Katie Woo talks Cubs-Cardinals, Buy/Sell scenarios, Oli’s rise

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I think when you're looking at what the Cardinals are going to do going forward, how they play heading into the All Star break will ultimately force Johnasy allowed to make the decision.

00:00:12
Speaker 2: Here we go, Katie Wu from Cardinal territory and the athletic covering the Cardinals joining us right now on FT Katie. Great to see you, and finally we have the Cubs and the Cardinals meeting up.

00:00:23
Speaker 3: I'm like, when are they going to face off?

00:00:25
Speaker 2: I know that people didn't expect the Cardinals to be good this year, but now that they are, this is a fun week for us. How is it going so far with the Cardinals dominating in Game one? And is this a good litmus test to see what the Cardinals are going to do at the trade deadline?

00:00:38
Speaker 1: A super fun series? Here a bus, JADM. It only took eighty nine days for the Cardinals and Cubs to see each other. That's about the amount of time that AJ goes before texting me or needing me for something. So Agent, I'm glad to see you two shows in a row with you. We're on a better track now. But let's talk a little bit about the Cardinals and this upcoming or this current series with the Cubs.

00:00:58
Speaker 4: Katie, don't get started, because I have friends in high places in Saint Louis. That so just know that I have friends in high places.

00:01:06
Speaker 1: So just befaure, what are you talking about, Daniel Descalzo.

00:01:11
Speaker 4: No higher than that way. I know the cat, So I had the cat on speed dial. Jim Hayes. There's a guy even above him named Chip Carrey, who I can call in text at any time. They can give me all the scoops. So let's just say, you know, we need to stay in our lane. Like Ken Ken, Little Ken says, we need to stay in our lane.

00:01:29
Speaker 3: Katie, I will.

00:01:30
Speaker 1: Do my best to stay in my lane, but as we all know, I'm not super great at that. Back to Cardinals and the Cubs, this is a huge series and a huge test for the Saint Louis squad that I think has remarkably surprised a lot of the industry, candidly, including myself, and how good they've been, how consistent they've been. The Cubs too, I mean, they've pretty much had the division since the season started. And you guys know this. Every year we come and we talk about the five hundred NL Central, it's oh who can win eighty one games, they're probably going to win the division. Now we have the Cardinals, Cubs, the Brewers, and to some degree the Reds all kind of vying for this division, and I have no idea how it's going to go. I do know this series. Anytime you have the Cardinals and Cubs play each other, it's a big deal. But this one, particularly because these teams are so close atop the division, and as we head into the trade deadline just where you know, with just one week away from July, it's going to have a lot of ramifications on how each team proceeds further. So I'm excited to see how the rest of the series shakes out.

00:02:30
Speaker 3: Does it really come down to this series? Though?

00:02:31
Speaker 4: How the Cardinals determine what they're going to do the rest of this year? Is it really on this series? Because they're in a good spot. They have young guys playing, they're performing, they're pitching I think has been better than they expected.

00:02:44
Speaker 3: So do you really think it comes down to this series?

00:02:45
Speaker 4: Because if so, they're off to a great circus. They whooped the Cubs last night.

00:02:50
Speaker 1: Well I would have said if they got swept in four games, that would have I think been a pretty solid tell, but that's not going to happen because they did when on Monday. I think when you're looking at what the Cardinals are going to do going forward, how they play heading into the All Star Break will ultimately force John Roseaeilo to make the decision. But I want a caution. Just like all year long, it's not black and white about the trade deadline. Just like the Cardinals overall, it hasn't been black and white versus player runway versus team results. There is a way the Cardinals can do both. And when you're looking at where this team stacks up heading into July, they're very much in contention for the division, They're very much in contention for the wild card. Do you focus on the long term goal, which was the overall priority for this season, of player development and knowing what you have in twenty twenty six or beyond, or do you recognize that so many of these players who just saw Alec Burlison him include it have taken steps forward much earlier than the team maybe would have expected. And now you're sitting in a spot come July where all of a sudden, you might be a contending team this year even if that wasn't always the plans. So it's not just this series, it's their play through the rest of the All Star until the All Star Break, but they do have a lot of division match it's coming forward. They played Pittsburgh next week and then three more games at Wrigley Field over fourth of July, so we'll see how the team shapes up heading into the All Star Break.

00:04:09
Speaker 5: Kittie, I think that a lot of baseball fans out there are have been surprised by the Cardinals success this season because of the way that the last year year and a half have gone. And you cover this team very closely, So what do you think the biggest differences between this year and last year? What has accounted for most of the success and having them be right there at this point in the season.

