & a Pony of Love for Everyone | Ayya Sobhanā

[music]
Welcome to a [clears throat] Wednesday
with Clear Mountain. Today we're joined
by Ya Soa from the East Coast. Ya, it's
so good to have you with us.
>> Yes, my pleasure.
>> So, a brief introduction.
Ayasoba is a Harvard graduate and
trained with master dhham and meditation
teacher Bonte Henapola Gunaratina or
Bonte Gi for 25 years. She went forth
into monastic life as a seminary in 2003
and obtained full bikuni ordination at
Dambulia Sri Lanka in 2006. In 2010
moved from the bin society of West
Virginia to Arana awakening forest
hermitage. In 2016, she was appointed
vice abbis of Damadrini monastery, the
Bunis community new training monastery
in California. In 2025, this year uh or
last year rather, she moved to
Emptycloud Monastery in Newark, New
Jersey to lead the community there. Her
primary practice is the eight-fold noble
path, integration of meditation with
ethical living and compassionate
relationships for the sake of
liberation. And just to add my own um
kind of bit of uh praise here, is one of
the monastics. I watch most of her
dharma talks and Q&As. Uh every Friday
she does a monk chat as well on um
EmptyCloud's YouTube channel and so
value her dharma, her wisdom, and we're
just delighted that we finally got her
to join um our kind of for an interview.
So thank you so much.
>> Yeah.
Um I maybe to begin with just um I'm
wondering if you could tell us about the
moments of faith that led to you uh
ordaining uh within your life. What kind
of moments of faith stand out as key in
terms of you coming to robes?
>> Okay. Uh I would say that
uh first of all my family background was
religious. Um we our family was
Catholic.
And um I had a very inspiring uh
connection with some of the with men's
uh as a a young girl and teenager. It
was uh such an inspiration to me uh to
meet these uh peaceful
but powerful highly intelligent
well-educated
meditative
practitioners at that young age
and that uh Catholicism was not the path
for me. Uh but because of that
background and that connection, the
monastic form seemed
like the most logical uh thing.
And now when I uh first encountered the
uh dharma,
I was in a a situation that was u like a
lot of people in the world with a lot of
ups and downs and this and that and
emotions and so forth. A um
I was uh in recovery. That's part of my
story. and um it came to the part of the
12step program where you're supposed to
take up prayer and meditation. So I was
shopping around for some community for
that purpose and uh a friend gave me a
tip uh that there was a certain
um
uh practice called vipasana that had no
mumbo jumbo,
no hocus pocus. You know what hocus
pocus means?
>> Okay.
It's bit like Yeah.
Hocus pocus is a very mean satirical
um reference to the holy communion of
the Catholic faith where they I looked
up the bread and there's a hulk sque
this is the body [laughter]
>> that become hocus focus
but I I was uh finding with different
spiritual groups that I attended
uh
there was some kind of a a neediness
that I was getting
uh uh from these other groups and um I
wanted wanting money
uh
uh some just instabilities. I was I was
quite cynical at that time until I I got
into this course taught by a Viku whose
name I have forgotten, an American um
who gave a class on the April Noble Path
and he was such an embodiment of
gentleness and generosity.
Um,
I would go there once a week uh to a
very warm
uh dimly lit uh room in a church and he
would give this lecture this very soft
uh voice and I would fall asleep.
[laughter]
Um but when I apologized for that
there was like not the least centila of
resentment or judgment about that and
the monk said well something in your
life is really tiresome right now you
see so so it were it was those kind of
um demonstrations of uh
happiness that that could not be
disturbed. Uh that was my first
inspiration. Now that monk introduced
the clouds to bond
and in meeting Gunarata I have very much
a similar experience uh without
fully or even beginning to understand
the significance of the Dharma. uh I was
only inspired by the uh personality and
character of that vehicle and I made a a
personal vow at that time to um make an
effort for the period of one year to
just
so I had enough faith to be willing to
go that far and then I would find out
and and see if it worked. uh the one
year became two years and
I almost uh immediately began to
experience a really profound uh
transformation and change to some of the
issues that I had at that time. And so
then even still not
really understanding the aop path, it
was because of the transformative
power of the uh of the mindfulness
practice that I was learning and also
the meta practice that I was learning
that convinced me that there was
something there. So I just kept
practicing and it kept working and
slowly slowly slowly uh the actual
some kind of intellectual understanding
of why this program is so um
effective uh caught up to what I was
experiencing by simply following the
directions.
a um how does this introduction and
interest in meditation uh
chronologically fit in with your Harvard
education? Were you learning about
meditation while you were at Harvard or
is this before or after?
