The Private World of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy | Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel #359

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for joining me today on Miss Understead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd go at you.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I am lucky enough to be a very good friend of yours and you of me, but you know it came to my attention just recently of how good a friend you were with Carolyn Besett Kennedy and John Kennedy Jr.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And everyone has been watching love story.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is such an incredible docu-series so far because we grew up in the 90s in New York watching this happen in or I did in the paper.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I grew up watching it too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and it was to to rewatch it through this docu-series.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's fascinating because you remember like
[SPEAKER_04]: the how minimal is like the minimalisticness or whatever you remember what you were wearing and how you wanted to be that right and how Calvin Klein was all the rage and it was just so chic and she was the
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And do you?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel about it?
[SPEAKER_00]: To be honest with you, I was a little apprehensive at first because frankly I was very close to her and I knew him pretty well and I felt that I was going to hate it and I've actually enjoyed watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a cry to the whole thing which I thought I would do so.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pretty good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's actually get right into that because you knew them very well.
[SPEAKER_04]: How did you know them?
[SPEAKER_04]: What were you doing in New York at the time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Back in the 90s, I worked at Cartier in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in the High Jewelry Department, which meant basically that I was selling the big jewelry.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't know Carolyn at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: She came into the store, you know, black and white Protestant, very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: She walked in, I was kind of the head salesman.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would watch over the boutique girls.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she walked into the main boutique, and I saw her, and I just stood there on the next level, watching down.
[SPEAKER_00]: and she took out of her backpack this box with a watch and that didn't exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew the watch because I'd been to Paris recently, talk to the executives and I knew this watch was being launched, but I'd never seen it in a person except for the prototype.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I swooped down and took it away from the sales broker because she was clueless.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I brought her into my little office off the main gallery at a little
[SPEAKER_00]: was a re-paneled French, you know, of course little room, eight by ten, and I sat her down, and we instantly became friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved her the moment I met her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not, I never heard a caramel beset.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't my thing to follow that stuff, normally.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know who she was.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, at the time was she already in the papers?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she was already in the papers, but...
[SPEAKER_00]: to be honest, it wasn't my thing to follow her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was more interested in him personally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's showing on some, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you would see the papers about him dating Darrell Ham.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then maybe this new girl didn't really register her back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it registered, but it wasn't like I wasn't paying intentions like another girlfriend, John, who cares.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, next, you know, anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: And for people that are listening that don't remember, we were in the post seeing every day how he didn't pass the ball.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: came to fruition and like that whole thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember a lot about the bar.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember a lot of photographs.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a bag.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was always running around town and his bike, you know, with his soup pant rolled up and his back has had on backwards his cap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was trying to be a normal guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he tried really hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always appreciated that he and I were in boarding school at the same time, competing schools.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you would hear stories about him and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Terrible.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you became instant friends with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we can really.
[SPEAKER_04]: How did she get this watch?
[SPEAKER_04]: What was this watch?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: She and John went to a party in Geneva.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were invited to a dinner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you're invited to a dinner, you assume that it's
[SPEAKER_00]: a dinner, an intimate dinner.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was like 500 people there.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were mortified because they hadn't really been out in about that much.
[SPEAKER_00]: At that point, this is early 1996, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember the exact day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I met her was April 18th, 1996, and I know that because I wrote in my diary, I met this beautiful human named Carolyn Bezet, and she's so ethereal, and I had all these notes about her.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when you met her, what made her stand out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, she had a watch that didn't exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was solid gold.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was freaky, because I didn't even have stock numbers yet for her.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I just- But she must have been somebody that had access.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is why I thought, oh, this is somebody put her in the private room, shut the door and get to know her because that's how I made my money back then, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: I asked her, what do you want to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, this is a solid gold watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to wear this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not my style.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need something really simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's something that's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been quiet for 26 years, 30 years, whatever it is now, yeah, it's 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been quiet all this time, and I'm finally finding my voice to talk about her because I was keeping her,
[SPEAKER_00]: close to me by keeping my mouth shut, and I was keeping our friendship quiet because I didn't think it was appropriate to come out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so she brought in the watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: The watch was gold.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a gold tank front says, which is now still very popular released years later, and she said she wanted something simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got her a sterling silver,
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the what she's seeing wearing everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not Jackie's watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not Prince Radywell's present to Jackie, or any of those watches that were tank watches.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't even the tank watch that JFK gave to Jackie when Patrick was born, who died a few days after birth.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the watch I sold her that she's photographed and nobody knows that and everybody's been writing and all these blogs about her watch it's crazy like there's one thing on it's called the two misses on Instagram and it's like a thousand people written to me about this watch I chimed in and said hey I sold to that watch it was silver it wasn't gold it wasn't jackies it was hers wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what was she like though because there's so much mystery around her right there's the version that people know from working with her and then the version that after she's with john she's very very much her world really closes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Although it seems like it was sort of closed before john so can we can we talk about her personality and her look and all that stuff she was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how to describe it, but she was ethereal.
[SPEAKER_00]: She could walk into a room and stop traffic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not because she was the most beautiful person in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, she had an aura about her instantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what attracted John to her, also I believe, that she had that journalist say, quote, that's something special, that everybody wanted and wanted to know her because of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the way they portray her so far in the series is that she's playing these games, you know, that where she's trying to play hard to get, did she have that kind of confidence?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, well, she was confident, but I don't think she played games with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she was scared to death of him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I mean, she dated Guy who's a model.
[SPEAKER_00]: She dated some pretty important people that wasn't it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was always kind of lazy fair about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've talked to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had talked to her about all these dates before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were meaningless.
[SPEAKER_00]: When John came around, I think it's scarier to her.
[UNKNOWN]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know what really scared her was the paparazzi and being in his life.
