What About Bob!: Differential Diagnosing & Egotistical Therapists

<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
<v Speaker 1>movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
<v Speaker 1>I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.
<v Speaker 2>Ben Stover, individual therapist.
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists. We're all licensed clinical
<v Speaker 1>professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
<v Speaker 1>Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast
<v Speaker 1>is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love
<v Speaker 1>of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
<v Speaker 3>Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
<v Speaker 3>we aren't your therapist.
<v Speaker 1>If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
<v Speaker 1>a local mental health provider. I feel good, I feel great,
<v Speaker 1>I feel wonderful, guys, And just like that, we're talking
<v Speaker 1>about what about Bob today, y'all.
<v Speaker 4>We're finally doing it, y'all.
<v Speaker 3>We've only talked about doing this one for eight years,
<v Speaker 3>so it's a good thing.
<v Speaker 1>We're doing every season, every season we have talked about this.
<v Speaker 1>It's incredible excited. So this is our official start to
<v Speaker 1>season nine. Correct, Yes, this is our official start to
<v Speaker 1>season nine. We're finally discussing what about Bob, the patron
<v Speaker 1>saint of this podcast. I haven't watched this movie since
<v Speaker 1>I was a kid. What about you, guys. I also
<v Speaker 1>haven't watched this movie since I was a kid, but
<v Speaker 1>I remember it pretty clearly. Honestly, I was a little
<v Speaker 1>surprised by how well I remembered it.
<v Speaker 3>I watched it first, I think on a band trip
<v Speaker 3>on the bus sure, of course, because our band director
<v Speaker 3>was a interesting fellow and liked movies like this. We
<v Speaker 3>watched this in Austin powers on said trip. I think
<v Speaker 3>it was to Saint Louis for this one. And the
<v Speaker 3>last time I watched it, I think I was in
<v Speaker 3>my psychology and film class at Eastern Illinois, which is
<v Speaker 3>more years ago then we're going to quantify.
<v Speaker 2>All right.
<v Speaker 1>This movie it came out in nineteen ninety one. It
<v Speaker 1>stars Bill Murray and Richard Dreyfuss, and it's about a
<v Speaker 1>guy named Bob who has a collection of mental health
<v Speaker 1>stuff that we will talk about, who goes to see
<v Speaker 1>a new psychotherapist I think is his official title in
<v Speaker 1>the movie, doctor Leo Marvin, And that is the movie
<v Speaker 1>Bob follows him to on his vacation. That's all the
<v Speaker 1>part I really remembered is a patient follows his psychiatrist
<v Speaker 1>on vacation. Not remembering that and watching it now that
<v Speaker 1>Bob meets this guy for ten minutes maybe less in
<v Speaker 1>his office, imprints on him like a duck, and then
<v Speaker 1>follows him for the next several days on vacation. So yes,
<v Speaker 1>we'll be talking about just Bob and Leo. We'll be
<v Speaker 1>taking turns talking about Bob first and the mental health
<v Speaker 1>soup that is his character, and then we'll be talking
<v Speaker 1>about Leo. Doctor Leo Marvin as a typical sort of
<v Speaker 1>stereotype of like a narcissistic therapist, as I feel like
<v Speaker 1>they were portrayed a lot in the eighties and nineties,
<v Speaker 1>like a frasier up their own ass. It actually kind
<v Speaker 1>of made me think of when we did Cruel Intentions
<v Speaker 1>the Therapist in the beginning of that movie, where it's
<v Speaker 1>all about hawk and a product and being a snob
<v Speaker 1>seemed to be what we thought therapists were.
<v Speaker 4>At that time.
<v Speaker 3>It sure seems like the emphasis was on the expert
<v Speaker 3>therapist model where you come into my office and I
<v Speaker 3>sit behind a really big, powerful looking desk that communicates
<v Speaker 3>how small my pen is exactly.
<v Speaker 1>That desk was a monstrosity and so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>it definitely doesn't create a warm environment in way which
<v Speaker 1>you feel. It definitely makes you feel like you're being interrogated.
<v Speaker 3>I have never done therapy sitting behind a desk, not
<v Speaker 3>one time ever ever.
<v Speaker 1>No, even when I've had a desk, I've done which
<v Speaker 1>I misimiting you guys all do, which is you face
<v Speaker 1>away from your desk. Your desk faces the wall, and
<v Speaker 1>you turn away from your desk and you face your
<v Speaker 1>client with nothing between the two of you.
<v Speaker 3>My desk also faces the wall, so that I find
<v Speaker 3>less things to distract myself with, which does not work.
<v Speaker 1>So I guess we coull just jump right into it
<v Speaker 1>with mister Bob Wilie. So right away we're introduced to
<v Speaker 1>this character who seems to have a collection of phobias.
<v Speaker 1>Is how he's first introduced. I started keeping track of
<v Speaker 1>them as I was watching. Let me know, guys if
<v Speaker 1>I miss anything. So claustrophobia, because he is like when
<v Speaker 1>he gets into his apartment building hallway and he starts
<v Speaker 1>to get very like the walls are closing in on him,
<v Speaker 1>and the elevator and the elevator. He walked all the
<v Speaker 1>way up the stairs, which seems to be pretty far
<v Speaker 1>in Leo's office because he can't handle getting on the elevator.
<v Speaker 1>Does he go on the elevator in charch pretty four floors,
<v Speaker 1>which I feel like he would be so late to
<v Speaker 1>his appointment if he had to go forty four flights
<v Speaker 1>of stairs.
<v Speaker 3>Except that he's very compulsive, so he's probably very early
<v Speaker 3>walking up those stairs. Yeah, he looked like he was
<v Speaker 3>about to have a heart attack when he did that
<v Speaker 3>forty four flights.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I really don't know. You'd have to be pretty
<v Speaker 1>fit to do that kind of bullshit. And a germophobe,
<v Speaker 1>which isn't actually a psychological term.
<v Speaker 4>I looked it up.
<v Speaker 1>The term is misophobia, which is when you're scared of
<v Speaker 1>germs touching stuff. So he uses a lot of tissues
<v Speaker 1>in the movie to touch buttons, to touch anything that
<v Speaker 1>was like a public item, and then like agoraphobia when
<v Speaker 1>he goes out, it seems like he's overwhelmed by the
<v Speaker 1>sound of the world.
<v Speaker 4>You know what kind of made me think of Hannah
<v Speaker 4>as bo is afraid? I was just thinking that exact thing.
<v Speaker 1>I was the first frames of the film are so
<v Speaker 1>similar to BoA's Afraid.
<v Speaker 4>You're absolutely right, but was Afraid.
<v Speaker 1>Is the horror horror the Lynchian horror nightmare version of
<v Speaker 1>What About Bob?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean it's probably inspired by paying homage to it.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And he does describe things that also sound like panic,
<v Speaker 1>like when he's talking to Siggy.
<v Speaker 4>We'll discuss that later, that poor child and his poor name.
<v Speaker 1>He he does bring up stuff that does sound like
<v Speaker 1>actual panic symptoms, because he says like I get dizzy, spells, nauseous, trouble,
<v Speaker 1>they say, trouble, breathing, trembling, cold sweat like. He does
<v Speaker 1>name a lot of things that are legit panic, hot sweat,
<v Speaker 1>hot sweat, cold sweats. So when we see him, he
<v Speaker 1>does seem to be displayed a multitude of phobias. He
<v Speaker 1>works from home. He doesn't seem like he goes outside
<v Speaker 1>if he can help it. But we're why are we
<v Speaker 1>calling it soup?
<v Speaker 3>Though?
<v Speaker 1>Why are we calling a mental health soup? Even though
<v Speaker 1>I'm like naming all these actual diagnoses.
<v Speaker 3>Because they made up a diagnosis. Let's start there.
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, like what he says actually is
<v Speaker 1>I guess a fancy way of saying mental soup multiphobic personality.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a made up diagnosis. That's why it's mental
<v Speaker 3>health soup. What we see Bob displaying is two distinct
<v Speaker 3>likely disorders, but none of them are multiphobic personality disorder
<v Speaker 3>because it's not fucking real.
<v Speaker 1>I know, Bob does seem to be what we've talked
<v Speaker 1>about a lot on this podcast, which is, we want
<v Speaker 1>to put a crazy person in a movie, so we're
<v Speaker 1>gonna just throw a bunch of symptoms and behaviors at
<v Speaker 1>them in order to serve the story, not to like
<v Speaker 1>represent anything accurately. And this is clearly a comedy.
<v Speaker 4>We get it, guys.
<v Speaker 1>It's a comedy and it's directed by Frank Oz. We
<v Speaker 1>know it's not a movie supposed to take seriously. And
<v Speaker 1>they do use a lot of terms in language that
<v Speaker 1>is a part of our work as therapists.
<v Speaker 3>And most of it was represented poorly, but they did.
<v Speaker 3>I feel like they just took exactly like you said,
<v Speaker 3>how do we make the most Bonker's story about a
<v Speaker 3>really bad patient and a bad therapist. And remember when
<v Speaker 3>they introduced Bob to us, it's via his previous therapist,
<v Speaker 3>who the subtext is telling us that person is quitting
<v Speaker 3>therapy because of Bob.
<v Speaker 1>Bob drove him out of the job, out of the field,
<v Speaker 1>he drove him, he clearing his office out. Yeah, like yeah,
<v Speaker 1>And I do wonder when that therapist said we're a
<v Speaker 1>dying breed to Leo. I was like, is this some
<v Speaker 1>joke that I would understand when I first saw this
<v Speaker 1>movie in like ninety one that I don't quite understand now.
<v Speaker 3>Psychiatrists that do therapy is my guess. Okay, but I
<v Speaker 3>don't know, or maybe he was just referencing that people
<v Speaker 3>who are experts like that are dying breed and was
<v Speaker 3>saying exactly whatever he needed to to play to Leo's ego,
<v Speaker 3>so he would take the patient without questioning too much. Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Maybe, But yeah, Bob is yeah, he's it's basically a
<v Speaker 1>vehicle for Bill Murray to act totally berserker. And like
<v Speaker 1>I said, they just kind of throw a bunch of
<v Speaker 1>phobias at him. And I think one thing we can
<v Speaker 1>address though, is is it possible for someone to have
<v Speaker 1>multiple diagnoses to have multiple phobias?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>What feels suspicious about Bob as we get to know
<v Speaker 1>him throughout the movie, though, is it seems like he more.
<v Speaker 4>Has has.
<v Speaker 1>Anxiety or perseverates on the idea of having different diagnoses
<v Speaker 1>and phobias that necessarily has them.
<v Speaker 2>And he gets over them too fast, he gets over them.
<v Speaker 4>Well that's the biggest way.
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest problems in terms
<v Speaker 1>of what they're displaying to us, as though as though
<v Speaker 1>this ten minute conversation could do anything for someone with
<v Speaker 1>as as ill as he is supposed to be presenting.
<v Speaker 2>Right, which.
<v Speaker 3>It points to CD for him, right, And if you
<v Speaker 3>have multiple diagnoses, what you're describing is that he's worried
<v Speaker 3>that he has the things. Yeah, but he doesn't actually
<v Speaker 3>have them. And yes, problems with the movie that oh, look,
<v Speaker 3>there's magic, but I think the movie's making fun of
<v Speaker 3>that more than presenting that is real. Yeah, but if
<v Speaker 3>Bob were a real person and he was displaying constant
<v Speaker 3>worry that he has these disorders but then gets over
<v Speaker 3>them quickly and just plays up to them, I don't
<v Speaker 3>know that plays up to them isn't quite the right word,
<v Speaker 3>because he's genuinely distressed. Like I don't think Bob doesn't
<v Speaker 3>seem to present his fictitious disorder, which used to be
<v Speaker 3>called Munchausen's.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I don't buy that one quite well.
<v Speaker 1>Maybe what we can do right now is a little
<v Speaker 1>psycho ed one on one about what Bob could actually
<v Speaker 1>be presenting with because one thing is, yeah, you're talking
<v Speaker 1>about Munchausen. I could see people positing that while watching
<v Speaker 1>this movie. What makes you think that's not that?
<v Speaker 3>I think with Munchausen's people play into that almost an
<v Speaker 3>unaware kind of way. There's like an intentionality, there's an
<v Speaker 3>intention of a drivenness to it, and they believe they're ill.
<v Speaker 3>And Bob, I think, worries that he's ill, but doesn't
<v Speaker 3>necessarily believe it. He's trying not to get things, and
<v Speaker 3>he's coming up with rituals to do to avoid them.
<v Speaker 3>My good example of a ritual he clearly has is
<v Speaker 3>when he starts talking about being afraid that he has turets. Yes,
<v Speaker 3>but then he starts acting like he has turets to
<v Speaker 3>prevent himself fro getting threats. That would be an example
<v Speaker 3>of an obsession, yeah and a compulsion.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're right, because if he had like fictitious or
<v Speaker 1>like Munchausen, he would just be saying I have tourettes.
<v Speaker 4>Correct and he'd be acting as if he had turets.
<v Speaker 2>He would. But what we're talking aboubout not afraid of it.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but what.
<v Speaker 1>We're talking about is actually a version of OCD. I
<v Speaker 1>don't think people know a lot about which is OCD
<v Speaker 1>can present as an obsessive worry that you have something
<v Speaker 1>like I've had people worry they weren't actually suicidal, but
<v Speaker 1>they were worried they'd be suicidal. And that can be
<v Speaker 1>something you have to be careful about differentiating as a therapist,
<v Speaker 1>like do you are you actually experiencing SI societal ideation
<v Speaker 1>or are you just having intrusive thoughts about like oh god,
<v Speaker 1>what if I grab that knife and cut myself?
<v Speaker 4>Which is different?
<v Speaker 2>Is different?
<v Speaker 3>What makes yeah OCD it in particular show up like
<v Speaker 3>this is the obsession is the worry that something's wrong,
<v Speaker 3>and the compulsion is seeking reassurance.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because what the client I'm thinking of would ask
<v Speaker 1>a lot of questions. They would go to It was
<v Speaker 1>a younger client, so they would go to their parents
<v Speaker 1>and ask them a bajillion questions over and over again,
<v Speaker 1>like will I really do that?
<v Speaker 4>Will I really hurt myself? And so you're right, like
<v Speaker 4>there is.
