Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep36 - Is the Fear Genetic? Tough Decisions about Keeper Puppies

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

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And this is a Puppy Culture
Potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,

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we bring the conversation.

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This episode's question

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is the third

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in my temperament versus behavior

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and selecting breeding stock trifecta.

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The other two episodes are episode 28
and our last episode,

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episode 34.

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I strongly recommend if you can go back
and listen to episode 28,

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because that's where I talk very

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generally about the limits
of modifying genetic behavior.

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But here goes.

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Here's the question.

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Buckle up because it's a long one.

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But I think it's all relevant.

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I'm posting anonymously

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because I'm really sad about my situation.

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I don't want this to reflect poorly
on my small breeding program

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that I poured so much time, thought,
stress, money, and emotional energy into.

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I recently got to keep a puppy for my own

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breeding finally, after years of waiting,

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all the puppies have been raised
with puppy culture.

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We also Volhard temperament
testing and various

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socialization and enrichment activities.

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I raised these puppies
so I know exactly what they went through

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and how much effort was put in.

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Well, my keeper

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puppy is now showing
pretty significant fear issues.

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The puppy is almost 14 weeks old.

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I noticed changes several weeks ago.

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The puppy has been going on outings

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very regularly,
meaning several times a week.

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The first time I noticed significant
fear was when

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two dogs were barking very excitedly
and jumping on a fence.

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It completely panicked the puppy
who took off running with tail tucked.

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She was in a fenced yard
and ran all the way

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to the fence door,
where she desperately tried escaping.

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Since
this incident, my puppy has been terrified

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of people and dogs in general,
but also randomly other things at times.

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She won't allow people
to approach her at all.

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I enjoy hiking,
but if someone's coming towards us

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on the trail,
she panics and tries to bolt.

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She doesn't allow any interaction
with people outside of my home,

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and she's even leery of guests
in our home.

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She was very well socialized,
with tons of people

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on and off the property
with her litter mates.

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If I pick her up and carry her,
she panics and tries

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to jump out of my arms
as we pass by people.

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I can feel her heart beating
a million miles a minute.

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Note that I do not force any interaction.

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She's also terrified of other dogs
besides the ones she lives with.

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Aside from the barking incident,
she's never had a bad experience

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with other dogs prior to her sudden
fear of them.

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I had her out recently
on a walk on a calm environment.

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An old golden retriever
passed by leisurely

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and she tucked her tail
and bolted to hide under a car.

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There is a German Shepherd that lives
next door that barks quite frequently.

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She's fine with his barking,
but any other dog

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barking sets her into a panic.

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We did do the sound habituation
with the litter also.

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Most recently.

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I pulled my car up to our back gate.

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All the dogs came running up to the gate
except her.

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She tucked her tail and bolted
as fast as she could

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to the other side of our very large yard.

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After I got out of the car,
she was afraid of me

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and was peering at me from behind a tree.

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After she realized it was me,

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she cautiously approached
and it took her a minute to accept me.

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I'm at a loss for this behavior.

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I have never had a single puppy
owner report

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back fear problems with any of my puppies.

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I'm very dog savvy
with a ton of experience.

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Yet here I am with this puppy
that most people would

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assume was grossly under socialized.

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This situation is really bumming me out.

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I'm not sure where we go from here.

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Some people are saying keep exposing her.

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Some say keep her home for a few weeks.

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At first I thought this was a fear period,
but it seems to be lasting way longer

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than just a few days
and is pretty generalized

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to a lot of instances
and not specific to any particular thing.

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I was hoping to keep this puppy

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and eventually use her in my program.

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My biggest concern is
that this is genetic fear

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and she will not outgrow or overcome it.

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This is depressing me, quite honestly,
and I'm

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feeling very deer in the headlights
about how to move forward.

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Okay, this is me again.

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First of all,

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my heart goes out to this breeder.

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I don't

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normally take these kinds of questions,

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and I don't normally publish
these kinds of posts

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because essentially it's an entire case
history

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that needs a consult.

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But because the behavior

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is apparently extreme at a very young age,

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I feel like some general observations
can be made, and this could be

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at least a teaching moment.

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So the question specifically is whether

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she should keep working with this puppy
in the hopes that the puppy

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will grow out of this and become a valued
part of the breeding program.

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I have experienced

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this exact scenario,
and for what it's worth.

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This is what I decided
and how it turned out for us.

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My fearful puppy was also my pick

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and the fear issues
began at around the same age.

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Gorgeous. Sweet puppy.