[SPEAKER_00]: She almost didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And John never gave her the time to get to know that life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't a gradual thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was thrown to the dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where I came in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was there in the beginning, basically.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what people don't know, and it's funny you brought this up, because I forgot.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we talked about this briefly at dinner.
[SPEAKER_04]: I dated Michael Bergen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Michael Bergen was, people might know from Baywatch, but when I met him, I met him at Foxwood's casino.
[SPEAKER_04]: We were both playing Polk or Blackjack.
[SPEAKER_04]: He asked me out and him and his friend, his friend Sam was BJ.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was stunning.
[SPEAKER_04]: stunning I had very blonde hair back then also still stunning and I was very young and they and B. J. and him came up to me and they were talking to me and I had freckles on my nose and he says your freckles like Carolyn and I didn't know who Carolyn was and then B. J. later I started dating Michael and B. J. later told me that Carolyn was his ex-girlfriend who had left him for JFK Jr.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't, you know, I think there was a lot of overlap.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a lot on on on on there was overlap with him and there was overlap with Darrell Hannah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why there was overlap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was happening at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And rightfully so they weren't connected, you know, permanently to either one, so why not?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had room, I remember being in his apartment and he broke up with me saying he was offered a job in LA that he was going to, which ultimately became Baywatch.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I will tell you as somebody who dated him
[SPEAKER_04]: really liked him.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he was a nice guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: We didn't date for long.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was enamored with her, and was heartbroken that they had broken up, and it was hard for him to look at the paper because that was what was in the paper.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in his apartment, he had a huge bird cage.
[SPEAKER_04]: I forgot about it until this moment that I'm telling you that he told me she had given him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know what that connection was or whatever, but they must have had a bird together or like the bird cage or I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, I don't know anything about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was my only connection to them.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, to her and whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So and I think they talk about her dating a guy named Mike in the the first episode of something.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is Michael Burger.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I must have passed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because the timing is right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, so, okay, so let's go back to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she is this amazing beautiful girl and how do you become friends?
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you start spending some time with her?
[SPEAKER_04]: It was strange.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she would call me up at Cardi A and say, hey, what are you doing for lunch?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go to lunch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to lunch with Carolyn Bissette Kennedy what she wasn't Kennedy then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the paparazzi was stalking her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a safe place for her to come to Cardi A because the guards would protect her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would protect her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'd come in in a cloak of craziness, you know, with her big sunglasses on and, you know, hunched over.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no one would see her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's six feet tall and blonde and gorgeous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, people are going to see her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she would ride the subway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone thought that that was just a once in a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think, no, it was a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would ride the subway lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she would come in.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd go to the Omni Berkshire across the street on 50 second street.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a place called Kokoshen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the restaurant was.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would face the wall.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would face out.
[SPEAKER_00]: The place was always empty and the the guy at the desk at the door knew That who she was instantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like Keep everybody away right so you're protective.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was very protective her right from the beginning and she loved me for that
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you feel like she had a lot of close friends?
[SPEAKER_04]: Or she was very, like you became a close friend very quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, and it was on, I mean, my sister had died that December, let's see, December of 95.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, somehow, she was very compassionate for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had just come back to work after months away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,
[SPEAKER_00]: It was interesting to meet somebody that was not only ethereal, but so compassionate.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wanted to know everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was the kind of person that you could be in a room with 500 people, and she'd be talking to you, and you were the only one that existed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very rarely do you see people, people able to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all about love.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was able to draw people, and she never lost eye contact with you when she was talking to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people see her always with her head down.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true because she was trying to avoid everybody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so back to the watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: She got the tank watch, she left, but she would come back and see me all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd go out for lunch, I'd go down to their apartment and hang out, and then... Well, she had a big spend, or did she come in and spend all the time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, she had a big credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, then it was probably $11,000 or something, and the little tank watch was $1,000.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, she had a lot of money to spend.
[SPEAKER_00]: She came in, bought a strand of pearls for me, which has been photographed before in a little black dress.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can see her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She bought toe rings for her and Carol Radsie will, so that's John's cousin, his wife, Radsie will's wife's Carol, and Carol people know from the housewives?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, which I never watched, but I have been in contact with her about the toe rings recently, because she went, the whole crazy story, she went to a psychic about it, and it came up about the toe rings,
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I was there for these weird moments in her time and she did tell me about the wedding, because I sold her, I think, cufflinks.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was for Anthony Brad too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, not Anthony Brad too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as the best man he wore them, I believe, in the wedding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I knew about the wedding, she told me she wished that she could invite me, but she only had a certain number of people she could bring because it's such a small place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understood.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't, you know, I wasn't in the family, so what did I need to go for?
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of which.
[SPEAKER_00]: the one day in May.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's like a month after I met her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She brought her, she came in, I had already met her mother for some reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: She brought her mother into meet me one day and whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think her name was Anne, Anne Friedman.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she came in around Mother's Day and she said, guys, show me what you would buy for your mother for Mother's Day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I picked out a pair of earrings
[SPEAKER_00]: And there were little three gold, you know, Cartier rolling ring earrings, and she bought them for her mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that day she walked from Cartier to Sutton Place where I lived, gave it to the door man and said these are for guys' mother for Mother's Day because she just lost a child.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the kind of person she was that nobody knows.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody thought she was some kind of cold bitch, but she was so compassionate and so kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she never met my mother, which is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so sorry, that made me like tear up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it makes me tear up 30 years later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, after the wedding,
[SPEAKER_00]: She called me up and she said, guy, I had this horrible jewelry that John gave me as a wedding gift, that Ari, Anassus, gave Jackie for their honeymoon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you do something with it?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, okay, she called me at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is, she had my, you know, on my home number.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was before cell phones, even though it was 1996, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess so, yeah, 96, 97 and somewhere in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I went down to their apartment on Northmore and I remember the day because I know the day because I sketched the outlay out of their apartment in my diary because I wanted to remember where the furniture was because we talked about John had these weird kind of behavior and shares and all this stuff anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I go down there we went through the wedding albums.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the first person to see the wedding album.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of beautiful pictures.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean things that no one's ever seen I can remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she brought out this jewelry, and it was a pair of earrings, and a pendant.