00:04:33
Speaker 1: Honestly, Trevor, I hope this comes across the way that I mean it. I think it's the lessoned expectations and twenty twenty four of the Cardinals are coming off their worst season in almost thirty years, and the twenty twenty three season was embarrassing on all records, and in twenty twenty four, there was a lot of internal pressure to write the ship that's why the Cardinals went out and loaded their rotation with veteran guys like Sonny Gray, Kyle Gibson, Lance Lynn, and the young guys that they called up upon, whether that's Jordan Walker, whether that's Win Nolan Gorman. They faced immense pressure to perform now because the direction of the franchise rested solely on the twenty twenty four season, and the Cardinals were much better in twenty twenty four compared to twenty twenty three, but still missed the playoffs. And when the Cardinals decided to do their transition season this year, the expectations overall relax. And that's not to say that the organization expected them to lose and we're okay with losing, suggested the opposite. Actually, it was, Hey, we're going to give these young players that we believe are going to be permanent fixtures in our club going forward the amount of time that they need, an amount of playing time to become accustomed to the major leagues without having to worry about the team result. And what that allowed these players to do is focus on their game, focus on performing. They're not worried about if they're going to get sent down to the Triple A after a bad week, they allowed to grow through the game and early mistakes, and that's directly led to wins. I don't think it's unfair to say that the correlation between letting the kids play if you will and the win column directly ties into each other. Because this Cardinal's team was afforded the ability to just relax and go play baseball. They've done exactly that, and it turns out they have a lot of good ballplayers on their roster.

00:06:13
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00:06:29
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00:06:39
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00:06:46
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00:06:47
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00:07:13
Speaker 4: Katie Cards Fin Cards fan Caine wants to know. I understand why Burlison is getting the opportunities he has, but have Gorman and or Walker gotten enough opportunities to prove themselves.

00:07:28
Speaker 1: This is a super good question, and this is exactly where the organization is looking right now. All year long. We've talked about balancing runway and results, right well, what about extending runway to the players who have provided the results Like Burlison. You're seeing that a little bit more with Nolan Gorman, maybe not to the extent that the Cardinals wanted to, but Jordan Walker's on pace for about four hundred of bats this year, same with Gorman, maybe a little less. Around three to fifty four hundred of bats to me is a solid enough sample size to decide what this player is going forward and what is going to be a really different decision for Ali Marmal going forward is does he continue extending runway to players who don't have the same production or stat line as players like von Herrero when he's healthy and Alec Gurlson, And unfortunately for Jordan Walker's case, he fits into that. So can the Cardinals continue seeing what they have in Jordan Walker and playing him those six hundred of bats? They can, But if they continue to contend, there's going to be a lot of pressure to play the guys that are performing, and at some point the organization is going to have to decide can they change the runway between players. I don't think they're going to switch the direction. I still think the Cardinals should stick to what they plan for twenty twenty five and pledge for the future, which is finding out what young players can help the team going forward. But maybe what changes is the players they're evaluating. So I'm not quite there on Jordan Walker yet, but I do think if the Cardinals keep up their winning ways, we'll see a focus to the players that are performing, regardless of who the organization pledged playing time for.

00:08:55
Speaker 5: Early in the year, spoke on a couple of the young guys trying to get more opportunities but there has been one guy who's been absolutely rock solid for the last three years and got a little bit better every year, and that's Brendan Donovan. Let's talk in your words, what has he meant to this team and just kind of literally being the cornerstone, the consistent guy putting the bat on the ball every day in the day out. What does he meant for keeping kind of everyone on that in that lineup kind of even keel and the production continuing.

00:09:28
Speaker 1: I love a good Brendan Donovan segment because he deserves all of the praise. When the Cardinals were at their their peak, think early twenty tens, they had a bunch of gritty guys who played around the infield, played the game the right way, did the small things. For lack of a better term, they played to the Cardinal way. And Brennan Donovan reminds me a lot of those guys. And he has been invaluable to the team a year after year, but this year you can make the argument that he's been their most valuable player his defense at second base, though he can play around the diamond, as we know, he's a utility Gold Glove winner, But what he's been able to do at second base has really solidified the infields. What he's been able to do with the lineup, whether he's batting in the three hole or batting leadoff, he gets on base, he hits the ball. And there's been some tremendous growth from Donovan. From a personal standpoint. Entering the year, he's twenty eight, and he was kind of in the middle, not old enough to be an established veteran, not young enough to be considered in that runway playing time development group. So we kind of came into the season without an identity and decided, you know, I'm not someone's gonna talk about myself or boast myself up. I'm not one of those loud leaders. But I'm going to find a way to be a really good teammate and really take this club under my wings and try to be a leader in my own way. And he's done exactly that. So we'll focus on the stats and the production because that's what wins ballgames. But Brendan Donovan as a leader, he's also grown tremendously. Has the respect of the veterans across the board because he goes out and plays every day, and as you're looking for this Cardinals team and twenty twenty five and beyond, and you look at the future of who could lead this core. I think Brendan Donovan has solidified himself as a key member this club going forward.

