Eno Sarris: Pitching tipping tech paranoia + Why to root for Brewers

00:00:04
Speaker 1: You know, Sires a senior writer for the Athletic back on foul territory with us pitching aficionado, analytics stuff, plus the whole deal. Also listen to him on rates and barrels. Really appreciate the time again. You know, it's great to see you. And there's two key articles I want to hit with you. So I'm actually going to start with one put together by some of your colleagues on pitch tipping and how much paranoia there is and how there are a lot of MLB players really speaking publicly, I think more than ever this year about it. So where do you stand on where we're at as a sport with pitch tipping taking over as a way to get an edge.

00:00:38
Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen it the traditional way this year with Hazes Lozardo kind of showing inside his glove and having to figure out how to hold his glove, you know, tighter to his body and have to make that adjustment. I mean, that's totally above board. That's we've played baseball that way forever. If you can see into the glove and you can give a sign from second base, then that's part of the game where I think that it you know, this piece goes and talks about what's what's uniquely challenging about the modern game is we have all these technological ways to spot tips now, and so you can run a player's biomechanics through the machine and the machine can point out, oh, his elbow here or this or that and kind of highlight places where their delivery is different for different pitches. Then you can take that back to the hitters meeting and say, can we see this? Is this actionable? You know, the machines say this and this and this. Then you can even take it to the traject machine, which is this you know, new wave pitching machine that really shows you the pictures delivery and kind of gives you kind of a hologram almost of the pictures delivery. And you can actually start to take the tips to the pitching machine and practice them. So now you can before the game, you know, the hitting group can say, hey, you know, we think his elbow does this on sliders.

00:01:58
Speaker 3: Can you see it?

00:01:59
Speaker 2: We'll throw on traject Oh yeah, I can see it.

00:02:01
Speaker 3: I can see it. I can see it.

00:02:03
Speaker 4: And this is.

00:02:03
Speaker 2: Why Cody Bellinger says, sometimes I can't even unsee it. Once they tell me what the tip is so you know, the the this is part of the old school game coming together with the new school tools, uh to make it really difficult. But kind of came to a point with Matt Strom on the on the on the mound kind of showing into his glove and Andy pa Has, you know, sticking his arm out. But after the game, Andy pa Has says, well, you know, I wasn't giving pitch type. I think what he was giving was pitch location because he made that movement on two different pitch types, as Strom pointed out on social media, but both pitches were inside, so I think he was tipping location. The catcher was tipping location by setting up early, and Pies was relaying that. I think that's less I defer. I want to defer to the hitters here on the panel, but I would throw this to you guys. It's less useful maybe to have location because pitchers missed their location. It doesn't give you pitch type. How do you feel about tipping location and would you want to know that if you were a hitter at the plate.

00:03:13
Speaker 5: Location is the key because I can take a guess on what's coming depending on who's out there. Yeah, if a guy gives me in and I'm facing a lefty, I mean, I ain't getting a slider in and ain't getting a breaking ball in. I'm getting a fastball or change of ninety percent of the time for most lefties, it's going to be a fastball in right so or even if I'm facing a righty and they give me away, they're not usually throwing a slider or something outside. They're usually trying to backfoot it. To me, you got to know yourself a little bit. So yeah, location location. To me, the pitch type is fine and it helps you, but you don't know where they're throwing it. But if you can get a guy to tell you where to look, that's a huge advantage.

00:03:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I agree, but especially with the idea that like, oh, this is probably hard. So that's probably what task or thought process was inside. It's probably hard. It's a one to zero count, I'm gonna gear I'm gonna gear up for the fastball. And but the the flip side of this in this this moment in particular, was that Strom didn't execute. You know, the pitch wasn't good, so it wasn't even where, it didn't even hit the target. So but but it probably helped the oscar to some degree to kind of you know, go think ahead and be like, this is probably a fastball.

00:04:24
Speaker 4: It's coming.

00:04:26
Speaker 3: You know.

