246 - Fire Fundamentals pt. 20 - Fire Resistance Criteria with Piotr Turkowski

Transcript

Why Fire Resistance Still Confuses A Working Definition Of Fire Resistance R Criteria And Deformation Limits How Test Loads Get Chosen Integrity E Flames Cracks Cotton Insulation I Temperatures And Thermocouples Radiation W And What It Adds Mechanical Impact M Wrecking Ball Test Why Ratings Do Not Add Up The Clock Rules And Uncertainty Key Takeaways And What Comes Next

WEBVTT 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:06.290 <v Wojciech>Hello everybody. 00:00:06.290 --> 00:00:07.549 <v Wojciech>Welcome to the Fire Science Show. 00:00:07.549 --> 00:00:11.448 <v Wojciech>Last week we had a little laugh, uh, with the April Fools. 00:00:11.448 --> 00:00:21.483 <v Wojciech>it appears that when you have a podcast on Wednesdays, it's that easy to target April Fools Day with it, and the next is probably more than 10 years away. 00:00:21.483 --> 00:00:24.347 <v Wojciech>So I had to squeeze something out of it. 00:00:24.347 --> 00:00:30.077 <v Wojciech>This week we're back to good old fire science, and in this episode we will be discussing. 00:00:30.077 --> 00:00:33.627 <v Wojciech>Fire resistance with my good colleague from the office. 00:00:33.627 --> 00:00:34.045 <v Wojciech>Piotr Turkowski. 00:00:34.045 --> 00:00:42.127 <v Wojciech>Fire resistance is something that if you are a fire you will work with it, period. 00:00:42.127 --> 00:00:43.746 <v Wojciech>There is no escape. 00:00:43.746 --> 00:00:47.133 <v Wojciech>There is no chance you will not be exposed to it. 00:00:47.133 --> 00:00:49.773 <v Wojciech>Uh, at some point of doing your design. 00:00:49.773 --> 00:00:55.097 <v Wojciech>Probably doing it literally all the time because work. 00:00:55.097 --> 00:01:04.697 <v Wojciech>This is something that is just, uh, being used to assess the structural fire engineering, or this is something as a proxy of structural fire engineering. 00:01:04.697 --> 00:01:07.308 <v Wojciech>Perhaps that's the better way to, to put it. 00:01:07.308 --> 00:01:08.171 <v Wojciech>And, um. 00:01:08.171 --> 00:01:15.596 <v Wojciech>For fire resistance, there are multiple components that you have to take into account to understand what it fully means. 00:01:15.596 --> 00:01:19.197 <v Wojciech>One would be the element and how the element is designed. 00:01:19.197 --> 00:01:25.706 <v Wojciech>What materials are being used, what are the properties of the material, different elements, different uh, kinds of. 00:01:25.706 --> 00:01:30.453 <v Wojciech>Specimens will go through a slightly different variations of the fire resistance test. 00:01:30.453 --> 00:01:31.805 <v Wojciech>We're not talking about that today. 00:01:31.805 --> 00:01:34.287 <v Wojciech>The second aspect is thermal exposure. 00:01:34.287 --> 00:01:36.628 <v Wojciech>What type of curve you are using. 00:01:36.628 --> 00:01:39.837 <v Wojciech>We're also not talking about that today that much. 00:01:39.837 --> 00:01:41.474 <v Wojciech>The third one would be the furnace. 00:01:41.474 --> 00:01:44.055 <v Wojciech>What kind of furnace are you using? 00:01:44.055 --> 00:01:49.518 <v Wojciech>And and there are actually nuanced differences between furnaces in the world. 00:01:49.518 --> 00:02:00.768 <v Wojciech>However, a lot of effort was put into mitigating those, so, the far resistance on different furnaces in different is somewhat comparable. 00:02:00.768 --> 00:02:03.283 <v Wojciech>And we're also talking about that today. 00:02:03.283 --> 00:02:19.393 <v Wojciech>The thing that we're talking about today are the criteria the assessment, the criteria of the fire resistance So what actually is being assessed when a specimen is given a rating when your specimen gets REI 60? 00:02:19.393 --> 00:02:22.883 <v Wojciech>What does that exactly mean? 00:02:22.883 --> 00:02:27.771 <v Wojciech>And you could imagine, you could say, uh, yeah, R is load is integrity. 00:02:27.771 --> 00:02:28.973 <v Wojciech>I is installation. 00:02:28.973 --> 00:02:29.842 <v Wojciech>That's it. 00:02:29.842 --> 00:02:35.673 <v Wojciech>But as everything in the world of fire science or fire when you go deep. 00:02:35.673 --> 00:02:43.736 <v Wojciech>It gets complicated and messy and you find a hundred years stuff that probably should not be there today. 00:02:43.736 --> 00:03:00.358 <v Wojciech>And yeah, it's, it, it, it's fun and, uh, such as the world fire resistance, uh, criteria, which we are delving into So yeah, please join me in OT in this Fire Fundamentals Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode. 00:03:00.358 --> 00:03:28.323 <v Wojciech>The Fire Science Show podcast is brought to you in with OFR Consultants. 00:03:28.323 --> 00:03:38.174 <v Wojciech>OFR is the UK's leading independent multi-award winning fire engineering consultancy with a reputation for delivering safety driven solutions. 00:03:38.174 --> 00:03:47.353 <v Wojciech>we've been on this journey together for three years so far, and here it begins the fourth year of collaboration between the Science Show and the OFR. 00:03:47.353 --> 00:04:04.929 <v Wojciech>So far, we've brought you more than 150 episodes, Which into nearly 150 hours of educational content available, free, accessible, all over the planet without any paywalls or hidden agendas. 00:04:04.929 --> 00:04:11.739 <v Wojciech>This makes me very proud and I am super thankful to OFR for long lasting partnership. 00:04:11.739 --> 00:04:35.357 <v Wojciech>I'm extremely happy that we've just started the year four, I hope there will be many years after that to come So big OFR for your support to the Fire Science show and the to the fire safety community at large that we can And for you, the listener, if you would like to learn more or perhaps even become a part of OR, they always have awaiting. 00:04:35.357 --> 00:04:39.826 <v Wojciech>Check their website@orconsultants.com And now to the episode. 00:04:40.737 --> 00:04:40.978 <v Wojciech>Hello everybody. 00:04:40.978 --> 00:04:44.968 <v Wojciech>I am joined today by my very good colleague, Piotr 00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:45.730 <v Piotr Turkowski>Hi. 00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:46.870 <v Piotr Turkowski>Hello, everyone. 00:04:47.317 --> 00:04:48.403 <v Wojciech>good to have you back in the show. 00:04:48.403 --> 00:04:54.072 <v Wojciech>The man Born in the furnace and furnaces is what we will about today. 00:04:54.072 --> 00:04:54.612 <v Wojciech>Are you ready? 00:04:55.170 --> 00:04:55.170 <v Piotr Turkowski>Ready? 00:04:55.966 --> 00:05:02.663 <v Wojciech>so, pi uh, fire resistance, as a paradigm, of the, of the fire safety. 00:05:02.663 --> 00:05:08.050 <v Wojciech>I, I, have a strong feeling that it's something that we with the furnaces in the lab. 00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:09.889 <v Wojciech>We perhaps have, a little different. 00:05:09.889 --> 00:05:16.149 <v Wojciech>View on what it is and how it works than the rest of the fire protection engineering, community. 00:05:16.149 --> 00:05:21.512 <v Wojciech>And the further you go from the lab, the more differently understand it. 00:05:21.512 --> 00:05:29.223 <v Wojciech>Let's start with what's your opinion on the topic, and then will go into how to understand it as the court says. 00:05:29.887 --> 00:05:34.610 <v Piotr Turkowski>so after 15 years and after the last interview, came 00:05:37.531 --> 00:05:37.531 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:05:37.997 --> 00:05:38.117 <v Piotr Turkowski>the topic. 00:05:38.117 --> 00:05:53.278 <v Piotr Turkowski>many as, uh, we are developing our course on fire I digged through it, and found out there's an actual, definition given in ISO standard, the 13, 943 standard. 00:05:54.139 --> 00:05:54.139 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:05:55.194 --> 00:06:11.942 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, I really like the definition because even though very simple and at, at the first glance, it get, it some terms that you might find, assessment method or methods being excluded from, but they are not. 00:06:11.942 --> 00:06:19.365 <v Piotr Turkowski>The definition is in a simple term, it's just an of an item subjected to assessment. 00:06:19.365 --> 00:06:27.766 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's not necessarily a test specimen in a It's just the item that you are assessing to extend or to give protection from it. 00:06:27.766 --> 00:06:30.170 <v Piotr Turkowski>For certain period of time. 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:31.341 <v Piotr Turkowski>And that's it. 00:06:31.341 --> 00:06:42.951 <v Piotr Turkowski>That that's, and, and probably we all understand it way, just that over the past 100 years, we've built some tools and some criteria around it. 00:06:42.951 --> 00:06:51.889 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, sometimes we only needed to one try on this and they are now stuck with us for over 50 years or 00:06:52.713 --> 00:06:52.713 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:06:53.156 --> 00:06:55.737 <v Piotr Turkowski>but it's more or less the same as we all understand 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:05.449 <v Wojciech>Just the ability to withstand Well, that's actually helpful though when you go deeper into, uh, assessments. 00:07:05.449 --> 00:07:16.459 <v Wojciech>I know we, we sometimes have, different opinions of what uh, fire resistance, especially as, as you venture into complicated materials like compostible materials. 00:07:16.459 --> 00:07:18.439 <v Wojciech>But that's a subject for another talk today. 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:22.999 <v Wojciech>Let's, let's discuss of, of on fire resistance, on, on, on it is. 00:07:22.999 --> 00:07:27.581 <v Wojciech>So, uh, perhaps a good place to start would be the criteria fire resistance. 00:07:27.581 --> 00:07:39.281 <v Wojciech>So the, so the magical letters that appear in front of you know, significant specimen that RE eyes, uh, et Maybe let's try to clarify those. 00:07:40.875 --> 00:07:40.875 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah. 00:07:40.875 --> 00:07:55.533 <v Piotr Turkowski>So a very helpful note to that definition says that, have some criteria, as you said, uh, it, it also, uh, the note also says that it's all being used in a fire test. 00:07:56.346 --> 00:07:56.346 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:07:57.333 --> 00:07:57.723 <v Piotr Turkowski>fire test. 00:07:57.723 --> 00:08:08.798 <v Piotr Turkowski>And there we have, the three most important criteria, which is the integrity e and the thermal I, we also have uh, more letters nowadays. 