If Dating is Exhausting You, Listen to This

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Hi Amber, Hi Lola. Welcome to an Unlikely Affair.

00:00:08
Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to another episode of an Unlikely Affair. I am so excited because I have my dear and close friend, Sabrina Zohart. She is a dating expert, which is so funny to me that we're dating expert. You just teach people how to be good fringing' humans ultimately, So I am so grateful that you're here, and I'm so excited let's jump into this conversation because I have so many questions and so many people wrote in and let's do it.

00:00:39
Speaker 3: Yay.

00:00:39
Speaker 1: I know it trusts me when I say it.

00:00:41
Speaker 3: I feel a bit like a douchebag when I'm like, I'm a dating expert, Like I don't. I try to help people come back home to themselves, so that you know. I was talking to Ryan yesterday saying, I don't even know that I love the relationship part of it because I want to help people build a solid foundation so you don't need help in the relationship. You already have the tools and the safety built early on so that you can have the healthy and successful relationship. So let's help anybody who needs it.

00:01:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why I said, I feel like dating experts, and I don't want to like take away from your credibility, but because I know you and you're you're so much cooler than like a date like that title just like doesn't. You're just a cool person and I'm so grateful to have met you, Sabrina. You have helped me so much in the dating space, And you know, I think last year there was a lot of questions and conversations on how to navigate dating in the apps, and I kind of feel like everyone's like ready to like turn the chapter and talk about a new conversation when it comes to dating, because for me and my journey in dating, it wasn't about not having a hard time matching with people, but it's like what do you do after you match right? And like are people really seeking a relationship or they just seeking someone to hang out with or have a few fun one night stands. So where do you see dating in twenty twenty six heading I think it's.

00:02:06
Speaker 3: A double edged sword, because I think you're right. I think we were itching for something new. I remember I got him in an age myself, but I remember when dating apps came out when I had just moved to New York and everyone was like, what is this, Like, what do you mean?

00:02:16
Speaker 1: It's like match with something? Okay, Cupid came.

00:02:19
Speaker 3: Out and there was the most beautiful people, like everyone was cool and fun, Like I was going on so many dates that I remember just being like, this is the best thing ever. And then the pendulum swung to the other side, where then it was filled with these bots and people that were fake or but sometimes escorts, which is pretty wild to think. But I think we're getting back to a time where people want more in person, right. I think we're itching for that, but there is a caveat to that. As much as we want that, right, That's why I hate it. If you wanted to, he would. I think we all want a lot of different things. But what I am seeing now is a couple of things that we want immediacy, right, Like I need to know within the second that we meet. Do you want a relationship? Do you want a relationship with me? Do you want one in the way that I want one? Right?

00:03:01
Speaker 1: It's very specific.

00:03:02
Speaker 3: It's this very like Amazon, I need it delivered to me atin two hours, otherwise it's not worth it. I'm not saying everybody, but I am saying that's what I see a lot, or this inability to handle rejection, like, listen, no one wants to be rejected, right, whether that be your career. Like, I don't think either of us love to get the emails of sorry you didn't get this, or we gave it to somebody else, but that's part of it. And I think we've been okay with that in certain environments. And then when it comes to relationships, when you go on a date or two and it doesn't work out, or you have to make that awkward phone call or the text, we see this like crumbling of our self worth. And so I think if we're going to get back into real life, which I'm so down right, I'm not saying everything has to be on dating apps, then I think we also need to be okay with it not working, with having to put ourselves out there, with putting ourselves into environments, right like I don't drink alcohol. I'm not going to go to a bar to meet somebody, right like, that's probably not where I'll be going to match with someone. But I think we have to be okay with disappointment. And I think that, to me has been the lost art of where dating is going is because we're getting more and more into this.

00:04:05
Speaker 1: I'd rather just be single.

00:04:07
Speaker 3: And to me, I hear that is more being avoidant than anything else, because you're gonna have you're gonna be rejected, you're gonna have people not work out. But it's not about the ones that don't. It's about finding one person that does.

