Julianna Margulies on #MeToo, Trump, and “Dietland”

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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi, Katie. Well, there's so much talk lately about it being the golden age of television. I think it really is, and I would argue that our guest today, Julianna Margulis, was ahead of that curve. She was winning over TV audiences well before the small screen became almost more desirable, Brian than the big screen. Yeah. Back in the early nineties, when Julianna was in her twenties, of course, she landed the role of nurse Carol Hathaway on the runaway hit Shower, a nurse with a complicated romance with George Clooney's character. I might add, hubba, hubba, I'm scared to death of losing you. Don't be. I'm so sorry, tug don't be. I love you. I love you too. I'm so jealous, but let me continue you. Julianna is just as well known and perhaps more well known, at least in recent years, for her role on The Good Wife. She won critical acclaim and a boatload of awards for her seven seasons playing Alicia Floric until she said bye, Alicia. And I know you and I are both huge fans of that show. Katie. We should note that The Good Wife came out on the heels of the two thousand eight prostitution scandal that forced Elliot Spitzer out of office as Governor of New York, and now Julianna is set to start at another of the moment role on Amcy's diet Land, which is a show seemingly designed from the ME two era that we're in, even though it was optioned before the Harvey Weinstein story broke. What can we say, Julianna has impeccable timing and for the first time I think in her career, she is playing a massive bitch. So in today's episode, we talked with Julianna about her iconic roles, her new show diet Land, and her own experiences with sexual harassment in Hollywood. I feel like we have to talk about this historic moment we're in. I mean, it is quite remarkable to think about what the world was like even six months ago, Julianna, and how much it's changed with this reckoning about sexual harassment, misconduct and the lack of opportunities. I think and pay in equity all kinds of things. And tell me about the changes you're scene or how it's affecting your life as an actor. Um, it's pretty empowering. Um. First and foremost, what's important I think about all of this is not to pit women against men. This isn't about women against bad guys. This is about people who abuse power. And I think what's important to remember is that there's also women who abuse their power. And so I don't for me this whole movement. I feel like this has been bubbling under the surface four years, centuries probably, um, and it took a few really strong, brave voices to say this isn't right, and this is what happened to me in order for the conversation to start. And it's just the beginning. I think we have a really long way to go, and I think we're now feeling that we're free to talk about it. And what was interesting to me is when it all started happening and you started hearing these stories for my own self, I realized how many years I had just brushed things under the carpet, and how many things I had sort of glossed over and almost almost selectively forgotten. And that was remarkable to me. I mean, someone once said to me a few years ago, you're such a pants girl. Why do you always wear pants, and I am I like jeans. I always wear jeans. I would never think to throw on a skirt. And when all of this started, remembered distinctly, Oh, when I was twenty three and running off to an audition on St. I lived in Brooklyn, and I was wearing a cute little mini skirt with some ballet flats, and I thought I looked really great for the audition. And I was running up the stairs at the ft stop on Street and there was a group of guys sitting on this ledge above the stairs, and I was taking the stairs two at a time so I wouldn't be late. And I don't know how he did it, but one of the guys jumped down and got underneath me, so my legs were sort of spread across him, and he looked up my skirt and all the guys laughed, and it was this horrific, sort of just humiliating moment, so invasive to say, it was so invasive, and I had forgotten about that. And I remember saying to myself when I jumped over him and ran as fast as I could, I will never wear a skirt like this again. I will never be put in this position. Because it was so mortifying and humiliating. That's laughing at me, you know, as as you were taught telling that story. I just recalled being at a high school football game and walking, you know, toward the bleachers, and I remember, you know, it was crowded, and some guy passed me and he stuck his hand in my crotch and just kind of grabbed me. And I remember feeling so upset and discombobulated. But of course, you know, I was probably fifteen or sixteen years old. I remember that day like it was yesterday, and I think, yeah, of course, you just it's you're so ashamed and embarrassed and mortified. But you know, I don't know. It's weird. But you know, when when you said you don't you hope this doesn't pit women against men, Brian, I'm curious, do you think it has in a way as as a man here in this group. Ah, I don't think it should, But do you think it has? I think some men have perceived it that way as a kind of anti men's movement, And the complaint I hear the most from reasonable men I know, is that there's no distinction between sort of everyday bad behavior and Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby at the other extreme, that basically there's a death penalty for anyone who's even accused of anyone in terms of their careers, and that I and I think that's true, and I and I don't blame them for feeling that way. Um, I think it's important to talk about it mindfully and to understand that rape and sexual abuse and sexual assault is very different. Listen, I've grown up on set since I was twenty three years old, right, I mean me and Josh Charles used to joke and it was funny, and they yes, it was sexual and fun I mean I was doing it too because I felt safe with him and we're friends, and you know, we we did stuff like that all the time. There's a difference between us doing that and someone coming up to you and threatening you. It's very, very different to say, hey, you look hot today, right, you look really great in that dress, so your legs look beautiful in that skirt, which I think is creepy, but it's still not you know, the extreme Brian just described. And men shouldn't, you know, feel threatened if they tell a woman she's beautiful, that's lovely. I I that puts you in a good mood, you know. But but what it should do is teach someone how to speak and how to act towards women that isn't threatening and isn't abusive. But what do we do about this? What Brian brought up, this lack of sort of gradations of transgressions, if