>> Well, it was much later.
>> Much later.
>> Yeah. I was already 35 years old or so
when I got there started seriously with
Donna. I did um I met uh Ramdas at
Harvard
>> but it didn't take
[laughter]
>> and did do you see any other through
lines with um the intellectual uh skills
that you were were gaining at Harvard
that you kind of just either
intentionally or just because of that
training took into your monastic life.
Were you interested in the scholastic
side of Buddhism from the beginning or
did that come later?
Uh
the
um
as a young person,
I would say that um
my real religion
uh was not Catholicism. My real religion
was science.
>> I had a great love for scientific
factoids.
uh you know little uh snippets and um if
uh something uh appeared to me to be uh
scientifically true then it seemed to be
real.
Um so
uh when I came to the uh Buddhism
uh one of the qualities of Baja Naraja
is you know he is quite interested in
spreading the dharma to the western
world um even as a child he wanted to
teach foreigners about the dharma and
and so he takes a lot of care to make
the practice accessible by
uh not being so much front and center
with the u
ceremonial
aspects or the uh the
aspects that uh uh would would challenge
the sensibilities of westerners. So I
got it I got this extreme sort of like a
rational
rendition like naras um you know back in
the back in the 50s Buddhism was being
presented to the western world as being
a scientific
uh faith um and and that was kind of the
version that I got at the beginning and
and so that that helped me. Um
uh the other part that I think saved my
life not at the very beginning but later
on is that
I always had the
uh confidence to uh find my own way to
cut my own path to do my own
investigations
to uh uh discover
that which I could realize within myself
um during the early uh years especially
while I was in the monastic form I was
jumping ahead another 10 years so it was
10 years from when I met Baji to um
entering monastic training
um
uh undertaking the formalities of
monastic etiquette and so forth was
challenging
and there was a point at which I
realized
that I I had to be authentic
even if it meant that I might seem to be
less skillful
and that I I could only present what I
actually had and what I actually had had
realized.
And so I believe that that um uh the
confidence to uh go forward in that way
uh could have been um because of my
education.
>> I I want to Oh, sorry. Did I Were you
going to say more?
>> It's okay. Go ahead. I I really I
remember I was listening to your uh
biography and this moment came up and it
felt very meaningful um where you say,
you know, you'd gone to Bob in a society
and realized that you were trying to be
trying to live up to these teachings in
a way that was inauthentic and making
you I think you said like a wooden doll
and you actually made a vow to be as
authentic as you could even if it meant
it didn't come across as beautifully as
you know the wooden all might have. Um
can you speak about that vow and that
struggle for authenticity and you know
how you've navigated that for for our
listeners who similarly find themselves
you know caught between wanting to be
quote unquote good Buddhists and also
wanting to be authentic on this path.
What what thoughts would you have for
them?
>> Well, you know, my approach has actually
changed since that time.
A few years ago, the community at the
Damagi was so kind and generous. They
gave me a four month retreat. So they
they supported me for four months. And
um uh uh during that time uh three of
those months I was sitting in a cabin
out at out at the Aranabody Hermitage in
the forest uh with no responsibilities
except to receive a meal once a day.
uh I
began to wonder whether a person can
help another person
and I started studying that in the
sutas. And I I noticed that the chief
way in which a person helps another was
the way the Buddha helped um humans and
gods. uh by promagating, explaining and
pointing out the dharma
>> and the chief way in which she advised
the symb to help was to um accurately
represent the dharma that the Buddha was
giving.
And
he said that the chief harm
that uh we could do would be to
misrepresent the teachings of the
Buddha. And that doing such a harmful
thing as misrepresenting the Buddha uh
would cause tremendous harm to ourselves
and to others and um lead to could lead
to you know eons in a lawful state. So I
am I then um am actually more
conservative now and less interested in
that creative authentic side. It was
like when I was younger I wanted to
discover a new end that had never been
known by anybody else before. Um that
was just my personal
um discovery of something that nobody
else knew about until I came along.