<v Speaker 1>The thought, and then the accompanying behavior to try to
<v Speaker 1>feel safe if possible.
<v Speaker 3>And he seems to be aware that it's ridiculous, which
<v Speaker 3>is another thing that makes it point away from fictitious disorder.
<v Speaker 2>He's not convinced he has something.
<v Speaker 3>But where we do see is that Bob displays he said,
<v Speaker 3>can people have two yep, and Bob imprints on Leo
<v Speaker 3>like a little baby duck, and clearly imprinted on his
<v Speaker 3>last therapist, and also in prints on Leo's family and
<v Speaker 3>on the elderly couple.
<v Speaker 2>Although they got they have their own beef the agenda.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was a weird character that I don't think
<v Speaker 1>was necessary. Agree, and they kept like panning to them, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>to get their reaction shots to when bad things would
<v Speaker 1>happen to Leo.
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean they're clearly setting Bob on him. They're
<v Speaker 3>encouraging Bob. They sure Leo deflects him and they just
<v Speaker 3>bring him right back.
<v Speaker 1>They're they're honestly, I can kind of understand, Yeah, someone
<v Speaker 1>who can engage in pettiness. They're like, you need somewhere
<v Speaker 1>to stay, you can stay with us, Bob.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.
<v Speaker 3>But what we do see Bob displays his dependent personality disorder.
<v Speaker 3>He is unsure of what his identity is without someone
<v Speaker 3>else validating that, without being attached to somebody else. Leo
<v Speaker 3>is the greatest doctor that's ever existed, and he can't
<v Speaker 3>possibly do anything without him. And he gets so scared
<v Speaker 3>when he finds out Leo's going on vacation that he
<v Speaker 3>acts like he's the insurance police and tracks him down
<v Speaker 3>by getting the call center to tell him where doctor
<v Speaker 3>Marvin is.
<v Speaker 2>And watching that scene just made me scream in my
<v Speaker 2>head goes like, oh my god, that might actually work.
<v Speaker 1>I know. I feel kind of bad for the for
<v Speaker 1>the Answering Service because you don't think people are going
<v Speaker 1>to act like that in real life, you know what
<v Speaker 1>I mean, like.
<v Speaker 4>Be that out of pocket.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I can see where you would accidentally do
<v Speaker 1>something even feels so awful.
<v Speaker 4>After the fact, I felt really bad.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, agreed. And just the fact that he that
<v Speaker 1>was so that was just so wild. All of that
<v Speaker 1>part was so incredibly wild. And then faking that he
<v Speaker 1>completed suicide in order to oh because when he when
<v Speaker 1>he goes to the and he says he killed himself,
<v Speaker 1>that's why.
<v Speaker 4>We're investigating it. Yeah, Yeah, Which that's.
<v Speaker 1>Another thing where because I think what you were starting
<v Speaker 1>to say earlier, Ben is someone who has these phobias,
<v Speaker 1>genuinely has these phobias, wouldn't be able to overcome them
<v Speaker 1>enough to stalk their therapist to his vacation exactly. Like
<v Speaker 1>this movie tries to kind of bullshit that, Yeah, I
<v Speaker 1>like him having a hard time getting on the bus
<v Speaker 1>and stuff, but he gets over all that stuff so
<v Speaker 1>quickly in his pursuit of Leo.
<v Speaker 2>He does.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, he clearly made everybody on the bus miserable,
<v Speaker 3>so he's actively trying. But because he's on such a mission.
<v Speaker 3>But like I didn't explain fictitious disorder enough, and with
<v Speaker 3>factitious disorder, he'd be doing it for the attention. He'd
<v Speaker 3>be faking the illness to get the attention, and you're
<v Speaker 3>going to great lengths to do so. I don't see
<v Speaker 3>that in Bob. I'd accept the mental health soup argument
<v Speaker 3>where they played some aspects of that, but I don't
<v Speaker 3>feel like Bob would randomly fake symptoms. At moments where
<v Speaker 3>things got tough, he just kept singing the praises of
<v Speaker 3>how doctor Marvin's the only person who can fix it,
<v Speaker 3>and displayed blatantly inappropriate Bonker's behavior, but it didn't seem
<v Speaker 3>like he played up symptoms to get the attention. He
<v Speaker 3>just soaked up all the attention he could get, but
<v Speaker 3>didn't use his symptoms to get it. And it wasn't
<v Speaker 3>like he looked up a disorder and was faking it.
<v Speaker 3>It seems like he's afraid he has a disorder. So
<v Speaker 3>that's where the separation comes in.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so this is where I guess, if nothing else,
<v Speaker 1>Bob is a good practice for like differentiating diagnosis, which
<v Speaker 1>is does he have OCD, does he have fictitious Munchausen's,
<v Speaker 1>Does he have dependent personality disorder? Does he just have
<v Speaker 1>like a bunch of random phobias multiphobic personality? I guess
<v Speaker 1>is that we could put it and like we're saying,
<v Speaker 1>the phobia thing kind of falls apart by how easily
<v Speaker 1>is able to overcome them, because I work with people
<v Speaker 1>who have like phobic levels of stuff and it's hard
<v Speaker 1>for It's like they miss important stuffs in their life,
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, Like their phobias get in
<v Speaker 1>the way of their functioning of things that really mean
<v Speaker 1>something to them. So the fact that he's able to
<v Speaker 1>push through all of that, so quickly to get all
<v Speaker 1>the way to where Leo is kind of blows the
<v Speaker 1>phobia diagnosis out of the water, right.
<v Speaker 3>Whereas when we talk about dependent personality disorder, listen to
<v Speaker 3>these traits and tell me if this sounds like Bob.
<v Speaker 3>This is where we do what's called differential diagnosing. Lots
<v Speaker 3>of things have mimicking symptoms, But when I start listening
<v Speaker 3>to these intense, pervasive need to be taken care of,
<v Speaker 3>submissive clinging behavior, extreme fear of separation, this sounds like Bob.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's Bob. Definitely, that makes a lot of sense.
<v Speaker 1>I feel like that's the one that I picked up
<v Speaker 1>on first, besides the phobias. But I really like the
<v Speaker 1>way that you guys are talking about how it's that
<v Speaker 1>he's just so afraid that he has something, because I
<v Speaker 1>think that definitely is a part of a part of
<v Speaker 1>what's going on for him.
<v Speaker 3>I think when you look at Bob, he does fit
<v Speaker 3>the combination of these two really well, at least as
<v Speaker 3>well as going to a from the early nineties with
<v Speaker 3>Bill Murray being a maniac and apparently he was actually
<v Speaker 3>a maniac on set, and I think the animosity that
<v Speaker 3>Richard Dreyfush shows him was real because he he threw.
<v Speaker 2>An ashtray at his face. Bill Murray threw it. Bill
<v Speaker 2>Murray was being like a bully in a giant asshole.
<v Speaker 4>Apparently you know that method. Acting bullshit is bullshit?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is.
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know if he was doing that or
<v Speaker 3>just Bill Murray was a maniac at this exact fase
<v Speaker 3>in his career.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.
<v Speaker 3>I haven't studied up on my Bill Murray history, but
<v Speaker 3>the behavior we see in the film is clearly obsessed
<v Speaker 3>and afraid, but also having a deep need to be
<v Speaker 3>taken care of. But I don't think they overlap. I
<v Speaker 3>don't think Bob is doing all this to fake that
<v Speaker 3>he has something. I think he's genuinely terrified that something's
<v Speaker 3>wrong with him. But it's not inventing shit to be that.
<v Speaker 3>I can see the argument for it, but I don't
<v Speaker 3>think so.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like I would be more open to the idea
<v Speaker 1>that maybe he has some anxiety OCD about having specific
<v Speaker 1>illnesses and maybe also having dependent personality disorder, Like you
<v Speaker 1>can have a personality disorder and have another mental health illness.
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how much people know that either, because
<v Speaker 1>I think people I don't know the modern The current
<v Speaker 1>way of thinking about personality disorders is not very kind.
<v Speaker 1>And the way I kind of hear it be talked
<v Speaker 1>about in the mainstream is, if you have a personality disorder,
<v Speaker 1>nothing's really wrong with you, quote unquote except for your
<v Speaker 1>personality in terms of diagnosing. But actually a lot of
<v Speaker 1>people with personal disorders can have comorbidities with other diagnoses.
<v Speaker 1>So he could be someone who has anxiety and dependent
<v Speaker 1>personality disorder, and anxiety could come out as perseverating on
<v Speaker 1>illnesses to an OCD level.
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps, Yeah, I certainly see the OCD. He's clearly fixated,
<v Speaker 3>and he has lots of little things that he does,
<v Speaker 3>and we're seeing all of that combined. Like you said,
<v Speaker 3>I think where you're I draw the separation again, is
<v Speaker 3>that in fictitious disorder. The best example we've seen on
<v Speaker 3>that on movies we've done was an it where we
<v Speaker 3>saw Munchausen's by Proxy with the one kid's mom who
<v Speaker 3>was medicating him for anxiety and like making him take
<v Speaker 3>pills and arguing with the doctors and doctor shopping and
<v Speaker 3>manipulating results and telling everybody to get attention that her
<v Speaker 3>son was so sick Bob's not doing any of that.
<v Speaker 3>There's none of the malicious representation. Bob is genuinely terrified
<v Speaker 3>that something's wrong with him. It's just super dependent at
<v Speaker 3>the same time. And that's a real interesting divide in
<v Speaker 3>mental health soup. We've got going on with Bob here.
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, And I was just going to add that another
<v Speaker 1>really good example of Munchausen is in the HBO limited.
<v Speaker 4>Series called Sharp Objects.
<v Speaker 1>That's another really good portrayal of Munchausen's and the lengths
<v Speaker 1>that someone will go through to prove that their child
<v Speaker 1>is ill.
<v Speaker 2>Or that they are right.
<v Speaker 3>And I just don't see it here, but I do
<v Speaker 3>see all the things Brittany was talking about, like he's fixating,
<v Speaker 3>he's worried, he's doing things to make the fear go away.
<v Speaker 3>He's where it's bonkers and that he shouldn't be like that.
<v Speaker 3>That's why he's seeking treatment. But he's also showing some
<v Speaker 3>rigidities and other little tiny rituals, like we see him
<v Speaker 3>jumping cracks on the sidewalk, we see him touching buttons
<v Speaker 3>with a kleenex.
<v Speaker 1>He walks up the stairs, he goes to the side,
<v Speaker 1>he had to turn sideways to go up the stairs.
<v Speaker 2>And there's all kinds of little things.
<v Speaker 3>But I do want to specify too that in differential diagnosis,
<v Speaker 3>there are two obsessive compulsive diagnoses, and people sometimes get
<v Speaker 3>them confused. Obsessive compulsive personality disorder is marked by like
<v Speaker 3>stark rigidity, people that can't tolerate if their pencils are
<v Speaker 3>lined up in a certain way out of their desk,
<v Speaker 3>that it's one's turned a little bit and would have
<v Speaker 3>to have things in order. It almost present a little
<v Speaker 3>bit like we see when there's neurotypical things where people
<v Speaker 3>can't tolerate the break from routines, but it would present
<v Speaker 3>with stark rigidity. Angela from the Office would probably be
<v Speaker 3>a great example of that, like everything has to be
<v Speaker 3>these certain ways, everything needs to be this way, and
<v Speaker 3>she'd be a pretty good TV example of that, and
<v Speaker 3>Jim would be her worst nightmare.
<v Speaker 1>And I think something that I use as a way
<v Speaker 1>to understand OCPD is that someone who has OCPD, it's
<v Speaker 1>actually very tough to treat.
<v Speaker 4>Supposedly.
<v Speaker 1>I've never worked with it myself, but supposedly it's tough
<v Speaker 1>to treat because kind of similar to Angela from the Office,
<v Speaker 1>when people have OCPD, they're more likely to think that
<v Speaker 1>the way they do things is the way you're supposed
<v Speaker 1>to do things, like they're the correct ones, kind of
<v Speaker 1>like type A on steroids.
<v Speaker 2>Right, and there is no other way? Yeah, so its wrong. Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Whereas OCD, there is this awareness that the way that
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking is not quite sane and it's causing me
<v Speaker 1>to stress. It doesn't feel like it's adding anything to
<v Speaker 1>my life. It's just like getting in the way of stuff.
<v Speaker 1>I would also say, like another diagnosis we probably should
<v Speaker 1>make sure to rule out or talk through is hypochondria,
<v Speaker 1>which is actually somatic disorder or sematics disorder. Why would
<v Speaker 1>we not consider him having that either when we're thinking
<v Speaker 1>about all these things he's worried about having.
<v Speaker 3>None of the things he's mentioning are medical illnesses. That
<v Speaker 3>would be the top reason why. That one pretty much
<v Speaker 3>ruled itself out of my brain pretty quick, locked right
<v Speaker 3>into dependent personality disorder OCD took me some thinking and
<v Speaker 3>some reading, but locked right into depending I think we
<v Speaker 3>all did us when we were talking offline, We're like,
<v Speaker 3>so he's got dependent personality disorder, right, right, Okay, absolutely,
<v Speaker 3>but hypochondria would have him afraid of disease period, and
<v Speaker 3>he's afraid of germs from touching things and he's doing
<v Speaker 3>things to avoid it, but he's not afraid of illness
<v Speaker 3>in general period, and that he's thinking he's always going
<v Speaker 3>to get sick or is sick, or something's always wrong
<v Speaker 3>with him.
<v Speaker 2>He's not doing any of those things.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I wanted to just name that because I
<v Speaker 1>could understand listening to this podcast episode and being like,
<v Speaker 1>why aren't they much in hypochondria because he's so fixated
<v Speaker 1>on all these different illnesses that he might have or
<v Speaker 1>that he thinks he has. But Yeah, you're making the
<v Speaker 1>good differentiation, which is that in order to have that
<v Speaker 1>specific diagnosis, it's physical illnesses that you think you're having,
<v Speaker 1>and you can be so concerned that you have these
<v Speaker 1>different illnesses that you can actually give yourself like physical pain,
<v Speaker 1>Like I've worked with people that have like legit back pain,
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that as a result of sematic disorder.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and having a sematic disorder means you're genuinely speaking,
<v Speaker 3>refusing to deal or it's just presenting physically, and if
<v Speaker 3>people aren't processing the emotion, the body then feels the
<v Speaker 3>painful emotion through physical pain and I'm not hearing any
<v Speaker 3>reports of that from Bob. I don't know if you
<v Speaker 3>guys heard, but I didn't catch any of those.
