Real Women Have Curves with Mala Muñoz

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Speaker 1: On the Bel cast. The questions asked if movies have women in them? Are All their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Do they have individualism? The Patriarchy? Zef in, best start changing it with the Beck del cast. Jamie, it's so hot in here. Can you please turn the fan on in this recording studio? It gets, it gets the PODCAST, dusty, can't. Can't turn on the fan. The podcast will be covered. It does, it will be a catastrophe for us. Sorry, we'll fine. I'll just take off all my clothes then. All right, that's not my business. I guess I'll do the same. Cool, same, yeah, that sounds great. Actually, the only person that's going to piss off is mommy, Mommy podcast. Cool. Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. Yeah, that I get that resolved very cleanly. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist Lens, using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion, which, of course, is a media metric created by careeer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, whereby two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other and their conversation has to be about something other than a man, and ideally, for our sake, it is a meaningful, substantial conversation and not just like Hey, what Um now, keep this going, this feels this sounds good, this feels good. How's your soup? And then the other person says, I'm not listening to you, go away, and then the first character disappears forever and they're like, my name is crystal as they're leaving, but it's too late. We didn't year it on screen. That's an example of something that is great writing, but not great to pass it. Look anyways, it's a flawed metric, because that was an amazing scene we just did. I'm going to base an entire screenplay around it. Yeah, it's called it's gonna be called a suit, an extremely supi movie, an extremely no, no, it's not, and I can't engage with this joke any further. I can. I draw the line. Look, look, in the case of today's episode, Bechtel Test Not a problem. Let's just say that right now. No problem at all. Yes, and so I said, let's let's get to it. Let's get our incredible returning becktel cast guest into the room. Let's get her in the mix. We simply must. She's a comedian, podcaster, creator and host of a podcast for potheads, and do you remember her from our episode on Selena? It's Mama unios. Okay, everyone, thank you for having me. It feels great to be back. It's our pleasure and it is also mine. We brought you back in one degree heat. It's you know what, there's literally nothing else I would rather be doing than podcasting about this film in a heat wave. It's apt. It makes sense. Yeah, I feel like I'm in the movie. It's true. We were joking about how, by the end of the episode, we will all be taking our clothes off, hopefully because of the heat. Look, PR nightmare. Maybe we'LL HR get involved, may possibly. Am I open to it? Yes, it's so. Today it is one hundred, or like ninety seven degrees in where I'm at in l a right now. Unpleasant, but you know, it's not unpleasant the movie, Oh my God, Very Fun Watch, very enjoyable. Real women have curves. Mala, what's your relationship, your history with this film? You know, I feel like my relationship with the film starts with my relationship with America Ferrera, because she was like a Disney Channel Darling. She was in gotta kick it up, about the Latina dance team, and that's where, like, I was born in ninety two. That's where I was first introduced to America Ferrera. So when real women have curves came out, it was like, Oh, this is a recognizable actress who we love and she had this incredible like role and I don't know if that's a movie that a lot of people have seen, but in like little Latina circles, gotta kick it up, real women have curves super just iconic, like staples of our media diet. So did you see real women have curves, like right when it came out, you know, so two thousand two. I don't remember where I was or where I saw it. I just remember that like it was like this standout movie to me because of of loop anti vettos is in it, George Lopez is in it, America Frere is in it and there are others throughout the film who are iconic actors and actresses, but I remember thinking like Oh my God, like this little movie is like has all these recognizable faces that I've seen in all these other projects, like, you know, loop ant Thi vetto's played in the Selena biopick. So so for that reason it was like wow, like I've seen these faces in all these other projects, Disney channel, Selena, George Lopez, and now they're all here in this one movie, like that's fucking sick. What a great cast and like really amazing performances across the board. And learning about the I mean, we'll get into it, but like learning about the production history of this movie is like very frustrating and very fascinating and I just like I can't wait to get into it. Truly agreed. Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie? I had kind of a similar journey. I I every deep calm that came out was my favorite movie, and so got to kick it up was, I feel, like a significant one that was like kind of in like the Upper Pantheon of D coms. I really, really loved it. That was definitely how I even though I think that technically real women have curves, was made before got to kick it up. Definitely learned about America Ferra and like fell in love with her through got to kick it up, and I don't remember, I know I saw real women have curves when I was a kid. I was trying to sort out in my head the sequence of events of like I might have seen, like got to kick it up, sisterhood of the traveling pants and then seen real women have curves. To be like we have to get into vintage America Ferrara, but I definitely saw it when I was in like either late middle school early high school. Really really loved it. Um have revisited it a couple of times over the years, but I hadn't seen it in a really long time and definitely not since I had moved to L A, and so it was like such a delight to like revisit. I really love this movie and, yeah, getting to learn more about the film and kind of the the adult like I feel like this is such a cool example of like adapting something into a movie well, which is so often done badly or sloppily or lazily or whatever, but like this is just like a beautiful adaptation and I'm so excited to talk about it. Yeah, Caitlyn, what's your history with real women have curbs? I saw this movie in high school because I came out in two thousand two. I think I would have seen it in like two thousand three or four when I was about honest character's age in the movie, because I think, if my memory serves me correctly, my mom had heard about this movie and was like, I heard it's really good. Roger Eber gave it three and a half stars. Let's watch it, let's rent it from the video store, the ultimate yard stick. This is a very like. I feel like I probably watched this with my mom. It's a very mother like. There's not a lot of mother daughter movie, I mean, and the relationship will get there. But and it would have required someone, we had to have the DVD of this film to watch it. So I feel like I went to blockbuster or someone recommended it and and because I don't remember seeing it in the movie theaters or on TV, like I feel like it was a DVD situation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's my recollection as well. Gosh, like yeah, like the the later blockbuster years. What a beautiful what a beautiful time, and it's twilight. Does anyone remember the last dvd they got from blockbuster? Wow, I think that's a fun question. My hometown was so small that we didn't even have a blockbuster. We had to go to just like the local video rental store, which I don't even remember what it was called now. It might have just been called like video store, the video store. Amazing Um. Anyway. So, yeah, I saw it in high school as a teenager and I haven't watched it since then, I don't think. But there were two scenes in particular that are just like steered into my memory. You know, when you watch a movie that you and then you you don't see it for years, but they are just like little moments that you will never forget and then have just been like logged into your memory bank forever. The scene where America, for era, is like admiring her body. She like pulls her robe open and it's like looking at herself in the mirror, and then her mom comes in and she like immediately knows that she's lost her virginity. That like was completely steered into my memory. And then the climactic scene at the end when all the women at the dress factory are taking their clothes off and comparing bodies and on his mom is horrified, like what a great scene. I will never forget that. The other scene that I did not remember her mom being like you lost her virginity and being right. I was like, Oh, I'm glad. I'm kind of glad that didn't stick with me. I was like how did she know that? Uh, but I think it was steered into my memory because I was so afraid that that would happen to me with my right like you can tell like I do. I look different. And in that scene too, she opens with like she uses such strong language with Anna, like throughout the movie. One of the things that really sticks out to me is like the vocabulary that Garman, that Anna's mother uses so like immediately in that scene she's like you tramp, and then she tells her like not only are you fat, you know, very hard language that just really punctuates like every aspect of the scene totally. One of the scenes that stuck with me the hardest on this viewing was the scene where it's like on his first day working at the factory and her mom is body shaming her and then the second another person enters the room she's all of a sudden nice and you're like, oh no, I know that dynamic, like that's so that I don't know how many times I've like seen that like on screen, like depicted in a very straightforward way of like well, yeah, like you know, I could be a total asshole to you when no one's around, but then the second there's a third party might demeanor completely changes and you're like yeah, that's I saw that a ton growing up, like it's just yeah, Anna's mom has this way of just like raining on her parade like at every possible moment, like even from the opening scene of them, because like that scene where she's like talking bad to Anna, like Anna's like admiring a dress on one of the mannequins and she's just looking at it and how pretty it is, and her mother immediately comes in with you can't fit into that, like you're way too fat. There's no way there's enough fabric to cover you. Like look at your chee cheese, they're so huge. And then in Wox Norma and even the very first scene of the movie, Anna's on her way to school, her last day of high school, and her mom is sick in bed and asking her to stay home to make breakfast for the men. You know, she's just like a party pooper throughout the whole film. That's that seemed like at the factory, like truly I was like, Oh my God, she was literally just standing there and the like. It turned into an attack, like Oh yeah, yeah, we will unpack that relationship soon. Yes, it's wild because she's so likable, she's so lovable the mom even when she's saying all these horrible things, like she's still kind of funny when she's saying them, and like the tension between the two of them is like, I don't know, there's something still endearing about her even as she infuriates you. You know right. I feel like a lot of that is just like Lupe onto be of those performance as well, like her man across the board. Like every performance in this movie is so good and like layered and full of heart, and I mean the fact that like America Ferra was fifteen when she started this movie and