Promising Young Woman with Sierra Katow

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Jamie and Caitlin here, we just wanted to give a quick content warning. At the top of this episode. We are talking about promising young woman today, UM, and so there's gonna be a content warning for UM sexual abuse. There is uh we which we tried our best, but there are obviously some descriptions UM that take place within the movie. And we just want everyone to take care of themselves. Yes. Indeed, on the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we discuss movies that you won't stop asking us to cover from an intersectional lens and then sometimes movies the you know, in the case of the Human Centipede, for example, that um no one asked us to cover. Are you sure about that? I would check the numbers and I think there was a good to three hundred to three hundred thousand. Yes. Our listenership is just astronomical and just really wanted to know how we felt about um feminism in The Human Centipede spoiler alert, it's perfect. So it's a feminist masterpieces, as you heard on that episode. But today today's movie falls into the category of um. Our listeners were relentless to the point where I was like, I don't want to do it, and then it was like, well, we we're doing it. We're doing it here, we are the Betel cast, and and and so we we um. We analyze movies using an intersectional feminist lend, jumping off from the Bechdel test. But what is that, Caitlin and Way, Well, gee whiz, I'm happy to tell you. It is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, that, for our purposes are little version of the test um. Two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, and they have to speak to each other about something other than a man for a meaningful conversation is what we're going with these days. Sure, so some movies do it with ease. Others simply have never thought of the concept of women of people talking to each other I'm sick to even think about it really truly. So yes, that is that's the show. Um. Today's episode is Promising Young Woman, which I understand why we got so many requests. Yes, a lot to discuss, yes, but also I'm mad at all of you. It's it's a very challenging movie. Um. And we have a guest joining us that we're delighted to have. She is a comedian actor writer. She voices a couple of characters in Riyah in the Last Dragon. She's a writer on Close Enough on HBO Max. It's Sierra Coudo. Hello, Hey, thanks for having me. We're excited to be here. We are so excited to have you. So normally we do like, what's your like history with this movie, but since it's such a new release, I guess tell us you're just kind of like general notion of the movie, general thoughts and feelings surrounding it. Sure. Yeah, I mean I think I I really liked it. I had just watched it, like without knowing anything about it, which was, you know, kay of a lot to take in obviously, because it's like if you don't know the cover that the cover of the movie is like girl with like kind of pastel colors, and I don't know, you know, I was just like, Okay, interesting, I wonder what this is gonna be about. But like Carrie Mulligan and like the fact that, you know, it seems to be nominated for a lot of stuff that's good. Um. So then I watched it, and then I watched it again almost like the next day, because I was so um yeah, I was just like so intrigued by it and the fact that, um, you know, I guess movies with those heavy topics sometimes you've got to watch it again just to be like, oh wait, I gotta catch what everything, you know, what was going on? Because now I know what it's actually about. So so yeah, nice, um Jamie, what about what about you? This was this is honestly, this was a tough movie for for me. Not because I think it's not good. I think it's very good. Um, and I really enjoyed, uh well enjoyed maybe isn't. I didn't enjoy watching this movie either time I watched did. I had a really horrible time. I just uh, yeah, I I this is like a movie that hits very close to home for me in a way that is like just tough I don't know. I tried to kind of prepare myself going into it and made sure I had like a clearish idea of um of what was going on, but it was, I don't know. The first time I saw this movie, it was at a drive in for some reason. I mean the reason was COVID but also horrible movie to see you to drive in. Uh. And and it just like it truly did like trigger a lot in me. I I don't really want to get too too into it, but I like had an experience with campus assault that is not identical to promising young woman in any way, but but a lot of the dynamics at play were very similar, and it seems to have happened around a similar time ish that the reference thing. It just the specificity with which it it just it was really hard. H So by the first I finished watching the movie, I honestly had no idea if I liked it, didn't like it or anything. I just was like really affected by it, and it like really fucked me up. And I texted you, Caitlin, and I said, I do not want to cover this movie on the show. Like it just was so I don't know, like, and I it's even I don't I still have this like tiny edge lord inside of me that is like, don't say triggered, But that was the response. It was like it just sucked me up for two days seeing this movie and just brought up all these um old bad feelings, you know. And but but after a while it was like, you know, I've I think it's been like two months ish since I first I saw it, like pretty close to when it was released, and I, you know, it just like seems like, okay, you know what, the requests aren't going to stop coming. It is Uh, it is an important movie, you know, an important current movie, I think, and um, Sierra is like I couldn't think of a better guest to talk about it with. And so yeah, going back through it this time, UM, I feel like I experienced it as a as a viewer and not as like a person trying to keep their brain in check. And yeah, I have a lot of thoughts. I will say that if you haven't seen this movie and this is like a triggering topic for you, like definitely tread lightly. I kind of wish I knew a little more going into the first thing, or I wouldn't have For example, seen it at a drive in or even seen it with another person. You know, it's it is very sensitive stuff. And if this is like a topic that is particularly difficult for you, take care of yourself. I wish I had taken a little better care of myself the first time. Yeah, but there's so much to talk about, Caitlin, What's what's your experiences? Yeah, I had a similar kind of reaction to the movie in the sense that I did not enjoy myself while I was watching it. I recognize that it's a good movie that is like well crafted and tackles a lot of important things worth tackling, But I I just I was very challenged by it regarding like some of the things that happened in the story. I also found it triggering, and I I don't want to watch it again. I'll say that that's a trick. Yeah, It's like the kind of movie where it's like, I love it, it's important. I never want to look at it ever again. Um, but I would. I would hope that just based on what I've you know, gathered about um Emerald Vanelle question, we may never know, shrug, But based on what I've gathered, like around her interviews, that does seem like something she wouldn't have a problem with. I don't know, Like, I think she's so cool and like so gutsy and brave for having made a movie like this, and the performances are incredible, Like I really really like it, but I never want to watch it again because just one of those things. I'll listen to the soundtrack, great soundtrack, got a good great soundtrack track. Yeah, I feel like I I listened to a few interviews about it with her, and um, I think that was also helpful because it kind of was like, you know, certain decisions that they that she made honestly like her talking about it. Yeah, I think was like, oh, this is a good way to like unpack this without having to like relive through the scenes or any of that totally. And like, so this movie is. It was originally supposed to be theatrically released in I think April, which obviously we got quite about this movie years ago. I remember I was talking about this like late, like it's going to be good, and I like I had seen the trailer like what felt like dozens of times, and I was like, oh, like this is going to be so good and I'm gonna love it and I don't. I don't. I don't know exactly what I was expecting, but it didn't quite match up with what the movie ended up being. Caitlin. Okay, a huge spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie, but like, did you not expect perhaps for the protagonist to be brutally murdered at the end of the movie, Because I certainly did not expect that. I will say I did not expect that, And again that's not even a criticism. I think that that is like an incredibly like not cool, you know, all things considered filmmaking choice. But it was like I was expecting, like revenge movie where