00:04:26
Speaker 6: I got to ask you this because social media blows up. There's people from right field saying, oh see, he's got this, he's got this signe see and he's taken this. He's taking his phone camera all the way from right field and seeing like, oh see, how obvious it is. How much do you feel like, as somebody and I'm not saying this in any in any way defaming you, you didn't play that. When you see something as demonstrative as this or this, do you feel like it is actually them having the sign? Or do you feel like teams are now playing the cat and mouse game like look at us, look at us.

00:05:09
Speaker 2: Patrick Bailey admitted that earlier in this season. That's in the piece from Anny McCully. He admitted that he was just doing it to mess with the picture and now the pictures like, what what do they got on me? Oh my gosh, I'm in my head? And so yeah, there's definitely some of that, and you know, I do try to defer to people with play. That's why I mentioned when the machines kind of kick something out. If I was part of that, you know, hitting group that said, hey, the machine say he does this with his elbow or something, I would bring it to the hitters, not like this is a tip and you guys have to act on. I'd be like, can you see this? Is this something that's useful to you? And ask them and and and give them the opportunity to decide for themselves rather than sort of tell them. I remember there was a tip that was that somebody discovered on social media that they were very sure about. It was Padre's picture, and I forget what the tip was a better or so. It was something about like his mouth before before he threw sliders, and this person was very sure of it because he'd shown that in these couple of days that like, you know, he was he was he was doing this weird thing with his mouth before sliders. But then I was like, okay, let me just look at a random game and use this idea. And I couldn't replicate it in a random game. So maybe one day he was doing this weird thing with his mouth, but that doesn't mean he does it every time. So yeah, I think that the social media aspect is interesting. I mean it's really exploded on social media. It's like kind of the jamboification to some extent, where like everyone's like, oh, I've got this figured out. You know, he does he you know, he blows a bubble before he throws every slider. You know, sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not.

00:06:47
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00:07:48
Speaker 3: You knows.

00:07:48
Speaker 5: Here's a couple of things on what you just said. One, if a guy was tipping, you had to get it early, okay, It had to be before he picks up his leg before he goes. Yes, you can get tips off mouths. There was a bunch of guys that tip. You'll hunt. Santana tiped to his mouth for a while, so he started chewing gum. He would do different things, so, yes, that was a real thing. Tyler Clipper did that with his mouth. I hit a home er off on one time because he would go on fastball, stick.

00:08:13
Speaker 3: His tongue out on change up. But you could see it.

00:08:14
Speaker 5: It was early, right, So those things matter. My question is is okay? Patrick Bailey I know this, and I'm not the old guy on my law and get off my.

00:08:23
Speaker 6: Long guy at all.

00:08:24
Speaker 3: I love the new age way to play. Well, why doesn't anybody go out there?

00:08:28
Speaker 5: And we've had this conversation on here before, Like Crawts will tell you, if there was a guy we even thought was given anything, Catcher would walk out.

00:08:34
Speaker 3: To the mountain.

00:08:35
Speaker 5: You act like you're picking up the rosenbag or talking to your picture, and you're not even talking to your picture.

00:08:38
Speaker 3: You're talking to the guy at second base and you say, hey.

00:08:41
Speaker 5: Look, I don't know if you're giving anything or not, but if you move on the next pitch, the guy at the plate is gonna get one, okay. And the easiest way to do is you go out your picture and say all right, I'm gonna call Slider and you throw it up and in and you watch the hitters reaction. He'll tell you if the guy's given him location. Right, But how come it isn't police differently? You know, we got guys out there waving their hand, even if they're just messing with the picture, they're making it so obvious that it's like, how do we not police this better?

00:09:06
Speaker 3: As a sport?

00:09:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I came up with Jazz a little bit. Jazz was was showing off a tip against the Braves and he kind of was like flapping his arms at second base, and you know, the Braves coaching staff let him have it, and it became an issue after the game. And so to some extent, I think, you know, that was some policing without having to hit Jazz, or at least kind of making Jazz answer questions after the game and kind of pointing out that he looked silly out there, you know, flapping his arms around and stuff. But maybe you know, Jazz hadn't planned it and he just spotted a tip on the fly and he didn't know what to do, so he just started flapping his arms, you know, like I wasn't there for you know, the pregame meeting. I doubt they were like, Jazz, if you get a tip, flap your up the arms that have been down like an eagle.