[SPEAKER_00]: The pendant was about 15 carrots.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is 18.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a big diamond in a really clunky white, white metal mounting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a pair of earrings, each with four diamonds, apparently.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this clunky, badly made white metal mounting.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, what do I do with this?
[SPEAKER_00]: So...
[SPEAKER_00]: I sketched out some things for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said this big thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you're going to do with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're never going to wear this.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, well, you take it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, I don't want this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't need this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to wear it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I went back to Cardi A and sat down with the design department and told them what I wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went in the three stone ring, a pair of studs and three pendants, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Went for her, went for her, each of her sisters.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I tested the diamonds and they didn't test as real.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, what the hell?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I called her, I said, Carolyn, I'm sorry, so we need these are not testing as real.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a guy just threw them away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, I said, before I throw them away, can I take them out of the mountains and try to test them again?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because something tells me something's wrong with the way they look.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, I don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I opened up the mountains and retested the diamonds and they're all like deflawless.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were set in lead and plated with something and that made them fast at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't test his diamonds.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Ari must have done this to get through the tax, you know, around the interest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: You brought up her sisters.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now we all know about the one sister that died, Lauren.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't even know there was another sister, so who was the other sister?
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you ever get to meet?
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never met the other sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was not that close to anybody in her family.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she was in a sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they weren't there going through what she was going through right like someone like me who was an outsider was great and fresh because I didn't have any preconceived notions of her or demands on her so I was an expecting her to be anything you know I'm saying yeah of course family would anyway that's a good something to show okay show me so Carolyn after she after she picked up her stuff she ended up giving me one of the diamond necklaces.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it doesn't look like a big deal, but for a de-flowist, one carrot diamond, it's still in this original box.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I've had this for 30 years, 30 years sitting in a bowl.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I want to go back to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You were talking about their apartment.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, people are going to want to know, what was your apartment like?
[SPEAKER_04]: How many bedrooms?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, New York real estate is a big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is gorgeous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, she gave us, so my mother wore this for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and now my mother's 102, and she really doesn't need big jewelry anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that this is big, but she shouldn't be in a home with, you know, sorry, Carolyn's time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so her apartment was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: You went in, and there was no dormant on a north more, and took an elevator right up to the apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It opened right in.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you think that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Made an ever dormant?
[SPEAKER_04]: Did they have security?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they didn't have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you buzzed in.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I feel like now wouldn't you think Secret Service follows former presidents children?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure they didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think he cared.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he felt safe and it was not an issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: But remember, down in Tribeca, back in 1996, nobody lived there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was no man's plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you drove, there was no traffic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you got off the apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a couple bedrooms to the right one was effigenios who was their houseman who was Jackie's houseman that raised
[SPEAKER_00]: Caroline and John, okay, effigenium, I think they called them EG or something and I think you'll hear that in that in the show, right And you're wondering who the hell that is it was effigenium the houseman.
[SPEAKER_00]: I met him once Maybe more than once I forget anyway, so it opened up in the elevator and you turned to the left and
[SPEAKER_00]: The dining room and living room kind of flowed together.
[SPEAKER_00]: The kitchen was on the right.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was like a den area off the kitchen and then back further facing south was their bedroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: I walked into the bedroom the first time and there was no drapes and no shades.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: You two are the most famous couple in the world and you have no shave on your bedroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're performing for the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Carol was there for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just faced South.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was nothing really South of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what's there now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there's buildings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a step.
[SPEAKER_00]: But.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you had been up, you'll look at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could have a great end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Field day watching them.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was, it had like three to four bedrooms at least three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And seemed what like 3,000 square feet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's a big apartment, especially for back that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there was another, there was another famous actor that bought that apartment after they died.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: It would be interesting to find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have something important to tell you about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when they died,
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I didn't believe it, because John and Carolyn had moved down to Viro Beach, Florida, to take flying lessons for John at Flight Safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I grew up wintering in Viro Beach, my whole life.
[SPEAKER_00]: My parents had a place there, my great uncle and his wife had a place there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like a native son, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually had a condominium next to my parents on the ocean.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. John and Caroline rented a house down the street.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, since, you know, Carolyn had been kind enough to get my mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, mothers they gift, I connected them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they would write to each other and all this stuff crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, when they died, no, actually, I'd take that back.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I went to the apartment the first time my mother's notes and her Christmas cards were still on the refrigerator And she said that's my virubić nana So imagine when they died they probably thought who the hell is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so They were down the street of virubić.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was working at the time So I wasn't there a lot, but I said I connected her with my mom and they were supposed to hang out all the time because John was gonna be flying What was Caroline gonna do all day?
[SPEAKER_00]: So my mother had the intention of taking her out and showing her the town and introducing her to people and you know going to lunch and all those kind of things But then like a week or two later John's cousin died in a skiing accident.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember that you ran into a tree?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember which cousin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I forgot to go right so they left abruptly and fortunately and Carolyn brought me a letter about
[SPEAKER_00]: his flying, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And talking about, sorry, I couldn't see your mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had to leave abruptly into this, you know, tragedy in the family.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't know that he moved somewhere to get flying lessons.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did he then resume them back in New Jersey or whatever day?
[SPEAKER_00]: No problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: He never finished his instrument rating for flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he did not know the instruments.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're flying in fog or rain or at night, if you don't know the instruments.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, and also there's the feelings you get when you forget what it's called, but when you're flying and you don't know with the proximity to the earth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Terrible that I can't remember the name of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can either, but I get that.
[SPEAKER_00]: My parents were both pilots.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I sister my brother, step by the repilot, so private pilots.
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew the airport.
