Check In: Curtis Sittenfeld

Pushkin. 0:00:18.850 --> 0:00:20.169 Hi are you ell? 0:00:20.610 --> 0:00:23.770 I'm good. How are you good? Thank you for doing 0:00:24.050 --> 0:00:26.489 the chip or exchange you're now hearing is between me 0:00:26.770 --> 0:00:29.889 and Curtis Sittenfeld, the best selling novelist and author of 0:00:29.970 --> 0:00:33.170 books like Prep American Wife and You Think It. 0:00:33.450 --> 0:00:35.130 I'll say it, nice to see you. 0:00:35.370 --> 0:00:37.930 Nice to see you. Although Curtis and I live in 0:00:37.970 --> 0:00:40.769 the same city, I'm seeing her over a zoom call. 0:00:41.170 --> 0:00:43.170 We sometimes ask guests on the show to talk to 0:00:43.250 --> 0:00:46.130 us from a small closet where the sound quality is best, 0:00:46.690 --> 0:00:49.970 but that isn't the case today. Curtis Sittenfeld is seated 0:00:50.010 --> 0:00:53.970 at her desk, her writer's desk. When I heard that 0:00:54.130 --> 0:00:56.529 we were going to put Curtis Sittenfeld in a closet, 0:00:56.650 --> 0:01:00.370 I was like, nobody puts. That would be a shame 0:01:00.490 --> 0:01:05.649 to all podcasting everywhere. Curtis and I are going to 0:01:05.650 --> 0:01:08.810 talk about her latest novel, Rodham. Right after the break. 0:01:16.490 --> 0:01:20.330 I'm speaking with Curtis Sittenfeld about her novel Rodham, which 0:01:20.370 --> 0:01:22.970 deals with many of the themes that we explore on Heavyweight, 0:01:23.250 --> 0:01:25.810 things like returning to the past to change it and 0:01:25.850 --> 0:01:27.770 the question of what our lives might have been like 0:01:27.890 --> 0:01:31.450 if we'd made one decision Differently, Rodham is a novel 0:01:31.450 --> 0:01:34.570 about what Hillary Clinton's life and political career might have 0:01:34.610 --> 0:01:37.770 looked like if she had never married Bill Clinton. 0:01:40.770 --> 0:01:45.410 So, in real life, he proposed twice and she said no, 0:01:45.730 --> 0:01:48.810 and then she said yes the third time. And I 0:01:48.810 --> 0:01:51.930 imagine what would have happened if she had said no 0:01:52.370 --> 0:01:54.610 the third time as well. 0:01:54.930 --> 0:01:58.290 And that's when the timeline bifurcates. It becomes an alternate history. 0:01:58.770 --> 0:02:01.330 Yes, exactly after. 0:02:01.090 --> 0:02:05.370 Twenty sixteen, it felt like people did not want to 0:02:05.410 --> 0:02:10.530 hear anything more about Hillary Clinton. You had the opposite reaction. 0:02:12.010 --> 0:02:16.769 I wanted to hear four hundred pages more about her. Yeah. No, Well, 0:02:16.810 --> 0:02:22.810 I think that, like it's very strange when she makes 0:02:23.010 --> 0:02:26.250 a public statement or does like a prominent interview, there 0:02:26.330 --> 0:02:30.170 almost always will be this backlash where people will kind 0:02:30.210 --> 0:02:35.169 of say, like go away, and which I don't. It's 0:02:35.210 --> 0:02:39.850 hard for me to think of any parallel that exists 0:02:40.410 --> 0:02:43.410 for a man in the public eye or a man 0:02:43.570 --> 0:02:47.169 who's held public office. You know, like we're almost saying 0:02:47.210 --> 0:02:51.130 like does this woman deserve to exist, does she deserve attention? 0:02:51.290 --> 0:02:54.130 Does she deserve a public voice? And it's kind of 0:02:54.170 --> 0:02:59.609 like that is ludicrous if that's like the starting question. 0:02:59.650 --> 0:03:02.130 I mean, like you don't have to read a book 0:03:02.250 --> 0:03:05.490 she writes or listen to a speech she gives, but 0:03:05.610 --> 0:03:09.410 like she's entitled to write them and she's entitled to speak. 0:03:11.170 --> 0:03:13.090 I don't have strong feelings about any of this. 0:03:14.210 --> 0:03:16.530 Yeah, you know, I was struck in reading the novel 0:03:17.330 --> 0:03:20.090 by the fact that it is written in the first person. 0:03:20.250 --> 0:03:22.810 You know, you are the eye of the novel. You 0:03:22.890 --> 0:03:27.810 are Hillary, And even hearing you talk about her right now, 0:03:27.890 --> 0:03:32.450 it feels like there is this identification that you feel 0:03:32.450 --> 0:03:34.490 with her, and it's almost as though you have a 0:03:34.490 --> 0:03:37.610 certain kind of like, you know, love for her. 0:03:38.330 --> 0:03:42.690 Oh yeah, I definitely do. I mean I've never met her, 0:03:43.570 --> 0:03:48.290 and I think it's relatively unlikely that I will, but 0:03:48.410 --> 0:03:53.370 I certainly respect and admire her, and I feel like 0:03:53.570 --> 0:03:57.250 the person that I think she is based on everything 0:03:57.330 --> 0:04:02.450 I've read, is really different from the public image of 0:04:02.490 --> 0:04:05.890 her in a way that does kind of hurt my heart. 