John Nutting; Treat Brain Disorders Like Any Other Illness

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one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome
to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide.
Before we jump in, if you haven't already, I invite
you to tap polow. It only takes a couple of
seconds and it helps this show reach more families who
need to hear these conversations. Thanks for being here. Welcome
to our special event, Crafting justice empowering autism and mental
health through legislation. Joining us today is John Nutting, a
former Maine State Senator who has spent time on the
front lines of government helping craft legislation that impacts mental
health services in the system families rely on. We're going
to talk about the realities of serious mental illness, the
challenges policy makers face in addressing it, and what meaningful
change would look like if we truly prioritize mental health
in our communities. It's going to be a great conversation.
Thanks for joining us today, that's.
All right, No no problem at all.
If you would give us a little information about yourself
in your background.
Well, I used to be a dairy farmer slash state legislator.
Looking back, I don't know how I did both, but
I was young and so was my wife. And the
Chief Justice of the Supreme Court main Supreme Court years
ago told me said, if a family tells me that
there's no brain disorders in their family, I know they're lying,
because biological it's in every family. And that's one of
the points we're trying to make here in Maine is
that if you have a disorder of any part of
your body that goes without saying that you're going to
treat that disorder, the same should be true for the brain. Absolutely,
and we've got millions of families torn apart by this
subject nationwide and bull of homelessness in jails and hospitals,
or went over and over again because one particular group
has this debate raging across the country. Well, it's their
right to be psychotic, right to be bipolar, right, and
that just assures that they're not going to have any
successes and may hurt somebody else and may hurt themselves.
It's just so unnecessary that a levels of melatonin and
serotonin in their brains are not normal. Sure, especially some
of the now newer medications help to restore those without
as many side effects as previous medications. Some progress is
being made there, well, that they can go on and
start to have some successes in their lives.
Sure, I know different states have different acronyms for this.
So what is the AOT law in the state of Maine.
Well, it's called the Progressive Treatment Plan. I was a
sponsor of it as a state senator way back in
two thousand and three. We've made some progress, but I
have to admit that it's been a twenty three year
battle to try to get the original law implemented as
it was written, was still not there yet. We've made
progress Bob Staples, who you met before, and I just
finished going to Augusta. In fact, we had the final
vote today on LD nineteen eighty nine and active and
increase access to the Progressive Treatment Plan Legal Fund, because
last year the Attorney General suddenly announced they weren't going
to represent all of the PTP hearings in front of
our judges, and so it left families really in alerts
that if they couldn't afford the attorney themselves, the loved
one was not going to extend. It is for a
one year term with one year extensions at a time
if they have a district court judge agreed to it.
Okay, Now, when lawmakers start crafting legislation for mental health,
what are the biggest gaps you see between the families
actual needs versus what policy is actually providing.
Well, I think there has to be more communication both ways,
and it's better than it used to be. But we've
had one group in Maine that has fought us on
the subject for twenty three actually twenty four years now,
the Disability Rights Center that don't like anything like this.
It's it's their right to be psychotic. They shouldn't have
their rights taken away by a court order, and you know,
blah blah bl like that. And of course, three quarters
of schizophrenics and maybe fifty percent of bipolar have awareness themselves.
They don't have this and a signosia lack of awareness.
And they the groups against aot and against the PTP
plan A Maine seem to have the thought that nobody
has an a signotia lack of awareness, that nobody needs
a cord order, And of course that's not the case.
You know.
I remember when I was living in the state of
Maine at that time, there was a big push for
smoking bands around the state in all the areas. I
had friends that were very heavy smokers. They would argue
that they had the right to smoke. I said, I
have the right not to breathe your smoke, right. I
don't understand what part of the Disability Act that they
just don't get. Maybe they have the right to be psychotic,
but we have the right to feel safe in our
own community.
We have the right not to pay millions and millions
of dollars to keep people in jails and hospitals all
their lives after they commit a crime because we didn't
help them with their lack of awareness by keeping him
on a treatment plan. You take the young man in
Westbrook last year that killed the young parents in front
of their children in their car. He had been on
a PTP plan and was off his treatment plan. He
was working with an intensive case manager who knew full
well about MAINZ PTP statute, could have filed the court
order to keep him on as treatment plan. That none
of that. So now the state domain is going to
pay about twenty one million dollars to keep him lifetime
in jail.
Yeah, I was told that the biggest hospital in the
country for serious mental illness is the La County prison.