[SPEAKER_00]: We kept our plane there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, all right, let's what we're going to get to that in a minute.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just want to go back to a little bit before as people are watching this show.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We see that they've been dating and we finally, you know, the at the beginning we see that they just start to get into it and there is a big breakup because of an anonymous letter.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you ever hear about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: minimally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and I heard about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even remember who told me about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it was Caroline actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, remember, I came just after that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, after the letter and and after they got back together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_04]: So from your perspective, you don't know much about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But when you met them, they were very much together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know if you were friends with her before after the other big fight that they like to talk about a lot in such a park?
[SPEAKER_00]: The one park?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'll have to look at the dates.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's 30 years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's hard to remember exactly what you were doing.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's not like she talked to you about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, she only speak to you kindly about him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did she ever question the relationship
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, in a way, she told me that he didn't understand that she was so unprepared for public life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he did not understand her hesitation to being part of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was the only problem when she first met him.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the problem that continued through their marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: She really hated being thrown into the limelight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, can you imagine, well, you can imagine a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I happened to me too once in another country where I did a TV show and I was always saying the superstar and it was weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, the difference is though, is that she becomes a superstar adjacent.
[SPEAKER_00]: A Jason.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she leads the hated her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she loses her own identity.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's almost like she has no credibility as her own person.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's the narration of what people see.
[SPEAKER_04]: So lucky for her, she was attractive.
[SPEAKER_04]: She worked at a company that made gave her some credibility.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was in fashion, and she seemed mysterious.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then there was a bunch of people, and then iconic to some sort of way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then another side of it is people must have hated her because they were like, who is this woman off the street?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that she got the most eligible man in the world so hot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, who is this girl?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of bizarre.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and Darrell Hannah at the time was the biggest star.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was huge.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think she had already done What was it mermaid?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no splash flash.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Yeah, it was it was cute and But I will say that Carolyn I would like Carolyn more than her Hannah of course, but he has a tight I mean they're very dumb.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, definitely has a tight Okay, go back to our personality a little bit more because I'm curious Because she is so mysterious.
[SPEAKER_04]: Was she funny?
[SPEAKER_04]: Was she smart?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, she thought, I mean, she was obviously thoughtful about the thing with your mother, but thought for like, did she like to talk to you about deep conversation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would come in and I put her in my little office and we, I would forget that cardiac existed and everybody knew not to bother me when she was in the store because, you know, people would come in the king of so and so and all these famous people, whoever it was, just forget about it, let the manager take care of it and you know, I'll take care of it,
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was my person, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's funny is, it's very much the same as when I'm first met you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I walked up to you and said, I don't care what you did before today or who you were.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're my friend starting right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did the same thing with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember that guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, only two times I've ever said that to anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so she was very thoughtful, of course, as you know, but highly intelligent and very insightful.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a part of her that was very girly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she came in one day, all of Flutter because her hair was practically white.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she had a hat on a glass of, and she sat down and she said, okay, is this just too blonde or what?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, what are you going for here honey?
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, I said, is this Marilyn Monroe?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was that white, it was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: It was crazy, because in the beginning of the show, they show her appropriately with a lot of dark roots and just kind of blunder and blunder and blunder and blunder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, at some point, she just goes totally Maryland.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was completely freaked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was so mad at her hairdresser.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she wanted to change.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wanted to know if I have a hairdresser for her, that it could be secretive and all this kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you think that Jackie or John had an influence on how she looked back
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, she never met Jackie.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jackie was also my client.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I didn't realize that they never met.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they never met.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I remember in the scene, so maybe this is incorrect in timing.
[SPEAKER_04]: He says, I wish you could meet my mother, but we're not ready or whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Jackie dies before they even met.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they ever met.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never heard that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, funny thing is Jackie came in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, she died in 94, didn't she?
[SPEAKER_00]: when did you go?
[SPEAKER_00]: 94, 94.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they weren't hot and heavy enough by 94.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting to have Jackie Meet, Carolyn.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's good information then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it seems like four they weren't hot and heavy till basically ninety five ninety six right and so when did they get married.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was in the ninety six ninety six right September nineteen September right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I met that I met her in April now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to go to George all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'd go over there for no reason and just because she would tell me she's coming up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I see her.
[SPEAKER_00]: because what is she going to do at George John when you say George you mean George the magazine yes so they had an office or something what he well it was huge okay cardie was fifty second and fifth and George was on six Avenue and like fifty first street or something so I would go there all the time I would just want to pick up and did he I forget what George is so George magazine was a political magazine
[SPEAKER_04]: But they aim to make it a little bit more sexy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And they put Cindy Crawford on the cover in like a uniform.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was like the big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: How many years did that last for?
[SPEAKER_00]: not long right for maybe right okay so they like that it couldn't continue after he died or couldn't act and it was struggling at the before they died yeah it was struggling and so the interesting thing is I'd go there all the time I'd show up and John would be running back and forth you know through the lobby area where I'm sitting at now you know you can just go up there anyway you had to you know
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, be called up in all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Rosemary Truenzio, the John's assistant, was always there.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was lovely.
[SPEAKER_00]: She always helped me and Carlin were friendly.
[SPEAKER_00]: That Carlin gave her that famous leopard coat that she bought like a thrift store.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was just sold.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rosemary just sold a bunch of that stuff at auction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did very well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of that stuff coming out now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the re-issuing I heard that products supposed to be re-issuing some of the clothes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you hear that?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm wrong, but I heard that there's copies made that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why not?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and you had said just briefly that you had met Jackie O'Nassus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, she was applying to mine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, before you knew Caroline.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, before, because that was 94.
[SPEAKER_00]: She came in to see me right before
[SPEAKER_04]: So what's interesting about her is in this show.
[SPEAKER_04]: They portray her as being very protective of John and not liking anyone he dates, but from what I remember reading about her, she just seemed like the most wonderful soft woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what was she really like?