you will, to use a lot of words with a lot of keys in them. But you know, saying that, you know, because it seems to me that I guess with any big movement, it feels the pendulum swings pretty far. And it felt has felt for the longest time that you couldn't say we'll wait a second, because you would be pilloried to say hold on. You know, there's a little bit of a difference here. Yes it's unacceptable, but it's not X, Y or Z. But I think Matt Damon tried to do that, actually quite eloquently damonized. He got damonized, and I I didn't think that was right. I understood what he was saying. He was completely compassionate about what was going on with people who are raping, But it's not the same as what's going on with people who you know, are joking around on a set and we have to. We can't. You have to differentiate between what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And I think we have. The dialogue has been opened, right finally after all these years. But I think what happened, and the reason the pendulum swung so far, was that women. It's been bubbling under the surface, and this tiny little opening happened and and we all just ran out of that one ripped seam. I described it as a dormant volcano that erupted. That's right, with with sound and fury. That's much more eloquently I could ever say. But you know what I mean, it's sort of like this, as you said, there was this little fissure and suddenly it was like boom, right, And that's what happened. You know. It's it's when you're when you're suppressing because it's toxic. So all these things I started remembering. I mean, I talked about this Steven Seagal experience, which when I would tell it to my friends before the Me Too movement, it was a joke. And then when the Me Too movement happened, I realized I was just protecting myself because I was in a hotel room by myself, no one knew where I was with a six ft four black belt in whatever with a gun. He had a gun. Tell us a little bit about that situation for people who didn't hear it. Well, I mean, nothing happened to me, thank god, But he told you to meet him. Well, here's the thing, so he didn't know. The casting director did. And this is a woman who was a woman. UM called me at my home at ten o'clock at night. I had, I had auditioned three times and been put on tape for Out for Justice and I was, you know, a brand new, out of just out of college actress. And she called me and said, Steven Seagal thinks it would be a great idea if you came to his hotel room to go over the scene for tomorrow because the next day was the last and final callback. And I said, you know, it's ten o'clock at night. I live in Brooklyn, and I don't I can't afford a cab and that's crazy. I'm not going to do that. That's silly. And she said, oh, don't be silly, just get a car. Service will reimburse you. I'm here. And when I heard her say I'm here, I thought oh this is okay, I mean the casting director and she's a woman, so I'll go and do the scene. I wanted the job. I want to get my sag card. I want also probably didn't want to seem difficult, Yeah, difficult or prissy or something right, well, and I was I really wanted the job. I mean I was away three years old, so I did. I called a car service and I and I went to the Pierre Hotel and I went up to the suite I was told to go to. And when the door opened, it was Segal who opened the door, and there was no one out there but him and he I said, where is she? And he said, um, oh, she had to go home, um something about her kids, whatever it was. And it wasn't until that moment. And he pointed to the couch. He said, sit over there, and he pointed to this specific cushion on the couch. He wanted me to sit on this specific place. So I walked in and I sat down, and I jumped right back up because there was something very uncomfortable and hard in the couch and I couldn't understand if it was a spring or something. And he laughed and he said, oh, sorry, that must have been my gun. And he lifted up the cushion and he took out his gun. And I had never seen a gun in my life, not up close. Bizarre. And I said, oh my god. I started getting sweaty. And he said, oh, it's just for the crazy, all the crazies that are out there. I have to protect myself. But he had it in his hand, and then he said, it's been a really long day. I'd like to go over the scene in the bedroom. UM, at which point my brain just started. Uh. I started getting so angry at myself because I I just my inner dialogue was, you stupid idiot. How could you have done this? No one knows where you are, and you're in a hotel room alone with this guy and he's got a gun. How stupid You're stupid. I was just chastising myself and I um, he called himself. I think a lot of women will probably know this story because he's apparently done it to a lot of women. But he told me he was a healer and he wanted to heal me. UM. And he looked at my palm and read my palm. He told me he could read palms. And he told me I had really weak kidneys. Um at that point, to be honest, as a New York girl, I kind of started laughing inside, like this guy's pathetic and what does he think I'm buying this line of crap that's hot? Um? And I and and I said, thank you for telling me that, and I somehow I really did uh. I just started talking a lot out of nerves and said, you know, I want to be fresh for tomorrow. And it's so nice meeting and Mr Scott and I squirmed my way out of there. He did not. Um, here's where I don't understand my where I where I got the balls to do this. I left, and I was sweating and panicking. My heart was pounding, and I realized I had no money to get home and it was midnight and he hadn't reimbursed me for my cab fair. I went back and I knocked on the door and I said, and he smirked, and I think he thought I was coming back, like, oh, she you know, she she got smart. And I stayed on the other side of the door and I held my hand out and I said, um, I was told I get reimbursed from my cab fare. It was it cost me fifteen dollars to get here, and I need cat fare to get home, and he just laughed and put put money in my hand. I didn't look down. I ran to the elevator, went down, and it was a hundred dollar bill. And I couldn't believe it. I thought, if I just survived Steven Seagal and a gun in a hotel room by myself, I can handle a subway back to Brooklyn, and I've paid off my American Express card. What happened with the role? So obviously, So here's the thing. And it's so interesting because I've been writing about it now with this book that I'm doing. But um, I went in the next day. I went in and I got the part, and I got my sad card. And when they flew me out to l A and my first day on the set, I said to the hair and makeup people, I've never been on a set before. I had never been in a makeup and hair room. I mean, this was brand new. And I said to everyone