0:04:06.410 --> 0:04:09.330 Hmmm, yeah, yeah, it just I guess it underlines just 0:04:09.370 --> 0:04:12.290 how weird it is to have a public life in 0:04:12.330 --> 0:04:12.970 that way. 0:04:13.050 --> 0:04:15.250 Which I actually think that's one of the things that 0:04:15.290 --> 0:04:19.609 I'm really interested in, where I'm very interested in the 0:04:19.650 --> 0:04:23.330 sort of intimate moments of these really famous people. Like 0:04:23.370 --> 0:04:28.489 it's almost like being interested in what we'll never see, 0:04:28.529 --> 0:04:29.890 what the public never sees. 0:04:30.369 --> 0:04:35.409 Yes, Yes, And I mean, on that note, I would 0:04:35.450 --> 0:04:37.249 like to ask you to read a passage from your 0:04:37.330 --> 0:04:42.529 novel that definitely qualifies as one of those intimate private moments. Okay, 0:04:42.890 --> 0:04:44.929 And I'll just say that part of the pleasure of 0:04:44.969 --> 0:04:48.450 this passage is in imagining the real Bill and the 0:04:48.450 --> 0:04:51.650 real Hillary speaking the dialogue that you've written for them, 0:04:51.690 --> 0:04:54.409 because we have such a strong mental image of who 0:04:54.409 --> 0:04:58.770 they are. So okay, So again, in the alternate universe 0:04:58.770 --> 0:05:02.249 of the book, Hillary and Bill never get married. Bill 0:05:02.729 --> 0:05:08.010 leaves politics to become this rich tech dot com mogul 0:05:08.049 --> 0:05:11.210 in San Francisco, and Hillary goes on to have this 0:05:11.289 --> 0:05:14.850 impressive political career. Yes, And the passage I'm going to 0:05:14.890 --> 0:05:17.570 ask you to read takes place in two thousand and five, 0:05:18.010 --> 0:05:20.849 as Hillary is gearing up to run for president in 0:05:20.890 --> 0:05:23.089 two thousand and eight, and she runs into Bill by 0:05:23.169 --> 0:05:25.969 chance at an event and they reconnect, and a couple 0:05:26.010 --> 0:05:28.610 of weeks later, Bill invites her over for dinner at 0:05:28.609 --> 0:05:32.529 his penthouse. They're both single and Hillary hasn't had sex 0:05:32.570 --> 0:05:35.049 in a long time, and she's excited because she thinks 0:05:35.049 --> 0:05:39.290 Bill has invited her over to sleep with him. Yeah, 0:05:39.570 --> 0:05:43.010 but things don't end up going the way that she expects. 0:05:43.969 --> 0:05:46.570 So you're going to read this passage, and just a 0:05:46.650 --> 0:05:49.369 small heads up for those of you listening with kids, 0:05:49.529 --> 0:05:52.849 there are some bad words, some famously bad words, that 0:05:52.929 --> 0:05:57.409 we are not going to bleep, So without further ado, 0:05:57.650 --> 0:06:01.010 we'll pick it up just when Hillary arrives. 0:06:05.289 --> 0:06:08.690 Bill's apartment was a penthouse in nob Hill. When I 0:06:08.690 --> 0:06:12.210 stepped off the dedicated elevator, which itself was large enough 0:06:12.210 --> 0:06:15.529 to include a bench and fancy enough to include a chandelier, 0:06:16.089 --> 0:06:18.809 I was in a vast open space that led on 0:06:18.890 --> 0:06:21.089 the left to a kitchen and on the right to 0:06:21.169 --> 0:06:24.450 a living room. Straight in front of me were floor 0:06:24.529 --> 0:06:28.570 to ceiling windows overlooking the Financial District, including the Trans 0:06:28.609 --> 0:06:32.169 America Building, and beyond it the San Francisco Bay, the 0:06:32.210 --> 0:06:37.010 Bay Bridge, and Oakland. You made it. Bill approached from 0:06:37.010 --> 0:06:40.089 the kitchen wearing a royal blue apron over a dress 0:06:40.130 --> 0:06:44.729 shirt and jeans. He really was incredibly handsome, tall and 0:06:44.810 --> 0:06:48.929 slim and white haired, with that familiar smile. I set 0:06:48.969 --> 0:06:51.449 my purse next to a red porcelain lamp, and he 0:06:51.570 --> 0:06:53.689 leaned in to hug me and kissed the top of 0:06:53.729 --> 0:06:57.969 my head. Upbeat classical music played in the background, no 0:06:58.089 --> 0:07:00.489 doubt on a state of the art sound system, and 0:07:00.570 --> 0:07:04.450 the sweet smell of something baking filled the air. I said, 0:07:04.609 --> 0:07:08.010 quite a view you've got, he grinned. Not bad for 0:07:08.089 --> 0:07:11.569 a boy from Hope ark Saha, I grinned back at him. 0:07:11.690 --> 0:07:15.210 Does that country boyshtick still work for you? Better than ever? 0:07:15.570 --> 0:07:18.850 But not with everyone? Apparently you look great by the way, 0:07:19.610 --> 0:07:22.570 you look great too, I said, California must agree with you. 0:07:23.610 --> 0:07:26.369 He opened a bottle of his own wine, a red, 0:07:26.530 --> 0:07:29.850 saying it's one of my favorites, very velvety but structured. 0:07:30.530 --> 0:07:33.530 When we made eye contact, he added to saying, that 0:07:33.570 --> 0:07:37.330 make me sound sophisticated or like an asshole? Why choose? 0:07:37.369 --> 0:07:40.210 I said, and he laughed, I'm teasing. I said, you 0:07:40.250 --> 0:07:42.410 don't sound like an asshole, and I'd love a glass 0:07:42.450 --> 0:07:46.889 of something velvety and structured. After he'd poured, we clinked 0:07:46.890 --> 0:07:50.770 our glasses together to the past and the present, he said, 0:07:50.929 --> 0:07:54.850 and I said, here here. I sat on a barstool 0:07:54.890 --> 0:07:57.330 at the Granite Island while he stood facing me, with 0:07:57.369 --> 0:08:00.570 the bay behind him, dicing an onion on a cutting board. 