00:09:58
Speaker 6: You know.

00:10:00
Speaker 2: So I can't answer that one for you, because you know, I haven't been in those shoes. But sometimes it looks ridiculous, and you know, with the PA has thing, you know, for him to say afterwards, I wasn't tipping, and he wasn't like giving pitch types like he probably was trying to convey some sort of information or getting someone's head. So I don't know that he was completely truthful in his comments afterwards either, But you know, nobody wants to give it away an edge at this point this season, especially.

00:10:27
Speaker 6: For sure, and every pitch matters. So if you get something for one pitch, that could be what swings a series and you go home or you stay there. Let's talk about pitches. Let's talk about what she wrote about starting or different pitchers leaning on pitches that they normally didn't lean on throughout this postseason.

00:10:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been pretty amazing. I looked it up even show hire Tani.

00:10:51
Speaker 4: Show here.

00:10:52
Speaker 2: Tani in his start yesterday through more curveballs than he had in any start ever except for one. So he basically was like, hey, you guys, are your keyed in on my splitter and my fastball? Here's the card ball. Blake Snell threw more change ups than he ever had in a start. As I pointed out, Uh, Schlitler went to more sinkers. You know, there's also like they're changing over time. Schlitzler was throwing more sinkers late in the season, so that might just been more comfortable with the sinker. But Nick Povetto was going to with two strikes, was going to the fastball almost twice as much as he did during the regular season. Schoobl had a ninety two on our slider, so he went heavy on that. Matt Boyd in his first start in the wild card threw more changeups than fastballs. He you know, he didn't do that all year. And it goes, you know, hand in glove with another. You know, I love I love like researching baseball because so many times old school stuff like comes flips around and people accuse, Oh, the nerds just figured out that, like having more pitch types is great. I mean, yeah, okay, But what really happened was we went through all these different ways where we're like, oh, hey, throw your best pitch most often. That's how you succeed, you know, throw your fast one slider, Just throw those most of the time if those are your best pitches. But we've come back around now and the newest thing in vogue is to throw lots of pitches. So pitches have gone from pitchers have gone from throwing four uh pitches pitches on average starting pitches. We're throwing four pitch types on average four years ago. Now it's five, and that's I know that's only one pitch, but that's a kind of a big deal to go for the average that much. So now the average pitcher is throwing five pitch types. And what you can do if you throw five pitch types? You come to October and you say, here's that one pitch that you guys didn't prepare for and I'm gonna throw the heck out of it.

00:12:38
Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw a.

00:12:39
Speaker 2: Ton of them and you're not gonna be ready for it. So there's so much advanced scouting, there's so much thought process going into so many meetings. So much of this is like what do you do last time we saw them? What do we do in the what do you do in September? And if you can be like, oh, here's this one thing I haven't done all year that I saved for this moment, it seems to have worked really well, and I think it's it's it's almost a troll job. Pitchers are trolling the opposite offense right now by using a pitch that they don't usually use.

00:13:08
Speaker 6: A lot.

00:13:10
Speaker 5: You know, I covered Schooble last night out in Seattle, and you mentioned he wasn't throwing his change up, but that was on purpose because they the Mariners hit his change up.

00:13:20
Speaker 3: So he tried to go away from it.

00:13:21
Speaker 5: He still got a ton of outs with it last night, and he gave up a homeer on a slider, so maybe he should have gone to the change up, but that was on purpose, right, And he still punched out nine, walked one, and gave up like four hits and obviously the two homers. But some of this is game planning and some of it is, Hey, what did the Mariners hit Againstchooble in the past, and.

00:13:38
Speaker 3: They tried to go away from it.

00:13:39
Speaker 5: But I'm going to tell you this right now, Terrek Scouogle's change up is the number one valued pitch in all of baseball.

00:13:44
Speaker 3: You can't take that away. It's the best pitch in baseball. You still got to throw it. I don't care what this kind of reports.

00:13:49
Speaker 5: So yes, you might lessen it a little bit trying to do other things, but at the end of the day, he still got to go with the pitcher strings.