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Tested
unremarkably on the puppy assessments,

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suddenly started becoming fearful
at around 12 weeks old.

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Despite her robust

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socialization up until that point
and my continued efforts to work with her,

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she rapidly became more and more fearful.

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Now, I don't know if everyone knows this,
so I'll say it

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that I am also a professional dog trainer
as well as a breeder.

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And I have a rule in my dog training

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program called Get to Zero,

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meaning to say whatever you're working

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on, whether it's counter
conditioning, fear,

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or teaching a normal dog
to do a down stay.

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You have to get to a place where

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the dog doesn't
have so much emotional interference

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that they can't be counter conditioned
or they can't learn.

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If a dog is afraid of vacuum cleaners.

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You have to start with the vacuum
cleaner far

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enough away that they barely notice it.

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You just want enough sound
so that the dog definitely hears it,

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but they do not react to it.

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If you want to teach it down, stay.

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You start in your living room,
then move to the back deck, then the back,

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then the front yard, then a familiar place
that's not your home and systematically

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work your way up to a busy venue
with other dogs and people around.

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If you are reasonably competent trainer

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and your dog is clinically normal,

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this will be a fairly systematic,
straightforward process.

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There may be small regressions here

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and there, but your zero point

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will be moving forward
in a somewhat linear fashion.

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If you haven't

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overbid where your zero point is
and flooded the dog

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and wound up sensitizing him
instead of counter conditioning him,

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this is a process that should move forward
without a lot of effort or drama.

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You can't rush it, but it should be fairly
predictable where your zero point is

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and that zero point
should be moving forward,

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not backward.

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When you see a dog who,

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despite having had excellent early
socialization,

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becomes suddenly fearful
of the familiar around 12 weeks old,

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your first thought, of course, is that
this could be a late fear period.

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But when,

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despite gently working with the puppy,
the zero point

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keeps regressing
instead of moving forward.

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And when that happens
over the course of weeks, not days,

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now we start to think about it
being a pathological problem

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that might need pharmaceutical support.

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My puppy that was fearful started
with not wanting to go

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for a walk
on the front acres of the property,

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despite working with her gently
and giving her

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the space to do things on her own
without forcing her.

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She got worse and worse.

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First, would not walk all the way down
the driveway,

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then would not walk down the front walk

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then would not come off the front porch,
then would not go out the front door

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and my puppy, like hers,

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had similar fears
about just about everything else.

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I only used the front lawn example
because that's how we first noticed it.

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So now by five months old,

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we had a puppy
that absolutely could not get to zero.

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There was literally no place in the world
where she was not afraid.

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We could not work with her to counter
conditioned her

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because there was no place to start.

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So when I see a dog who has no zero point

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and or the zero point changes

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without any predictable antecedents,

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I feel pharmaceutical support
is indicated.

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Now, I'm not a veterinary behaviorist.

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I'm not going to talk about prescription
or what you prescribe,

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but you can't work with a dog
that is literally afraid of life

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and whose triggers are routine things
in life

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that you can't shield them
from or control.

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So now it's time to go see

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a veterinarian
or a veterinary behaviorist.

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We chose to put that puppy,

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my fearful puppy, on an SSRI medication,

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and the transformation
was almost miraculous.

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Within two months
after being on the medication,

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she was so much better that we were able
to take her with us to a dog show.

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We didn't show her.

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She just came along with the pack
for the ride and it was a big specialty.

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And of course, everyone noticed
how beautiful and sweet she was.

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And everyone told me

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I was crazy to place
her, that I should show her and breed her.

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But they only saw her on drugs

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and I knew who
she was underneath all that.

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It's just my personal feeling

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that I don't want to breed dogs
that need Prozac to function,

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even if they're wonderful
when they're on Prozac.

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It's also my feeling in general,

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that I don't really need to show a dog
that is not breeding stock,

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even if that dog is a dog
that could win a lot in the show ring.

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I prefer to move on to the next generation
and let everyone,

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including the dog,
get on with their lives.

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This is not a rule
and I don't think badly of people

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who show dogs that won't be bred,
but take it for what it's worth.

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That's my position.

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So in this case, we place that gorgeous

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puppy with a nice family in
New England in a rural area.

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She never

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really did great on walks
in unfamiliar areas,

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but she was truly their heart dog

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and she could not have been better
for them.

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Helped raise their grandchildren.

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Wonderful with visiting people and dogs.

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Secure in her own home,

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but never was going to be a dog

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that was going to do well
outside of her house.