00:08:08.798 --> 00:08:17.750 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have the radiation performance with the W, we the mechanical impact with letter M, C, small s. 00:08:17.750 --> 00:08:30.887 <v Piotr Turkowski>And even more to that, we have some, prefixes, or some other inserts, saying about the exposure Maybe this is the, this is the external fire condition. 00:08:30.887 --> 00:08:33.076 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe this is the semi-natural fire. 00:08:33.076 --> 00:08:50.720 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's a constant temperature attack on a, on the then with the classification of more complex, uh, linear joint seals, we get a whole bunch of set of letters describing the orientation of the joint. 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:59.053 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's weight, its possible, uh, movement, and for types of elements we'll find sets of such letters. 00:08:59.053 --> 00:09:04.327 <v Piotr Turkowski>So starting with the load bearing capacity, r the fundamental one. 00:09:04.327 --> 00:09:25.471 <v Piotr Turkowski>this is just the ability of the test specimen in a that would be a slap or a beam or a column extent that is imposed on that element during fire, either in test or in a real fire, to extent that, uh, that load and to resist the collapse. 00:09:26.701 --> 00:09:26.701 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:09:26.971 --> 00:09:28.110 <v Piotr Turkowski>very, very core definition. 00:09:28.110 --> 00:09:42.384 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have some criteria for it on how to assess it for some elements, uh, well, a total co collapse of the element, may not necessarily be the, the point that want to declare the loss of, uh, load bearing capacity. 00:09:42.384 --> 00:09:45.086 <v Piotr Turkowski>For, for some, it is like a raised floor. 00:09:45.086 --> 00:09:49.418 <v Piotr Turkowski>The only criteria is that you have to observe that, element collapsed. 00:09:49.994 --> 00:09:51.464 <v Wojciech>so collapse is, collapse is obvious. 00:09:52.163 --> 00:09:53.033 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes, collapses collapse. 00:09:53.033 --> 00:09:54.144 <v Piotr Turkowski>That, that is obvious. 00:09:54.144 --> 00:09:59.793 <v Piotr Turkowski>but for other elements, this is mainly being with the, the deformation of the element. 00:10:00.557 --> 00:10:00.557 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:10:01.144 --> 00:10:05.195 <v Piotr Turkowski>for horizontal elements, that will be the the rate of the deflection. 00:10:05.195 --> 00:10:14.398 <v Piotr Turkowski>for vertical elements, that will be the So a column cannot contract more than 100 of its, height. 00:10:14.398 --> 00:10:20.129 <v Piotr Turkowski>and funny thing, these criteria almost 100 years old. 00:10:20.129 --> 00:10:31.067 <v Piotr Turkowski>I mean, that they've evolved a little over time, very core, experiments and, and calculations on how to develop these values. 00:10:31.067 --> 00:10:34.427 <v Piotr Turkowski>They are, they're coming from 1918, I believe. 00:10:34.427 --> 00:10:35.003 <v Piotr Turkowski>so. 00:10:35.003 --> 00:10:46.187 <v Piotr Turkowski>It is quite a long time ago when somebody, was thinking on how to assess it, and they did it for steel and concrete, uh, later developed in 1950s. 00:10:46.187 --> 00:10:52.230 <v Piotr Turkowski>And that deformation criteria doesn't care that is being assessed. 00:10:52.230 --> 00:11:03.897 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's universal throughout all types of elements, of the material it's made from, whether it's steel, timber, it's, uh, glazing or whatever. 00:11:03.897 --> 00:11:05.547 <v Piotr Turkowski>It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't matter. 00:11:05.547 --> 00:11:12.759 <v Piotr Turkowski>We all know that all of these material materials will behave differently, that all of them can withstand level of deflection. 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:14.368 <v Piotr Turkowski>It doesn't matter. 00:11:14.368 --> 00:11:16.918 <v Piotr Turkowski>The only thing that matters is the deformation. 00:11:16.918 --> 00:11:21.440 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the deformation is being calculated only based on two factors, one. 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:30.075 <v Piotr Turkowski>Is the size of the element being the, the length, the span length, OO of a beam or a floor or, or the height of a column or a wall. 00:11:30.075 --> 00:11:31.047 <v Piotr Turkowski>That's it. 00:11:31.047 --> 00:11:53.407 <v Piotr Turkowski>and the other one being the distance from the extreme fiber of the cold design compression zone of that to the extreme fiber of the called design tension So very often in, uh, simple terms, that is the height of the element for a steel beam that will be the height of it for a timber element. 00:11:53.407 --> 00:12:01.269 <v Piotr Turkowski>That would be also the height for a concrete element, not necessarily the concrete intention is not exactly the best material. 00:12:01.269 --> 00:12:21.316 <v Piotr Turkowski>So a designer, that is designing a concrete beam will not actually take into account, the tension of it'll use the concrete strength in the compression So, uh, very often for a simple span, load bearing, that is the area above the, the, the upper part of beam. 00:12:21.316 --> 00:12:41.855 <v Piotr Turkowski>And in the lower part, he will only, or she will only use the reinforcement to calculate the for a concrete beam, that wouldn't be the entire That would be something that is called the D but half a diameter of the reinforcement, or, know, it, uh, very, very detailed. 00:12:45.235 --> 00:12:48.802 <v Wojciech>I was wondering if we need a Fire Fundamentals episode on, of fire resistance. 00:12:48.802 --> 00:12:53.032 <v Wojciech>I, I wondered if we will talk about REI for like an hour. 00:12:53.032 --> 00:12:54.322 <v Wojciech>Is it even possible? 00:12:54.322 --> 00:13:07.880 <v Wojciech>And now I see we absolutely need a fire fundamental on those criteria because even the simplest things, uh, get, uh, a little bit obscured and, and messy if you improve them for a hundred years. 00:13:09.125 --> 00:13:11.749 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the value of the deflection, it changed over 00:13:12.413 --> 00:13:12.413 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:13:13.067 --> 00:13:22.339 <v Piotr Turkowski>it was being proposed to be, I will call the, the that we use today an X because it, it doesn't really what it is, but let's imagine that it's an x. 00:13:22.339 --> 00:13:28.490 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's, it's a quite large deflection a reinforced slab of 12 centimeters in thickness. 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:31.533 <v Piotr Turkowski>a span of around 4.5 meters. 00:13:31.533 --> 00:13:38.254 <v Piotr Turkowski>The deflection is approximately something like 40 to centimeters, not millimeters, 50 centimeters. 00:13:39.368 --> 00:13:40.748 <v Wojciech>On, on a four and a half meter beam. 00:13:41.344 --> 00:13:41.344 <v Piotr Turkowski>Exactly. 00:13:42.216 --> 00:13:42.576 <v Wojciech>Oh, okay. 00:13:43.144 --> 00:13:43.474 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's a lot. 00:13:43.474 --> 00:13:44.315 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's a lot. 00:13:44.315 --> 00:13:45.725 <v Piotr Turkowski>So let, let's call that value x. 00:13:46.389 --> 00:13:46.389 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:13:46.894 --> 00:13:52.677 <v Piotr Turkowski>value has been changed, something like six years uh, when it was increased by 50%. 00:13:52.677 --> 00:14:02.159 <v Piotr Turkowski>If you ask anybody about the foundations on why it was increased by 50%, I believe no one will be able to tell you why is it? 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:11.639 <v Piotr Turkowski>So, I remember at San a meeting, there was even a from ISO that wanted to adjust its standard to, to standard and asked why was it this way? 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:20.278 <v Piotr Turkowski>I think that the answer was basically like, uh, well, it's a con, it's a conclusion of our discussion that we needed to increase the value of 50%. 00:14:20.278 --> 00:14:27.142 <v Piotr Turkowski>So if we have the X that we have now, six years ago it was a bit less, 33. 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:28.250 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah. 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:33.403 <v Piotr Turkowski>then in 1959 it was half that value. 00:14:35.696 --> 00:14:35.936 <v Wojciech>one, six. 00:14:36.292 --> 00:14:44.144 <v Piotr Turkowski>see that, uh, in terms of our tolerance of that on when do we declare the the, the collapse of the 00:14:45.144 --> 00:14:45.144 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:14:45.436 --> 00:14:48.225 <v Piotr Turkowski>we are moving towards higher and higher values. 00:14:48.225 --> 00:14:51.740 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's a good thing, I can tell you, I can only tell you that. 00:14:51.740 --> 00:14:57.274 <v Piotr Turkowski>now, nowadays, many elements, collapse into the furnace before they reach such gigantic deflection. 00:14:57.274 --> 00:14:59.345 <v Piotr Turkowski>that is our load bearing capacity. 00:14:59.345 --> 00:15:09.274 <v Piotr Turkowski>Currently, the deflection only the temperature which are very often associated with the fire'cause we say the critical temperature of steel is 500 C degrees. 00:15:09.274 --> 00:15:09.634 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:15:09.634 --> 00:15:12.562 <v Piotr Turkowski>One could say sub sentence this doesn't really matter. 00:15:12.562 --> 00:15:16.672 <v Piotr Turkowski>In a test, we can record even higher temperatures and we don't care. 00:15:16.672 --> 00:15:20.129 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's an information, it's a foot for fault. 00:15:20.129 --> 00:15:20.940 <v Piotr Turkowski>Let's say. 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:27.373 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe we can do some extra assessment later on, but doesn't really matter what temperature we'll record an element. 00:15:27.373 --> 00:15:29.591 <v Piotr Turkowski>It only matters what deflection we record. 00:15:30.139 --> 00:15:35.427 <v Wojciech>But, for some specific tests like tunnels, we do measure right at the rebar and or not really. 