[laughter]
And and and now um I still believe
strongly that humans are bound by the
culture um that we live in. And so
there's you know physical biological
evolution and there's also cultural
evolution. So what we are uh capable of
realizing or capable of understanding
what we're even capable of perceiving is
very much
uh limited and bound by the culture in
which we exist. Uh so then uh to find
a link or a matchup
between what I'm able to see in the here
or now and what has been handed down uh
from what the
Buddha was able to uh not see and what
the early disciples were able to not
see. That's kind of
a miracle and it's also something it's
both fantastic and something that should
be approached with some humility.
Um but uh uh ne nevertheless
um when I was uh younger I uh spent a
long time working with the five
aggregates doing my own system uh
correlating
uh the five aggregates uh with the way
that um a scientist called or a science
writer called Antonio Damasio
um explains about um emotions and
cognitive science
and um you know several other writers
and philosophers of mind. So I I meshed
those things up and I applied uh that
teaching to a way of what I call working
with emotions the Buddhist way. Um
that you know for it's like a it's like
a juggernaut. All those factors are
working together in a way which is
powerful and irresistible. But if you
can divide them up, you can divide and
conquer. And then if you can change or
shift one of the elements, then the
whole uh machinery then starts to slow
down until it it finally
uh you're able to regain control of it.
Um uh regarding the body um
I wanted to uh
you know the mind body are connected. So
if the mind is uptight and the body is
tense those two things are supporting
each other. If I can learn how to relax
the body calm the body that helps me to
unlock whatever rigidity is happening in
the mind. Um uh feelings are so uh
feelings are like the gasoline.
>> So in Damascio
um uh the feelings
are are how
all of our faculties become
activated in a very useful and wholesome
way.
um uh we become physically uh mentally
psychologically
very fast very intuitively able to do
what we need to do to extend our life
and to protect our life and for Damasio
this was the most wonderful thing one of
his books it's called self comes to mind
and he thought it was really fantastic
how a person no matter what happens to
them they can always create a self
so so about
um
uh just recognizing the the
purpose of of it and having like a
forgiving attitude. It's like um when
feeling comes up, it's like I I know you
mean well, [snorts]
although you're not you're not wise, but
you mean well.
>> You know, those feelings are come up
because the feelings are trying to help
me. And so so with that that forgiveness
and then um likewise um the um for the
perceptions my mantra was is that really
true [snorts] or valitions
my
uh technique was to personify the uh
intention and I would speak to the
emotion and say u like okay Mrs.
if you were in charge, what do you
really want to do right now? And
[snorts] often the result was so
shocking that [laughter]
I don't want to do that. [laughter]
And and and then the and then the
consciousness
is actually the not only grasping the
other things, but it's like the suana of
of suffering because it's the
consciousness that then wants to rush
ahead to the next part.
So, so that
uh that those tricks that I were so
helpful to me
uh 15 or 20 years ago actually
are quite I don't need them so much
anymore. Uh but they're quite good for
teaching because uh I find a lot of
people find those tips useful. I'm going
to tell you one other tip that I um I
discovered just when I was just getting
started. It was like the last I took a
long retreat at IMS just before
ordaining and um um the slogan is um a
pony of love for every girl.
>> Say that again.
>> A pony of love
for every girl. H
>> at that time it I was u in grief because
of the loss of rel a dear one who had
passed away
and uh it was a bit of a roller coaster
during that retreat. Um but eventually I
I had a dream a
a serious robot and some satellite
communication company had a merger and
their slogan of the new company was a
pony of love for every girl.
So the satellite company,
the telecommunication company represents
NAMA because it's mental and suck
represents Rupa because it's stuff
[snorts] and both of those companies
were going bankrupt at the time. So the
Namarupa is bankrupt. [snorts]
[laughter]
Yeah, the pony of love is like those
little toys that girls have, you know,
like the purple ponies with the big tail
and the big mane and so forth.
>> My little pony. Oh, yeah. [laughter]
Yeah, of course.
>> After that for the sometime on the
retreat, I I had the my trick was
uh whenever I was distracted from the
meditation by some thought or feeling,
I would give that I would have a budget.
I would give [snorts] her one note,
no more than one note of what was going
on and then I would give a pony of life
to that problem
>> and then return to the meditation.