<v Speaker 1>No, I don't think so, because he doesn't really talk
<v Speaker 1>about any medical any kind of descriptions of physical symptoms
<v Speaker 1>except for when he's being interviewed by Leo initially when
<v Speaker 1>he makes all that list of like dizzyness, nausea. That's
<v Speaker 1>really the only time that he talks about it. He
<v Speaker 1>doesn't really talk about it at any other time of
<v Speaker 1>the film.
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think so. I think you're right, Like,
<v Speaker 2>it's just.
<v Speaker 3>I think we can just wipe that one off of
<v Speaker 3>and like, but it's one we should look at and
<v Speaker 3>going like, but he's afraid of being sick. But nope,
<v Speaker 3>just it's more touching, it's touching dirty things.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's more of those.
<v Speaker 1>It's more the phobic OCD version of being afraid of
<v Speaker 1>germs or illness. Not so much like I think I
<v Speaker 1>have these things all the time. Because that's actually in it,
<v Speaker 1>that kid ends up kind of getting somatic disorder because
<v Speaker 1>his mom has like the Munchausen right, Like, he starts
<v Speaker 1>to develop his reaction to that, which is probably just
<v Speaker 1>his internal trauma from his mom and being like fucked
<v Speaker 1>over by her and thinking, you.
<v Speaker 4>Know, nightmare nightmare status guys.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, And with Bob there was something I wanted
<v Speaker 3>to mention with five. I don't remem it was five
<v Speaker 3>or tr OCD got changed. It used to require both
<v Speaker 3>obsessions and compulsions, and it no longer does. People can
<v Speaker 3>have one or the other. Now they do not have
<v Speaker 3>to have both. You do not have to have ritualistic
<v Speaker 3>things that you do. And it used to be in
<v Speaker 3>DSM four that that was locked in. It had to
<v Speaker 3>be both or you could not get this diagnosis. Under
<v Speaker 3>the modern version of this, Bob would be eligible. Under
<v Speaker 3>the past version of this, Bob would be eligible, I think.
<v Speaker 3>But when you see there are people who don't necessarily
<v Speaker 3>perseverate so much. There are people who just compulsively do
<v Speaker 3>things to seek reassurance, and it is they can have
<v Speaker 3>worries without having fixated worries, but still have a compulsive
<v Speaker 3>response to them. So it's where differential diagnosis is important.
<v Speaker 3>And for the love of God, stop diagnosing yourselves with AI.
<v Speaker 2>Stop it, stop.
<v Speaker 1>It, We'll stop trying to do it. Here's the thing,
<v Speaker 1>as humans, we don't have all the answers to the universe.
<v Speaker 1>So neither does AI because AI is just because AI
<v Speaker 1>is just to us. They don't know they have all
<v Speaker 1>the answers. Stop it, and it's just like WebMD on
<v Speaker 1>you know, steroids. Yeah, I would say something I also
<v Speaker 1>want to point out about Bob and if we're going
<v Speaker 1>to go off of the dependent personality disorder diagnosis is
<v Speaker 1>something that I think, I'm sure makes us all lean
<v Speaker 1>more towards that. Well, it's a few things, but one
<v Speaker 1>is what's very clear throughout the course of this movie
<v Speaker 1>is how he relates to other people, you know, not
<v Speaker 1>just not just Leo, but his whole family. And a
<v Speaker 1>common component of personality disorders is struggling relationally, struggling to
<v Speaker 1>relate to people in a way that's appropriate. Whether it's
<v Speaker 1>I can't quite relate to people, or I can't quite
<v Speaker 1>figure out relationships, or I don't know how to make friendships,
<v Speaker 1>or I don't know well with him, it's more like
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what's appropriate and what's not. And that's
<v Speaker 1>a big component of Bob throughout this movie is he
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to have any social intelligence. He has no
<v Speaker 1>awareness of legit. How scary it would be to show
<v Speaker 1>up at a person's house unannounced that you've only met
<v Speaker 1>once for ten minutes. My clients would understand how unnerving
<v Speaker 1>it would be if they just showed up at my house.
<v Speaker 1>Well one, that they would know where I lived, and
<v Speaker 1>that they would show up at my house unannounced. There's
<v Speaker 1>like that social awareness of how off putting that would
<v Speaker 1>be and also how that would ruin your relationship to
<v Speaker 1>your therapist. And he has he seems to have no
<v Speaker 1>social awareness of how he comes off, of how off
<v Speaker 1>putting he's behaving, and how if he really wants to
<v Speaker 1>work with Theo, I mean, if he really wants to
<v Speaker 1>work with Leo psychiatrically, that he's ruining it by showing
<v Speaker 1>up at his house the way he is.
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, there's a zero percent chance Leo's going to
<v Speaker 3>work with him. Even if this movie isn't bonkers.
<v Speaker 4>There's even if it doesn't end in attempted murder.
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, which got ignored.
<v Speaker 4>By the way, and then he marries his sister.
<v Speaker 3>And I guess family just like playing right into it. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>it's unbelievable, it's outrageous, but yeah, he has no awaren
<v Speaker 3>that lack of awareness actually made me wonder if he's
<v Speaker 3>somewhere on the spectrum with like is like not perceiving
<v Speaker 3>social cues and it's.
<v Speaker 2>That's where it's mental health too.
<v Speaker 3>It's real difficult to kind of suss that out of
<v Speaker 3>a Bob shows a lot of autism sectual traits a lot.
<v Speaker 1>Well, he's also the victim of I feel like this
<v Speaker 1>time in understanding mental health, like autism wasn't even understood
<v Speaker 1>the way we understand it now. They're giving him sort
<v Speaker 1>of the thing that they would do back then, which is,
<v Speaker 1>aren't people with mental health stuff so eccentric and wacky
<v Speaker 1>and weird? And they will just do wacky, weird, eccentric stuff.
<v Speaker 3>And then we let Bill Murray completely off the chain.
<v Speaker 3>I guarantee he improvised the living crap out of this movie.
<v Speaker 5>And yeah, but you just you watch it and go like, uh,
<v Speaker 5>that lack of perception that this is weird like that
<v Speaker 5>that seems to go beyond even personality disorder, like the
<v Speaker 5>imprinting and I just needed I needed I needed that,
<v Speaker 5>and the compulsion to do it makes sense, But it
<v Speaker 5>seems like there's something else missing that that would probably cover.
<v Speaker 3>And you're right, they that wouldn't have been remotely considered.
<v Speaker 3>But he absolutely does not perceive boundaries, anyone's boundaries at all,
<v Speaker 3>And he doesn't seem to recognize or tolerate well being
<v Speaker 3>told no or deviated from his plan, whatever his ideas are.
<v Speaker 3>But that doesn't appear malicious or like premeditated. He seems
<v Speaker 3>like he's just doing stuff like he's He seems like
<v Speaker 3>the embodiment of do I look like a guy with
<v Speaker 3>a plan. I'm just a dog chasing cars. That's what
<v Speaker 3>he seems like he is.
<v Speaker 1>Don't even don't insult the joker like that, and also,
<v Speaker 1>don't make me say something like that, Okay, got him,
<v Speaker 1>but I hear what you're saying though. Also, and something
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about on different episode odes and why this
<v Speaker 1>is mental health soup, is someone who is as mentally
<v Speaker 1>unwell as Bob would also be so plan oriented, like
<v Speaker 1>the way that he makes the whole, like getting the
<v Speaker 1>outfit and the fake badge together, going to the answering
<v Speaker 1>service office, working the answering operate well, working the operators
<v Speaker 1>the way that he does, like his ability to hold
<v Speaker 1>it together and deceive people. That does not also coincide
<v Speaker 1>with someone who can't seem to leave his apartment without
<v Speaker 1>doing all this ritualistic stuff and can't seem to get
<v Speaker 1>on the bus without making a scene like the movie's
<v Speaker 1>doing that thing that movies do where they're picking and choosing. Also,
<v Speaker 1>where he's ill, and when it works for the plot
<v Speaker 1>for him to be stable and with it, he's with it.
<v Speaker 1>But when it works for a plot to for him
<v Speaker 1>to be totally out there, he's out there. And the
<v Speaker 1>fact that even with the way that he goes about
<v Speaker 1>defrauding the answering service, is that it is also him
<v Speaker 1>practicing some awareness of how the world works and how
<v Speaker 1>I was just thinking the exact same thing that him
<v Speaker 1>being able to do that and engage in and be
<v Speaker 1>charming with them.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's more antisocial.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like that feels like something completely different. Being able
<v Speaker 1>to be to appear that confident and that comfortable in
<v Speaker 1>that way just doesn't match everything else that we see,
<v Speaker 1>Like it just really doesn't even come close.
<v Speaker 4>It doesn't. It just doesn't track.
<v Speaker 3>It's that's where it's difficult to suss out, because right
<v Speaker 3>he's showing like a lack of understanding that you can't
<v Speaker 3>just imprint onto everybody. This is not your family, but
<v Speaker 3>you don't know these people and they're just being kind
<v Speaker 3>to you.
<v Speaker 2>But this you're not.
<v Speaker 3>You're not man's house, you're in his pajamas, and that
<v Speaker 3>you came back and now you're playing with the kids.
<v Speaker 3>If that didn't feel so spontaneous and childlike, it would
<v Speaker 3>be way more concerning from Bob. I think it's just
<v Speaker 3>he's really not perceiving it. Where like antisocial would, there'd
<v Speaker 3>be an agenda, it'd be manipulative, be no, you're going
<v Speaker 3>to do this, so you do what I want and
<v Speaker 3>Bob Bob is missing that. I do not see that,
<v Speaker 3>but it's worth looking at because that shit is scary.
<v Speaker 1>And it then it calls into question like is he
<v Speaker 1>being fake the whole movie? Which is what I which
<v Speaker 1>is what I was just thinking, So that is just
<v Speaker 1>all fucking made up and he's really just a horrible person,
<v Speaker 1>or like when he takes me to the hospital at
<v Speaker 1>the end of the towards the end of the movie
<v Speaker 1>and he's charming all the staff. But I do think
<v Speaker 1>that is where the movie is like picking and choosing
<v Speaker 1>what works for the plot, not necessarily anything that makes sense.
<v Speaker 1>And what we talk about a lot in this podcast
<v Speaker 1>is how it also paints people who are of mental
<v Speaker 1>health disorders in a very negative light, like they can
<v Speaker 1>pick and choose when they're acting ill, that they can
<v Speaker 1>manipulate their diagnoses to get what they want, like when
<v Speaker 1>he calls a narcissist and a psychopath at the end Leo,
<v Speaker 1>which is also bad luck on him because I was like, Uh,
<v Speaker 1>look in the mirror, babe. But it does do the
<v Speaker 1>disservice to people who actually have these diagnoses to make
<v Speaker 1>it seem like they could just pull their shit together
<v Speaker 1>when it works for them and then fall apart when
<v Speaker 1>it does it. And I also think the way that
<v Speaker 1>he engages with Leo's son, Siggy also flies in the
<v Speaker 1>face of when we're talking about like that more nefarious
<v Speaker 1>antisocial behavior, because he does have these moments where with
<v Speaker 1>the kids that seem so genuine and childlike and is
<v Speaker 1>accessing an ability to connect that doesn't line up with
<v Speaker 1>these other things we're talking about.
<v Speaker 3>It really doesn't, and we're all agreeing here, like it's
<v Speaker 3>it's a little too spontaneous, it's a little too authentic,
<v Speaker 3>it's too genuine there, you're not seeing manipulative acting like
<v Speaker 3>he's a baby or a child to then get something
<v Speaker 3>out of it. It seems like he really just needs
<v Speaker 3>that and is accessing a part of his self that
<v Speaker 3>is hurt more than he's trying to control the situation.
<v Speaker 3>Like he definitely wants care, but he seems to want
<v Speaker 3>care and not understand that what he's doing is bananas.
<v Speaker 3>And that's a really big difference in understanding it and
<v Speaker 3>doing it anyway because you want it and don't care
<v Speaker 3>or can't care. Yeah, I think that that one. We
<v Speaker 3>seem to be in agreement, like it's worth talking, but
<v Speaker 3>now don't see it, Patrick Bateman, that and you know
<v Speaker 3>who else shows some of that stuff, Doctor Lee Marvin.
<v Speaker 4>So should we take a break here?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think we've covered Bob. People. I don't have
<v Speaker 2>much else to say about Bob, do you guys?
<v Speaker 4>I don't think I have anything else to say about Bob?
<v Speaker 2>No, but what about pop?
<v Speaker 4>What about Bob?
<v Speaker 2>What about?
<v Speaker 4>But about says? Is that the titled movie over and
<v Speaker 4>over again.
<v Speaker 1>I was like, you gotta be kidding me, you gotta
<v Speaker 1>be kidnaming nineties? Yeah, I was actually the one last
<v Speaker 1>thing I want to say about Bob?
<v Speaker 2>What about Bob? Brittany?
<v Speaker 1>Is that what the family does? Maybe it's actually fits
<v Speaker 1>more the next part. But I think also a disservice
<v Speaker 1>this movie does to people similar to Bob is that
<v Speaker 1>it does a different kind of stigmatizing a lot of
<v Speaker 1>the movies you talked about where they have stigma around
<v Speaker 1>people with mental health disorders, especially significant ones like Bob
<v Speaker 1>probably has, is that they're like violent, scary, that kind
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, Right, this movie actually kind of goes too far.
<v Speaker 1>The other direction which it which is also how people
<v Speaker 1>can be treated in a stigmatizing way, is that infant
<v Speaker 1>fantalizing them. Like the mom literally says kids will be
<v Speaker 1>kids about Bob when he shares the room with Siggy,
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, he's not a fucking kid. They all
<v Speaker 1>talk about him like his brain is like a four
<v Speaker 1>year old's, And that's also very disrespectful.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that they set him up in the room and
<v Speaker 3>like left him with their child has me going like,
<v Speaker 3>what what are you?