00:15:36.071 --> 00:15:36.250 <v Piotr Turkowski>We do. 00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:41.101 <v Piotr Turkowski>And that is the tricky part because the tunnel test 00:15:43.792 --> 00:15:43.792 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:15:43.792 --> 00:15:44.086 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:15:44.527 --> 00:15:44.527 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:15:44.942 --> 00:15:45.753 <v Piotr Turkowski>the elements of it. 00:15:45.753 --> 00:15:46.831 <v Piotr Turkowski>We can record the temperature. 00:15:46.831 --> 00:15:51.033 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have, we use similar equipment, but it's more spalling test. 00:15:51.033 --> 00:15:55.955 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause we care about whether the sping occurs or insulation test. 00:15:55.955 --> 00:16:00.076 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's not necessarily an entire where we have 00:16:01.942 --> 00:16:01.942 <v Wojciech>hmm. 00:16:02.418 --> 00:16:05.538 <v Piotr Turkowski>as it is in practice and we declare it's When it collapsed. 00:16:05.538 --> 00:16:08.090 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have more severe criteria there. 00:16:10.346 --> 00:16:10.916 <v Piotr Turkowski>sistance test. 00:16:11.250 --> 00:16:11.639 <v Wojciech>Cool, cool, cool. 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:12.451 <v Wojciech>and, uh, okay. 00:16:12.451 --> 00:16:13.831 <v Wojciech>It's load bearing capacity. 00:16:13.831 --> 00:16:21.349 <v Wojciech>so the load part of that, what it bears, how, how does the look in, in the test and, and, and how it is defined. 00:16:22.245 --> 00:16:29.288 <v Piotr Turkowski>That is a very good question and that is actually quite a debate that one could have when start to, to have a test. 00:16:29.288 --> 00:16:32.585 <v Piotr Turkowski>The load, uh, very often is a vertical load. 00:16:32.585 --> 00:16:41.945 <v Piotr Turkowski>So on a wall will have, will have only compression of, for the wall and for horizontal elements, we will likely get only bending or sheer forces. 00:16:42.864 --> 00:16:42.864 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:16:43.144 --> 00:16:53.024 <v Piotr Turkowski>no normal forces, no, no compression for horizontal Although new test methods like the one for tunnels, they do foresee that that could happen. 00:16:53.024 --> 00:16:59.274 <v Piotr Turkowski>Or maybe there is a new test method for members' when we would have tension, in a horizontal element. 00:16:59.274 --> 00:17:08.228 <v Piotr Turkowski>But this is, let's say something new and the, the value of the load, that is something that is quite a because. 00:17:08.228 --> 00:17:15.104 <v Piotr Turkowski>There are at least three approaches that I could say valid, but they're very different in the outcome. 00:17:15.104 --> 00:17:21.345 <v Piotr Turkowski>One could say that a designer designing a building, use so-called design values. 00:17:21.345 --> 00:17:26.894 <v Piotr Turkowski>So he will take into account that the material is exactly perfect. 00:17:26.894 --> 00:17:34.515 <v Piotr Turkowski>So he will take a nominal value of the steel strength, for example, and not the actual yield strength of it. 00:17:34.515 --> 00:17:39.384 <v Piotr Turkowski>And he will not know exactly what loads will be in building. 00:17:39.384 --> 00:17:44.903 <v Piotr Turkowski>So he will take some value and multiply it by a factor of maybe one, 1.5. 00:17:46.001 --> 00:17:46.001 <v Wojciech>hmm. 00:17:46.252 --> 00:17:52.886 <v Piotr Turkowski>will increase that load he will, in the end, he will the design load bearing capacity of that element. 00:17:52.886 --> 00:18:00.511 <v Piotr Turkowski>So using the lower value of the material properties the design loads in the building, that will be higher values. 00:18:01.113 --> 00:18:01.535 <v Wojciech>Double conservatism. 00:18:01.535 --> 00:18:02.250 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:18:02.746 --> 00:18:02.746 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:18:02.746 --> 00:18:03.404 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah. 00:18:03.404 --> 00:18:05.891 <v Piotr Turkowski>And in the end, this is all Euro code zero. 00:18:05.891 --> 00:18:07.721 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's a very nice standard. 00:18:07.721 --> 00:18:18.012 <v Piotr Turkowski>It has the, the entire background, explained there, And, uh, that method, is actually the best one we right now in a fire test. 00:18:18.012 --> 00:18:24.104 <v Piotr Turkowski>However, when we do the test, we kind of know exactly what the load is. 00:18:24.104 --> 00:18:27.252 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause we imply exactly the value that we want. 00:18:27.252 --> 00:18:31.354 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's not that suddenly our hydraulic jack will put 00:18:32.481 --> 00:18:33.096 <v Wojciech>So, so, so sorry. 00:18:33.096 --> 00:18:35.376 <v Wojciech>How do you, how do you apply that load? 00:18:35.798 --> 00:18:38.103 <v Piotr Turkowski>We do that with, mostly hydraulic jacks. 00:18:38.103 --> 00:18:46.653 <v Piotr Turkowski>so, uh, it's a hydraulic jack acting on a steel something else that will, put that load, transfer that 00:18:47.567 --> 00:18:47.567 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:18:47.823 --> 00:18:47.823 <v Piotr Turkowski>specimen. 00:18:47.823 --> 00:18:50.209 <v Piotr Turkowski>That, that is one way and second option. 00:18:50.209 --> 00:19:02.029 <v Piotr Turkowski>Also very common one, especially for roofs when the, the load is not so high, we used, weights, uh, could be concrete blocks, that could be cast iron blocks or 00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:03.430 <v Wojciech>So like a dead load? 00:19:04.241 --> 00:19:04.241 <v Piotr Turkowski>exactly. 00:19:05.192 --> 00:19:05.192 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:19:05.192 --> 00:19:05.432 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:19:05.432 --> 00:19:05.642 <v Wojciech>Cool. 00:19:06.281 --> 00:19:10.813 <v Piotr Turkowski>and this allows us to spread the load more evenly o the entire surface. 00:19:10.813 --> 00:19:14.201 <v Piotr Turkowski>Something that is, uh, sometimes required by the 00:19:15.602 --> 00:19:15.602 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:19:16.903 --> 00:19:18.761 <v Piotr Turkowski>applied and not just a point load. 00:19:19.471 --> 00:19:19.471 <v Wojciech>hmm. 00:19:19.471 --> 00:19:19.862 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:19:19.862 --> 00:19:24.362 <v Wojciech>You are, you were talking about the, the what's happening with load further in the test. 00:19:24.362 --> 00:19:24.602 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:19:25.303 --> 00:19:30.553 <v Piotr Turkowski>So in a test, we know exactly how much we'll, uh, and we also can measure material properties. 00:19:30.553 --> 00:19:33.853 <v Piotr Turkowski>We know exactly what yield strength that steel has. 00:19:33.853 --> 00:19:42.166 <v Piotr Turkowski>so an argument is made even in the standard itself maybe you shouldn't use the design values because they will not be conservative. 00:19:42.166 --> 00:19:48.765 <v Piotr Turkowski>They do, it'll not be the most onerous scenario for it, that maybe you should use the actual material in a test. 00:19:48.765 --> 00:20:08.607 <v Piotr Turkowski>And to go even further, maybe you should build two specimen and simply with one, do a load bearing capacity test without heating and to to see exactly how it can carry, and then apply a portion of the load you expect to occur in fire. 00:20:08.607 --> 00:20:11.222 <v Piotr Turkowski>During a fire resistance test. 00:20:11.222 --> 00:20:13.577 <v Piotr Turkowski>so there are many approaches to it. 00:20:13.577 --> 00:20:14.593 <v Piotr Turkowski>They are not standardized. 00:20:14.593 --> 00:20:27.743 <v Piotr Turkowski>And unfortunately in many test reports or in many papers, you will not find exactly how the load was calculated, makes, uh, replicability of some very difficult. 00:20:27.743 --> 00:20:30.833 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause the load influences everything. 00:20:30.833 --> 00:20:50.048 <v Piotr Turkowski>It, it'll dramatically change the outcome of since tests, especially for masonry, for steel for concrete, maybe not so much, but still, but many are very sensible to, to load, especially at a very load ratio because. 00:20:50.048 --> 00:21:05.833 <v Piotr Turkowski>may start appearing the initial deformation will be causing the element to behave differently, in a virus test to the one if the load was lower or if, or, or, or if the element was unloaded completely. 00:21:06.834 --> 00:21:10.010 <v Wojciech>This is very interesting because of course, uh, you will buy fire protection. 00:21:10.010 --> 00:21:12.800 <v Wojciech>It'll have a value of R 60 or 120. 00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:25.265 <v Wojciech>You, you'll, uh, have a, a wall of specific rating, but to have understanding of how that load was applied or what critical were there in the test. 00:21:25.265 --> 00:21:28.835 <v Wojciech>Can the, can the fire safety engineer even get that somehow? 00:21:28.835 --> 00:21:35.261 <v Wojciech>Or, or it's like irrelevant if you're doing like fire material on top of steel, let's say. 00:21:35.865 --> 00:21:48.223 <v Piotr Turkowski>For, for fire protection systems, for steel we are in a very lucky positions because these it's an en N 13 381 standards. 00:21:48.223 --> 00:21:55.528 <v Piotr Turkowski>The way they were developed, they give an exact on how to calculate load and how much to, to apply it. 00:21:55.528 --> 00:22:12.166 <v Piotr Turkowski>And for some standards like steel protection, it said that if you apply the load, when you apply the during fire test and that load is insufficient to the collapse of a, in a predicted of temperatures of element. 00:22:13.076 --> 00:22:13.076 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:22:13.382 --> 00:22:27.632 <v Piotr Turkowski>Then you shall increase that load and make it because we want, we want to see during that test, high deflection of that steel element, we want to see how fire protection system will respond to that high 00:22:28.691 --> 00:22:28.691 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:22:30.780 --> 00:22:30.780 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:22:31.501 --> 00:22:39.717 <v Piotr Turkowski>in this test, but for others tests like test for roofs or for walls without any fire protection systems, but just the elements themselves. 00:22:39.717 --> 00:22:49.000 <v Piotr Turkowski>This is the gray area on how exactly the load being, and what value of it is being applied. 