Near-oxymoronic requirements: the materials challenges of fusion energy

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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Nuclear fusion powers the sun, and scientists and

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engineers have long been trying to harness the

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process to generate clean energy.

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While much progress has been made, the commercially

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viable generation of fusion energy

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remains elusive.

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One important challenge is developing a range of

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specialized materials

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that can contain an extremely hot radiation

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emitting plasma

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in close proximity

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to ultra cold superconducting

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magnets.

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Our guest this week is Jacob John of

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The UK's Atomic Energy Authority.

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He studies how radiation damages materials.

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And in conversation with Physics World's Mateen Durrani,

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he talks about the near oxymoronic

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materials requirements

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for fusion reactors

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and how they can be met.

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Hello, Jacob. Welcome to the Physics World podcast.

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Pleasure to meet you, Matin. I am really

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happy to be speaking with you. Alright. So

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let's start with the basics. Do you want

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to for listeners, do you want to tell

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us a bit about yourself and where you

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are? You're in France at the moment, aren't

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you?

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Yes, sir. So I work for the United

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Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority,

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and, we serve the British taxpayer.

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And I have the honor to represent the

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British taxpayer,

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in France currently. So in,

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in that's in CEA.

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That's in

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France's,

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nuclear energy,

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research laboratory.

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And,

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so so you work in fusion. So before

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we get on to exactly what you do,

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let's have a quick reminder about fusion power

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and, you know, why it's so important for,

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you know, the future of our planet and

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our energy mix and so on.

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Yes. That'd be a pleasure.

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So

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fundamentally,

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what a fusion machine or a fusion power

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plant is doing

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is transforming

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mass into energy.

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And,

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the energy density of the fuel that they're

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working with is so high that realistically,

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at our current energy consumption rate rates,

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running out is not a concern.

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They're they're beautiful machines,

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and

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and they're very comparable to particle accelerators actually

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in this the type of components they use

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with cryogenics,

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vacuum systems,

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the kind of materials.

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And

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that means in their core, they need a

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very precise control. So what you're talking about

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is very precise control

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over

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transforming mass into energy, which if you can

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accomplish that,

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you know,

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the benefits don't need to be described, to

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your audience. I know they're very,

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scientifically,

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kind of aligned.

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So

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but, yeah, to be able to turn energy

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in a mass into energy is great. Yeah.

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I mean, it's one of the fundamental things

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of, you know, physics, isn't it? So,

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a fusion machine, and, you've told me not

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to call it a reactor. It's a machine.

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And now these are I imagine I mean,

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you know, when we have one, they'll be

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and they are the ones we have at

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the moment are pretty extreme environments.

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So what

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sort of for those who don't know, what

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sort of conditions are typically found there and

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and sort of what sort of materials

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do we therefore need to survive in those

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kind of conditions?

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Yes. Lovely. So I would I would like

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to start with, where we talked about the,

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the machine,

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idea. I heard I've heard one I've heard

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a I can't remember who is, the leader

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of a of a private, fusion company. He

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describes them as,

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fusion generators.

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And,

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because really at the end of the day,

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where we were talking about,

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this precise control over this reaction,

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it's

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quite quite quite different than

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than,

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the nuclear power plants that we use today.

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And it's important to draw a a a

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designation between the two technologies.

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So you talked about the extreme environments, and

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they are very extreme.

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One of the difficulties or

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this deep irony of fusion machines

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is

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that you they perform better

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when you take very cold

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material,

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as cold as you can possibly make it.

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When you take very cold material, and bring

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it very close

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to very hot material. So so the hot

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material would be plasma. That's where the,

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that's where the, the light atoms are combining

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and superheated

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very, very hot.

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But, of course, we use magnets to control

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these reactions as

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and, and these magnets have to be kept

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cold. So the closer these magnets are to

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this very hot plasma, the better con the

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better control of the reaction you get. It's

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a bit simplistic,

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but in their core, they're they're almost oxymoronic

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machines.

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So we have,

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we we need very high temperature resistance,

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but they're very different than our existing,

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power plants because they're also

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very they're also very dynamic,

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very dynamic machines. So they're very hot,

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but they have rapid fluctuations.

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And these,

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the combination of the extreme temperature with the

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dynamics

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is,

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it it it presents conditions that we haven't

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tested.

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And kind of that's where you come in

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because you're working on, a plan for something

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called the Joule Horovitz

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Reactor

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Yes.

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Which is,

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a plan for a machine being built in,

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it's, in Cadarache in Southern France. So do

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you wanna explain

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where is it, when will it open, and

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what's it gonna do to help us understand

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materials that are relevant to fusion power?

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Very yes. So,

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the Joules Horrors Reactor is a is a

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fission

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material test facility

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being built in France.

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And,

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there's a consortium. And in this consortium, different,

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countries,

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have purchased in the past rights to the

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neutrons that come out of this machine.

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And, of course, with

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with approval from, from those that operate,

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they can use these neutrons to test various,

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degradation mechanisms or or develop fuels.

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So what what we're doing in the Fusero

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program, we're collaborating,

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with our French collaborators. It's very much an

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international collaboration.

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We have,

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we have, French contributors.

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We have our British contributors. But we we

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really share what we're doing,

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internationally

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as often as possible in order to get

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feedback and make sure that,

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we're collaborating with the right people and that

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what we're doing is,

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going in the right direction.

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So what we're doing in this program, what

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we're focusing on are highly

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instrumented experiments

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that that are testing

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material degradation

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mechanisms that result

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from dynamics.

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And this is

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during,

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neutron radiation. So these types of experiments,

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to operate in core, they're,

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they're,

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how do you say?

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Until we really started seriously,

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seeking to build commercially viable fusion power plants,

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it's hard to come up with the justification

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for this,

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for these kinds of experiments due to their

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expense and difficulty.