0:08:01.290 --> 0:08:04.290 Using the knife, he swept the diced onion into the 0:08:04.330 --> 0:08:07.570 pan and it sizzled a little. When did you learn 0:08:07.610 --> 0:08:11.130 to cook, I asked, After my second divorce, I decided 0:08:11.170 --> 0:08:13.009 not to be one of those bachelors with nothing but 0:08:13.050 --> 0:08:15.250 a six pack and a jar of mustard in the fridge. 0:08:15.570 --> 0:08:18.210 Turns out cooking is kind of fun. I'll bet I 0:08:18.250 --> 0:08:21.449 haven't touched a stove in a decade. I said, would 0:08:21.450 --> 0:08:24.530 you like for tonight to be the night? He said yes, 0:08:24.610 --> 0:08:27.850 I thought, but not with the stove. I said, you 0:08:27.890 --> 0:08:30.009 look like you've got things under control. What are you 0:08:30.050 --> 0:08:34.890 making anyway? You ever had a ratitudey tart full disclosure. 0:08:35.010 --> 0:08:37.050 The crust that's in the oven as we speak was 0:08:37.090 --> 0:08:40.730 made earlier today by my housekeeper, Elena. I still want 0:08:40.730 --> 0:08:42.930 you to be impressed by my slicing and dicing, though 0:08:43.570 --> 0:08:47.770 I'm very impressed, I said. The smell of the baking 0:08:47.890 --> 0:08:52.530 crust competed pleasantly with the savory scent of the simmering vegetables. 0:08:52.850 --> 0:08:55.050 I was hungry, but I didn't want to be full 0:08:55.090 --> 0:08:58.290 if we had sex. I took another sip of wine 0:08:58.410 --> 0:09:01.050 and said, do you remember when you told me about 0:09:01.090 --> 0:09:04.210 going home with Kirby Haiti for Thanksgiving your first year 0:09:04.250 --> 0:09:07.730 at Yale. You were very impressed that his parents' penthouse 0:09:07.770 --> 0:09:11.490 had its own elevator. And look at you now. It's funny, 0:09:11.490 --> 0:09:13.810 he said, because I don't think I ever ride up 0:09:13.850 --> 0:09:18.490 here without recalling that. He looked at me intently. What 0:09:18.650 --> 0:09:20.970 you and I had, he said, I never found that 0:09:21.050 --> 0:09:24.410 with anyone else. I mourned it for so many years. 0:09:25.050 --> 0:09:27.610 I did too, I said, And it seems like it 0:09:27.650 --> 0:09:29.890 should be weird as hell to be standing across from 0:09:29.970 --> 0:09:32.810 you right now, he said, but it feels totally natural. 0:09:33.530 --> 0:09:38.130 I agree, I said. The intensity of his expression made 0:09:38.130 --> 0:09:42.250 it difficult to maintain eye contact, and with feigned casualness, 0:09:42.410 --> 0:09:44.770 I said, tell me about a day in the life 0:09:44.770 --> 0:09:48.050 of Bill Clinton. I've got a yoga instructor who comes 0:09:48.090 --> 0:09:50.370 here three mornings a week at seven. Is this too 0:09:50.450 --> 0:09:53.930 much detail? I shook my head. So I arrived in 0:09:53.970 --> 0:09:56.610 the office at nine thirty or ten. I've got a driver. 0:09:57.050 --> 0:10:00.610 His smile was sheepish. I'll confess I feel self conscious 0:10:00.650 --> 0:10:03.010 around you with regard to some of this, But a 0:10:03.010 --> 0:10:05.850 lot of our dreams came true, didn't they we've both 0:10:05.970 --> 0:10:08.690 risen to the highest level of our fields or your 0:10:08.810 --> 0:10:12.850 damn near it. My God, if you do become president, Hillary, 0:10:13.090 --> 0:10:15.850 it'll be the greatest fucking thing. You'll be so good 0:10:15.890 --> 0:10:18.090 at it. And just think of making history like that. 0:10:18.490 --> 0:10:22.210 I can't pretend I won't be envious. Honestly, I try 0:10:22.210 --> 0:10:24.170 not to think too much in those terms. I said, 0:10:24.570 --> 0:10:26.490 it makes me feel as if everything that comes out 0:10:26.570 --> 0:10:29.130 of my mouth should be written in calligraphy with a 0:10:29.210 --> 0:10:34.090 quill pen, which is immobilizing. I'm not, you know, George Washington, 0:10:34.890 --> 0:10:39.290 not even Georgia Washington. Bell grind is that George's sister, 0:10:39.490 --> 0:10:42.050 I asked, or him when he lets his wig down, 0:10:42.130 --> 0:10:47.010 he replied, we were both smiling. I watched as Bill 0:10:47.130 --> 0:10:50.290 shook some oregano into his palm and dropped it into 0:10:50.330 --> 0:10:53.610 the mixture. Hey, I hear that Tara and Pete Forgod, 0:10:53.690 --> 0:10:55.850 held a fundraiser for you at their house last night. 