00:11:03
Speaker 5: You need those guys in your team if you want to be successful long term. Let's switch gears quickly to pitching. You wrote recently wrote an article previewing the Chicago cub series, and you talked about the Cardinal's rotation and being much more of a strength than they were projected to be. They're six in the league in innings. They have about a league average right in the middle era, which you'll take with everything that we were anticipating. But one thing interesting you mentioned was the organization has been extremely intentional about maximizing rest and keeping guys on a six day rotation. So, in your opinion or maybe things that you've heard, where does that six rotation thing come from? Is that like a concerted effort to get guys a little bit more rest so that they can you can let them go deeper into games and we can have the starter's eating innings. Is that because the bullpen was projected to be maybe a little weaker or an experience you want more out of your starters. What's the thinking behind the six day rotation thing.

00:11:57
Speaker 1: It's actually it comes from a lack of depth in the organization overall, outside of Michael McGreevy, who will take a spot start for the Cardinals tonight. You can make the argument that McGreevy should be in the rotation full time, and I wouldn't push it, but this goes back to our original point. The Cardinals do not have really any depth in Tria outside of Michael McGreevy. Their top pitching prospects, while talented and exciting, aren't yet built up to the major league level, and they just have a gap in terms of health. Trevor, you can speak to the importance of this. Pitching health is top notch, and unfortunately we've seen a rise in pitching injuries. The Cardinals are one of the very few teams knock on Wood that have not had a significant injury to a pitcher in the rotation or in the bullpen, and that is because Ollie Marmel and pitching coach Dusty Blake have been so intentional about keeping guys on a six day schedule. That extra day of rest, as you know, matters so much, and when you have a staff that's mostly veteran Miles Michaelis, Sunny Gray, Eric Fetti, those things matter. Then you have your younger two guys and Andre Pilante and Matthew Livertour who are becoming starters for the first time in their careers on a consistent basis. You also want to manage the innings a little bit, so giving these guys and maximizing the off days, utilizing mc greevy when he can. Stephen Mattz took a couple of spot starts when needed. That's allowed the rotation to stay on the schedule. And it's one to benefit the pitchers, but it's two to cover the lack of depth in the organization. Because if you are down two starters in this rotation, we are no longer talking about how surprisingly good this rotation has been. We're facing a much bigger crisis in the overall state of pitching in the organization.

00:13:32
Speaker 4: Wow, okay, crisis crisis mode for Katie will Yeah, here's the thing, Olie marmal is he the manager of the year and how has he done this? Because I think going into this year people were saying, man, this guy's on the hot seat.

00:13:45
Speaker 3: He's in trouble.

00:13:46
Speaker 4: You know, heim Bloom's going to take over for mozey Lock at the end of the year, he'll won his.

00:13:50
Speaker 3: Own guy in there.

00:13:51
Speaker 4: You can't get rid of Ali Marmal with what he's done so far this year.

00:13:55
Speaker 1: Look, Aj, I know you want to hype up your high school classmate. I get it, Jirst.

00:14:01
Speaker 4: Of all, first of all, he's much older than I am. Oh did you tell by the beards?

00:14:06
Speaker 1: No?

00:14:06
Speaker 3: Actually, I'm Whaled. That's Whaled?

00:14:08
Speaker 4: Are you?

00:14:09
Speaker 3: Oh?

00:14:10
Speaker 1: Wow?

00:14:10
Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?

00:14:11
Speaker 1: Until Ali I said that, I didn't know?

00:14:16
Speaker 4: Okay, continue to see the Manager of the year and has he earned himself a long term extension? Possibly because again people were saying heim Bloom might be thinking about going a different direction, but he's done such a good job you can't get rid of him.