where she wins. I was also expecting that, you know, one of those I actually, well, okay, like does that is a tough word like that to know. But I think what I appreciated about that ending, and I think this is something I also appreciated more when I heard Um the director talk about it, is that it made because because it is just so sad, it feels the most realistic, just from my own perspective that it's like, yeah, sure I would love to I don't know, I guess have revenge in these situations, but I just don't do that because I out of safety, you know. And then I think that like sometimes when the revenge does happen, that makes me almost feel worse because I'm like, well, god, I guess I should just do that, you know. But then obviously this kind of clarifies like, Okay, I think we're doing this out of survival if we're letting it go or not even letting it go. But you know what I mean, Like I think it did show that, like this is kind of another way that these outcomes can happen in movies hopefully, right, um, But yeah, so I don't know if it almost kind of like presented another way. I guess also speaking from a survivor's perspective myself, I guess it does feel like, you know, the relationship that I have with that is like, well, I guess I don't know, maybe I could have done more to prevent this, right, And so then I think that kind of was like okay, or or that could end very badly. We don't have a lot of choices, you know, Yeah, we don't have a lot of like options here. So I kind of appreciated it for that, even though totally brutal, what actually went down in the scene right just like whoa, um, yeah, yeah, I I totally hear you. And it's it's one of those endings where in the movie Parallel, I'm coming up with I really hope that someone could think of a better one. But um, just a movie in which, like there is this quest that like an oppressed characters on and at the end they lose. It doesn't necessarily mean that that is like not it may it may not mean it's an empowering story, but it doesn't mean it's not an important or impactful story. And fortunately, when I'm thinking of as Rosemary's baby, and that's not great, but that that you know, if you think about like Rosemary's quest to overcome this, she's met with only obstacles, and at the end she fails in that quest, and it's like she is crushed under the pressure that she's been you know, pushing against, and that I feel like it's like a similar thing that happens to to Cassie. She does everything she possibly could do and it's just it's too much, like it's too much for one person. Yeah, the movie I kept coming back to is like a comparison was Thelman Louise, let's go with that. But I don't think your example is bad. I think like they're major similarities between all of these types. But it also just goes to show that we need more stories about this that explore different coping mechanisms, different outcomes, different ways in which trauma is dealt with, and so that we just see a wide variety of possibilities, because I think there's there's like a tendency to assume, oh, well, if this has happened to you, if you're a survivor, here's the way to do it, here's the way to deal with it. So and it's never just a like one path that anyone's going to take, you know. So the more and again, I don't necessarily want to watch all of these movies all the time. Here's the twelve movies you asked for, Kalin, but there is a need for, you know, just different explorations of this story. Yeah, And so that was that, and I know I know this, we're we're structuring this episode slightly differently, but it's just there's so much heavy ship even before we talk about what happens in the movie. Um, something that was like sticking out to me and the way that this movie was reviewed was there was a lot of speculation on like whether the protagonist Cassie, who is on this you know, perhaps disorganized revenge mission, but like, but but this protagonist Cassie, um if like is she a good person or not? Which I feel like is not something that we ask of like male revenge protagonists. And so there were I I have a few quotes that I can bring up later in the episode because I just don't care to scroll at this moment. But but yeah, just a lot of speculation on like well, like in this revenge movie, you know, she's not like a perfect you know, she's not the perfect person. And it's like, yeah, when have you have you ever said that about like a movie? Like what do you just even? I don't know. It's it's so interesting too because it's like this movie he literally just came out and you still see those like to me, they just like feel like bizarre questions to be asking, and they're a little pointed and like, oh, this person seek revenge is not completely pure and but so fucking what like since when is that the promise of a movie like this? Like it's just such a bizarre even like premise. I don't know truly, Yeah, I hadn't seen those and then well, I mean this is something we can also talk about. But you know, there was that critic who deservedly got a lot of backlash for who like wrote that review in Variety being like, well, Carrie Mulligan wasn't pretty enough to play this character, and like for that to be criticism in a major publication that is happening in the years draft that you get rid of, sir, Like, that's that's not a publishable thing to say. Oh god, um, people's reactions. Uh still need work things, so um anyway should I I'm going to do a kind of shorter, less detailed, more condensed version of the recap just in the interest of keeping things kind of tight. Um, we just don't want to like talk about this movie for two and a half hours. We could, but in the interest of everyone's mental health, we're not going to wait. Jamie Pitch, remember how we did a nearly three hour episode on the Santa Claus three. Yeah, I don't see why we can't do the same thing for that. Here's my other I've just got, Uh, Santa Claus three is good for your mental health? What about that two hour episode on Flubber? What about that three episode? Wait, Santa Claus three? Is that the one with Jack Frost that you are correct? Thank god? So scared I was gonna get that wrong. Um, then of course you gotta do at least an hour and a half on that Jack Frost. Good, then your get Okay, So here's the recap, and um, just trigger warning for this recap as well as what I imagine will be a large chunk of the discussion. Trigger warning of rape and sexual assault. Okay, So we meet Cassie. That's Carrie Mulligan, who routinely does a thing where she goes to a nightclub pretending to be very drunk. She waits for a man to come over to her under the pretense of helping her. Um brody, but yeah, we warrant dating. It is Seth Cohen. When he inevitably takes her home and tries to take advantage of her, Cassie drops the act of her pretending to be drunk and teaches him a lesson. We see her do this with a few different characters throughout the movie. Um. Early on, she bumps into Ryan played by Bo Burnham, a former classmate of hers from med school, which we learned she dropped out of. He asks her out. They go on a couple of dates. He brings up Med school. He wants to know why she dropped out. He mentions a couple students that they used to be classmates with, including Madison McPhee and al Monroe. Thus begins Cassie Kathy Mulligan carrying out Cassi. Cassie Mulligan first simplus City Cathy Mulligan her carrying out a revenge plot cassying out Cassi. It's okay, we all make mistakes. Um. What had happened is that Cassie's best friend Nina was raped in med school by Al Monroe, which led to her dropping out, which led to Cassie dropping out, and which eventually led to Nina's death right which we don't fully know yet. Yeah, we don't fully know. So this revenge plot includes Cassie teaching a lesson to Madison UM, who's played by Alison Bree. She didn't and still does not believe, you know, the circumstances of what happened. She didn't believe Nino when she came to Madison for help. Cassie then teaches a lesson to the dean of the Med School Baby Connie Britten. Character actors are out in this movie also a lot of comedians or comedic actors especially, and like the guys who were played or who were cast to play like the creepy men. Yeah, I mean Sam Richardson fedor Sam Richardson, what a moment? What a moment? Indeed Coke adult Christopher Min's plassy, Oh yeah, make oven. How's a scene of like it's almost like I always wonder if I wonder if she's spoken to this. It almost seems like Emerald Vanelle like cast all these familiar feeling faces in all these roles of like people that you knew from like the two thousands and early two thousand tents, and you're like, oh, I know this person, I trust this person, and then it's like, guess what they are horrible. Um Cassie teaches a lesson to Dean Walker, who had dismissed Nina when she reported the crime to her. Um. Cassie also goes to the lawyer played by Jamie It's Al for Molina, al f Molina. His scene is two minutes long, but the impact is I'm like, was