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But,

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with the promise of fusion power plants,

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we can justify these experiments. And they they

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become necessary.

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And and the Fusero program,

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so that's got I think you told me

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it's got eight different countries involved.

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So what how what you know, how did

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you go about doing that and what sort

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of projects are being lined up?

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Yes. So,

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it's the Fusira program is a collaboration between

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Britain and France.

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But

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we,

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we we wrote a survey

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and

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we to update our strategy, the Fusero program

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has been around for about ten years.

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Maybe maybe precisely, I think, eleven years. And,

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to update our strategy, we wrote a comprehensive,

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summary,

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of our existing strategy, and we asked the

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community to give us their insights, share us

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their insights with what they feel is important,

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for for, our, our program to explore.

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And, so yes.

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We sent it out to about 200,

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participants.

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Eight I think 13 participants from eight different

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countries responded. We have,

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got feedback from, privates from private industry, from

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academia, and national laboratories.

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And, really,

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we strengthened our existing strategy, but also

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exposed,

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a little some areas of focus.

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And so in terms of sort of specific,

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material questions,

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you know, you mentioned things like, tritium and

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steel and superconducting magnets. What sort of, what

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sort of things are we talking about?

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So we're interested in all of it,

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but we can't

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do all of it.

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But, and in in experiment that we're investing

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our energy into is one which describes

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thermal mechanical fatigue

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in a in in core. So that is

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we have a sample in the core of

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of this, wonderful Jules Horowitz,

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material test reactor.

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Incredible

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machine.

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Very, it's it's going to turn on to

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answer your previous question, it's gonna turn on

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in about ten years.

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Very sophisticated machine, and it, will complement the,

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the deep the the closing or the plan

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closing of the B R 2 reactor, which

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might get an extension to not important. But,

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they're they're they're they're they're reactors that actually

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complement each other.

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So

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to not get derailed too much,

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we're look we're working on the,

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the thermal mechanical,

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fatigue in core measurements.

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So we are

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planning to deliver an experiment

284
00:10:38,634 --> 00:10:39,375
of which

285
00:10:41,115 --> 00:10:42,095
precisely measures

286
00:10:43,034 --> 00:10:45,134
and changes or controls

287
00:10:45,899 --> 00:10:46,399
temperature

288
00:10:47,339 --> 00:10:50,539
and mechanical stress of a sample in core.

289
00:10:50,539 --> 00:10:53,600
So that is during very intense neutron irradiation.

290
00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:56,620
And this is a nontrivial thing to seek

291
00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:57,360
to accomplish.

292
00:10:58,825 --> 00:11:00,045
Some other experiments,

293
00:11:00,585 --> 00:11:01,945
of great interest are,

294
00:11:02,985 --> 00:11:05,004
are tritium production, which is essentially

295
00:11:06,264 --> 00:11:06,764
essentially,

296
00:11:07,598 --> 00:11:08,098
essentially,

297
00:11:09,625 --> 00:11:10,605
fission fuel.

298
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,480
This is this is a,

299
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,940
complicated subject to, to really

300
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,740
to plan around currently.

301
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,220
It's because,

302
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,019
yeah, there's concerns that

303
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,019
must be addressed.

304
00:11:27,584 --> 00:11:29,584
But we're also working on some other,

305
00:11:30,384 --> 00:11:33,105
some other some other experiments. We we're building

306
00:11:33,105 --> 00:11:37,204
some some experimental setups in Marseille right now

307
00:11:37,264 --> 00:11:39,824
where we examine subcritical crack growth of brittle

308
00:11:39,824 --> 00:11:42,620
materials. So this is interesting because windows are,

309
00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:45,039
infusion reactors or essential component,

310
00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:46,379
and they,

311
00:11:46,779 --> 00:11:47,419
they provide,

312
00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:51,580
isolation of the vacuum from from from air,

313
00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:51,820
from,

314
00:11:52,620 --> 00:11:53,120
pressurized

315
00:11:53,659 --> 00:11:54,159
volumes

316
00:11:55,285 --> 00:11:58,004
for diagnostic systems, but they're also subject to

317
00:11:58,004 --> 00:11:59,545
neutron loading and,

318
00:12:00,404 --> 00:12:03,705
and and due to their, changing temperature, fluctuating

319
00:12:03,845 --> 00:12:06,485
mechanical stress. So there there and, really, we

320
00:12:06,485 --> 00:12:08,720
don't we don't know that much about

321
00:12:09,139 --> 00:12:09,639
how,

322
00:12:10,539 --> 00:12:11,039
precise,

323
00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:15,899
material about about how much certain material property

324
00:12:15,899 --> 00:12:17,740
degradation mechanisms such as,

325
00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:20,539
subcritical crack growth in the field of fracture

326
00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:21,039
mechanics

327
00:12:21,544 --> 00:12:22,044
really

328
00:12:22,424 --> 00:12:22,924
changes

329
00:12:23,384 --> 00:12:24,684
with neutron irradiation.

330
00:12:25,304 --> 00:12:27,464
It's accurate to say we don't know if

331
00:12:27,464 --> 00:12:28,204
that mechanism

332
00:12:28,504 --> 00:12:30,524
actually gets worse or better,

333
00:12:31,865 --> 00:12:32,924
under these conditions.

334
00:12:33,304 --> 00:12:34,924
I'm sorry. That was a bit of a

335
00:12:36,179 --> 00:12:37,000
detailed answer.

336
00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:39,700
But how do you, I'm trying to think.

337
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,139
You know, how do you plan these experiments,

338
00:12:41,139 --> 00:12:42,820
something that's not gonna open for ten years?

