Chatting about What to Expect with Heidi Murkoff

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and twenty six, which is airing at the end of November of twenty twenty one. Sarah is going to be interviewing Heidi Murkoff, who many people know from the very popular What to Expect when You're Expecting book series, both about pregnancy, about the first year or two about trying to conceive. There are titles that cover the whole range now but definitely an iconic figure in child bearing and rearing. So we're very excited to hear what they're going to talk about. So, Sarah, did you read a lot of books when you were pregnant about what to Expect, even if you, I mean, we probably read what to Expect, but other than what to Expect as well, Yes, totally read that. One read a lot of the standard ones. I think there was one that was like your Baby's First Year, and it like goes in month by month. I think I was a little more into the baby books than the pregnancy books, but I certainly read both. And the most memorable book I read, like the one that stands out to me, like I vividly remember turning the pages and devouring the content was bringing up Bibe, the book about like raising your child like French parents do, which is so hilarious in retrospect because I don't think my style of child rearing has any parrels. And I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying, like I certainly did not hit the marks that were outlined in that book. I should read the thing again. Law Yeah, I don't know. I'm I'm not generally prone to reading a whole lot of parenting books. I think Michael bought some of the baby books and read through them. We have a copy of a you know, the American Pediatrics Association Guide to Your Baby's first year, which occasionally some of the stuff was was helpful, like, for instance, that babies stop pooping frequently at some point, and if you haven't been around a whole lot of babies, I mean I had baby said a lot, so I just had some familiarity with with all of this. But you know, they go from from pooping like constantly to then not, and a lot of people assume that something went horribly wrong or there. You know, babies like terribly constipated and go through all this stuff to like try to get them to it's like no, they just you know, go from like multiple times a day to like two three times a week or something, and it's just like a huge sudden change for many babies and it's nothing went wrong. It's just their GI system just changed them. So something like that might be helpful to know. But yes, yeah, so fun fact, in many pediatrics residency programs, including ours, and I can give myself a tiny bit of credit for this, we actually offer a month of elective credit if you have a baby, where you just learn about your own baby and all these kind of parenting stuff. Common questions that you're going to be asked because truthfully, the experience of parenting and all those things that you're going to look up are things that you're going to need to know for your clinical practice later. So yeah, it's like it's like a mini course in pediatrics. And sometimes those books can help you along and sometimes when it's your fifth kid, you probably would have just recognized that that's what happens, just what happens. Yeah, yeah, I know, So that's uh, definitely, you know. And the funny thing about I mean, I know, parenting books are very popular. It's fun to you know, get parenting tricks and hacks and things like that, But I mean, so much is about if by the time you're reading a parenting book, you care about your kids like you care about doing a good job, which means that your kids are most likely going to do great, like you know, anything that was within your control, you're you're working on. And so you know, while there may be theories that are helpful for day to day life and management, you know, it's probably not what's going to separate from your child being a total delinquent to being you know, a rock star. It's not that it was something you read read in a book and decided to try. But you know, like I said, there can be good hacks in terms of how to help encourage happiness about homework. I don't know. Maybe I don't know anyone's come up with that one. If you have, let me know, because yes, that'll be a future guest because I'm still working on that. See. Yeah, well and in our family. I mean, I'm saying a lot of stuff is just like you have to learn from your own experience that all you know, you've coasted through school for a certain amount of time. You get to classes that are harder as you get higher up in school, and then you have to learn how to study. And it probably isn't helpful to have mom telling you how to study because you think anything that mom's telling you is stupid and wrong. But when you figure it out on your own, then it works. So the question we can ask Heidi is also like, I think she does have some books for older kids, so maybe she can give us some recommendations there, Yeah, exactly. All right, Well, let's hear what Heidi has to say. All right, I am here with Heidi Markoff. I am so excited to introduce her to you. She is the author of the iconic series of books What To expect, and Heidi go ahead and introduce herself to our audience. Hey, I'm Heidi. I'm a mom of two. I am also a grandmother of two. I don't know when that happened, very suddenly, very suddenly. All I can say is, don't blank. Whatever you do, don't blank. So yeah, I'm all about what to expect, a lot of what to expect things, what to expect dot com, what to expect, books, what to expect project. So yeah, happy to be here and I want to hear all about those. But let's take a deep dive into the past. When you