<v Speaker 4>Wild fucking behavior, unrecking.
<v Speaker 2>Believable couch couch the couch.
<v Speaker 1>I would be like, I don't care where you sleep,
<v Speaker 1>Get the fuck away from my house.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, I mean Leo was not wrong for being a.
<v Speaker 1>Poll well before we get to on that, yeah, let's
<v Speaker 1>take a break care and we'll be right back, all right,
<v Speaker 1>So doctor Leo Marvin, everybody unclench your jaws and let's
<v Speaker 1>swallow them whole. What do we think about, doctor Leo Marvin?
<v Speaker 2>And you chose to say, we know what?
<v Speaker 4>He who we would love to swallow whole, Sigmund for aid.
<v Speaker 2>That is quite evident.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which it's like do we not know? And I
<v Speaker 1>mean that's just typical. Also, like every therapist and psychiatrist
<v Speaker 1>and everybody must be obsessed with Sigmund.
<v Speaker 3>Freud, especially if they're the expot therapist motto.
<v Speaker 1>Like you're gonna have a bust of him in your office,
<v Speaker 1>You're gonn name your home only son after.
<v Speaker 2>Him, and your daughter after his daughter.
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, Anna, I knew that. I didn't even catch
<v Speaker 1>that till I was like, I think Anna is also
<v Speaker 1>the name of something else, but I just couldn't remember.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Anna Freud.
<v Speaker 3>Do you know that he actually a you know, quite
<v Speaker 3>successful uh theorist herself, and her theories on childhood actually
<v Speaker 3>significantly improved and were better than her father's, and like
<v Speaker 3>the dynamic between those two especially.
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about the puppets, but.
<v Speaker 4>Yes, we will talk about the buckets, can't forget.
<v Speaker 3>The puppets, but the yeah, naming your children after I
<v Speaker 3>mean they were it was really some like on the nose,
<v Speaker 3>like we're really going to lean into how unwell Leo
<v Speaker 3>Marvin is and obsessed himself.
<v Speaker 1>Well, and also this betrayal, which like I said, is
<v Speaker 1>up top, is not unfortunately a typical of this time
<v Speaker 1>period that all people in mental health spaces like his
<v Speaker 1>are these elitist money grubbers who write books and who
<v Speaker 1>are like just trying to hawk their wares, and they
<v Speaker 1>all want to become some like psychological celebrity with their
<v Speaker 1>own modality that makes them famous like baby steps. Is
<v Speaker 1>his right, this idea that also well, this is an
<v Speaker 1>idea that also encourages us to not trust therapists, not
<v Speaker 1>trust mental health providers because we're out, we're out, we're
<v Speaker 1>in it for our own gain, which is hilarious because
<v Speaker 1>actually a lot of therapists and stuff don't make a
<v Speaker 1>lot of money, especially early especially or ever some or
<v Speaker 1>ever some times. But he's probably I bet you he's
<v Speaker 1>the kind of psychiatrist so that takes no insurance.
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, it's all which.
<v Speaker 1>Is like, then how do you get someone like Bob,
<v Speaker 1>who I can't imagine has a lot of money and
<v Speaker 1>resources given where we see him living.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think, you know, understanding even what plans
<v Speaker 3>would have covered mental health back then is something we're
<v Speaker 3>all a little just too young to know or understand.
<v Speaker 3>Since the ACA, they all have to which means prior
<v Speaker 3>to the ACA they did not. So therapists only charging
<v Speaker 3>cash would have been much more common.
<v Speaker 2>And now it's kind of.
<v Speaker 3>A small percentage of people are like, look, i'll give
<v Speaker 3>you a super bill, but I'm not messing around with insurance.
<v Speaker 3>And people that have written books and are super fancy
<v Speaker 3>and downtown offices might be a little more likely to
<v Speaker 3>follow that model, but it's not nearly as common.
<v Speaker 2>But I wonder what it was in ninety one.
<v Speaker 1>But I think off the rip, we need to talk
<v Speaker 1>about what we see him do that is unethical. One
<v Speaker 1>is the idea, Well one, this interview intake that's only
<v Speaker 1>five and a half minutes or whatever where totally insane. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>so that's like Also, if he's billing Bob for that
<v Speaker 1>whole hour, that's shitty, Like whatever he's billing Bob on
<v Speaker 1>top of giving him a book and billing him for
<v Speaker 1>the book. Billing him for the book is crazy, crazy crazy.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally sued.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And it's okay to give a client a book
<v Speaker 3>you wrote. It's okay to offer a book for sale.
<v Speaker 3>What is not okay is to give a book and
<v Speaker 3>then charge for it later, where a client might feel
<v Speaker 3>compelled to pay and feel like they might have to
<v Speaker 3>pay or they won't be seen. And that is unethical.
<v Speaker 3>That would be very very unethical and shady behavior. And
<v Speaker 3>Leo clearly obsessed with the book and just well, I mean, obviously.
<v Speaker 2>I wrote it, so I have to charge for it. No,
<v Speaker 2>you don't. You can eat that cost. You should never do.
<v Speaker 1>That, even just writing him off the way that he does,
<v Speaker 1>writing him off the way that he does, ending the session,
<v Speaker 1>giving him this one note answer for all of his problems.
<v Speaker 1>Like an intake usually takes at least and sometimes an
<v Speaker 1>intake takes several sessions, Like an intake can take a
<v Speaker 1>long time, Diagnosing somebody with a personality disorder with meeting
<v Speaker 1>them within the first ten minutes is unethical. Personality disorders
<v Speaker 1>take time to diagnose because it's a lot of relational
<v Speaker 1>it's a lot of behaviors, and so it takes time
<v Speaker 1>to really get a good idea of why somebody is
<v Speaker 1>engaging the behavior they're engaging in. So personality disorders, you
<v Speaker 1>don't unless somebody comes in with that diagnosis. That's not
<v Speaker 1>a diagnosis that you just offhandedly give to someone after
<v Speaker 1>talking to them for five to time minutes.
<v Speaker 3>No, and frankly would I have to cover with baby
<v Speaker 3>therapists all the time. Is we can't diagnose those at
<v Speaker 3>our level of licensure. You have to do testing or
<v Speaker 3>be a psychiatrist to diagnose personality disorders. You have to
<v Speaker 3>have evidence for these, and we are not qualified to
<v Speaker 3>diagnose those. There are limited number of things we're not
<v Speaker 3>qualified to diagnose. Most we are. But we're saying a
<v Speaker 3>character in a movie displays these traits, but we would
<v Speaker 3>not diagnose a real person with dependent personality disorder. We
<v Speaker 3>would refer them to testing or a psychiatrist to make
<v Speaker 3>that because you cannot. I can't say you can't make
<v Speaker 3>that diagnosis in four minutes. And you Leo Marvin set
<v Speaker 3>himself up for Bob by portraying himself as a god
<v Speaker 3>who can answer him with baby steps and read my
<v Speaker 3>book and like just baby steps, like just just baby steps,
<v Speaker 3>Like how do I stop all this stuff, baby steps,
<v Speaker 3>leaving Bob with the impression that he can be cured
<v Speaker 3>so quickly, all because they wanted to go on vacation.
<v Speaker 1>Another reason why him charging him for the book is
<v Speaker 1>unethical is because he is taking advantage of the power
<v Speaker 1>dynamic between him and the client, because he knows that
<v Speaker 1>the client, like you were saying, Ben, like the client
<v Speaker 1>might feel compelled to pay for the book and not
<v Speaker 1>say anything about it. So taking advantage or taking advantage
<v Speaker 1>of the client like that is what he's doing.
<v Speaker 4>So I feel like between that and he's just horrible.
<v Speaker 2>I don't even I.
<v Speaker 1>Don't even know what else to say. Like, just his
<v Speaker 1>the again, that expert model that like I am. I
<v Speaker 1>think he does think he is god. I really do
<v Speaker 1>think that that's how he feels about it, or at
<v Speaker 1>least he's a god about this book or whatever. Well,
<v Speaker 1>he definitely likes the smell of his own farts and
<v Speaker 1>he washed that shit. Oh he's just he's bottling it
<v Speaker 1>and inhaling.
<v Speaker 2>You know.
<v Speaker 3>He's like President Schloob from Spaceballs, like when he's got
<v Speaker 3>the air in a can.
<v Speaker 2>But that's his own farce. He's just like.
<v Speaker 1>I love Balls as a kid, But yeah, I think
<v Speaker 1>a good point that you're both bringing up that I
<v Speaker 1>hadn't really thought of, but is a part of the
<v Speaker 1>ethical nature of our work and the pardynamic of our work,
<v Speaker 1>and why having an ego when you do our work
<v Speaker 1>is one of the worst things you can have as
<v Speaker 1>a therapist, because one, it keeps you from learning and growing,
<v Speaker 1>like having an ego and anything does. And then two,
<v Speaker 1>it allows you to make more mistakes than you would
<v Speaker 1>typically make.
<v Speaker 4>And a big.
<v Speaker 1>Mistake he makes is putting, like you said, putting himself
<v Speaker 1>in this position with Bob as a oracle figure. It's
<v Speaker 1>like that he has all the answers and then throwing
<v Speaker 1>him out the door.
<v Speaker 3>Right.
<v Speaker 1>And also something too, which I think displays his ego
<v Speaker 1>and I think can be a common misunderstanding of mental
<v Speaker 1>health practitioners, is that almost we can read your aura
<v Speaker 1>and know, like immediately what's wrong with you. The way
<v Speaker 1>he says multifo personality with acute separation, anxiety and like
<v Speaker 1>a need for family connection or something like, how the
<v Speaker 1>fuck would you get all of that from talking to
<v Speaker 1>him for four minutes? Could you make an argument that
<v Speaker 1>he's someone that's getting referred from another practitioner, and maybe
<v Speaker 1>that's why he knows he did no, but he didn't
<v Speaker 1>get any info from that guy yet because he literally
<v Speaker 1>referred him and then like thirty minutes later, Bob's at
<v Speaker 1>his door, so he also it wasn't even long enough
<v Speaker 1>for him to get the chart, if you will, from
<v Speaker 1>the other practitioner, to have something to build on, because
<v Speaker 1>the only way that would fly is if he was
<v Speaker 1>just piggybacking on the diagnosis that was already made by
<v Speaker 1>the previous therapist or psychiatrist.
<v Speaker 4>But he doesn't even have that.
<v Speaker 1>He literally meets Bob for five seconds and makes these
<v Speaker 1>sweeping assumptions, but they don't talk about BOP's past. They
<v Speaker 1>don't talk about his family issues, Like that's also stuff
<v Speaker 1>you'd need to know if you were going to make
<v Speaker 1>any assumptions about his familial bonding about separation anxiety, Like
<v Speaker 1>it's so wild, how far reaching it is. But there
<v Speaker 1>are mental health practitioners who fucking walk around like that,
<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna look, that's not true. Like there are
<v Speaker 1>some that really do like the smell of their own
<v Speaker 1>farts and think that they can like eyeball a bitch
<v Speaker 1>and like know everything that's wrong with them and you
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes you see those on social media like this is
<v Speaker 1>where I also will you know as we're shitting on
<v Speaker 1>AI also will shit on social media.
<v Speaker 4>Mental health practitioners.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pop psychology, Yeah, who will porn? Which is what
<v Speaker 2>we do. It's different. Yeah, this is about movies.
<v Speaker 1>But these are the kind of people that will make
<v Speaker 1>a stitch on social media about maybe real people on
<v Speaker 1>a on a like a reality show and be like
<v Speaker 1>they have this, this, this and this, and I'm like,
<v Speaker 1>you don't know that you haven't talked to this per
<v Speaker 1>at length. You're not there, You're not their doctor or
<v Speaker 1>their therapist. And those people also feel this misunderstanding that
<v Speaker 1>we as therapists have this almost psychic ability to read
<v Speaker 1>someone within like a conversation.
<v Speaker 3>Which, newsflash, we don't. Can we pick up on your aura, yes,
<v Speaker 3>yes we can. Can we figure out okay, something's going
<v Speaker 3>on here?
<v Speaker 2>Yes?
<v Speaker 3>But are we also using trained and practiced I at
<v Speaker 3>watching your effect, how you say things, what makes you squirm,
<v Speaker 3>what makes you tense, what changes your facial expression, your tone,
<v Speaker 3>what causes micro emotional releases or expressions? Yes, because we
<v Speaker 3>also have sat for thousands of hours with people and
<v Speaker 3>studying this, and we're trained on how to watch for
<v Speaker 3>the changes that are displayed. So there's a lot of
<v Speaker 3>unconscious movements that people do that we watch. But anybody
<v Speaker 3>that's saying I can fix you versus let's see if
<v Speaker 3>we can help but that will figure it out, is
<v Speaker 3>a clue to stay the flock away, or.
<v Speaker 1>That I can talk to you for five minutes, I
<v Speaker 1>know you have mommy issues or some shit, you know
<v Speaker 1>what I mean, Like I can see within you and
<v Speaker 1>I know everything that's up with you. Yeah, it's so
<v Speaker 1>wild to make any of those to make any of
<v Speaker 1>those assumptions about a client. I think it's wild that
<v Speaker 1>therapists are diagnosing people who are on reality TV shows,
<v Speaker 1>like besides the fact that they are in a very
<v Speaker 1>specific environment and it's probably scripted, Like you literally have
<v Speaker 1>no idea this person could be. We could be only
<v Speaker 1>getting cuts of this one way that they act, like
<v Speaker 1>what the fuck are you even talking about? You have
<v Speaker 1>absolutely no idea what is going on? And thinking that
<v Speaker 1>and telling somebody that you have the answer and that
<v Speaker 1>you already know what it is and that you can
<v Speaker 1>help and read this book and then you'll be fine
<v Speaker 1>is wild and is completely unethical.
<v Speaker 4>It's unhelpful, it's.
<v Speaker 1>Unkind like it is what are you doing in this
<v Speaker 1>field if you think you know everything, because babe, you
<v Speaker 1>don't know shit.