00:22:49.519 --> 00:23:04.050 <v Wojciech>How, how translatable is that load to the real world Because it's not just, you know, the, the, the force is one but also how the item is fixed, how it forms a part of the at large. 00:23:04.050 --> 00:23:09.192 <v Wojciech>This is also critical for the load paths, load-bearing to, appear. 00:23:09.192 --> 00:23:12.413 <v Wojciech>So how translatable is this to real world situation? 00:23:13.073 --> 00:23:24.421 <v Piotr Turkowski>For fire protection systems, the way, uh, the load is calculated, it's supposed to cover the most honorable scenarios where the load utilization level is even at a hundred percent. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:24.960 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:23:25.471 --> 00:23:30.260 <v Piotr Turkowski>it is very often 60 to 70% of the load, that can happen, in normal situations. 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:31.760 <v Piotr Turkowski>So in fire, this is. 00:23:37.968 --> 00:23:37.968 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:23:38.423 --> 00:23:41.939 <v Piotr Turkowski>a, a glimpse into the future on maybe if we'll talk Eurocodes as well. 00:23:41.939 --> 00:23:47.230 <v Piotr Turkowski>uh, for other elements, it is not required to entire load, especially for roofs. 00:23:47.230 --> 00:24:04.481 <v Piotr Turkowski>This doesn't really make, uh, makes much sense 'cause you can imagine easily a scenario where, we have a like last year, so there's actually snow, Maybe the normal operation, the, the roof we have above our uh, must withstand that entire snow load. 00:24:04.481 --> 00:24:08.353 <v Piotr Turkowski>But during fire, it'll not necessarily be that much. 00:24:08.353 --> 00:24:18.489 <v Piotr Turkowski>So again, using Euro codes, we can see that the snow in a fire situation is usually being, decreased to only 20% of its value. 00:24:18.489 --> 00:24:28.627 <v Piotr Turkowski>So in fire, roofs are almost never loaded to their load bearing capacity because it doesn't make It's more or more like 20 to 40%. 00:24:28.627 --> 00:24:32.583 <v Piotr Turkowski>it's enough because when you then calculate all the 00:24:34.767 --> 00:24:34.767 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:24:35.018 --> 00:24:43.144 <v Piotr Turkowski>the dead weight of it, and you also, Take into account that you use design values, that load will get reduced. 00:24:43.144 --> 00:24:51.786 <v Piotr Turkowski>So in a fire scenario, it'll be simply less and only that no need to overkill it with even more load. 00:24:52.357 --> 00:24:52.357 <v Wojciech>Fantastic. 00:24:52.357 --> 00:25:00.173 <v Wojciech>And anything more to add for the basics of load bearing next? 00:25:00.173 --> 00:25:00.624 <v Wojciech>E. 00:25:01.233 --> 00:25:04.535 <v Piotr Turkowski>at this point I, I, I think we should move to the E. 00:25:04.929 --> 00:25:04.929 <v Wojciech>Yep. 00:25:04.929 --> 00:25:05.739 <v Wojciech>Let's keep integrity. 00:25:05.739 --> 00:25:08.381 <v Wojciech>What's, tell me, tell me all about integrity. 00:25:08.381 --> 00:25:11.192 <v Wojciech>what does it represent and, and how do you measure it? 00:25:11.748 --> 00:25:18.203 <v Piotr Turkowski>The integrity E is one of the three parameters, uh, we use to describe. 00:25:18.203 --> 00:25:34.217 <v Piotr Turkowski>Elements that has a separating function in case of fire separating, meaning you can use it to enclose a fire in a compartment and not have it spread all over the this is one of, uh, of the tree. 00:25:34.217 --> 00:25:38.567 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause we have the integrity E, the I and the 00:25:40.016 --> 00:25:40.016 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:25:41.655 --> 00:25:41.865 <v Piotr Turkowski>is the. 00:25:41.865 --> 00:25:58.769 <v Piotr Turkowski>Most important one of them, I'd say, this is the one kept, when, when we say that the element has integrity, E we're saying that is blocking the spread of fire direct, flaming through that element. 00:25:59.790 --> 00:25:59.790 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:26:00.067 --> 00:26:11.230 <v Piotr Turkowski>are blocking spread of fire by flames coming out of the element or maybe some cracks that can appear in that or some joints of, specified size. 00:26:11.230 --> 00:26:19.108 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have that also quantified or, simply by hot gases could pass through even smaller cracks. 00:26:19.108 --> 00:26:26.278 <v Piotr Turkowski>But that could ignite something that is adjacent to wall or floor on the unexposed, uh, side. 00:26:26.278 --> 00:26:29.351 <v Piotr Turkowski>So this is the integrity that,. 00:26:29.351 --> 00:26:33.713 <v Piotr Turkowski>that criteria Is possible to be, to be assessed only a test. 00:26:33.713 --> 00:26:43.723 <v Piotr Turkowski>There is no, virtual cotton pad or, flame in a numerical analysis that you could do to, to it. 00:26:43.723 --> 00:26:49.365 <v Piotr Turkowski>So, the very reliable way to assess it is almost through a test. 00:26:50.087 --> 00:26:50.449 <v Wojciech>how it's done. 00:26:51.019 --> 00:26:54.412 <v Piotr Turkowski>so we have three, uh, three ways to, to assess it. 00:26:54.412 --> 00:26:56.662 <v Piotr Turkowski>Although one of them is a bit tricky. 00:26:56.662 --> 00:27:00.105 <v Piotr Turkowski>Um, maybe we shouldn't go that deep, but I think 00:27:03.641 --> 00:27:03.819 <v Wojciech>I'm curious. 00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:07.948 <v Wojciech>I'm very, very curious, especially when it comes to, you pitfalls so far. 00:27:07.948 --> 00:27:08.508 <v Wojciech>Safety, engineering. 00:27:08.508 --> 00:27:09.626 <v Wojciech>So yeah, go there. 00:27:10.194 --> 00:27:10.194 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah. 00:27:10.194 --> 00:27:15.019 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the, the first non non-controversial one is a su sustained, flaming. 00:27:15.826 --> 00:27:15.826 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:27:16.219 --> 00:27:22.397 <v Piotr Turkowski>if you can observe with your own eyes, and it's very that you do it with your own eyes because a camera very 00:27:25.688 --> 00:27:25.688 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:27:25.847 --> 00:27:26.147 <v Piotr Turkowski>just disappears. 00:27:26.147 --> 00:27:29.420 <v Piotr Turkowski>It has to be continuous for a period of 10 00:27:30.384 --> 00:27:30.384 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:27:30.769 --> 00:27:31.220 <v Piotr Turkowski>it, if it breaks. 00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:34.308 <v Piotr Turkowski>During that period, you start the countdown again. 00:27:34.308 --> 00:27:45.266 <v Piotr Turkowski>It has to be 10 seconds of continuous flaming on the side, and at the end of the measurement of this 10 you declare, okay, integrity is gone. 00:27:46.118 --> 00:27:46.118 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:27:46.704 --> 00:27:48.718 <v Piotr Turkowski>on the unexposed side, integrity is gone. 00:27:48.718 --> 00:27:50.692 <v Piotr Turkowski>The second one are gaps. 00:27:50.692 --> 00:27:52.343 <v Piotr Turkowski>And there are two types of gaps. 00:27:52.343 --> 00:28:05.798 <v Piotr Turkowski>you have a single opening in the element, simple gap, crack, whatever that goes through the entire Through its entire thickness and it's more than 25 00:28:07.836 --> 00:28:07.836 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:28:08.377 --> 00:28:09.097 <v Piotr Turkowski>you've just lost integrity. 00:28:09.798 --> 00:28:09.798 <v Wojciech>Mm-hmm. 00:28:10.239 --> 00:28:21.546 <v Piotr Turkowski>The other type of gaps are the ones that are only six millimeters in size, but they are length of So in a test, you basically have two rods. 00:28:21.546 --> 00:28:24.651 <v Piotr Turkowski>One is 25 millimeter in a diameter and the six. 00:28:24.651 --> 00:28:36.134 <v Piotr Turkowski>If you can put them through the entire element into the furnace chamber without excessive force, without anything on its way, then the integrity is gone. 00:28:36.452 --> 00:28:36.692 <v Wojciech>No hammer. 00:28:37.528 --> 00:28:37.740 <v Piotr Turkowski>No hammer. 00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:38.308 <v Piotr Turkowski>No hammer. 00:28:38.308 --> 00:28:49.423 <v Piotr Turkowski>And uh, for for many elements, you will find that have some, uh, fixings every, let's say a hundred And if you, uh, if you start putting that rod and it 00:28:51.601 --> 00:28:51.601 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:28:52.392 --> 00:28:54.342 <v Piotr Turkowski>damage the element by, by pushing. 00:28:54.342 --> 00:29:04.116 <v Piotr Turkowski>So for, for some elements, uh, they're not being For example, for linear joint seals, we don't use, gauges because they would simply destroy the very 00:29:04.971 --> 00:29:04.971 <v Wojciech>Mm. 00:29:06.020 --> 00:29:06.020 <v Wojciech>Mm-hmm. 00:29:07.063 --> 00:29:22.419 <v Piotr Turkowski>The third one, that's the tricky one because in a and everywhere you'll see that the cotton pad the, to the annex post surface, is something that is, uh, criterion of integrity. 00:29:22.419 --> 00:29:24.519 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the cotton pad is. 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:40.663 <v Piotr Turkowski>As far as I remember, three to four grams of steel wire cage uh, that has some extensions so that not exactly touching the element, the, the, the surface, but it's something like 10 millimeters away it. 00:29:40.663 --> 00:29:44.595 <v Piotr Turkowski>that if you apply to any crack to, to any part of the surface. 00:29:44.595 --> 00:29:49.545 <v Piotr Turkowski>But yeah, in reality, it's, it's being applied to or to hot areas. 00:29:49.545 --> 00:29:52.509 <v Piotr Turkowski>It cannot ignite, when applied for 30 seconds. 00:29:52.509 --> 00:30:01.795 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes, but it is clearly transfer of fire from one to another through that flaming or through hot gases. 00:30:01.795 --> 00:30:11.298 <v Piotr Turkowski>But at the same time, if the insulation performance not being assessed, so the eye criterion is not being assessed, use cotton pads. 00:30:11.298 --> 00:30:21.243 <v Piotr Turkowski>Because Cotton Pad, even though it's an integrity it's something that in reality, in a fire instance, test causes you to lose the insulation. 00:30:21.243 --> 00:30:32.980 <v Piotr Turkowski>there is a proposition, because the, the, the the EN 1363 dash one standard, is now, uh, starting get, a work item in sense. 