[snorts]
And so this is what I'm saying is is
that I feel like because I went to
Harvard, I have the right to uh
[clears throat and laughter]
to use my own imagination.
to uh find my own solutions and and I
believe that you know all the books in
the library are not worth as much as um
a solution that somebody finds uh that's
meaningful and appropriate for them just
at that moment that's the truth that
helps them to make progress.
I thank you. Thank you so much. Um those
sound those are very unique, very
creative ways of in my mind just
maturing that uh self sense of
authenticity. Um
>> and yeah, using those reframing
Damasio's and your own reframing of the
the five aggregates is helpful and the
pony of love for every girl. Um
>> Power Rangers of Patience.
>> All right, do those too
>> for every boy.
>> Yeah. and girls who like it.
>> And girls, yeah, anybody can get a Power
Ranger or a pony. Um, but I actually am
curious to go back to something that you
uh pointed to is just working in those
12step groups. I know a number of
monastics and certainly lots of
practitioners who have gone one way or
the other had dharma be their door to
the 12step groups like enter in and you
know think they're going to do a lot of
meditation and realize that they've got
a lot of house cleaning to do with the
rest of their lives and so they join a
12step group and then as you were
describing uh joining a 12step group and
taking that uh I believe it's the 11th
or 12th step and taking in practicing
meditation could you say more about
that. Um
maybe in your own case, how that
relationship matured and would you
recommend is a Buddhist monastery a
replacement for a 12step group or uh are
they do they serve totally different
purposes?
Well, 12step groups have their own well
especially providing a fellowship and um
uh uh a really really wonderful uh
practical support uh for getting sober
and staying sober.
I did have one experience actually. Um I
was a monastic and this was I already at
that point by the way this year I shall
have 40 years of sobriety.
Suad.
>> At that point, I had about approximately
20 years of sobriety and um I was in a a
uh
uh somewhat
uh in some ways the time that I spent in
Sri Lanka was um alienated alienating
because of language and cultural
differences.
And I had an experience where I found
that
I was able to check out an escape from
that unpleasant reality.
that the addictive mind
uh that was so uh used to escaping by
means of substances
actually
was still completely there and
completely knew how to escape from
reality
uh without doing anything or taking
anything. I was able to escape and I was
able to experience all of the ensuing um
arising of mental illness and anxiety.
So that were the side effects of the
addictive pattern.
So I believe that uh in the dharma the
um
uh uh teaching of the four noble truths.
is that exactly that craving which is
the cause of all suffering. Um the
craving for pleasure is uh an expression
of how life itself is the opportunity
for some addictive uh consumption uh for
the hydonic treadmill. [snorts] Um and
uh
uh but the
uh solution in the Donna is not the same
solution as in the 12step programs. Uh
so the uh eightstep program goes further
than the 12step program.
However, I got another slogan out of my
bad experience um
of u
uh temporarily
escaping mentally and my slogan is um
you must be present to win.
So that I can't afford to escape from
reality.
>> That's a danger. I have to be vigilant
and mindful at all times to not allow
myself to escape from reality.
Um, yeah,
>> I I love that the eightstep program goes
farther than the 12step. And just some
of the other things you pointed out,
that skillful means of talk, seeing what
your intention wants to do, and then I
just know so many of mine I I really
would cringe and uh not want to follow
that if I really asked that question.
And I appreciate your
maturing of perspective that you spoke
about where you you actually began to
realize that these moments of inventing
kind of a novel way of approaching the
dharma or evaluating its truth by where
you really resonated with your own
cultural conditioning wasn't the beall
endall and and really becoming more and
more careful about representing the
dharma faithfully. And I know that's
something we also work with quite a lot.
And it's something I've seen in your
your teachings is you reference the
Buddhist words constantly and know them
deeply. And I you know we love this. Um
so I wanted to ask you um what is your
favorite suta? And I know part of the
answer or at least one you've brought up
is the Datu Vibbanga Suta which uh isn't
not a very well-known suta but is really
loved by those who who do touch it. And
so you know if that is indeed the answer
then if you could explain why or if
there's another suta that really comes
to mind please uh talk about that
instead. Um that was a very leading
question.
>> Dr. Fibra has is uh u been a a
touchstone of my life. Um the uh
poignency of the framing story obviously
is is a a big appeal.
um the uh
introduction the first part of the sur
um when I'm speaking about
um the protecting truth uh in terms of
uh the review of the uh six sense basis
uh
was uh something that taught me how to
approach approach sutras.
uh uh this the sequence in that sa is um
reviewing the six senses then uh looking
at the four elements and going to the
consciousness element
and u uh what I I believe is that uh
presentations they may seem to be a
discursive or
a sort of a ir a rational discursive
u laying out of
um uh doctrine
that actually uh what's being offered is
a guided meditation.