00:04:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean for me, I guess you could look at it as like a numbers game. I remember my dad always telling me, is like, it's kind of like the lottery for auditioning, but in dating, it's like a numbers game. You have to just date, and you have to have that really thick skin and be able to take rejection. And being able to take rejection from my experience is about being regulated as a human being. Knowing that just because someone doesn't you know, match with me, or we don't share the same values doesn't mean I'm broken, doesn't mean I'm unlovable, And it literally is you know. I know people say it's an inside job, but it really is. You have to just be completely regulated as a human and that is something that you have definitely taught me how to do through the past few years.

00:05:03
Speaker 3: I want to even say how normal and human. That is right, that we are going to be regulated and just regulated. We'll have peaks and valleys, and we'll have moments where you're crying on the floor because you can't do this anymore, but then you wipe away the tears, you get up and you say, yes I can, and like I know, for me, I have ADHD. My speech is a lot faster than the average person. My brain processes differently, so I could look at things in a very different way. Does that mean it's bad? No, Different just means different. It doesn't have to be that we attach these narratives to it. And I don't know about you, but I see this a lot where we want to identify with something right. I'm autistic, I'm ADHD, I'm aw DHD Now, which is the new thing? I am attachment this, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, But we've lost sight of like you're also a beautiful human who is worthy and deserving of everything else that anybody can get that it's really maybe just someone taught you along the way that you're not.

00:05:52
Speaker 2: Right, And it's like I'm done with a negative self top talk. My word for this year is flourishing and whether that means it's like three steps two steps forward. And I literally had this conversation with my older daughter. I said, she's like, I don't understand why I keep making the same mistakes. And I said, London, Honey, that's life. You're going to learn this. It's going to be an ever learning journey for you. Of it's not linear. Your I make mistakes, Mom makes mistakes, Dad makes mistakes. Every grandma makes mistakes, your sister makes It's like, this is part of life. And as long as you're making these little building blocks and flourishing, then you're doing your job as a human being. Like, we're not supposed to be perfect everything that you see, even though my kids don't have social media as even as adults, we look at this Instagram world or TikTok or you know, it's like you see perfection. It's not supposed to be perfection. Like one of the things that I love about you is like on your social media, when you're having a hard day, you're the first one showing up with tears running down your face and it not rolling down your nose and going like it is a rough day today, And it could be for many reasons, but I want people to understand, especially post marriage, that you can fall back in love because it's a different just because you've had that experience of being married and you've had your either your heart broken or simply didn't work out, like there's a path to flourish in.

00:07:15
Speaker 3: Dating hot mess like guy was and still come out the other side.

00:07:18
Speaker 1: And honestly, how beautiful.

00:07:20
Speaker 3: Of what you were able to teach London right that you were able to like. I don't know if a lot of people realize, but what you did for her by telling her and reminding her that this is human is what a lot of us were lacking.

00:07:32
Speaker 1: A lot of us didn't have somebody that was there. So what did we do?

00:07:35
Speaker 3: We created a story based on our core beliefs to fill in those blanks. And sometimes right there, what you did with her, for anyone that has kids, could change the trajectory of the rest of her life because then she can stop the chatter and go, oh wait a minute, I close the loop.

00:07:49
Speaker 1: My mom explained this to me, I now.

00:07:51
Speaker 3: Understand there's a different thought process to it, and I don't have to be perfect. I just have to be me and it won't always work out versus my messaging growing up was like who you are as a problem, and so if you change who you are, then maybe they'll like you and they'll stay.

00:08:04
Speaker 1: But if you stay.

00:08:04
Speaker 3: Who you are, people are going to leave you because there's something wrong with you. And if I had someone even at high school that was able to tell me differently, who knows where I would have been. But I girl, we all know my store. I was the hot mess express. I would sleep with anybody that walked. I was texting a million times an hour. I was so anxious. I couldn't function. I couldn't work, I couldn't take care of myself. And until I realized all of that was coping mechanisms. Those were just ways for me to escape what I was dealing with internally, and then when I faced it, now you can come out the other side. And the other side of that looks like a human someone who has bad days, someone who has moments where you want to kill your partner but you also love them, someone who is exhausted by dating but still hopeful that it exists. Right, the huge sign of healing is two conflicting thoughts. That I could be exhausted from putting myself out there, but I also know that that's part of it, because that's how we can keep going when we don't self identify if there must be something wrong with me, that's when no one wants me to change that to just haven't met that person yet. It really allows us and of course taking radical accountability of any behaviors or if there's a pattern, right, addressing and understanding the pattern. But outside of that, to your point, dating is a numbers game. Back in the day, it was proximity and timing. You're in my neighborhood at the time, we're both twenty five.