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:34.506 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it'll go through a revision. 00:30:34.506 --> 00:30:41.343 <v Piotr Turkowski>there's a proposition for many years to that cotton path from integrity to insulation. 00:30:41.343 --> 00:30:43.152 <v Piotr Turkowski>I will develop it. 00:30:43.152 --> 00:30:45.132 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe I, I will get back to it. 00:30:45.132 --> 00:30:50.471 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, when talking about the insulation, I, and you start to see why it makes sense. 00:30:50.471 --> 00:30:52.122 <v Piotr Turkowski>So I'll do it right now. 00:30:52.871 --> 00:30:52.871 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:30:53.260 --> 00:30:57.550 <v Piotr Turkowski>ins, the insulation eye is another separating function criterion. 00:30:57.550 --> 00:31:03.356 <v Piotr Turkowski>but this one, uh, is not about the passage of fire one side to another. 00:31:03.356 --> 00:31:08.269 <v Piotr Turkowski>With flaming it's with only the temperature of the Yeah. 00:31:08.269 --> 00:31:20.990 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the temperature of the surface cannot get hot enough so that something that is adjacent to that surface ignite just because of the contact with the element of, with, with high temperature. 00:31:21.548 --> 00:31:24.940 <v Wojciech>Oh, of the unexposed surface, of course, outside of the Okay. 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.391 <v Piotr Turkowski>So that could be, I dunno, a poster, glued to, to the surface. 00:31:32.035 --> 00:31:32.035 <v Wojciech>Mm-hmm. 00:31:32.661 --> 00:31:33.351 <v Piotr Turkowski>some, something like that. 00:31:33.351 --> 00:31:35.761 <v Piotr Turkowski>The, the, the values are very low. 00:31:35.761 --> 00:31:36.810 <v Piotr Turkowski>are two values. 00:31:36.810 --> 00:31:42.510 <v Piotr Turkowski>There's the average temperature rise of 140 kelvins the initial temperature. 00:31:42.510 --> 00:31:44.642 <v Piotr Turkowski>So let's say the initial one was 20. 00:31:44.642 --> 00:31:55.442 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the temp, the average temperature of this surface cannot exceed 160 degrees Celsius, and the temperature rise is 180 VINs. 00:31:55.442 --> 00:32:00.902 <v Piotr Turkowski>So with the same initial temperature, it's not more 200, uh, degrees Celsius. 00:32:00.902 --> 00:32:05.288 <v Piotr Turkowski>the base for these values are also very old. 00:32:05.288 --> 00:32:09.366 <v Piotr Turkowski>They're, they were criticized over many years. 00:32:09.366 --> 00:32:19.605 <v Piotr Turkowski>Very famously, they were criticized by, by the outer of the two best papers, uh, that I recommend for the of fire resistance testing. 00:32:19.605 --> 00:32:20.430 <v Piotr Turkowski>professor. 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:28.355 <v Piotr Turkowski>So Professor Barca, is, uh, criticizing these values as being very, very low, very conservative. 00:32:28.355 --> 00:32:37.117 <v Piotr Turkowski>in a paper from something like 10 years ago in a safety journal, he proposed that value to be at least 300 CES or even more. 00:32:37.117 --> 00:32:41.644 <v Piotr Turkowski>And, to, to be honest, I do think that these values are quite low. 00:32:41.644 --> 00:32:53.471 <v Piotr Turkowski>and sometimes they're so low we make an exemption for door sets, these values, for the frame are not but they are 360. 00:32:53.471 --> 00:33:01.067 <v Piotr Turkowski>They're increased because for steel doors, are impossible to, to maintain, uh, below that threshold. 00:33:01.067 --> 00:33:10.284 <v Piotr Turkowski>so now when you, when you think about it, the, the, cotton pot, why would it ignite on the unexposed there is no flame. 00:33:10.284 --> 00:33:15.624 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause if there's flame, obviously it would ignite and you would observe sustained, flaming. 00:33:15.624 --> 00:33:17.874 <v Piotr Turkowski>So this is the criteria E. 00:33:17.874 --> 00:33:29.752 <v Piotr Turkowski>So you, you see that the, the, the mechanism, of igniting the cotton pad is very much the, the but at the same time. 00:33:29.752 --> 00:33:45.432 <v Piotr Turkowski>If you lose the installation performance, if you care about the temperature anymore because it's you are, you are no longer classifying your elements for for E only, then the cotton pad is excessive because 00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:48.509 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:33:49.211 --> 00:33:57.843 <v Piotr Turkowski>with flame, it would only, it could only also the heat is passing through the element and integrity is not about hot gases so much. 00:33:57.843 --> 00:34:05.476 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's about the direct, direct flaming, direct fire, over the, the entire, fire separating element. 00:34:06.275 --> 00:34:10.295 <v Wojciech>Yeah, I, I, I have some follow up questions about those, criteria, both e and I. 00:34:10.295 --> 00:34:24.487 <v Wojciech>So for integrity, perhaps it's just a polish thing because in Polish, the, the poor world we word, which you're very of, the word that we use for integrity would translate more like, tightness in English. 00:34:24.487 --> 00:34:31.657 <v Wojciech>And people hearing about the integrity, they would expect there is literally no smoke passing through. 00:34:31.657 --> 00:34:39.847 <v Wojciech>Like, I often see that when we host some tours in the lab, people are surprised, oh my God, there's so smart, so much coming through the element. 00:34:39.847 --> 00:34:41.018 <v Wojciech>Did it fail? 00:34:41.018 --> 00:34:41.708 <v Wojciech>Well, no. 00:34:41.708 --> 00:34:43.237 <v Wojciech>Well, it doesn't ignite the pad. 00:34:43.237 --> 00:34:44.018 <v Wojciech>So it doesn't fail. 00:34:44.018 --> 00:34:52.538 <v Wojciech>So, so if you could comment on how much can pass through wall, like literally until it, until it, uh, ignites the pad, you're good. 00:34:52.538 --> 00:34:52.748 <v Wojciech>Right? 00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:53.429 <v Piotr Turkowski>Exactly. 00:34:53.429 --> 00:35:01.110 <v Piotr Turkowski>We have a really nice video footage of one of the that, uh, Pavo and Jaggers were testing. 00:35:01.110 --> 00:35:03.340 <v Piotr Turkowski>can't see the test specimen. 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:09.731 <v Piotr Turkowski>The, the, the entire unexposed surface is full of dense yellow smoke. 00:35:09.731 --> 00:35:12.820 <v Piotr Turkowski>You can't see nothing, absolutely nothing. 00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:21.161 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's smoking, uh, that after five minutes, the, the of our facility is full of that smoke. 00:35:21.161 --> 00:35:22.331 <v Piotr Turkowski>Doesn't matter. 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:24.550 <v Piotr Turkowski>whatever it wants. 00:35:25.155 --> 00:35:25.530 <v Wojciech>still met it. 00:35:27.023 --> 00:35:27.023 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:35:27.023 --> 00:35:30.293 <v Piotr Turkowski>If you apply, if there's no sustain flaming, if there 00:35:31.992 --> 00:35:32.202 <v Wojciech>or gaps. 00:35:32.722 --> 00:35:33.893 <v Piotr Turkowski>that 60 millimeters yes. 00:35:33.893 --> 00:35:36.893 <v Piotr Turkowski>Or the cotton pad doesn't ignite, doesn't matter. 00:35:36.893 --> 00:35:41.259 <v Piotr Turkowski>can be, uh, whatever amount of smoke is. 00:35:41.827 --> 00:36:00.556 <v Wojciech>Yeah, I, I, I always like find this something very, very And, uh, for installation, it's, I also found it quite funny that, you are not very free to measure it where, where you it, it's like specific locations at which you are supposed measure. 00:36:00.556 --> 00:36:09.617 <v Wojciech>And when you say like, average on the surface, it, it's average of the points that are being pointed and measured. 00:36:09.617 --> 00:36:09.978 <v Wojciech>Right. 00:36:09.978 --> 00:36:24.099 <v Wojciech>I, I always try to, to convince our colleagues, uh, or you take that much convincing to, to put a thermal camera in front of, of the furnace, but that's not how this, this field of, of, of fire safety engineering works. 00:36:24.099 --> 00:36:25.358 <v Wojciech>We're very traditional. 00:36:26.197 --> 00:36:26.197 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:36:26.197 --> 00:36:34.530 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, the standard, to be honest, the standard doesn't anything about the, terminal camera or whatever that you could use during the test. 00:36:34.530 --> 00:36:38.505 <v Piotr Turkowski>for some reason, everybody thinks you, you, you can't do it. 00:36:38.505 --> 00:36:39.525 <v Piotr Turkowski>You have to measure the temperature. 00:36:39.525 --> 00:36:46.574 <v Piotr Turkowski>So for the average rise, you have five prescribed Sometimes it's six, sometimes it's more. 00:36:46.574 --> 00:36:56.481 <v Piotr Turkowski>But in, in a very general way, there are five points from any discontinuity, away from any, places be, let's say, difficult. 00:36:57.626 --> 00:36:57.626 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:36:58.072 --> 00:37:03.981 <v Piotr Turkowski>And then for the maximum temperature rise, you have a set of, uh, set of points that are being considered. 00:37:03.981 --> 00:37:12.771 <v Piotr Turkowski>Weak points, like the very top of the element or maybe the fixed edge, maybe near the joint, maybe near the joints. 00:37:12.771 --> 00:37:22.226 <v Piotr Turkowski>you, you, you could apply the thermocouple wherever you want, wherever you feel that, the temperature could be worse, but you cannot put them everywhere. 00:37:23.056 --> 00:37:23.056 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:37:23.396 --> 00:37:30.056 <v Piotr Turkowski>cannot cover the entire specimen with thermocouples say, well now, now I'm really measuring every week's spot. 00:37:30.056 --> 00:37:45.507 <v Piotr Turkowski>But in case during the test, a weak spot, uh, develops, like, I dunno, you start to see that maybe there was a severe concrete spawning in one place, or maybe was, uh, maybe only one board of fire protection fell. 00:37:45.507 --> 00:37:53.217 <v Piotr Turkowski>And there is, uh, you, you, you can see the, the start to getting brown like charring on the unexposed area. 00:37:53.217 --> 00:37:58.954 <v Piotr Turkowski>You can always take a roving thermocouple and apply it to that location and measure the temperature. 