he on set for three hours, We don't know. Probably we can imagine it was maybe a day or two. Um, but his impact, you know, as always, I mean, honestly I have opinions on the way his characters treated, but but you in terms of was the performance there, the pathos he's on his knees, honestly, Okay, if there, If I had no context for what this movie is about, seeing Alfred Blena open that door and be like, I've been expecting you is a dream I've had. I want you to someday knock on his door and he opens it, and you say, Alfred, it's your day of reckoning, which just means that it's just the beginning of your and his romantic relationship. And he says, I've been expecting you, and it's like, oh my god, this is great. And then once inside it goes much differently. Yeah, of course. Anyway, so this lawyer is the one who defended al Monroe and who bullied Nina until she dropped her case. And Cassie's goal with all of these things is to get these people to reframe their thinking regarding assault and victim blaming and believing women. Meanwhile, Cassie and Ryan are getting closer and falling in love. There's a Paris Hilton stars are blind song about it, which I almost forgot existed, but we but it's important that we don't forget. And so I'm glad I was there. I mean I was glad to be reminded of it. Yeah. Then Madison comes back and gives Cassie a phone with a video on it of Nina being assaulted um something that had been sent around to the various like med school classmates. After this assault took place, Cassie discovers that her boyfriend Ryan was one of the people watching this take place. She basically blackmails him to get information on where Alman rose bachelor party is, which she goes to to enact the final piece of her revenge plot, where she confronts al Monroe for what he did to Nina and him not wanting his reputation and life to be ruined by this, he attacks and suffocates Cassie to death. He and his friend a k a. Max Greenfield get rid of the body together, but Cassie anticipated something like this might happen to her, so she had arranged for the evidence that she had to be sent to Alfred Molina's character to report it to the police, which leads to al Monroe being arrested for Cassie's murder. And that is how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss and we're back. Um, Sierra, is there anything in particular you would like to start with or we can we can kind of jump in from any which angle. Oh um m m oh. I know, maybe we could talk about like the sort of easter eggs along the way of knowing that maybe Brian was not this good guy, or just talking about the concept of like the good guy that they kind of played with in this movie. Oh my god, I that was like one of the things I liked the most about this movie was like the deconstruction and sometimes it's a little heavy handed, but like the deconstruction of the of the nice guy is not something you see very often. I don't think this is the first time we've seen it, but it's it's definitely not something that happens often in a movie that gets a ton of like acclaim and and like is given a lot of positive attention. And we've talked about this on the show a lot of how like when when um, I don't know, but I mean there's like two things that play here. The first is like when there is an assault on a woman in a movie, you know, very often it's by this like it's a stranger, it's stranger danger, or it's like someone who is like who in an average male viewer will definitely not see themselves in. And it's like the whole like twisty mustache, like pure evil villain that is like unrecognizable to anyone, or just like huge musclely guy that's like a henchman or whatever it is, right, and then and then also the fact that the woman is assaulted becomes her like the only thing about her. But what I what I like about this movie a lot is it takes a lot of different like very like specific examples that are like, oh, god, of of guys that think they're nice and have been conditioned to think they're and I but have also been conditioned to mistreat women and you know, assault them and do different degrees of abuse and manipulation and exerting their authority over women while still thinking they're nice guys. Like it's so frustrating, but it's so well written. I thought, Yeah, I have to say that the first time I watched it, I did not see Ryan like the reveal that he is an absolute piece of shit. I do not see it coming. I was like, oh, and maybe it's just because I like bo burn him a lot, But I was like, no, boh, don't be like that, which I think that just means that that character was handled really effectively. Um, because like Jamie you were saying, and we we have talked about this a lot on the show, although I think we it comes up more in our like Matreon Patreon episodes than in the main feed. But um, there is this tendency to paint characters who are abusers and predators as being so cartoonishly evil that no one could possibly recognize them or see themselves in them. So when you present a character like Ryan who is like goofy and funny and endearing, then you're not expecting him to end up being like a rape apologist. UM. So I thought that was effective the way that character was handled. But then, like you said, Sia, in terms of like those little easter eggs, those little hints to get planted along the way, I honestly like did not fully notice them until I rewatched the movie, and I was like, Oh, he's kind of stalking her. He's not taking no for an answer, he's wearing her down. And he's also like constantly anytime these guys come up, are like they're not that bad, like which I that was like her really stuck classic al right right, Like and anytime al comes up, it's like this. I don't even know if there's a word for it or a phrase for it, but it's like, oh, yeah, that's not great, but also it's not that bad, like this weird like wishy washy, Like I don't want to deal with this, I don't want to have the conversation, so let's just move on. Anytime they come up, Yeah, that that really stuck out to me. On a second watch too, it's like, oh, yeah, he doesn't like he doesn't think anything of how these these guys act. Yeah, even like him saying even the way he addresses it too, it's almost like he does kind of um, he knows something's going to come up, so he gets ahead of it, you know, he's kind of like, oh yeah, I mean, those guys can't get rid of him. It's almost like he has to apologize for just like hanging around them, so you know something's wrong, but it's like it's the way that oftentimes guys talk about their problematic friends. You know, it's like they know something's up, but there yeah, like you said, not willing to deal with it, so getting ahead of it by sort of minimizing it right away and then being like, but you know that's him or whatever. Yeah, it's it's so like, I don't know. The second watch of this movie was, I mean, you really start to not like Ryan very much. He is like and it's it's frustrating because I mean but I think like he is like as funny, like not funny because they are like being really sexually aggressive, but in terms of like the specificity and the humor of like the Adam Brody character and the mcloven character who we see earlier in the movie being kind of like these just pompous asshole guys who feel entitled to having sex with a girl that they don't think is going to remember. Um, which is you know, like I mean that very much fits into this um this narrative. But in Ryan, you see like someone who yeah, like the movie fully gets you to to root for. I mean, I fee like the bow burn of casting that was really smart because you're like, oh, he's it's both Burnham, they're falling in love. And also like you want I mean that's like one of the really like gut wrenching things about this movie. For me, it's like you you want Cassie to have that, and like you like, oh, it's so awful when it's like it kind of like on on this watch was like, oh, I guess, like ultimately I don't know exactly what the movie is saying. I don't like whatever I but but like the fact that you know, Cassie very clearly deserves, you know, to have a you know, fulfilling connection with somebody, and and then when she does become vulnerable, and when she does trust herself with someone, it turns out to like reinforce her original viewpoint of the world, which was that you shouldn't trust anybody, and that like there there is just such a wide degree of complet a city that no one is safe no matter how much you want that connection, and it's such a like it's weak. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, gets start fast, yeah, because Cassie is engaging in some pretty self destructive behaviors. She's you know, consumed by the guilt, she feels the trauma that was inflicted upon her friend. She's bearing the brunt of some of that trauma. I mean, obviously this movie has an agenda. You know, it's a condemnation of rape culture. It's it's commentary on victim blaming. Like these things are all clear, But then the takeaway, I know, I'm similarly like, well, I guess it's like, you can you can stand up and fight the abusers and the rapists and like the larger rape culture and lose. There's a good chance you'll lose. Well that, yeah, but you did get him legally apprehended, I suppose, so I saw that as a win a little bit even the justice was served, but at the expense of the lives of two women, which doesn't feel great to me, right right sure. And also it's like, once a guy like al is in custody, is he really going to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Of course not, We've seen how those trials play out. Yeah, he's a rich white guy. He's gonna be like, he will probably go to you know, probably he'll probably be incarcerated for for a while. But will he you know, learn anything or be held to held to task for real. No, that like the I mean, but also I think that it is like kind of an like when I say that, I don't know what the takeaway of the movie is, that's an unreasonable expectation coming from me, is like why didn't Emerald Fanelle, one person give me the solution to conquering rape culture? Doesn't have that? None of us fucking have that. And so I I, Sarah, like referring back to what you were saying earlier about like how unfortunately, like what happens to Cassie is like a realistic outcome. It's not cathartic, but it is you know, like it was clearly a very likely possibility to the point where she recognized that and had planned for that, which also was just like such an oblique thing that she went into this knowing like pretty good chance. I don't get out of this alive. I mean, And and maybe that is the point is like you know, it's not a one person job. It just isn't. And there's not like one brave hero who is going to kill rape culture. True, it's just I mean, yeah, it was just not I think for me, it's like it's more of just like a personal preference thing than anything else, in the sense that I think I just have such like negative, dark thoughts and feelings thanks to my depression and anxiety that I just really struggle with with movies that have such a bleak ending, and I, um, I think it's just it's like, I'm glad this movie exists. I think it does a net positive for the world, but I'm like, I don't know if this is this is not for me. I don't need to see I don't I already know this stuff. So it's like I want men to watch this. I want like I would argue that this movie is you know, is good and I'm glad that I watched it, but like it's it's it's kind of frustrating because I feel like like we are made to be the target audience of a movie like this when it's like, no, this is like love it, but like I know know, like it's like people who who don't know it should should be the you know, the target audience for that movie. But also you know, people who are not the target audience are notoriously difficult to get to watch the movie, but difficult conundrum I totally agree with you, Like I, you know, I think that for this movie to have, you know, the like to really act out the the agenda that it very clearly has, It's like, yeah, the Micklovin's of the world have to watch it, you know, and like be made uncomfortable by the behaviors they see in themselves that are reflected in these characters, and like and in the Ryans of the world, like I'm an amazing guy. I have grown as a person. But also like how do you reckon with your past? And that's like something I really appreciate about this movie. And and also like I don't dislike the bleak ending. It like makes me fucking so sad, but I don't dislike it um and I like how many for the most part, I do like in terms of like how this is kind of targeting a very particular area of rape culture too, which is also like, I don't know, I feel like anytime there's a movie like this that comes out around a large, pernicious issue that is never discussed in movies like rape culture, it's like this one movie has to speak for all of it, which is impossible. This movie is like very much in the like subcategory of like campus rape culture, and and I do appreciate the different perspectives it explores around that specific area of rape culture of you know, like in through Ryan and Madison, you have people who are viewed as like generally good people. They're not supervillains. They're navigating the world, you know, normally, but they were okay with this. They didn't do anything when they had a chance. And what is an appropriate punishment for that? What does an appropriate penance like? I don't have that answer. And then with Connie Britten, you have like these escalating crimes of Like with Connie Britten's Dean character, you have like someone who was in a position to do something about it and didn't because she wanted to be quote unquote fair and she had internalized misogyny and all this boomer lady baggage that we see in her. And then we get up to Alfred, and honestly, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm talking I just with Alfred. I feel like he gets off a little easy in this movie because he has he is at the top of the crime thing. It's like the whatever, I mean, you can feel anyway about it. I don't know how we feel about it. But it's like Cassie very much does approach anyone who negatively affected this situation as equally deserving of punishment, regardless of the severity. But Alfred Molina, I feel like it's clearly the worst of the bunch, Like he was the lawyer who got al off at the expense of aggressively pursuing to like take down Nina, Like that is such a huge trauma, and yeah, like an adult man's bullying like a teenager or a young woman who had been assaulted, Like there are levels here at play where it's like no one wants to say that they were the bystander that did nothing in the way that Madison knew and like clearly knew and did nothing. But then you have Alfa Molina who profited off of aggressively doing something, And I don't, Yeah, I guess it's I'm still kind of processing that of Like it's tough. Yeah, the movie frames that where he's so wrecked with guilt to the point where like he can't work anymore. But it's like and like begs for forgiveness. He feels bad so and then she grants him forgiveness, and I'm like, I don't really care if you feel bad. Yeah. I also don't believe that that kind of person would feel bad, sure, because it was like multiple cases that he supposedly, you know, his law firm did right right, like in the past two even when he was like, we used to have to dig through the trash, No, we just have to find a drunk photo and social It's like, so you were pre social media doing this like for decades, like Jesus, yeah, you should feel bad, you should feel really bad, right yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like a just not believing that somebody in that profession would even have a compassion or feel anything. Sorry, not not law lawyers at large, but just like in his specific case. Um. And then also I guess like, yeah, maybe her her revenge. I mean thing, it did seem like she was very forgiving overall, you know, I think she it was the miss directive like whoa, is she like doing something really really bad to these people or Okay, But then we slowly find out, oh, she just wants like regret and like that's all she's asking for. That's pretty low stakes, you know, yeah, totally. And it's like, but if you don't demonstrate that regret she's going to have you assaulted, like the I mean the like I saw some critics kind of like being like but her practices are bad, which is, you know, not untrue. But I don't even really want to touch that here. I just in general in terms of the clear I mean, they're literally there's five people like kill Bill Style who are on her list of people that she particularly thinks had a negative impact on on Nina's case. And yeah, I mean it's I guess, I don't I don't dislike it, but they they're I don't know, I don't know that Alison briefing was tricky for me on the first watch, But I think that that is also kind of personal where I don't like, that's the sort of thing where I feel like it's it is a kind of survivor to survivor situation, where like I had friends and people in my life who did not were not inclined to believe me or help me in any way when things were going on that over time I was able to find some empathy for and some forgiveness for. But that's also not everybody's situation. And then also it's like you have to keep in mind that this is not Nina enacting revenge. This is Cassie enacting revenge on behalf of Nina, which which is why I kind of I liked that at first in the like the Molly Shannon character, which is like, there's another comedian in this movie who plays Nina's mom who you know, kind of tells like Cassie, like you need to move on, like this isn't helping me, It isn't helping Nina. You're you're just kind of acting in this really self destructive way and like please move on, which is like, well, that's the point where you need to, like her mother told you to kind of you know, and I don't know. I mean, that's that's