So that preliminary to practicing the
elements meditation to practice the
contemplation of the six senses and to
um awaken and become alive and uh to uh
develop the
the
uh lively perception of what's happening
through the uh through the senses. Then
uh turning to the elements
uh and and having um those uh uh those
practices um
lead uh
to the uh
um a deeper samadei into the a chance to
uh realize
that uh choice point that uh one can
either um stay uh in a foremost realm
for many a long time, many or else one
one can realize just at that point that
um the the state of meditation itself
[laughter] is uh
conditioned [clears throat]
impermanent uh therefore suffering
therefore not the refuge and then
turning toward that turn to a new mind
the descriptions of the uh
characteristics of what it's like to be
enlightened
uh had been a point of uh curiosity for
me for a long time. And that was um the
first um uh description of the the
meaning of enlightenment
uh that really came home to me and and
um became a centering factor for me. uh
without making any claims upon ourel,
it's simply so useful to have something
like a north star where you have a
strong image of what it is we're trying
to aim for, what it will be like when we
get home to what we're aiming for. And
then with those uh even though if it's
only a story at the level of
understanding that we have having that
kind of clarity can um help to guide us
because we know whether we're going
towards or away uh from those states.
Yeah, since that time um I think I
I've noticed
uh more uh sutas and more in their uh
teachings about um you know how how
wisdom arises about the whole how the
whole path fits together
and uh many more well actually almost
every suda you have or many many sudas
that conclude with enlightenment right
but when we're young in the in the in
the practice and when we don't get it
then we just kind of skip that part and
we we uh study the the problem statement
at the beginning that says how we suffer
and um and we just skim over the part at
the at the end which is about how we
awaken.
So a you're speaking here about
Majimakai 140 for those who don't know
and it's beautifully framed by a
wanderer goes to rest in a cow shed and
sees another monastic there and they
start talking and only later does that
uh wanderer realize that it's the Buddha
he's talking to at the end of the night
when they reveal his identity and I'm
curious I you spoke about this north
star of this vision of enlightenment
that really resonated with you. What
what is that north star? what what
resonates or has stuck with you from
that suta?
Uh
the uh thought that uh well practicing
for peace
uh that at the last moment at the last
breath uh that there's no preference for
either becoming or not becoming and that
then because there's no preference uh
there's no disturbance because there's
no disturbance um then uh one becomes a
sage at peace.
I one um close suta to that majima 137
the salayatana vibanga uh the exhibition
on the six uh sense bases you've also
spoken about just a month ago and I was
re falling into it uh refalling in love
with that suta at the exact same time
that you were going over that and that
suta speaks about um renuncient and
domestic happiness unhappiness or
happiness, sadness, and equinimity.
>> And I'm curious if you could talk a
little bit about that in the case of
yourself when you move from being a lay
person to living with bonte gi what is
domestic sadness, happiness, and how
does that differ from renuncient sadness
and happiness in your own case?
>> Um, I have to say that
I have a disability about the six
senses. This is a like a personality
type. So as an INTP personality
um a uh intuitive perceptive kind of
personality
um what's coming into the senses is much
less real to me than the internal
states.
>> You're not an F. You're not a feeler.
Okay.
>> No, not a feeling.
>> I'm a T. I'm a T, too. All right.
[laughter]
High five. No. Okay. Okay.
>> And so it's been actually a longer trail
for me to uh get to the point of
uh understanding
uh why to be um concerned about um the
six senses.
uh
the uh
uh so I I have a I have a concept about
that but nevertheless uh feeling I'm I'm
really clear about feeling um I'm I'm
good on feeling I know what I I I can
recognize uh feelings very quickly um
and I'm I have a lot of freedom towards
um feeling when I experience it uh but
like how the feeling comes to be because
of contact is is still a uh something
that I I need to take a special effort
to uh be able to catch hold of that. Um
my idea about the householder feelings
is not quite in the format of this. So
sut
my idea is that we live in the kama loca
which is the world uh which is governed
by sensual desire and I believe that the
sensual desire that we're subjected to
is not only about pleasures like you
know have fun see something beautiful
um fall in love all those um uh kinds of
uh
u common ideas about sensual pleasure.