00:37:58.954 --> 00:38:02.014 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, whatever, whatever you want during the test. 00:38:02.014 --> 00:38:09.882 <v Piotr Turkowski>But there is a, a small yet quite important In Europe, we use thermocouples with pads. 00:38:09.882 --> 00:38:25.760 <v Piotr Turkowski>So we have a thermocouple attached to a copper that copper disc is covered with, uh, a tiny bit of material, so that it doesn't radiate so much of, uh, o of the heat away. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:31.221 <v Piotr Turkowski>In, in us they use also cotton pot, but they, cotton 00:38:34.518 --> 00:38:34.518 <v Wojciech>American. 00:38:34.940 --> 00:38:36.440 <v Piotr Turkowski>pots Amer Yeah, they are, they are American. 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:40.599 <v Piotr Turkowski>They are big and they insulate these thermocouples more. 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:42.856 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the roving thermocouple doesn't have any. 00:38:43.675 --> 00:38:43.675 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:38:44.532 --> 00:39:09.356 <v Piotr Turkowski>if you measure, say 200 cent degrees with a roving You can be sure that a thermocouple that would have attached to that location prior to the test and was that point, uh, all along it would have, uh, got the earlier, maybe three minutes, maybe five minutes, maybe even 10 minutes for some elements. 00:39:09.356 --> 00:39:14.771 <v Piotr Turkowski>the temperature on the unexposed surface is rising ever so slowly. 00:39:14.771 --> 00:39:19.871 <v Piotr Turkowski>That without these paths that could, that they would 00:39:22.179 --> 00:39:22.179 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:39:22.601 --> 00:39:27.190 <v Piotr Turkowski>obviously the unexposed area is always radiating part of that heat. 00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:30.672 <v Piotr Turkowski>So if it's hitting too slow, it'll not get to it. 00:39:30.672 --> 00:39:41.862 <v Piotr Turkowski>And I remember a few tests where, going from like 150 cent degrees to around 200 cent degrees 00:39:45.942 --> 00:39:45.942 <v Wojciech>Hmm. 00:39:46.152 --> 00:39:56.387 <v Piotr Turkowski>even a technician walking in front of the furnace and causing some air, air movement make a sudden drop of 0.50 cent degrees on the thermocouple. 00:39:56.387 --> 00:40:00.931 <v Piotr Turkowski>So, there are some quirks about that measurement as 00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:06.818 <v Wojciech>Well, in the end, like, uh, would that make the, the more dangerous? 00:40:06.818 --> 00:40:20.623 <v Wojciech>I, if it, uh, takes hour to, to heat up by a few degrees, kind of a game always, uh, like, uh, you know, to get a, to get the rank ranking, to get a, a certificate, to put a product the market for fair. 00:40:20.623 --> 00:40:23.172 <v Wojciech>This is the point of, of doing, uh, of doing this. 00:40:23.172 --> 00:40:38.010 <v Wojciech>But while there are things that I believe highly translated to real safety, sometimes those things, uh, are, you know, uh, just kind of a game, but an, anyway, um, we, we still have a few more to go, more exotic ones. 00:40:38.010 --> 00:40:49.739 <v Wojciech>You've mentioned radiation, you've mentioned Let's start mechanical impact maybe, or no, let's start You said that's three, uh, criterion related to far spread insulation, and radiation. 00:40:50.371 --> 00:40:51.001 <v Wojciech>Let's cover radiation. 00:40:51.001 --> 00:40:51.570 <v Wojciech>Why? 00:40:51.570 --> 00:40:55.590 <v Wojciech>It's WW why there's, like RR was taken. 00:40:55.590 --> 00:40:57.420 <v Wojciech>I get it, but yeah. 00:40:58.443 --> 00:41:01.353 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, yeah, that's a, that's a good question. 00:41:01.353 --> 00:41:06.603 <v Piotr Turkowski>So, uh, you know, uh, the standards are being uh, on a European level. 00:41:06.603 --> 00:41:09.483 <v Piotr Turkowski>So this one is from a, uh, German word. 00:41:09.483 --> 00:41:12.813 <v Piotr Turkowski>let me butcher the pronunciation for you. 00:41:12.813 --> 00:41:13.952 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, it's, uh. 00:41:13.952 --> 00:41:16.068 <v Piotr Turkowski>Very strong. 00:41:16.068 --> 00:41:21.632 <v Piotr Turkowski>so, so, that would be that, you didn't ask why the 00:41:24.465 --> 00:41:24.465 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:41:24.465 --> 00:41:26.239 <v Wojciech>Yeah, that's, that's a fair question. 00:41:26.764 --> 00:41:30.719 <v Piotr Turkowski>this one is from French, so, uh, let me butcher it as well for you. 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.860 <v Piotr Turkowski>That would be the Aton. 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:35.784 <v Wojciech>Well, Mr. 00:41:35.784 --> 00:41:40.885 <v Wojciech>Worldwide Good, uh, too many common letters for those Okay. 00:41:40.885 --> 00:41:43.045 <v Wojciech>Let's, let's talk, what was it? 00:41:43.045 --> 00:41:43.643 <v Wojciech>Warm telling? 00:41:43.643 --> 00:41:45.235 <v Wojciech>Uh, let's talk ling. 00:41:45.235 --> 00:41:48.565 <v Wojciech>What, why, what does the, the Rhodesian criteria represent and 00:41:52.704 --> 00:41:53.518 <v Piotr Turkowski>In, in, in, in a way. 00:41:53.518 --> 00:42:02.998 <v Piotr Turkowski>I, I would call it the weakest one, but it's the most severe integrity criteria, let's say, because this doesn't allow for, for, for much. 00:42:02.998 --> 00:42:09.605 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the radiation performance, is a third way of the, fire separating function. 00:42:09.605 --> 00:42:20.494 <v Piotr Turkowski>this time we don't care about the passage of flames, we don't care about the temperature of the surface, we about radiation of the surface. 00:42:20.494 --> 00:42:24.844 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it's not about the elements that are adjacent to wall. 00:42:24.844 --> 00:42:36.617 <v Piotr Turkowski>Thi this is about the elements that are on the other wherever they are, if they can receive that radiation and uh, and ignite themself from it, this is what we assessing. 00:42:36.617 --> 00:42:38.063 <v Piotr Turkowski>uh. 00:42:38.063 --> 00:42:39.793 <v Piotr Turkowski>There is no temperature measurement. 00:42:39.793 --> 00:42:42.643 <v Piotr Turkowski>Obviously there is no, uh, observation. 00:42:42.643 --> 00:42:51.492 <v Piotr Turkowski>There is the radiation measurement happening, and criterion is 15 kilowatts per square meter. 00:42:52.036 --> 00:42:53.387 <v Wojciech>If you think it was per, okay. 00:42:53.387 --> 00:42:56.956 <v Wojciech>It's obviously applied only to transparent elements. 00:42:57.735 --> 00:42:57.914 <v Piotr Turkowski>Not necessarily. 00:42:58.764 --> 00:42:58.764 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:42:59.085 --> 00:43:24.851 <v Piotr Turkowski>could, uh, you, you can imagine, um, a kind of, blanket or other type of material that is also being used to, uh, to divide space into smaller compartments, maybe a rolled up Uh, it, it doesn't have to be transparent, but when it's very thin, it can still get very hot and thus it can radiate enough heat. 00:43:24.851 --> 00:43:29.052 <v Piotr Turkowski>It is being mostly used for glazed elements, but not, 00:43:30.621 --> 00:43:30.621 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:43:30.621 --> 00:43:37.427 <v Wojciech>but, but do, do you ever have an element that would be just by the W or it's always in combination with something? 00:43:38.503 --> 00:43:43.304 <v Piotr Turkowski>So the combination of classes are usually the, the e be on its own. 00:43:43.304 --> 00:43:49.193 <v Piotr Turkowski>So we can have E 30, say, I always has to go, has to 00:43:51.867 --> 00:43:51.867 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:43:52.373 --> 00:43:52.554 <v Piotr Turkowski>as well. 00:43:52.554 --> 00:43:55.014 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it's EWEI or E. 00:43:55.708 --> 00:43:57.898 <v Wojciech>And all of them with, with the load bearing, so REI. 00:43:59.213 --> 00:43:59.213 <v Piotr Turkowski>Exactly. 00:43:59.213 --> 00:44:01.902 <v Piotr Turkowski>the, the insulation performance. 00:44:01.902 --> 00:44:05.427 <v Piotr Turkowski>The thermal insulation, I, uh, when, when it's 00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:10.588 <v Wojciech>Makes sense. 00:44:11.244 --> 00:44:18.143 <v Piotr Turkowski>if the temperature is below the, the threshold, you get the the W And if you lose the integrity, if you e. 00:44:18.143 --> 00:44:22.163 <v Piotr Turkowski>are losing all, everything else, you are losing the, insulation. 00:44:22.163 --> 00:44:23.813 <v Piotr Turkowski>I you are losing the radiation. 00:44:23.813 --> 00:44:29.902 <v Piotr Turkowski>W if you're losing load bearing capacity, then you are truly losing everything. 00:44:29.902 --> 00:44:37.583 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause when there is collapse of the element, we, we, we, we can't assess it anymore for, for the fire function. 00:44:38.541 --> 00:44:47.186 <v Wojciech>It makes sense that with I, you keep the w because it'll take you more than 500 degrees to, to, to, uh, to radiate 15 per square meter. 00:44:47.186 --> 00:44:52.496 <v Wojciech>And that's at like perfect back body, so probably close to 600 for real items. 00:44:52.496 --> 00:44:53.936 <v Wojciech>So, so, so, makes sense. 00:44:53.936 --> 00:44:57.297 <v Wojciech>What about, uh, class M mechanical impact? 00:44:58.492 --> 00:44:59.047 <v Piotr Turkowski>mechanical impact. 00:44:59.047 --> 00:45:06.713 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's probably the DM and mechanical is probably not because it's, um, another German invention. 00:45:06.713 --> 00:45:11.213 <v Piotr Turkowski>So probably there's a, there's another word for it. 00:45:11.213 --> 00:45:12.262 <v Piotr Turkowski>Um, mechanical impact. 00:45:12.262 --> 00:45:12.862 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh. 00:45:12.862 --> 00:45:15.713 <v Piotr Turkowski>Is being used mostly in Germany. 00:45:15.713 --> 00:45:38.525 <v Piotr Turkowski>And, uh, This is a verification of, uh, of firewalls uh, for unforeseen impact, not only from the from the vertical load, the, the compression, the, the axial force that we applied to that wall, but maybe, a piece of the roof, uh, falls off and hits that and we need to see the response. 00:45:38.525 --> 00:45:47.195 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the me mechanical impact is not exactly the response of the element to that, to that impact. 00:45:47.195 --> 00:45:54.947 <v Piotr Turkowski>it is verifying that the other criteria are still So, during a test, say after 120 minutes. 