Compare & Despair - Thoughts on Comparison and how to avoid too much of it

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and seven. We will be talking about the idea of compare and despair. I know we have a love hate relationship with social media. We love connecting with so many of our listeners through social media. Without the Internet, what would we even be, right. Sarah and I got to know each other through our blogs. Wonderful way of connecting with human beings, but also brings its own challenges as we see certain aspects of our fellow human beings lives and perhaps not other aspects of their lives. So Sarah wrote a blog post a few weeks ago about trade offs and sort of what I took from because it got at this whole compare and despair idea with social media, but be pointing out that even with two high incomes, people still have to make some sort of trade off. So maybe you can just talk our listeners who maybe don't read your blog a little bit through what you were talking about. Of course, and there wasn't really a lot of despair in that post. I think sometimes I don't know. First of all, I will say a disclaimer and say, you know, like most of my posts, I wrote it in about I don't know, twenty minutes, like it was very much four I am to write, Yes, that is how I blog. It's I don't see that changing anytime soon. I think it does lend a very realness, but it doesn't mean that I've sat there and reviewed five drafts of it to make sure I've you know, conveyed the exact meaning I wanted to, because there wasn't a lot. I guess there was sort of a tone of despair in that post because I was also complaining about some parenting challenges I've been having, because I don't even think I had that much direction for the posts as I wrote it, but it was Okay, how do I put this? To me? It was more of like a discovery, and maybe I had been living for a while with a myth that if you have too well paying jobs and two physician jobs, which when I think of my childhood and growing up, to me, that seems really high earning. And you know, above what I was used to, even though I had a very comfortable upbringing, that you could have whatever you wanted, and that you could have a fancy house and it would be normal to have a fancy house and a fancy car and full time childcare and all the vacations. And I certainly look around at some of the people I work with, and I do see evidence at least the things I notice. Of course, you might notice someone's fancy car and not realize that they don't have a nice house or that they more commonly are very much in debt or living paycheck to paycheck. And the other thing I mentioned on the list was you know, a shot at retirement at a reasonable age and also savings. That made sense, So like someone might have thought, and maybe I, as a naive, I don't know, twenty eight year old might have thought that you could have everything and that just sort of stuck with me, and then when you actually sit there and do math, you're like, oh, no, you can't, or at least I can't. We can't, And that's okay, it's completely okay, but you know, unfortunately, and now I'm off on like a huge tangent. But I feel like nobody talks about this stuff, even within the financial independence community. There's not a lot of like concrete discussion. I'm like, I spend on this, so I don't spend on that, or like, you know, I earn a great living, but I still can't sock away more than fifteen percent of it without compromising on the lifestyle. I'm just using, you know, examples because again, it's very taboo to talk about real numbers. And I guess that post was my sort of reckoning of like where we are right now. And a lot of people said, oh, my gosh, exactly like what you mean, and a few people were kind of like, ugh, privileged complainings. But I don't think I meant it that way at all, or at least to me, that's not how I wanted to convey. Yeah, and I think this is all, you know, exacerbated by what we see, right because I mean certainly, you know, living in a nice area, high cost of living area, you see a lot of wealthy people. You see what they have, you don't see what they're trading off. I mean, we don't necessarily see people's bank accounts. But because of social media, you also see a wider variety of what people are choosing to show to the world and the various influencers we can all follow. And so I've been thinking a lot about this compare and despair mindset because I think we're both subject to it, which is somewhat strange, because I think we both recognize that we have really good lives, like objectively very good lives, and I think we have different trigger points that get us to get that sort of jealousy when we see things on social media. But it's something I've been reckoning with a lot, like what should I do about that? And should I change up my social media habits? Why do I feel this way? What exactly am I jealous of? So I know what I can do with that? And you talk about this a little bit in we have an upcoming episode with very exciting guests. But that made Sarah think about these things. So what do you think triggers it for you, like what triggers the comparison aspects for you. That's a great question. So I'm not going to give too many spoilers. Can I mention who the guest is are? Is that? Okay? Okay? So Emily Ostar is going to be featured on the next episode. I had a wonderful time interviewing her, and I'm very sincere when I say I greatly enjoyed her book. I didn't feel like the book meant to or should have triggered any sort of comparison issue. But the thing is, the book touched upon a lot of intentional decision making, decisions around activities, around