Um, but that
also
a lot of the creatures of the rat race
are part of the kamaloka. So part of
worldly happiness is to have a
[laughter] comfortable status in the
world. Uh to have uh a good house with a
good roof.
uh to have a good barn filled with grain
or a good bank account filled with
money. Uh to have a lot of relatives uh
to be loved and respected by all of the
relatives. uh to have um employees and
to be um respected and obeyed by all the
employees and and um having uh that
whole uh carcass of extraments
is uh protecting
uh the uh possibility to uh live in
comfort and not to have the danger that
the uh pleasant uh feelings uh that we
experience today are not going should
disappear tomorrow. Uh so all of those
things are part of worldly pleasure and
I think you you get that in in the
teaching about the household displeasure
like the the householder sadness to say
oh I had something before now I've lost
what was me what was me so so that's
that's really fitting into that idea.
Oh,
then um
uh the uh the renunciate pleasure then
uh
uh do those uh
at the intermediate level like the
training level. um come to being
equim patient to be able to patiently
bear with all of the ups and downs and
inconveniences and um things that may
happen in life not to be stressed by any
type of um minor disappointment and not
to not to be u
excited u by superficial gains. Um so
the whole um the deep equinimity towards
the eight worldly winds is is is part of
that that middle section of the of the
trainee kind of feeling. [clears throat]
Um and then uh the u uh the last uh set
of uh
uh with working with feeling that
culminates in um
enlightenment
is
a version of a progression of a
meditative states.
[clears throat]
And did uh the renunciate sadness take
you to Bhavna and did renunciate
happiness keep you there? Did it were
you immediately filled with renunciate
happiness when you finally moved to the
monastery?
>> No, it was my karma that took me to the
monastery.
>> That must have [snorts] been my past
life parties that took me there.
uh I had been attending
uh very regularly for 10 years. I had
the desire to go forth because
um
I thought I had a gift
for speaking about the dharma
and I couldn't visualize being a lay
dharma teacher.
Uh [clears throat]
but then um it so happened uh that uh my
life partner and I decided to um
uh sell
uh the condominium uh I quit my job. My
partner was disabled. Uh we decided to
hike the Appalachian Trail for one year,
meditate for one year and after that we
would decide whether to split up and I
would go forth.
Um however the one year of hiking turned
into uh three years punctuated by
spending winters at the bottom of the
society
and then at the end of the second year
my partner passed away.
>> Mhm.
>> So at that point my parents were
deceased. I had no responsibilities
towards them and my life partner was
deceased. I didn't have that
responsibility. I didn't have children.
Uh I didn't have job a job. I didn't
have any debts. All my um
worldly possessions were in a storage
locker
and
I had been spending a month and end of
the a monastery. Uh so it was just the
natural thing to go there like that was
my family
and it just it just was a a gradual
development and uh uh so then uh I uh
applied uh uh
shortly after after um my partner passed
away. I had for one more year and then
applied for the uh the monastic
training. So it was really it really
just happened naturally. It was just the
logical thing to do. There was nothing
else I wanted. Um and my um
uh path from starting the training to
getting the bikini new ordination was
also compared to many other women it was
very fast and smooth.
>> So that's another reason I had the
partner is to have good luck and to have
a a a teacher who was able to sponsor
me. So I was able to get my full
donation pretty much right on time. Now,
as far as the faith that kept me going,
uh,
I I never had a doubt.
And once I got on this path, I just I
never
wanted to wanted to do anything else.
>> So, I I didn't struggle with that. I
just keep going because this seems like
the natural best life for me.
>> That's beautiful. I am. And I had wanted
to ask about the Appalachian Trail. So
I'm glad you touched on it. Um I want to
bring you know I think it's very
inspiring to hear about the path of uh
you know individuals like yourself and I
want to bring this very practically to
our listeners most of whom who aren't
monastics. um something I know is on
people's minds right now uh and you're
over on the east coast uh near New York
uh and everything that's happening with
politics etc. Um, you know, without
going into names or anything like that,
um, what would you what advice would you
give to people navigating
uh, anger, fear, um, all these emotions
that are stirred up by the state of the
world? Uh, right now at any time, I
suppose. Um, yeah. What what practical
advice would you give for our listeners
who are really feeling like this is a
deep deep splinter of suffering in their
life that dominates a lot of their
mental space?