00:45:54.947 --> 00:46:17.074 <v Piotr Turkowski>You decide to not have only REI one 20 for your but you want to have even more, you want to have REI 20 dash m so you can say that my wall can, can mechanical impact from whatever is falling from the or is applying some horizontal load to my wall during fire. 00:46:17.074 --> 00:46:25.045 <v Piotr Turkowski>The way you will do it is that just after reaching this 120 minutes threshold, apply. 00:46:25.045 --> 00:46:35.284 <v Piotr Turkowski>That mechanical impact via, a bag filled with, lead that weighs approximately, uh, 200 kilograms. 00:46:35.284 --> 00:46:39.393 <v Piotr Turkowski>uh, it's on an arm of 1.5 meters. 00:46:39.393 --> 00:46:48.385 <v Piotr Turkowski>So you have that uh, sack of lead balls hitting the center of the wall three times. 00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:50.750 <v Wojciech>Like a, like a wrecking ball. 00:46:51.266 --> 00:46:51.896 <v Piotr Turkowski>like a wrecking ball. 00:46:51.896 --> 00:46:52.226 <v Piotr Turkowski>Exactly. 00:46:52.226 --> 00:46:57.835 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the first two impacts, are happening when the wall is still being bloated. 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:01.199 <v Wojciech>Mm-hmm. 00:47:01.643 --> 00:47:06.835 <v Piotr Turkowski>'cause you can easily imagine situation where the is holding the element in place. 00:47:06.835 --> 00:47:10.855 <v Piotr Turkowski>And maybe when you remove that load, then it's a truly wrecking ball. 00:47:10.855 --> 00:47:17.184 <v Piotr Turkowski>So there are two hits while the element is still And the third hit when it's unloaded. 00:47:18.543 --> 00:47:18.543 <v Wojciech>Mm. 00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:20.849 <v Piotr Turkowski>And, the element still stands. 00:47:20.849 --> 00:47:32.581 <v Piotr Turkowski>then have minutes to further assess the load bearing So did the contraction of that element increase the, the criterion? 00:47:32.581 --> 00:47:34.715 <v Piotr Turkowski>You assess again, the integrity. 00:47:34.715 --> 00:47:43.967 <v Piotr Turkowski>Did the, did this wrecking ball cause any more, cracks or openings or whatever that I can, uh, say that lost integrity? 00:47:43.967 --> 00:48:02.280 <v Piotr Turkowski>Or did they cause this element to deform in such way that thermal installation is not being kept if during two minutes, after all these three hits, criteria are, are maintained, you can add to your dash m. 00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:04.110 <v Piotr Turkowski>impact. 00:48:04.458 --> 00:48:20.449 <v Wojciech>w when I saw that for the first time, you had this really nice video of, of the ball going like straight through a wall it really gives you, you know, I'm, I'm pretty sure that when promoting this episode, you will happily link the video once again on LinkedIn for anyone interested. 00:48:20.449 --> 00:48:37.005 <v Wojciech>But, uh, it, it like gives you another dimension that you While something can be still standing and, and, and be the function, because it just exists, it sometimes doesn't take much to, to have this damaged element to lose it. 00:48:37.005 --> 00:48:46.139 <v Wojciech>And, and this is often a, a difference between a building, building, not surviving, firefighters being safe, being unsafe. 00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:46.989 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:48:47.835 --> 00:48:48.181 <v Piotr Turkowski>Even more. 00:48:48.181 --> 00:48:58.811 <v Piotr Turkowski>I, I, I'd like to notice that, in our Polish national regulations, somebody, uh, thought that, know, 20 dash m. 00:48:58.811 --> 00:49:02.974 <v Piotr Turkowski>is one class, but the mechanical impact test is not 00:49:04.072 --> 00:49:04.072 <v Wojciech>Okay. 00:49:04.773 --> 00:49:07.773 <v Piotr Turkowski>So maybe not many manufacturers have that ification. 00:49:07.773 --> 00:49:23.768 <v Piotr Turkowski>So in one of the regulations, for waste manage sites, uh, there's a requirement that firewall must be of REI one 20 dash m class, or, and this is being an equivalent, 240. 00:49:23.768 --> 00:49:31.027 <v Piotr Turkowski>So they switch the mechanical impact for double the and it doesn't work that way. 00:49:31.027 --> 00:49:39.969 <v Piotr Turkowski>For reinforced concrete, maybe that would be reinforced concrete can withstand that mechanical impact easily, but for many walls. 00:49:39.969 --> 00:49:56.666 <v Piotr Turkowski>Reaching four hours of, fire resistance for REI 240 that difficult as to withstand three times a wrecking And exactly the video that you are referring to is a that has just passed four hours. 00:49:56.666 --> 00:50:03.882 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it's REI 240, but it collapses under the first So it's not the same. 00:50:03.882 --> 00:50:15.434 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's, there are two very different classifications, but we have our, our, uh, law bringers lawmakers, uh, not yet very familiar with the topic. 00:50:16.262 --> 00:50:31.623 <v Wojciech>I mean, there's not very many people familiar with the topic, if I'm honest with you, because, uh, we are, uh, having fun this as insiders who are doing this for living, you know, uh, unfortunately, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. 00:50:31.623 --> 00:50:39.971 <v Wojciech>So what happens in fire lab stays in far lab, and that, unfortunate reality of, of, of, of the world of fire safety, engineering and, episodes like this are, are. 00:50:39.971 --> 00:50:42.791 <v Wojciech>My way to perhaps change this a little bit. 00:50:42.791 --> 00:50:44.746 <v Wojciech>Um, you brought me to the time aspect. 00:50:45.137 --> 00:50:51.947 <v Wojciech>If we still have some time, I would love to talk about I know there are many other criteria which would be more specific. 00:50:51.947 --> 00:50:56.896 <v Wojciech>Uh, I think we covered the main, uh, important ones and I want to talk about time. 00:50:56.896 --> 00:51:02.306 <v Wojciech>So Piot, a 30 minute wall plus 30 minute wall is a 60 minute wall, right? 00:51:03.998 --> 00:51:08.460 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah, obviously has to be, I mean, it could. 00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:09.179 <v Wojciech>It. 00:51:12.775 --> 00:51:13.284 <v Piotr Turkowski>But it could not. 00:51:13.284 --> 00:51:27.922 <v Piotr Turkowski>you know, the, the more I work with this, the more I to say I don't know, because after so many years dozens of tests, I can say I, I, I've seen some stuff that I would never think of, that that would happen. 00:51:27.922 --> 00:51:35.003 <v Piotr Turkowski>And I've lost my arms and legs and my head and my already so many times when I was betting that, that could never happen. 00:51:35.003 --> 00:51:35.992 <v Piotr Turkowski>And it happened anyway. 00:51:35.992 --> 00:51:37.043 <v Piotr Turkowski>yeah. 00:51:37.043 --> 00:51:38.784 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe for, for reinforced concrete. 00:51:38.784 --> 00:51:39.204 <v Piotr Turkowski>Absolutely. 00:51:39.204 --> 00:51:44.152 <v Piotr Turkowski>Because going from 30 minutes to 60 minutes is, it's an increase of 20 millimeters of concrete. 00:51:44.152 --> 00:51:46.164 <v Piotr Turkowski>So obviously you'll, you'll, you'll get that. 00:51:46.768 --> 00:51:46.768 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:51:47.364 --> 00:51:54.652 <v Piotr Turkowski>But, uh, for a lightweight partition, if you put them one next to another, uh, no, I wouldn't be so because. 00:51:54.652 --> 00:52:02.958 <v Piotr Turkowski>the, the second one is getting way bigger, uh, heat after the first one collapses than the first initial 30 minutes. 00:52:02.958 --> 00:52:03.228 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:52:03.228 --> 00:52:11.347 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's, it's like with charing of timber, you can have protection on timber, and then you calculate the grade, uh, very differently. 00:52:11.347 --> 00:52:17.197 <v Piotr Turkowski>So without any fire protection, you get this magic let's say oh 0.7 millimeters per minute. 00:52:17.197 --> 00:52:21.068 <v Piotr Turkowski>And it's a steady value, constant value of charring, timber. 00:52:21.068 --> 00:52:24.083 <v Piotr Turkowski>if you get fire protection, is not like that. 00:52:24.083 --> 00:52:39.920 <v Piotr Turkowski>After, let's say 30 minutes when the fire protection off, uh, the timber starts to char at oh 0.7 No, it's, the charring is very rapid and it's back to the value it want to always be, when there was no fire protection. 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:41.510 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it doesn't work this way. 00:52:41.510 --> 00:52:45.853 <v Piotr Turkowski>And we, we also say it for concrete, for, uh, for fire protection of concrete until. 00:52:45.853 --> 00:52:48.820 <v Piotr Turkowski>The, the fire protection stays in place. 00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:58.179 <v Piotr Turkowski>We can, can see its influence on the fire performance, but one, once it's gone, the temperature in concrete is also rising very rapidly. 00:52:58.179 --> 00:53:01.081 <v Piotr Turkowski>the, the countdown doesn't begin at zero. 00:53:01.081 --> 00:53:16.478 <v Piotr Turkowski>The temperature that, uh, the, the second leaf of wall or that element is, starts to be exposed to, 0 cent degrees rising to 608, 800 after 30 minutes, are starting at 834 cent degrees. 00:53:16.478 --> 00:53:16.867 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yes. 00:53:16.867 --> 00:53:19.208 <v Piotr Turkowski>So it's already a huge impact on that element. 00:53:19.907 --> 00:53:19.907 <v Wojciech>Mm. 00:53:20.137 --> 00:53:20.347 <v Piotr Turkowski>It can. 00:53:20.347 --> 00:53:48.893 <v Piotr Turkowski>Even just the, the temperature gradient, the sudden of the very cold element to not 20, not a hundred, not 600 centimeters, but to a heat from furnace, of very uniform radiation inside, to 900 This can cause even, col collapse than it would if was heated from the beginning. 00:53:48.893 --> 00:53:52.338 <v Piotr Turkowski>Another two examples, uh, quick ones is, is the 00:53:53.273 --> 00:53:53.273 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:53:53.958 --> 00:54:02.960 <v Piotr Turkowski>sping is very often way more severe when you expose the concrete to greater gradient of temperature between the heated zone and unheated zone. 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:12.797 <v Piotr Turkowski>if you have fire protection and it's gone after some concrete, uh, and, and the concrete was, uh, cold, very likely explode. 