00:09:17
Speaker 1: This is what people do. We get married, we have kids.

00:09:20
Speaker 3: Now I think we have so much information, but yet we know so little because we can women and I mean women, and if we're talking in that gender norm, we don't need a man. We can be self sufficient, we can have the family, we can have the career, we can have what we want. And I think, really what I'm seeing here is like we have the opportunities to finally make choices for ourselves. And so if we keep glamorizing. Oh, well, back in the day, men used to go to war and they would write letters. It's like and a lot of those men also had alcohol problems and PTSD and cheated on their wives. So like, if we want to go back into Pollyanna instead, what we can say is now we get to make choices. And to me, I couldn't be more grateful to be in a delt in the time we're in now because I get to have choices I never would have had potentially in the past.

00:10:05
Speaker 1: Right, I love that.

00:10:06
Speaker 2: So people who that are like deep into dating, right, whether it's online or they're going out to The word church came to mind. I don't know why that was funny church or Whole Foods or wherever your community is. Right, how do you know if someone is emotionally available and actually ready to date versus just hooking up? Like, what are this? I would call them green flags or the signs that you can kind of pick up early on with the intention of I'm looking for a partner, I'm looking for a spouse, I'm looking for whatever that you know, whatever you're seeking in terms of romantic life.

00:10:44
Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people might not like my answer, but at the end of the day, we have to show vulnerability to see if they match it, because somebody could come off either really strong and do everything right, but maybe you don't realize that they're actually a bit more of a facade than they are who they are until you start to set a boundary, until you have a tough conversation, until you say something to them and all of a sudden you see the flippancy and you're like, there it is right, or vice versa. When I first met my partner, he was a lot more reserved and closed off and more a little bit more stoic. That didn't mean he was bad. I thought he was a dickhead when I first met him, but I was like, get let's see if he opens up right.

00:11:21
Speaker 1: He had a really good sense of humor, So I knew there was something there. And I think what it is.

00:11:25
Speaker 3: It's a couple of things. One, it's trusting yourself that when something comes up. Or you and I have talked offline about dating experiences, and I know that when we've spoken, your gut was telling you something pretty early on. But maybe it's all let me give them a chance and let me see right. That's being hopeful and being just like an adult, versus when you meet somebody now and say, well, I tried to have a tough conversation with them, asking their intentions. I couldn't get anywhere right, or I said something and they dismissed me, or they discredited my feelings, or they told me I'm being too much. They said I'm too sensitive Right there, That means they'm not emotionally available. They can't hold space for their own emotions. So what makes you think they're going to hold space for yours? And so I think we want all the green flags we're looking for as consistency. There are words and actions align right. If they say they call, they call, and if they don't, they give your reason not to that they couldn't. If they say they're going to be, they're there. That is how we build trust and safety. When you go to them and say, you know, you said something the other day and it really rubbed me the wrong way? Can I share that with you? They don't get defensive. They say, hey, talk to me. I want to know what's going on with you, what happened so I can understand you. They show curiosity. These are all emotional availability cues that I think oftentimes we look over because we romanticize the red flags. Oh they're mysterious and they're pulling back, which means they must be going through a lot and it's like, no, baby, they're pulling back because they can't handle this. And the quicker that you realize that the quicker, you won't waste your time.

00:12:46
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. So people that are in the dating space and going out, check in with yourself, like after every phone call, just sit quiet. This is something that I started doing that really helped me my eyes and I would say, okay, am I sweating? Like are my legs numb? Or do I have butterflies? Or do I feel at peace? Do I feel love? Do I feel warmth? Do I feel like an upward pull? Like for me, that was a big thing. And I really hope that people can get out of their head and get more into their body and their heart.