>> Well, [snorts]
I do have a a political program
and that is um
uh I'm against uh killing
uh stealing
>> [snorts]
>> lying,
um, uh, sexual misconduct
and, uh, uh, drunkenness.
And I recommend, uh, voting for a person
who is the best on that those criteria.
[snorts]
So that's that's my that's my political
program. Um the greatest danger that we
face um in the presence of so much
unskilled behavior uh so much evil uh so
much um intentional
uh stirring up of of hatred as a
political strategy. Um then
uh we are deeply deeply at danger if we
let ourselves become uh sucked into that
uh to fall into hatred. So if you would
uh anybody who would like to
uh delight in the misfortune of their
political enemies
or anybody who uh would not
sincerely practice the compassionate
wish for our people caught up in their
unskillful
uh terrible ways of behavior to uh uh
somehow find a way to come out of it. Um
that puts us in the greatest danger of
all um even more so than uh being uh
potentially arrested, potentially locked
up, potentially
um harmed
in that kind of
u way which is very real and very
psychologically traumatizing. But that's
nothing compared to the danger we can do
by ourselves, do to ourselves if we fall
into hatred. M
>> um so that's that's
that's the work uh
uh the Buddha did uh recommend uh
protecting the truth and and so I I do
think it's okay uh for a Buddhist to uh
speak truth to power but they they will
uh need to uh really know how to protect
their own heart and protect their own
virtue while they're while they're doing
No,
>> thank you.
I uh uh just before we started the the
call uh you were talking about how you
as the new abbott of empty cloud
monastery um after Bontes Sudas and
Aasoma have gone to Italy empty cloud in
Italy uh that the way that you're
governing is called dynamic governance
or sociocracy. And although Zatron Nisbo
is totally right that um yeah we are
monks monastics living in monasteries
but really that is still just you know
one model of humans living with humans.
Could you describe what uh dynamic
governance is and what lessons might be
able to one might be able to take from
that to living with one's spouse or
living with a family or living in a
small uh community.
This is a particular format of u
consensus decision making
uh that was developed by a Quaker.
Uh and
the um
idea
ideas that are very helpful in the
monastic form is to escape from
hierarchical dangers uh within Buddhist
monastic culture. Um
part of the idea is that decisions
um are made at the lowest possible level
of the people who are affected by the
work. So u the person who's uh
responsible for um
u taking care of the yard
uh
that those people are need to be the
leaders in um developing the solutions
for taking care of the yard
>> and uh those who are involved in um
giving ordination and training monactics
need to be the leaders in those
decisions. But for any decision at any
level, the way the consensus works is by
means of objections.
So there's a careful conversation to
understand the problem when there's a
problem and to get an agreement among
everybody affected by it that they agree
that this is the problem. Step [snorts]
one then having agree that this is the
problem there's a creative process for
possible solutions emerge the solutions
belong to the group they don't belong to
some individual who's advocating one
solution or another.
uh if anybody has a rational concern
or a rational objection to a proposed
uh decision
uh then
the decisions cannot is is defeated.
So they have to uh find a workaround to
accommodate that concern.
when all the concerns have been
accommodated and nobody has any more
concerns left than than its invitation
and there's a kind of a an aspect to it
of having
uh different circles at different levels
that are interlocking.
So,
one of the monastics is a member of the
volunteers committee, the friends
committee.
And because of that consensus process,
that person is carrying the concerns of
the monastics and they're able to veto
anything that the friends committee
wants to do.
uh for any decision. This was not
implemented formally, but for any
decision that affects the friends of the
monastery as well as affecting the
monastics,
uh
uh we hope in the future to have a
representative from the friends
committee and if they object to
something the monastics want to do, then
it stops until we can accommodate that.
So, Yeah, this has uh
really um dramatically
um solved a situation where
people our volunteers and friends felt
they had responsibility without
authority because of their deep respect
for the monastics
>> and but the monastics
didn't really want to
step up and you know take charge and be
bosses.
>> [clears throat]
>> So being consultants in this way in that
consensus decision process uh seems to
to have unleashed a lot of creativity
and engagement on the part of our
committee and it's also eased my mind
with my anxieties about being an abbot
uh that any decision that comes up that
I um check in with whoever is a resident
at that time and I don't go ahead unless
everybody's comfortable.