0:10:56.570 --> 0:11:00.450 News travels fast. I said, the Foregods are terrific. He said. 0:11:00.650 --> 0:11:03.410 I was invited, but I had a conflict, and I thought, Hell, 0:11:03.650 --> 0:11:07.050 I get you all to myself for dinner tonight. There 0:11:07.130 --> 0:11:11.450 is a happiness I felt in this moment, A pure, warm, 0:11:11.970 --> 0:11:17.970 unambivalent animal happiness. I just really really enjoyed being in 0:11:18.090 --> 0:11:22.890 Bill Clinton's company and then sitting there on his barstool 0:11:23.250 --> 0:11:26.770 listening to his classical music. I thought, what if I 0:11:26.850 --> 0:11:29.610 didn't run for president, What if I didn't even run 0:11:29.650 --> 0:11:33.250 for Senate again after this term. Let some other woman 0:11:33.410 --> 0:11:37.090 make history while having her clothes and voice and intellect 0:11:37.210 --> 0:11:41.810 and voting record picked apart. Let me have great sex 0:11:42.090 --> 0:11:46.570 and stimulating conversations. Let me travel to foreign countries, not 0:11:46.730 --> 0:11:50.770 to meet with dignitaries and eat chicken in ballrooms, but 0:11:50.890 --> 0:11:54.970 to swim in fancy pools at expensive hotels and read 0:11:55.130 --> 0:11:59.210 novels while lying on enormous mattresses. Let me be a 0:11:59.210 --> 0:12:03.330 well paid lawyer or consultant or lobbyist. Let me be 0:12:03.410 --> 0:12:09.250 Bill Clinton's girlfriend again. Let me finally be Bill Clinton's wife. 0:12:09.570 --> 0:12:12.929 Allowed I said, that's true. You do get me all 0:12:12.930 --> 0:12:17.170 to yourself tonight. This is when he said, I have 0:12:17.210 --> 0:12:19.930 a story that I think you'll appreciate. He reached for 0:12:19.970 --> 0:12:23.250 the wine bottle and refilled my glass. You may have 0:12:23.330 --> 0:12:26.210 heard that I've started a foundation. We're still getting our 0:12:26.210 --> 0:12:29.010 sea legs, but we're focusing on all the big issues, 0:12:29.370 --> 0:12:34.570 climate change, poverty biomedical research. Eighteen months ago, I hired 0:12:34.610 --> 0:12:37.610 a woman named Kira Duncan to run the foundation. She 0:12:37.650 --> 0:12:40.410 has a stellar record, went to Stanford for undergrad and 0:12:40.450 --> 0:12:43.250 business school. After b school, she worked for a gay 0:12:43.330 --> 0:12:46.250 rights advocacy group. So I assume she's a lesbian, even 0:12:46.290 --> 0:12:52.170 though she's gorgeous, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Really, 0:12:52.250 --> 0:12:59.810 I thought, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Now, Riley, 0:13:00.050 --> 0:13:02.530 I said, I've heard that it's possible for a woman 0:13:02.570 --> 0:13:06.290 to be gorgeous and gay at the same time. He laughed. 0:13:06.690 --> 0:13:10.170 Just wait now. I'm not usually in the fount Foundation office, 0:13:10.250 --> 0:13:12.890 but Kira and I talk five six times a week. 0:13:13.050 --> 0:13:16.370 She's very on the ball, always prepared, a tireless worker 0:13:16.570 --> 0:13:18.250 in a lot of ways. She reminds me of you, 0:13:18.890 --> 0:13:21.330 and she's pretty buttoned up about her personal life, but 0:13:21.450 --> 0:13:24.930 bits and pieces emerge. She does indeed have a female partner, 0:13:25.090 --> 0:13:28.250 a gown named Louise we. Kira and I go to 0:13:28.250 --> 0:13:31.330 Haiti together to meet with Dan Jacobs, who runs Global 0:13:31.370 --> 0:13:35.090 Health Mission. Do you know Dan, Yes, I said, Ghim 0:13:35.170 --> 0:13:38.610 does wonderful work. When Kira and I are in Haiti, 0:13:38.650 --> 0:13:40.770 he went on, she tells me, she and Louise want 0:13:40.770 --> 0:13:43.250 to have a baby. They're going back and forth about 0:13:43.250 --> 0:13:45.530 who should carry it and who the donor will be. 0:13:45.730 --> 0:13:50.170 If that's not the quintessential modern problem, huh, well, there 0:13:50.170 --> 0:13:54.050 have always been divisions of childcare, I said. Although I 0:13:54.090 --> 0:13:56.690 was speaking in what I hoped was a normal tone, 0:13:56.970 --> 0:14:00.210 my wariness was increasing. I wanted to go back just 0:14:00.290 --> 0:14:03.050 a minute or two to when he'd said, I get 0:14:03.090 --> 0:14:07.250 you all to myself. Now I've met Louise by this point, 0:14:07.330 --> 0:14:11.170 he continued, and she's smart, a tough customer, very butch. 0:14:11.890 --> 0:14:14.730 A few weeks pass and Kira and Louise invite me 0:14:14.770 --> 0:14:17.370 over for brunch and say they have something to ask me. 0:14:17.850 --> 0:14:20.650 They've decided Kia will carry the baby and they want 0:14:20.770 --> 0:14:24.090 me to be the sperm donor. Remind me how old 0:14:24.170 --> 0:14:27.890 your kids are now, I said, Alexis is twenty six 0:14:27.970 --> 0:14:31.610 and Ricky is twenty nine. That was a consideration. Absolutely, 0:14:31.810 --> 0:14:34.930 How would this look to them? Ricky is very relaxed, 0:14:35.010 --> 0:14:38.410 very accepting, but Alexis can be judgmental. I say to 0:14:38.490 --> 0:14:40.610 Kia and Louise, let me take a week to think 0:14:40.650 --> 0:14:45.290 about it. Why did I so dislike the turn our 0:14:45.330 --> 0:14:49.970 conversation had taken. Was it jealousy, the reminder of my age, 0:14:50.570 --> 0:14:54.730 or the reminder of Bill's narcissism, as if his sperm, 0:14:55.050 --> 0:14:59.810 his fifty nine year old sperm, was uniquely worthy. The 0:14:59.930 --> 0:15:03.210 day after brunch, Kira calls me up sobbing, he continued, 0:15:03.490 --> 0:15:07.010 She's crying so hard. I can scarcely understand what she's saying, 0:15:07.610 --> 0:15:09.850 but I make out that Louise is accused her of 0:15:09.890 --> 0:15:11.770 wanting me to be the donor as a way of 0:15:11.810 --> 0:15:15.810 creating intimacy