Self Care. Ep 86

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode eighty six. Today we're mostly going to be talking about self care. That phrase we see all over the place these days. What does it mean? Is it important? Are we doing enough of it? Should we do more? Is it just one more thing to feel guilty about? So, Sarah, what have you done lately in the name of self care? What is self carely? What does gonna say? Don't you think we need to begin with with the with the definition? So I actually look this up on Wikipedia, as I look up all things these days, and it says any necessary human regulatory function which is under individual control, deliberate and self initiated interesting. You gotta wonder, like, who are these people who are writing this stuff for Wikipedia, like on a voluntary basis that decided that was the definition of self care. And the truth is, like, I'm not sure everybody means the same thing when they say self care. So I think it could be probably multifaceted depending on who's talking about it. Plus self care for someone, you know, the bar might become lower if you're not usually having autonomy in your day to day activities. Those of you with children know what I'm talking about that time, most of you. So I do think that self care is really kind of relative, perhaps because I never would have considered, for example, eating a meal uninterrupted self care, but now sometimes it does feel that way, yes, or taking a shower. It depends what you're Yeah, I at this point, I'm like, I'm over the shower. All my kids are over age four, Like I can shower without you know, usually anything exploding in the house. So that that is out of the realm of like self care. Now that's just you know what you do, which is great, you know, it's it's nice when you have reached that point where self care, do you still feel like you appreciate it like, do you think about you know, I'm showering now and this is nice interrupted time and I or do you not did it wear off? Well, it's funny how how quickly we become used to things. And I wasn't thinking about my shower this morning because you know, people know about my renovation over the past year, and we got our master bathroom completely redone and then in the course of this, the shower was pretty much like not working, like it was this trickle of I think I used the phrase prison yard shower, which was just really a not fun shower experience, if you can imagine. That's terrible. Yeah, Like at one point I would just stop washing my hair cause I just like I can't deal with it anymore. But when we got it fixed, it was like, you know, the heavens opened up, you know, the angels are coming down in the form of lots of water pressure. And then it was great, you know, and I was like loving it for like three days, and then now I don't even think about it. So today this morning, I'm showering and I'm like, I'm in the shower and all of a sudden, I'm like, do you remember that four months ago showering was this horrible experience. You're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I remember this, So, you know, I guess I try to remind myself. That's one way to turn more things into self care as actually to remind yourself of stations of you know, kids, you actually have it. Yeah, I guess it's a little you know, like that hedonic treadmill that you hear about. Right, So we take things for granted that, you know, a few steps back would have been felt as miraculous. Yeah. True. Well, and so you you recently went on a weekend trip that oh my god, we took self care to the extreme last weekend. Yeah, and I think sometimes it's worth doing. As we'll get into during this episode, but we did a date weekend, our first since Jenevie was born, so the weekend featured I actually kicked it off with the one of my you know, ultra self care acts as getting massages, which I don't do terribly often, so when I do, they definitely feel like true self care, mostly because there's no phone and I'm just doing something completely selfish. And so did that, and then the next day we left for Nashville. We had like a nice weekend together. It was. It was less than forty eight hours, but it was enough to feel like a getaway. It was enough to include two mornings of sleeping as late as we wanted to, which was amazing. But how light did you sleep? Well? There was a time difference because it was Nashville, so it was one hour different, but it was like eight am Nashville time, which means like nine am. Wow, which really, like, that's pretty pretty impressive for you. This is the lady who like is up by five am every morning exactly. So No, it felt pretty luxurious and it really did feel like self care. Mostly. I think the keyword was autonomy. It was like no one's control, Like I have no responsibilities, I'm not answering to anyone, no one needs me. I'm doing what I want. I could have been doing almost nothing. I mean, we spend a lot of time just like reading, but it didn't matter. It was it was about having that chunk of time and we certainly you know, if we did that every weekend, it probably wouldn't feel like self care. It wouldn't feel so special, it wouldn't be something that I felt like we needed. But I think part of it being such a rare occurrence made it feel that way. Yeah, well that's I mean, that's the thing too. We were talking about that, the hedonic treadmill, and like where your sort of level is of what is self care and what's just life? Because you think about you know, when you and Josh are first married, like spending the weekend together was just like if you weren't working, that's what you were doing, right, Like that was not a