school, around where you live, around all these things, which she mentions fairly enough have a financial component. And I guess that's just kind of what you know, if you're trying to live as intentional as possible, but then you come to the realization that, like what you thought was possible is not possible. It just I guess that was a little bit of a trigger point to me. And I will be honest, you know, the more I am on social media, the absolute worse this is. And I'm gonna I'm gonna go through the list of the things that I felt like, it seems like all the successful people have, Okay, a beautiful Pinterest perfect house, because I feel like anytime someone shows their house interior, it's like obscenely organized and looks enormous. Full time childcare because like, how else would you have time to work out and do your job and all those things, or you're a stay at home parent, So I guess one or the other. Fancy cars, because I mean, I don't feel like I see this one on social media as much, but I see it in real life. So there you go. Amazing vacations. I feel like every time I turn around, someone's taking a giant ski trip or something like that. Private school if that's a choice for people, and certainly again where I live, that's really common and we are doing that as well right now. Fully funded five twenty nines, and I admitted I was like our five twenty nines right now could not pay for one year if you combined all three of them together, could not pay for one year of Duke University. So not that that's where my children are necessarily going to go or get in, but since my husband and I were there for a while and he was an undergrad there. That's an example school that if we were very lucky and had an academic superstar, we might think about sending them there, but like, we're nowhere near on that path. And also I've noticed my feed has been filled with fancy overnight camp situations with kids going and then the parents. There's this like interesting trope where you're like, oh, I'm so sad they're gone, but you're like, are you really? Are you really really? And then they show a picture of their child water skiing and then the parents are like on a boat in Paris or something. Yes, And I'm exaggerating, but I guess that was my list, Like that was what I came up with. I don't get jealous of designer bags or jewelry or plastic surgery or I don't know, other fancy things. I'm sure Laura's like plastic surgery I want, but I am in South Florida, so you know, it's more of an art form there. But anyway, like that's sort of to me. What I read was like the list of what seems normal but it's so not normal. And then the instagrammers that are showing this stuff like their job is to show an enviable life, so you kind of have to remember that, but it could be hard. Is there one or two of those things that are like the biggest, like oof for you, like the just no? I mean, I guess I feel like we have done a pretty good job in deciding which are the things on that list we want we really care about, and which of them we don't. I think the vacations, because I mean, I think we do have the ability to take some nice vacations, but we certainly haven't spent that much on vacations compared to what I see, and I'm sort of jealous of that when I see that. I don't really care about the cars, but like, honestly, there's something about it where if you keep seeing it, and this is so marketing, right, like our cars work great. There's no reason that my car needs to be like beautiful. It's probably not. Like it's probably one of those things also where like the second you buy it, it would become the new normal and then you wouldn't even care about it anymore. I don't know, and like a child would spill ketchup in it. I mean, that's just inevitable. Oh yes, And of course we would get to like bisc colored seats because it looks so cool, and then yeah, the ketchup would just be ground in forever. Absolutely. Yeah. So I went through it. I thought about, like, well, what are the things that trigger me like going through social media? And it's generally not any sort of consumer items or houses. It's not cars, like the cars for me like just doesn't whatever. I'm driving a ten year old car. I think you are too, but it just like doesn't whatever for me. It's when it's people talking about fun sounding adult social plans. Another one is those large families where the kids are all smiling in photos in their matching outfits and like the mom looks completely put together, like her hair's blow dry and she's got the makeup on, and clearly like you don't get this with like your normal iPhone at home, Like you know that there's more going into this, namely that somebody has been there doing her hair and makeup and taking professional photographs. But of course then you're like comparently like well, why don't my kids look like that the photos, and like they're not willing to get in their matching outfits without massive dress and my hair looks like crap in photos all the time, and I'm like, why why, So there's that vacation photos where people are talking about how relaxing and wonderful their family vacation was. So I was really down this hole after looking at one. I won't say her name. I mean she's a big influencer or whatever, but it was a pregnant mother of five who took her children to a resort and talked about how they had so much fun that her hurt was full. And having in recent times been to a resort with five children, my first thought was like, lady, does your toddler not wake up at four am on vacation and scream in the you know, hotel crib so you have to take them out in the middle of the night so he doesn't wake