like the whole range of like she's just so fucking talented. It is such a good movie. I am sad I slept on it for all of those years in between, like when I first saw it, and now you're back based I'm back, baby. Um. Shall I do the recap? Let's do it. Okay. So we meet Anna Garcia, played by America Ferrera. She's a teenager who is about to finish high school in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it? We meet her family, her sister, a Stella, played by Ingrid and I'm not sure how to pronounce her last name, Oly You, Um, Her dad, role played by Jorgees Rivera Jr, her grandfather, her like Abulito, and then her mom, Carmen, played by Loupe Ontiveros, who Anna has a loving but difficult relationship with, as we've hinted at and will discuss further. Carmen, we will learn, gets on honest case about a lot of different things and has certain pretty rigid expectations for Anna and and for Estella. Yes, Anna heads to her last day of high school. She and her family live in I think east L A, boil heights, but right, because that was like very based on the source material. This was adapted from a play, I know we'll talk about this, but played by Josafina Lopez, who writes about boil heights. A ton like that is very much her background in her community. And Yeah, Yep, but Anna takes several city buses to get to school in Beverly Hills. Her teacher, Mr Gooseman, played by George Lopez, asks her about her college applications, but she says she's not going to college because her family cannot afford it. He reminds her that there are scholarships, grants, financial aid, but she's like, I don't know. Not that she doesn't want to, it's just she knows it's going to be like an issue within the family. Exactly. Um Her family throws a little congrats on graduating high school celebration. We also see Anna quit her job at a fast food joint, which upsets her mom, but it's a fun scene to watch her quitn I loved watching her Quinn. That was very fun and I actually think that the cashier is Lopez, the one who hands her. She is in the movie as a character named Veronica, but I was like, who's Veronica? I couldn't remember exactly. That's so cool. All right, that's great and she killed it. She was so great. And that unseen she's keeping on his check in her Bra and Anna's like that's sick. Now I like that seat even more. I was just like where the character actor was was really funny and now that I'm like looking at her picture again, I'm like, Oh yeah, that totally was her. Amazing. So on a quit her job, which upsets her mom, who suggests she works at the clothing factory that her sister, Estella runs, something that neither Anna nor Estella really want. But Anna needs to learn, needs to earn money to help the family, and Estella is behind on her work orders, so she will go to work at the factory. Mr Gusmand pays on a visit to keep encouraging her to submit college applications, but her family, and her mom especially, are against Anna going to college right now because she needs to work and help the family. The next day Anna and her sister and mom go to Estella's clothing factory where they assemble dresses to be sold at Bloomingdale's for six dollars, even though the manufacturer only pays them eighteen dollars per dress to assemble each dress, and Anna points out how unfair this is, how their labor is being exploited. Also, I think probably at the time that would have been the first time I had heard that issue discussed in a movie like at all, for sure. Yeah, there's a an interesting class discussion around this movie, for sure. And then we meet the other women who work at the factory, such as Pancha, Norma and Rosalie. Also on his mom, Carmen, body shames on a several times and tends to comment on most people's weight. That's just kind of a habit of hers. Yeah, because there's that scene where, I mean the scene we were just talking about, where she is verbally towards her daughter. Someone like her employees start to arrive and then she's nice to them, but then she also turns on her employees pretty quickly and starts criticizing them as well, and you're like, Oh, I guess this is just her personality. So everybody gets it. Yeah, she gives it to everybody. Everyone gets slice. You get a polite hello and then things take a turn up. So then Anna gives her filled out college applications to Mr Goose Band, but he points out that she's missing a personal statement and that she needs to write one as soon as possible. Then Anna runs into her classmate Jimmy, who seems to like her. He's got a little crush and he gives on his phone number back at the factory, Estella is struggling to keep up with the work order, especially after several of her workers unexpectedly leave to move to Mexico. Then we get a scene where carman tells anna a secret, that Carmen thinks she's pregnant, but Anna is like mom, that's pretty unlikely, probably not what's happening. For All the ship that Anna has to put up with, I love that she's always very quick to be like enough, like stop, no, she advocates for herself exceptionally well. Yeah, and I love her for it, even in situations where you can tell, like I don't know or where it felt to me like you could tell, she's like, I'm not going to win this battle, but I have to say this, like, you're not pregnant, mom. So then Anna goes with Estella to speak to Mrs Glass, who is the owner of the dress manufacturing company, to ask for an advance so they can pay the bills and keep the lights running at the factory. But Mrs Glass Still Denies Them An advance. So then Anna goes to her dad for a loan. Meanwhile, Anna goes out on a date with that kid Jimmy. They have a nice time. He's got big that kid Jimmy Energy too. Like I was like, who is this Elijah would ask looking kid because, yeah, Elijah Wood wasn't available. Slash. He's too old. That kid Jimmy. He was only in movies for a couple of years and then he who knows, he tapped out and he's done. I liked his character, though, you know, he said some things that made me go, but overall agree with that. He was. He seems like a sweet kid. He's he's very like her first nice white boyfriend. You know, it's it's an experience, it's a type. It's, Oh, I had a nice white boyfriends like back home, like and that's him, right, right, yeah, so she goes out with Jimmy. Anna then turns in her personal statement to Mr Gooseman. Let me see, another day at work. It's hard, it's hot. Anna admires the dresses she steams at the factory and it is sad to remember that they're not for her. But then Astella surprises Anna with a dress that she made especially for Anna in a very sweet moment part and it is a beautiful dress too, and I always wish there was like a dress reveal moment, like an occasion for her wear that dress. It was like, is there a cut scene, because it felt like Chekhov's dress. Exactly where is the dress? Where is she wearing it? Yeah, I hope she wore it at like some I don't know, some New York event. Yeah, she goes to a mixer at Columbia. Yeah, yeah, she's like, I just wore a gown to orientation. Is that normal? Can you do that? Then Mr Guzman stops by to let Anna know that she's been accepted to Columbia University with a full scholarship, but her parents are still like now is not the right time for Anna to go to college, which is extremely disappointing to Anna. She then goes out with Jimmy again. They have sex, her mom senses that she has lost her virginity and, like we were saying earlier, she calls on a tramp and a Puta and one of the biggest mysteries of the movie. How did she know? How did she know it was it because America frer was like looking at you in the mirror being like go meet like why how did she know? My guess is that she was just like confidently admiring her body, body for the first time ever. Right. So she's like, I better, I better put an end to this confidence. My daughter's feeling. That was more the spiky sense going off was I think my daughter is having a good feeling. It's like her favorite refrain. She's always like a mother knows, a woman knows, and this time she was right. She turns out to not be right about being pregnant because she goes to the doctor, take a hundred shots and yeah, you're gonna make one eventually. True, the reason that Carmen has missed several periods in a row is a bit is because she is going through menopause, not because she is gregnant. So then we see another day at the dress factory. It's a particularly hot day and Estella won't turn on the fan because it blows dust on the dresses. So Anna takes off her shirt and her mom freaks out, but Anna is like, what's the big deal? We're all women here, we all have the same parts. And then all of the other women at the factory take their clothes off. They compare bodies, they compare cellulate and stretch marks and they're like we're beautiful, we're awesome. But Carmen is looking on in horror and Anna is just like, this is who we are, mom, real women, and Carmen storms out, while the other ladies continue working and dancing and celebrating themselves and their bodies. I'm I'm interested in talking about the shooting situation around that scene. There's UH, there's a lot to talk about there too. Oh, I'm interested to learn more. And then, finally, on a heads off to Columbia University. She tries to say goodbye to Carmen and to get her mom's blessing, but Carmen refuses, so her dad and GRANDPA take on a to the airport and then we see on a walking down the streets of New York City. Ever heard of it? And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss and we're back. I feel like a little bit of context for how this movie came to be as a is a good place to start before we get into the characters. So this, as we've sort of hinted out already, this is a movie that is based on a play by Josafina Lopez. Her background, as she was born in Mexico and then immigrated to Los Angeles. A lot of her work surrounds that experience and sort of reflections of her experience. Um this play is very much a part of that. She started writing reading about her career. I never like gone down this wikipedia hole and she's like so fucking cool. She wrote her first play in high school. While the rest of us were doing God knows what, she was at work and she wrote a play called simply Maria, or the American dream. She then went on to write real women have curves. The play was very well regarded. It was very successful. It's my understanding is it's pretty close to what happens in the movie because she um co writes the screenplay and is apparently one of my favorite characters. I just learned, Um. But anyways, real women have curves is her biggest hit so far and people want to adapt it in one way or another. Originally, and I didn't know any of this before reading this kind of retrospective piece, so at the time it was going to be adapted for television by Norman Lear, who is, first of all, a hundred years old and still alive, which he got handed to him. But he had a reputation in Hollywood for being one of the only producers who championed diverse stories for television, and so most diverse families you saw on television in the seventies, eighties and nineties, into the two thousands, he's still working, were a result of his champion he is a white producer who was known for championing women stories and diverse stories. So he seemed to hostephina Lopez to be kind of a natural fit for getting this project adapted into television. However, he did. He did one day a time, right like the more recent adaptation. Yeah, yeah, and the first one was also him and he did. I'm trying to has like God, older TV is truly not my strength, but let me get let me get a few of his hits on the board. Sanford and son was his, one day at a time. The Jefferson's good times, Maud one of my favorite shows ever. Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman like he had, he did he could. He got stories on TV that no one else was trying to. So hosaphina Lopez was excited that he wanted to help adapt it, but even with the Norman learco sign they could not sell real women have curves as a TV series to net works. Network said it was not relatable, a story enough, which we know is absolutely porship, porship, but very typical of Hollywood TV. Yeah, to this day. So Josie Lopez is discouraged. She's like one of the biggest TV producers in the world. Can't get this produced. Who's going to there's a second wind with this project as a film script. So she meets a writer named George Levu, which is what a what a fun name, but I just like to say it. George Levue. She she meets Levu and, uh, they decide. They decide to Um, collaborate on a screenplay together, and finally they find an executive who wants to fund the project. And it's a I have a quote here. Um. So this project was funded by H E O, which I don't think I knew, not that it matters, I just didn't know it was an HBO movie. So josephina Lopez says this. I believe in in this retrospective, HBO's MoD Nadler had the power to say yes. It came down to a female executive saying women's stories matter, stories about mothers and daughters are important to me because I love my mother, and I remember asking Maud after we made the film why. She said yes, she said because I love my mother. It took a woman in a position of power to find value in the story, which is I thought, I don't know, that was like, that's really nice. And none of those men love their mothers. They all hate their mothers. I love my mother, not enough to fund a story of women. Let's not. Let's not look look women to a point very like us, the father of a daughter energy. Yes, uh. So the project gets funded. Uh. They Find Director Patricia Cardoso, who I believe is raised in Colombia. She signs on for the project. Lavoo and Lopez become the hottest writing team in Hollywood the movie. Oh Uh. And then another huge thing that happens is George Lopez signs on as a CO producer, which also was like a big hand and Um, getting this movie in front of people. It goes to Sundance and the rest is history. But it was a huge I mean I think we see this a lot of times in projects that are not centered around the white experience and the white male experience. Like it was a huge, uphill battle to get this project made. Even though it was already like a proven successful entity through the play right, and it really has aged so well. I was watching it this morning and, like the jokes land the right feels like still very like charming and fresh and it's just a fun watch and like nothing in that movie is standing out in a bad, cringe e way unless it's supposed to be. You know, it's just like so well written and you know it's like yeah, the work speaks for itself. It's funny and like it's just like, I don't know, this movie has so charming. Sorry, there's like a trash removal truck right outside my window making loud noises. My air conditioners on because it's eight million degrees. Sorry for all the noise my house and I smell fire. There's a lot going on. Okay, okay, let's go back to talking about the movie. That takes place in l a around like literally this exact time of year. Yeah, during a heatwave, in the summer, sweltering heat, oh my gosh. But Yeah, this movie does age so well and we've talked about there's like a span of time for movies and honestly it ranges for a quite a long time, but you know, if you're from a certain generation, especially the movies of like the late nineties, early two thousand's, like if that's when you're coming of age and those are like the movies and the media that you were like most exposed to, which is the case for me at least. That era was just such a crapshoot for for most media, because it was like just steeped in sexism, racism, homophobia, Transphobia, able is m like, you name it. Marginalized communities were punched down to in media. So it's just so refreshing to see a movie that's twenty years old, from the early two thousand's to be a movie that is like so, I mean feminist masterpiece. Number one has so many strong, impactful messages, the exact type of thing that like young people need to see to like be influenced in the right direction, because it has such strong themes and messaging about like body positivity, sex positivity. It showcases a complicated relationship between a mother and daughter, but one that's this very authentic and and familiar to a lot of people. So it's just like it's doing so much class commentary that there's something that honestly like didn't even didn't connect for me until I saw it like explicitly kind of said by the creators of the movie, because I didn't have my proper two thousand and two goggles on. I guess was just showing boil heights as the community that it is, versus how east L A and Latin people from l a were shown in media at this time. That, like this movie, had a huge hand in, you know, offering a counter to the really prejudiced, like overly simplistic narrative that was being shown in everything else. Um, which is like such a big part of Josafina Lopez's work. It's very wholesome, it is. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and like, yeah, just think about all the movies that you see that are like set in L A, about rich white people living in wealthy neighborhoods, living in huge houses. That basically just ignores huge swaths of the population of L A. Yeah, there's a huge Latin x community that is not often represented in movies here in L A and often not represented favorably, if it is represented at all. Yeah, I was just gonna say that real women have curves. Is Markedly youthful and feminine when compared to other L A chicano Mexican American films, like literally the other movies that we can compare it to in the same sort of genre or or cultural space, is like blood and blood out American me and then, you know, me Familia has more of a family dynamic at the beginning. But these films and then zoot suit, and these are all iconic films. zoot suit is a musical, you know, it's a piece of theater. But all of these films also have a lot of violence in them. There's a lot of trauma, there's prison and gangs and the ethos is very masculine and it's very much like a lot of men on screen and what they're going through in their lives. And then you have real women have curves with like I was on Hostafina Lopez on her website and reading about her, her like about me, which seems like she wrote it, which is awesome, and she's talking about how she started writing this play when she was eighteen, you know, and how like yeah, and how the sensibilities of an eighteen year old girl have everything to do with why the film is everything that it is and it's it's I think it feels so fresh because it is because like such a young person wrote it. And it feels very like like fresh too, because it doesn't look or feel like steeped in Super Trendy stuff of the time, like it doesn't really look like a two thousand's film, I guess, like it's not super stylized, like their wardrobe or their makeup or their hair or the music. You know, it's like, yeah, very wholesome and like a zoomer today who like goes thrift Ng might end up pulling some of the outfits so that America Ferrera is wearing in. Real women have curves, you know, like it just feels very like, yeah, it feels like young. I was thinking that so much of it has come back around. Oh yeah, absolutely. I have a quote from UH, Mr Levo himself, let's say his name, Um. But yeah, like speaking to you know, like drew attention to the fact like this is based on Josaphina's experience so much as told through the soft, warm, humorous tone of her experience. Hopefully that's what you're seeing when you see the city as different from the gangs and the grittiness of other films from this time. Jo Safina. Wanted to show the city as a vibrant place where women can have full lives and grow, and I feel like this movie pulls that off a million percent. Oh Yeah, yeah, I want to share a quote from the Director, Um Patricia Patricia Cardoso, says, quote. I wanted to show a part of Los Angeles we don't usually see in a beautiful way, not a seedy neighborhood filled with stereotypes of east l a. It was important to expand the concept of beauty for women, but also for the city and the neighborhoods. Unquote. So it's like in this vision from the director, from the writer, all comes through very clearly, in very satisfying ways. Um had one other behind the scenes thing I wanted to and I know this will will, this will come in and out for the rest of the episode, but I was happy that this article like as I was so curious of like the sequence of America Ferrera Lore So. I guess that she had already shot got to kick it up before she shot. Real women have curves and I just like, I love this story. It was like when she got her check from got to kick it up, she got a car and wanted to go to drama camp and like those are that's what she used her money for. As like she's so great, they wanted her to audition for this movie. She was like, well, I'm going to drama camp, so if you're still casting when I'm done at drama camp, like hit me up, basically and then and like listening to her talk about that in her thirties and she was like that was a bold move for a seventeen year old to do, but uh, fortunately, they still wanted me to be in the movie. So I live America fure so much. I was curious about like what scenes in this retrospective they would talk about, and there was a fair amount of discussion around, I feel like the scene that people remember best from this movie when they're in the factory at the end and they take their clothes off and they talk about their bodies and it's like this really celebratory, cool moment Um. So I guess America Farre was I said she was fifteen. I was wrong. She was seventeen when this movie was being shot, but still still, she was still a kid and I guess that on the day that this was being shot, she decided that she didn't want to take her pants off. So this was sort of this was hashed by a few people, I mean, and it seems like, you know, fifteen years later she's fine, everyone's relationship is fine. But at the time, so the scene had been blocked, they were ready to shoot it. I think prior to the scene being shot, America Frero said, okay, that's okay, I'll do that. But I just wanted to share a few quotes from her because kids acting is like such a such a Myer, and I she was uncomfortable during that scene. So she says. I was seventeen years old and it was only my second job. I never had to take off my clothes in front of a crew, most of them men. I'm sure it was incredibly intimidated by that. I remember wearing a robe between takes and as the day went on it was too much of a hassle to get the robe on and off, so I was like whatever, I'll stand here without the rope. But basically the crew tells this story about how she decided she wasn't comfortable taking her pants off and then I believe the director Um faked getting a phone call from an HBO executive. She was like you know well, you know this is a really important part of the script. We need you to do this, and America fare was like, I'm not comfortable with that, I don't want to do it anymore. And she's like, well, let me call HBO. The director goes outside fakes a call. So this is from George Lavu is recapping this. Okay. So, no, sorry, this is George lavue making the call. Lavu canceled out. Okay, George Levu harshed her in his narrative. I don't like him anymore. Yeah, not, it's always. It's always Lavu, though, isn't it? So lavo says I made an excuse. I said, let me call Colin Calendar, who was the head of Hbo Films at the time. I said, let me see what he wants. So I took my phone outside and I pretended to call Colin. I came back and said Colin said you have to do it, and she said okay, we'll do it. I didn't know what we were going to do. I couldn't