with me. Kia says, I felt so angry 0:15:15.890 --> 0:15:18.250 when Louise said this. I went for a run, just 0:15:18.290 --> 0:15:22.010 feeling furious, and that's when I realized she's right. I'm 0:15:22.050 --> 0:15:25.810 in love with you. Kia offers to resign effective immediately, 0:15:25.930 --> 0:15:29.610 which I don't allow. Wow, I said, where do things 0:15:29.650 --> 0:15:33.810 stand now? At least the mystery of why I disliked 0:15:33.890 --> 0:15:37.650 hearing all this had been solved. We're taking things slow, 0:15:38.210 --> 0:15:43.450 just enjoying being together, not rushing into any decisions. Wait 0:15:43.490 --> 0:15:47.530 a second, I said, you're in a relationship with Kira. 0:15:48.770 --> 0:15:51.690 She's not big on labels, Bill said, and here she 0:15:51.810 --> 0:15:55.330 is the sexually fluid individual. She hasn't dated a man 0:15:55.410 --> 0:15:58.570 since she was a teenager. But the energy between us, 0:15:58.610 --> 0:16:03.610 the connection, it's truly incredible. Kia's extraordinary in the way 0:16:03.610 --> 0:16:07.890 she sees the world, her creativity and compassion. Hopefully she'll 0:16:07.930 --> 0:16:10.370 pop in later tonight and I can introduce the two 0:16:10.450 --> 0:16:15.530 of you. She'll pop in tonight, I asked. He looked 0:16:15.530 --> 0:16:18.250 at his watch. She has a dinner meeting, so probably 0:16:18.250 --> 0:16:23.730 not before nine, and she is or isn't pregnant. For now, 0:16:23.770 --> 0:16:26.330 We've hit pause on that, he said. We've got a 0:16:26.370 --> 0:16:29.370 trip together to Namibia in November, and we'll discuss it 0:16:29.410 --> 0:16:33.530 after we get back. One of the most important lessons 0:16:33.570 --> 0:16:38.130 I've learned in life is this, do not preemptively take 0:16:38.290 --> 0:16:42.450 no for an answer. Do not decide your request has 0:16:42.450 --> 0:16:47.250 been rejected before it officially has. As with so many 0:16:47.290 --> 0:16:51.610 other lessons that involve assertion, this one applies far more 0:16:51.650 --> 0:16:54.810 to women than men. Thus I took a sip of 0:16:54.850 --> 0:17:01.210 wine and said, surely you and Kira aren't monogamous. He squinted. 0:17:01.970 --> 0:17:05.210 Your tart smells delicious, I said, But just to give 0:17:05.250 --> 0:17:09.090 ourselves time, let's go to bed now and eat afterwards. 0:17:10.290 --> 0:17:15.330 He blinked, then smiled a little questioningly. For old time's sake, 0:17:15.409 --> 0:17:20.330 I said, for fun with no strings attached. I'm certainly flattered, 0:17:20.369 --> 0:17:26.209 he said, And surprised, are you? I asked? Hillary? You 0:17:26.290 --> 0:17:29.770 know you've always always held a special place in my heart, 0:17:29.970 --> 0:17:32.569 he said, Having you in my home now it's a 0:17:32.609 --> 0:17:35.530 true joy. I've thought about you so many times over 0:17:35.570 --> 0:17:40.129 the years. Then he said, for anything physical to happen 0:17:40.169 --> 0:17:44.250 between us, that's just not where I am. So now 0:17:44.330 --> 0:17:49.250 my request had been officially rejected. There were other things 0:17:49.290 --> 0:17:52.929 I thought in this moment and later, but the main 0:17:53.050 --> 0:17:57.609 one was what a giant, fucking waste of time and 0:17:57.810 --> 0:18:01.489 energy it had been to worry over the acquisition of 0:18:01.649 --> 0:18:06.249 condoms and lubricant. This was the man for whom, not 0:18:06.490 --> 0:18:11.689 five minutes earlier, I'd pondered, chuck my presidential aspirations, my 0:18:11.970 --> 0:18:16.210 entire career, setting aside, what was wrong with him? What 0:18:16.250 --> 0:18:21.129 was wrong with me? I heard myself ask? What is 0:18:21.169 --> 0:18:24.330 it about that story of you and Kira that made 0:18:24.330 --> 0:18:29.009 you think I'd particularly appreciate it? His tone was wary 0:18:29.209 --> 0:18:32.609 but cheerful. He couldn't discern if we were moving away 0:18:32.689 --> 0:18:36.570 from or deeper into a fraud topic, as he said, 0:18:37.050 --> 0:18:40.090 the feminist angle, for one thing, sisters are doing it 0:18:40.129 --> 0:18:44.409 for themselves, and her directness, her lack of gamesmanship. Do 0:18:44.530 --> 0:18:48.889 I mean gameswomanship? He smiled. I remember how frustrated you 0:18:48.970 --> 0:18:51.889 felt by the narrow expectations for women when we were 0:18:51.929 --> 0:18:55.250 in law school. And what did you want from tonight? 