If that is true, we really need to do something
to help these people that are incarcerated. Then merely putting
them through the court system and then ultimately in jail
is not helping. What is the root cause of this issue?
Just last week in front of the main legislature, the
head of the main Sheriff's Association said, we need more
funding because we're being forced to keep hundreds of people
in our county jails that should be out in the
community with supports or in a hospital, and we're just
warehousing them in the county jails.
Now in today's world, of course, has changed some since
you were in the Senate. Well, if you was advising
a senator or a representative for legislation that's happening this year,
what is it that you would prioritize to truly help
the lives of the individuals and of course their families
that we're trying to get these bills passed for.
I would have them, as we do for any other
medical condition. I would urge them to speak to the
medical professionals in the field, The psychiatrists, psychologists, the nurse practitioners,
the main nurses association all work on a daily basis
with individuals suffering from untreated brain disorders. And they're the ones. Well,
a nurse put it to me so eloquently just a
month or so, she said, this and a signotia lack
of awareness. People with Alzheimer's in dementia have the same
and a signosia. And we put them in facilities so
that we assure that those people received even the care
they do not realize they need. And yet where the
schizophrenic or anasignotia, we build a nice mental health facility
and say if you want to come see me, oh, oh, well,
come in, we'll help you, and they're never going to
come in. I don't need to be in a treatment plan.
You need to be in a treatment plan as they're
coming from. And so it's the same and a signotia,
whether the schizophrenic or an Alzheimer's, and yet we treat
them totally different.
Yeah, that is totally crazy in some states, and I'm
not sure where main falls on this particular issue. One
of the consistent problems I hear is there are never
enough beds in the state, and then of course they
get those beds, they need the funding to go through.
It seems like a vicious circle. My question, how do
we stop that circle so people can get the help.
The biggest single thing we could do so quickly, in
my opinion, is stop the person that's cycling over and
over over again and tying up hundreds of beds. I
heard of a young man in Maine that had forty
three hospitalizations before they finally put him on the PTP
plan six years ago. He's had none sense, and so
we're tying up an unbelievable amount of bedspace over and
over with these folks cycling over and over and over again.
Same with the jail cells.
Yeah, that almost sounds like common sense. Now. I have
heard many people say that when they talk with their senators,
their legislators, lawyers, any of those people, they tend to
feel like they're invisible. They feel like they do not
understand what they are going through. How can we build
their confidence that their voices are actually getting heard and
what they say actually means something, so that we can
get them the help that they need.
In Maine. In the last eight to ten years, we've
had so many instances where we've got our growing list
of parents and family members from our family support groups
to come to Augusta to testify on public hearings, to
come to Augusta for press conferences. After the Lewiston tragedy
that was written in all the papers, a young man
that was schizophrenic. The Army had him on a treatment plan.
He was reservest so when his reserve time is done,
they released him to the state Demain. State to Main
did not keep him on his treatment plan, and so
we had three press conferences on that one subject alone.
Because you almost could have predicted that eventually something was
going to happen. The psychosis and the visions that they
get gets a frindier. Especially, it becomes reality to them
that demon is living in the light switch, or my
mother is trying to kill me and is evil, and
once they're on a treatment plan, those things change.
Yes, that's a very tough situation for sure.
I know a parent that I've got to keep nameless.
But she lives in the southern part of the United States,
and because of her sons phoebeer and delusions that are
real to him, she's very evil and he has to
kill her. He's a former sharpshooter in the military, not
just an average person. The laws down there are so
terrible different county by county that they're just saying, oh, well,
oh well, you know absolutely nothing. This is just a terrible,
terrible situation.
Yes it is, and I believe that I have spoken
with that lady that you're talking about, and it's sure
is a bad situation. What we have to hope for
is some of these states are going to get together,
put their heads together, and come up with something that
are real solution.
Last year, I, like millions of other people, watched Governor
Nwsom from California come on sixty minutes talking about the
New Care Court Act, in California, extra money for judges
and housing to get the homeless off the street and
help them get a job. It all sounded wonderful and
right at the last minute, without telling the parents of
the psychiatrists or any of the medical professionals, they made
it voluntary. It gutted the whole bill. So now I've
heard with our national Shattering Silence Coalition monthly national zoom calls.
We have parents in California. They get the loved one
to court. You know, you've been homeless, in and out
of jails. This is going to be an apartment for you.