like the tragedy, right, is you don't know what Nina would want in this situation. She's not there to tell you, and so Cassie's kind of guessing what she might want. But a lot of that is enmeshed in her own guilt, in her own problems, and and so any of the revenge enacted is kind of like there's all these levels to it because it's not like this happened to me and I want revenge for it. It's like this happened to my friend. This is what I am guessing she would want, and also I would want for it. It's just like it's so messy and complicated when you get the sense that like she was just going to kind of target random men for like maybe for who knows how long, but her until until Jennifer Coolidge kicked her out of the house, until she filled up her notebook with tally marks. Yeah, She's like, well, my notebook is full, so I've my job here is done. Um. And it's not until she learns that al Monroe has moved back to the area that she starts this more targeted revenge plot to the people who she feels need to be, you know, brought to justice. And yeah, I struggled with some of that in terms of, like because the movie kind of tricks you into thinking, oh, is she like killing these men that she meets at the nightclub? Is she did she actually arrange for Madison to be assaulted so that she'll learn her lesson? Did she actually abduct Dean Walker's teenage girl to teach the d a lesson? You know? It's all really and so it's but like I just I don't know, I mean, maybe that's just like the effectiveness of that storytelling. But I was just I just found all of that kind of unsettling. What I really take issue with is there are a couple scenes where Cassie is being assaulted, and I feel like we we saw more than we needed to see that we were like kind of lingering on that. I don't know, it was just like do we do this need to be on screen? Kind of disagree with that. I I feel like that depends on who the target audience of this movie ultimately is. I think if it is, like you know, like for people who have experienced that or who have felt like that is a looming threat over them all the time, Like, yeah, showing an assault is not really responsible filmmaking choice. But I think that if you're if your target audience is like men generally who have displayed these behaviors, who need who need to see it? Like, I don't know, I mean, there's definitely a bunch of different perspectives there. I think that in terms of like a man who might see himself in kind of this goofy way of like, oh yeah, I I kind of act like mclovin and blah blah blah, and then seeing that escalation I think could actually have like an effect on like, oh shit, like have I done something like that? Is that an instinct I would have? I think that there is like it felt like it didn't feel like throw away at least it felt intentional. But I also, you know, it is like triggering as well. It's yeah, it's definitely there's like a lot of sides, especially when it comes to like killing Cassie. You know, it's like that's a long drawn out moment. I thought for sure, like I couldn't believe it. I mean, of course anytime a main character is killed. I think I was just like really waiting for like that next twist of like she she's making it. Yeah, yeah, she's gonna do the thing. And it was like maybe just I think I remember going over my head like it maybe there's somehow and then you know it just I guess gave time to be like, oh, there's just no way I guess this happened, like I don't know, but yeah, yeah, and I did feel like that, like I mean, it's again, it's like it's not a Rewodgable seed. It's like no one wants to see that scene happen over and over and over, but it did feel intentional that like, especially with a female director who I believe is a survivor as well, and you know it it's like, I don't know, it's like it's not going to be for everyone, but especially it's like I don't know if she wants me to sit with it for this viewing. Okay, it's going to feel like ship, but it's supposed to feel like ship, and it sounds like that reaction that we all had to be like, no, she can't be dead like this, like super motivated revenge character that never dies can't be dead, and like, but she is, and that is so affecting. And you see her like go down fighting and just all this stuff and I don't know, it's I didn't I didn't enjoy it, but I did. I did feel it was effective. I don't know. Let's take another quick break and just just for us this time, just this is for us, and will come back to discuss more and we're back. Where do we go from here? I think something worth discussing is, yes, this is a movie centering on like women's empowerment and condemning this larger victim blaming rape culture we live in. But it still centers a sis, middle class, able bodied white woman, And not that those stories are not worth telling, but that demographic has been who most of the stories of this nature have been focused on, not only in like movies and TV, but you know, real life news. So this just kind of adds that's just another tally mark to the that of story about that demographic. And again, not that this movie shouldn't exist because it's about a blonde, white woman, but there it just speaks to the need for other people to have their stories told. It is still a largely white cast. We have Gail, who is played by Laverne Cox, who is of course a black trans woman, but she has no I mean, she has no story outside of her relation to Cassie, which is this movie came out in one How are we still having like one of the only non white characters be a best friend we know nothing about outside of relation to protagonist kind of you know deal, Yeah, I was. I was disappointed in that, especially because Laverne Cox like really makes a meal of what she's given, Like she's so funny, and they're like, why could her character being more actively involved in this story? Why couldn't we know more about her. Could we have maybe like cut a random character who appears for one scene and Kevin Laverne Cox in arc Like, Yeah, I was that that was like one of the more disappointing parts of the movie for for me. Yeah, I think she's only I didn't like time it out exactly, but I would guess that she's only in the movie for a total of like a couple of scenes five minutes, five to seven minutes in an almost two hour movie. That was disappointing. And I mean I think that it's like in these kinds of stories, that's like you always see a story around like a social issue centered around a white character first, and that is like it may be a very good movie, it may be an effectively told movie, but it's that like I feel like we come up against movies like that quite a bit on this show, where it's like, oh, like this movie was a step forward of like this is not a commonly discussed film topic, but when it finally is able to get made and able to get seen, it's done in a way that feels very like Hollywood safe of like, well, but it's about Carrie Mulligan, so like you know, and it is still centered around like as siss White character. Yeah, I totally see what you're saying. Yeah, I wish I thought more of the like well missed opportunities but also kind of unbelievable thing would be that like if Cassie's character and Gil is supposed to be like her best new best friend in her new life, which isn't attached to her med school life, which I guess she's trying to get rid of, so like wouldn't she lup heer into into like at least something more. But their relationship is really like nothing, Like it's like what is scale think Cassie does. Yeah, Gail doesn't know much about her, yeah, like other than work there. But yeah, I mean it was very I guess kind of stock BFF coming into like if you know, which also is like a story Yeah, like you're saying, that's a missed storytelling opportunity of like this is her only I mean word to believe, her only friend, but her only friend doesn't know anything about her and they just like kind of communicated and he's like, what are the dating right now? Like cute boy, and it's like, come on you you have Laverne Cox, Like yeah, almost all of her lines have to do with Ryan, like she's another I mean, yeah, we've we've talked about this a number of times recently, where like there's a character who is just like a queer character specifically who is present to like just wonder what's going on in the romantic lives of straight people. So yeah, it's like it's so it's like a trope that is so easily identifiable that I am truly, like so frustrated and shocked when it still ends up in a mainstream, popular movie. It's like, how how many times does it need to be said? That was? Yeah, that was super super frustrating. Yeah, let's let's see. There's there's other stuff here. Oh. I did, like just in terms of I mean in general, I guess this is like a genre saying where I feel like in the revenge genre, and correct me if I'm like completely off here, because this is not like my genre, right, but like I feel like the person seeking revenge sometimes you kind of don't know that much