00:14:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you, and I think it's natural to be to call in the question a new front office coming in if a manager will change as well. Also, when you look at the last two years for the Cardinals, just did not perform well. But I think Olie Marble has done an incredible job managing so many different things that most managers don't have to think about because not only is he managing to win as many games as possible, he's also managing for the long term, long jefty of the organization. And to your point, AJ, there was no guarantee he'd be here after twenty twenty five. Now I think that is changing, but nothing's for certain. He's done an exceptional job. He has has the Cardinals seven games over five hundred. They were projected to be one of the worst teams in baseball. Well, I never thought they were going to be as low as twenty five out of thirty like I saw in many projections. I certainly didn't see them as playoff contenders come the last week of June. And he's been able to do that by managing playing time, promising playing time to players at the front office highlighted, while also keeping tempers and egos in check in that clubhouse. As you all know, it can be very difficult when you have players that you have to sit because other players were promised playing time ahead of them. He's managed all of that extremely well. He's kept his pitching staff healthy, he's kept a lot of these young players on track, if not ahead of schedule for the future, and based on just where the club was a year ago to where they are now. Everyone seems to be on board this transition season that could have easily gone sideways, especially in April where they really just didn't have a good month. But he has just done some tremendous work, and I hope we continue to talk about this narrative because in my opinion, what he's doing in Saint Louis is not talked about nearly enough.

00:16:08
Speaker 2: By the way, we've got a ten year differential between Aj and Ali. I just looked it out, so I just made no no, I mean, are you kidding me? I'm not worried about Ali, Katie. I'm more concerned about Aj. Ali goes with the flow. Now we've got Aj on vacation thinking he's ten years younger than he is.

00:16:29
Speaker 1: This is good, Aj.

00:16:30
Speaker 2: You got next question, big boy?

00:16:32
Speaker 3: All right?

00:16:32
Speaker 4: Before we go, Katie, I have to ask you this you mentioned we kind of mentioned in the last question him in mosay Lock. This is Moe's last year before he steps down and goes into a different role in his life. Is he going to go for it? Is he going to go for it at the trade dealing? This is last This is the end of his legacy, and he nobody wants to go out on a low note.

00:16:52
Speaker 3: Do you think that.

00:16:53
Speaker 4: Dewitz and the owners of the Cardinals will say, Mo, here's some extra money at your last year, Boom, let's let's throw it all in and.

00:17:00
Speaker 3: See what we can do.

00:17:02
Speaker 1: That is such a fascinating question because I can see both sides of this, and you are right that this is ultimately going to be an ownership decision, and ownership that has prepared for a recession in terms of both gate revenue, ticket sales and then the restructured television deal. So the Cardinals were expecting to lose some money this year based on yours prior. But when you're thinking about Moe's final year, the fact that the Cardinals have already laid out their transition plan heading into twenty twenty six, it's a great question on what the Cardinals should do. I'm under the belief that they can continue doing both, that they can continue building towards the future but still upgrading their roster. The Cardinals are not going to go up and do this full big blockbuster trade to improve the roster and go all in right now. That's just not something that they've done really in years where they had no excuse to, and now that they do have a legitimate excuse to keep the organization on track for twenty six I can't see moiviating from that plan. But he also has to keep in mind that whatever decisions he makes in July will have you know, he has nothing to say with it after October. That's when him Bloom is taking over. So the whole point of creating this transition plan was to implement a clean segue, a clean slate for heim Bloom to take over next season. That's not to suggest that the Cardinals can't be competitive and can't continue pushing to be contenders, but when you're looking at what they're going to do with the trade deadline, while they still haven't fully decided and likely won't for a couple more weeks, there is a way for them to do both, and I think that's the best look for the organization overall. They don't need to blow it up and sell, they don't need to blow it up and buy. They can incrementally improve at the deadline and still keep their transition plan in place for Hime to take over. To ensure that successful. I don't know passing of the power.

00:18:45
Speaker 3: You're okay with that?

00:18:46
Speaker 2: AJ, Does that sound like a good plan?

00:18:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, listen, I'd love teams to go for it, and Saint Louis fans have always seen their team go for it, so I assume Mozaylak would be like, I'm gonna take my boat tie and I'm gonna throw it all in and we're going to go. But we'll see, we'll see, we'll see what I mean. But they were supposed to lose money, but they have they're doing better, so Saint Louis fans will come out, so now they're not going to lose money. So it's such an interesting choice for what they're gonna do.

00:19:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy for MO two to have a season like this because it could have gone really really wrong for them, and it has not. It's already it's looking like a win here in the first half. Katie, great to have you on. Thank you always, great to see you. I love listening to Cardinal Territory. There a bunch of player interviews too that were recently on there, so if you want to check those out, go give them a look. Learn more about Andre Polante, Matthew Libertire, right was on one of the great Yes, those two are great together. If you go further back there's more too to check out. So Katie, thank you, appreciate it.

00:19:46
Speaker 1: You got a guys, talk to you later.