339
00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:43,700
You know, how do you,

340
00:12:44,580 --> 00:12:46,259
how do you know what's what's gonna work,

341
00:12:46,259 --> 00:12:47,620
or how do you even plan that far

342
00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:48,120
ahead?

343
00:12:48,424 --> 00:12:50,664
That's seems like an insanely long time scale

344
00:12:50,664 --> 00:12:52,584
for these sort of things. So we have

345
00:12:52,584 --> 00:12:54,504
to think we have to think on these

346
00:12:54,504 --> 00:12:56,444
time scales. We have to think about,

347
00:12:57,064 --> 00:12:59,884
what kind we have to choose an experiment

348
00:12:59,944 --> 00:13:01,804
of an appropriate amount of complexity

349
00:13:02,184 --> 00:13:03,485
for ten years of planning.

350
00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:04,819
That said,

351
00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:06,740
the United UKAEA,

352
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,139
and I work in the materials division,

353
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,779
under, Amy Gandy,

354
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,740
and our director is Amanda Quadling.

355
00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:17,919
And we have, and some of my other,

356
00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:18,659
colleagues,

357
00:13:19,654 --> 00:13:21,174
Slava Coccinto and,

358
00:13:21,575 --> 00:13:22,315
Chris Hardy,

359
00:13:23,095 --> 00:13:24,154
we work together,

360
00:13:24,535 --> 00:13:27,335
and we do perform radiations in in other

361
00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:29,495
reactors that are actually that are actually on

362
00:13:29,495 --> 00:13:32,875
today. And so we both build experiments to,

363
00:13:33,335 --> 00:13:33,835
prove,

364
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,160
that to prove out, things that can be

365
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,040
proven out of a reactor. But then we

366
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,759
also have a radiation programs in operating reactors

367
00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:43,259
today

368
00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:46,920
that, that answers some really fundamental questions. And

369
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,759
and you kind of piece all of this

370
00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:49,259
together,

371
00:13:50,245 --> 00:13:52,264
in order to build robust strategies

372
00:13:52,644 --> 00:13:52,884
that,

373
00:13:53,764 --> 00:13:54,504
that inevitably

374
00:13:55,125 --> 00:13:58,245
must be answered at some point. So we're

375
00:13:58,245 --> 00:13:59,225
we're preparing,

376
00:13:59,924 --> 00:14:02,565
for the future. We're thinking ten, fifteen years

377
00:14:02,565 --> 00:14:04,690
out, but we're taking actions

378
00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:07,170
today that give us results today,

379
00:14:08,110 --> 00:14:09,970
to to really try to make,

380
00:14:11,790 --> 00:14:13,730
fusion power plants commercially viable.

381
00:14:14,509 --> 00:14:16,190
I was gonna say, how will that information

382
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:18,225
that you get from those experiments feed through

383
00:14:18,225 --> 00:14:20,625
to people building commercial power plants? If you

384
00:14:20,625 --> 00:14:23,105
talk to commercial fusion companies, they'll tell you,

385
00:14:23,105 --> 00:14:24,945
you know, we're on the cusp of doing

386
00:14:24,945 --> 00:14:27,345
something, but you're talking ten years ahead. How

387
00:14:27,345 --> 00:14:30,144
how do the time scales fit? So very

388
00:14:30,144 --> 00:14:31,764
interesting question. There's,

389
00:14:32,149 --> 00:14:33,429
at the end of the day, you're you're

390
00:14:33,429 --> 00:14:36,389
you're you're you're asking really the one of

391
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:37,990
the hardest things to pull off in research,

392
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:40,170
which is how do you do valuable research

393
00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:42,309
and turn it into outputs that make a

394
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:42,809
difference?

395
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:44,809
So we have to,

396
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:47,450
we have to be aware of

397
00:14:48,065 --> 00:14:49,904
what we intend to do with these results.

398
00:14:49,904 --> 00:14:50,965
Are we going to,

399
00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:55,445
patent our inventions that that that have,

400
00:14:55,825 --> 00:14:56,804
commercial viability?

401
00:14:57,345 --> 00:14:59,664
Are we going to publish our work to

402
00:14:59,664 --> 00:15:02,164
enable other researchers to progress the field?

403
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,480
Are we going to maybe learn something specific

404
00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:08,340
that we then integrate into a commercially viable

405
00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:10,840
or a design of a of of Britain's,

406
00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:13,800
fusion fusion power plant?

407
00:15:15,774 --> 00:15:16,274
There's

408
00:15:16,735 --> 00:15:17,235
there's

409
00:15:17,855 --> 00:15:18,355
there's

410
00:15:19,134 --> 00:15:20,654
we have to be we always have to

411
00:15:20,654 --> 00:15:21,875
be conscious about,

412
00:15:22,575 --> 00:15:23,075
translating

413
00:15:23,535 --> 00:15:24,915
our research into value.

414
00:15:25,535 --> 00:15:26,035
And

415
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:29,750
and and we have to we have to

416
00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:32,070
know where we're going. So you asked,

417
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,309
how do we make how do we ensure

418
00:15:34,309 --> 00:15:36,389
that what we're doing makes a difference? And

419
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:38,549
and and I really do think it comes

420
00:15:38,549 --> 00:15:42,250
down to thinking ten years, fifteen years ahead

421
00:15:42,414 --> 00:15:44,495
and knowing where we're going and why we're

422
00:15:44,495 --> 00:15:45,934
doing it. And,

423
00:15:46,975 --> 00:15:47,475
and,

424
00:15:48,735 --> 00:15:50,654
yeah, I guess we'll see we'll see in

425
00:15:50,654 --> 00:15:52,274
ten years if that's valid.