the neighbors. Like do your kids not splash random other people in the pool who then get really upset about it? Like that didn't happen at your water park experience? Like did your kids not break a plate in the you know, buffet restaurant because they're like, I'll just throw it on the floor and see what happens, Like apparently their children don't do that. Like did your preschooler refuse to eat anything but bread for days, like and okay, so anyway, that was a particular trigger. Sometimes I also get triggered by writers talking about like long stretches, any sort of content creator creator in general talking about long stretches of focused time that they have because their entire family is structured around making sure that they have intense concentration time. And it just so, those are my things, Like you could have a Tesla. You can have the biggest, nicest sports car, like one of those ones I see at the car show that's like a quarter of the million dollars. I don't care if you have that, Like I feel nothing about that, but that you were able to have a calm and serene day with five children at the water park like just makes me feel as though I am living in a completely different universe. Or that you wrote a book by a stream. I wrote a book by a stream. Yes that's true. I'm gonna go write my book by a stream. So having said that, let's take a short break and then talk about what we can do with these feelings of jealousy, Well we are back talking about compare and despair. The frequent upward comparisons many of us tend to make when we look around us, when we look at social media, and how on some level, how silly this is given. I mean, I know many of our listeners have such objectively good lives, you know, lives you would have wanted as a young kid that other people are probably looking at your social media feed and being like, I want that life. So Sarah, what what do you do? Well? And I guess I wanted to, Like, I know, I could see the emails coming already, so I'm just going to head off at the path, like what Laura just said, Like we get it. Like the whole point of this is that we know it's unreasonable, but I think there's a human nature to do this, especially when you're in certain circumstances. So neither of us are sitting here saying, oh my god, what was me? I like, I worked so hard and like where is my freaking Tesla parking lot? Like that is not that was like fully not the post at point, it's where That's exactly it. It's like, well, it's probably circumstances that are driving me and not just me. I think it's much more of a sort of natural human thing. Although again I love how Laura and I have such different triggers. I think that's really fascinating, and I urge you, as you listen to this to maybe dig deep down into what your triggers are, because maybe that will help you figure out what matters or what are things that you can do things about. But I guess the two things that came out to me were avoiding all those aspirational things on social media because they are kind of toxic in that way. I actually don't follow that many like humans on social media anymore. The most accounts that I look at are planners, like pictures of planners, and that's pretty harmless. Like if I get really jealous of someone's planner, I could buy it for fifty dollars and like, we get all. It's an easy way to solve that problem. Yes, we can all move on with our day. Although sometimes I do get jealous of people who have like amazing artistic abilities, but that's that's okay. It's still fun to admire them. So I think it's what you're looking yet, And if you if for myself, if I can't like get certain people off my feed, then I like that's I guess I'll admit, like I don't look at my the underscore shoe Box feed because that has more like actual people on it. I'm more am like, if I'm going to scroll, I try to choose the shoe Box Plans one because again I'm just looking at paper and pens and stuff, and it seems a lot less harmful. So I think your social media diet has a big influence, and then it's who you're around. So Laura mentioned that we're in a high cost of living area, but you know, interestingly, we were in a much higher cost of living area. Miami Beach was another world. And I will say, compared to like the Broward County where we live now, it's probably similar Laura to like you being in Manhattan versus being in like Philly suburbs. Like where I am now is still extremely nice, but it doesn't have that like where people are actually like regularly living those Instagram looking lives, you know, debt or not, I don't know. And I will say that when we moved, my desire to spend on certain things went down. Like in Miami Beach, I felt I had to hire multiple performers for a kid's birthday party like that that was normal. I had to show up in like a really cute outfit. Oh I didn't always succeed with that one because my kids also spit on whatever I'm wearing and whatever. But then we'd have like, you know, a face painter in this and that, because that was like the baseline and that was what you did. And now people are much more simple and reasonable, and so we're like, oh, let's have your next birthday party at our pool where we live. And I think it costs like two interbucks to rent the thing, which is, you know, still a lot of money. But I don't even want to tell you what I used to spend back in the day that was normal. So I think that looking at who you're surrounding yourself with. Interestingly, I listened to a podcast today in the car that was from the Money Meets Medicine podcast that talked about how your spending habits were highly influenced by the people that you spend time with. But