00:54:12.797 --> 00:54:15.496 <v Piotr Turkowski>We, we, we've seen it many times. 00:54:15.496 --> 00:54:17.717 <v Piotr Turkowski>It, it literally explodes. 00:54:17.717 --> 00:54:26.047 <v Piotr Turkowski>uh, and second example, o of that is why we assess, some elements with, more severe fire curves. 00:54:26.047 --> 00:54:34.963 <v Piotr Turkowski>We, we didn't say it, but the standard fire uh, standard fire curve, but we have hydrocarbon fire, have RWS and they are very steep. 00:54:34.963 --> 00:54:36.702 <v Piotr Turkowski>They're in three minutes. 00:54:36.702 --> 00:54:41.322 <v Piotr Turkowski>We are, we are supposed to reach 1,100 C degrees or 1200 C degrees. 00:54:41.322 --> 00:54:49.414 <v Piotr Turkowski>Just this small change that the element is suddenly exposed to these extreme temperatures, causes to it behave differently. 00:54:49.414 --> 00:54:53.940 <v Piotr Turkowski>So a 30 minute wall plus 30 minute wall is unknown. 00:54:54.978 --> 00:54:54.978 <v Wojciech>Yeah. 00:54:55.500 --> 00:54:55.650 <v Piotr Turkowski>is unknown. 00:54:56.358 --> 00:54:59.650 <v Wojciech>and, and also like the hours are not even to each other. 00:54:59.650 --> 00:55:07.931 <v Wojciech>So, uh, the, the, like the fourth hour of fire resistance test is a very different heat load than the first hour of fire test. 00:55:07.931 --> 00:55:11.831 <v Wojciech>So it's not like it's just 60 minutes or 30 minutes more. 00:55:11.831 --> 00:55:16.922 <v Wojciech>Fire resistance, It, it's like a different product overall with a different resistance. 00:55:18.114 --> 00:55:18.114 <v Piotr Turkowski>Absolutely. 00:55:18.425 --> 00:55:19.291 <v Wojciech>That, that's how I understand. 00:55:19.291 --> 00:55:25.411 <v Wojciech>And, and how, when, when you measure that in, in the furnace, do you like, sit with a stopwatch and like 60 minutes pass win? 00:55:25.411 --> 00:55:27.239 <v Wojciech>Or, when do you assess it? 00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:28.793 <v Wojciech>It has passed a 60 minutes. 00:55:28.793 --> 00:55:29.094 <v Wojciech>Is it? 00:55:29.094 --> 00:55:29.902 <v Wojciech>Exactly 60 minutes. 00:55:30.532 --> 00:55:31.217 <v Piotr Turkowski>NN yeah. 00:55:31.217 --> 00:55:37.456 <v Piotr Turkowski>The, there's, the short answer is if you get 60 on the clock, it's 60 minutes. 00:55:37.456 --> 00:55:46.050 <v Piotr Turkowski>I mean, I don't want to get anyone nervous about, stating that the, uh, REI rating is the same as 60 of fire or whatever. 00:55:46.050 --> 00:55:48.090 <v Piotr Turkowski>We're talking about the furnace minutes. 00:55:48.090 --> 00:55:50.820 <v Piotr Turkowski>If you get 60 minutes, you get REI 60. 00:55:50.820 --> 00:56:01.974 <v Piotr Turkowski>The uncertainty of the entire test method is unknown, and we get a beautiful note in our testing says exactly that. 00:56:01.974 --> 00:56:03.353 <v Piotr Turkowski>The uncertainty is unknown. 00:56:03.353 --> 00:56:05.693 <v Piotr Turkowski>We cannot assess it in any way. 00:56:05.693 --> 00:56:11.956 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe we could quantify a bit the temperature the time measurement, and so on, but the this is unknown. 00:56:11.956 --> 00:56:15.347 <v Piotr Turkowski>So there is no, safety rule below. 00:56:15.347 --> 00:56:24.927 <v Piotr Turkowski>Safety above, or whatever there Uh, there is only one rule, and that rule is what you read exactly on the is exactly the rating you're getting. 00:56:24.927 --> 00:56:26.217 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the same goes for temperatures. 00:56:26.217 --> 00:56:31.407 <v Piotr Turkowski>We know that the thermocouples, are for the uh, surface temperature. 00:56:31.407 --> 00:56:33.266 <v Piotr Turkowski>They are plus minus four Kelvins. 00:56:33.266 --> 00:56:35.817 <v Piotr Turkowski>This is the requirement from the standard. 00:56:35.817 --> 00:56:45.440 <v Piotr Turkowski>know that our thermocouples are more like plus one and a half Kelvin, but it doesn't matter if you 180 Kelvins. 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:54.539 <v Piotr Turkowski>It's gone if the measurement is above that okay, you, you, you could go through the documents of that exact thermocouple that you used and see. 00:56:54.539 --> 00:57:01.599 <v Piotr Turkowski>Oh, but that this thermocouple, makes the temperature, uh, recording, one Kelvin higher than it should be. 00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:01.898 <v Piotr Turkowski>Yeah. 00:57:01.898 --> 00:57:03.219 <v Piotr Turkowski>So maybe I have one more Kelvin. 00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:05.588 <v Piotr Turkowski>Maybe I have this 30 seconds more or something. 00:57:05.588 --> 00:57:07.088 <v Piotr Turkowski>No, doesn't matter. 00:57:07.088 --> 00:57:12.494 <v Piotr Turkowski>if it's within limit the thermo couple, the reading That's it. 00:57:12.494 --> 00:57:13.125 <v Piotr Turkowski>That's your criteria. 00:57:13.125 --> 00:57:14.085 <v Piotr Turkowski>And the clock. 00:57:14.085 --> 00:57:15.014 <v Piotr Turkowski>60 minutes. 00:57:15.014 --> 00:57:15.494 <v Piotr Turkowski>Oh. 00:57:15.494 --> 00:57:15.675 <v Piotr Turkowski>Oh. 00:57:15.675 --> 00:57:17.175 <v Piotr Turkowski>You got REI 60. 00:57:21.362 --> 00:57:22.592 <v Piotr Turkowski>to say in French for our French. 00:57:23.451 --> 00:57:24.050 <v Wojciech>you get a Class D? 00:57:24.050 --> 00:57:40.233 <v Wojciech>Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's, uh, I ask this obviously uh, I've seen some conversations and, uh, it's that, that, that they failed like seconds to, to, to the And, uh, yeah, that, that, that's probably very, very for the clients. 00:57:40.233 --> 00:57:41.043 <v Wojciech>But, uh. 00:57:41.670 --> 00:57:43.829 <v Piotr Turkowski>Uh, it is what it is. 00:57:43.829 --> 00:57:46.710 <v Piotr Turkowski>A, a as, as you said earlier, sometimes it's a game. 00:57:46.710 --> 00:57:48.809 <v Piotr Turkowski>Some manufacturers treat it as a game. 00:57:48.809 --> 00:57:59.804 <v Piotr Turkowski>They, when they, when they are designing a product seconds more and not more, because that more Cost money. 00:57:59.804 --> 00:58:04.844 <v Piotr Turkowski>So they want to get the product for exactly the rating they want to sell it for and not more. 00:58:05.538 --> 00:58:06.018 <v Wojciech>yeah, yeah. 00:58:06.018 --> 00:58:11.251 <v Wojciech>Another, another aspect, uh, of the industry that, many would not be aware. 00:58:11.251 --> 00:58:11.670 <v Wojciech>Pi. 00:58:11.670 --> 00:58:22.891 <v Wojciech>I had like a long list of things on fire resistance to but I think we've done a good job covering the criteria of resistance and I hope our listeners enjoyed that. 00:58:22.891 --> 00:58:30.568 <v Wojciech>And I would welcome you once again, uh, to the podcast to the beautiful world of, uh, fire resistance, uh, once again. 00:58:30.568 --> 00:58:32.757 <v Wojciech>And thank you very much for today. 00:58:33.268 --> 00:58:34.018 <v Piotr Turkowski>For your anytime. 00:58:34.018 --> 00:58:35.759 <v Piotr Turkowski>Thank you, for having me. 00:58:35.759 --> 00:58:36.869 <v Piotr Turkowski>Thank you very much. 00:58:37.387 --> 00:58:37.838 <v Wojciech>And that's it. 00:58:37.838 --> 00:58:44.027 <v Wojciech>I promised you it's complex and not easy, and I hope, satisfied with this discussion. 00:58:44.027 --> 00:58:55.097 <v Wojciech>I am very much satisfied with this discussion because Piot uh, very good at what he's doing and is been doing far tests for as long as I remember in my professional career. 00:58:55.097 --> 00:59:01.518 <v Wojciech>Uh, it's a man who's seen hundreds of those, so I take his uh, very strongly. 00:59:01.518 --> 00:59:26.083 <v Wojciech>In this episode, we try to show you some of the insiders because I often feel very, hmm, how to say it, disturbed by the fact that, uh, fire resistance is being treated like an comparison between the elements, especially when, when talk like putting something like a timber structure or you want change. 00:59:26.083 --> 00:59:40.143 <v Wojciech>Completely the type of the structure, let's say from concrete to annex exposed steel or to protected steel, or maybe even as simple as comparison between two fire protection Should I use spray paint? 00:59:40.143 --> 00:59:41.884 <v Wojciech>Should I use mortars? 00:59:41.884 --> 00:59:43.954 <v Wojciech>Should I use fire protection bolts? 00:59:43.954 --> 00:59:48.858 <v Wojciech>They all have the same rating, and while to extend, it's interchangeable. 00:59:48.858 --> 00:59:54.407 <v Wojciech>I need to recognize that this fire resistance is. 00:59:54.407 --> 01:00:08.862 <v Wojciech>Performance of a individual element or individual and, and while the minutes are the same, while the furnace is the same, the different criteria make comparison between groups of those elements. 01:00:08.862 --> 01:00:09.802 <v Wojciech>Impossible. 01:00:09.802 --> 01:00:17.842 <v Wojciech>Like if you compare a column for resistance to, for of a ceiling slab, it's obvious it's two different values. 01:00:17.842 --> 01:00:27.356 <v Wojciech>'cause one is a column, it's a vertical, and slab is and completely different load, completely different criteria for deflection, contraction, et cetera. 01:00:27.356 --> 01:00:43.059 <v Wojciech>I think at that case it's, it's quite easy to to understand the comparison is not there, not the direct one, but, uh, you talk about different, like say fire protections of beams or, or some, something that would be perhaps similar in the use, uh. 01:00:43.059 --> 01:00:46.641 <v Wojciech>You need to understand the nuances that, that go into it. 01:00:46.641 --> 01:00:51.141 <v Wojciech>And then I hope we, we brought some nuances of that, uh, to today. 01:00:51.141 --> 01:00:55.311 <v Wojciech>And, uh, I hope we will be able to talk with Otra a little bit more. 01:00:55.311 --> 01:00:58.610 <v Wojciech>Uh, we'll do a calculation methods episode as well. 01:00:58.610 --> 01:01:06.726 <v Wojciech>So, so that would come complete the, this, uh, perhaps take on fire resistance and, uh, I really hope it's gonna be. 01:01:06.726 --> 01:01:08.460 <v Wojciech>A good one as well. 01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:21.630 <v Wojciech>And uh, for now, I would like to thank you for being here me on this beautiful day, and I hope to see you here again Wednesday for another episode of the Fire Science Show. 01:01:21.630 --> 01:01:22.891 <v Wojciech>Thanks for being here with me. 01:01:22.891 --> 01:01:23.280 <v Wojciech>Cheers. 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:23.880 <v Wojciech>Bye.

246 - Fire Fundamentals pt. 20 - Fire Resistance Criteria with Piotr Turkowski

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