426
00:15:53,294 --> 00:15:55,215
And so you're in Kadesh in France. Obviously,

427
00:15:55,215 --> 00:15:57,199
everyone knows that for the ITER

428
00:15:58,539 --> 00:16:02,139
fusion experimental experiment there. Do you have do

429
00:16:02,139 --> 00:16:03,579
you work together with them? How would how

430
00:16:03,579 --> 00:16:05,419
does the information from what you're planning to

431
00:16:05,419 --> 00:16:07,039
do, how will that fit into

432
00:16:07,419 --> 00:16:09,039
what might go on there at ITER?

433
00:16:09,579 --> 00:16:11,120
Yeah. So, ITER,

434
00:16:12,125 --> 00:16:14,365
I've had the great honor to visit it

435
00:16:14,365 --> 00:16:15,024
three times

436
00:16:15,884 --> 00:16:18,524
in the last, I think, six months. And

437
00:16:18,524 --> 00:16:19,424
each time,

438
00:16:19,884 --> 00:16:22,384
I was shocked how much progress they're making.

439
00:16:22,605 --> 00:16:23,105
There's

440
00:16:23,644 --> 00:16:26,365
very large components being as very large, very

441
00:16:26,365 --> 00:16:26,865
complex

442
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,139
components being assembled and installed today.

443
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:31,340
This place,

444
00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:35,080
looks like a place where lots of work

445
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,620
is happening. So,

446
00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:39,820
I'm I'm very impressed with that project.

447
00:16:40,565 --> 00:16:42,404
We have the great and and and and

448
00:16:42,404 --> 00:16:45,125
through through doing these amazing things, they they

449
00:16:45,125 --> 00:16:46,024
really have,

450
00:16:48,004 --> 00:16:49,304
they've really exposed

451
00:16:51,365 --> 00:16:53,225
crucial questions that need to be answered.

452
00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:56,950
So we we we've had the chance to,

453
00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:58,070
to,

454
00:16:58,610 --> 00:17:01,089
integrate with, people at various levels in the

455
00:17:01,089 --> 00:17:01,830
ITER program.

456
00:17:02,370 --> 00:17:04,549
And for specific specific,

457
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:07,829
projects, we would discuss specifications

458
00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:09,029
of theirs,

459
00:17:09,404 --> 00:17:11,805
and how we and and and then how

460
00:17:11,805 --> 00:17:12,465
can we,

461
00:17:13,565 --> 00:17:14,865
change what we're doing

462
00:17:15,164 --> 00:17:15,664
to,

463
00:17:16,525 --> 00:17:17,025
support

464
00:17:17,325 --> 00:17:18,625
the the questions

465
00:17:18,924 --> 00:17:21,265
that they have deemed to be crucial.

466
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,720
So we do have the opportunity to, kind

467
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,019
of collaborate with them,

468
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:27,859
but they are

469
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,119
in much later phases. So it's maybe less

470
00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,279
of a collaboration and more of us learning

471
00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,134
from them, from their from their decisions and

472
00:17:36,134 --> 00:17:38,215
and and understanding the things that they're concerned

473
00:17:38,215 --> 00:17:40,154
about and trying to keep us,

474
00:17:40,535 --> 00:17:42,075
on path on the right path.

475
00:17:42,775 --> 00:17:44,535
And the under other interesting thing you mentioned

476
00:17:44,535 --> 00:17:46,934
to me was that the role of, computer

477
00:17:46,934 --> 00:17:48,154
modeling and AI

478
00:17:48,695 --> 00:17:52,009
approaches can play in kind of complementing the

479
00:17:52,009 --> 00:17:54,329
experiments that you're gonna do with when you

480
00:17:54,329 --> 00:17:57,130
come to test materials in a fusion reactor.

481
00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:58,490
So do you wanna tell us a bit

482
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:59,150
about that?

483
00:17:59,849 --> 00:18:00,349
Yes.

484
00:18:01,049 --> 00:18:02,809
So a very, very,

485
00:18:03,369 --> 00:18:04,934
I'm excited about about,

486
00:18:05,335 --> 00:18:07,595
applying artificial intelligence. Of course,

487
00:18:08,055 --> 00:18:10,055
how you choose to do it, maybe considering

488
00:18:10,055 --> 00:18:11,975
to use local models if you're working with

489
00:18:11,975 --> 00:18:12,475
something

490
00:18:12,855 --> 00:18:14,615
either, of course, choosing not to use a

491
00:18:14,615 --> 00:18:17,195
model if it's, if it's something sensitive.

492
00:18:17,779 --> 00:18:19,240
Using a local model

493
00:18:20,019 --> 00:18:20,179
if,

494
00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:21,619
if,

495
00:18:22,019 --> 00:18:24,599
if if it's if it's if it's wise.

496
00:18:24,819 --> 00:18:26,339
So we have to we have to apply

497
00:18:26,339 --> 00:18:28,659
it in intelligent ways and and and and

498
00:18:28,659 --> 00:18:29,880
be aware of security,

499
00:18:30,339 --> 00:18:33,391
security concerns that that they present. That said,

500
00:18:33,658 --> 00:18:34,424
the technology,

501
00:18:35,365 --> 00:18:35,865
seems

502
00:18:36,164 --> 00:18:36,664
to

503
00:18:38,804 --> 00:18:40,345
seems to offer an opportunity

504
00:18:40,724 --> 00:18:44,005
to accelerate research and development dramatically. Not only

505
00:18:44,005 --> 00:18:46,599
in in the in in in giving giving

506
00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:49,480
researchers access and then and access to information

507
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,319
and what other people are doing much more

508
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,039
easily, enabling them to be more creative. But

509
00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:56,920
just planning and just simple things like planning

510
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:57,980
and getting projects,

511
00:18:58,595 --> 00:18:59,095
justified

512
00:18:59,955 --> 00:19:02,615
and and and executing projects,

513
00:19:03,394 --> 00:19:05,815
will be so much easier. I'm very excited

514
00:19:06,275 --> 00:19:08,515
about the effect that this will have on

515
00:19:08,515 --> 00:19:09,734
fusion long term.