I had come to that conclusion as well. So your locale, your friends. It doesn't mean you can't want our best One of our really best close friends have Tesla's, So that does not mean I don't want to hang out with them. I always want to hang out with them. But you know, just your general circle of friends and your area can make a difference. Yeah, I think you know obviously that reminding yourself of the good things that do go on is helpful. And even if it helps to say that, yes, you are probably the object of someone else's upwards social media comparison, and so you can take with that what you want. I think it does help to recognize that everyone does make tradeoffs. I mean, maybe not like Jeff Bezos, but like almost everybody. I'm talking people with very high combined six figure income households, entry levels, seven figure households. There's always going to still be trade offs at that level because it's still it's not enough for everything that you listed on there. But it's also possible to sort of like confine the trade offs to certain things that are less important to you. So I know that people Sarah's wonderful about talking about specific numbers, but she put out there at one point that she spent like seven percent of her income on housing. Now there are a lot of people who spend thirty percent of their income on housing, So that is twenty three percent that Sarah has four other things that many people would be like, well, how could you do X Y or Z, it's like, well, because she's not spending twenty three percent of her income on the house, she's doing other things with it. In our case, moving from New York City to the Philly suburbs was huge, not just being able to have more space for the same amount roughly of what we were paying for housing, but you know, lower taxes, lower cost of living, being able to send our huge number of children to our very high quality local public schools. That not only the time savings of not having to apply to private schools, but then the amount that it costs to go there is pretty pretty well if you are in a place where you need to do that, and I mean you know there there are definitely some good public schools in New York City, but it's a lot more complicated to make sure that your kids can go to them. And that's a whole different subject. We don't need to go into that, suffice to say, it is wonderful to live in an area where our kids can go to schools that are within five minutes of us and that are awesome. So that is a huge savings. Again, the amount that we don't have to spend on that could pay for a lot. I still drive a ten year old car, but if I wanted a nicer one, I probably could get it. But anyway, and then it helps me to recognize that what you were saying, these influencers are in many cases being paid to say what they are saying. So this lady is not posting about her resort just because heck, wasn't it fun to take my kids to resort. The resort hired her to go say that they had a great time there, Like, I don't know what that involved. Maybe each kid got their own staff member for the day to make sure they had a good time, which I can tell you if I had that, it would have been a lower key experience for me. I would have sat in the cavana with my drink all day long and then my heart would be full. Maybe they had their resort photographer take all the pictures and that's why they look so incredibly perfect. Yeah, well so these people, I mean, they're talking about how they're moms just like you, They are not moms just like you. They have a production staff following them around to make sure that their kids look like they're polished and mom looks great, and that they're having an amazing time selling whatever these products are that they are partnered with, which is awesome. I mean, I have full time childcare, I have help with marketing my business. But let's just be honest that that is an economic thing that's happening. It is a commercial enterprise. It is not just mom snapping photos with her iPhone. I also, you know, it helps to dig into the jealousy to see exactly what it is that most triggers me, because then possibly I can do something about it. And I could see from my list one it is that I have a toddler and a demanding job, and hence I feel I am not I feel like I'm not getting enough relaxing time, and I would really like more time where I could just relax. Okay, good to know. You know, it's a lot of work to manage the logistics of five kids, and I wish more of that would happen without me. I get tired of looking like crap. I would like to, you know, look better, or take better photos or things like that. I would like the people around me to take my job seriously, and they often do, but sometimes they don't, and so then you know, I think about, well, what can I do about these things, and it might be getting a little bit of extra help with Henry on the weekends, for instance, which is definitely something we are doing, recognizing that I can do more social stuff. If I'm jealous of people's adult social plans, I should go make adult social plans. Set better boundaries about, for instance, driving my kids places. That part of having childcare is that I don't need to do that. Obviously, my kids would like me to more often than not, and sometimes I will. It's a good way to talk to preteen and teen kids is to get time in the car, But you don't have to do that every single day. And I don't know, maybe I need to hire one of those professional Instagram photographers to follow me around and you know, a style crew will stay tuned on that. Maybe then your next vacation could be free. And then I don't know, I don't see you going