We're going to work with it on a daily basis,
get you a job. Ay you interested? And the young
person says, hell, no, I don't need to be in
a treatment plan. You need to be an a treatment plan.
They walk out of the court and nothing ever happens.
And because that was the urging of the Displayed Rights
Center that hates these type of laws nationwide, I'm hoping
Massachusetts this year is the forty ninth state that has
a statute like this. We're all kind of looking up
at Michigan. Their law is Heaven's law. What I've read
and talked to and seen there by far the finest
state in the country. They started with one area of
Michigan that has about four hundred thousand people in it,
and I retired judges running the program, and they have
over twenty seven hundred people on their Kevin's Law program.
They have room in their hospitals, they have room in
their jail. Their homeless problem is much less than it
used to be because people are on their treatment plan.
When I very first started talking about schizophrenia and serious
mental illness, I'll be honest, I really didn't know anything
about it at all. And when I would hear about
something that someone did it turned out to be psychotic.
I didn't understand that this was serious mental illness. So
my first reaction was put them in jail, throw away
the key. Right Now, since I've been talking with people
and gaining more understanding of this, my first reaction when
I hear or see of someone that did something, I
want to know, is this person just a really bad
person or is this a situation where the system completely
failed them?
Right? Right?
How do we teach and get people to understand that
just because someone does something does not mean they're bad.
It means we have to look at the system first,
more than just a person.
Yes, excellent, excellent question. It's a much needed change we
need to make. I think a lot of the elementary
and high schools are beginning to try to broach that subject.
A lot of it is still so like I don't
understand myself. I never talked to anybody that does understand.
Why the vast majority of schizophrenes I was born in January,
in the first two weeks of February. Why and so
it's just the phobias and the delusions become so real
to these individuals that they start doing things that harm others,
are to harm themselves.
Just a short time ago, I talked with a legislator
that was working on a bill for serious mental illness
in that state. They were able to work on a bill,
put it together, and get it ready to present to
the House. Then they had a vote on it and
the vote came back unanimous that they passed the bill.
Then it went to the Senate where it died a
horrible death there. How do we get these people, our representatives,
talking to each other so they understand the issue. Because
if a bill went through the House and got passed
by that many people they need to look at it
a little bit harder so they can take it into
a law that is actually going to help the people
that so desperately need it.
Yes, I mean it's like when I served. I mean
there was at least some communication between both ends of
the hallway we used to call it between the House
and the Senate. When one body did one thing, you know,
at least you were aware of it. Also going to
be improved, I think going forward, if we slowly and
I think this is happening, slowly increase the number of
parents that are unashamed and are willing to reach out
to legislators to let them know what this really is,
that it's real that when they're not on the treatment plane,
it's devastational to the not only the family, but usually
the community. And so that they raise people's awareness this
is a medical condition. This is not you know, Billy
down the street choosing to do this. This is what
he believes, you know, he should do in order to survive.
And of course it's not accurate at all.
Yeah. Now, sometimes legislation is passed and the intentions of
it was something that was really really good, but the
end outcome for the people that it was supposed to help.
For some reason, it just doesn't work. So with your
experience of working with legislators and of course the Senate,
which separates meaningful legislation from policy that just looks good
on paper.
Well, in Maine, I first submitted this bill in two
thousand and two and had a firestorm of opposition to
it and some parents they are testifying for it, and
the Commissioner of Health and Human Services at the time
under the John Baldochi administration, talked to the administrators of
the law in New York, which is called Kendra's Law.
So she brought forth the suggestion that we table a
bill from one session to between this session, between the
first long session and the second shorter section. She put
together a very large feral work study group over eight
months involving medical professionals and parents and opponents to the
PTP law, so that you really got a chance to
thrash out what had worked in other states and what
didn't work in other states. So you try to get
grassroots help in drafting something so that it actually interviewed
as psychiatrist that had practiced in New York for years
and it was familiar with their law could tell you
what he liked and what he didn't like about the
initial draft of the main law. You know, that way
you have a better chance, I think of getting something
to be run as as it wanted. You know, at
our district court hearings, a law enforcement or a medical
professional or a guardian can file the application to have
a PTP district court hearing, and the court notifies the
parties involved, including the person. The court sets an attorney
for that person so they are represented during the hearing.
And so it's a judge. It's a decision of a
district court judge after a hearing where there's give and
take and questions and answers and challenges made to assumptions.