00:13:21
Speaker 3: Space one hundred percent because when we intellectualize your brain's like cool, I can avoid feeling if I just understand it. And what you described beautifully is like that's you guys are coregulating, and coregulation is a beautiful thing. But if that's all you have, that's when it becomes dangerous. Right if every time you're without this person, you're losing it. But okay, when you talk to them it's okay. That's when it becomes okay, hey, this is becoming codependent, right.

00:13:45
Speaker 1: Your mood is dependent on them. But when you have a moment where.

00:13:48
Speaker 3: You're like, oh I feel something, you speak to them, Wow, you got clarity. Okay, now I feel more regulated. That's part of a relationship. That's what makes trust build. That's how you feel connected to this person. What you also described is called a corrective experience. Our nervous system doesn't intellectually understand things. So even though you could sit here and say is lovely and he's great, and my nervous system should feel safe, your nervous system is going, yeah, okay, girl, that's fun.

00:14:13
Speaker 1: That's fun. I need to experience that.

00:14:15
Speaker 3: Then when you experience it and your nervous system is saying, oh okay, that's corrective. So not everything has to be this. It can also be this. That's how we have those experiences. Now, for anyone listening, going, I've never had that in romantic that's okay. You can have it in friendships. You could have it with a family member, you could have it with a colleague. I had a client who I just adore him, and he was chasing this guy. It was a gay relationship, so there's two men chasing him to the point where it was breaking my heart to watch it. And I finally had to say, hey, we got to intervene here because this just isn't right for you anymore or healthy. And I try to stay out of that, but sometimes you have to. And we had a call and I said, is there anybody in your life that makes you feel loved? And he said he started crying and he said, my colleagues. They wrote me a letter saying they've noticed that I've lost my spark because he's been so enthralled with this guy. And they wrote to me saying, you don't have to do anything. We love you for you and we just want to be here for you. And I was trying to explain, like, that's a corrective experience your nervous system. It is appreciated and people do love you for who you are. It just because it's not romantic. Now, why do romantic hit the hardest. They're the closest, maybe to our caregivers, So there is nothing that will hit you in that same way. That's why we have to look and say does the pinch match the ouch? But corrective experiences will help you to understand if I accept this in my friendships, then I accept this in my relationships and I'm not going to make any concessions of either of those.

00:15:38
Speaker 2: M Ah, I love that. I love that so much. Okay, so let's talk about dating when you have children, right, because there's a lot of women out there that are navigating dating and having kids who this has been a really hard thing for me as well. And I'm you know something that you said that I just want to touchpace before we move on to this. It's like having these healing experiences, you don't need to be completely healed to be in a relationship. That is something that I'm truly truly learning. And I feel like a lot of people online will say like, you shouldn't enter into a relationship unless you you know, you've spent a year by yourself. Can you go three months without having sex? And I'm like, that doesn't work for everybody. What I've learned is that you can have healing moments. It's like you're sitting on the couch and the guy you're dating, you know, offers you a drink that is a healing moment, or someone where you're feeling sick and someone drops off a bag of medicine saying, hey, I left something at your front door. That is a healing moment, and that is okay to be able to have that experience while you're still learning how to navigate a relationship, learning how you move through relationships. So I just wanted to make that point really fast before we moved on Serena. How do you date when you have kids? It's so Actually teenagers like my kids have Diary of the mouth, like they say the craziest, craziest stuff sometimes. So what have you seen with women you know in your coaching business, women and men that have have kids? And how do we navigate this?

00:17:16
Speaker 3: So what I've seen is an amalgamation of things. And we'll get back to the healing thing you brought up was so important.

00:17:22
Speaker 1: We'll get to it after.

00:17:22
Speaker 3: Okay, when you're dating with kids, what we have to remember is as a parent, right, that's the choice that you're making, is to have these children.

00:17:30
Speaker 1: I hope it's a choice.

00:17:30
Speaker 3: I'm praying to everybody that it was a choice that we made and that that wasn't made for you. But on the aggregate, right, we have to remember that children are our priority, And so I hear from some people of like, well you know they had Like I had one client and she said, well, you know, the guy I was dating had to put his kid first and not me.