imagine the movie without that scene. Hopefully they're happy it happened that way. Then Patricia Cardoso jumps on this train and says America was mad at me the whole day. It took two days to shoot that scene and she was so mad she wouldn't even look me in the eyes. The next day she came running to me and said, you know, now I understand why it was important for the character to take off her pants. Can we please shoot the scene again? I said no, you did it perfectly. America Ferrera now in her thirties. This is kind of put a pin on this discussion that I was like, I'm mad at them personally. But she says, I clearly see how this film empowered others to feel seen, liberated and beautiful, but I was a child playing everything, but a typical child. More than saying Oh, that's my body, people watched it and said, Oh, yes, that's how my mom responds to my body, that's how my culture responds to my body, that's how the world responds to my body. For me, being a young woman going through my own journey with my body, having seen and talked, having it seen and talked about and projected upon by people, watching this movie, if anything, sort of stunned me for a while, because that in and of itself sent a strong message about how I should feel about my body and it was a much longer journey for me to get to a place where I felt empowered about my body the way that film helped others feel. So, I mean it's levels, for sure. It's complex. I mean personally, I'm like okay. Production Wise, I don't think that that was a very that was a dishonest and irresponsible way to handle that, especially with someone who's an underage, who's a miner, right, right. I mean she's seventeen in this situation, and like that was the one production thing that I learned that didn't sit super well because it's like yeah, this like she's an incredible performer, she's, but it's I mean, a teenager talking about their body on screen is so I can't imagine how excruciatingly difficult that must have been. And so to have like pressure put on top of her like you have to do this, like that sucks. It's it's like this period of your life where, I R L teenagers are still wearing t shirts in the swimming pool and like not showing their bodies to anybody, like if they feel uncomfortable. And I think what's interesting too is like America Frera like in that quote. Nowhere is she saying that she didn't like her body or she felt fat or she felt not proud of her body or uncomfortable in her body. You know what I mean? It's like there's all these projections and it has so much to do with like, of course, it's literally the plot and it's the movie and it's the character and it's the storyline, so that's all baked in there. Like she's cast in this role because the main character, Anna is a Godrida, she's Chubby, so she's got to look the part, you know. And then I think about the fact that like all the levels right, because that script was written by somebody, Josafina, who probably experienced this exact same type of body shaming that goes on in our families. And then those actresses, being Latina's, probably have all experienced something similar in their own lives and I don't know that in their particular families or lives that just because we have this awareness in the script and in the movie that, you know, everybody is beautiful and that fat is beautiful, that those actresses, when they go home their families, are not necessarily board like that script is probably still there. You know, like that is still happening in the outside world, you know. So it's just I just think about the compounded levels of it all in a in a movie like this, right. Yeah, and you hear about stories where, like a scene like this is in the script and it calls for nudity, partial nudity, you know, people wearing underwear. I didn't feel like inappropriate or exploitative, but I also can totally understand why a seventeen year old actor, when the moment comes to take your clothes off in front of two people, no matter how safe you are, it's like that you can feel amazing about your body and be uncomfortable with that. Like that's so that's what I was gonna say. You hear stories about like some productions being like, okay, I know this is going to be a potentially very uncomfortable scene for the actors, so we're going to take a bunch of precautions to make it as comfortable as possible, and that ranges from like hiring Choreo, if it's like a sex scene, like a sex choreographer will basically be hired, or like there will be like social workers or other kind of like mental health professionals on set or like nearby to consult with if the actors need like to consult with somebody or talk to someone. There will be a reduced crew, where like normally the crew might be two hundred people, but on a shoot day like that you scale it way back. I've heard of Um like let's say the DP is a man, but they will like temporarily hire a woman. I mean they could have just hired a woman anyway, but they they did say that, like it wasn't actually two hundred people it was. That was like I think America Frere was like, Um, hyper hyper what is hyperbole? Hyperbolic? Yeah, I went to school, I swear uh so per Levu Um. There were like dividers up so that not every member of the crew had access to the shooting of this scene. So I don't have the number count, but but it was like America decided she didn't want to take off her pants in front of the crew and I guess she told her director that. She was like, Oh, I don't think that the character would actually do that or all this stuff, and it just I mean also, I don't envy the director's position and that situation either, because that's a really true especially on a on a like a lower budget movie. That's a really, really difficult position to be put in, for sure, but it could have been handled better. She's a kid. I wonder too, that scene. I wish that I could see it like how it was staged for the theater and for the stage, because I can imagine that, you know, obviously on camera you see a certain you can only see so much and things are kind of far away, you know, and I feel like on the stage and in the theater you're much up close and personal, and I can just imagine that the row of like the factory scenes and a row of sewing machines and the women's sewing and the sounds and the visual is probably very striking and dynamic on stage and I'm sure that when it gets to that part about them taking off their clothes and showing off their stretch marks and their cellulite, that that's very impactful on stage and very dynamic, you know, in a different way than in the movie. And like I wonder how it was handled even like for the stage and the taking off the clothes and the lead actress and and those pieces, because it's a scene that everybody loves. It's like a standout scene for everyone. I would love to see a stage production of this. I also didn't know that, I guess Hostephena Lopez opened a theater in boil heights. Yes, that's Gasa zero zero one. I want to say. Yeah, yeah, back in two thousand's on first street she has a restaurant, also called Gasa Fina, on First Street in Mariachi Plaza, and then so so and Mariachi Plaza is featured in the movie throughout like you see it, and Anna goes on her dates in Mariachi Plaza and she walks through Mariachi Plaza to catch for bus to high school. So right there on first she has her restaurant, Gasa Mama Casa Gasa, and then the theater down the street. That's so cool. Yeah, so that was all. That was all the behind the scenes stuff I had. Um. Well, yeah, so let's let's take a break and then we'll come back and discuss the story, the movie, the characters, et Cetera, and we're back. Okay, let's get into talking about the the actual what happens in the movie. I really liked Um. I know, I feel like every time we see public transportation in a movie, I get so excited. But I really like I feel like we've covered five trillion movies where it's like New York is end of the character rre or ray or ran, but this movie, I think like l a is on is like really strutting its stuff in this one. It is so beautiful and so like well done, and I love that you sort of navigate the city with public transit and I just really liked it. Yes, heart agree. That is again like something you don't see when you want, except for the iconic film speed. Have happened that the L A metroly not. But UH yeah, I mean there's there's so much this movie is doing as far as representation goes, as far as just like again, powerful messaging. You know, it's a predominantly Latin x cast Um. I love that Spanish is spoken frequently among the characters, because I feel like a lot of Hollywood executives would cite that is a thing like that will make this movie too inaccessible for a mainstream audience. But it's funny too, because you already had so many like, okay, like we had tons of star wars movies already at this time and they're speaking all kinds of different made up alien languages, like in those films. But Spanish is too much, that is too inaccessible right, like, oh no, a language that most people in the US speak to some degree. Can't have that. We like, not that. Meanwhile, elvish is making a huge comeback at this same time, alright, because Lord of the Rings Two towers comes out the same year. There you go. I feel like the movie sometimes I feel like a movie, like real women have curves, especially at this time. is almost like a crossover situation, even though it's Mexican Americans, like in L A, like her character ostensibly is like, you know, first or second generation like Mexican American. And part of why I love the bus conversation and the travel conversation is because there's this crossover that happens in L A. It's this east side West side crossover, and you see them. She's crossing the bridge via bus and via her dad's pickup truck to go from her east side neighborhood passed through downtown to work or to end up in Beverly Hills on the West Side for school or for the dad's job, and I think that's almost like the story of the movie. It's like born here on the east side, she she was taking meetings and she was on the west side Hostafina. I'm sure a lot trying to get this movie made and it's like a journey that I think like if you're in L A local like we joke about this, me and my co hosts, because we live. I live sort of in the mid city area, which is a little more Um West, but it's close to downtown and the USA lives sort of southeast and our community is sort of here, west of Librea and beyond, and we hear so many people, like transplant saying, oh l a like, I never go east of Librea, anything east of Libraa is the east side. Downtown is the east side, silver like is the east side. There's this disconnect in in what L A is. We've I've we've heard this so many times. So anytime that we have to go to the west side and leave our little enclaves, it's a thing, it's a journey. It's Oh we're going to the west side, you know. So I feel like Safina was going to the west side and in this movie they traveled to the West side it's like Iv. Yeah, for for listeners who do not understand truly the grand trek that Anna was taking to get to school every day, it's I was I was just trying to do the math in my head. I'm like that's at least an hour and a half if the bus comes on time, because she's like transfers. She like goes from like boil heights to Hollywood and vine from Hollywood and Vine Hills, like she's taking transfers, which is a yeah, that's the bus is here. Look pro but we could use some more routes. Could use some more routes, use some more frequency, because sometimes you're like why am I doing a Yo Yo act to get somewhere that is objectively three miles from where I'm sitting? Unclear, look right, but, but, but I loved that the movie took that time to show you that journey because it feels like it effortlessly communicates the class struggle that Anna is dealing