in there, I know you don't know me, but I really appreciate it. If no one would ever let me be in the room alone with him, I always need someone near me because I was. I was scared um and whenevery whenever someone when they'd say, okay, we have a ten minute break and he would linger on set, I'd run out with everyone else. I just made sure to stay with the pack. Um. And yes, I got my sad card and I got a bigger agent from that job, and my career started. Not because of that job, please, I played a hooker with a heart of gold. But um truly not one of my best acting moments, I'm sure, but it got me to the next level I needed to get to, and it got me in the Screen Actors Union. And I have looked back at that and thought, what would my grandmother have thought of me doing that? My grandmother was a suffoget. My grandmother was one of the first women to ever graduate NY law School. She took the bar exam in from the New York Bar Association, but she wasn't allowed to join the club, so she started the Women's Bar Association of the Bronx. My grandmother was just one of those trailblazers. And I thought, I guess I had to do what I had to do. And I didn't get raped, and I didn't get sexually assaulted, and I did it, but if it was today, of course I wouldn't have. But I'm also in a position where I can walk away from a job and not worry. And I couldn't then and I didn't know any better, and I I think that those days are over. And that's what makes me happy about this movement is that every agent, casting director, manager, who producer, they know there is no need to ever be alone in a room with a director, a producer, or the star of a movie. There's no need and it never should happen. And then you're never putting that position to begin with. But it kept her. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was gonna say, Julianna. I almost called you Alicia. Actually, I confess you can call me Alicia. I'm not going to do that. You mentioned agents, and there have been so many stories about agents and agencies being aware of this abuse and actually being complicit in it. Has there been enough of a reckoning there? Have you discussed this with your own agent and your own agency. I haven't discussed it with them. I'm with a different agent now that I was back then, and I'm with a woman. But I'll tell you this. My publicist, Carrie Ross wrote a beautiful peace and variety about how all of the people out there are complicit, including her, that she had clients that she knew, she knew what happened to me. When I was asked to go to Harvey Weinstein's hotel room, I just because of the Steven Seagull experience, I wouldn't go there alone. And I said that, Um, I was twenty eight and I was on the r and I could walk away from the job. I already had a day job, I was already established in the business. And so when I was asked to go to Harvey's hotel room after a screen test that I did in London, UM, the woman with me said, Harvey wants to meet you, and I'm going to drop you off at the hotel at the Peninsula, same exact thing is what all these girls are talking about, women are talking about. And I said that's fine, but I'm not going in there alone. And she said, don't be silly, and she started sweating, like what do you mean? And I said, if he wants to meet me, he'll meet me with you, or I don't go in. And she ended up coming with me. UM and he saw her behind me and he was in a bathrobe and there was I saw in the background, there was candles, there was a dinner. Um, he was in a bathrobe. It was seven o'clock at night. The bathrobe wrong with I know, but but I remember turning around over my shoulder and seeing him look at her, and she had her shoulder. She was in a shrug position like I got what can I tell you? And he, you know, shut the door and said great audition. Of course I didn't get the part. Fine with me. I'd rather not get it, um, if that's what it costs. But I was in a position to do that, and I had known better because I had already it had already happened to me with Steven Seagal, although I got out of that one unscathed. But I truly do think that when you're desperate for a job and you're excited and you want to act, and here's someone offering you something, you don't think that that's going to happen, but now you will. And so hopefully now that conversation will protect the next generation of actors coming up. I am interested in sort of the mentality of these agents, publicists, etcetera. Was it just kind of the way things were done, and it was an extension of the you know, casting couch that existed in Hollywood for so many years. Truthfully, I don't think. I don't think that the agents knew that there was rape going on. I really, I mean, at least the people I've encountered. I think it was the way it is so dress up pretty. I mean I remember when I was a flirt if you have to, Yeah, when I was going to meet Joel Silver to do ghost Ship, I was told to get in a sexy outfit and go to his house on a Saturday by myself. Why. Very famous Hollywood producer For those who don't, Yeah, he's a very famous Hollywood producer. And I remember and did it because my agents told me to do it. And, um, you know, this could be a huge thing. You're leading a Warner Brother movie. Why why do I need to dress up on it and go to his house by myself? So it was so uncomfortable? Did you go? I went? And I was so uncomfortable, And you know, what was it for him to look me over? Also, if I may, Harvey Weinstein and Joel Silver kind of cut from the same cloth and they could be cousins. Um who are you to sit there and look at me? What what am I am? I on a meat rack? But at the time, when you have a whole industry behind you saying, oh, you gotta go to his house, dress up nice, you just sort of did it. And nowadays that wouldn't happen. And I know that agents would never let that happen. Now, can we hold everyone to account? I don't know. UM? Should we? Probably? UM? Can we? I don't. I don't know how that works, you know, because in a certain way, I look at my own actions. Um, would you say you were complicit in some ways? Well, I don't. I don't feel complicit because I told everyone what happened with Harvey and with Steven Seagal. I told my agents I don't I'm not going to get that screen. You know. I know I was down to the last two girls, but I ain't going to get that movie because I didn't go in his hotel room. And there's a laugh. So it wasn't like I was not telling them that that was going on. Um. But also, nothing terrible happened to me, So I can't, Um, I can't speak to that because I wasn't sexually assaulted. I just was uncomfortable. Let me ask you a kind of incendiary question that I think some people have wondered. Do you think there are women who have used their sexuality and willingly engaged in that kind of relationship in order to advance their careers? You