00:13:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting idea to talk about, because even when you're talking about Nick Pavetta like flipping up his fastball usage. So part of that was on curves that move like pavettas the Cubs this year slugged seven fifty and they saw the most pitches like that all year in terms of movement and velocity. So yeah, to some extent, he didn't want to get stuck using the curveball in any predictive way, you know, in any predictable way, because then they would they would hit it well, and they'd shown that, so that was part of flipping over to the fastball. Now they've also hit the fastball well. But and he didn't stop using the curveball. To your point, like it's not you know, he can't. He can't get through a game without using the curveball. So there is a tension between your strengths and the opponent's weaknesses. But I just found it interesting that, like, you know, we have these advanced scouting you know, plans where people are like they're going to do this and this, and now you know, there's being a big rise in self scouting. So you know, I was first turned onto this where a pitcher, a pitching coach was telling me every time my pitchers faced the Dodger, it seems like they're totally ready for our pitching plan. And he's like, I think that they're just really good at self scouting. So they say, how would I get Freddy Freeman out if I was the opposing team? And now I go to Freddy and I say, they're likely to do X, Y and Z because I looked at your numbers and I put together game plan on how to get you out. And so Freddy can be like, and you can go to the plate anticipating how they would get him out, So this would be okay. Well, no one's advanced scouting my curveball, Shohatani. They're thinking all about the slider and the splitter and the fastball. So the curveball is a wrinkle that I can bring into this game that they probably didn't do a lot of scouting around all.

00:15:39
Speaker 6: Right, last quick one here before September fourteenth, because Trey Savage got called up on September fifteenth. Did anybody see his stuff, his profile, his metrics as being as dominant as he's shown, and if so, what heck did the Jays not call him up before this?

00:16:01
Speaker 2: You know? I think that's almost I think this fits into our what we're talking about here. I think they didn't want anyone to see him. I think they didn't want I think this was their surprise, and one of the first surprises I remember, Like this is Francisco Rodriguez in two thousand and two being added to the postseason roster and just blowing up the league. Man he had one of the best postseasons of all time, and nobody had seen him before, and it was electric, and nobody had scouting reports. They hadn't stood in against him, and it was obvious. So I think, to some extent, you hide you Savage. The other part is, I mean the stuff metrics always liked him. But what's interesting about your Savage is it's so unique. I mean, he's a little bit like Jonah Tong, He's a little bit like Jeremiah Strada. These are very over the top, sixty degree arm angle guys with a lot of ride on their fastball. The thing that may see a Savage different is he throws a slider with armside movement. There are only four pitchers in baseball who throw armside movement sliders like that. Dory Moretta is one of them. It's not a list of pitchers, you know. But that's the thing that separates him is first of all, it's extremely over the top, great ride, good vlow, good command on the fastball, really good splitter. And then there's just this weird slider you know, that's like backup slider that doesn't look like anything else. So, you know, I think he's just really strange. It's probably really uncomfortable. Even if you went and sat in on the traject I don't think that you get the full feeling of somebody that has an extreme arm angle like this.

00:17:31
Speaker 1: That's fallsy because you got to make the playoffs, got to win the division, get the buye, do the whole thing. So you want a guy up to win games. But hey, now you got him, it's your secret weapon.

00:17:39
Speaker 6: Go for it. You know.

00:17:40
Speaker 1: This was great man. Really appreciate the time. Again, they did talk about you Savage on Rates and Barrels months back.

00:17:46
Speaker 3: That's how I found out about him.

00:17:48
Speaker 1: And you can dial into his articles in The Athletic, including the one that we were talking about. A lot to get to there. You know, thank you, we'll talk soon.

00:17:55
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

00:17:57
Speaker 1: Our playoff coverage for the next few weeks is all presented by Fox One shout out to them and the new app and streaming service where you can get yourself a seven day free trial at foxone dot com. So, for example, if you're like, I don't have anything else, but I want to watch the playoffs, then you can watch AJ and Adam and Adam do their game, and then eventually obviously the CS and the World Series as well. Oh you Aj, We're gonna watch you even if we can't.