516
00:19:11,549 --> 00:19:12,049
I

517
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:13,650
it seems that

518
00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:18,350
that this is that artificial intelligence is almost

519
00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:21,150
an enabling technology for fusion. So this is,

520
00:19:21,789 --> 00:19:24,110
very exciting, a very exciting time to be

521
00:19:24,110 --> 00:19:26,815
in fusion. The the the the the questions

522
00:19:26,955 --> 00:19:28,174
that need answering,

523
00:19:29,115 --> 00:19:31,375
there's so many valuable things to do.

524
00:19:31,674 --> 00:19:35,535
And, with artificial intelligence, you really feel empowered

525
00:19:35,994 --> 00:19:38,394
to, accomplish as much as possible and really

526
00:19:38,394 --> 00:19:39,855
contribute as much as possible

527
00:19:40,289 --> 00:19:41,750
to our shared mission,

528
00:19:42,450 --> 00:19:44,610
that that humans share. It's very a human

529
00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:46,309
thing, to try to,

530
00:19:47,090 --> 00:19:47,590
control,

531
00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:48,289
the,

532
00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:51,750
the the the fusion, the fusion process.

533
00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:52,630
And

534
00:19:53,835 --> 00:19:56,075
on a short very short tangent, but but

535
00:19:56,075 --> 00:19:58,335
something very interesting about the fusion industry is

536
00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:02,234
dating back to when, when tokamaks were being

537
00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:02,734
invented,

538
00:20:03,194 --> 00:20:03,694
during

539
00:20:04,554 --> 00:20:05,454
dating back

540
00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:06,930
quite some time ago,

541
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:10,130
If fusion the fusion industry in its core

542
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:10,950
is a very,

543
00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:12,630
a very collaborative,

544
00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:14,869
a very collaborative thing.

545
00:20:15,250 --> 00:20:15,750
And

546
00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:16,610
and,

547
00:20:16,930 --> 00:20:17,430
so

548
00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:21,345
it's it's it's very nice to have the

549
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:21,845
feeling

550
00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:22,804
that,

551
00:20:23,585 --> 00:20:25,204
you're contributing to humanity's

552
00:20:25,664 --> 00:20:27,125
to humanity's benefit.

553
00:20:27,585 --> 00:20:29,904
And, it's it really is something that I

554
00:20:29,904 --> 00:20:30,404
feel,

555
00:20:31,024 --> 00:20:32,644
you can derive hope from.

556
00:20:33,024 --> 00:20:34,890
So would the AI be a case of,

557
00:20:35,529 --> 00:20:38,250
drawing information from different sources together to give

558
00:20:38,250 --> 00:20:40,809
you a clearer picture of what's happened? Or

559
00:20:40,809 --> 00:20:42,190
would it be about suggesting

560
00:20:42,809 --> 00:20:44,970
new types of experiments or coming up with

561
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:46,829
ideas for materials to test?

562
00:20:47,335 --> 00:20:48,475
How do you see it happening?

563
00:20:48,855 --> 00:20:50,695
So the funny thing is is I think

564
00:20:50,695 --> 00:20:53,595
it's just a it's just a fundamental

565
00:20:54,134 --> 00:20:55,755
everyone gets more productive.

566
00:20:56,215 --> 00:20:58,555
I think it's just everyone gets

567
00:20:58,934 --> 00:21:00,615
as simple as people get better at writing

568
00:21:00,615 --> 00:21:01,115
emails

569
00:21:02,289 --> 00:21:05,269
to to people actually get better at,

570
00:21:06,049 --> 00:21:08,070
at learning things more quickly.

571
00:21:08,769 --> 00:21:11,990
And these these these small changes compounds.

572
00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:14,630
Even, like,

573
00:21:16,065 --> 00:21:17,605
people write script

574
00:21:18,144 --> 00:21:18,964
more quickly.

575
00:21:19,505 --> 00:21:21,984
And these these things are going to have,

576
00:21:22,785 --> 00:21:25,984
really compounding effects on, on on on on

577
00:21:25,984 --> 00:21:28,464
on our macro scale projects, on the macro

578
00:21:28,464 --> 00:21:29,204
scale effect,

579
00:21:29,870 --> 00:21:32,830
on on the effects will be really, really

580
00:21:32,830 --> 00:21:35,710
interesting to watch over time. So, for me,

581
00:21:35,950 --> 00:21:39,410
my favorite thing is I've always enjoyed writing

582
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:41,250
numerical solvers. So,

583
00:21:41,965 --> 00:21:42,865
I always enjoyed,

584
00:21:43,325 --> 00:21:45,805
kind of defining mathematical models and then using

585
00:21:45,805 --> 00:21:47,025
partial differential equations

586
00:21:47,404 --> 00:21:49,325
to, to describe the model. And then I

587
00:21:49,325 --> 00:21:50,384
would always write,

588
00:21:51,244 --> 00:21:52,384
numerical solvers.

589
00:21:52,765 --> 00:21:55,210
My preferred preferred language is MATLAB. And they

590
00:21:55,210 --> 00:21:57,690
were always writing numerical solvers to solve these

591
00:21:57,690 --> 00:21:58,190
equations.

592
00:21:58,970 --> 00:22:00,750
But then to do the plotting

593
00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:03,690
and just just, like, just to make the

594
00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:06,170
scripts and make sure there's no bugs takes

595
00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:07,150
a lot of time.

596
00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:09,865
And and and I love doing it, but

597
00:22:09,865 --> 00:22:12,424
now you can do that so quickly. It's

598
00:22:12,424 --> 00:22:14,525
so empowering. It feels so good.