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They wrote to me all the time

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and said they know
she did not fill my hopes and dreams

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for my breeding program,
but she was the best dog in the world,

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and they thank me again and again
for bringing her into the world.

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That dog passed away
just recently and the family

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is really almost inconsolable.

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What a great dog, but not a dog.

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I'm going to put in my breeding program.

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So that's a long way of saying

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I would probably consult
with a veterinary behaviorist

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and see if they felt an SSRI medication
might be indicated

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for the fearful dog.

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If the drugs make a big difference,

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then I would engage
in a systematic counter conditioning

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program socialization program
in the coming months

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and get her into a suitable quiet

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pet home. To you

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this might be a disappointment,
but to the people that get her,

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it could be the most wonderful thing
in the world.

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Breeding is, frankly,

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a lot about shouldering
this kind of disappointment.

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I could go on for days

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about the best
in show potential puppies that I bred,

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that have not worked out
temperamentally, that have died

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and that have disappeared
with capricious co-owners.

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My ultimate

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advice is to get the puppy evaluated

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by a veterinary behaviorist and decide
what's going on.

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Then take the best of that litter
for your breeding program,

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even if it's not the one you hoped
it would be,

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and move on.

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Before I sign off on this one.

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I want to emphasize

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how much really

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and truly
my heart goes out to this breeder

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because I feel everything she's saying.

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The amount of effort

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that modern dog breeders
put into each individual puppy,

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and the amount of hope that we place

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in our small breeding programs is immense.

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And it does set us up for some emotional,
hard times,

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because ultimately,

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it's not

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really realistic
to have a small breeding program

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and expect that everything

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emotionally is going to work out for you
the way you hope it might.

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You know, dog breeding

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at least fanciers for for purebred
dog breeding

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was traditionally the realm of the rich.

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I mean, rich people bred dogs.

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They or or commercial breeders bred dogs,

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and they had hundreds of dogs in a kennel
with a staff.

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And it was not,

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you know, as an emotional venture

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as it is for us today
because the dogs didn't

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live in their house,
they lived in a kennel.

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They picked the best ones
that they had a better ability to be clear

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eyed about things and less invested
in each individual animal.

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I think that is a better way

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to build a really good breeding program.

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It's not something that I could do

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because I'm in this
because I love my dogs.

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I they sleep in my bed at night.

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They're each dog has a career long
after their breeding career.

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They're a treasured part of the family.

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It's it's not for me to have

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a kennel of 100 dogs,
but I'm just telling you right now

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the kind of emotional letdown
that she's feeling.

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I've been there.

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We all have.

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This is what it is
to have a small breeding program.

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So, you know, it's oft said that

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people get into breeding
and then within five years they get out.

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And why is that?

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And people want instant gratification
and yadda yadda, and I, I disagree.

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I think that a lot of it
is just unrealistic expectations,

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for a very small breeding programs
and the expectation

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that if you breed two good dogs together,
you're going to get ten good puppies.

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I mean, you have to be ready

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to accept the emotional blows
and they're going to be there.

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I'm not saying that

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everyone has what it takes
to accept those emotional blows

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and keep going with the small breeding
program, and it's no harm, no foul.

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There's no shame in it.

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If you're just like, I just want to have
some pets, I can't do this

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but understand that God is looking

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at the population genetics of dogs,
and you're going to get whatever

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the roulette wheel gives you,
and sometimes it's not what you want.

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Of course, selecting the best
genetic stock in your small

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breeding program and moving forward,
good dog to good dog.

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You're going to make progress,
but it's not going to be linear and

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you're going to have emotional setbacks
if you're attached to those dogs.

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I mean, you can be attached to them
as much as you want,

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but I mean attached to them
in the sense of attached

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to the idea of using those dogs

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in your breeding program, either
because you love the dog

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or because you just put a lot of hope
in this particular breeding.

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So I really give this woman a virtual hug

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because obviously she's doing
all the right things

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by these puppies,
and she's a good breeder,

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and she wants to do better
with her temperaments, with her program.

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And we need people like her.

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And I want her to continue.

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But I think sometimes the only way

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you can continue is to understand

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that you can't solve every problem,
and things aren't

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always going to work out the way
we want them to.

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If you liked this podcast,
you'll love our booklets.

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00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,800
We have puppy exercise booklets,

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00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,280
be your puppies
advocate booklets, booklets on the pros

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00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,760
and cons of spaying and neutering puppies.

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00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,600
Check them all out at puppyculture.com.

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Well, that's it for this time.

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Thanks for listening. Bye bye.