about them, and I always find that so frustrating, and I also found that frustrating in this movie. But I think that's just the genre where it's like mad Max my daughter and then you don't know anything else about him, like kill Bill my daughter, and then you don't find out anything else about her. Taken my daughter, my daughter, Like it's very often or is it like John Wick is like my dog or something, or is that my wife? Um, it's it's my dog. But he's also said about his wife. Okay, so it's like this is this is this doctor And for Cassie it's like my best friend and you don't know much about her outside of it. I just I mean, maybe this is just like me chafing with this genre, but I'm like, but I would have liked to know a little more about her and like what her because I do like that they, you know, build out a life for her, and you get the feeling of like, oh, here her parents, they have no fucking clue what to do even though they love her, which plays out and I thought, like Cassie and Jennifer Coolidge there was so great and she is like the perfect mom who does not know what to do for generations and she she's great and and I like that this world is built out for her, and you also kind of understand for the most part of like the only I mean, it's like the only reason that Cassie is able to live this revenge life is because of like her own privilege. Like if she actually had to like work to live and didn't have the ability to stay with her parents and plan revenges, then her life might look really different. And that didn't even like hit with me remotely in the first one. I was like, Oh yeah, if she didn't have like this niceass house to hang out with with her parents and like plenty of space to conceal her secrets, her life would just look really different. That's not here nor there. I was just like, oh, wow, you just you can't just live that revenge life. You know, someone has to be bankrolling that revenge life because you can't really live that revenge life on a barista income. Speaking for personal experience right by the way her like we said her mom who is Jennifer Coolidge, and her dad who is Clancy Brown, who is most famous for being one of the Sachman in Flubber, his best known role. I didn't take that connection. And I love I really did like the parents in this movie. I feel like they really give they really that scene where her dad is like, we really miss Nina, but we really miss you and you're like, that's so I did appreciate, Like there are little things that happened in this movie that like speak to survivors experience or survivor's guilt that were like really specific in a way that was like yeah, I mean certain things. And and of course it's like it is written in a kind of campy way at times where like Carrie Mulligan, she gets quippy in some scenes. You know she's not firing off things you would know off the top of your head, but like who gives a ship? I love that um. But like the knee jerk defenses that you hear from from the Dean, the knee jerk defenses you hear from Ryan's, especially when Ryan is backed into a corner. The way he suddenly behaves is like, oh, there you are. You know, there's who you actually are. And then with her parents like you you like, I feel like something this movie does do effectively is shows that when an assault that barely affects the life of someone like al the ripple effects are huge. I mean it's it's completely altered the course of Cassie's life, but it's also like, you know, affecting her family and affecting you know, it just it ripples out so far and there's never space made for that for sure. Yeah. I think one of those things this movie does effectively that I haven't seen a lot in other kind of similar movies or movies that tackle similar subject matter, is it shows that the perpetrator of the assault is not the only villain in this scenario. There are enablers, There are cheerleaders, There are by standards who did nothing to intervene. There are authority figures who gave the abuser the benefit of the doubt. There are you know, peers who didn't believe the victim because she had a certain reputation. You know, there's there's all these people that, I think it that tend to get overlooked in other stories of this nature that I did really appreciate about this movie. Yeah, I know, one interview with the director was she actually described, I think the characters as like good people who are doing bad things, which I was really fascinated with, even like she would say Ryan or you know some of the other like characters that were like, oh, that's a bad person. Like I think that's what she was trying to convey here, which you know, as we said with the casting and stuff, did a really good job because we trusted these people and like some of these people seem like they could be your buddy, you know, um, and so yeah, I think that was well yeah, actually your buddy, our best friend. So yeah, yeah, I mean a true knock on his door, you know, we know the drill. But yeah, it is really like I think that's what was so unique because it's like, of course we know rapists equal bad, like we got that hopefully if we don't. If you don't know that, then like lost, cause who cares, don't watch movies. Um, But like you know, I think this was like more of the like, yeah, the enablers of people around that and then being like examined your own actions are people close to you, because that's going to be much more possible that you might be that person instead of the al monrope but like you might be Madison McPhee or whoever. Yeah, the Madison McFee character in particular, Like some some of my viewers are having an issue with her, but I I mean I think that that is I mean that is the case for women watching this movie of like there is that internalized misogyny and also the way that Cassie speaks with her, because they're talking about an assault that took place seven or eight years ago, but it's been a seven or eight years where the conversation around campus assault has completely changed, like from two thousand and thirteen. It's completely different now. And there was no culture of believe women then, and there was a lot of like and and and and having her present that was like, I mean, it was like painful and frustrating because it's like behaviors that you recognize in in I don't know, like being in school at that time. You're like, oh, yeah, that was absolutely like a constant conversation going on. But but but then, like we're talking about earlier, for Cassie to set the bar so low as to just be like, can you demonstrate ro more for how you behaved then, and she can't do it. She can't, And it's that is like the worst feeling in the world. If like, like you're saying, Sierra that, like Emerald was saying in an interview that like they're not bad people, but the fact that it's like if Madison is not a bad person and she is spent eight years sort of in the back of her head being like, well, you know, these things happen, and like, I mean, that's just like a very real thing that exists in the world, and it's I don't know, there's there's so much Most of the criticism around this movie I sort of received as like, you know, how is one filmmaker going to give you a definitive answer for this problem? I don't know, Like it is such an ambiguous and changing conversation and everyone feels different about it for sure. Um to your point a little earlier, Jamie, in terms of us not knowing a whole lot about Cassie, I think we do get to know her a little bit better than kind of similar characters in similar movies. But what I'm in telling let me know if this is not a fair assessment, But because there is a tendency in narratives like this for like the survivors to be predominantly defined by their trauma, I feel like we were getting traces of that, maybe not to the extent that we've seen in other stories, but with Cassie, like her whole narrative, I mean, her whole goal is like this all consuming this trauma, guilt feelings surrounding this assault that had happened to her friend. And I mean that's also kind of the nature of storytelling. It needs to be focused and specific, and like you know, we've been talking about she she has given more of an interior life than you know, again other similar characters we've seen. And a part of the movie that I like, part of the trajectory of the story that I appreciated and enjoyed, was when she goes to talk to Nina's mom, Molly Shannon, and she's like, Cassie, this is not doing anybody any good. You're acting like a child, and you need to let it go and move on. And it seems like Cassie takes this to heart and that because that's when she starts to get closer and open up a bit more with Ryan, and she like, let's what appears to be a healthy relationship into her life. And it's only until she sees he was a bystander of this assault that she decides to carry out the rest of her plot, her revenge plot. That Yeah, I see what you're saying. And I feel this way about a lot of movies. I it's I don't really feel that I don't