00:18:28
Speaker 3: Right, we have another thought. We were in commercial. I was like, well, I didn't realize this is live. I know, Sorry, this is the commercial.

00:18:37
Speaker 5: You get MLB obviously in the playoffs because Fox rules MLB playoffs. I think you get Big Noon, which is their big college football show. I don't know if you can get the NFL on there, but yeah, you get games. Oh well, then how do you not have Fox one? I have Fox One. I watch it all the time. I need to watch a game. People are complaining they couldn't find the game. If you have Fox one, there it is boom.

00:18:56
Speaker 3: It's easy.

00:19:05
Speaker 1: Pick your poison brand new series on FT. So your team's not in it, who do you root for? We're going to highlight certain franchises and talk more about the organization and the people around them, and see if you're going to buy into rooting for them. We're going to start with the team that had the best record in baseball this year and they have never put together a World Series title, the Milwaukee Brewers. Aj why should some rogue fans switch allegiances temporarily from a team that's not in it and root for the Brewers the rest of the way.

00:19:43
Speaker 5: Think about this for a second, because their fun at hell to watch, and the crowd is awesome, and they have the craziest manager in the game, crazy like a fox, though, and Pat Murphy says things, does things that are a little bit off base, but his players get them, and if you talk to him, he really knows baseball. Just the way they play kind of an old school baseball. And if you're into that, and you're into guys at bunt and guys that take first the third, and guys that can cover ground defensively and good pitching, then the Brewers are your team. And one through nine that there are some of parts over over stars, but for me, they're just a fun team to watch, and Murph and the way he handles it, did you guys see Murph the other day when they scored like nine in the first two, they showed him in the dugout and he just had that little i hate to say this little crap eat and grin where.

00:20:27
Speaker 3: He was just like the first time ever.

00:20:30
Speaker 5: You never see Murph smile during a game, but he just had that little grin and then Craig councils over in his dugout just stress. And so I just think they're a fun team to watch, and Murph is great, and you know, they got some gimmicks, but they make them work.

00:20:43
Speaker 6: I'm gonna say to follow this team because your team is not in the playoffs. Pirates, Reds, your teams are not in the playoffs right now. Cardinals, your teams are not in the playoffs. If you're a small market, you need to follow this team. And this is the team should choose because their organization, year in year out, puts a team out on the field that can win, and then they get behind them as an organization and say, okay, this is what you need, this is what you're good at, and they get the most out of their players. They don't make any more money than any of the other small market teams. They're actually the smallest TV market in baseball until Vegas comes into town. But that's the way that you can get on board with this team. You can get on board with how each of these guys were not necessarily the first pick by other teams. You can get on board with the fact that they got the DFA bullpen. I guess it's not as much this year, but it's a bunch of guys that have been put together and they figured out how to win. Oh and they figured out how to win more than everybody else in Big League Baseball.

00:21:52
Speaker 1: It's a great call. You know who I'm thinking about too in the mix here, Christian Yelich did sign one of those big boy contract. So if you're a fan of a small market team and you're like, my team won't sign up my dude for a long period of time because my owner's complaining, then you look over at Milwaukee and you say, successful, they win games, attendance, because they win games enough money to sign a franchise player, And that's Yelich coming over from another team.

00:22:21
Speaker 3: Right.

00:22:21
Speaker 1: If you get somebody early on like Jackson Curio, who already looks like a star player in our sport at a very young age, then you can wrap them up for a long period of time. I think the Brewers make many other fan bases jealous. Aj they even make big market owners very jealous. Why because then they turn to their front office executives and say, how come they're doing that with this and you guys get all the resources and you can't beat them.

00:22:49
Speaker 5: See David Stearns in the Mets at the present moment, Steve going in to send out an apology letter after they didn't make the postseason. By the way, it looks like there's a lot of rooms buying me, it doesn't it with all the doors and also, as Jeremy pointed out, it is the best tailgate city in Major League Baseball.

00:23:04
Speaker 3: I mean they get there.

00:23:05
Speaker 5: Hours before the game and they have and if you can just walk outside the stadium, you smell the brats and everything grill burgers on the grill.