know, I can't speak on that because I don't know any but I'm sure it exists. Um. And if you're comfortable with that, and that's what you choose to do with your body and your career, then that's your choice. Um. But I I don't know enough to speak on it. I don't know anyone who's done it. I can't imagine. I mean, my you know, listen, when you were a waitress of bartender and a coach check girl and stuffing envelopes at a real estate office, um, of real estate broker's office. I had the luxury of always saying I would rather clean toilets than sleep with Harvey Weinstein to get a job like you know, and I and I walked that walk because I would. But um, but it's also because I I still was happy doing those jobs. I still had a good life, you know. And you had a strong sense of self. I had a strong sense of self, and I was brought up, you know, with a with a father who you know would say to me, if a man ever touches you in the wrong way, you need him in the balls and run as fast as you can. You know. There was no sort of just stay in the room. I wasn't not to say that any of these women had the choice, because I think these men are massive and um, overpowering and overwhelming and um, I feel like they should all be put on an island with a few others. But I won't name names, but go on, the idea that women have to exercise self defense in order to pursue a career is so outrageous, it's sickening and it's barbaric. We're going to talk more about your current projects and a little bit about e Er and The Good Wife. We're big fans, really big, big, big fans. But we'll do that right after this, and now back to Julie Anna Margali's Julianna. The one person who seems to have escaped accountability for his actions toward women is the president United States. At least sixteen women have accused Donald Trump of inappropriate behavior, from harassment to assault. So what message does that send to men and women everywhere the wrong message. I mean, it's it's also grotesque. It's hard to even start. Where do you start? Um, I'll tell you this. When you're on a set, the mood and the feeling on the set is all created by number one on the call sheet. Whoever's that number one on the call sheet is how the set is run. So if that person is kind and generous and caring and wants to make sure everyone is doing okay, it's a happy set. When that person is a actor who's brooding or has a drinking problem or whatever it is, and is miserable, it's a miserable set. And I think that that's what's happened to our government. The White House is a miserable set. Yeah, well, I mean yeah, it's obvious. And this isn't a right or left um thing. This is fact um. It is toxic. It's a toxic environment. And what's making it the most, I mean, this is a man who rates people. When he was running for president, he said Heidi Klum wasn't a ten who who rates people. It blows my mind where we are in the gutter. Um, it's it's cross, it's low, it's disgusting and um, you know, I always go back to O. J. Simpson. He was not found guilty, but where did he end up in jail? That's where he spent the better part of the last on the ears. Why Because in the end, you are who you are. And I do feel like the only sort of bright light at the end of the tunnel here is no one gets away with it. Uh, it just can't. It can't happen. And I think this verdict with Cosby that just happened a couple of weeks ago, that's the tippings of the scales right there. And I think that women are finally being heard. And I'm hoping to God that uh, this just stops and he gets put away. He's he's um, he's crazy and and he's a misogynist and he's a racist, and I can't believe he's in the White House. That's how I feel. Brian, did that answer your question and answered my question? You know, Katie and I were struck by one other thing you said, which is there are plenty of horrible women out there in the context of all of this. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean I think men are geting this wrap for being for abusing power. But then look at look at Betsy Devoce, look at Rebecca Mercer, look at these women there, they all are in power and they're abusing it and using it. So my point was just to say to not be so quick to jump on women are great, men are awful, to say, no, there's there's responsible, wonderful people, um, and there's awful people who abuse power. So I just I just was trying to make a point that it's not just men who abuse power, but it's women also. But a lot of people have said the way to solve this, or at least a partial solution, is to put more women in leadership positions, to equal the playing field, to open more doors. And what just happened in Pennsylvania was spectacular. Yes, look, I have a great line in my show in the in the third episode of diet Land where my character says men would rather destroy the world than let women rule it. And there is a tremendous truth to that if you look at the last election. But the truth is women are nurturing by nature, were nurturers, and we can multitask, right, that's what we do. Um, whether you have kids or not, we are just better at it. It doesn't I'm not pitting anyone against each other. It's just nature. Um. And I think that women were just much more empathetic to the human condition because we suffer a lot more. And when I say that, I mean, it's so barbaric that thirteen white men were in charge of women's health. Um. It's an affront to every woman on this planet. Um that these men who have never had a period, cramp, or a hot flash, or a pregnancy or any of the things that we women go through in our daily lives, that they are in charge of our bodies. This Me Too movement, it should also be hand in hand with the I'm labeling it here the fed up movement. We are fed up. I don't want someone to tell me what I can or can't do with my body. I don't want anyone to take away my rights as a woman. I want equal pay. I'm not saying I'm better than I'm saying I'm equal to and that's all. That's what it should be. And in that way, Katie, to get around back to your question, that was a very long that's a way around. But I was only saying that about women because in terms of there's bad women out there to who abuse power, because there are, but there's great women out there, and there's women out there who have really, as I say, do it all backwards and in high heels, just like Ginger Rogers, and that makes them pretty dynamic, um and capable. Are you optimistic? I mean if you had to wave a magic wand and come up with concrete solutions to make things better, not only for women in Hollywood, but just women in all industries. Have you thought about that, some of the concrete steps that could be taken. Yeah, so I have. And I know there are days that feel really defeatist. You know, it's hard to pick up. I used to read the New York Times every morning. You