know, for the way it struck me was like, and maybe it was not done in the best way possible that you know, whatever, No movie is perfect, but I felt like what Cassie is experiencing is like, it felt like to me, like the how how an event like this takes over, you know, has the potential that just take over your life and yourself, And not in terms of like a bad writing perspective, but in terms of, like, I think that there there are ways that these storylines are written where it's like, oh, yeah, the trauma is the defining woman like moment of this woman's life because plot plot, plot plot plot it whereas like her friend's death was the defining moment of her life. She can't move on, but we do get indications that she might want to through like this potential relationship and through her you know, talking to Molly Shannon and being like, yeah, I'm clearly like but she can't let it go. And I don't know, I've that relatable of like, you know, you're trying to get out of this toxic cycle of behavior, but you just like and you and also I like I agree with you. There is like that moment of Molly shan and she like she knows she's sucking her life up. I don't think she's just like she doesn't think that, but it's like she cannot get there, she can't let it go. And I don't know, like it's it's it's an extreme example, but I there's a part of me that's like, yeah, I get it, you know. I don't think it's bad. I don't think it's bad writing. But like I I and I see what you're saying. I just I don't know, Yeah, it's it's there's moments where I'm like Cassie's like more of a symbol than a character to me at different points where like she is this like symbol of like trying to break past this traumatic event and trying to hold people accountable and it's too much for one person. It's impossible, it's already killed one person, and it's I don't know, like I this is, I don't know what this is for the movie, but I like don't even really think of her as a character as much as like this central symbol for the harmful effect that this is and like the precedent and like what had me just like funked up for days after seeing this movie the first time was like for Nina, right of of like the only way she got justice is to have a friend willing to give up years of her life and die, and it still wasn't enough. You know. It's just like so sad and so frustrating and and not completely untrue. And yeah, so I don't know, I feel like I I think of Cassie almost as like this like symbol of like the impossibility of these of these situations for people, right, Yeah, I see that, Yeah, definitely, Yeah. I think I think also she had been described, you know again referring back to probably and interview something that I some meta dad on the show or whatever like that she kind of had already like her life had already been over by that event. And I think that I wonder like if it's kind of like the way that people, you know, when I mean the whole movie, right, it's called Promising young Woman, because I guess it's a play on you know, well, he's a promising young man. Why ruined his life? And it's like always, oh, well, life has already been ruined? Why didn't we care about that? So I feel like maybe, you know, I kind of mapped that concept onto her. It's like her life has been ruined, and it's not that she's ruining it. It's that he ruined her life and Nina's life obviously, and so then this is the result of that. Um so, you know, and it's it's obviously just awful thinking about it if you're thinking, like what would she have been, right, Like, think of the possibilities if she had if this hadn't if he hadn't done that, and then she had become a doctor and saved a bunch of other people's lives, you know. So I think that's kind of reminded me of like whenever we talk about like I mean not to bring it back to literally something too close to home, but like when people complain about, oh, my favorite dude actor or a comedian or whatever, and now I'm not going to get to see his movies anymore because we're canceling him, And it's like, well, what about the literal like several creative women typically whose lives he ruined, like we didn't get to see their work or whatever, Right, so that's already been sacrificed, apparently, and now we only worry about his future work. But I guess that's sort of like, yeah, she was a she was a symbol in it. It was almost like she wasn't she didn't get to live the character's life because that was already over. Mm hmm. Yeah. It reminded me this is like the like worst observation of my life, especially after Sarah. That was like so well put. And but I I the way I saw this movie ending originally, just as I was watching it unfold and before the second act, fucker he started going and You're like, oh no, I'm hurting this my oh no, my body. Um was I thought it was kind of good to go the way of Teeth, which is one of my favorite vigilante justice movies ever. And at the end of Teeth spoiler alert, everyone should go watch Teeth that you know, like she you know, the the the girl with teeth in her vagina. Um, she does not win, per se, right, but she does survive and she goes on to say, I'm going to enact that. I'm going to continue this vigilante of vagina crime that I've had going. And like it's not it's a very imperfect outcome. It's not like she got what she wanted, but she still is, you know, she has this mission and that's kind of what I saw happening for Cassie and throwing a wrench into that in like very sudden realism was like fuck, I mean, it's it. I don't even know, like at what point I'll be like I've fully processed that filmmaking choice, Like it's it's a lot, but but I'm yeah, that that level of realism. And then they really I mean, Emerald Finnell makes you fucking sit with it. They light her on fire and you see this character that you've built this emotional connection to to like, oh, she was so close to getting some of you know, maybe making some progress in her life, and like maybe this is the last big thing she needs to do and then she can move forward. But but like you were just saying, sire, it's it's there should be space made for for people who who do not get to have that triumphant other side of the story, because there's many people that, through all these different factors, don't get to have that. And then I became a doctor and justice was served, Like that is just not the norm, Like even in I find it, like, I mean, I know they have to wrap up the movie, but a'l getting arrested. I'm like so fucking what, what is actually going to happen to this person? Like, if this is commentary on the brock Turner case, nothing is going to happen to him. If it's commentary on the Bret Kavanaugh case, nothing is going to happen to him. But that's another movie, right, Like that's another series, that's another thing, But it's I don't even know what my point was teeth two things. I just spent the last thirty seconds trying to figure out if vigilante anagrams to vagina something at all, because you did say, like vagina vigilante instead of listening to my incredible Point's interesting, Jamie, I can multitask? I can? I can? I can anagram plus anything? I does it come out to anything? It's it's not quite there's a there's an extra A that we need, but it's let me. I'll keep working on it. Um. The other thing is I read on our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia that Emerald Finelle originally planned to have the ending of the movie be that Cassie's body, her body is disposed of and she's burned, and that's how the movie ends without any justice being served in terms of al Monroe getting arrested, but that the investors in the film did not want that bleak of an ending um, so she rewrote it to include um the ending that we get. The other ending she had considered was where apparently Cassie does not die, she appears at the wedding and then kills It's just as responsible men so Al Monroe, whoever Ryan Max Greenfield's character. I mean that that would have been the teeth ending, right, Like, that's that's ante ending that you're expecting. I mean, I do kind of like that she subverted that, and I also appreciate that it wasn't the worst thing she could think of. And the reason that she didn't go with that ending of like her just like vigilante killing everyone, was that Emerald Fanelle deemed it unrealistic, which goes back to what we've been talking about, is that it isn't super realistic and the ending that does play out is more aligned with what tends to happen in real life. A fun fact that I found that it's like so dorky, but I was like, interesting, Cassie, is that is a reference to like a Greek myth um. It's a reference to Cassandra, who is the truth teller prophet has who was never believed, And so it turns out that was a very deliberate name choice, and I was like, damn, she's good. Emerald Faneal went to a library. I really did her wikipedias in that knowledge. Is there anything else anyone else wanted to touch on? Um? I'm pretty emotionally exhausted, So I'm