Some states just have a PTP type or AOT order
is just done administratively. Boom, the judge stamps it and
all of a sudden you're under a PTP court order,
and that just doesn't have the effectiveness. As the judge
at the end of the hearing looking at the young
person saying, this is my decision, this is why you
may have had six hospitalizations and you've been homeless, and
goes over the history and this is what it's going
to be for you going forward, you're going to work
with an ACT team or a group home or intensive
case manager in the community. We're going to try to
get you a job and keep your out of jails
and hospitals and see if we can start having some
successes in your life. Judge also explains to the person
that if you stop your treatment plan, you're back that
evening in the hospital. They know that, and so they
for the most part, not always, but they stay on
their treatment plan and you can start to have some
successes with them. And a psychiatrist told me, he says,
somebody with an asignotia, they're all probably always going to
have anti signosis.
He says.
If somebody's been on a one year PTP and was
extended for another year, he says, I can sit down
and talk with him. You some he called something he
called backdoor insight. Mister Smith, you you probably don't feel
any differently whether or not you've been on a treatment
plan in the last two years. But let's sit down
and look at your life the last two years and
look at the two years previous to it, and they
begin to see that their life is different. It's more
positive now and because their brain chemical sure is normal again.
Yeah, that's really good to hear. Now. When I started
my podcast, i named it why Not Me. Basically, what
it means is that there's an individual type of situation
here where one voice can matter. What would you tell
a listener that decides they want to be an advocate,
they want to believe that their single voice can make
a difference and start something very positive. Where would you
tell them to start? And then what would you tell
them to do?
We're probably the first most difficult thing would be to
not ridicule and laugh behind the person's back that's acting differently.
Try to research what your laws are groups like the
National Shadowing Silence Coalition in Maine, the Staples Foundation website.
Research what are your laws in your state, what legislators
in your state have sponsored brain disorder laws in the past,
and so you can begin to know who to reach
out to to speak about making things better. We're better
than we used to be fifteen years ago in Maine,
but we're in the process now. It's not done yet.
But this is a list of thirty five tragedies that
have happened in Maine from people off their treatment plans.
Every one of them. You can see they're unnecessary. We
had a young man in Maine last year started going
to emergency rooms begging for help, begging to be put
on a treatment plan. All they did was keep him
for two days, calming down, dump him back out on
the street. Eventually he got so bad last ball that
he attacked some people in broke a woman's job, and
so now he's in jail. Now this is somebody who
was asking for help, had been on a treatment plan
previous and had done very well, wanted that again. Things
like this just make the hair stand up still in
the back of my neck. That unnecessary. If if you
were suffering that bad with a disorder of your stomach
or your bones or your skin, bang, you know, let's
let's get that person help. And this here, somebody has
to beg for help, they still don't receive it. And
so we've made a presentation main to all the district
attorneys have made about what the law is and how
it can be used more effectively and use more than
it has been in the past, and that I believe
will bring about some positive change going forward, because it's
better for them to step in early in somebody's history,
especially if they've been in a hospital previous. Get them
to help they need or may not realize they need,
but get them help before something bad happens. That costs
society millions and millions of dollars.
Yeah, and that's a huge amount of money. In closing,
what is one of the things that you would like
to let our listeners know that gives them an insight
of you as an advocate and of course you as
a representative on what you're trying to do to make
things better for those that need the help.
Just raising people's awareness that this is a biological disease
of the brain. It is no different than any other
disease of any other Bodybuart, your chemical levels are not normal.
More often than not, you're born in the dead of
the winter. Nobody knows why. Open discussions with family members
and school officials early on, and medical professionals, even your
primary care physicians, helping to direct them towards being on
a treatment plan. We in Maine now have over seventy
five people that are in their early teens, many of
them are not on the treatment plan. Were paying untowed
millions to keep them in facilities outside the state of
Maine because we don't have any facilities for young people
in Maine. That's money we should be keeping them in Maine,
having community supports to prevent things from happening, not just
reacting to them afterwards. The folks, the very hard working
folks that always in Maine have opposed this type of legislation.
I think by now have realized that John Nutting is
not going to back off, and we're gaining numbers of
parents and caregivers almost on a daily basis, growing our
network of parents and caregivers and law enforcement that want
to do better in this regard.
Well, this has been really good, a lot of great information,
great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to
join us today.
Well, look, thanks so much for having me on. Appreciate it.
It's been my pleasure. Thanks again, thanks for taking time
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