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, she spoke very softly and with a slight list.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Naomi what really got that right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how she did it because I mean she did a fabulous job.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so funny you say that I heard it almost as like a slight accent.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't I don't know that it's a list.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very gentle list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jackie came in to see me right before she died.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, wasn't right before it was in the 1994.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember the data.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't somewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she brought in a
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing, right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember turning it over and it said Patrick and a date on it like 1964 or 66.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember the date.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought what the hell is this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I got home, I called my mother because she's the omnipotent one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, who was Patrick?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's Oh,
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the son who died after three days.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jackie boarded into service the watch to make sure, and she told me she never wore it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Huh.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, never wear this watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, this is strange, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful tank watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably famous at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know where that watch went.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure Caroline has it somewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's a watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody's ever seen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: So okay, and then what also was John like I mean, here's the interesting thing about John listen we all know him as like the most attractive man Right almost ever seen besides the actor that now Hello, he's going to go places.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, which by the way shows what you married Show's what a good actor.
[SPEAKER_04]: He is though because when you see him like in his Instagram He looks totally different.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wears his hair acting role.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know it's kind of amazing because he does such a good job Really pulling this off, but
[SPEAKER_04]: the interesting thing for me that I see as an outsider is that he was so good looking and to so many people in the show you see how powerful he is.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's the son of you know this famous gorgeous powerful man who is killed and this beautiful woman and all this stuff that happens with Marilyn Monroe and blah blah blah and he's dated famous women but he can't get a shit together in terms of having his own credibility.
[SPEAKER_04]: He can't pass the bar forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: He can't kind of
[SPEAKER_04]: In his head, I think that he felt like he was the fuck up, and Caroline was this straight lace, smart woman married to this smart guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he was like the loser.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I hate to say the loser, but you know, the black sheep, he just lit them together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he cared more about being a normal person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, and I think that comes across pretty well in the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now what's interesting is one of those times that I was in their apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carolyn said to me, I said, ask her about what did she think about him in politics, because she's, you know, just running a magazine that, you know, that was at a low circulation and whatever, wasn't a big deal, but people bought it because of him, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, listen, John told her, so she's saying this to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, John told me that I could
[SPEAKER_00]: go on Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and run for presents to win.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's a line Trump stole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, let's show up now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carolyn told me that in 1996.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, Trump's adopted that, you know, in 2016.
[SPEAKER_04]: So John and her knew that, well, it seems like he knew that he was destined for something and wanted to try his own version.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was trying to be his own man first.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he also knew, but they knew they were going into politics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she would have been the best first lady ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine how the world would be different if those two had, if he had been president and she'd been the first lady, no, my Jew.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's always the the the woman behind the man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, I think that's what would it would have been.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Carolyn would have been the strong force behind him to keep him to keep him on the straight narrow and keep him focused and all that stuff and.
[SPEAKER_04]: Although inside he was built for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he really was.
[SPEAKER_04]: He may not have been, you know, grown up in terms of politics and law, you know, on paper, because he wasn't that good at it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think internally, this was a guy who was built for more and knew it, but wanted to create his own exact, which made it really sad.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is said, because he believed in what he was doing, but didn't follow through.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then see opposite of Carolyn, think about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was exactly the opposite of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't built for this and was forced into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where John is forced into it and didn't want to be really, I don't think he wanted that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a really good point.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you have a lot of letters with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is a time when people wrote letters.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I can't even remember the last time I bought a stamp.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know how much I wrote.
[SPEAKER_00]: I write thank you, now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I did write you a thank you now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still have.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so interesting enough for their wedding gift because of course I knew about the wedding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I kept my mouth shut as I have for 30 years, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought, what am I going to get them?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I called my mother and she said get them engraved stationary with their names on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's an exact this is their stationary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the one you got on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have the engraving plates.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's cardiac.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, of course, it's cardiac.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, go on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no one's ever touched this Rachel, but I can let you touch it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're my girl.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold on.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have clean hands.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, it's taking me a moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So tell me what this says.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the engraving plate that made the stationary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that cool?
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a blank one, which I happen to have because I paid for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the best part is here's the thank you note.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I see her handwriting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, she's so chic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she voted to me at Cartier, even though she knew my home address and those come in later have all kinds of letters from her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that great?
[SPEAKER_04]: So what are the, so now in the stand age when there was no phones, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So you had to get a whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cell phones were minimal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so think about this 1996, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember when cell phones came out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, people had them, but
[SPEAKER_00]: She had one, but she had to change it like all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was in college 1996, so okay, I had a cell phone that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you didn't really know how to use them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would call her a George or a caller at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd call her on herself, but she had to change her number all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know who gave her numbers out.
[SPEAKER_00]: it was weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, I think people still do that to this day, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But the kind of things you guys would write back and forth were what, like, how you were doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see what I can find here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would come into see me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's a note that she would write a my stationary at my desk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was off that day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Read it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dear guy, I stopped in today, hoping you might be in.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your sweet note.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would love to see you for lunch whenever you have some time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Call me and we'll make a time and date.
[SPEAKER_04]: XOXCARLAM.
[SPEAKER_04]: beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes it interesting later.
[SPEAKER_04]: Isn't it interesting that you that you kept these things?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, do you keep every note you ever get?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's weird is, you know, so you meet somebody and you, I said this to you the other day, I did not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember?
[SPEAKER_00]: I said to both you and Dan, and I met each one of you, I knew you were going to be my really good friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have a lot of friends as you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't make a lot of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have time for new
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a rare thing in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: To be bonded with somebody for whatever the reason doesn't matter what the reason is, but to know instantly that you love somebody and you're going to cherish them and support them and protect them.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I felt about her and I feel about you too.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you too.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you told me that she wrote you once about feeling nervous about flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me see if I can find which letter that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have so many here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take your time here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to read this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now this is written to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not in place.