particularly crazy thing to have happen. But then you know, add three kids into the mix, and it rises to the level of something that that feels more indulgent and adding into the bucket. I don't know what. There's all these metaphors for like energy and where your self you know, I don't even know all the words, but you know, how full is your bucket for instance, or you know, charging your battery all these other things. So yeah, I mean, so we read about self care all the time on social media and stuff, and we've we've definitely it's based on this good idea that we need to monitor our energy levels and add to our energy levels and do things that are are fun for us. But there's this sort of structure sometimes a lot of it has on social media. It's like, oh, I'm I'm doing so much for everyone else and I just have to carve out a little bit of time for self care and the world doesn't want me to do it, but I'm gonna do it. Like I don't know why we always need to be an opposition to someone on social media, but that's just definitely the same I think is it's a story. It's a story you must be So I'm so oppressed that I was able to publish, you know, fifteen Instagram stories over the last three hours. So I need my self care. I now need to put my feet up and have some self care. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And my story just sort of played right into that narrative, right, you know, like, oh, I'm usually with my three children and I got to But I know what you're saying. Sometimes it can be it can be a little bit over the top. I don't know if that's the sharing of the self care or the self care itself. I think it might be more about the sharing. I think it's more about the sharing of the self careself that it has to be done as this opposition to the world which does not want you to take care of yourself. Probably the world doesn't care. I mean I've sort of recognized that with my own life that you know, you should just do what you want because truly nobody else is noticing or paying any attention. Yeah. I like that. That's like a quote I was going to quote that for the episode. Do what you want to do, you want it to do and the world doesn't care. Yeah. Yeah, so it doesn't. Don't have to think of it as an opposition or anything. You're just doing what you want to do. But I mean, so in a normal week, like when you're not going to Nashville with Josh, which clearly you know this is the first time you've done a weekend get away in what twenty Yeah, there's like self care and then there's like ultra treat I mean I sort of you know, I was dividing them up as I wrote this up and into like self care and then like treats. You know that was like a treat, and then they are the run of the mill things that we do that are just everyday self care. What about what are you Well I'll get into mind, but what are you what are your self care? I just talked about, Well, I definitely get enough sleep, whenever I can, and so for me, sometimes it's about getting in bed very early, which is not as early as I would like to sometimes, but I have to get the older kids in their beds, and I've been working on doing it more rapidly, Like so lights out is ten, but they are very good about dragging it out with various rituals that like, oh wait, nobody brushed their teeth prior to ten, How did that happen? We got to go brush teeth now? And then oh well, my stuffed animals, I gotta go find them all and stack them up, and oh well, you know, come back in one more time for this, and it can wind up taking like twenty minutes. And I was just like, come on, and I'm trying to get to bed too, So I've been trying to make move it slightly faster and start slightly before ten, so that the light can actually go out at ten, which gives me is really late. That doesn't give you enough time for any kind of wind down, no, which so then I can I have a fighting chance of getting in bed at ten thirty if they are you know, lights out at ten, you know, otherwise it's it's more like eleven and that can squeeze me on the other end if Alex wakes up at five thirty. So I'm trying to I'm aiming more for ten thirty at least during the week. But this past weekend, you know, we're recording this in the beginning of March or later in March. But this past weekend, I was on my own for the weekend with the four kids, and I actually got in bed very early because I just sort of told the boys, like I wasn't I didn't care if the older boys went to bed, so I just told them to turn out their own lights, and then I went to bed like nine forty five one night, which felt great because then Alex didn't wake up till I'm like six thirty, so it's got like, you know, nine plus hours of sleep. But partly it's like when my husband wasn't there right like, so normally I wouldn't have done that because I would have hung out with him then for you know, weekend evenings or even weekday evenings if he's home, I tend to you know, hang out with him during that time. So it's sometimes a self care is in opposition to the couple time. The other thing I do is run. I think that being good about physical activity is a form of self care in the sense that it adds to my energy levels, and so I make time to run every day no matter what, and so far I've been able to stick with that. In some days i'm a little I feel I've been feeling a little resentful of it, but other days it's great. So that is spoken like a true upholder there, resentful of your own, of my own craziness. Yeah, it's only like one day a week that I feel. And then I'm like, well, why am I complaining about one day a week where I'm only going to run like a mile and a half. That's just silly. Why