know, I don't know, because it ruins my day. But I heard Oprah talking um and she said, I choose not to give negativity any power because it's so toxic and it doesn't do any good. And I've really since I heard her say that, I've been trying to live that way, and so yes, I do feel hopeful. As you said, before the pendulum swings, even Barack Obama said that, right, he said, well, he was trying to calm us all down, and he said, listen, pendulum swing at zigs and its eggs. And I think we all need to be mindful of that, and we need to be careful not to just attack Trump or his supporters. I mean, as a New Yorker truly, I actually feel I feel kind of bad for some of his supporters because we all know as New Yorkers he's a con man. Like we know that it was. He's a joke in this city. He always has been. Even when I was a waitress, I knew that we'd all roll our eyes. Oh here, here I come. You know. He but his supporters are buying it all and they haven't grown up with him the way we have, you know. And I and so I almost feel I don't. I don't want to pit them against us. I want us all to be together in the same It's not a Kumbaya moment. I'm not. I'm not trying to be a crunchy granola. I'm trying to say, guys, we all live on the same planet and breathe the same air. So let's get on the same page. And it's good to have a right and the left. It's good to keep things right. We need to checks and balances. But dear God, this has gone on too long. I want to move on to please different topic because we could about we talk about hair or something. Yeah, yeah, well, I don't know. We'll talk about diets in a minute. You mentioned your dad a couple of times, and I read a little bit about your upbringing, um, and about your parents. Can you tell us about them and growing up in three different countries which I didn't know about you, So, I says why I became an actress because I was always trying to be like that person in that country, you know. So it's easier just to put on some trying to blend in. Yeah, yeah, um, so you want me to talk about that? Sorry? What about your parents and sort of about growing up in your childhood? Because I didn't know about this either, I know, and we've known each other so long, I know. Um, so I come from so My father, Paul Margulis, was a copywriter in advertising, and he met my mother when she was in the original production of My Fair Lady. She was my mother was a ballerina with a BT and then went on to do Broadway and they met on a blind date and they've sort of had a very quick shotgun wedding. Um. And they moved to Israel, where my sister was born. UM. And then they came back here and had my my middle sister here in New York City. And then I was born in Spring Valley, New York. And shortly after I was born, they divorced. I'm not going to go into the whole thing. I'm just giving you sort of that when they divorced, well, they separated when I was before I was a year old, and my father went and took a job to open a new to open an advertising agency for Wells rich Green in Paris, and my mother said, hey, let's keep the kids and the family close enough. So of course you wanted moved. Who doesn't want to move to Paris? So we lived in Paris. My dad lived on the right bank and we lived on the left bank. So exotic. It sounds exotic, doesn't it. I wish you know. The backdrop to it was my mother. My mother was a tremendous beauty and she you know, she came out of uh this conformed way you're supposed to be as a woman and found herself. So there were a lot of boyfriends, There was a lot of Jeanjean, Jean Jacques, Sean Claude. They were. I mean, there's some great stories. Um I have um waking up in our apartment in Paris and all our furniture is gone because she went home with the Harry Krishna guy, and um, they thought the furniture should be somewhere else. Um, but there there. It was a crazy um bohemian childhood. And did you always know you wanted to be an actress? No? I actually truly thought I should be a lawyer, really like Alicia. Yeah. You know, Um, my grandmother, my paternal grandmother, was this this suffragette, and I grew up with that kind of identity. I thought I'm gonna be like her. I'm going to be a lawyer. Um, I wanted to do something. She's to used this word prestigious all the time, even when I was a CoA check girl. She's like, it's a prestigious venue, Like if everything had to be prestigious anyways, So funny, I thought I'm going to be a lawyer like grandma Henrietta. And I got to college and realized I hate reading contracts. I hate reading the fine print. There's nothing about it that interested me. Except justice. But you you went to Sarah Lawrence and you majored in art history, well, art history and English, um, but really at Sarah Lawrence, who had thirds. Uh, you've got a Bachelor of Arts degree. So I had such a heavy academic schedule when I got there, I thought one of my third should be theater because I grew up so one of the things both my parents agreed on was we never had a television in the house. So I grew up. We grew up writing plays. You know. Our our after dinner entertainment was charades or putting on a play or do maybe reading or or reading. Absolutely reading, I mean that was essential, but but we were always acting for to entertain ourselves. So I took an acting third at Sarah Lawrence and my I got cast in a play my freshman year, and I just remember that feeling because I had traveled so much and never have sort of had a permanent home. My first night on stage, I just remember thinking the lights went up, and I I mean I could I tear up when I think about it, but I just felt like I was home. That feeling, that calling. Yeah, So that's that's when I realized, you know what I'm gonna see if this works, but I can always fall back Earlier in your career, though, I know that you had trouble being cast in roles because you're so beautiful, but your looks are are unconventional, or were at the time, right, I mean, I I don't think they are. I mean, and I think that certainly there's such a diversity of what we think of as beautiful now I think it's it's widened so much. But you know, I remember watching you as Carol Hathaway, and you were my favorite character on e Er. But I also loved the fact that you were so cool looking and no not really, and I loved sort of your dark eyebrows and your wavy, you know, curly there at the time, and you just didn't look like the typical ingenue on television. How how difficult was that early in your career And not that difficult obviously, you know, but it was, I mean, it was. It was so odd to me because I was told by casting directors, you know, listen, you're never gonna do television. Uh, you're just what are you? And I actually got cast in two different McDonald's commercials as the girl who stood in between the African American and the blonde because they didn't