[SPEAKER_04]: You might as well as this.
[SPEAKER_04]: This time I have my glasses.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm always borrowing yours.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it has their address on it says January 10, 1998.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they were married for two years.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was right before they died.
[SPEAKER_04]: Six months before they die, you get this letter.
[SPEAKER_04]: January 10, 1998.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dear guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your lovely card and contribution.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have been so thoughtful and supportive over the last two years.
[SPEAKER_04]: It means a great deal to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope your holiday season, although always difficult, was joyous for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: See you soon for lunch, XOX, Caroline.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's another one.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to read this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a little bit about the flying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mars had been in a safe for 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's ever seen these.
[SPEAKER_04]: March 18th, 1998.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love how she has her address on here.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you know, because it's so private.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dear guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_04]: Was an exclamation.
[SPEAKER_04]: I ran into your wonderful Joey at Chanel the other day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was lovely and so handsome.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyhow, I have been out of town sporadically for about eight weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Currently, we are in Viro Beach, but I've been in Miami for almost
[SPEAKER_04]: The entire first week of our stay, John is working on his private pilot's license and our close friends were just married in South Beach, that's the excursion to Miami.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm leaving this week unexpectedly and we'll not be able to visit your mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope she and your whole family are well and happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll call you when I'm back in New York.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you soon, XOX, Carolyn.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love how she does the XLX, by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always the best thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I've always done too, which is interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to start doing it now myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's probably the only letter she ever wrote that mentions the lines flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also mentions the fact that she had to leave Vera Beach, she didn't say why.
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew why because that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, so I have all these papers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, here's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: a Christmas card, but it's a cheesy Christmas card.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like something fancy for everyone into Dwayne Reed or what do you think of that?
[SPEAKER_04]: 1997, dear guy, have simply the most wonderful Christmas in New Year.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your support and kindness to you soon.
[SPEAKER_04]: XOX, Carolyn.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's talk about as it gets closer to when she dies.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does she start to disappear more or you're still seeing her just as much?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'd be tired from Cardi A.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was, let's see, when did they die?
[SPEAKER_04]: They died July 16, 1999.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I left Cardi A. I think it was June 1999.
[SPEAKER_00]: So right before.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right before.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so what do you leave to do by the way?
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be an interior designer or actually I wrote to Carolyn a letter and I said
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm leaving Cardi A, it was hard at that point at that point in 1999 to get a hold of her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had to do clandess and things, you know, meet at her apartment or go to the restaurant or meet at George, but it was very difficult because she had to get a new phone like every three days.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would write her note.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would write me notes and we'd go back and forth and I wrote her a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I moved up to my country house and I didn't know what I was going to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote a letter saying, I'm either going to be an interior designer or an antique dealer or some combination of the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, perfect thing for some gay guy in this 30s, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I... And you had made some money, a cardigan.
[SPEAKER_00]: I made a lot of money at Cardi A. I'd been there 11 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a top dog for a long time and made plenty of money in had a country house.
[SPEAKER_04]: And now how to good roll-a-ducks of people that maybe you could work on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I sent out 10 letters and I got three jobs immediately.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was on a roll and she and I talked about me doing their house in Connecticut.
[SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to move to Newcayneon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they'd found property and we talked about it and that's as far as we got.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they passed away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was sure that she was like either not on the plane or she was, she somehow escaped it because she couldn't have died.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't thinking about John to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't that close to John only meant him like four times of parties and then the parliament stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wasn't that close to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would never had his phone number.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, wait, I want to get to the moment you find about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hold on, when was the last time you spoke to her right before you think?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, it wasn't the day of, but a couple days before.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, through letter, or you are on the phone, or I wrote it on the phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we talked about Newcayne and me decorating the house, and she wasn't sure what John's thought was, because there was a house next door to me that belonged to, like, the Isley Brothers or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like hundreds of acres, and I had it on his own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Heloport and I said, you guys should buy this house next to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's in the middle of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one will ever find you.
[SPEAKER_00]: John can land a plane.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a private airport, you know, a couple miles away.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a heloport on the property.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one will ever find you.
[SPEAKER_00]: The house is huge and fabulous.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I went and looked at it for them, actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was next door to me, but you couldn't see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was on, I don't know, 20 acres.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was on hundreds and hundreds of acres on the side of a mountain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'd written her all this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the process of writing her all, these things, I said, come up, if you need to get away because there was problems, I knew there was problems.
[SPEAKER_00]: She told me that they were fighting a lot about just stupid stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I think they were fighting about is that she didn't want to be the sidekick in this side show.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a side show.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't see it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was used to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, you know, programmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's what the fight was normally about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all these letters, we wrote to each other almost every day, back and forth, back and forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't save a lot of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a few, but I didn't save a lot of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them I didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you were very close close enough that if somebody saw the letters, it was intimate in terms of you guys were close.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was telling you her feelings.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like she'd been on the plane with him before, but did she ever talk about flying in general or that he told me once that she knew that Jackie didn't want John to take flying lessons.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he ever took one till she died.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can check that, but I think that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so there was all these important letters back and forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they died.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was, I remember it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where were you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was at home on Sutton Place in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought this can't be true, but then I waited for days.
[SPEAKER_00]: And days I thought they would find their floating.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they should be on a raft or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I couldn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_00]: After they died, I went to Savannah on a friend's private plane to look at a house at a mutual friend had bought and was going to need a decorator.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we all flew down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's two couples, a bunch of staff and me on this private G5 or whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I came back from Savannah from the weekend and I had just come in the door and the buzzer ring from downstairs and I answered the phone, you know, and the door man says to me, Richard, blah, blah's here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, oh, must be Richard the chef from my friend that I was house, I just left, right, because he was on the plane or something or he's in the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember where he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I knew the chef lived a block past me and there's all of it within walking distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I said, oh, send him up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I must have left something on the
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the doorbell rings, the answer to the door, not mind you, my suitcase is still sitting in the hallway, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I just walked in the door and there's this big bearded old man standing there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, who are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, I'm Richard, good and now I'm senior editor of the National Enquirer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, holy fuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, you know what this is about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said it has to be about Carolyn.