were writing your very first book, can you tell our listeners, like a little bit about the story of how that came to be? Well, funny story. I got knocked up, so what's you know? We didn't see that coming. That tells you how clueless I was at the time. But yeah, we got married three months later. Oops, I was pregnant. I ran out to the bookstore tried to find some books. There were a couple, but they didn't answer my questions, and I found them uniformly terrifying. And yes, they hadn't been written by anyone who had been pregnant before, so true story. Two hours before I went into labor with Emma, I delivered a for a book that would become What to Expect when You're Expecting. So it was a very busy day, productive but busy, and I gave birth to Emma and What to Expect all within the space of those twenty four hours. That is amazing. So how did you? How did so? Then you had to write your book while you had this new war, and how did that go? I did so. I'm not quite sure how I did that. In retrospect, if I look back on it, it seems implausible. But I did a lot of breastfeeding I was writing. I probably breasted better around the clock just so that I could get some writing done. And but you know the thing is, it wasn't about writing a book, writing a bestseller, becoming, you know, starting a brand, nothing about that. It was just that I was a mom and a mission and the mission was to help other parents sleep better at night than we had. And I figured if a couple of parents read the book slept better at night, I would have accomplished what I set out to do. So it's been a labor of look and the mission hasn't changed at all. It's just grown a lot, has grown a lot. Yes, what do you think it is about your writing and your book other than the fact that you actually had a uterus and had a baby and we're writing from experience. Do you think that's why it resonated or do you think there was also something else about the content you put out, like was it more real? I know you're into TMI. It's like there is no TMI with you, which is a good no TMI. No. In fact, all you have to do is check my messages on Instagram and you will know there is no such thing as TMI. People write to me with everything, and I answer every question I get. But I feel like, yes, you have to put yourself in a pregnant woman's shoes or her uterus, you know, and know that her shoes don't fit because her feet scholen. So yeah, I had a slightly used uterus at the time. But I think that was really helpful, not because I was writing from my own experience, because every pregnancy is different, every mom is different, every woman is different, every baby is different, every family is different. So your own personal experience will only get you so far because you can expect everybody else's experience is to be somewhat different. But it's having perspective and empathy that I think matters the most, plus just information that's easy to read, fun to read, hopefully, because if you can't laugh about pregnancy and being a parent, you're kind of screwed right from the start, right you really have to be able to laugh at it, but also to hold hold parents' hands as they go through this very exciting yet very terrifying experience. And it can be terrifying and exciting in the same breath. So I think having that perspective helps a lot, but also having information that's accurate, that you can trust, it's easy to read, and it's funny because when What to Expect first came out in what nineteen eighty five, you know, it was way back in the day, the first edition, and I went to an ACAP conference with my posher and they were giving out books and I literally heard two older men walking by the booth saying, what do women know about pregnancy? I am not kidding. You can't make this stuff up. So that tells you a lot. How you know about where we have come since that moment, in that this has become an experience that we own more so than we used to that we're empowered about. That's the whole point of What to Expect is to empower parents as they go, and you know, the best way to empower them is with knowledge. Knowledge is power, especially empowering when you're pregnant or you have a new baby who won't stop crying in the middle of the night. So your daughter, who was just a baby when you were attending that conference and when you were writing that book, is now a full grown adult with a baby of her own, is that correct? Actually she has two of them. And if you look at the fifth edition of What to Expect When You're Expecting, you'll see her picture on the cover. So it has come full circle in every way possible. In fact, Lennox, who is her first baby's on the cover of What to Expect the first year when he was an eight month old and now he's eight years old, which is crazy, And Emma is older than I am, so awkward for everybody. For funny, because she did inspire what to Expect just by being in the right uterus at the right time. But of fun fact about Emma said, she doesn't listen to any of my advice because I'm her mom, right, So who listens to their mom? Like I sure didn't. But she she talks a good game, she's she's amazing, and we've got to she's got to Sebbian and Lennox. Oh, that's amazing. And you do have a podcast together, now, is that right? We do where we agree to disagree a lot, what to expect. Give me, give me some examples. I want to hear some juicy, some juicy disagreements. It's funny that you actually she actually normally what happens is she asked for my advice, does the opposite, and then says, I wish I had listened to your advice in the first place. So yeah, it works out really well. So maybe I told her to do her keegals and she said, mom, you're so embarrassing, and