that's a yeah. Yeah, we covered all covered all of it, solved all of it. I think, Yeah, I think we really fixed rape culture today. Yeah, we did it. Your move promising to just kidding? Clease the ten part Amazon series, right, yeah, Like, let's make this uh more painful for everybody. I'm very glad this movie exists, but I don't want to see it again. Um, but does it pass the Bechdel test? It does? There are for It's just like, is it even relevant for this movie? But it does. Cassie talks to Gail, her mom, Nina's mom. As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism, Okay, I guess I'll give this four nipples because I agree it's I'm glad this movie exists. I do think it is a net positive. I think it's and I'm glad more movies are tackling this issue of just this kind of societal ill of rape culture, victim blaming. UM. This movie has a very clear agenda, and I think that for the most part, it handled it all pretty effectively, especially because it's it's handled a way that it is like palatable for a wide audience, which it shouldn't have to be. Movies like about this shouldn't have to be palatable, but it does help. And there are some movies that where there was a movie I saw cited, I'll post it in the in the notes of the episode, but there there are a few movies that have in the past five years I explored campus rape culture, but this is the one that took hold. And I think that it does have to do with what you're saying, Gitlin, with like it being the most palatable star studded attempt to touch on this subject because I know that some of the synopsies I was reading for movies that have come out in the past year about um campus rape culture, we're fucking brutal. Yeah, not bad, but just brutal. So yeah, I think that's helpful, especially that plus it's gotten a lot of attention, a lot of award nominations, which means more people will see it. And I'm I'm glad that is the case, and I'm glad I saw it. But as I've said, I don't want to watch this movie again. I've seen it three times now to you know, for yeah, and that I filled my quota for at least ten to twenty years. So but even so four nipples, Um, Yeah, I'm gonna honestly, I'm going to skip rating this. I'm not going to read it because I still don't I feel like I'm still processing it. But I will I will say that I am very glad this movie exists. I think it is like a big step forward in having this discussion in the mainstream. I don't agree with every choice made. We didn't even have time or the emotional energy to get into like the hyper hyper hyper specifics. But I also think that there's a lot of pressure on movies like these to be perfect and to have a message that is palatable to everybody, to have a message that is like meaningful to men who may display these behaviors and also to people who have been on the receiving end of them, Like it is such a huge burdens not the right. It's such a huge topic to take on as a filmmaker and such a huge topic to even get something like this made. And I think that this does kind of fall and and this is not a slam on Emerald Vanilla in any way. She's clearly very talented, but there is, like you know, she we see many or most directors that kind of pop out who are women recently are already established white actresses. Um. And that is that's not fortunately is not exclusively the case, but it is a clear kind of trend of like you have to have already been a successful blonde woman for a decade and then you can be creative, let you direct a movie. It's not the fault of the women, but it bums me the funk out. Um. That's neither here nor there. I'm very glad this movie exists. I think it like challenges a lot of things that are are not challenged at all. And I hope that we can see different takes on this topic. I hope that this is not the rape culture movie. It shouldn't be. There's so many different perspectives and communities and you know, all of that ship It's just sub I mean, this is like a campus rape movie with a particular view. This shouldn't even be the only campus rape movie, you know, and that makes me sad to say out loud too. But I hope, I hope that this movie's success makes room for, like Blaze of the Trail, for other filmmakers to explore similar themes and and be able to do it their way in the way. It seems like Emerald Faneal really did it her way here, which is amazing. So I am not granting nipples at all today and I and the movie is good. Yes, uh Sira final thoughts your you can award nipples or also pass you know, pass on that up to you, because yeah, I mean, I think also good for nipples is a good range for me as well for this movie at large. And I think, um, I've also was thinking about it in the sense of like sort of how rom coms, Like I had a lot of rom com tropes in it. You know, we're talking about like the kind of stock best friend and then you know, and then it flips it on its head of course, with like Ryan esthetically yes, yes, totally music soundtrack. Yeah, the way they just did all the like glances and they look up at each other and all these things. So yeah, I think it was I that was another thing that I think resonated with me as somebody who feels betrayed by all rom coms. Why were they so problematic? But I still like them, but they're always I can't watch them again because they have problems. Um. So I think that kind of was another thing that that I thought was interesting thing about it. Liked about it. Um Yeah, but yeah, I agree, there's like, definitely it feels like sometimes with these topics, these hea your movies, like it's like they almost can only tackle one thing at once, Like we're babies and we have to only do one thing, so they have to Yeah, we can only do this, and it has to be this kind of person with this kind of you know thing, and you know, Okay, so hopefully we'll move past that soon. But but yeah, similar feelings for sure. Yeah, And I mean we've had a really interesting discussion. I'm glad that there are movies like this more and more that generate these deep, thoughtful, amazing discussion. Wow, look at us, we're so amazing, we're so smart. But no, like, I appreciate that this movie challenged me in the ways that it did, so kudos to the movie for that. Sierra, thank you so much for joining us in this discussion. Thank you for having me. Oh so you know we dove right in, you know. So I'm glad. I feel very honored to be here. Yeah, I feel like, let's like, um for a fun decompress. How how have you been house? How things? You know? Yeah, everything's light and fun. Um, so you got that side of me. Um, But yes, for sure, you know, I'll come back for a for a light one some day. But it was good to kind of have this conversation because this movie has kind of been you know, it's a quarantine time. I only got to see it in my lonesome and like stew on it in my own head and maybe read a few articles. But it's good to talk it over with real humans who are also very thoughtful about it. And um, even though it is very heavy and probably will you know, require some I have a little of a little white tea after this, you know, too little self care. Yeah, I'm going to take a bath. Yeah, please take take the take then night yeah, yeah, you guys, let's kick up your feet. Yeah, there you go. Thank you so much. And where where can we where can we find you online? Where can our followers come and come and find you? It's actually really scary. Yeah what where can they duct me? Please do not go and find her, but to follow on the on the yeah, in the digital sense. Um, yeah, thanks. I am on Instagram at Sierra Coto s I E R R A K A t O W Twitter, same thing, that's just my name. And I have a podcast called stay pod Sitive that I have kind of lapsed out a little bit, but you know it exists. There are episodes. Would love to have you both on someday if you would be so open to it. It's you know, it's very um, it's more light, I would say, then promise young woman. But but you know, you know, we talk about just how people keep their heads up in tougher time. Stuff like that. Um. And I am on I'm on TikTok same name as well. I mean I don't do that much, but I love to watch them. That's a videos. Um. Yeah, all that those are the main things. Excellent. Thank you Thank you again for coming on, comeback anytime, you know, if there's a Christmas movie, for example, that you want to talk to us about four hours where four for our podcast, Let's do it? Hell yeah. Um. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at pectel Cast. You can check out our Matreon at patreon dot com slash s pectel Cast, which is five dollars a month. It gets you two bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog. You know, take a bath, take a nap, you're gonna be You're gonna be fine, drink a tea, you know, and and really practice self care now and always I want. I watched um, the first half hour of My Big Fat Greek Wedding after finishing Promising Young Woman last night because I'm like, we just need a palate lenser, which yeah, it's good, Yeah indeed, Okay, bye bye