would I complain about that? That's true, it's a good minute. At least you have a very reasonable minimum. Let's talk about massages, because massages are that the cliche self care. Do you find them to be self care? Because I know it's kind of a love hate thing with massages. I mean I do get them every month or so I sign up for that massage and the monthly membership thing, so you get you know, one a month at like a for the price of your membership, which is well under what a massage would you would normally pay at a you know, one off sort of situation. I've been thinking of its somewhat as as injury prevention because I don't actually I kind of like really intense massage, like the deep pressure kind of, because then sometimes it's actually slightly painful, so that I don't know, if you know, I think it's more about like injury prevention for muscles and things like that. But I don't know. I guess that counts as self care because it is the cliched self care thing I don't do. Curious. I don't want people touching my feet like you do. You do, but you said that's part of living in Miami, you have to. Yeah, Plus I like people, like people. No, I have no problem with people touching my feet, So yeah, to me that it feels somewhat into anything that kind of I puts me in a situation where I'm really not going to do work and I feel like I'm doing something for myself, and that even includes things like the dentist or I don't know. Yeah, it's and maybe that is a post kids thing, but if it just feels like it's for me and it also takes me away from sort of outside pulls. Then it tends to feel like self care for me. So pedicures definitely fall in that realm, but getting them, even my like five hour hair ordeal, feels like self care, and I try to, I try to. You know, that's a mindset too, right. I could I could treat it as oh, this annoying thing. I have to drive all the way out here, I have to like empty my bank account. But no, Instead, it's like I get to do this. It gets to do my hair look good for six seven months or good ish, good enough, and I'm stuck in one place so I can read, and I get to have someone massage my head and put their the shampoo in and whatever like it. A lot of it, I guess is mindset. But that kind of stuff has come to definitely feel like self care for me. Yeah, whether well, I think that mindset aspect of it is is key, right, because you could just like get there and do your you know whatever. It's Japanese or Brazilian. I forget which which country means always Japanese Japanese is not Brasili, got it? Nope, that you could just be like cleaning out your inbox. The whole time, Right, it'd be like I've got five hours to like get through this, but instead you're sort of reading and thinking of it as being this more away from the rest of life experience, right, correct, Correct, Yeah, Yeah, I guess that's the I mean, I can't look at my email and massage. I think the pedicure things a few times I've gotten them or manicure with other people because it's a group activity that you are doing because the group is doing it. I always just feel like I don't know it means to an end for you, and you feel like, I guess you're bored. I'm bored, and so I'm always trying to make sure i'm like right next to somebody that I want to talk to or in the group, because otherwise I'm just I don't want to relax and just have it happened. No, it's so interesting, so that there you go, this is like clearly not an objective thing, the exact same thing, and we approach it. Yeah. I also don't necessarily feel like making doctor's appointments feels like self care at all. I kind of feel like I don't not making the appointments, but going to like if I'm like, oh, I'm gonna what I mean, maybe not if we're getting a little close to the as when you think about like, oh I have to go to my ob G, I n is that is that self care? I don't know. Going to the doctor as an adults is it's just no fun and we don't even get up. You don't even get a prize boy afterwards. Care need to be fun. Kids go to the dentist and they get the prize box. I don't that's true. You get like maybe it can have like little little bottles of vodka and or something the airplane ones. That would be awesome. That would be awesome. All right, So early mornings though, for you at your workouts, I mean you you would put exercise sort of exercises like I mean, in the hierarchy of self care, exercise probably goes first for me, and maybe sleep as number two. Oh really yeah, and probably reading is number three or maybe reading slash. I don't know. Time to like sit there and just I consider my time where I sit there and plan on my day even to be self care because the truth is like if I don't protect that time, then it's gone and I could still kind of go about my day without doing that, but then it doesn't end well, and all I get very anxious because a lot of the loose ends will then fall through the cracks and then they pile up on me. And so that I mean, maybe that's also sort of stretching the definition, But those minutes I spend kind of triaging and planning feel like self care to me as well. Exercise is huge, though, And if I have a day where I, you know, meant to exercise and didn't and then or woke up late and kind of missed my whole morning and it wasn't a planned thing, I it's very hard for me to recover from that. So having a morning it puts you in a negative mood all day. It always puts me in like a defensive mood all day, like instead of setting things up and then prioritizing and answering my needs like exercise and that kind of thing, it's sort of like, well, now I just have to answer to the war. It's like, I don't know, it's it's so that I'm fill your well first, right, and then and then you're there. It's a you know, yeah, it's it's that, but it's also it's it's it's like a positioning kind of a thing like it. I man, I'm not articulate this morning, but I do feel like it. Yeah. It puts me on the offensive for the day instead of the defensive, and that makes a world of difference. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing with morning routines, right, that it's something you do for yourself before the rest of the world wants a piece of you. And when you are caring for three small children, and you know, then at work caring for numerable small children, you know, it's it's the same thing you are giving out of this is so you need to do the thing for you first. I mean, that's that's definitely the whole point of a morning routine. And I often get asked about this because not that I have a great morning routine or anything, but you've really on it studying other peoples. But the good ones are that it's not about like drinking the kill juice just to do it or to have you know, look at me. I can meditate for an hour, run a marathon before breakfast. It's it's all about doing something that starts the day well. And so if for you that's you know, reading something amazing. I've actually been trying to start my days some with that that if I'm up early, because I hopefully it's because I went to bed early and so I'm waking up naturally relatively early, but sometimes it's just that Alex has woken me up, and then it's you know, enough close to the amount of sleep I need that I'm not going to try to go back to bed. I'll get up, make my coffee and then sit and read a book. And it's great if I'm like, oh, look, I get thirty forty minutes before I need to be in the shower before then the day starts and I feel like I've really gotten something good, and you know, part of me is like, oh, oh oh, I should be doing my exercise or I should you know, work, and I'm like, well, you know, this is somewhat of found time. And the point of a morning routine is to do something that feels good for you. And if I don't feel like running in the morning because that's not what I actually feel like doing when it comes down to it, then that's that's what I should do. So I've been trying to do that. That sounds nice, Yeah, like that's more of my evening thing. My reading time is the like, okay, and actually, well this is a digression, but my daughter has now gotten to the point where she enjoys reading, so it's actually like, this is a huge milestone that I should appreciate now. I put Genevieve to bed, Cameron still just kind of passes out on his own. I give them a book with a light, and then I read in their room my own book while she's reading. And so I'm no longer like impatiently scrolling my phone or waiting for them to go to sleep. I get to do something for myself and I'm enjoying it. And I guess that's I mean, it's not self care, but I gotta be careful not to forget that a mirror a couple of months ago, I didn't get that time. So it is amazing how the time opens up. I've been trying to remind myself of that's a lot as I'm like airing out after years of baby dumb, and it's really a wonderful feeling. But speaking of the baby dumb thing, a major thing I mean for self care to work. I mean, one of the reasons I think that people feel like they don't have enough time for it, or that you know there is time, but it's often spent like on Instagram, because that's what's easiest to do. Is if you have small children, then often somebody needs to be with them for you to have this adult self initiated a time, or they have to be asleep, or they have to be asleep, but both of which are options, right. I mean, certainly kids do sleep, you know, it may not feel like it when they're they're five months old or something, but eventually they do sleep to some degree, and so that's time you can have. And I'm certainly a big fan of. You know, if you are, for instance, a home with small kids during the day, using nap time for some sort of self care thing and not using nap time for doing chores, which is just the way of misery and martyrdom. So don't do that, you know, consciously using that first maybe thirty forty five minutes after the kids are asleep for something fun for you. Even if you are like feeling like you should clean the kitchen and pick up the toys, like maybe just don't do that and go read for thirty month it's instead, or you know, go if your partner is home and it's like twilight, or your safe neighborhood, you could go walk outside for a little bit. Yeah. No, I mean, so time when they sleep is certainly one and that's when your morning happens. But childcare too, I mean, how have you sort of strategically used childcare to fit in self care one hundred percent? So I mean it's a balance, clearly. It's not like, oh, you know, every night I come home late and I never see my children. It's absolutely you know, it's the exception rather than the rule. But having those exceptions noted as something to look forward to and know that I have the option to do feels really nice and does feel like self care in my case because I work the eighty percent schedule, I have that one day a week currently where it's you know, I spend some of that time with the kids and that's purposeful, and then I spend some of that time for me and that's purposeful too. And whether you have that option or not, it might even be as simple as you know, twice a month knowing that you're going to have evening coverage either your partner or or babysitter or something. But knowing that you have that time and can keep it as yours and choose