Thank you. Um this is actually very
useful for us and
um you know I think de facto we we have
been you know we work more or less on a
consensus model ourself um uh in terms
of our lay community as well um our
board um and there's been quite a few
moments where you know we're bringing a
very refined ethos as monastics which
the world often doesn't understand at
first and I'm curious about those
moments with with that more egalitarian
and um
you know decision-m structure. How how
do you navigate those moments where
maybe the monastics are bringing a
really important way of doing things
which is counter to how people have
thought before and um you know and it is
a monastery like you all live there and
the the lay people don't um how do you
navigate those those tensions as well?
>> Uh so far
Uh I'm not experiencing
uh tension in in those areas. M
>> um I think because the people who are
volunteering for us have such profound
respect and for the past such a profound
tendency to defer and to go along with
any [clears throat]
word of advice that the monastics give
that's like immediately followed like
it's almost like like too fast
>> to follow the advice or suggestions that
the monastery give without bringing to
bear their own practical wisdom. M
>> so I feel that we need to do like a
little bit more to en encourage and um
and give permission uh to the the
supporters uh to feel that they can
express
um from their own point of view and to
know that they'll be heard and
appreciated.
Well, I we're almost at the hour. U but
I'm curious. Um so a good number of
Clear Mountaineers, people who watch
regularly have already been to Empty
Cloud. Um but how would you suggest that
people who haven't yet been? How can
people tap into Empty Cloud? Can people
come visit? Um when when are your
YouTube showings?
>> Yeah, we just love to know how people
can tap in.
Well, we have regular programs every
weekend for day visitors. Uh we have a
welcome for
uh a small number of people at a time,
LA people uh to take personal retreats
at the empty club monastery. They can
apply to do that. And um
I'm uh uh very much
uh hoping to uh continue providing uh
hospitality for those um that in-person
opportunity especially for people who
are m um maturing the dharma and able to
practice independently. Uh so that just
simply experiencing the uh peaceful and
spacious uh uh quality of this place is
is uh just about uh what they need to be
able to go deeper with their own
practice.
uh we we do give those uh those regular
teachings in person as well as the every
weekend as well as the online teaching
>> and we'll uh list the link to Dcloud's
website in the description as well. Um
>> and by the way we have overcame the mold
and mildew problem u and made our
monastery to be waterproof
so that rain rain can come down and it
doesn't come inside.
>> Wow. So um that means that uh we are
ready in a certain way to spread our
wings and to become even more welcoming
to visitors.
>> Wow, that must be lar some of Siha's
sphere circle. Way to go.
>> I um before we go over to Zoom, um I
just like it's my kind of uh I don't
know, it's my faith side. Um, do you
have a final story of serendipity or
dava or uh something kind of unexplained
but faith inspiring that you might be
able to share from your from your path
or from the monasteries you've been a
part of creating? I find those stories
of the unexpected and uh kind of
serendipitous really fun to end on.
Well, I think my uh arrival here at the
entry club monastery was a serendipity.
>> It seems that uh I may be a slow
learner. uh but that uh uh this uh space
and this situation is uh really what I
need and I've benefited so much from the
culture that Sudas and Ayasoma had
created over the years which is so uh
clear-minded about the proper priority
of a monastic
and the the proper livelihood of a
monastic the proper way to spend our
lives uh I did not know that they were
looking for a senior bikuni
uh when I uh made the request to come
and and change my base over to there, it
was only
in the process of making the decision
that I I found out that there were
inhabit.
>> Well,
well, it was great. I arrived there
serendipitously the first week that you
became the the abbott there and hope to
have many more visits and we'll love to
get you out here to Seattle as soon as
we can. So,
>> fall of 2027,
we would like to make a tour of the
Northwest.
>> Wow, that was
>> fantastic.
>> Oddly specific. That's wonderful. So,
[laughter]
we would love that, ya. Truly. Um we're
we're going to go over to Zoom and I has
agreed even though it's 10 p.m. there to
stick around with us and so we've pasted
the link into the chat. Um and yeah like
Ajin Kov said I we're just delighted
with what you're cultivating there for
all that Monte Sudas and I have helped
create as well and we are glad to have a
a sister um and friend over on the east
coast. We hope to maintain this
relationship for a long time.
F.
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