00:17:47
Speaker 1: Why the fuck was an I put first? And I said, but why would you be?

00:17:50
Speaker 3: Why would you be if his daughter has a recital versus him going on a date with you. I hope he chooses his daughter's recital overgoing on the date with you, because she is going to remember that, she's going to need that, and then he can also make time for you. And I think what it's about is a balance, right, is knowing that if somebody we have to look at the custody component. Right, If somebody is fifty to fifty with their partner, sure, right, you have more autonomy, you have more freedom depending on the relationship. If someone has eighty to one hundred percent of custody, maybe the other partner is a deadbeat, right, whether a man or female, I see it on both sides. Then what we have to remember is like that person is going to be limited. I have dated men with kids. I don't have any, And there was some times where I don't know if I'd ever told you about this. The guy and I were in the middle of having sex, right like, His daughter lived in California.

00:18:37
Speaker 1: I was in Florida with him. We're in the middle of it, and she called.

00:18:40
Speaker 3: He stops to answer the phone to tell her because she wants to play roadblocks. He says, I'm going to go play with her. Will finish after now. That was inappropriate, right, like that little she did not need to.

00:18:51
Speaker 1: Play robox in that exact moment.

00:18:53
Speaker 3: You're allowed to say, hey, baby girl, I'll talk to you in an hour, I'm in the middle of something right now, or answer after right. I think what we have to look and see is is this person ready to make space in their life for someone else as well, because we have to know that, like the kids will be the priority. According to Psychology Today, they recommend not introducing your children to your partner for a minimum of nine to twelve months because in that nine to twelve before that is usually when relationships don't work, and so nobody right. I'm a childhood divorce. My dad introduced me to a new woman every other day. It was always a new person coming and coming in. And then my mom didn't introduce us to anybody, right, So the pendulum swung. I think if you're going to be when it comes to very little kids, I don't think it's appropriate. I don't think that a little kid has the comprehension to understand why is there ten guys coming in every few months with my mom. But we also have to remember that when you introduce your children to the person you're dating, they're now looking and going. So this is how I'm allowed to be treated? Because if mom is yelled at and someone puts her down and screams at her in front of me, then that means that's okay, that's what I'm allowed to do, and that's how I'm allowed to be treated. So we want to make sure anybody we're bringing in to our children's lives is somebody that is ready to be in our kids life. That's why I always say, when you're talking about dating with kids, be honest, right, Don't pull this bullshit of saying I'm not going to tell this person that I have kids for the first few months, like, I don't know why we would ever do that. Be honest about the fact that you have children, Be honest about the custody you have, Be realistic about the time you have I work six days a week, I have my kids four of those days. Here's the time I have available. Does that work for you? Because I think what ends up happening And the reason worst people get frustrated is they don't feel like they're given a choice, and so give the other person the choice. Right for you, and you have your kids and you're telling the guy you date, hey, here's the schedule, this.

00:20:40
Speaker 1: Is what it is.

00:20:41
Speaker 3: He's also allowed to make a choice if that works for him. It's both people understanding that, especially if you have both children. If you both have kids, then it's about being open and honest that you're going to have to blend a family eventually and having those conversations with the kids when the time is ready. But make sure that this is somebody you want to introduce to them first before you do that, because it causes it's more harm than good.

00:21:01
Speaker 2: I agree a one hundred percent. I think for me, you know, I have my kids. Probably I don't want to say ninety percent of the time, so it's really hard for me to date, Like wait, do the nine to twelve months of dating, because then I would never see my person. So it's it's just about like figuring out schedules. There's no rule book, and I want people to know it's don't get mom guilt, don't feel bad, don't you just have to do what's best for you. And if you listen to your nervous system and you have you know, a life coach, a therapist, someone that's had this experience before in your community, that your or your close friend group, talk to them about it, right, give get some advice because everything that you hear and read online might not work for your life.