[SPEAKER_04]: And at this point, they had found her body and you knew she was dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I knew she was, I knew they were dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, okay, come on in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how stupid of me, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have shut the door in the guy's face.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm glad I didn't because it's a reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I let him in and we walk in, we sit down in my living room, which, you know, in apartment was pretty big.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like 40 feet long on certain places.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he sits down, he says, I just want you to know, for, I said, what are you doing here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you want?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, I just want you to know we're going to press with your love affair with Carolyn Bessett.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, what, you know, I'm a gay man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at these pictures.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at this apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a gay man's apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he said, not according to your letters.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I have all your letters that you wrote to her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Isn't that fascinating that she saved them?
[SPEAKER_00]: she saved them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she saved all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he pulled out from this beaten old briefcase, this thick file.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had faxes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, let me see those.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gave me a couple to look at, because I think he was afraid I was going to tear them up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I looked at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew the fax number because it was their apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was their apartment.
[SPEAKER_04]: So who did they gave them this information?
[SPEAKER_04]: E. G. E. E.
[SPEAKER_00]: effigy, no, not in my wildest dreams.
[SPEAKER_00]: He loved John.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he would have done anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, there was a moment in time where it was out in circulation that she had an affair with someone who was probably an antique dealer.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, you can research this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes up.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that bizarre?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that Jesse?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I've kept my mouth shut for 30 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're the antique dealer.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was sleeping with.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that clears the- It clears it all up, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It all up for all the people that really thought she was cheating.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in one, and he had the note that said, I'm either going to be an anti-tiler or an interior designer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it said, in that note, please come up to my countryhouse, get away from John if you need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always here for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you're the outside of reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could look like a lot of anybody reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love her intimately without, you know, I mean, like your best friend, what you would do for somebody, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I always wanted to protect her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why I've kept my mouth shut for 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been protecting her all this time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, what did that feel like when you finally found out that she was on the plane and her sister and John?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, were you angry, were you sad, were you, I mean, obviously you couldn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what's weird is, I consulted a psychic about it because I was traumatized.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was sorry, I'm crying, I was completely traumatized and I just went to the country and just stayed there and grew a beard for a while because I was traumatized.
[SPEAKER_00]: because we had this whole life forward that we had planned about and talked about, you know, him running for president, me decorating their house.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these are like big things in somebody's life, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And to be with you, I mean, we weren't best friends, Carol, Radsiewell, was her best friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was close enough to know intimate things about their life and be part of their life to a point where,
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew I had to protect them afterwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I said to this guy, this editor, I said,
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell you what.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have more important notes from her to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: One even mentions John's flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just saw one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, how about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: When the besets and the freedmen, that's Carolyn's mother and her stepfather.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, when they're done suing the Kennedy's for wrongful death of their two children, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's settled.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will come back to you and I will tell you my truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will tell you the real side of the story and you can use my letters and I'll tell you the real story.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's far more interesting from her point of view than my nobody knows me, nobody cares, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Who cares about guy Clark from Cartier?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, some watchtab.
[SPEAKER_00]: salesmen that's a decorator.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, nobody cares.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you think her side of the story was more like her connection with you was still something normal something that was her own when I'm telling you would have been in the national choir.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, okay, but and he never came back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, he came back
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when it was a year later, so the moment that cleared the next day, my phone rang, I saw it come up, National Inquire, and I picked up the phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, Mr. Goodmau, and he's like, yes, I said, you can go fuck yourself and hang up on him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Never hear it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never heard from him again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's interesting is my client at Cartaget owned the National Inquire.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never told the Popes.
[SPEAKER_00]: that I was involved in that kind of mess, right, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they ever knew.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to the series for a second.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's one more episode that's coming out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, now that this episode is out, uh, it will all the, it'll be five, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a total of five.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think you're speaking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's going to be one more that's coming out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, the series starts with them, um, getting into the plane, do you remember?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we know, well, we obviously know what happens.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we see the sister, we see her, um, she's running late that day.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was getting her nails done or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't just getting her nails done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me.
[SPEAKER_00]: She also went to see her salesperson at burg dors, who was diagnosed with cancer,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know whether she called me and told me that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember how I know that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she was running late, which is what a lot of people say is why they started flying in the dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lauren was also late.
[SPEAKER_00]: I heard this sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was coming from Wall Street.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget, John had his foot in a cast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot what he broke and when something silly like touched the ball or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was in a cast with creches flying a plane.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, you steer with your feet.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know, but there's levers.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are rudders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not easy to steer with a cast on your foot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, who flies with a cast on their foot?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, well, and also not being such a great flyer.
[SPEAKER_04]: And listen, for people that are listening, that don't know the story, it was not a long flight.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was, the sun was going down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: They were running out of time and the tragedies, you know, all these different avenues converged.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: to make it that everyone's running late and there is a time crunch and they need to get there.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a wedding the next day and something she was held up in Friday night traffic.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know right the nightmare right and I remember I guess we all heard the next morning right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean is that when it happened I remember waking up and hearing about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was driving somewhere in New Jersey.
[SPEAKER_04]: I must have been going, I don't know where the hell I was going, but I was in a car and I heard it on the radio.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I heard it on the radio.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought, and they hadn't found their bodies yet, and I thought.
[SPEAKER_04]: Took a long time for the fight.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I thought that can't be true.