00:23:14
Speaker 3: It is a great smell. So they also do that right.

00:23:17
Speaker 5: And they have one of the best logos in the game. And they have two mascots. They have Bernie Brewers Slide, but barrel Man gets very underrated as a mascot. Let's not forget barrel Man and what they do there.

00:23:31
Speaker 6: I want to hit on Yelich because I played with him the year he won the MVP and then they locked him up after that. As a small market organization, you have to you can't miss on these types of signings. You can't miss when spending two hundred million dollars on one player. So to me, it's all about how that player is going to act when things are good and when things are bad. And Christian Yelich couldn't be somebody who is more every single day ready to prove that this contract wasn't a fluke. It wasn't a fluke, wasn't somebody something that he shouldn't have gotten. So when your small market doesn't want to lock up a guy like Christian Yelich, you're really you're losing so much value for the organization. Yelly almost feels bad that he got the contract. He knows he's a good player, but he almost feels bad that he's getting paid this much and he wants to go out every single day and prove it. When he was hurt, he was like, the worst part is that I'm not out there with the boys. When he wasn't playing well, he was like, you know what, it's okay. I'll turn it around because I'm out there every single day and they can see that I'm not one hundred percent, but it means more to be out there every day and playing with the boys. And now he's fully healthy or as fully healthy as Christian Yelich needs to be. And he's a freaking lynchpin of that lineup right now, and they all kind of follow suit behind him, and they all he's that leader. That's not that you know, maybe outward leader that some people think, but in that clubhouse, he sets that tone and he sets that environment.

00:25:14
Speaker 1: I'll also give credit to the team for valuing their broadcasters. They have some really good broadcast talent and they stick around there clearly for a reason. Brian Anderson, Jeff Levering, and the legend in a class of his own, Bob Buker, who was a brilliant game caller, a brilliant ambassador of our sport, funny as hell, and look, he spends a good chunk of his life calling Milwaukee Brewer games.

00:25:38
Speaker 3: So there is a lot.

00:25:39
Speaker 1: I mean, if you haven't been to a game out there, and I would definitely advise it's it's a really fun experience. The people that you're around from a fan base perspective, are special, so it makes sense. And it's not like we're just you know, doing the Milwaukee Brewers kool aid drinking session here right now. AJ We're going to do this for some other teams as well. But I think this is so the way to work at things.

00:26:01
Speaker 3: Oh and they're easy to work with.

00:26:03
Speaker 5: Mike Vasalo, their their PR guy is great, even though he you know, he doesn't show up sometimes because he had his appendix out, Like come on, Basalo be better than that, right, But you forgot rock there. They're an analysts who's there a lot. He's great to listen to. There's just a lot of things that are good. Sophia Menner and one of their other you know that that translates for some of the Spanish Spanish players is awesome. The people just are really nice when you walk through the ballparking plus, I mean, I mean there is I'm not quite on the crats, you know, full bandwagon with the Brewers, but I will say this, I've got to go down the slide, We've got to run in the sausage race. It's it's a pretty cool place, Milwaukee and the town.

00:26:40
Speaker 3: It's sneaky good.

00:26:41
Speaker 5: If you know where you're going, it is sneaky good. I was there last weekend and they were having october Fest. And let's just say there might have been some some old beers thrown down by me.

00:26:52
Speaker 1: They have a few of those out there in Milwaukee.

00:26:55
Speaker 3: Yep. They got a lot of fests. They got a lot of fests in Milwaukee. Concerts.

00:27:00
Speaker 5: It's a sneaky great music scene too. Everybody goes to Milwaukee to do their concert mm hmm.

00:27:05
Speaker 3: That's true.

00:27:06
Speaker 5: Sneaky sneaky good golf too, by the way, sneaky good.

00:27:09
Speaker 1: Golf for a little longer and then and then no.

00:27:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I'm not there in the winner, so I don't really care about this now.

00:27:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't have a great football team. I'm not a big fan of their football team. But the rest of it.

00:27:27
Speaker 1: If you like this segment, let us know in the comments, and if you want us to bring up another team in the postseason mix, then we can do that.