then on social media announced that she should have done her keegels for obvious reasons. So yeah, things like that, like not putting Lennox down for naps and said, you know, letting him sleep on her until he was like two and a half, things like that, and then she was like, why did I not listen to you? But you got to figure things out for yourself and really when it comes down to it, there's no one right way to be a parent. And you know, with the exception of keeping your child healthy and safe, which she has done twice, they are both survivors of her parenting. No I'm kidding. And yet you know, if you do that and love your child unconditionally, which of course she does, then you're a successful parent. And that's what I tell parents all the time. There are lots of good ways to do a good parent. You have to listen to that little voice inside you. And I think that that kind of like, hey, the most important part is the health and safety. And here's a bunch of ideas, but it's going to be okay. Is kind of the essence of some of your books, and I think what people really like about them. Yes, because this is about supporting parents, not judging them. As you know, we do a lot of judging a fellow mom's and we shouldn't because we all need each other. We're all in this together, literally, and we're never in a place where I think it probably SEMs from the fact that women in general, because I notice the dads don't do this. They can be super supportive of each other, but they they really don't judge each other's choices or parenting philosophies. We women tend to judge ourselves so harshly, and I that's why, you know, because we judge ourselves and we find it, you know, somehow easy to judge one another. But in fact, it should all be about supporting one another because you'll need that. I wonder if some of that judgment comes from a place of like, am I doing this right? Well? If that's the wrong way, then I guess I feel better at myself about myself because it's the right way for hers. And there are so many different parenting philosophies, so many different camps. But it's not necessarily about being in a camp and picking a camp. It's about doing what feels right for you and for your baby, for your body, whether it's getting an epidural or not, whether it's breastfeeding for tea years or just breastfeeding for two weeks, whatever you know works. Here's all the information, here's all the tips, and you pick and choose what works for you. And what works for you. Is it necessarily going to work for the mom on your message boards, or the mom down the street, or a mom around the world. Or a Mike might not even work for you for your next kid. Well that's and it might not even work for you on the same kid day to day or from warning to afternoon. You know, there's got to be a lot of flexibility and a sense of humor built into the whole process. But not judging yourself and not judging others. That's the fundamental foundation of what to expect. I love that. Are we going to take a very quick ad break and then we'll be right back. Okay, we are back, and I want to ask you about a topic that I saw on your podcast recently that I think would resonate with our listeners, and that's about mom guilt. Oh, tell me about that episode. How it went. I'm so curious. I think, get to listen to it in its entirety. So want I want the click notes, and I want your thoughts on the whole topic. Well, you know, guilt comes with the territory. It's sort of in our job description. I think it's impossible to avoid altogether. And there are good things about guilt, like it really keeps you on your toes. It gets you to look at what you've been doing and see, well, can I do better, that's fine, But when it becomes all consuming or it keeps you from enjoying the journey, then it's way too much. Or when it turns get turns around and is directed at others, so we tend to feel guilty, but then we also tend to shift guilt onto other people. Hey, listen, it's been passed from generation to generation, mom to daughter, daughter to daughter and so on, and you know it's inevitable to a certain extent, but you have to cut yourself a lot of slack. There are so many expectations, unrealistic expectations put on moms these days, by social media, by influencers, and it's really hard to live up to. But you've got to remember, you're the best mom for your baby, and you know that's something you can't let go of. You're the best mom your baby ever had. I mean, it's true, but that's how you You're not going to avoid all the guilt, but it is important to put it in perspective and cut yourself a whole lot of slack because this is hard. Growing a baby is hard, Being a mom is hard, and it's only become harder over the generations. I mean, here we have you know, we're juggling babies and careers in school and so many things that perhaps our grandmothers didn't have to juggle, So it's a lot more demanding. And then we have the unrealistic expectations that are placed on us and that we place on ourselves. So yeah, too much of a good thing sometimes, Yeah, yeah, I think that a lot of that resonated with me and I'm sure will resonate with our listeners about you know, the highlight reels that we view, and then how we might choose to or just subconsciously judge ourselves based on what we see is what's supposed to be happening when your point before about like your main job is to make sure your kids are loved and safe. Like none of that has to do with matching outfits in Instagram pictures exactly, And those matching outfits we're gonna have split up all over them anyway, So it's kind of pointless from the get go. But yeah, I mean, the expectation that we can do it all and do it