599
00:22:15,784 --> 00:22:17,144
Yeah. No. I can imagine that. I'm just

600
00:22:17,144 --> 00:22:19,085
saying that must be a great great feeling.

601
00:22:19,544 --> 00:22:20,044
Yeah.

602
00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:22,919
But coming back the Fusaro program that you've

603
00:22:22,919 --> 00:22:25,000
been being involved in, you know, so obviously

604
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,440
the question is how, you know, how is

605
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,759
that gonna help the results from the how

606
00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:29,660
will that help

607
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,500
accelerate the timeline towards a working fusion reactor?

608
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,924
I mean, realistically, how would it help?

609
00:22:36,325 --> 00:22:37,465
So we are addressing

610
00:22:37,845 --> 00:22:38,345
some

611
00:22:38,965 --> 00:22:42,244
some pretty fundamental questions. Our our objective with

612
00:22:42,244 --> 00:22:45,144
with with Fusero c, which is characterizing

613
00:22:45,525 --> 00:22:46,904
thermal mechanical fatigue

614
00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:47,765
with,

615
00:22:48,259 --> 00:22:49,880
with plasma facing components.

616
00:22:50,259 --> 00:22:53,940
If we characterize this properly, engineers can make

617
00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:54,840
design decisions

618
00:22:55,299 --> 00:22:55,799
that

619
00:22:56,259 --> 00:22:56,759
enable

620
00:22:57,619 --> 00:23:00,180
the the the machine to operate for longer

621
00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:01,240
periods of time

622
00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:03,400
without shutting off.

623
00:23:03,784 --> 00:23:06,505
It enables us to design materials that can

624
00:23:06,505 --> 00:23:07,724
operate at higher temperatures.

625
00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:10,825
Both of those things have a profound effect

626
00:23:10,825 --> 00:23:12,365
on the economics of the machine.

627
00:23:13,144 --> 00:23:15,565
So by addressing the fundamental

628
00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:18,470
the fundamental questions,

629
00:23:19,009 --> 00:23:20,230
in material degradation,

630
00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:21,670
we are

631
00:23:22,289 --> 00:23:25,410
we we enable ourselves to make machines that

632
00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:28,690
are more financially competitive. And what's interesting about

633
00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:29,990
this is

634
00:23:30,609 --> 00:23:31,509
when you increase

635
00:23:32,225 --> 00:23:34,785
the operating temperature or the outlet temperature of

636
00:23:34,785 --> 00:23:36,244
coolant from a,

637
00:23:36,625 --> 00:23:38,484
fusion machine by

638
00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:41,445
like, let's just say you double it.

639
00:23:43,505 --> 00:23:45,684
This more than doubles the economic

640
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:48,240
competitiveness

641
00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:50,799
of the machine that you're working with. So

642
00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:52,160
so small changes

643
00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:54,320
have a profound effect.

644
00:23:54,779 --> 00:23:56,779
And, and that's really what we need. We

645
00:23:56,779 --> 00:23:58,619
need a lot of these kind of, like,

646
00:23:58,619 --> 00:23:59,119
nonlinear

647
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:01,964
increases in performance, and and I think we're

648
00:24:01,964 --> 00:24:03,565
going to see that. And what we really

649
00:24:03,565 --> 00:24:06,224
do need are these these kinds of experiments,

650
00:24:06,365 --> 00:24:07,825
these in situ,

651
00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:12,765
heavily instrumented experiments in material test reactors that

652
00:24:12,765 --> 00:24:13,585
exist today.

653
00:24:15,549 --> 00:24:16,990
And look into the future then,

654
00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:18,690
Jacob.

655
00:24:20,509 --> 00:24:22,369
You know, what sort of technical milestones

656
00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:23,490
do you see,

657
00:24:23,950 --> 00:24:26,109
you're gonna hope to achieve with that Fusero

658
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,809
program in the next few years?

659
00:24:28,964 --> 00:24:31,525
So this this is, like, this is very

660
00:24:31,525 --> 00:24:32,025
dependent

661
00:24:32,644 --> 00:24:34,744
on, on the funding that we get.

662
00:24:35,204 --> 00:24:36,744
But we have plans,

663
00:24:37,845 --> 00:24:39,944
we we have plans to deliver.

664
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:41,509
We have

665
00:24:42,289 --> 00:24:45,090
detailed plans that we're very confident we can

666
00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:46,390
stick to the time,

667
00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:49,029
to that we can deliver some

668
00:24:49,410 --> 00:24:52,309
some pretty important results inside of four years.

669
00:24:52,765 --> 00:24:53,505
And so

670
00:24:54,605 --> 00:24:57,085
this is this kind of inside of four

671
00:24:57,085 --> 00:24:57,565
years,

672
00:24:57,964 --> 00:24:58,865
that is possible,

673
00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:01,184
assuming we get the funding necessary.

674
00:25:02,605 --> 00:25:04,444
But these kinds of things, I mean, sometimes

675
00:25:04,444 --> 00:25:06,224
you have to spend time,

676
00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:07,170
you know,

677
00:25:07,970 --> 00:25:09,890
sometimes the experiment that you're working with has

678
00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:12,070
to be in the reactor for a year.

679
00:25:12,369 --> 00:25:14,690
So it's like, there's nothing you can't make

680
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:16,769
it be less than one year. And so

681
00:25:16,769 --> 00:25:17,990
four years is actually,

682
00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:19,570
quite quite,

683
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:22,390
quite competitive when it comes to

684
00:25:24,154 --> 00:25:25,775
time and durations and delivery.