0:18:55.369 --> 0:19:00.129 I asked? Why am I here? He bit his lower lip, 0:19:00.409 --> 0:19:03.010 and I could see that my opinion mattered to him, 0:19:03.290 --> 0:19:07.450 that he sincerely wanted my approval, or at least feared 0:19:07.609 --> 0:19:12.530 my opprobrium. But hadn't this been Bill's genius as a politician, 0:19:12.850 --> 0:19:15.529 That he was this way with everyone and it was 0:19:15.649 --> 0:19:20.010 always sincere, he said, When two old friends have the 0:19:20.090 --> 0:19:23.009 chance to catch up, that's something I value more and 0:19:23.090 --> 0:19:25.569 more as the years passed, and I thought we were 0:19:25.609 --> 0:19:30.249 having a nice time old friends. It was hard to 0:19:30.330 --> 0:19:35.129 know which word was more insulting. Then he added, I 0:19:35.169 --> 0:19:37.330 also wanted to float the idea of you joining my 0:19:37.409 --> 0:19:41.169 foundation's board. There can be a shortage of female leadership, 0:19:41.330 --> 0:19:45.169 the female perspective in these parts. But god knows, I 0:19:45.209 --> 0:19:49.969 didn't mean to be confusing, I said, just out of curiosity, 0:19:50.250 --> 0:19:53.889 how old is the oldest woman you've slept with? I 0:19:53.929 --> 0:19:57.369 don't see what that has to do with anything. Forty five, 0:19:57.609 --> 0:20:02.209 I said, forty Evangeline was forty four when we separated 0:20:02.290 --> 0:20:05.209 last year. He bowed his head. If I gave you 0:20:05.250 --> 0:20:09.290 the impression this dinner was romantic, I'm sorry in the 0:20:09.369 --> 0:20:11.769 last few days, did it cross your mind we'd have 0:20:11.810 --> 0:20:15.969 sex tonight? Given the inherently loaded nature of the question, 0:20:16.330 --> 0:20:20.609 I asked, as neutrally as possible. I just I wasn't 0:20:20.609 --> 0:20:23.369 thinking in those terms. He said, what with being in 0:20:23.409 --> 0:20:28.129 a brand new relationship. The oven timer beeped then, and 0:20:28.209 --> 0:20:31.290 we didn't speak as he slid on an oven, mit 0:20:31.449 --> 0:20:35.129 opened the glass door and removed the crust. He set 0:20:35.169 --> 0:20:38.769 the crust on a stove burner. We still didn't speak 0:20:38.810 --> 0:20:42.929 as he began spooning the ratitude into the crust, and finally, 0:20:43.010 --> 0:20:46.409 when he was finished, he said, that doesn't look half bad, 0:20:46.730 --> 0:20:49.810 does it. But I didn't want to eat his food. 0:20:50.330 --> 0:20:53.210 I didn't want to join his board, I didn't want 0:20:53.209 --> 0:20:55.530 to be in his penthouse, and I didn't want to 0:20:55.570 --> 0:20:59.810 be in his presence. It wouldn't I thought, be difficult 0:20:59.850 --> 0:21:03.969 to remain on good terms with him. Salvaging this moment 0:21:04.129 --> 0:21:08.770 would require little effort. Perhaps in the future he'd even 0:21:08.810 --> 0:21:11.930 feel guilt. He wouldn't want a name and be more 0:21:12.050 --> 0:21:15.889 generous and donating to my campaign, or more helpful in 0:21:15.970 --> 0:21:22.369 soliciting others. But backpedaling restoring the goodwill between us would 0:21:22.409 --> 0:21:27.330 be difficult for me putting up with Bill Clinton's bullshit. 0:21:28.010 --> 0:21:31.169 Hadn't I earned the right never to do it again? 0:21:32.290 --> 0:21:36.649 Sometimes speaking your mind is expensive, which doesn't mean it's 0:21:36.730 --> 0:21:40.770 not worth it. There's nothing you did wrong tonight that's 0:21:40.889 --> 0:21:43.570 provable in a court of law, I said, which is 0:21:43.609 --> 0:21:46.649 your specialty, Bill, But I do think you led me on. 0:21:47.330 --> 0:21:50.690 It's funny because all those years ago when you proposed 0:21:50.850 --> 0:21:54.449 I remember thinking, on the one hand, he'll never be faithful, 0:21:54.850 --> 0:21:57.729 but on the other hand, he'll never not be attracted 0:21:57.770 --> 0:22:01.690 to me. He just loves women and sex. But now 0:22:01.730 --> 0:22:04.489 I think I was wrong. If we'd gotten married, you 0:22:04.570 --> 0:22:07.090 eventually would have traded me in for a new model. 0:22:07.929 --> 0:22:11.490 His face flushed as he said, what our marriage would 0:22:11.490 --> 0:22:14.690 have looked like is immaterial, and you're the one who 0:22:14.770 --> 0:22:18.209 made it immaterial. I was prepared to do my best 0:22:18.250 --> 0:22:22.010 as your husband was. My best is my best perfect? 0:22:22.290 --> 0:22:22.369 No? 0:22:23.129 --> 0:22:24.810 Was it enough for you? Also? 0:22:24.970 --> 0:22:25.010 No? 0:22:25.570 --> 0:22:28.609 Therefore, the subject of whom I've chosen to be involved 0:22:28.609 --> 0:22:32.570 with since is none of your business, except I said, 0:22:32.770 --> 0:22:35.889 for your decision to invite me over for an intimate dinner. 0:22:36.330 --> 0:22:39.090 I swept my arm through the air, taking in the tart, 0:22:39.250 --> 0:22:42.169 the music, the view. Is it that you wanted to 0:22:42.250 --> 0:22:44.689 leave your options open? But now that I'm here, I 0:22:44.730 --> 0:22:48.250 look too wrinkly to you? Is my skin not milky 0:22:48.290 --> 0:22:52.010 white enough? He bit his lip. He actually had two 0:22:52.290 --> 0:22:56.129 bitten lip modes, one pensive and one angry, and this 0:22:56.290 --> 0:23:00.689 was the angry version, and said, you've never understood that 0:23:00.810 --> 0:23:05.889 you can't litigate the human heart. Spare me. I slid 0:23:05.929 --> 0:23:08.729 forward on the barstool. I know we didn't get through 0:23:08.730 --> 0:23:10.810 a tip day for you, but I hope that on 0:23:10.850 --> 0:23:14.929 a regular basis seeing a therapist as part of your schedule, because, 0:23:14.970 --> 0:23:18.209 without question, you're a narcissist. And I mean that in 0:23:18.209 --> 0:23:21.729 the clinical sense. What diagnosis would you give to a 0:23:21.770 --> 0:23:26.570 woman who tries unsuccessfully to seduce a narcissist? If he 0:23:26.689 --> 0:23:30.689 wasn't shouting by this point, he was close fuck you, 0:23:31.050 --> 0:23:34.249 I said, I believe I made it clear I'd rather not. 0:23:34.609 --> 0:23:37.529 He said, you know, I said, if you're trying to 0:23:37.649 --> 0:23:41.609 humiliate me, I am ashamed of myself, but not for 0:23:41.689 --> 0:23:45.810 thinking you'd find me attractive. I'm ashamed because you've given 0:23:45.889 --> 0:23:49.649 me so much evidence for so many years about what 0:23:49.770 --> 0:23:53.330 a piece of shit you are, and once again I 0:23:53.330 --> 0:23:58.129 ignored it. I stood goodbye, Bill. I didn't wait for 0:23:58.209 --> 0:24:02.450 him to respond before I turned and strode toward the elevator. 0:24:03.449 --> 0:24:06.529 You think that's how it works, he yelled. I welcome 0:24:06.609 --> 0:24:09.090 you into my home, and when things don't go exact 0:24:09.129 --> 0:24:13.050 exactly how you imagined, you get to impugne my character. 0:24:13.730 --> 0:24:17.330 I glanced over my shoulder. I don't impune your character, 0:24:17.409 --> 0:24:21.649 I said, you do that all by yourself. If we'd 0:24:21.649 --> 0:24:25.050 been on the ground floor, my dramatic exit could have 0:24:25.090 --> 0:24:29.489 been more efficient as it was. After reaching the elevator, 0:24:29.730 --> 0:24:33.210 grabbing my purse off the table, and pressing the call button, 0:24:33.530 --> 0:24:36.330 I didn't need to wait longer than a few seconds, 0:24:36.689 --> 0:24:39.570 but any delay as I stood there with my back 0:24:39.609 --> 0:24:44.129 to him and those enormous windows imbued the situation with 0:24:44.209 --> 0:24:49.369 a certain absurdity Behind me, I heard him say, you've 0:24:49.530 --> 0:24:52.850 always gotten off on making me feel bad about myself, 0:24:53.209 --> 0:24:57.250 holding me to your impossible standards, then scolding me when 0:24:57.290 --> 0:25:00.250 I don't meet them. You know what you are, You're 0:25:00.290 --> 0:25:05.489 a self righteous cunt. I looked over my shoulder and said, 0:25:06.250 --> 0:25:11.289 and you're a spoiled, selfish child. This is when he 0:25:11.490 --> 0:25:14.929 threw the serving spoon. Was he throwing it at me? 0:25:15.730 --> 0:25:18.290 I'd never known him to be violent, though I'd also 0:25:18.449 --> 0:25:22.729 never seen him this enraged. He hit the red porcelain 0:25:22.810 --> 0:25:25.769 lamp on the table, knocking it to the floor and 0:25:25.929 --> 0:25:29.450 shattering it. I was shocked, and when I looked at him, 0:25:29.570 --> 0:25:34.169 it seemed he was too. The elevator doors opened and 0:25:34.250 --> 0:25:38.369 I stepped inside, then turned around. I held the doors 0:25:38.409 --> 0:25:42.169 open as I spoke. Did you say your housekeeper's name 0:25:42.330 --> 0:25:46.649 is Elena. You're so good at getting other people to 0:25:46.810 --> 0:25:48.570 clean up your messes. 0:25:58.050 --> 0:26:02.010 That was Curtis Sinenfeld, reading from her novel Rodham. After 0:26:02.050 --> 0:26:04.729 the break, I continue to talk with Curtis about this 0:26:04.850 --> 0:26:08.010 passage and about the real Bill Clinton and the reality 0:26:08.129 --> 0:26:21.609 of his legacy. What I love about this passage is 0:26:21.649 --> 0:26:24.730 you see played out, over the course of about twenty pages, 0:26:25.490 --> 0:26:30.249 the entirety of a romantic relationship. Like there's the hopefulness 0:26:30.290 --> 0:26:33.489 at the beginning, and the flirtation and the projection about 0:26:33.530 --> 0:26:38.249 the future, and then it gives way to the dashed 0:26:38.290 --> 0:26:41.010 hopes and the hurt, and then this kind of divorce. 0:26:41.689 --> 0:26:45.369 That's funny. That's an interesting observation which I agree with 0:26:45.449 --> 0:26:46.850 and had not thought of before. 0:26:47.050 --> 0:26:54.249 My undergraduate degree in literature is really paid off. This 0:26:54.330 --> 0:26:56.010 is something that struck me in maybe this is something 0:26:56.010 --> 0:26:58.530 that you've thought about more and you could bring clarity 0:26:58.570 --> 0:27:00.449 to this whole thing. But in the book you avoid 0:27:00.530 --> 0:27:04.409 the Monica Lewinsky scandal because in your version of history 0:27:04.409 --> 0:27:07.649 Booklinton never becomes president, so he never has this intern 0:27:08.290 --> 0:27:11.410 but there is and in for the Wenita Broaderick story 0:27:11.609 --> 0:27:14.889 where Hillary has a confrontation with a woman who accuses 0:27:15.609 --> 0:27:19.330 Bill of having raped her. So in the passage that 0:27:19.369 --> 0:27:23.330 you just read it Bill's penthouse, when you have Hillary 0:27:24.209 --> 0:27:27.489 accused Bill of doing nothing wrong that could be proven 0:27:27.689 --> 0:27:30.330 in a court of law, and in the next breath 