know if I was. I was asked all the time, are you part Black? Are you Latino? Are you Greek? And I was like, I'm Jewish. I'm just a Jewish girl. I yess, I don't know, but I was glad I was told to go to Europe that I was told I'd have a better chance UM in Europe UM And then you know, thank god, my character tested high because of the way the director on ther shot the pilot was that John Wills, that the director was the producer, the director was Rod Holcombe, and the way he shot Carol Hathaway coming in with an overdose UM and pronounced dead through George Clooney's eyes. Apparently in test screenings the audience went nuts because they cared for George so much George's character Doug Ross that suddenly my character got elevated. And because of the way Rod shot that, Steven Spielberg apparently said we can't kill her off. And I got a permanent gig. That's how you showed up on that show. I forgot that, yeah, because I die. I actually was only hired as a guest star there, Like you got this part, but you die in the pilot. And I said, that's fine. I'm not an l A girl. I'll go back to New York. And then I got back to New York. And thank god George, I mean, I owe him a lot because he left a message on my I was about to take another job. He left a message on my machine, remember when we used to have answer, And he said, hey, uh, just heard through the grapevine your character tested well. I don't know if it's a real thing or not, but don't take another job if you can. And I thought, oh my god, you know and then how long were you on that show? On your six years? Six years? Yeah? Well, and the way you left that show raised a lot of eyebrows because as I remember it, you were offered something like twenty seven million dollars plus a big chunk of change back in the day. And still isn't no, no, no, of course, but I think you know, you hear these crazy, crazy figures now. But I mean when you think about that was in what nineteen, that was two thousand, two thousand, that was two thousand, yeah, And I read it was a question that your dad asked that motivated you to to move On at that time. Yeah, he was instrumental in helping me. I knew, listen, I had a year of work lined up, My contract was up, and I had told Robbie Bates, John Robbie Bates, that he had given me this manuscript of a new play he had written with me in mind. And I was such a huge fan. I had done one of his plays, Substance of Fire, regionally and at the Oslo Theater in Florida, and um, he said, I wrote this with you in mind. Would you want to do it? And I said when? And he said next year. I said, oh my god, my contract is up then, and I had this play to go to and I had this um mini series, The Miss of Avalon, that Julia Dell was directing. I mean, it wasn't like I was thinking I was going to be some big movie star. I was going off to do off Broadway for two hundred and fifty dollars a week. But I was thirty two and I had money in the bank, and I was just at that place in my life where I thought, isn't this what we've I've dreamed of? And everyone said I was crazy? I am and everyone um, And I called my Dad, and I said, I don't know what to do. I want to go home. I was also really homesick for New York. Um, and he said, when is enough enough? And if you got hit by a bus tomorrow and you were waiting for two years of your life to go by to get rich, what would your last thought be that you wasted that time on this earth living your life? And that changed a lot for me, and I thought, yeah, I don't want to regret. I want to move forward. So I didn't know there would be so much backlash because I didn't realize that it was anyone's business. Um. I'm just grateful there wasn't social media then the way it is now, because I'm sure. But I got a lot of backlash for that, But you know what its shaped to who I've become, And it was one of the best things I could have ever spoken about. I did the two thousand ten commencement speech to Sarah Lawrence and for the first time publicly, I spoke about it, and I spoke about it because my life turned out pretty great because of that decision. You know, I came back to New York. I had three years to just breathe and do all these things I had been wanting to do, and I met the love of my life, and I got married and I had a baby, and then I got this show called The Good One. I mean, come on, I can't you know? So I wanted to impress upon those students how important your own decision is for yourself, not for monetary reasons, and never to never to do it for someone else's benefit, but to do it for yourself and stay true to who you are. That's a good message. I know you want to ask about The Good Wife, Ryan, go ahead, I do. I'm a big Good Wife fan. And for the record, than ask away. It lasted seven seasons. It was a huge critical and commercial success. Um. Do you think there was a message in that show? I mean, it seems very appropriate to this particular moment, because it was inspired by, you know, a powerful man behaving badly in that case giving we called it. Yeah, But I mean, is there anything you wanted those of us who were big fans the show to to take away from the show or to learn from the show. Um. I loved playing Alicia Floriic. I miss her lines, I miss talking like her. And one of the things I just think Robert and Michelle King did such a a brilliant job portraying, um this woman. Um, I'll tell you what I got to take away from it rather than what I was hoping, because it was better than what I could have hoped for, which is since I've been freed, because I really didn't have a life for seven years. You know, it was ten months out of the year of just NonStop. And so these past couple of years I've been able to take the subways and walk on the streets and drop off my dry clean, be a normal person and travel and I cannot tell you how many young women it just warms my heart told me they are in law school because of Alicia Floric and that they want to change the world. And that makes me so happy to know that if I know, I couldn't read the Fine Friend, so I couldn't change the world. But maybe I helped in my little actor way by inspiring the brains that can and these women that have gone to law school and that do want to change the world and help other people. So for me, I feel like what people walked away with was a complicated, accomplished, flawed woman. It's okay to be a flawed woman. That's who we are. It makes us interesting. But that first and foremost she was trying to find justice in the world and yet always constantly questioning herself. And that's what we should always do, right I think we should always be questioning our motives and our our true selves. And I feel like she did that. Let's take a trip down memory lane because we have a clip of Alicia uh from season six of The Good Wife when she finds out spoiler alert everyone that her husband