all, well, it's just I'm not buying that. It's not possible, and so you have to prioritize what really matters and your mental health matters. We don't put enough emphasis on how mom feels after she gives birth and her her mental health impacts you know, her recovery but also impacts her baby, and so we have to you know, but making those kinds of that kind of support system available for every mom is super important as well. Absolutely, And I know your books contain sections specifically, and I remember that on addressing mental health after the birth and making that just an important part of the recovery process and before the birth as well. By the way, because you know we have postpart and depression. We don't think about pregnancy mood disorders as much, but they exists as mood disorders do in the general population. It's just that those kinds of conditions put you a greater risk postpartum but also during pregnancy. And it's not limited to depression. There's anxiety disorder. There's even PTSD if you've had a previous traumatic pregnancy or a very complicated one oh CD. There's lots of ways that it can manifest. But the one thing that you need to know is sometimes being strong means asking for help, and we can all do that for each other. We must, We have to it's really important. So I think that kind of reminds me of some of the outreach work that you're doing to help moms learn these very important things and pay attention to these very important topics. Can you tell our listeners about the What to Expect Project and your work in that realm? Well, we actually the epiphany for the project came about when I I, way way way back, when I was invited to do a kind of Q and a session meet and greet with pregnant inmates at Riker's Island Prison. And the first thing I went in not knowing what to expect broom. But I walked in and you know, brought books with me, and what sort of the light bulb went off that every mom wants the best for a baby. Every mom, no matter what her challenges, her circumstances, wants her baby to be healthy and nurtured and have a healthy future. And so with that, I realized that a lot of moms weren't getting the basic information that they needed to have a healthy pregnancy or the support because really, you can't be an effective nurture unless someone nurtures you body and mind. So we started a program called Basics, which is a pregnancy guy that we've given away about a million copies in English and Spanish and Chinese for women who couldn't afford a book and who didn't necessarily have the literacy skills necessary to read a book like What to Expect. So that was the first thing. We do a program with a Military Special Delivery where I host baby showers around the world for military moms, so about probably so far three hundred baby showers and places from Korea, Japan, Kansas, Alaska. And that's really special because these moms are so far from their family and friends and their network of support. They need that support and to serve that support, but there's a fundamental lack of awareness of what military moms go through. So that's Special Delivery. We have a program in Bangladesh and Liberia, and we're starting when in Nigeria a basics program as well. Because we've traveled to South Sudan a couple of times, to Sierra Leone, to Bangladesh and India. Refugee camps were Syrian refugee Somali refugee camps, and again, motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood. No matter where I go in the world and no matter how many hugs I give, and you know, for me, hugs are the universal language. But everyone wants a healthy future for a baby, and I feel like it's up to us to help her provide that nurture the nurtures of the world. That's amazing. I was just struck by the idea that, like, there are some questions that you probably get that are like the same, like, no matter who it is, they're asking completely and that Yeah, when I went to Rikers Island and spoke to those pregnant women who were inmates, I got the question, you know, so I have a toothache, is it's safe to go to the clinic to get an X ray? And I think our assumption is always, unfortunately in our society, is that moms who you know end up in prison, well they had it coming, or they don't care about their babies. No, there are harsh realities in this world that we can't judge because we don't ourselves face them. The same thing in a refugee camp, I hear this. I was sitting there on the floor with a bunch of Syrian refugee moms who wanted birth control so badly, but it was taboo and their culture so they needed the mean I see this all over the world, but they needed the permission of their partner. And we were talking about different forms of birth control and passing around an IUD. And again, knowledge is power. It's incredibly powerful to these women who have not been empowered. So to take control of their reproductive life and their health and their family self is what it's all about. But I do hear the same questions. And I in a little village in sarah Leone, they brought mothers from all over the surrounding villages. They meet under a tree. That's their clinic is under the biggest tree in the village, and all these moms gathered around with their babies. And yes, they asked exact same questions. Because we are in this boat together, you know, we do face as different as our challenges are, you know, our goals are the same. Healthy happy baby, healthy happy mom exactly, and that's our mission. That's amazing. That is so cool that you're able to spread all this knowledge and that you've been able to bring it to these communities. And I love the idea of like a basics book, because it's true. Just handing out copies of your book