685
00:25:27,835 --> 00:25:30,154
So we we do want to see changes

686
00:25:30,154 --> 00:25:31,214
and and impacts

687
00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:32,974
as soon as possible,

688
00:25:34,234 --> 00:25:36,494
but we have to be honest with ourselves

689
00:25:36,795 --> 00:25:37,194
that,

690
00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:39,330
what we're trying to do isn't something that

691
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:40,230
happens quickly.

692
00:25:40,609 --> 00:25:42,210
So that would be four years after the

693
00:25:42,210 --> 00:25:44,390
thing turns on in in ten years' time.

694
00:25:44,849 --> 00:25:46,630
So as I said as I said earlier,

695
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,785
so we are planning for the Jules Horrods

696
00:25:49,865 --> 00:25:52,265
reactor, and there's some experiments that we're developing

697
00:25:52,265 --> 00:25:54,125
that do actually need ten years of experiment,

698
00:25:54,424 --> 00:25:55,005
of development.

699
00:25:55,545 --> 00:25:57,164
But we have plans,

700
00:25:57,705 --> 00:25:59,865
plans we have plans, and there are only

701
00:25:59,865 --> 00:26:00,924
plans right now,

702
00:26:02,345 --> 00:26:04,285
to leverage other machines

703
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:05,980
to

704
00:26:06,679 --> 00:26:07,399
do something,

705
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:09,399
do something today. And we we do have

706
00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:11,500
actually have radiation programs going,

707
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,679
today. But what's interesting is when you operate

708
00:26:14,679 --> 00:26:17,319
one one radiation program in one machine, maybe

709
00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:20,194
prove out some experimental concepts, you can then

710
00:26:20,194 --> 00:26:22,355
use it again in a different machine assuming

711
00:26:22,355 --> 00:26:24,595
you have the right agreements in place with

712
00:26:24,595 --> 00:26:26,914
the laboratories that you're working with. Yeah. Given

713
00:26:26,914 --> 00:26:28,755
those long time scales, you know, if if

714
00:26:28,755 --> 00:26:29,575
I was a

715
00:26:30,049 --> 00:26:32,609
a, you know, young student going into, you

716
00:26:32,609 --> 00:26:34,289
know, thinking where to go with my research

717
00:26:34,289 --> 00:26:36,069
career, these are very long term questions.

718
00:26:36,849 --> 00:26:38,769
Some people might want a quicker fix than

719
00:26:38,769 --> 00:26:40,450
sort of things that happen quicker than that.

720
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:43,009
What do you see as the,

721
00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:45,944
attractions of working in this area if you're

722
00:26:45,944 --> 00:26:48,105
a sort of up and coming scientist or

723
00:26:48,105 --> 00:26:48,605
engineer?

724
00:26:49,384 --> 00:26:51,865
I would say the the best thing about

725
00:26:51,865 --> 00:26:53,325
working in the fusion industry

726
00:26:54,184 --> 00:26:54,684
is,

727
00:26:55,545 --> 00:26:56,984
the people that you get to spend your

728
00:26:56,984 --> 00:26:57,724
time with.

729
00:26:58,349 --> 00:26:58,849
The

730
00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:00,990
it's it's a pleasure to come in every

731
00:27:00,990 --> 00:27:03,630
day and work with people that love what

732
00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:06,670
they're doing, and and every person is excited

733
00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:09,250
to share what they're working on. So,

734
00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:11,490
if that's something that you like doing,

735
00:27:12,509 --> 00:27:12,829
then,

736
00:27:13,414 --> 00:27:14,554
then it's a good place.

737
00:27:15,015 --> 00:27:16,694
But but but I also appreciate what you

738
00:27:16,694 --> 00:27:19,974
say. Like like, my background is actually, I've

739
00:27:19,974 --> 00:27:22,054
I've been interested in I've been my my

740
00:27:22,054 --> 00:27:24,214
first role in in the nuclear facility was

741
00:27:24,214 --> 00:27:25,434
almost ten years ago.

742
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,269
But I have also had in, positions

743
00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:29,470
working in,

744
00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:31,070
other industries

745
00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:34,029
that have very high pressure, very high turnaround,

746
00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:37,230
and I do like that. So

747
00:27:38,009 --> 00:27:39,630
so you're asking a good question.

748
00:27:40,015 --> 00:27:40,755
And I

749
00:27:41,294 --> 00:27:41,794
think

750
00:27:42,174 --> 00:27:44,575
so there's first, there's some private private in

751
00:27:44,654 --> 00:27:46,755
private industries. Some private companies,

752
00:27:48,335 --> 00:27:50,894
depending on how much funding they have, they

753
00:27:50,894 --> 00:27:52,335
do they do build a fair amount of

754
00:27:52,335 --> 00:27:52,835
experiments.

755
00:27:53,134 --> 00:27:54,595
But if you align yourself

756
00:27:54,974 --> 00:27:55,474
with

757
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,039
with if you if you if you present

758
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:01,200
yourself and you build the skill set of

759
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,460
actually building things, like like,

760
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:04,500
familiar

761
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,420
with with manufacturing

762
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:07,299
facilities

763
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,580
and

764
00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:11,375
tolerances and materials and actually

765
00:28:11,755 --> 00:28:13,454
designing and putting things together,

766
00:28:14,554 --> 00:28:16,075
there will be roles for you. And something

767
00:28:16,075 --> 00:28:19,134
that I'm very excited about, with artificial intelligence

768
00:28:19,515 --> 00:28:20,575
is that it's

769
00:28:20,875 --> 00:28:21,375
it's

770
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:22,734
it accelerates

771
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:23,980
things

772
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,259
like things like,

773
00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:30,440
things that you would use computers for, but

774
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,500
it doesn't accelerate,

775
00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,779
running a mill or running a CNC machine.