what to do with it, can feel I would say, disproportionately good in terms of self care. You know, it's not that much of a financial or emotional investment. And trust me, the kids, you know, if you're putting them to bed thirteen out of fourteen nights out of a two week period, they are They're not mine. But it may actually make a huge difference if you're in that really tough stage with young kids where otherwise it's very hard to carve out a moment for yourself, or if you know you're in the kind of job where you don't have any times during those typical working hours to take for yourself to say, you know what, but evergether Tuesday evening is mine? It is mine. Yeah, now that's a great thing to do and have that for something that you enjoy. And yeah, as you were saying, I mean in the context if you're already paying for full time childcare, like four extra hours a month, it's just not that huge a deal. Yeah, And then the logistics are easy because you already have you know, a person. There are even some I feel like there's a trend towards some daycares and schools having like these parent night out things. Yeah, you can have the kids stay extra. You know, some of them are structured. Oh you just go out to dinner. But maybe your partner works late and you don't want to go out to dinner. But that's gonna be your like special workout time or your massage, or it could be a self care night as well, so you can think outside the box. Yeah, yeah, those are great when those are there that you know, they keep it open till eight o'clock or something or seven thirty, and yeah, that you can you can go out to dinner with that. So just doing that once a month can help as well, and that will be something you have. I would also suggest that for weekends. I mean, one of the reasons I think Sarah and I make sure to plan our weekends ahead of time is that when you have the logistics of lots of people and the things they have to do, making sure that you have time for your interests and your things that are going to make you feel rejuvenated. You can't leave it to chance. Like it's not gonna be like, oh wait, I have all this time on Saturday afternoon and I'm going to go to the spot. I mean, it's just not gonna happen. I mean, that's that's like And if you think that that's how leisure will happen, you will just never get it. And that's how people talk themselves into this idea of like, oh, once you're a parent, you have no free time whatsoever. You know, so obviously, if you have a partner, I think having a discussion of like how each of you can have some time for your own things on weekends. You know, so you can have a couple hours and your your partner can have a couple hours. But even if you are on your own, maybe working out something with a friend, like you trade off, you know that will do play dates, and you know, each weekend one of us hosts a play date and the other person can go do what they want to do during that time. Or you know a relative that maybe you have, you know, your grandma will be willing to come stay with the kids for two hours so you can go do something. But you know, it's just thinking about ahead of time and making sure that's in place, because otherwise you just never it's not going to happen by fault. It's never going to happen by default. So yeah, and of sometimes it can be about recasting time that you do have as well. And I will totally agree with this that sometimes if I'm in church, you know, for instance, and all the kids are elsewhere because they're in Sunday school or the nursery, just like, ah, I'm here by myself. You know, this is an hour where I mean, I'm singing, So I guess I'm volunteering technically, but I enjoy singing, so that's that's something that's good for me as well. So yeah, I like this idea of recasting it. I had put a tip in here about you know, it's just sort of thinking in terms of what energizes you and what doesn't because timing self care, like I think you would also do little bursts during the day in some cases, especially have a job that feels like really draining, which it could be that you're doing amazing, wonderful things like this isn't saying it's a bad job. It's just that there's certain activities we do that are intense and deplete you, and so you need to think about how you can add to your energy level. So if you track your time, which is a good idea for many reasons. You can go through and put a plus or a minus next to activities, or put you know, rate how you feel on a scale of one to ten, like how energized are you? Most people start the day with more energy. You have that first cup of coffee, you feel like you can take on the world. Somewhere around two thirty three o'clock you no longer feel like you can take out the world. You feel like you just have the energy to like stumble around and read the same email six times in a row. So you know, figure this out, because then maybe to thirty three o'clock in the afternoon, it is time to do something that feels good for you, whatever it is. You know, go outside for five minutes, go talk to a colleague or a friend or whatever. How do you do this during the time, Because I'm curious. I know you're more extroverted than I am, but I had to have extroverted, but I'm still completely drained after like a full day with patients or even so yesterday I had a really weird schedule. This week, I've had a really weird schedule. So instead of taking like a usual full day off, I've had two half days off, and instead of doing those in the afternoons that I would work in the morning and then kind of be free. I've been off in the morning. That's when we're recording this today, and