with without having to like bop you over the head with it. It's just like an effortless part of the story. I love how it you're just told visually and also like when you see that kid Jimmy come to the east side and like, clearly it sounds like he's like one of the people you're talking about where it's it's he's like what? What? Like there's a part where he's like because she knows him from school and he goes to school in Beverly Hills, so you can presume that he probably lives in Beverly Hills as well, like shares little brother or something. Yes, he's Elijah Wood's son. Um, he's he's of the Wood family, for sure. Yes, summering with the wood family. He's like, I wanted to go to Europe with you. Things are just too easy here, you know, you're handed everything, you're handed school, you're handed a car. That's why I went to teach. And it's like, okay, you're saying this to Anna, who comes from a working class, blue collar family where most of her family works in a clothing factory where their labor is for sure being exploited because they're assembling dresses for eighteen dollars to be assauled at the Bloomingdale's that his family probably shops at. Like and Anna takes the bus. She's like, what are you talking about? I take the bus. And he's like we have buses here. Like what I love about that scene is like Anna doesn't say any of that. You know, she just like listens to him and she's like okay, sure, Jimmy. You know, she doesn't have to. It's so fascinating to me she doesn't. She doesn't feel compelled to tell him he's wrong or that he has it easy or that her life is so hard. or well, here's what she's she's on the bus, she doesn't have a car. It's not easy for her, and I always find those choices really fascinating of like how much Anna is like sharing with him or not. You know, Um, because I think that in in and that sex scene that they have where he's like I'll write you, I'll call you, and she's very kind of cold and says no, like for what she knows, like this guy is for for the now, but this is not he's not my future and he doesn't need to know all of me, and I think that's so interesting. Yeah, and that's just like that's just like fe so real to and just it just shows how she is a very like multidimensional, complex character where, you know, she has no qualms about challenging her mom challenging her sister, you know, challenging Mrs Glass, the owner of the clothing manufacturer, like, but she isn't quite so challenging to some of the things that Jimmy says, because he says something like uh, and you know, we'll talk all about like the body and fat shaming that she experiences, but he says something like you're not fat, you're beautiful, as if those two things are mutually exclusive. Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, and she doesn't challenge that. But it's just a much more different dynamic that she has with this kid she's like rich white kid she's just getting to know, versus her mom, who she's lived her entire life with. And that just felt, like said, you know, we all kind of switch our behavior and you know, based on who we're interacting with, and and so that just felt very familiar relatable. Yeah, it's just such a cool character where every time, I don't know, like you can see, even in that scene with Jimmy, I really like when she was like we're not gonna have anything to talk about in three months, like don't bother, like that was so cool. And then but in the scene right after you do see that like there is some insecurity attached to her setting that boundary in that way where she's like, well, you're gonna have some like skinny white girlfriend in a couple of months anyway. So, like, why would I the subject feeling like why would I emotionally invest in a Jimmy of the world? And here's my question. Jimmy says that he's got into Teachers College, which leads me to believe he's enrolling at Columbia University. She gets into Columbia University, she ends up in New York. Is there a real women have curves, sequel, where she wears the red dress in New York and they reunite somehow? Is that why they're loose ends? Well, this is becoming a what? Oh my gosh, it's becoming a to all the boys I love before style saga. Yes, the whole thing. I have to wonder. It's not too late? Yes, it's twenty years later, but you know, I'm still waiting for that red dress payoff, I'll be honest. The other thing that I thought was interesting, as it relates to the kind of class commentary, is Mrs Glass. So again, she's the owner of the dress manufacturing company that Estella is a contractor of, and there's that scene where stella she's like first trying to write an email to her, and Anna is like, you gotta go down and talk to her. You're never going to get anywhere with an email. So Anna goes with her, you know, ends up like advocating pretty hard for more than Estella camp, but it's also like, you know, more is at stake for Estella, so you don't you know, you get why she's a bit intimidated by Mrs Glass Um, but there's that moment where Mrs Glass is like, you know, I believe a woman like me should help a woman like you, but I can only help you so much, and basically tells her she has to pick herself up by her bootstraps because she, despite also being like a Latina woman who, you know, like saw something in Ostella and like that's why she wanted to help her out, but she's also a capitalist who is for sure exploiting Estella's labor. You hate to see it, but that ship also does happen. It does happen. Yeah, I find the Mrs Glass character so fascinating because that character can be open to so many interpretations, like we can create so many storylines behind her life. Is this like an Argentinean Latin out with the last named glass, like is she like a third gen like Mexican American who like went to like Harvard Business School? Like, who is this woman and how did why is she the way that she is, you know, and I love the tension there too with like you have Anna, who like went to Beverly Hills High School and his college bound and is very kind of Um. She feels like she knows a lot of things right, and I feel like there's a lot of like power trips in this movie about what we know and what we don't know. So I think Anna feels like among her family she knows more things than like her mom, and her mom feels like, well, a woman knows and a mother knows, and that's her favorite saying, you know, because she's a mom, so she knows and she's a married woman, so she knows. And Anna went to Beverly Hills high so she knows, you know. And so Anna thinks, Anna thinks that she's about to help her sister out and like negotiate with this business lady. But Anna is weighing over her head and this lady is way out of her league and Anna is actually doing more harm than good and she thinks she's helping, you know. And so it's like maybe there's a reason Estella has been kind of moving the way she's been moving, because maybe Estella knows something that Anna doesn't know, and I love all of that. That kind of merry go round. I don't think in my I think I got I was so caught up in the Anna of it all in my earlier viewings, because it's like that is especially if you're like a teen girl. You're plugging yourself into Anna, like end of story. I didn't think as much as I probably should have about Estella's character and I'm prepping for this episode I was like kind of blown away by how much there is in Estella's character, even though, like, I mean, she's a main character, but she doesn't like actually speak that much. She doesn't take a ton of like action, action or because it's so honest story and the relationship between Anna and her mother is so focused on. But I really love Estella and I don't think I like had the tools to understand what she was up against when I first saw this movie because Anna is so headstrong and like she's back on everything and in a way that it's like really Cathartic and cool to see. And and I think in my mind at the time I'm like, well, why doesn't Estella stand up for herself more and like not understanding there the dynamic there where, even watching like how it's like it's clear that ten years prior Estella was treated the way Anna is being treated now by her mother, which is, I feel, like represented in that scene where their mom basically says, like well, it's too late for Estella. I'm going to focus on Anna, and it seems like Estella has put so much energy and and like her life into pleasing her mom and doing what she thinks is the right thing and trying to like meet the bar that their mom is setting that no one can ever actually reach, and then, ten years later, be blamed for it and she's still not the mom's favorite right and then like ten years later she's still catching ship for it and her mom has given up on her for no reason, even though Estella seems like she like is I mean, I don't know enough about how a textile factory is run to say this for sure, but it seems like Estella is kind of like doing the bulk of the day today Um stuff. She's handling all the rent issues and the and the checks and like a lot of the high level stuff, but is like not appreciated by the powers that be, certainly, but also doesn't seem it seems like she's really undervalued by her own mom and just like seeing how that because that does, I don't know, like being Estella's age and not Anna's. Now you're like that does wear on you. And of course there's just like Anna has the energy to fight every battle and it's like, but that changes over time and I just love Estella and with the Stellash I feel like a Stella's underrated too, because if I knew somebody who had their own dress manufacturing business and was selling gowns to blooming als, like was filling orders constantly, that's a big fucking deal, like that's an accomplished seamstress designer, like businesswoman, like that's nothing to sneeze at. She's being exploited. It is literally a sweatshop setting, but it's impressive when we really break it down and think about what it's what she's doing there, and I don't think that annesty is that. It's literally Phantom threading, like it's also it's like further complicated by so you can kind of imagine that Stella took up this business because that's what her mom did. Like Carmen says that she has been sewing for thirty eight years and she started when she was like thirteen. So, like you have, Stella like taking in her mom, you know, like taking after her unless expression take something footsteps, following, following others footsteps. I was like, why can't I put this sentence to age? It's so she's following in her mom's footsteps, possibly to impress her mom, possibly because that's the skill her mom taught her. You know, there's could be any number of of reasons. and Um I was able to open up her own factory, Um, which I think maybe it seems to be implied that like that's something that Carmen didn't have the opportunity or the money that you need to start your own business, but it's something that Estella was able to do, and so she started her own business and now she employs her mom, so she's her mom's boss and then her mom mentions how, from decades of sewing, she's she's become arthritic, she can't see very well and she's like not actually able to work very well because, like this hard labor has has really worn on her over the years. But she's ashamed by that and is not really communicating that too love. But she tells it to Anna and it's just like there's like so many such an interesting and complicated family dynamic. Yeah, there's a lot of layers and it's like you you have this situation where, like the mother and the sister have dignity in their work, even though it's not ideal, because that is such a step. Like she's a business owner, she is doing deals with blooming Dale's and they're they have this team, they're employing people. Right. There's this scene where Carmen and Anna's father they're