<v Speaker 3>And learning what you don't know is the first thing
<v Speaker 3>that we're all taught by any good supervisor we ever
<v Speaker 3>had is okay, the first thing I want you to
<v Speaker 3>learn and tell me is what you don't know. I mean,
<v Speaker 3>you guys have worked with me in that capacity, and
<v Speaker 3>I probably can echo this is that because I had
<v Speaker 3>good supervisors. It's the supervisor I become as I'll sit
<v Speaker 3>with people and if I'm interviewing you, I'm like, I
<v Speaker 3>want to know why you do this. I want to
<v Speaker 3>know what you're good at, and I want to know
<v Speaker 3>what you're not good at. I want you to know
<v Speaker 3>that because you need to know how to to clients
<v Speaker 3>who you are and how you fit in the salad
<v Speaker 3>of therapy. As a tomato, you are not an end
<v Speaker 3>all be all, and people are like, oh no, I'm
<v Speaker 3>good at everything, Like bye, yeah, I'm not okay. So
<v Speaker 3>your homework is to go home. If I wasn't in
<v Speaker 3>charge of hiring your homework, because I would not hire
<v Speaker 3>that person. But you're your homework is to go home
<v Speaker 3>and tell me what you're not good at and what
<v Speaker 3>you don't know, because you don't. And none of us understand.
<v Speaker 3>The education we get on a great number of things
<v Speaker 3>in school does not remotely prepare you for reality. It
<v Speaker 3>prepares you to open your mind to learn and start seeing,
<v Speaker 3>but not be ready. And people are like.
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm a LBC, I just graduated. I'm ready to
<v Speaker 2>treat trauma. Bye.
<v Speaker 4>You don't know what you're talking about, babes, We don't know.
<v Speaker 1>Well. The social media therapist is probably the modern day
<v Speaker 1>version of this. Yeah, like Leo yes, Like they're the
<v Speaker 1>modern day version of like giving therapists a bad name,
<v Speaker 1>acting like they know every thing, doing it because they
<v Speaker 1>like attention, yeah, and seeming like they're a genius yeah,
<v Speaker 1>and liking the yeah, the power and the attention that
<v Speaker 1>that gives them, then actually practicing ethically right.
<v Speaker 3>And you know, I think hopefully people are hearing us say,
<v Speaker 3>even though we're doing media stuff, that what we're not
<v Speaker 3>doing and what we've never done is diagnosed real people. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>And we've never offered comments on real people. We might
<v Speaker 3>say like fuck that person, but not a formal opinion
<v Speaker 3>or diagnosis. And I think it's critical to recognize the
<v Speaker 3>difference between We're looking at movies that show us a
<v Speaker 3>pretty intimate look into someone for two hours and give
<v Speaker 3>you an opportunity to explore an accelerated time frame that
<v Speaker 3>was deliberately crafted, but talking to real people is different.
<v Speaker 3>And the way people present on shows, yes, Hannah is
<v Speaker 3>it's it's scripted and or in couraged. I had a
<v Speaker 3>friend who was a producer on The Bachelor, like brag, No, yes, brag,
<v Speaker 3>all right, where's shit to throw a Brittany I need?
<v Speaker 2>Well?
<v Speaker 1>And also too, it just makes us look bad as
<v Speaker 1>a as a as a provider.
<v Speaker 4>It makes us just look bad as a profession.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and people don't realize that you're the attention you're
<v Speaker 3>drawing to yourself is for the wrong reasons.
<v Speaker 1>And you can and you can smell the bullshit like
<v Speaker 1>you can smell clear bullshit. Well, you can smell like
<v Speaker 1>the It just also just belittle trust in what we do. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>and that it makes people think that therapists or psychiatrists
<v Speaker 1>get into that work because they get they get the
<v Speaker 1>rocks off right in some capacity.
<v Speaker 3>All right, So clearly we have some opinions on a
<v Speaker 3>doctor Marvin type and some of the stuff we've seen
<v Speaker 3>in really but let's take a quick break here and
<v Speaker 3>we'll talk a little bit more about some of the
<v Speaker 3>things that might be driving Leo.
<v Speaker 2>So Leo Marvin.
<v Speaker 3>Clearly, we've hinted that we have some opinions that we're
<v Speaker 3>seeing some things that drive him.
<v Speaker 2>What's his deal?
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think his deal is that he enjoys
<v Speaker 1>the status of being a psychiatrist, But I don't know
<v Speaker 1>how much he actually enjoys the ethical work of it,
<v Speaker 1>like the the humbling part of the work, which is
<v Speaker 1>that you are like a in my opinion, you are
<v Speaker 1>like a social like social serving kind of you know
<v Speaker 1>what I mean. Like you are you are a provider
<v Speaker 1>to the.
<v Speaker 4>People if you will.
<v Speaker 1>And it's not it shouldn't be about a claim because
<v Speaker 1>you get in your own way, like we've been talking about.
<v Speaker 1>And it also stifles you because I'll tell you this,
<v Speaker 1>baby steps, as he explained, it is booboo like baby
<v Speaker 1>steps is like CBT one oh one bullshit. It's nothing
<v Speaker 1>revolutionary as he's described it.
<v Speaker 3>No, and even by nineteen ninety one, CBT came out.
<v Speaker 3>In what the seventies, CBT and RBT came out around
<v Speaker 3>the same time the cognitive based things, and I think
<v Speaker 3>RBT was first, and then CBT. I think RBT was
<v Speaker 3>in the sixties, the late sixties, and CBT early seventies
<v Speaker 3>or around the same time. But either way, this should
<v Speaker 3>have been out for thirty years by this point, and
<v Speaker 3>he's absolutely not making anything revolutionary. But he certainly seems
<v Speaker 3>to be interested in surrounding himself with people that will
<v Speaker 3>provide an sense of grandiosity and self or otherwise obtained
<v Speaker 3>a grandization. And those start to sound a little bit
<v Speaker 3>like diagnostic words, do they not? What other things do
<v Speaker 3>we see from good old doctor Marvin. Do we see
<v Speaker 3>a pattern of grandiosity over one need for admiration, Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>a lack of empathy for others, particularly his son and
<v Speaker 3>Bob and the what's the name of the family?
<v Speaker 4>Oh, I don't remember.
<v Speaker 1>I just put down the local community hates Leo, but
<v Speaker 1>like the Bonnets or the Bennetts or something something like that.
<v Speaker 3>But you know, we're seeing grandiose self of a sense
<v Speaker 3>of self importance. Does anyone think Leo is better than
<v Speaker 3>Leo thinks Leo.
<v Speaker 1>Is, well, yeah, he definitely thinks he knows everything and
<v Speaker 1>well because also what's blinding him this whole movie. Is
<v Speaker 1>he so fixated on this Good Morning America interview and
<v Speaker 1>what it means to his book. And he was comparing
<v Speaker 1>himself to other people that have had these fancy situations happen.
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember who exactly he references, but doctor Ruth. Okay,
<v Speaker 1>keep saying doctor doctor Ruth also did an interview from
<v Speaker 1>her home or some sand vacation.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and she sucks, does she something like that? Yeah?
<v Speaker 4>I thought that was your opinion.
<v Speaker 1>No, I don't really know anything about doctor Ruth having
<v Speaker 1>firm opinion on her.
<v Speaker 2>No, he he is like trashing her a little bit.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's like no one can be better than him either.
<v Speaker 3>He only belongs in the elite company and he's the best,
<v Speaker 3>and he's most fixated on upholding that.
<v Speaker 1>And also like naming his kid Sigmund. So he's already
<v Speaker 1>setting up his kid, his son, to be a vessel
<v Speaker 1>for his own interests, his own identity. You know, he's
<v Speaker 1>he's already setting his kid up to not be his
<v Speaker 1>own person by giving him the name one of the
<v Speaker 1>most famous specific names there are.
<v Speaker 4>There's not like a lot of kids running around named Sigmund.
<v Speaker 2>Not in America. No, I've never heard.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so also not thinking about the position he's putting
<v Speaker 1>his kid in by naming him. What's sicky is cute,
<v Speaker 1>but that's still like not common.
<v Speaker 3>So I'm starting to detect We're circling something here, what
<v Speaker 3>might be?
<v Speaker 2>What is it we might be circling here?
<v Speaker 4>Our scissistic personality disorder?
<v Speaker 3>What a grandiose self of self importance do we have that?
<v Speaker 4>Yes?
<v Speaker 3>Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance. Yes, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>not so much beauty or ideal love, but the other ones, Uh,
<v Speaker 3>belief that they are special and can only be understood
<v Speaker 3>by others, special or high status people.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, oh yeah for sure.
<v Speaker 1>The way he talks to his family too, Yeah, like
<v Speaker 1>they're all below.
<v Speaker 3>Him, require excessive admiration, absolutely, sense of entitlement, color perscon
<v Speaker 3>take advantage of others to achieve their own ends.
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, does that what the book think? In
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of the book and also the whole his
<v Speaker 1>lack of comprehension about why the community hates him, like
<v Speaker 1>when he yells at that couple, all.
<v Speaker 2>Right, every right to buy this house, to buy this.
<v Speaker 1>House, like, having no concept of why he's I mean,
<v Speaker 1>it's the same thing we talk about with Bob, which
<v Speaker 1>is like this true like disconnect about how they make
<v Speaker 1>other people feel and how to relate to people.
<v Speaker 3>Lack of empathy, believes others are envious of them, although
<v Speaker 3>the couple is actually envious of him. But you know,
<v Speaker 3>show arrogant or haughty behaviors or attitudes.
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely couldn't be haughtier in those socks and those short shorts.
<v Speaker 2>What about the bucket head?
<v Speaker 1>The bucket I was a lot and I yeah, I
<v Speaker 1>think the whole diving situation with his son is such
<v Speaker 1>a good example of this. Like you are a psychotherapist,
<v Speaker 1>is how he portrays himself like a psychiatrist who does therapy.
<v Speaker 1>And yet the way that you're engaging with your son
<v Speaker 1>is not the way you're supposed to talk to a
<v Speaker 1>kid or anyone who's scared to do something. Is basically
<v Speaker 1>just like strong arming them and like berating them.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he's not being super encouraging, and even when he is,
<v Speaker 3>his patience runs out very quickly. And it's more about
<v Speaker 3>how the son reflects on him and whether or not
<v Speaker 3>he's able to help his son be successful than it
<v Speaker 3>is about his son being scared.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not about I want my kid to overcome
<v Speaker 1>this fear of diving because it'll help him feel actualized
<v Speaker 1>and empowered. It's yeah, the way he behaves is like,
<v Speaker 1>it looks bad on me that I have a son
<v Speaker 1>who can't dive. Who gives a shit if you're a
<v Speaker 1>kid can dive.
<v Speaker 4>Such a weird thing to want, but that's what to do. People.
<v Speaker 1>Ye, they get stuck on things, start mean things to
<v Speaker 1>them that don't make any sense, set or just kind
<v Speaker 1>of seem random.
<v Speaker 3>What also seemed like he made it unless I'm inventing it.
<v Speaker 3>He made a comment about because of the school his
<v Speaker 3>son goes to that this is like a thing that
<v Speaker 3>people do there and they have diving, and like they're
<v Speaker 3>in high society and you know, your son might be
<v Speaker 3>an Olympian or get scholarships or whatever. But it's like,
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's like it's a crew or polo or
<v Speaker 3>you know, yeah, I expected things at some private academy
<v Speaker 3>that has ivy on the fence.
<v Speaker 1>Well, he definitely Well, they make it very clear in
<v Speaker 1>the movie that he's one of those parents that was
<v Speaker 1>waiting to have a version of a son that he
<v Speaker 1>was a speculating he would have. They're not actually getting
<v Speaker 1>to know the son they actually have, the child they
<v Speaker 1>actually have.
<v Speaker 4>Because Siggy is wearing he's like a little.
<v Speaker 1>Goth, you know what I mean, Like he's wearing all
<v Speaker 1>black outside my favorite.
<v Speaker 4>I do love him.
<v Speaker 1>I love him and this Annon hook. This kid's attitude
<v Speaker 1>is my favorite. Yeah, he was just like fuck all, y'all.
<v Speaker 1>And and he's obsessed with death. He's kind of neurotic already.
<v Speaker 1>Like he is not an outdoor kid. He's not an
<v Speaker 1>outdoor kid. He's an indoor kid.
<v Speaker 2>He's listening to the cure. Guys.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he's an indoor kid. And his dad doesn't either
<v Speaker 1>care about that, doesn't perceive that, disregards it. Like I
<v Speaker 1>feel like he doesn't even perceive it. I feel like
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't even look at his son truly, do you
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean? Puppet, Yeah, wearing all black.
<v Speaker 4>Look back at that puppet. Is it time to talk
<v Speaker 4>about the puppets? Guys?
<v Speaker 2>It might be time to talk about the puppets.
<v Speaker 3>So three was like, okay, two one, what the Hannah fuck?
<v Speaker 1>The puppets are so crazy, like so creepy weird, and
<v Speaker 1>like I know that's the point, but yeah, well and
<v Speaker 1>Brittany brought up as we were walking in, she brought up.
<v Speaker 1>Having them displayed like that in that way is also
<v Speaker 1>very odd.
<v Speaker 4>Like having them on the mantle. Having them on the mantle.
<v Speaker 1>Basically he just uses it to try to get them
<v Speaker 1>to believe him. Well, he uses it. It's like instead
<v Speaker 1>of being able to have like a hard heeart with
<v Speaker 1>his daughter, he got to bring the puppet out. It's
<v Speaker 1>like he can't get there with his daughter unless they're
<v Speaker 1>using the puppets as a which is also like, roxy,
<v Speaker 1>how are you a psychiatrist? If you don't, what are
<v Speaker 1>you doing? Well, he thinks he knows what he's doing right,
<v Speaker 1>Like he has he has convinced himself. I assume that
<v Speaker 1>using the puppets is the correct psychological way to get
<v Speaker 1>at quote unquote hard conversations instead of using actual social
<v Speaker 1>skills social intelligence, emotional intelligence, which is one that your
<v Speaker 1>daughter is way too.
<v Speaker 4>Fucking old to my using puddets.