has cheated on her yet again. Let's listen. I'm not sleeping with her now, I was pregnant like Grace. Are you sleeping with her? And then Aelicia, listen to me. I will do nothing to embarrass you. These weren't taken by me. You think I give a crap enough to follow you. They were taken by another campaign. They're going to use this against me and you, and I won't stand beside you, not again, keep not in a million years. So don't listen to me. Keep blind me. I don't care, but do listen to your political instincts. You want to be re elected, you want me to be elected, then zip up your pants, shut your mouth, and stop banging The health that's right right on my my standing for all those years. L her name is Alice. She's awesome. She for Christmas that year had that and had that embroidered on a blanket. Zip up your pants, Shut shut your mouth is something the health and I use it to cuddle myself with sometimes. Yeah, so funny. Well, you know now you have a new show after saying bye, Alicia, you have a new show called diet Land on AMC which is so interesting and so original and I'm curious. You must have had a million off first, Julianna, what was it about this show that made you think, Okay, I'm diving into this one. Um, there were many factors. So I needed to take a year off because I was mentally and physically just exhausted, and I wanted to be there for my family for change. And by the way, listeners, Julianna has the cutest family. Her husband is so cute and wonderful, Keith Librethal, So I mean, honestly, he's great. And and she has a ten year old son named Karen No and and Katie, Katie and and Keith and I and John. We we all have dinner together. So she's speaking truth. Um, she she knows my smarty husband who could read the fine print. Thank god, could be a lawyer. Um, yes, wait, what was the question, Daitland? Why did I do it? So? I took about a year off and this fell in my lap. And Um, first of all, I'm from network television. We do twenty two episodes a year. I was lucky if I got a an episode twenty four hours ahead of shooting it. Sometimes there were days that I would get an episode while being in court and the new episode was starting the next day, and and I would get it twelve hours before shooting while I was still working. So Marty knox In sent me five written episodes of this show, which was for me just surreal. Wait is this TV? What? And there was only ten going to be ten episodes? And I had vowed I would never do twenty two again because you just I know, women there we can do it all. We can't. That's just not true. Although you were kind of proud of the fact that you did as many episodes. I remember at the Emmy's you were you were kind of well. I was proud of the fact that I was still standing right, But I don't know if that's a good way to live your life. No, but I think at the time you sort of in some way before it as a batch of honor a little bit. Well, I was proud of the writers, but truly this belongs to Robert and Michelle King, all our writers who never ceased to amaze me with twenty two episodes a year that particular Emmy's that year. UM, none of our writers got nominated, and it was all Cable. I was like, what, six episodes is a mini series. Let's get real, this is not. But these guys were in the writer's room. They only had a three week hiatus all year long, three weeks in June. That was it. They were under the gun all the time. And so I said that to them. I was so blown away that they could keep coming up with this material twenty two episodes a year. So I was trying to make a point for their sake, not so much to my sake. But yes, UM, the landscape has just shifted so much with streaming and and with cable. But that's okay because now I'm benefiting from it. UM. And I vowed that I would only do UM a series that was ten to thirteen episodes long. So this this show showed up and I looked at the character and I've never been offered the you know, the shrew the well. She was also a bit of comic relief and just delicious lines. I mean, honestly, Kitty Montgomery, who I play on diet Land, is this um um magazine editor and she gets the best lines and the best clothes in the in the show. I have to say, it's a luxury interrupt. We have a great clip. Okay, let's listen. I never talked about this around here, but menopause Perry in my case, you know, me, always have to be first. Certainly I had this middle. My chef had to cut absolutely everything white out of my menu. You can do things for the face, the body, even the hands, but the waist you have to attack around here. You start looking like some addy's grandmother. You're out. Martha Stewart can get away with it. She sells hot glue guns, but tastemakers, no mark my word. It won't happen to me. I will not be left behind. Kitty is a high powered, narcissistic yet insecure editor of a magazine for teen girls. So you're in good hands, ladies. Um So, I mean she must be delicious to play. But God, she's so awful. She's so awful in the best way. She is delicious to play. That's the word that's interesting, because that's the word I've been using a lot talking about her. Um. She is so narcissistic and she has no moral center. She just wants to win um whatever it takes, and she she has no idea how awful she is. She actually genuinely thinks that she's really empathetic and sympathetic to other people's causes, and she just she steamrolls over everyone and leaves this horrible debris in her wake without any awareness of it. But at the center of the series is a woman who I think so many women watching, no matter what their size, can relate to, full of self loathing, really at her wits end when it comes to dieting um and And it's funny. I was watching it with a colleague of mine and I said, it doesn't really matter who you are, women can relate to this character. And she is. I think you said, a revelation is joy Nash is a revelation And I keep telling her, I keep telling her She's going to be a role model for so many people. So she is the woman who's providing the copy for your character. She advice column. Right. So, I'm the editor of this teen young woman's magazine and it's I've taken it from zero to a hundred. It's now the number one magazine in the country. And I hire uh. I hire Plumb Kettle, who is a fat girl. And and if Joy was here, she would say say the word fat. Um. She has taught me a lot. She's she's obese, and I hire her. She's brilliant, and she's a writer. And she I hied her to answer the letters because in Kitty's mind, how would Kitty be able to answer these letters? Because Kitty is perfect, but Plum is not perfect. She's incredibly imperfect in Kitty's eyes. And so I hire her in her own eyes and in her own eyes. But what what I love about the character of that Joy Nash plays of Plumb Kettle in the pilot. She says, um, I'm going to be happy when I'm a size