776
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,095
And I think what we're gonna see is

777
00:28:37,575 --> 00:28:38,075
more,

778
00:28:39,015 --> 00:28:39,494
more,

779
00:28:40,054 --> 00:28:41,994
more value put onto the production

780
00:28:42,694 --> 00:28:45,914
and the assembly and the actual experiments experiments.

781
00:28:46,615 --> 00:28:47,115
So

782
00:28:47,494 --> 00:28:48,394
I would say,

783
00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,275
if you want to be in fusion,

784
00:28:51,654 --> 00:28:52,954
learn physics,

785
00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:53,880
learn,

786
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,039
many many fields in engineering. Don't specialize don't

787
00:28:58,259 --> 00:29:01,059
stick yourself into one like, I studied mechanical

788
00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559
engineering,

789
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,220
but I took extra courses in physics and,

790
00:29:05,855 --> 00:29:08,015
and math and electrical engineering, and and you

791
00:29:08,015 --> 00:29:09,315
can combine these subjects.

792
00:29:10,015 --> 00:29:10,994
But I also,

793
00:29:11,615 --> 00:29:14,355
took a job, working in a manufacturing facility

794
00:29:14,815 --> 00:29:18,015
where, I I I didn't necessarily get paid

795
00:29:18,015 --> 00:29:20,259
to directly use those skill sets. But but

796
00:29:20,259 --> 00:29:21,319
learning learning

797
00:29:21,779 --> 00:29:24,359
from people operating machines, how to build things,

798
00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:29,059
is probably one of the most, complimentary and

799
00:29:29,059 --> 00:29:29,539
valuable,

800
00:29:29,859 --> 00:29:32,019
experiences that I've had. So I would really

801
00:29:32,019 --> 00:29:33,960
suggest for for students,

802
00:29:34,964 --> 00:29:37,224
to study physics, to do PhDs,

803
00:29:37,765 --> 00:29:40,404
but to not shy away from working in

804
00:29:40,404 --> 00:29:41,704
manufacturing facilities.

805
00:29:42,724 --> 00:29:44,164
So have you got any sense before we

806
00:29:44,164 --> 00:29:46,244
finish about, you know, time scales? So when

807
00:29:46,244 --> 00:29:47,160
will we see a

808
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:49,640
commercial fusion reactor

809
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,160
sorry, machine that's generating electricity into the grid?

810
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,920
That's always the question that everyone wants to

811
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,420
know.

812
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:57,640
Which which country are you talking about? It

813
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,099
depends. Different countries

814
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,259
are taking different approaches

815
00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:02,059
and

816
00:30:02,894 --> 00:30:03,394
and

817
00:30:04,335 --> 00:30:06,734
and taking different approaches, and they're kind of

818
00:30:06,734 --> 00:30:08,355
testing out different technology.

819
00:30:08,815 --> 00:30:10,734
So it really does depend who you're talking

820
00:30:10,734 --> 00:30:11,234
about.

821
00:30:12,815 --> 00:30:13,474
I wouldn't

822
00:30:13,934 --> 00:30:16,434
I wouldn't like, I like like, our project,

823
00:30:16,980 --> 00:30:19,380
The United Kingdom's project, our target is twenty

824
00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:19,880
forty.

825
00:30:21,539 --> 00:30:22,599
But, you know,

826
00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,700
our technology is different than than other than

827
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:26,180
other,

828
00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:29,240
than other technologies in other countries. So,

829
00:30:30,019 --> 00:30:31,539
you know, I wouldn't wanna give out a

830
00:30:31,539 --> 00:30:32,039
number,

831
00:30:32,384 --> 00:30:35,285
but, our target is twenty forty, and and

832
00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:38,325
and our and our project is quite comprehensive.

833
00:30:39,904 --> 00:30:42,384
Alright. Okay. So any final message before you

834
00:30:42,384 --> 00:30:43,684
go to people listening?

835
00:30:44,869 --> 00:30:45,690
No. I I,

836
00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:48,470
I wanna thank you for the time to

837
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:48,970
speak.

838
00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:52,150
I'm I think we should all be very

839
00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:55,289
excited about the future for the fusion industry,

840
00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:56,170
and

841
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:58,710
those that want to,

842
00:30:59,029 --> 00:31:00,410
enter the fusion industry

843
00:31:01,205 --> 00:31:02,105
should learn

844
00:31:02,565 --> 00:31:03,865
about building things,

845
00:31:04,484 --> 00:31:05,625
about manufacturing.

846
00:31:06,884 --> 00:31:08,964
Yeah. Alright. That's a good note to end

847
00:31:08,964 --> 00:31:11,285
on. Alright. Thanks very much, Jacob. Great to

848
00:31:11,285 --> 00:31:12,724
talk to you, and good luck with your

849
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endeavors.

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00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,660
And I know you're about there it's Friday

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afternoon we're recording this, though. You you've got

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00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:18,940
a couple of hours before you have to

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00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,339
leave. So, thanks for fitting us in. Oh,

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it's a pleasure to speak. A great pleasure.

855
00:31:23,740 --> 00:31:26,559
Thank you, thank you for making time, Martin.

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00:31:33,775 --> 00:31:36,575
That was Jacob John of The UK's Atomic

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00:31:36,575 --> 00:31:37,714
Energy Authority

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00:31:38,015 --> 00:31:38,835
in conversation

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with Physics World's Matin Durrani.

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00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:43,160
Thanks to both of them for a fascinating

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conversation.

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I'm afraid that's all the time we have

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for this episode. I'm Hamish Johnston, and our

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00:31:49,299 --> 00:31:50,919
producer is Fred Iles.

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The music for Physics World's podcast is called

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00:31:54,019 --> 00:31:56,804
one three seven, and it was composed and

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00:31:56,804 --> 00:31:58,424
performed by the physicist

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00:31:58,964 --> 00:31:59,785
Philip Moriarty.

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We'll be back again next week.