00:21:49
Speaker 3: To the point that you made earlier about the like don't sleep with someone for this. It's like I fuck my partner on the first date and here we are three and a half years later, happily in a relationship. There is no one size, it's all now. The only time I will say it's important to just look is if we see a pattern consistently right every single time you date somebody, then within the first date your future planning, you're starting to think of the wedding, You're getting so anxious you can't sit still. That's when we might want to say, Okay, then maybe we probably shouldn't date for a minute. Let's come up with some own coping skills. Let's become stronger within ourselves. But to your point, there is no right or wrong. Now would I suggest meeting your kids on the first date?

00:22:25
Speaker 1: No right.

00:22:26
Speaker 3: I would never ever suggest on the first date, being like, oh, come on over and meet the children. But if you've vetted this person and you feel comfortable, then it's also having a conversation with the kids to say are you okay with this? Are you okay with seeing mom? And if not, I will respect that. But I think it's allowing allowing the children to have a choice, but also still being the parent. They don't get to call the shots, they don't get to tell you how you're going to live your life, but they do have an input on how it impacts them. To your point, I think it's really important to work on the shame, the shame piece of being a single parent who's dating, because I know it might make you feel bad, but you're allowed to have love and you're allowed to feel happy in a relationship. It doesn't mean you need to martyr yourself until your.

00:23:07
Speaker 1: Kids go to college.

00:23:08
Speaker 2: One hundred Oh my gosh, I know someone who actually wasn't in a relationship and didn't have sex for over ten years because she was waiting for her kids too, And I was like, now that is the opposite end of the spectrum, and that's unhealthy in my opinion, that's unhealthy.

00:23:23
Speaker 3: Be sure, if that's a preference, good luck, Gods speed. But we want to find balance between want and need right because we are biologically, I'm not talking about woo woo attachment styles.

00:23:34
Speaker 1: Biologically, we are wired for connection.

00:23:37
Speaker 3: They actually showed that loneliness is like, if you really isolate yourself, it's just as dangerous to your health as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. So knowing that this intense loneliness, Now, if you have a full, robust life and you say dating just distracts, I'm doing this, but I'm giving myself the time. Right if you're open to it, and you're say, if I meet someone, great, but I'm not going to be going on thirty dates and making this my full time job.

00:24:00
Speaker 1: I hear you when I'm with you.

00:24:01
Speaker 3: But it's about being open to the possibility that you do deserve love. And just because it didn't work out with the one person doesn't mean that you can't have a corrective experience to show your kids.

00:24:20
Speaker 2: Okay, so some of the questions that we got.

00:24:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are the girls going through?

00:24:26
Speaker 2: What is a dating attachment style? And why does it matter?

00:24:28
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's zoom out for a minute, because there's no dating attachment style. There are attachment styles we see all over the internet. The avoidant as the worst person and you should be a secure attachment. That's not what this is about, right then, we're just villainizing other people. It's about understanding and what does this essentially mean? When you have an anxious attachment, it's outwards low sense of self, high sense of others, constant reassurance. That's where you get the texting and the calling and the I don't feel safe, so I need you to validate me and tell me I'll be okay. Their biggest fears being abandoned and being like truly a fear of intimacy. We don't see that in the anxious attachment outwardly. But the anxious attacher is also avoidant as well, because they're avoiding dealing with themselves. So that's why they go outward. Why don't they want me? Why don't they like me? Why don't they want to be with me? None of that matters? How is that impacting you, So that's the anxious. Then we go into the avoidant other side of the coin. They learned young in childhood that love is not safe, that who they are as a problem. That maybe they had a caregiver that had really big emotions and they had to be monitoring them, so they learned this isn't safe.

00:25:29
Speaker 1: Maybe they had an.

00:25:30
Speaker 3: Emotionally an available caregiver who put them down for having feelings, so they learned to tuck them away. So when we see the avoidant, it's low sense of others, high sense of self, hyper independent. They see it as I'm losing myself, I'm getting engulfed.

00:25:44
Speaker 1: This feels overwhelming. Now, no one's right or wrong.

00:25:47
Speaker 2: Right.

00:25:47
Speaker 3: Both attachment styles can be very detrimental when nobody is erectifying them and nobody is doing anything about it, so it's not like one is better than the other. Then we go into the disorganized, which is called they also call it fearful avoidant. That is low sense of self and low sense of others. So where we see that very prevalent in homes of abuse. Your caregiver was your source of love and fear, so you can imagine why abuse would be where that would be prevalent, and so that's really where you see the push pull.