yesterday I like took Cameron to this cute little pre kindergarten tour things. So anyway, so I've been working afternoon and afternoon and even that half day because I'm not I'm not as much of an afternoon person. It's totally draining. And I'm not saying that in any way. If my patients are listening, I'm not disparaging them. I love them all individually. I love what I do, but I am working really hard. I'm I'm answering to other people's expectations very I don't get a lot of breaks, you know. It's just sort of like one patient and they're done, I'm trying to finish my note and on the other patient. In a lot of days, if I'm there for the full day, I don't even really get a lunch break because I'm trying to finish my notes. And by the time I look up from my morning notes being done, it's twelve fifty and then oh, look, my one fifteen patient is already there. It's likeugh, So no, I don't get to engineer a lot of self care during my work days. I think that's why it is so important for me to have my mornings be the way I want them to be, because I know they're on a full patient day. There's not going to be a lot of other time. And then I do try to, you know, if I do have time to eat lunch, to eat with other people in a relaxed manner and squeeze it where I can. I have done the thing where oh someone's late, let me go walk around the block for a second, and that feels really good. It's sometimes it's feasible. It sometimes it's not. I'm less drained on days there are more kind of creating days. So if I'm working on stuff for the residency, and maybe I have a meeting but then I'm working on a presentation like that, that feels more broken up and doesn't leave me as desperate for those moments. But yeah, I can't imagine I but I have dealings with something of a conference or you know, anything like that, are a day full of phone calls. I'm always just like yeah afterwards, and having to do something to So, yeah, you have to be on, You have to pretty much be on. I mean that's I don't I can do it, and I'm thankful that. I don't know how an introvert would survive. I actually they choose a different specialty. Well, yeah, like my husband will be able to spend many hours, sometimes in the hour and not talking much. Yeah, he's doing a procedure. So even though he is doing performing a service for someone, and it's not like an autonomous time, it's not like he doesn't have to talk to the person. Yeah, yeah, this is slightly less draining of that. So that's true. Yeah, that is true. Well cool, all right, well shall we we moved to our question? Yeah, all right, and this is not a self care related question, that's okay. This was a little I don't know, we've we've gotten this question in different forms in a lot of areas, but I felt like this person worded it nicely, and we always like nicely worded questions. So yeah, all right. So this came from a listener, by the way, who is pregnant with her first and it's very excited about that. And she writes one aspect of the show, I love is that you both speak to an audience of women and families who are high performing and have access to many resources, example lots of childcare. I am personally thrilled to hear the side of being a working mom. I feel like so many books, podcasts, blogs, our old school and expect that's her words. I love it and expect moms to sacrifice everything about their life to be a parent. Both of you have creative ways to use your resources to make life not only work, but to make life very enjoyable. Do you ever get pushed back from listeners about being impossible for quote unquote normal families? Do you ever think about what you would do if extra child care wasn't an option? Basically, I'm asking how you had the guts to present this content in a world that is afraid of their own fos. Oh wow, I am just curious. You have both worked so hard in your careers to succeed and make your family lives enjoyable. I am so inspired to do the same. You want to go first? Well, of course we get pushed back, and I get pushed back about things I've written and blogged about too, And I don't know if if Sarah does as much. But I mean the reason we wanted to cover this stuff as we felt there was this gaping hole in the marketplace that most stuff aimed at moms is you know, done by people who are you know, the default is that you're like at home with your kids, are sort of working very sort of little. That it's there isn't a whole lot out there for people to especially people who are in jobs like Sarah's. I mean, there's a lot more in the sort of entrepreneurial space, but you know, jobs like Sarah's where you are in an office and you are doing things and there's not the same sort of flexibility even per se as as there would be within entrepreneurial life. And so we felt that that was missing, and also that there's not a lot of advice that is actually workable, that is aimed at women who do have resources. I know, when I was first a parent, like a lot of people would say things sort of like, well, you know, if you have a full time nanny that I mean, well, clearly everything's sorted out. And I can tell you from years of employing people that this you still have to think about things and there's you know, they don't you know, you still have to deal with logistics, and you know that. I think it's interesting how people organize their lives to deal with things like, well, what if both parents travel, what if both parents have unpredictable hours or longer hours, or you know, how do you deal with many children? And even if you do have resources, how can you best deploy those resources in order to buy yourself back time? And I feel like that