talking to each other and the father is saying she can learn a lot at Columbia, like she's accepted, she got a scholarship, she can go get educated, and her mother says, I can educate her, I can teach her how to sew, I can teach her how to take care of children, I can teach her how to keep a house she doesn't do laundry. She's my greatest disappointment, you know, she doesn't listen to me. And you know, it's interesting because I think there's a piece there where like the mom and the sister are like, we like our lives and we are doing work and we are supporting ourselves and this is a dignified life that's also worth living, you know. And so there's this like divide there where she's very young and and she's pushing back on it and she's Pooh pooing it, but it's what's allowed also allowed her to go to Beverly Hills High School, you know, and she's had that familial support. So there's that push and pull there. Were like in their heart of hearts, they want more for her, but they know that, like this is their world and for her to step out of it, what does that mean about their world and them and all of that? I mean it's like and and I get like that whole message is conveyed in like a single scene which is wild, like the scene when Mr Guzman comes back to the house, and I did I know that this is like she's wrong for this, but it did always make me laugh every time. Um, carbon saw Mr Guzman coming and is like who is that? Let's get him out of here, like slamming the door, and George Lopez's face. Man, yeah, man, you're like that's that's her teacher. But but yeah, like that that whole class tension of like, and I feel like you see it a little bit in Estella's character as well, where it's it's not like Mr Guzman is trying to say like one thing is more valuable than the other, but I think like his perspective is like, well, you sent her to this like Bougie high school. Do you want her to have access to what the Bougie high school was supposed to have gotten her access to? And then, from where Carmen and Ostella are sitting and from where the whole family sitting, it makes total sense to be like well, why are you telling us that the life that we have isn't enough? Like it feels like Anna is the only person in the room at any given time who understands that Um and like understands both sides of it, and we don't. I guess we don't know enough about Mr Kos months background. Maybe he does understand this tension and his power is just kind of very limited in this situation, because you're totally right, Mala, like it's so wild the way that Estella is treated and like the circumstances she has to work under, because she's also I liked that you have that details. She's a brilliant designer and like I hope that you know in the inevitable, uh, you know, real women have curves. To return of the red dress. Um, she has extremely curvy movie. Yeah, she has like her own like fashion house or like something like that, where, like she's so talented, but it's like it's got a I g boutique right exactly excited, is like doing expensive custom red carpet looks for America, Ferraro question mark. Um, but and then the movie explodes. Um, but, but I I that it was interesting. How like there's those moments with a Stella, the moments I liked most between Anna and Ostella, or when Estella, I think, would sometimes internalize how various systems were failing her and her business as individual failures, which is, you know, how the systems want you to feel. And I feel like you know, even though the Mrs Glass thing did not pan out and was that was kind of naive on on his part to think you could just march in and change a girl boss's mind. Um. But, like Estella, it seemed like I had internalized a lot of shame about it and like she wasn't able to talk to people about it. And you would imagine if she went to Carmen about it, Carmen would give her shit about it because that is very inherent to how Carmen treats her daughters. And just like watching Estella, this like brilliant business owner who should be, you know, in Milan or what I or like having to internalize this bullshit is it's I don't know, it's like pretty subtle in the way that it's like telegraphed in the movie, but I just I don't know, it just felt like this whole other element to what's going on in her life that I didn't take a lot of note on because I was America for he built and just didn't understand the world as well. And yet there's still so much to love about on this character to where like so we've been kind of dancing around the mother daughter relationship throughout the entire discussion. So so let's just get into it. It's a complicated relationship. It's clear that Carmen very much loves and cares for her daughter and is coming from a place where she thinks what she's doing, what she's saying, is what's best for her daughter. She's not really doing anything out of like spite or malice. It's just this is what she knows and she's trying to pat sit along to her daughter and it's what she thinks is best for Anna. This often manifests as carmen policing Anna's body in two pretty major ways. One is her size and the other is her sexuality, and this is obviously informed by Karmen's religious beliefs and her kind of cultural like. You know, yes, she is reinforcing a lot of patriarchal standards that were pretty par for the course for her generation her culture. Anna is from a younger, more progressive generation. She grew up in a different country and culture from her parents and this has kind of empowered her to push back against like her mom's ideology, because we constantly see that kind of tug of war of Carmen either fat shaming or Slat Shaming Anna and then an a challenging it. So again we have like harmon constantly making comments about on a weight her size. She says things like you know, you would look beautiful if you lost weight, and constant comments about her body. And then you have Anna again, constantly challenging this and pushing back and saying things like well, I happen to like myself and yeah, maybe I do want to lose weight, but part of me doesn't, because my weight says to everybody fuck you, and she says, you know, how dare anybody try to tell me what I should look like or what I should be when there's so much more to me than just my weight. And that's such a wonderful thing to be in a movie that is targeted to. I mean everyone should watch this movie, but it's like targeted to probably a younger audience. Um, you know, teens, tweens. So you have like this young character who's like advocating for herself and pushing back against this harmful ideology of fat shaming and body I've been watching dance moms and Abby Lee Miller has sort of helped me to better understand Carmen's character. Because, yes, because Abby Lee is known for her harsh words and teaching tactics with her students, but her students also win, like they sweep right, and so Abbe Lee. One of her competitions was like listen, I tell you the harsh truth and rehearsal, because I don't want to put you on a stage and parents and other coaches are saying nasty things about your technique and your unppointed feet in the audience and you're getting dinged. I'm saying it so you fix it and other people are not saying it and humiliating you. And I feel like there are some older women, and I know for a fact Latina mothers, because my mother kind of is of this sort of mindset sometimes, like I'm your mother and if I don't tell you, who's going to tell you? and I feel like Carmen has this sort of very like she likes to tell cautionary tales, like if you don't listen to your mother, this is what's going to happen to you. I'm telling you because I'm your mother. Like there's that one scene where they're watching that Novella, and I love this title, Los B Mass, and the girl like it, doesn't listen to her mom and gets decapitated in the process trying to run off with some guy and Karmen is like that's that's what happens. That's what happens when you don't listen to your mother. A mother knows the right man for her daughter, you know. So it's like, for me, that's who karmen is. People like poor Anna's trying to write her college essay at the table. She's like stop. The decapitation comes up like mid essay writing. Yeah, oh, that's perfect. And then there's also this Um, this undercurrent throughout the movie that these women in the factory are making dresses that they can't fit into because glamorous clothing is often not manufactured for larger bodies. Because Have Puncha saying talking about address that Estella is designing, and she says something like yeah, I would definitely wear that if it would fit me parentheses. It wouldn't. Or like you, I couldn't probably find a dress that would fit me like this. But that's why in real women have curves to a Stella is the most famous inclusive designer in the entire worldly. She's stiling Lizzo. Yes, yeah, the script rights itself. Honestly, yeah, we don't. We don't need Lavoo. This time to get him out of there. Yeah, La Boo more like it, more like lapoo. And then that's really sweet scene where you see a stella giving the dress that she made for Anna and she says like I cut this specifically for your body and says like pretty dresses aren't just for skinny girls, and it's just such a beautiful little like button on that through line of the movie. The dresses are such a double, a triple whammy, because it's like it costs these women money to make these dresses. Practically like not only can they not fit in the dresses they're making, but they can't afford the dresses they're making because they cost six hundred dollars. And the constant throughout the film is I don't think we ever see the women really get paid, you know, until the very end they reimburse the dad because of the loan. The landlord is coming because she's laid on rent. Like the dress is actually even just to work is like costing them and it's wild to see. It made me so sad, like and it made me I felt like a moment of like frustration with Estella. I was like, but then it's like, but she's being put into an impossible position. It's just and and I feel like it's the movie, I guess, in that moment did kind of telegraph clearly why Estella feel like this is all her fault, because she's the one that has to tell her employees, I can't pay you, even though you're doing really, really hard work, like all the time, and I won't turn a fan on because of dust, like it's of course she feels terrible, but it's like, but yeah, I don't know that this viewing I was Estella pilled this one Um. And the thing about the movie too, is like that. There's so much, so many questions, because Anna goes off to New York, she's treating her stuff, but remember, like Estella stayed behind because she had to go to the factory. Like the factory continues. The dead is still there, like the turnover. That's all still, that's still going on while Anna is in New York. Right at least Estella gets her own bedroom now, because they were sharing a bedroom. That she deserves. She deserves. Yeah, she doesn't. I mean she serves her own place. We could like I wanted to get back to mom a little bit as well, because I really do think it's like it's such a tricky role. I feel like it is such a testament to loupe onto veros for making Carmen a lovable character and like, because I feel like on paper it's tough. The things she says to her daughters can be so cutting and awful, and the fact that she is able to get across like I do believe that she loves her daughters, but there's all these layers of and I know that there's there's so many Oh, there's another fire Um. Oh, I know there's so many layers of what Carmen is kind of projecting onto her daughters. It's a lot of cultural values that she grew up with. It's a generational value, it's uh, it's internalized shame being projected back onto her kids, and there was an element of it, the closest I could