<v Speaker 1>Two that she's out in the world you guys are
<v Speaker 1>like out at like the docks and stuff doing this,
<v Speaker 1>and then three like oh out in public, two public
<v Speaker 1>like a seventeen year old oor and just that that
<v Speaker 1>actually like gets in the way of the situation. But
<v Speaker 1>he's doing that thing people can do when they're up
<v Speaker 1>thrown butt, which is they everything that they're using that
<v Speaker 1>might actually be like an avoidance or like a crutch
<v Speaker 1>or something like that, is them having like a great idea.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think we're the writing on this is brilliant.
<v Speaker 3>In particular is that I think what this really is
<v Speaker 3>it's a I think it's a double joke because the
<v Speaker 3>director is Frank Oz, who is one of the most
<v Speaker 3>famous puppeteers in the world. He does Miss Piggy and Yoda,
<v Speaker 3>and Sam Niagle is a classic Henson guy. Him and
<v Speaker 3>Jim Henson were like the ones and twos of muppets,
<v Speaker 3>but also anaphroid used puppets all the time. So there's
<v Speaker 3>like a double self referencing joke here that the daughter's
<v Speaker 3>name is Anna and he's making her use puppets, and
<v Speaker 3>she used puppets. Although again with we covered Andofhoid was
<v Speaker 3>actually a brilliant child therapist. She pioneered a lot of
<v Speaker 3>work and some of her stuff is still used. But
<v Speaker 3>she would use toys to and puppets to help people
<v Speaker 3>talk and do one baby whisper or one dollar whisper
<v Speaker 3>at a time which I think we're really tying into
<v Speaker 3>some meta jokes here, which fits the throne of this movie.
<v Speaker 3>But as you see that also like the ick that
<v Speaker 3>you get from like, oh my god, can you imagine
<v Speaker 3>being a teenager and your dad being outside in short
<v Speaker 3>shorts all those ninety one so that probably is common,
<v Speaker 3>but still a teenager having your dad make you talk
<v Speaker 3>to him with a puppet outside where people are boating
<v Speaker 3>and looking at you because they have nothing fucking else
<v Speaker 3>to do, because they're not a boring ass lake.
<v Speaker 1>I would take that puppet and crush it and say,
<v Speaker 1>this is what you can do with your puppet.
<v Speaker 4>Asshole.
<v Speaker 1>Well, for me, that puppet wouldn't exist any longer, But
<v Speaker 1>at that time I was set. By the time I
<v Speaker 1>was seventeen, I would have destroyed that puppet in some capacity.
<v Speaker 1>I would have lit it on fire. We're thrown it away,
<v Speaker 1>we're up to apart. Maybe would have made a new one.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But I think also there's a nice lake right there.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just so apad.
<v Speaker 1>I would have been like, you've got to be goddamn
<v Speaker 1>crazy if you think I'm about to talk like That's
<v Speaker 1>also something that's so interesting about this movie weird. Interesting
<v Speaker 1>is how much his family just goes along. They're so
<v Speaker 1>appeasing of everybody and so appeasing of him, Like the
<v Speaker 1>only one who really pushes back is Siggy, and the
<v Speaker 1>how like submissive almost like his I maybe we could
<v Speaker 1>get into a whole thing with that, like mom and daughter.
<v Speaker 1>I mean his wife and daughter are But also I
<v Speaker 1>think he does that thing which also I think sometimes
<v Speaker 1>happens in real life, but I think it is also
<v Speaker 1>a tell is when someone like him puts on their
<v Speaker 1>therapist hat to talk to people in their personal life.
<v Speaker 1>You know, like that's also totally distancing behavior. Though that's
<v Speaker 1>that's me saying I can't relate to you interpersonally, so
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to put on my therapist mask to talk
<v Speaker 1>to you. So it's a way to hide. And so
<v Speaker 1>it's actually like a distancing technique, a distancing strategy. It's
<v Speaker 1>not an intimacy strategy. And that's why, as people in
<v Speaker 1>my personal life probably know, like I don't, therapists me
<v Speaker 1>and person me are different, not me being like a
<v Speaker 1>whole different fake person. I'm a therapist, but the way
<v Speaker 1>I talk to clients, it's not the way I talk
<v Speaker 1>to people in my personal life because that would be
<v Speaker 1>I think, one, patronizing, but two it's like a distancing thing,
<v Speaker 1>like I'm putting myself in a different space than you.
<v Speaker 1>I'm removing myself from you personally. By putting on a
<v Speaker 1>therapist's voice. Was also very demeaning and and you can
<v Speaker 1>feel very cold, like if I was his daughter, I'd
<v Speaker 1>be like, talk to me like a fucking like you're
<v Speaker 1>my fucking dad. Like That's what pissed me off, maybe
<v Speaker 1>even more than the puppets is put that puppets away,
<v Speaker 1>because that means you're gonna be talking to me like
<v Speaker 1>doctor Marvin and not my fucking dad.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's not winning here.
<v Speaker 3>It's it's really disturbing, creepy behavior, and you can see
<v Speaker 3>that he's struggling to connect, which yet again rings true
<v Speaker 3>of personality disorders, because you narcissistic personality disorder people are
<v Speaker 3>people that have that. One of the things that they're
<v Speaker 3>truly struggling with. Underneath all that is a deep fear
<v Speaker 3>that they are inadequate. And they go through all this
<v Speaker 3>effort and get completely intolerant of being exposed, and the
<v Speaker 3>behavior can ramp up drastically. You know, usually not to
<v Speaker 3>the point of tying bombs or on your patient's neck
<v Speaker 3>and trying to blow them up.
<v Speaker 1>But it is it is a clever way to hide,
<v Speaker 1>like it's a clever way to hide that you are struggling,
<v Speaker 1>that you are having in inadequacy, you know, like by
<v Speaker 1>putting on his expert hat. This also is like in
<v Speaker 1>Crueltians when in the very beginning with that therapist when
<v Speaker 1>her daughter's like, don't fucking talk to me, Like, I'm
<v Speaker 1>one of your fucking patients. And there are people that
<v Speaker 1>do that, Like I've been around enough therapists that I
<v Speaker 1>have run into therapists that I've tried to get to
<v Speaker 1>know personally that do that shit, and it puts me off.
<v Speaker 1>And I'm in the field, you know what I mean.
<v Speaker 1>And so I think, if nothing else, the fact that
<v Speaker 1>he has those puppets about his family, I think just
<v Speaker 1>says so much about how he he acts like the
<v Speaker 1>family therapist, the family psychiatrist, and not like their dad,
<v Speaker 1>which is also probably why he doesn't have a lot
<v Speaker 1>of actual clout when something like Bob happens where he
<v Speaker 1>because one thing that I can't understand about Leo is
<v Speaker 1>he's not wrong with how much he's like, Bob is
<v Speaker 1>not well, why are you hanging with Bob? Bob can't
<v Speaker 1>sleep in our son's room, Bob has to go home,
<v Speaker 1>Bob can't go voting with you. Like, he's not wrong,
<v Speaker 1>but I think he has demoralized his position in the
<v Speaker 1>family so much that they don't take him seriously in
<v Speaker 1>that way.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think you're right. I think that they're so
<v Speaker 3>sick of that expert model that they're just even passively
<v Speaker 3>resisting it. And they're like, nah, Bro, we don't even care.
<v Speaker 3>Like Bob's nice, Bob is fun. I think that was
<v Speaker 3>the thing that they like used it and like Bob
<v Speaker 3>is fun and and I can be fun.
<v Speaker 2>I'm fun? Am I fun?
<v Speaker 1>Well he's using he's using their whole vacation as like
<v Speaker 1>to get ready for his photo shoot interview, Like their
<v Speaker 1>vacation gets co opted by by that too, which I
<v Speaker 1>feel like also a teenager, the two kids would have
<v Speaker 1>more of us think about that in real life too,
<v Speaker 1>like fuck you, we don't even have a real vacation.
<v Speaker 1>You're just I'm a prop right, his daughter is not
<v Speaker 1>mean enough. I could really pump that.
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, oh yeah for sure.
<v Speaker 3>Oh and the one thing that the daughter said, I
<v Speaker 3>am thinking about this having an eight year old and
<v Speaker 3>a two year old, like or having eight year old
<v Speaker 3>and two year od daughters. Right when he was like
<v Speaker 3>asking them about like should I put the gun up
<v Speaker 3>or like the Puppets or like the bust or whatever,
<v Speaker 3>and like I about fell out of my chair laughing
<v Speaker 3>when she was like, no, Day, you should put up
<v Speaker 3>the gun. It makes you like it, but it communicates virility,
<v Speaker 3>Like what teenager would.
<v Speaker 4>That in Cosmo?
<v Speaker 3>But what what teenager would say that with a degree
<v Speaker 3>of encouragement and not roasting your bitch ass. And I'm like, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>maybe it's clear you're having some virility problems. Maybe you
<v Speaker 3>should use the gun. That I could see a teenage
<v Speaker 3>girl saying to a parent not oh yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That totally was like, I mean, I know it's
<v Speaker 2>a joke, but like, goddamn well.
<v Speaker 1>And also, if he really is someone with NPD and
<v Speaker 1>we don't know, I mean, he goes he literally has
<v Speaker 1>like a psychotic break in this movie, you.
<v Speaker 2>Know, but oh yeah, he goes catatonic.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but if he's someone that maybe does have tantrums
<v Speaker 1>fits whatever at home, which would be more aligned with
<v Speaker 1>someone who actually has NPD.
<v Speaker 4>Then you could argue that, like.
<v Speaker 1>All these responses that his wife and daughter giving him
<v Speaker 1>specifically is like fawning, right, they're just trying to appease him,
<v Speaker 1>make him feel good, because if dad feels good, then
<v Speaker 1>it's chill and he makes money. So we'll just, you know,
<v Speaker 1>we'll just focus on the fact that he provides for
<v Speaker 1>us when we get nice stuff, and we'll just suck
<v Speaker 1>up to him so that everything's copastic. We'll use his
<v Speaker 1>fucking puppets when he wants to use the fucking puppets.
<v Speaker 2>I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're slightly wrong.
<v Speaker 3>I think that's a very relevant perspective here, because they
<v Speaker 3>are trying to survive too, and if he's going to
<v Speaker 3>be ridiculous and level up, and maybe I don't know,
<v Speaker 3>ty gunpowder satchels around their necks, if they're not compliant,
<v Speaker 3>maybe it's easier to compliment them.
<v Speaker 1>I will say there were a few things that he
<v Speaker 1>does do that I wanted to highlight as provider appropriate,
<v Speaker 1>you know, because this movie does that thing where I
<v Speaker 1>think they try to legitimize him by having him do
<v Speaker 1>enough things that an actual provider would do.
<v Speaker 2>In the beginning in the.
<v Speaker 3>First beginning second acts of the movie, absolutely when he's like, yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Like he provides a temporary provider for Bob when he's
<v Speaker 1>going to go on vacation. He's like, you can talk
<v Speaker 1>to doctor et cetera while I'm on vacation.
<v Speaker 4>Which is something that you do, especially when you.
<v Speaker 1>Have clientele that you know need someone they can reach
<v Speaker 1>out to, like they're more crisis oriented or high level,
<v Speaker 1>Like even if you're going to go away for like
<v Speaker 1>a long weekend, you might need to provide a touch
<v Speaker 1>person that they can get in contact with, especially someone
<v Speaker 1>who's unknown to him supposedly like Bob. He also tells
<v Speaker 1>Bob to go to the er when he first calls him,
<v Speaker 1>right when he's on vacation, and he's like he tries
<v Speaker 1>to have boundaries with him in the beginning, which isn't
<v Speaker 1>bad either. And I will say him pointing out that
<v Speaker 1>it was a positive when Bob made it all the
<v Speaker 1>way to the vacation home would also be something I
<v Speaker 1>could see me doing, Well, you know, it's great that
<v Speaker 1>you made it all the way here, like with your
<v Speaker 1>recophobia and stuff, like framing them as a positive and
<v Speaker 1>then also trying to set boundaries again, like go home, Bob. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>but go home, Bob, I'll.
<v Speaker 2>Call you in three hours. Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>But something he doesn't do, which I think is more
<v Speaker 1>the movie than necessarily even anything about Leo, unless you
<v Speaker 1>guys think differently, is no one takes Bob seriously enough.
<v Speaker 1>Like if I was in Leo's position and I had
<v Speaker 1>a client who was new to me, who's already done
<v Speaker 1>all this like stocky stuff to me, and my family's there,
<v Speaker 1>like the fact that like there's no conversation around, like Bob,
<v Speaker 1>if you don't go, I will have to call the police,
<v Speaker 1>Like you have to show me that you have control
<v Speaker 1>over yourself. You know, someone like Bob would probably get
<v Speaker 1>hospitalized very quickly into the and then there wouldn't be
<v Speaker 1>a movie. But someone presenting like Bob with their psychiatrists
<v Speaker 1>would get hospitalized. Oh well he got hospitals out of
<v Speaker 1>spite very late into the movie.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he got hospitalized.
<v Speaker 1>And there's no and maybe this is the ego part
<v Speaker 1>of Leo, but there's no urgency around how what is
<v Speaker 1>actually concerning about Bob is how unpredictable he is, how
<v Speaker 1>far he's willing to go. He's an unknown quantity to
<v Speaker 1>Leo other than what he's showing Leo, which is that
<v Speaker 1>I don't have boundaries. I don't know when to say no,
<v Speaker 1>I don't accept no as an answer. I don't know
<v Speaker 1>how far I'll go hang out with you, I'll go
<v Speaker 1>find your kids if I can't have access to you.
<v Speaker 1>And that is really troubling, and Leo gives him a
<v Speaker 1>lot of opportunities to turn it around and he doesn't.
<v Speaker 3>True, But because the movie is the movie, I do
<v Speaker 3>feel like in this there's like some interesting caveats. Is
<v Speaker 3>that Bob did comply, but Bob was easily tilted back
<v Speaker 3>by the old married couple and his daughter because remember
<v Speaker 3>Bob was just gonna walk.
<v Speaker 2>Bob left.
<v Speaker 3>He did comply, and the daughter picked him up all
<v Speaker 3>by herself.
<v Speaker 2>That was her own doing, and that you know, like
<v Speaker 2>looped things back in which.
<v Speaker 3>If it were my daughter and also surrounded forever, that
<v Speaker 3>feels bizarre too.