would have been easier, but to make a version to try to make it as accessible as possible is a really great idea. Accessible and also that you know, the realities of your health care may be completely different. You're working a system that those who are privately ensured don't have to work. Makes it very complicated. So there's a lot of a lot of things that don't necessarily apply, a lot of things that do apply. Access to good nutrition, it's not a given, it's not you know, you may not have well you certainly can't afford and you probably don't have the whole foods in your neighborhood, so you know, forget about that. How do you feed your baby wealth in the reality of your world, and that goes you know, for around the world. Those challenges exist, and how can you help moms have healthier babies no matter where in the world they live, no matter what their socioeconomic, religious, racial, cultural, political profile. And something else we do a lot is advocacy in Congress. We recently passed helped pass a piece of legislation that was in the National Defense Authorization Act this year, having tricare cover duelists for every military mom and lactation support for every military mom. So there's many things that we can do. There are lots of problems in the world, but if we don't take care of our moms, that's the foundation of everything else. If moms in a society are not healthy, then their babies aren't healthy, then the future of that country is not healthy economically or socially or in any way. So it really is the foundation of a healthy future. I love it. Okay, So if you were going to let's say you're like at a party and your friend's daughters having her first baby, and she's like in two minutes, like, what would be the biggest piece of advice you could give me from the guru of what to expect I am expecting, tell me the essence of what I need to know. What would you say, Well, first of all, I mean I've got a couple of things. One is that there's no such thing as a perfect parent a perfect mom, so don't even try, like it's it's kind of the definition of impossible. But more importantly is that you got to stop and smell the babies. If I have one piece of advice that I give over and over and over again, don't sweat the small stuff, except for that small stuff like stop and smell that baby and remember that. You know, like they say that, the days are long, the years fly by, and all of a sudden you've got an adult child in your life with children of her own. But it's so you know, I wish I had followed my own advice, but I didn't have it at that point to just you know, slow down and just savor that sweetness, every moment of that sweetness that you can even the calla key ones, because hey, I was two for two with colic. I mean, what are the odds? Oh my goodness, I don't think we dealt with colic, but we had other we had other fun stuff, and that that stuff is going to happen, and there are going to be days when you just don't love being a mom. It's just really really hard, and it's hard to get through the day. But then you look at that baby and you know, take a sniff and remember what's important and remember not to be so hard on yourself, take time to savor some of those moments they stop and smell the babies. Yep, I love it. Well. We always end our episodes with a love of the week, So I didn't really prepare you. But that's okay. It can be it can be anything. It could ye a book you love. It could be like Ameli, you ate last week, that was amazing. It could just be like the weather is great. I'm gonna go first. That'll give you time to think. Yeah. So my love of the week is actually not my own love of the week. This is via report of one of my best friends who had a baby a few months ago, and she told me that the baby Buddha pump is very much worth checking out asap. It is tiny, it is mighty, and it definitely didn't exist when I had my last baby, which was not that long ago. So it just amazes me how many new things are on the market all the time. Oh yeah, no, that's that's a fact. I would have to say that my love every week is hugs. You can't buy am but I have missed them so much over the last oh what twenty one months of pandemic parenting. You know, our baby showers have gone virtual. We just started them back up again with hugs, and I can't tell you, I mean, there are times when I feel like I just can't let go. That for me, is the most precious commodity of all. So the baby Buddha sounds amazing. But give me a head a hug any day of the week and I'm a happy, happy camper. I love it. Yes, and you're right. The pandemic probably made us all realize how important that is. When you take something away and you get it back, it's like all that more exciting and sweet. No, it definitely is. And hugs are that for sure? Awesome? What was so wonderful having you on What an honor? I am sure our readers know where to find your books, but where else can they find you? Hey, you can find me at Heidi Murkoff, just that anywhere you do your social media, so that would be Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. And when I say I answer every question I get, I mean it. So middle of the night you may find me on my iPad half falling asleep and you know, putting a role of unintentional letters accidentally and then waking up and realizing I got to finish that sentence. Yeah, that's me. That is truly amazing. I can't imagine any moms, and I'm there to support you, all of you. I love it well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. All Right, well, that was fascinating, so great to hear from Heidi Murkoff. So our question this week comes from a listener who is looking forward to camp. So we have all sorts of ambitious