down that. I'm just a low maintenance in general. Like the idea of wearing uncomfortable clothes like or uncomfortable show, I'm just like I couldn't deal. I could not deal. So I don't think my kids would be on board with that either, Like I think they'd be like Wow, most families, like we can do this in twenty takes, but for you guys, we're up to like four hundred and we can't get more than two out of the three smiling. So we get this exactly exactly. So yeah, there we go. That's how we deal with our compare and despair. I'm going to get more glamorous photographs taken and post them on social media, and I will add like, so the other thing that I wrote down that I forgot is to remember that there's absolutely nothing to despair about. That number one what Laura said, some things you can actually do something about. Funny, you know, like, yeah, I can't have the whole, but like I can think about what's important to me and make sure that like things are being allocated appropriately. But also like think about how freaking lucky we are and like how great our lives are and how much harder it could be and how it is for many many others. So I think that is a super important part of the equation as exactly. And maybe you know, even just at the end of the day, thinking through like the good things that did happen, right that yes, there were rough moments here there everywhere, No children and matching outfits, but like went for a trail run and had a good dinner or various other things that just could be awesome in a normal day, and thinking of those at the end of the day can help, you know, make you feel more content, which is what it's all about. So let's move to the question, Sarah, can you read this one because this is in your Apple notes that somehow didn't transfer to my printed script. Yes, yes, all right. This comes from we'll call her A and she says, curious, how you manage or plan for overtime or unexpected extra work that comes up in your professional lives? Do you build in time in your schedule to account for this or simply have more of a line drawn in the sand for how many hours you are willing to work each week? I struggle with planning for the unexpected at work while also knowing when to say no. Any advice is greatly appreciated. And I will add that we did not plant this because this is a very Laura question. But this is a real send in questions that they think they might want me to answer. I mean, well, I mean so I want to hear Sarah too, because I mean, partly I can give an answer I can say with my own life. One of the things of working for yourself is that over time you can learn to stay away from situations that are highly likely to generate extra hours. And that's sort of an experience matter of like how you see certain clients are a lot worse than others. Over time, you either make sure you are paid enough to compensate you for the amount of pain that those clients are going to inflict upon you, or else you move on to other people that are more aligned with your vision of the universe. It's obviously a little bit harder when you're working in a normal W two sort of job, although again there too. As you move around in an organization, you often learn that there are certain situations that are better for this than others. And it has a lot to do with who your manager is. And if your manager is on top of her game, then there isn't a whole lot of unexpected overtime because she has figured out this needs to happen for this step. This needs to happen for this step. This is what we'll do if we get behind here. The only reason it happens is if there is a true crisis and then you love your boss enough that you're willing to do it right, so you want to go work for that person. Now you may not currently be working for that person, so then it's like, well what do you do? You know, I'd say look at your schedule and say, well, where are the places where I could most easily put some additional work hours if I chose to do that. For me, it's adding in that split shift after the baby goes to bed, So if he's down seven forty five, I could work from seven forty five to eight forty five between, you know, before the other kids need to start moving up toward bed. That's an extra hour there. There might be another half hour after those kids go to bed. There could be some weekend time, you know, trade off with your partner, like each of you gets one early morning shift to work or an afternoon to work if you want to do that. Again, not driving, get some of the activity driving off your plate, and that opens up time for things too. That can give me about five to eight hours per week. Taking those options pass that, it's a lot harder, and I'd either have to push other things forward or decide that that's my line in the sand. So maybe you can identify where those places are and say, like, Okay, it's relatively painless to add another five hours. I don't want to, but if I have to, I can past that. We need to start having a really good discussion about why this is happening and whether somebody's expectations are off. I mean, it might be your expectations are off, it might be your organization's expectations are off. But managing it. Having that conversation so that you can get clearer on what really needs to happen, what doesn't, and whether you need to start pushing back a little bit, or if that's not going to be a possibility, if you need to start looking around for a different situation. Yeah, this is such an interesting question to me because I feel like I don't have this happen that often. I do have it happen sometimes. It happened a couple months ago, I was about to go on vacation. I was asked