<v Speaker 1>And maybe it's the nineties, I don't know, but I
<v Speaker 1>feel like nowadays so weird. If I was with my
<v Speaker 1>family and someone that they knew was one of my
<v Speaker 1>clients just shut up out of the blue and was
<v Speaker 1>acting against what I was saying to them, I think
<v Speaker 1>they'd be more troubled than like curious or like hey, Bob,
<v Speaker 1>don't get discouraged. They would be like, uh, we saw
<v Speaker 1>that guy on the street. You might need to call
<v Speaker 1>the cops, or you might have to call someone because
<v Speaker 1>I think he needs help.
<v Speaker 2>Correct.
<v Speaker 3>I think i'd have, you know, probably need to come
<v Speaker 3>over with a handsdal from my wife. That means immediately
<v Speaker 3>call the police. Let's take a break. How have we
<v Speaker 3>not talked about the fact that Bob said he was
<v Speaker 3>fucking dead. Then Leo got the call that Bob killed
<v Speaker 3>himself and he's like.
<v Speaker 4>Oh that okay, I gotta be real.
<v Speaker 1>That made me laugh when he because because it's supposed
<v Speaker 1>to make you laugh, right, when Leo gets that call
<v Speaker 1>and he says, oh to his wife that kind of
<v Speaker 1>his head kill himself, Okay, Like I did laugh because
<v Speaker 1>it was so absurd, like the the mood change or
<v Speaker 1>the mood shift. But I think that just says more
<v Speaker 1>about Leo and his bullshit.
<v Speaker 2>Leo like his response.
<v Speaker 4>His response is insane.
<v Speaker 3>It's insane, it's super narcissistic, like all all but got
<v Speaker 3>to get my beauty sleep for the interview.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like it just sees my brain and I do
<v Speaker 1>think there's a certain level of compartmentalizing we do at
<v Speaker 1>this job because you kind of have to. But even
<v Speaker 1>if I only met with someone once, it would still
<v Speaker 1>like shake me like that would probably if nothing else,
<v Speaker 1>lay awake in bed for like another hour, just kind
<v Speaker 1>of thinking about it.
<v Speaker 3>Let me speak to someone that does has happened to
<v Speaker 3>all of those things. And it was the real deal
<v Speaker 3>for me. I got I had seen a person once
<v Speaker 3>and that was it. And Leo's response was ridiculous, we'd
<v Speaker 3>get messed up that even if you only see one once,
<v Speaker 3>you won't feel responsible. But still you're not going to
<v Speaker 3>just be like clap on, clap off. No, it's gonna
<v Speaker 3>mess you up, and you're gonna wonder and you're gonna
<v Speaker 3>be anxious and upset. And if you have any degree
<v Speaker 3>of empathy as a human, you know, somebody died and
<v Speaker 3>you probably won't feel like you could help them if
<v Speaker 3>you're a reasonable human. But it's still going across your
<v Speaker 3>mind and you're gonna be able to talk yourself out
<v Speaker 3>of it the first you know, five minutes, you're gonna
<v Speaker 3>be oh my god, what did I miss?
<v Speaker 2>And Leo's just like, well.
<v Speaker 1>That was definitely a point in the rioting to show
<v Speaker 1>us that Leo is a bus of shits.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and also that.
<v Speaker 1>He says, well, we're not gonna let it ruin our
<v Speaker 1>vacationer the bar.
<v Speaker 4>Fuck yeah, that quick.
<v Speaker 1>I don't fucking think so, Bro, you would be I
<v Speaker 1>would be a fucking wreck.
<v Speaker 2>No, I would be a wreck.
<v Speaker 4>How could you not be?
<v Speaker 2>Well?
<v Speaker 4>And also because no.
<v Speaker 3>You get messed up with human you can associated. I
<v Speaker 3>associated for a bit, I bet, like when I happened again,
<v Speaker 3>I felt terrible. But anybody I know that that's happened
<v Speaker 3>to because it will happen to all of us. They
<v Speaker 3>tell you in school, is gonna happen to you. And
<v Speaker 3>that Leo was such a piece of shit about it
<v Speaker 3>offended me as a therapist, But I mean he's supposed to.
<v Speaker 2>He's literally the fucking worst. Hey, it's the worst.
<v Speaker 1>Because I think a through line through all of it,
<v Speaker 1>like I said, is that he doesn't take Bob's erraticism seriously,
<v Speaker 1>like even in the office, like I can see when
<v Speaker 1>he first meets Bob and Bob's like rolling around on
<v Speaker 1>the ground, Like I don't think it's a bad response
<v Speaker 1>to not get caught up in that you know, like
<v Speaker 1>I could definitely see me. Especially if I think this
<v Speaker 1>is like a tension seeking behavior, it's not a bad
<v Speaker 1>therapeutic response to not get caught up in it. So
<v Speaker 1>just kind of the what he does there, which is
<v Speaker 1>just kind of sits there and waits for him to
<v Speaker 1>be done doing whatever he's doing, you know what I mean,
<v Speaker 1>that's that's appropriate if you know the client and you
<v Speaker 1>know why they do that, right, And I've worked with
<v Speaker 1>plenty of kids where I'm like, I'm not gonna get
<v Speaker 1>riled up by whatever you think you're doing. But like saying,
<v Speaker 1>like throughout this whole movie, he's not taking it seriously,
<v Speaker 1>and even like this, he's not taking that seriously or
<v Speaker 1>even doing the thing, which is a little more self serving,
<v Speaker 1>but I think also happens to therapist when you get
<v Speaker 1>in your head about did I miss something?
<v Speaker 2>Did I fuck up?
<v Speaker 1>Even if you're worried about your own ass, the fact
<v Speaker 1>that he just is so off his own I mean,
<v Speaker 1>this goes back to the ego part, right, Like he
<v Speaker 1>doesn't even have that beat of like, oh shit, I'm
<v Speaker 1>the last point of contact that this guy had before
<v Speaker 1>he died by suicide. Did I miss something up? Did
<v Speaker 1>I miss something. Am I going to get in trouble?
<v Speaker 1>And the only time he takes Bob seriously in terms
<v Speaker 1>of like go to the hospital is that despite because
<v Speaker 1>Bob is ruining his life and not because Bob needs
<v Speaker 1>to be in the hospital, because he is making a
<v Speaker 1>lot of impulsive, inappropriate, potentially dangerous choices.
<v Speaker 4>Where he could be harming himself for someone else.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he didn't even.
<v Speaker 3>Rationally explain that he's just like dropped if at the hospital,
<v Speaker 3>which means the psychiatrist there did the appropriate thing of
<v Speaker 3>they assessed him. All the staff everyone is like, he's fine,
<v Speaker 3>I can't keep him here.
<v Speaker 1>Well, that psych doctor was she was actually a real
<v Speaker 1>one in this movie, and that she assesses him as
<v Speaker 1>like a favor quote unquote to doctor Leo. But also
<v Speaker 1>I could see him being like, I'm gonna trust you
<v Speaker 1>that you're bringing someone in because he's acting.
<v Speaker 4>Who knows what Leo.
<v Speaker 1>Told her really, But she goes she like in thirty seconds,
<v Speaker 1>she does a better job of being a psych provider
<v Speaker 1>than he does. Where she goes, nothing's wrong with him,
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to keep him here at your request.
<v Speaker 1>If I've assessed that he's fine, I'm going to let
<v Speaker 1>you off the hook for this because this could be
<v Speaker 1>your ass. Like she also does him a favor by saying,
<v Speaker 1>like you can get him now or you cannot, and
<v Speaker 1>then we're gonna have a problem basically like I'm not
<v Speaker 1>like I'm And then she also says you shouldn't let
<v Speaker 1>him sleep in your pajamas. So she also says to him,
<v Speaker 1>this is your fault too. You blurred the lines with him,
<v Speaker 1>and so now it's weird. Now it's weird, and that's
<v Speaker 1>and now you're done putting up with him. So now
<v Speaker 1>he is to go to hospital when you reinforce this
<v Speaker 1>this relationship. Just how truly irresponsible he is in most
<v Speaker 1>aspects of portraying this and just what uh what a
<v Speaker 1>fucking asshole, you know, like a shit for brains? Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>just like what are you again? Like what are you
<v Speaker 1>doing in this field? Well, and with someone like Bob,
<v Speaker 1>how much mixed messaging he's giving him exactly need to
<v Speaker 1>go away, but I'll talk to you once, like you
<v Speaker 1>need to go away, but you can sleep in his bedroom.
<v Speaker 1>If someone had the diagnoses that we're giving to Bob
<v Speaker 1>and they were truly in distress in a real way,
<v Speaker 1>blowing them off or reinforcing their behavior is such.
<v Speaker 4>It's like the opposite of what you should be doing.
<v Speaker 2>Like that's what I mean.
<v Speaker 1>Like it's so comically bad. He's such an awful provider
<v Speaker 1>he has.
<v Speaker 2>It's so.
<v Speaker 1>Blatant with like no no sense of any consequences, well
<v Speaker 1>of any kind. It's just like wild to see that
<v Speaker 1>kind of dismissive person.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Bob should have been hospitalized immediately. Someone is that
<v Speaker 3>unwell that they're not perceiving consequences, they're showing an inability
<v Speaker 3>to care for self, detachment from reality that this is okay.
<v Speaker 3>Probably should be hospitalized at least evaluated at a hospital immediately,
<v Speaker 3>not dismissed, not out of your sight, Call an ambulance,
<v Speaker 3>get him on it, so that he is now adequately
<v Speaker 3>cared for and in the hands of someone else. But
<v Speaker 3>if he shows up on your doorstep, yeah, if he's
<v Speaker 3>not being unsafe, you can, you know, get him into
<v Speaker 3>an ambulance.
<v Speaker 2>But he hasn't got to go to the hospital.
<v Speaker 1>And also, one thing he never says to Bob, which
<v Speaker 1>is maybe neither here nor they're given the context is Bob,
<v Speaker 1>if you really want to work with me, if you
<v Speaker 1>really want to work with me after this, Like in
<v Speaker 1>the very beginning of this movie, like when he first
<v Speaker 1>shows up, we can't be friends, we can't hang out,
<v Speaker 1>we can't have a dual relationship. So he doesn't even
<v Speaker 1>try to meet Bob, where maybe Bob is thinking like
<v Speaker 1>buy in from Bob, Like if I was really going
<v Speaker 1>to give Bob the benefit of the doubt and be like, hey, buddy,
<v Speaker 1>it seems like you really want to work with me,
<v Speaker 1>that's great. And if we develop this personal dynamic because
<v Speaker 1>you're here on vacation where I am, and if.
<v Speaker 4>When he says like we don't have to work, we
<v Speaker 4>can just be friends.
<v Speaker 1>What he says that later in the movie, I think
<v Speaker 1>it says so much about how silly, stupid whatever Leo
<v Speaker 1>is that he doesn't use that to his advantage in
<v Speaker 1>a therapeutic way of like, hey, you really want to
<v Speaker 1>work with me, that's great. And if you can't go away, basically,
<v Speaker 1>if you can't keep our relationship professional, we can't work together.
<v Speaker 1>You you're gonna poison it. And once we have this
<v Speaker 1>personal dynamic, we I can't be your psychiatrists at all.
<v Speaker 1>And he doesn't even bring up that part of it
<v Speaker 1>that like what's inappropriate is like the dual relationship aspect
<v Speaker 1>of nothing else, none of it.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so seems like we're pretty pretty clear here that
<v Speaker 3>Leo Marvin is up there with among the worst psych providers,
<v Speaker 3>the worst examples.
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean he tries to kill him by the end,
<v Speaker 1>so we haven't even talked about that part he tries
<v Speaker 1>to He just tried.
<v Speaker 2>To trust.
<v Speaker 3>Him up, like yeah, well and then here's where it
<v Speaker 3>gets like good, the epilogue little PostScript thing made me
<v Speaker 3>fucking die laughing.
<v Speaker 2>That was brilliant comedy. That Bob marries his sister.
<v Speaker 3>And went back to school to become a psychologist and
<v Speaker 3>invent and then wrote a book called death Therapy because
<v Speaker 3>he thought what Leo was trying to do to him
<v Speaker 3>wasn't kill him, but teach him to overcome his fear
<v Speaker 3>of death, like exposure therapy, exposure therapy and prolonged exposure
<v Speaker 3>therapy in particular. Right, but Leo Marvin was suing him
<v Speaker 3>for the rights like absolute narcissistic personality move like oh no,
<v Speaker 3>you can't use the thing I invented.
<v Speaker 2>To try to kill you. I was having a psychotic
<v Speaker 2>break trying to kill you. You blew up my house
<v Speaker 2>and now I'm going to sue you for the rights
<v Speaker 2>of the method. I almost killed you with what.
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's that thing whereas he has if he has NPD,
<v Speaker 1>which is he can't lose, he cannot do it. He
<v Speaker 1>cannot give ground or anything he perceives as losing, and
<v Speaker 1>he can't lose to Bob. I mean, that's where this
<v Speaker 1>movie goes, is he can't lose to Bob. And Bob
<v Speaker 1>also fucked up the interview. Bob was getting more of
<v Speaker 1>the attention, like we didn't even talk about all that
<v Speaker 1>stuff like the good Morning American.
<v Speaker 4>Right like a beat that's the movie Bingers.
<v Speaker 1>And just talk about it in chronological order. But like
<v Speaker 1>even that part him saying that Bob's my patient, having
<v Speaker 1>Bob there, like.
<v Speaker 4>The way this hip hop was hip a thing in
<v Speaker 4>nineteen nine.
<v Speaker 1>It was ninety six, okay, but but still, like like
<v Speaker 1>I said, once again, this mixed messaging he's sending Bob,
<v Speaker 1>which is so irresponsible of like he's doing that push
<v Speaker 1>pull thing that will mix them with personal disorder. Go
<v Speaker 1>absolutely batchit and not their fault, you know what I mean,
<v Speaker 1>Like that really fucks with someone with person disorder, which
<v Speaker 1>is like go away.
<v Speaker 4>But you can sit here, next meeting, there's interview. Go away.
<v Speaker 4>You can sleep in my pajamas in my kid's bedroom.
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, Bob identified himself. He said he's a local
<v Speaker 2>man and Bob'sadva's patient.
<v Speaker 4>Oh okay.
<v Speaker 2>Bob identified himself, and the producer grabbed him.