six, And she's saving up to do uh the bypass surgery so that she can finally be start her life. I will start my life when I can fit into this dress. And she actually starts ordering dresses online that are a size six, and she takes them out of the box and she hangs them in her claw. Is it um? Now? She is playing a three pound woman. And it's a beautiful message, which is she ends up meeting people who say, wait, why don't why are you waiting to start your life? Why don't you start your life now? She she meets all these people, and it's it's very complicated and and and there's a big backdrop of a vigilante movement going on. And but but what what fascinates me about the character of Plum is that it doesn't matter whether your size too or a size twenty. I think all of us do it. I think we all say, oh, if I just once I meet the right guy, then I'll be happy once I um, or if I just had my eyes done, or if I just yeah, all of that stuff once I do, if I do yoga every single day, then I'll be happy. If I get the right job, then I'll be happy. Instead of being present in the moment and saying, wait a minute, I should be present in my life now. That is what's going to change who I need to be for the better, not when I get there. Then I'll be better. Um. And it's being present instead of constantly wishing your life away to get to the place you think you're supposed to get to, and then then what Then it'll just be the next thing. It's very original. It has animation in it. It does have this crazy violent backdrop, you know, Um, that's the fed up moment. And I think it's really I think, very original. It's alway to describe it. And but are you worried in the current landscape with so many things to watch? You know, do you worry? Gosh? Will this get attention? Will it breakthrough? I don't. I mean, here's here's the thing. It's it's not my ship. I'm just along for the ride. UM. It's not that I don't want it to succeed. Um, whether I was the lead of it or not. UM, I feel like this show, we all had such a great experience making it, and the dialogue just talking about it has been so inspirational to me as a as an actor and as a woman, and um, as someone who now views the world differently, just from being able to have been on a set with these words and with Joy Nash and Marty knoxon UM, I see things a little differently now I'm not as judgmental, so I got what I need from it personally, just from the experience of doing it. I hope for Marty and Joy's sake that it's a huge smash because I want everyone to see it, because I think it hits on really heavy subject matter, but it's satire and it's funny and sad and breathtaking. And Marty said one of her friends saw it and he he said, this is like Devil Wears Pradam meets the Fight Club. You know, it's sort of this mix of It's the backdrop of a vigilante movement that have just had enough of men accused of rape and horrific sexual abuse. Nothing has happened to them, they have not been convicted, and women saying I've had enough, and they start killing them. They start flying, falling out of the sky, sometimes in the middle of Madison Avenue, sometimes off a freeway. It doesn't matter. I'm don't condone violence at all, um, but there's a group of women who have had enough. But it also teaches you to walk in someone else's shoes. And I think in today's climate where we're at with everything, I think we all need to walk in someone else's shoes for a minute. We need to walk in the shoes of refugees, we need to walk in the shoes of people of color, we need to walk in the shoes of women. And I think this show touches on a lot of things that people will relate to in terms of humanity. I just love talking to you, obviously. I'm so happy that our listeners got to spend some time with you today because I think you're so thoughtful, so independent, and such a good person to be all cheesy and weird, No, I really and the four of us are having dinner this week Thursday, so this is not this is not come if you're in New York frying, of course you'd be invited at our table. But but I wish you all the best with this new show and just with your life in general, because I can't think of anyone more deserving. And thank you so much for coming on and talking to us. It's nice to this this kind of venue because you know, you don't have to give thirteen seconds sound bites and you can actually have a really nice, in depth conversation. So thank you. I listened to all your this is how I get around New York City. I walk everywhere because I have time now, and I put on a podcast. There you go, Well, make sure that ours is at the top of your list, and I'm going to send you links for my Matchio show too, so I'm gonna keep you very busy. Okay, good, I have time now. Okay, okay, good Katie. So often when you meet a TV star or a public figure, you're disappointed in real life that they're not as good as they were watching them on TV. And I think Julianna is the opposite of that. She is so sharp, so funny, and a really nice person on top of it all. So this was one case where real life was even better than the small screen. Well, I think she felt the same about you, Brian. I think she really enjoyed time a beautiful friend meeting you. But you're right, I've always found her to be very, very thoughtful, interesting, have a tremendous amount of depth, and clearly ridiculously talented. I don't like her as much as I thought. I'm a little jealous now I'm feeling a little jealous. Anyway, She's a she's a wonderful person, so I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation. We want to say thank you to our team at Stitcher. That's our producer Gianna Palmer, assistant producer Nora Richie, and Jared O'Connell, who mixes and engineers the show does it beautifully. Thank you, Jared. Also to my team at Katie Currek Media, k C M Baby, Alison Bresnick, Bethamas and Emily Beana. Special thanks as well to Ryan Conner for engineering Today in l A. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. Katie and I are the executive producers of this show for Better or Worse, And if you want to keep up with us between episodes, I tweet from at Goldsmith B and Katie is on social media speaking to her millions of fans. Katie Kurrik pretty much addicted to Instagram, So if you want to know anything about my life, who I'm with, what I'm thinking, what I'm eating, what I'm wearing, just check out my Instagram at gap. Anyway, if you enjoy our show, please make sure you subscribe so you get the episodes as soon as they come out. Thanks to everyone who has left us reviews on Apple Podcasts. We love hearing from you and it really helps other people find our show. Please be aware that we are off next week and have some very special surprises coming when we return. In the meantime, have a great Memorial Day everyone, and thank you so much for listening. H