and productive people listening to this podcast who are already thinking about summer camp, and so our listener asks, is there some secret code to figuring out which ones will function effectively? Like childcare? I have been looking around at the camp options for the area, and it is really hard to tell at first glance which ones cover enough hours with aftercare or longer days and don't, for example, ask you to pick up your kids because the weather is bad, which is what some of the outdoor day camps do. The answer may be that I just need to talk to other parents and really dig through the website and camp calendars, that I am finding the options overwhelming. So Sarah, what recommendations do you have here? My recommendation would be to go with camps that are based at schools or childcare settings. So, for example, in our area, many of the private schools offer camps so and many of the campers are kids who do not go to those private schools, so they're open to everyone, and most of those schools already have a functioning like before care and aftercare system, because hey, private schools are expensive, so a lot of these families do have to working parents, believe it or not, and so I think that is a great route to go in. I know in our area that every private school camp that I know of offered beforecare aftercare and would never have called I mean unless we were having a hurricane or something. They weren't going to cancel things. I do. On the other hand, know that, for example, if you do a specific sports camp that's run by maybe a small company where they do lessons and they're kind of turning it into a camp for the summer, those are the ones where they probably don't offer a lot of options and they I didn't enroll my child in this camp, but somehow got in there, like text listserve, and I kept getting like inclement weather camp is canceled, and I remember thinking to myself, well that's rough. So I would be careful with the like really small singular activity ones that are only based outdoors. I mean, I guess it depends on where you live. Perhaps there are parts of California that can get away with an outdoor camp where there's no shelter that's reliable, but down here that would never work. Camp would be canceled daily as we have afternoon thunderstorms roll in basically like clockwork every afternoon. So yeah, but I think looking towards schools and other childcare facilities and seeing what they offer and believe it or not, you know, some of them have people on staff that work for the camp all year long. So you could call now and find out what they've done in the past and what they're planning on offering in the future. Yeah, I would. I would definitely suggests something like if you have a local YMCA that those offer do offer you know, before care and aftercare during the school year, and part of their function is to serve you know as wrap around childcare for the school year, and so then theirs summer camps are designed to you know, provide the same coverage that people would get through the beforecare and aftercare for the whole day. They are aimed at providing childcare, and the fun is obviously part of it, like they're you know, doing classes and games and outdoor time and whatever else. But they've been set up primarily as childcare and so that is the function they are serving, whereas a camp that's yeah, Sarah was saying primarily about teaching you soccer. Well, they're there to teach you soccer, and they're not necessarily they may offer a little before care or aftercare, but their primary function is not to enable you to get to work for the day. So that's that's something to consider with that. But yeah, your question just asking other parents, you know, if you have other families who are similar situations to you, you know, to working parents, need full time coverage before care, aftercare, ask what they've done, you know, and probably whatever those families have done is something that you could consider doing too, you know. But like everything, you're going to need some sort of backup option as well, as we've talked about with layered childcare. Any situation can go wrong. My kids were in a camp this summer where one day, like the electricity went out at the camp and so you know, the air conditioning wasn't working. The plumbing stops working. Eventually when you've got it's going to be a bad situation with hundreds of kids if the plumbing isn't working. So you know, they were shut they were shut for the day. And you just can't anticipate everything like that. So same as if school is your primary childcare during the year, it just sounds like it is, you're gonna need some situation to cover it. Now if your kids are older, like they're all in school, maybe it's just that you can personally work from home if you need to, or your partner can work from home, and so if there was an issue we camp wasn't open, you could just have the kids at home running around the backyard and watching movies all day while you still, you know, do your meetings by zoom and that could function as your layer. But you know, obviously you don't want to be driving kids at nine thirty and picking them up at two thirty if that's the case, you know with the camp, So you want to have your primary one be something that would be there for the full time hours. And then even if you could work from home with the kids entertaining themselves, that would be the backup for that. Well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah was interviewing Heidi murcaff about what to expect while you're expecting, but other things too. They talked a lot about other things as well. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.