[SPEAKER_04]: They must be somewhere floating and they're going to find them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you don't think that this curse is really a curse, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You're like, oh, it happened to a couple of the
[SPEAKER_04]: And to hear the finality of it that they were all found in their seats in at the bottom of the ocean was terrible.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to, you know, it that consumed, I mean me as an outsider.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think everybody you want to know how it happened, why it happened, how far into the flight.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, all those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it didn't seem like they knew too much of what was going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: It seemed like they slowly Ebed into the water and didn't realize it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, My mother, who's a pilot, said that there's no way a person without instrument rating could know how to fly in dense fog Right, over the water.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just no way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's no Think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Over the water, there's no
[SPEAKER_00]: No place.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no markers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no lights.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no markers.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, you might be able to fly over the fog in a a populated area where you can see lights and maybe run away or all that stuff eventually, but there was nothing.
[SPEAKER_04]: But also, you need that horizon.
[SPEAKER_00]: there was no one like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because you don't know when you're turning, I mean, you just have no idea where the horizon is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's that's why that instrument exists because it's so impulsive.
[SPEAKER_04]: I let's are known for getting out of sort.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm really excited is the wrong word.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm I'm looking forward to seeing this last episode because I want to see how they do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that I'm not looking for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, I'm going to watch it, but I'm going to be prepared because I know I have to relive this
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard, you know, for anybody losing a close friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially someone who was in the public eye and that you protected on purpose all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been protecting her personally with all this stuff all this time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if it's hard to because you knew her so intimately, which probably felt really sacred to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And now, I feel like the world is getting to know them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you look on Instagram now, there's, they're all over the place.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody's talking about not only the show, but bringing up older pictures of them and times and moments and videos.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you see memes of girls in the office wearing new outfits right now, pretending to be her and men who, I'm going to dress my, I opened my Instagram today and it was a
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to dress my husband now, like John Kennedy Jr. And then it was this Trump guy who is putting on a tie and girls dressing like her, and it's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's so great, this resurgence of attention.
[SPEAKER_04]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it must make you a little sad, jealous, and great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's just weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just think about the minimalism that they both
[SPEAKER_00]: worked.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they, I mean, think about both of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: John was running around in a t-shirt and shorts most of the time, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a cap.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was always in the most simple product close.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember she came into the store one time and she was all in product and when she came into my office, she said, I said, oh, I'd love this outfit.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's black and white.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all she ever wore or tan and black.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, oh, God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Prada is the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to go into product.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything you want, I'll get for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything you want, and I never went in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would never take advantage of somebody.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was somebody saying, going to Prada, I'll buy you anything you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, she probably got a discount or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: What feels unfair or invented out of the show?
[SPEAKER_04]: Anything to you?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I did see at the beginning of every show, it says, some scenes have been changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, there's a lot of the conversations, of course, nobody knew.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's invented.
[SPEAKER_00]: That guy, whatever his name is, the actor's so
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for John.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He looks like him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he worked out a lot to beef himself up, and he'd get a lot of cushion lessons, all that kind of stuff and acting lessons.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he really worked it out.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that aura, like both of the aura of what they represent, which is hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know if they knocked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: They nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They nailed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are no videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's only one video of them at an event like in Los Angeles together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost no video tapes of her anywhere.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you know that?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I didn't know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why it was hard for the actress to get, I mean, they've been replaying the video tape of them fighting in Central Park.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that was done.
[SPEAKER_04]: And maybe I was going to say there's video for walking out of the door when they get married, but it's not a video.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess it's a still.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a still.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're coming down stairs.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a still.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think at our imaginations we just created.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I went through all those photographs and there's some, there's, there's
[SPEAKER_00]: that sticks out in my head, and I'll just share it with you because I've never told anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ephaginio, the houseman, who raised John, is on his knees, putting cufflinks into John's shirt cuff, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: His shirt is open, so you see his torso and he's in boxer shorts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's looking up at him like, I raised this man.
[SPEAKER_00]: The most beautiful photograph, no one's ever seen it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so if anybody's seen the, that, where was that photograph in their house?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in Carolyn showed me the book, the books when the moment they came out I went through them with her to look at them for the first time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was part of their wedding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a wedding, the wedding album.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anybody who's seen those wedding albums knows that photograph, but nobody else has ever seen it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing that's interesting is she kept scrap books of everything ever written about her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh no way, which I thought was fabulous and I said to her, what are you keeping this for this like so not you she's very commoner Yeah, it's very commoner right like things that I'm saving right and she said no because when we're really old I want to look back at this and giggle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because this might not be funny now, but we're going to want to look back at this later Right god that breaks my heart that she never had that opportunity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, last question for you, what do you want people to remember about her separate from him and separate from the tragedy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a hard question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the most important thing is that she was just a girl that was thrust into the limelight, unknowing, unaware, and
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of unprotected, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She did the best she could.
[SPEAKER_00]: She really tried.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't a drug-fiend.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't an alcoholic, you know, they've tried everything at some point to make her out of this bad person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never saw her that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was always graceful, kind, innocent,
[SPEAKER_00]: but also fiercely smart and intuitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think some of that comes across in the show, but they'll never get the exact person that she is.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing a decent job though.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just, you know, that old saying, only the good day young.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: In one sense, thank God that that's when they died at that moment in time because they will forever be revered and stay young.
[SPEAKER_04]: Stay young, stay beautiful, stay somewhat mysterious, and stay iconic, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, as tragic as it is and how they could have been president and first lady and all these things, you know, they will always be remembered.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is beautiful, beautiful, couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the way I tried to remember them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she's always with me, which is interesting, you know, and I've kept her secrets so long.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope she has some mind now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure now that everyone's talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my turn to let a little bit out to fully know the truth.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they know the real harm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Guy, thank you so much for being here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm going to have you on to talk about other stuff, but this was, you know, so timely.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's so important to let people know who the real Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is because everyone wants to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for listening to Ms.
[SPEAKER_04]: Understood.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm your host, Rachel, you could tell.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Understood with Rachel, you could tell.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's spelled MISS understood.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.