<v Speaker 3>It's like, oh, you have a patient here, you're seeing patient,
<v Speaker 3>and since you're home, like yeah, and Leo couldn't then
<v Speaker 3>break face and just go.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I'm sorry, No, he's he's not part of this.
<v Speaker 4>But then it becomes that thing of like who's gonna
<v Speaker 4>win me or Bob?
<v Speaker 2>And also how do I keep the attention?
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I gotta boom. I gotta boom the fuck up.
<v Speaker 2>And save face.
<v Speaker 4>I gotta blow him up. The only way he kills him.
<v Speaker 2>I gotta kill you now, buddy, not shoot him. It's
<v Speaker 2>too messy.
<v Speaker 1>That's when he starts to do that in the movie,
<v Speaker 1>which I didn't remember this part at all. Yeah, I
<v Speaker 1>don't remember that I went this this far. But he's
<v Speaker 1>like talking, He's like that'd be too much. I was like,
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, he's gonna trying to kill Bob.
<v Speaker 4>He has lost his mind, Like he has lost his mind. Yeah,
<v Speaker 4>but anyway, should we take a break here and be back.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're at one. I don't even know if we need.
<v Speaker 4>To do treatment. I think we've done a lot of
<v Speaker 4>this is what you don't do.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't think this is a treatment movie. I
<v Speaker 3>think this is a how did not be doctor Leo asshole?
<v Speaker 1>Instead of doing treatment, we're just gonna basically reiterate that
<v Speaker 1>everything that Leo does in this movie is a therapist, psychiatrist, whatever.
<v Speaker 2>Don't do that.
<v Speaker 4>Everything he's doing isn't helpful for.
<v Speaker 1>Someone like Bob. Is the version of exposure therapy that
<v Speaker 1>could work if he is OCD like we speculate, Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>but not this.
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's not exposure therapy. He's trying to.
<v Speaker 2>He's trying to get therapy.
<v Speaker 4>It's death therapy.
<v Speaker 1>You know what you should do if you're if you're
<v Speaker 1>client scared of death, bury him alive in.
<v Speaker 2>A box in a box, to bury you alive in
<v Speaker 2>a box.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's just like, yeah, so don't do what Leo
<v Speaker 1>does honestly with someone like Bob. I guess the only
<v Speaker 1>thing I would say for treatment is he could probably
<v Speaker 1>benefit from a community mental health agency where like he
<v Speaker 1>gets visited on a regular basis by someone yes, who
<v Speaker 1>knows how to boundaries with him, like he'd be I
<v Speaker 1>work for Thresholds.
<v Speaker 4>I think he'd be a good threshold member.
<v Speaker 1>Like we definitely work with people like Bob where they
<v Speaker 1>just don't have like the best social skills. They because
<v Speaker 1>they have stuff going on mental health wise that their
<v Speaker 1>life small or their world small, or like they have
<v Speaker 1>trouble making community getting their needs met.
<v Speaker 2>So and like he actually lives in.
<v Speaker 1>A room that's very similar to like rooms we've had
<v Speaker 1>to visit people in like single room occupancies SROs Elwood.
<v Speaker 3>Blues was in one of the rooms you guys almost
<v Speaker 3>certainly went to in the Blues Brothers.
<v Speaker 2>So these this kind of room was featured a lot
<v Speaker 2>in movies of this era.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so he he would really benefit and I think
<v Speaker 1>he would probably do really well with having social workers
<v Speaker 1>who come to his place, encourage him to go out
<v Speaker 1>in the world, are with him like a lot, like
<v Speaker 1>with him if he wants to ride the bus, will
<v Speaker 1>take in places like it's a very wrap around the
<v Speaker 1>kind of service where we help people who struggle to
<v Speaker 1>be in the world independently get like social interaction, get
<v Speaker 1>community interaction, get their needs met like we help them
<v Speaker 1>kind of with the baby step stuff actually, like we'll
<v Speaker 1>ride the train with you, yeah, the l with you,
<v Speaker 1>and then maybe you can try on your own yep,
<v Speaker 1>And so I think he would really benefit from something
<v Speaker 1>like that. I think him going to this like fancy
<v Speaker 1>outpatient psychiatrist is not the right setting for someone like
<v Speaker 1>Bob at all, even from like an affordability sense, but
<v Speaker 1>just because that's not really what he needs. Like maybe
<v Speaker 1>Leo could give him medication. Maybe that's about it.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yeah, I think Bob clearly needs multiple layers, and
<v Speaker 3>more on the social work end probably than on the
<v Speaker 3>therapy end. Heuld probably benefit from both, but the full
<v Speaker 3>wrap around of medical, counseling, psychological, and social work. There's
<v Speaker 3>all professions covered a little bit different of an angle.
<v Speaker 3>The social work end is what you're talking about with
<v Speaker 3>community mental health think really that's more social work is
<v Speaker 3>geared to do, how do we help you access services
<v Speaker 3>and break down barriers to the systems that are full
<v Speaker 3>of barriers and nonsense for chronically ill people, like proving
<v Speaker 3>you are chronically ill every year with an illness that
<v Speaker 3>everyone else knows goes away or never goes away. Apologies Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>it's I think it's a brilliant idea for Bob, and
<v Speaker 3>I don't really have anything to add on to it
<v Speaker 3>beyond that because it's brilliant.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's the perfect response for someone like Bob.
<v Speaker 1>I think it would be really I think it would
<v Speaker 1>be really helpful. I think it would really give him
<v Speaker 1>a lot of opportunities to experience things in a different
<v Speaker 1>way versus the way that he perceives things, Like I
<v Speaker 1>think it would be really helpful to have somebody with
<v Speaker 1>him and going with him out in the world. I
<v Speaker 1>think it would really I really don't think there'd be
<v Speaker 1>a better treatment for Bob. And it's an opportunity to
<v Speaker 1>get more in the real world social guidance, like with
<v Speaker 1>people like Bob, Like I would do a lot of
<v Speaker 1>like hey, actual, Like that's not the way that you
<v Speaker 1>want to ask for that, Like, hey, actually, like this
<v Speaker 1>is how it feels when you do that instead of that,
<v Speaker 1>Like it allows for a lot more real world experiences
<v Speaker 1>and where you can help guide them gently and correct
<v Speaker 1>them as needed in terms of like the social skills
<v Speaker 1>stuff that he has trouble with. Like, I've had a
<v Speaker 1>lot of conversations with people about boundaries in the work
<v Speaker 1>that we've done, to the point that we had one
<v Speaker 1>person we worked with who would just as kind of
<v Speaker 1>a joke but not really would always say boundaries at
<v Speaker 1>me because she knew I was gonna say it first.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no tricks.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, let's take a break care and me back
<v Speaker 1>with final thoughts. So who wants to go first?
<v Speaker 4>Talk about what about Bob? I'll go first.
<v Speaker 1>So I feel like in another life, I've watched this
<v Speaker 1>movie a lot of times. I'm not really sure why,
<v Speaker 1>but I watched it and realize that I know this
<v Speaker 1>movie really well and did not realize that. So I
<v Speaker 1>don't know that I'll watch it again, just because I
<v Speaker 1>hadn't watched it in probably fifteen years. So I don't
<v Speaker 1>know that I will seek it out, especially because Leo
<v Speaker 1>is such an abomination of a provider. It's like uncomfortable
<v Speaker 1>to sit through. So I don't think I would watched
<v Speaker 1>the movie again. I did enjoy watching it. I do
<v Speaker 1>love Bill Murray the end I can go next. I
<v Speaker 1>bought this movie for seven ninety nine, so I probably
<v Speaker 1>should watch it again because oh, I resisted that one
<v Speaker 1>oh in this.
<v Speaker 4>Motion picture.
<v Speaker 1>Because I have such fun memories as to get watching it.
<v Speaker 1>This was definitely like a TBST and T movie, like
<v Speaker 1>maybe that was on TV oh.
<v Speaker 2>All the time, all the time, And they definitely cut
<v Speaker 2>some stuff out.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, oh for sure, and so can I.
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I'll really revisit this movie at
<v Speaker 1>my leisure. Bill Murray does crack my shit up, and
<v Speaker 1>there were parts of this movie that did crack me up.
<v Speaker 1>Like I've told you guys many times, I want his
<v Speaker 1>shirt that says, don't hassle me, I'm a local, so bad,
<v Speaker 1>so bad in that obnoxious nineties day cloass colors.
<v Speaker 2>Brittany, I think somebody can probably make that happen for you.
<v Speaker 1>Please someone, please send it to me, please one of us.
<v Speaker 1>But but I will say it's like a funny movie.
<v Speaker 1>If it wasn't so close to what we did, maybe
<v Speaker 1>I could enjoy it more. But it definitely is a
<v Speaker 1>movie that's just trying to like be haha, and the
<v Speaker 1>the plot devices are just unfortunately so close to what
<v Speaker 1>we actually do and have such like bad repercussions in
<v Speaker 1>terms of like.
<v Speaker 4>The stuff we do.
<v Speaker 1>So I would say it's a funny movie. They are
<v Speaker 1>parts of the genuinely made me laugh. I liked when
<v Speaker 1>he was tied to the sailboat mast and he was like,
<v Speaker 1>I'm sailing. Like, you're not sailing, dude, you are tied
<v Speaker 1>to a boat. So Bill Murray is hilarious and I
<v Speaker 1>do love Bill Murray. I have to fight my love
<v Speaker 1>of him. You guy should watch Bill Murray's Christmas special
<v Speaker 1>on at Flex if you're interested.
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's wild.
<v Speaker 4>But I don't know if I'll revisit this movie anytime soon.
<v Speaker 1>Just and also Richard Dreyfus, like something about him bristles
<v Speaker 1>mey same hate him.
<v Speaker 4>But that's all I have to say about that.
<v Speaker 2>You know, those two are only three years apart. Soccer Blue.
<v Speaker 4>Wow.
<v Speaker 2>Wow, three years apart? Really yep?
<v Speaker 5>Wow.
<v Speaker 4>I guess when you sua de vive it, you know,
<v Speaker 4>keeps you young.
<v Speaker 2>I guess you don't or he does. I don't know,
<v Speaker 2>but but so I love this movie.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know how much I'll watch it, but I
<v Speaker 3>think it passed the test of a all time comedy.
<v Speaker 3>That my wife watched it and was laughing and like chartling.
<v Speaker 1>She can.
<v Speaker 3>My wife has a great sense of humor, but she
<v Speaker 3>can also be a harsh judge. I don't know She's
<v Speaker 3>not like a person that sits there and goes haha
<v Speaker 3>or this isn't funny. But for her do they say,
<v Speaker 3>sit and enjoy a comedy. It's going to be a
<v Speaker 3>good one. And this one past that test. This is
<v Speaker 3>a good one. It's really funny. But I share the
<v Speaker 3>same sentiment because I do what I do now because
<v Speaker 3>it's represented so.
<v Speaker 2>Terribly, it bugs me a little bit.
<v Speaker 3>But at least it was done deliberately, as opposed to
<v Speaker 3>like every other show where they include a therapist and like,
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't it be wild if we had the therapists fall
<v Speaker 3>in love with their client again?
<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, like Leo is is also a cartoon.
<v Speaker 2>He's a cartoon.
<v Speaker 4>I mean, he makes it more it's a it's a
<v Speaker 4>cartoon movie.
<v Speaker 2>He turns into Wiley movie. It's for real, like literally
<v Speaker 2>goes to the Acme starre.
<v Speaker 4>I mean her.
<v Speaker 2>Stop, I mean, yeah, nuts, and he starts monologuing. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>it's just it's glorious in the way they did it.
<v Speaker 3>It's obvious, it's absurd, and that they're flipping the script
<v Speaker 3>and the like Bob becomes the therapist is fucking hilarious.
<v Speaker 3>So I mean, I'll probably watch the movie, and I
<v Speaker 3>just it might be another fifteen years, but it is
<v Speaker 3>worth the watch. It's worth the entertainment. Bill Murray is
<v Speaker 3>a treasure, even though he was apparently a giant asshole
<v Speaker 3>onness and Richard Dreyfus was mad at him.
<v Speaker 2>For thirty four years.
<v Speaker 3>Wow, he did not forgive him until twenty twenty five
<v Speaker 3>last year.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, damn, holy fuck. He was upset. But I mean
<v Speaker 2>also through an ashtray his face. Yeah, that's like, it's
<v Speaker 2>a lot. It was screaming, like, if you are a good.
<v Speaker 4>Actor, you don't have to do that kind of shit.
<v Speaker 4>You don't have to be a mania.
<v Speaker 1>Just act when they say to act, Yeah.
<v Speaker 4>You don't have to be berserker.
<v Speaker 3>Well that was off. That wasn't cameras rolling. That was
<v Speaker 3>like on the set he was being like a bullying kid.
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, we'll wrap up here as always if
<v Speaker 1>you would like to find us. We're not super active
<v Speaker 1>on social media anymore because all social media is starting
<v Speaker 1>to be occupied by technocrat horrible monsters. So right now
<v Speaker 1>we're really only still on Instagram and Facebook at Popcorn Psychology.
<v Speaker 4>You can always email us, though.
<v Speaker 2>It would be we would respond.
<v Speaker 1>To you at popropsychologygmail dot com.
<v Speaker 4>That's a direct way to get to us.
<v Speaker 1>If you want to patronize us in any way, you
<v Speaker 1>can buy some of our merch ontee public. You can
<v Speaker 1>also become a Patreon patron and you can get early
<v Speaker 1>undated access to some of our episodes, and if you're
<v Speaker 1>a fifty dollars or more patren you can pick the
<v Speaker 1>subject of an episode so you can tell us to
<v Speaker 1>do whatever your version of what about Bob is. If
<v Speaker 1>you want to support us for free, you can always
<v Speaker 1>leave us ratings and reviews wherever you listen to podcasts.
<v Speaker 1>It is actually the best way for new listeners to
<v Speaker 1>find us, so we do really actually appreciate that, and
<v Speaker 1>we read your reviews and appreciate those two. So everybody,
<v Speaker 1>don't work with a doctor Leo if you can help it,
<v Speaker 1>and welcome to season nine
<v Speaker 2>Later Testicle head Bosom Beaver, good job.