get to like relating to outside like just being a body shamed by female relatives, which happened in my family brutally and all the time. But it almost felt like there is like this part of Carmen that wants her daughters to suffer in the same exact ways she did and like to not suffer in though it almost reminds me of like whence like with this whole student loan forgiveness debate, where people are like, well, I had to be an extreme debt for twenty years, so my kids should too, and it's like no, that doesn't I don't know what, but but on a human level you can understand how. You know she, I mean Carmen, has had to deal with ship her entire life and she was raised a very particular way and you understand how she got to where she is in the way she views the world and also be like, but you have to let your daughters. You know, you've got to want more for your kids. You've got to want them to be able to go their own way, and it's such a difficult relationship to see play out because you you, I don't know. You feel so much for everybody, but sometimes you just want to be like Carmen. Come on, yeah, there's there's a piece to where it's like Carmen, she is harsh and she can be mean. There's this really interesting layer there, though, where it's like sometimes, like Mexican families do speak that way to each other and it can come off as harsh and mean, but it's not unbelievable and it's not unrealistic. And I feel like sometimes like Oh, it's almost like you actually can't body shame like a Latina, because our families have already been doing it for years, like we've been hearing this stuff for our lives, like people speak about our bodies in very public and specific terms, like your body part isn't just the body part. It becomes like a stand in for your whole identity, like we have words just to refer to you in relation to a body part. Like if you have a big butt, you don't just have a big butt, you are a Nalgona, like that can be your nickname. Like if you have big cheat cheese, you can be a Cheechon, like that's your nickname, that's your title. You Know Gorrita, she calls her throughout. This is and I love the caption, the translation, because she goes, this is my Gorta right here, and it's this is my fatty right here, right my butterball, butter ball also in the captions. But these are actual terms that people actually call girls and women, like I R L and so is it uncomfortable? Yeah. Are they sometimes terms of endearment? Yeah, are they sometimes kind of cute. See Names. Yeah, but can they also be used like to cut? Also? Yes. So there's also like that sort of like very subtle like line that I love. That whole Stefin know plays with with her writing. Yeah, and it works so well. And then again, the other thing that common tends to do with on a mostly well part. So it's like Carmen has this idea that, you know, a woman has to save herself, quote unquote, till marriage. She can't have sex until she's married, and it's also her duty to get married and start raising a family and to take care of that family and to take care of her husband. And she wants Anna to get married as soon as possible. And you know, she has that little the figurine of of San. I forget which sat anth St Anthony. So you know she's holding out. She's like and she's like I've I've lost hope that Estella will get married. But now, so now I have to really focus on this future for Anna. So that's kind of where she's coming from as far as like Anna's like sexuality and like her expectations of what Anna is going to do with like starting a family and that kind of stuff. Anna does not buy into this. She's just like, I'm gonna like start dating this kid, Jimmy, for the summer. She wants to have sex with him. She tells him, you know, I feel ready. She has sex on her terms, which I think is an amazing thing to show on screen of like, you know, a young woman feeling ready to have sex for the first time, and the condom scene that she buys a condom. Everything is on her terms. You know, she gives consent like this. This is all like I loved it to see on screen that actual sex scene when, you know she's like she turns the lights back on. She's like, I want you to see my body, this is what I look like. That whole thing, I felt, was handled so beautifully, and I don't think it's like an act of protest against her mom's ideology, but it's just like what she wants to do and it's like what she's doing, despite it, not wanting what her mother wants for her. And Anna Pushes back on this and says, why is a woman's virginity the only thing that matters? A woman has thoughts, ideas, a mind of her own, and so annas like constantly advocating for like I'm more than my weight, I'm more than my size, I'm more than my virginity, you know, and it's just like feminist icon. Eighteen year old ANA and America for air, like performs the hell out of those speeches. I like it's so good. Yeah, I I really, and I liked that. I feel like a lesser movie, I don't know, like this is such a case study for like women like writing and directing stories about women, especially with the amount of specificity that Josephina Lothpez does. Like it just works, like it's amazing, and I feel like a lesser story would have because I was just like, okay, other teen movie analogs, you see that, like in a lesser movie and a Lesser Story, Anna would have been like, Oh, this boy thinks I'm beautiful, so I'm in love with him now and like all this stuff. But she like is very in charge of her sexuality. She's I loved it. They went out of the way to be like and she made sure that she was safe. She protected herself, because who knows what's going on with this kid Jimmy, but also doesn't know how condoms work, which is very true of seventeen year old um and that when she was done, she was like, you know, I I don't want this to be a relationship. I feel like teen movies so often put young women in the situation of like the first boy that is nice to me or finds me attractive or like, sees me for who I like, the whatever, walking down the stairs moment. What's that movie that I used all that? Yes, like the first the first boy that sees me for who I really am, is the love of my life and Blah, blah, blah. And an is like, I live in the real world. I don't want to keep seeing you, and like it's just such a that happens nowhere. Like it was just so cool to see her take charge of everything. Yeah, I love, too, that the movie manages to be very dramatic, hilarious, hilarious but also very dramatic, and nothing that dramatic happens plot wise, like she graduates high school, dates a boy and goes to college, you know, like and like works, like it feels so cinematic them, you know, very wholesome, but there's it's so cinematic, and that's for me, is the you know, she doesn't get pregnant, she doesn't go to jail, no one dies of an overdose, like, there's no stabbings, like, but drama, and that's the brilliance of the movie and the writing, like that's the storytelling, because you're captivated and you're like feeling feelings and going through it with her, and I feel like that is the drama of Teen Angst. That's how heightened it can be. She's just being a teen girl, going the fuck through it and clashing with her mom and you, like the movie doesn't take any shortcuts when it comes to like this is a dramatic story, so someone has to die, you know, like it's just like life is dramatic, yeah, and Hilarious, and the movie balances both very well. It's so good. Yeah, it's well, you said it perfectly where you're like yeah, like teen girl life is everything feels like a movie. Everything Teen Angst, angst, and so this is, I think, just in that vein. Yeah, teen girls, you know, struggle or in the trend there in the trench. Truly, if you're a teen girl listening, I salute you. It does get better. Eventually. You will eventually. Eventually it's hold on, and another thing I feel like I just was so impressed and like blown away by the writing of like there's no character, however small, that you don't have some level of investment in, because the script goes out of its way to like, you know at least something about women who works with Estella, like you get to know them over the course of the movie even like, and I think again, in like a less thoughtfully written movie, it would just be like background, seems stress number four, but that role like doesn't exist. You learn everyone's name, you learn a little bit about them or at least get a taste of their personality, and I feel like that just makes the payoff of this like it could have been a like I am spartacus moment where you're like this is kind of cool, but who are these people? But it's like you know who, who these women are, and you have already have gotten to know like a little bit of their history and their relationship with their coworkers throughout the movie, and so it feels like, Oh, I'm in a room full of women whose lives I know something about and now they're finally comfortable talking about their their bodies and their insecurities and they're like everything and it just felt so yeah, like the attention to detail is is so awesome. Absolutely. What else? What else we got going on? Sorry, I feel like I just blacked out for a second because I inhaled a yeah, I want to share one last quote from the creator of this property, Cosavina Lopez. So the play seems to be a bit more focused on the on a character being undocumented for some portion of her life and the anxiety about being undocumented and being deported, and that is a focus on the play that is eliminated from the movie. So this quote, this quote is a little bit about Savina talking about being undocumented, just to put that into context. But HOSTAFNA says, quote, I was undocumented for thirteen years. I wanted to write a play to affirm my humanity because I felt so dehumanized being undocumented. I've always had issues with my weight and one of my teachers told me, not in a mean way, she thought I was a great actress, that I had the ability to play Juliette and Lady Macbeth, but no one was going to cast me as the Angeneue if I didn't lose weight, because only thing girls get the lead. Men write roles and direct the movies. So I had to adhere to those standards. Otherwise I'd always play the side character. I thought, okay, if I lose the weight, that I'm going to be told by casting people that I should change my name to a white name change my hair color. If I do this, I'm going to have to give up who I am to be an actress. I refused to do that. The problem isn't that I'm undocumented, Mexican, working class or overweight. The problem is society. Unquote. She said that sentiment feels like it. It comes through in this movie very well and that that's the core of what so much of this movie is about and it's just such a positive thing for that to be out in the world. Hell yeah, that's such a nice school. She's so cool. The last thing I had. This is not a criticism, it was just something that I is something we've talked about on the show before and so I wanted to sort of see what y'all felt about it. I really love that this movie puts mother daughter Relationships Front and center and gives them precedents. We get a few scenes with their father, who seems to be a very nice, affable, kind of Guy, real nice guy, right, but as is their grandfather. I just feel like, I don't know, I mean, I I don't I don't even think that I would want anything to be changed. I just think that there are moments in movies that center around mothers and daughtered where it's like the Dadd is always like the quote unquote, Nicer Guy. It just felt like a little I was like, okay, so mean they're scary, like we're getting we're getting into scary territory with mean dad. Right. So it's like all all the kind of baggage is rolled into Carmen and it just like, I don't know, I mean, I didn't really feel strongly about it. I just always feel like I