to serve on this very time intensive committee that was really important. I kind of had to do it, and I guess in that situation, I push things forward. And the thing is you have to have built enough buffer that you're able to do that, which is usually something that you have more control over. I may not have had control of that emergency that was placed on me to deal with. But let's say I knew I had to submit something to the governing board for a GME, and it's due August twenty seventh. Well, I don't want to plan that I'm going to do that on August twenty fifth, because then if I get something emerging on August twenty fourth, like it's an armagedon. But if I'm like, oh, I'm going to be two weeks ahead of that, then pushing it forward is not that big a deal. So I think I naturally, because in the nature of my job is that some things probably are going to come up. I try to stay away so that there's like a little bit of like accordion, like I can stretch and compress, and then that also gives me the opportunity to add in things when I am ahead of the game. So I guess I don't know if that's really answering your question, but I think that some of this can be solved with your own proactivity and kind of planning for the unexpected when it actually comes to like concretely, what have I done in like a really emergent situation. Two options. Number One, you can say no sometimes. I mean, if there literally aren't enough hours in the day and somebody's asking you for something like the next morning and you have no childcare and you'd be up all night and like it just you could just be like, you know, unless someone's going to be hurt or something like, I'm sorry, like this time is not feasible, please ask me next time. I'm happy to do it with a bit more lead time. So that's one option, potentially, depending on the nature of your job. And the other is just pushing everything else aside and getting up at like four in the morning and cranking some stuff out, depending again how big this theoretical job is. So those are just some of my Yeah, I think it helps to keep track of your time. Many of the people I know, a lot of our listeners are not in fact getting paid by the hour. I mean, this woman referred to it as overtime, so maybe she is, which is a different scenario. Then you're probably getting time and a half for it, which may be worth it in some cases, and then other cases not. Somebody else might want the time because they are looking to make some more money, and so you could figure that out if you have colleagues who are more interested in that. But for many sort of salary jobs, it's just so hard to know, like what is the actual expectation of ours? How much are people working usually? How much are you working usually? So it helps to get a sense of that, because if you thought you were taking a forty hour week job and it is always logged fifty, that's something you need to deal with in either on your side or their side. However, if three out of four weeks it is forty hours and then one week out of four it's fifty, well maybe that's something you can just sort of say, okay, well that's yes, we maybe a little more than I wanted, but it's only once every month, so I can probably deal with that. But it helps rather than catastrophize that over time on that week, keep it in perspective, but you want to know what you're working with. That makes sense, and actually that could benefit twofold, right, because you can have the understanding to yourself. But also if you're like, oh my god, I just actually did work for sixty hour weeks in a row, that's when you can if you have a record you could have some objective piece to perhaps show your manager and say, listen, I'm working my butt off and I'm still working this much. It looks like I may have to delegate something. Maybe I need an assistant or whatever it is. So I could see how that could help kind of for yourself, but then also potentially to give it to somebody extrame exactly. All right, Well, let's do our love of the week. Since we were talking about social media earlier, I'm going to say that I love looking at miniature furniture, like dollhouse furniture on Instagram. Now, on some of that that could be like why am I not creating some gorgeous dollhouse? But I don't actually really feel that way. Now that I can look at the pictures of other people doing it, I feel like I don't really need to put that into my life right now. I'm enjoying their pictures. So maybe my entire Instagram feed should be miniature furniture as opposed to other families' fun days at the resort. Maybe that would make me feel better. How about you, Sarah, It's like your miniature furniture is my like, yes, exactly, it's perfect. Well, I have a love of the week slash tip for everybody. If you use Apple Notes, you can take a screenshot and follow it directly into your Apple Notes. So when Laura said today's question somehow didn't make it into her thing, Oh, it's because I think I sent it to her after the fact. You can see that mine got pasted very nicely into this email and the only reason I was able to keep to I used to struggle with the Instagram questions in particular because I felt like I had to transcribe them and that took a lot of time. But now I just hit screenshot, save it in my Best Both Worlds question file and Apple Notes, and I'm much much less likely to lose them. So that is a great thing that I didn't know you could do. It's wonderful. All right, Well, this has been best of Both worlds. We've been talking about comparisons, the compare and despair phenomenon and what we can do about it. We will be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.