0:27:30.449 --> 0:27:33.090 she goes on to say that he's a man who 0:27:33.129 --> 0:27:37.289 loves women and sex. How is the reader meant to 0:27:37.409 --> 0:27:37.850 hear that? 0:27:39.770 --> 0:27:46.369 Well, I think there's a question about Bill Clinton and 0:27:46.449 --> 0:27:49.490 like sort of who he is or who he mostly 0:27:49.649 --> 0:27:53.810 is that exists for the American public, Like is he 0:27:54.810 --> 0:27:58.129 basically a good guy or basically a bad guy? And 0:27:58.290 --> 0:28:02.090 I feel like in some ways that question has been 0:28:02.889 --> 0:28:06.530 discussed you know, since the early nineties, so for almost 0:28:06.689 --> 0:28:10.850 thirty years, and I think the way people answer that 0:28:10.929 --> 0:28:16.209 has changed during that time. In the book, one of 0:28:16.250 --> 0:28:22.169 the reasons Hillary doesn't stay with him is that she 0:28:22.369 --> 0:28:27.769 kind of gets this glimpse of his darker interactions with 0:28:27.850 --> 0:28:32.770 women and doesn't really want to be responsible for them. 0:28:33.850 --> 0:28:36.209 And I think in real life, I mean, Hillary in 0:28:36.209 --> 0:28:43.090 some ways could not draw that much attention to Trump's 0:28:43.209 --> 0:28:48.410 offenses against women in the twenty sixteen campaign because Trump 0:28:48.690 --> 0:28:51.690 would always invoke Bill's history, so it sort of seemed 0:28:51.690 --> 0:28:55.890 like Hillary was held in some ways more accountable for 0:28:55.930 --> 0:29:01.850 Bill's behavior than Bill was. But I think one of 0:29:01.890 --> 0:29:05.729 the things that draws me to reading and writing fiction, 0:29:05.890 --> 0:29:14.010 it's that it captures the contradictory nature of people, and 0:29:14.970 --> 0:29:18.410 like so much of the public discourse, I think, you know, 0:29:18.570 --> 0:29:20.410 like we either like want to worship someone. You can 0:29:20.450 --> 0:29:22.930 sort of see this on Twitter, like it's like this 0:29:23.010 --> 0:29:25.130 is the week that we're all going to like worship 0:29:25.330 --> 0:29:28.410 Jeff Goldbloom or like designed he's the best person ever, 0:29:28.450 --> 0:29:30.610 and then like this is when we're going to turn 0:29:30.690 --> 0:29:35.410 against this person, and that it's either or instead of that, 0:29:35.610 --> 0:29:40.130 like people are contradictory and we even recognize that. Like, 0:29:40.170 --> 0:29:43.450 I think probably almost all of us have someone in 0:29:43.490 --> 0:29:47.690 our life where we feel like, if that person weren't 0:29:47.690 --> 0:29:51.770 my close friend, I really wouldn't like them, or I 0:29:52.290 --> 0:29:54.810 really wouldn't be comfortable with their behavior. And maybe I 0:29:54.850 --> 0:29:58.049 am uncomfortable with their behavior and I like them, and 0:29:58.209 --> 0:30:01.529 a part of me feels like, maybe that's what life 0:30:01.570 --> 0:30:02.650 is like for Hillary. 0:30:04.010 --> 0:30:04.890 Yeah. 0:30:05.290 --> 0:30:09.930 I think that Heavyweight does a really big, beautiful job. 0:30:10.730 --> 0:30:16.010 It's rare in nonfiction that lets people be both good 0:30:16.050 --> 0:30:22.729 and bad or like illustrates the contradictory nature of humans. 0:30:23.290 --> 0:30:26.209 Like I feel like so many of the episodes flip 0:30:26.290 --> 0:30:30.850 something around where the person that we didn't like it first, 0:30:31.250 --> 0:30:33.650 we get some piece of information that forces us to 0:30:33.850 --> 0:30:36.010 like them more, or maybe vice versa. 0:30:35.930 --> 0:30:40.329 Like yeah, wow, thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad to 0:30:40.370 --> 0:30:42.850 hear you say that, because yeah, like I think it's 0:30:42.890 --> 0:30:46.770 probably the highest aspiration of the show or those moves, 0:30:46.970 --> 0:30:49.850 and yeah, I don't know if I've ever heard, actually 0:30:49.890 --> 0:30:56.450 anyone say that. That's very gratifying to here. Do do 0:30:56.730 --> 0:30:59.009 know if Hillary has read the book? 0:31:00.050 --> 0:31:01.810 I don't think she has. I mean, I don't know, 0:31:01.850 --> 0:31:05.010 Like if I mean, I promise not to do this. 0:31:05.850 --> 0:31:08.729 But if like two years from now, I said, like, 0:31:08.890 --> 0:31:12.249 I've written a book based on your life, like, do 0:31:12.330 --> 0:31:14.529 you think you'd be intrigued or horrified? 0:31:16.930 --> 0:31:23.290 I would be I think, uh yeah, I think Curtis 0:31:23.330 --> 0:31:30.250 has lost her mind. I mean I think I would 0:31:30.290 --> 0:31:43.050 read it. I just want to say, thank you, Curtis. 0:31:43.290 --> 0:31:44.930 You're welcome, Jonathan, thank you. 0:31:47.970 --> 0:31:52.090 Curtis Enfeld's novel Rodham is available in bookstores everywhere. And 0:31:52.170 --> 0:31:54.090 we'll be back next week with our final check in 0:31:54.209 --> 0:31:57.009 of the year. And it's a fun one, Kaylee, Stevie 0:31:57.050 --> 0:32:00.130 and I will be talking about the holidays and baldness. 0:32:00.730 --> 0:32:01.370 We'll see you then