noticed when there's a lot of movies where it's like the dad is, quote unquote, the Nice Parent. Yeah, I would say that, yes, and that that certainly is a trope that we've discussed to a large extent on the show, but I think it all depends on how the movie approaches it and how the movie actually handles it. In this movie it didn't feel tropy. It didn't feel like it was leaning into stereotypes about uh, a mom being right. What is the word I'm searching for. But she's like so I mean Carmen is so like contextualized and well written and like you understand, yeah, why she reacts the way she does. Right, there's there's all these shows, like there's like I think of like the mom on like Malcolm in the middle. Then there's like, UM, everybody loves Raymond, the White Debrah, and I love all these characters, all these women. What's the other one? But there's a bunch right, like where like the MOM is, Oh, my wife and kids, the dad is like funny goofball, and then the mom's kind of, kind of a bit, kind of strict, always yelling, high strung, like he's always doing stupid things to stress her out. And I feel like in this film, like Carmen is like an Antihero. We can't stand her and she sometimes because of the things she says, but we still love her. And I also feel like I love that on US character is allowed to be kind of a brat, like Carmen's kind of a bitch and on us kind of a Brat. And as much as they insist that they are different, the more we see their similarities, and I feel like it's so interesting the way she pits them against each other, but it's like we're learning more about each one of them because they're the same person. You know. It is like another thing where it's like I want to see. Yeah, I feel like we're making a strong case for a sequel. I want to see what this relationship between them looks like twenty years down the line, like, because I do understand like there her parents. I mean there's so much anxiety around Anna leaving to go to college, especially across the country, and like I feel like there's a subtext like she's gonna Change, she's gonna like not be the girl that we raise and like she'll lose touch with who she is if she leaves, and I would love to see that relationship examined twenty years down. My last observation is so there is another movie about like a young woman who has just graduated from high school, who lives in California and has a difficult relationship with her mother. She dates a boy and has sex for the first time and then she goes off to college across the country. I also think in New York City, and that movie is Ladybird. There's a lot of parallels here and Ladybird is kind of a Brat. Yeah, and like a lot of body stuff with the mom as well body stuff. You know, there's class commentary in that movie as well. Very similar movies. I would say if you like Ladybird, for sure check out real women have curves, if you haven't seen it. I think the real women occurs does it better. I find it to be a more fifteen years earlier. Yeah, exactly, I didn't make that connection. Yeah, totally. So. Yeah, if you liked Ladybird, definitely check out real women have curves, if you haven't seen it. Sorry, I got caught up in my own horrible Lady Bird joke, which is, instead of that boy Jimmy, Ladybird has that boy timmy. To Me Shalomay, yes, to me shallowmy most hilarious joke of all time, ha ha, and on that. No, there's actually no good way to transition this, but I mean talking about Timothy Shalomy, I do think passes the Bechtel test, if that's where you're going. I don't know. What is he like, you know, like this, can we even a good question? You really vouch for him? I feel like it's still kind of a mystery. It eludes me. But you know, it doesn't elude me whether this movie passes the Bechtel test or not. Yes, we did it. This movie super passes the Bechtel Test. It's barely even worth discussing because it passes between almost any pairing of characters that aren't men. I like we discussed before Um, this movie does takes a lot of care to give every character in the movie, particularly the women, a name and some information about them. So really any interaction happening at the factory that isn't explicitly about marriage passes the Betel test. They're talking about their bodies, they're talking about school, they're talking about work, they're talking about deadlines, they're talking about taxes, they're talking about they're just, you know, dare say it, being full on people and characters the whole damn movie. Yap, and as we also Um touched on in the episode, this movie is has just so much focus on the female characters and the relationships between female characters. And while there are, you know, there's a dad, there's the GRANDPA, there's a couple male cousins, those characters are like pretty secondary or tertiary and it's really so much of a focus on the women and their relationships. So still depicted up with love. It's not like they're like left by the boys up, but like, but, you know, like, but yes, it is. It is a women's movie and, Um, you know, women that we don't usually get focused on, women who are working class, women who are immigrants, women who are people of Color and Latin x specifically. So it's just this movie is doing so much that no other movie of its time is doing, and still most movies now we're not doing so. With that in mind, another per grade transition, and do you mean the Nipple scale? Yes, the only perfect metric, and it is, of course, a scale of zero to five Nipples, based on examining the movie through an Intersectional Feminist Lens. So, you know, given all possible factors, to consider every potential factor one might consider, Um, with regards to this movie and this rating, I would give it a four. Hell Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, I would go like four, four and a half. It's I was really happy to see, like, especially, I mean just the fact that, like, women wrote and directed and produced this and, like, most of them are women of color. Like that, I feel like. I mean, yeah, still unheard of now and it's still and it's a classic, like you can't. It's I feel like real women have curves kind of yet to be topped, except by real women have curves to coming out next year, yes, pending. And then we also, Um, you know, bequeath you the power to gift your four Nipples to any character person, actor, production person of your choice. Um, you can distribute in pairs or not, you know, like kind of uh, get creative with it. Oh, this is so difficult because I want to give to each to just America and Loupe, you know, just split them up half and half, but I also want to give Hostafina to but I have four. You know what? I'M gonna give loop anti vettos too, because she passed away R I p. I'm gonna give Lopez to because she wrote it, she's an icon, and I'm gonna give a go for one because she's the youngest and I think it's still working on icon status. That's how we'll do it. I think that that was very judicious of you. That was very diplo about it. Thank you. I'M gonna go forward a half and I'm gonna docket the half nipple just for making America, for her, uncomfortable when she was seventeen. She is a living legend and a child and I'm, you know, gonna, I'm gonna put that one on Lavo. No nipples for Lavu from me. Zero. But outside of that, I think this movie is so fucking awesome and it, I mean it was doing so many things no other movies we're doing. Josephina Lopez is an incredible writer and I just love every element of this movie. And I'm now and Estella stand for life. So I'll give one nipple to anna, one to Estella. I'll give the half to carmen because she's doing her best and I have, I have loved for her, but leave Anna and Asti alone. Um, I'll give one to Poncha. I loved Poncha. I feel like super underrated character and I will give one too. I should give one to Hostephina Lopez, but I'm going to give it to Hostafina Lopez, playing the manager of the Burger joint because, Um, that is acting, scene steeler, scene steeler. Exactly, where was Major Oscar snub that year? Oh, and then the last thing I wanted to say was I guess as of last year. There's a musical being written around this. So hopefully people are listening to this episode from the future and just saw real women have curves on Broadway. I feel like this would be such a good musical. Hell, yeah, I love musicals, Um, and I love musical adaptations that aren't already Disney movies, so this seems like something I would love. Caitlyn, what is your writing for this Flim? This flim gets I would say four and a half. I was going to give it a five before I knew about the the sketchy things that were happening, especially in that one in that one particular scene where America Ferrera expressed discomfort and then they deceived her with like Yucky but Um, aside from that, this is such a wonderful movie. Again, a focus on women, women's stories, women's relationships, positive Latin x representation that we so rarely see in cinema, especially in in this era, messages of body positivity, of sex positivity, a focus on a working class family in Los Angeles, a side of Los Angeles that we don't tend to see or that tends to be Um demonized in most media. Multigenerational, which I feel like we haven't like explicitly, like there's just there's so much and so much is accomplished so effortlessly, so effortleless. Oh my gosh, I'm so bad at that word, like everyone has those words. It takes a lot of effort for me to say effortlessly. There we go. Um, so much is accomplished in a movie that is less than an hour and a half, which we were texting about. Every movie should be less than an hour and a half long. If this movie can do what it does in an hour and a half, what's your excuse? I was about to say something flippant annoying. And what's your excuse? Titanic. Okay, now that's straight up. One exception. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm so sorry. Everyone. Who are you giving your nipples to? Um, I'm going to give my nipples to one to America Ferrera, one to Lupe Anti Veros, one to Ingrid, oh, you who plays a stella. I'll give one to the women who work in the clothing factory and then my half nipple I will give to Los Angeles public transportation, because it's called the metro pre as owner, but it is public transportation. It is, and I do take it sometimes brave occasional redline user. Wow, I love to bully people who don't use enough public transportation. But that said, you drove me to the beach yesterday, so it makes you think it does. It does indeed. Right. So, Um, that is real. Women have curves. Mala, thank you so much for being here. And, uh yeah, where can we find you online? Plug away. Yes, so I'm on all social platforms at Mala, underscore, Monos, M U N O Z is the last name, and you can listen to I have two podcasts out. One is called Look Radio, which is, uh, the flagship podcast that I co host with my co producer Diosa, and then my solo show, might one, a podcast for pod heads, and we're on apple, apple podcast, spotify, all the usual places. Hell yeah, also your stand up sucking rules. Thank you so much. Yes, and then you can follow us on twitter and Instagram at Bechtel cast. You can subscribe to our matreon at Patreon dot com slash becketel cast, which gives you two bonus episodes every month, along with access to the back catalog of over one hundred bonus episodes. And that is all for five dollars a month. Oh, can you imagine? Can you imagine? Nearly it's actually sometimes I do reflect on the value and just I'm like, wow, what a deal, what a steal. Where are we? Okay, uh, you can also get our march at t public dot com. Slash the Bechdel cast, if you are so inclined. And with that, um I mean I think we should mention we've been shirtless for the last half of the episode. I mean, am I gonna put my clothes back on? We'll see. Carmen deal with it right. Bye, bye, bye,