was just not addressed out there, because so much of it is kind of judgmental about you know, like sometimes there's an it almost felt like shameful in a way to have these conversations, and especially in a sphere where the ideal seemed to be working a job that was maybe flexible, or at home where you're mostly a mom so you know, you're that was seen as I don't know about martyrdom, but almost just sort of like some old fashioned ideal, And I agree. I didn't feel like there was a space for people who really cared about their jobs and were doing a job where they did have means to i don't know, figure stuff out and do things the way they might want to do. But there just wasn't good examples for that. There weren't role models to look at. So I guess it's a little defensive, but we didn't necessarily create this podcast to be the answer for everyone everywhere, But we still felt like it was filling a gap. Like I found myself at birthday parties if I found a mom who was working and who had a partner who was working, and they had a lot of logistical successes, like a mom maybe with three kids, and I found myself fascinated. I wanted to hear, Okay, what do you do in the mornings? How do you put your kids bad? Who do you hire to do this? Who do you do this? Do you do this yourself? Partly because I just didn't have like a good picture of what that might look like, and again because I almost felt like people were hiding and that there was a little bit of shame associated with outsourcing certain things like not cooking dinner. For example, Everyone talks about cooking dinner, Nobody talks about not cooking dinner. So maybe I mean, I recognize that this is all privileged, but I also can't apologize for the standpoint that I'm in and the fact that I was interested in hearing you know more about women like me and sharing those experiences, and I wish that everybody had the means to hire as much childcare that they could want. And I do think Laura often points out that sometimes it makes sense to actually look at the earning side and see if you can get there, rather than looking at the other side and frugality and making things work. But I don't feel like that's the focus of our podcast either. It just you know, we talk about what works for us because we felt like it it was missing, and I think a lot of you enjoy listening. And I also will say, finally, and I think I've kind of said this before, that I listened to some podcasts that really don't like directly apply to me. But if I find the people interesting and I find that they present tips that can be relevant, it doesn't matter. So I hope that there's if you're not exactly in our scenarios, there's still something interesting to you. And if not, then that's okay too. That's why there are so many podcasts out there in the world. Yeah, I mean, we always have some good guests on who talk about different scenarios as well. And you know, I mean the person that put the way she put having the guts to present this content in a world that is afraid of their own affluence. I would feel like my work on this planet is done if women who have ambitiously pursued high paying jobs can like own that and feel good about it all right, Like you know, in Sarah's case, for instance, like she went to medical school, it's not like this was an unknown thing, right that, Like you know, going into medicine is a professional and generally relatively high paying job. She earned it, like she earned that degree. It's not that she magically found herself in this place. So it's I feel like it would be a good thing for people to acknowledge that, yes, we sometimes make choices that lead to certain outcomes. And I'm not saying that there aren't many wonderful jobs that you know, or for whatever reason, lower salaried, and I wish some of those were higher salaried. I wish I controlled the universe and I could make that happen. But on the other hand, I do think that professional women deserve to have resources to tell them how to live their best lives, and if we can be part of that, that would be great. And so hopefully this listener who's expecting her first child will come into a world where she can own her own professional power and what that will enable her to do to have the best of both worlds awesome. I feel like I have more to say and I don't even it's too it's almost too complicated. Maybe we'll have to have another episode or something or maybe not. Yeah, all right, our love of the week, our love of the week, let's just go to that. Yeah, live music concerts performances. I'm just going to give that generality because I feel like nothing kind of puts me more to use a tired phrase, in the moment than watching something happening live. I feel like younger and somehow more live when I see them, And so Josh and I both really enjoy this, and we're vowing to see more in the future. Yeah, that's a great thing, I think i'd say, like my love of the week. I didn't do any of this this week, but live music that's outside is really cool. Like, I love the idea of summer concert series. I know we've done some that we've gone. We went to a Brad Paisley concert. I was okay, this saw was gonna be two summers ago now, but it was a lot of fun. To go to this outdoor concert and you know, you're under the stars and summer sky temperatures and it's wonderful. And so there's a lot of summer concert series and we should do more of those. So oh, that could be my love of the week. Too awesome. All right, Well, this has been the best of both worlds. We've mostly been talking about self care. This is episode eighty six and we'll be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.