00:26:12
Speaker 1: They want love.

00:26:13
Speaker 3: The minute they get it, they pull, they want it, they go, they pull in out, in out. Then you have secure, high sense of self, high sense of others. They understand that independence is beautiful, but so is interdependence. Love, Giving love and receiving love is safe. Their feelings matter so to other peoples, right, So that's what we're striving for. The reason that we look at this in dating isn't to say, well, I'm an anxious attacher. It's like we don't want to a self identify because you can. These are not fixed. You can absolutely heal through and move towards earned secure. But what we want to understand is where did I learn this behavior from? And how old do I feel when I exhibit it? And all we're describing here when we go into the attachment styles is you're triggered, right. It could be a neutral action or reaction. You get triggered. Your nervous system says I'm no longer safe, and then we get flooded and and then we exhibit specific behavior. So this doesn't mean that this person's just always anxious from jumping off the walls, or that this person doesn't hold any space for conversations. My partner is more avoidant, leaning that doesn't mean it just when he gets overwhelmed, he shuts down, and then I have to kind of be there for him to get him back online. And when I get super anxious, that just means that maybe he'll be there, hold my hand and say, hey, babe, could we.

00:27:21
Speaker 1: Do some breath work and come back to now.

00:27:23
Speaker 3: It just is an understanding of yourself and then how you connect with other people. And that's why we want to understand it. But for anything beyond that, it ends up becoming detrimental.

00:27:33
Speaker 2: Hmmm. I love that. How do you not bring that fear being cheated on into every new relationship?

00:27:40
Speaker 3: That's a tough one. I understand that you've been cheated on. So then we have to look and say what's the pattern. And this isn't about shame or blame. This isn't about anybody saying, oh, it's all my fault and it's all theirs.

00:27:49
Speaker 1: What we have to say is was I.

00:27:51
Speaker 3: Dating somebody who from the beginning wasn't being honest or maybe they were dismissing me feelings there of course there are the times where you didn't do anything right. When someone gets cheated on, I don't think it's ever the person's fault, right, it's no one's fault that you got cheated on. So I want to take that out now. Could there have been reasons that the other person did that? Sure, right, we can always, but the other person is accountable for not having had the conversation with you and for deciding to do it in another way.

00:28:17
Speaker 1: That's not on you.

00:28:19
Speaker 3: But if you are projecting that everyone's going to cheat on you and you don't trust people, then we need to get back to a self trust because it's never going to help you no one. First of all, I don't want to be beholden to what somebody else did to you. That's not fair to me, that's not fair to anybody knew that you meet to have to take the brunt of what someone else did to you five years ago.

00:28:37
Speaker 1: And so if you go around saying I.

00:28:38
Speaker 3: Don't trust anybody, I want you to start to reframe that to I don't trust myself to be able to identify if they're a trustworthy person. Trust is conditional. I give a little I see if they if they do something with it. And then I give more. But I'll say this, if you're going to try to get back with somebody that cheated on you, then you're making a choice that you have accepted it and that you are going to let it go because it's not you want to sit here and check their phone every five seconds and excuse them and scream at them. It's like, that's not helping anybody. Then please don't get back together with this person if you can't trust them.

00:29:08
Speaker 1: Whatever you decide, I support you.

00:29:11
Speaker 3: But if you're going to get back in the relationship, then get back in the relationship and try with this person and see if they can earn your trust. Personally, I wouldn't, but that's just me.

00:29:20
Speaker 2: Hmmm. I've been through that before and it literally hit me on the head a bunch of times, and I still didn't learn my lesson. But guess what, Sabrina, I'm better now for it.

00:29:31
Speaker 3: I don't regret anything I've ever experienced because I wouldn't be this version I am today.

00:29:34
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Yeah, amen, amen. Okay, next question, where do women begin when they are starting from scratch or rebuilding their love life after divorce. That's a deep one.

00:29:45
Speaker 3: I think the best place to start is if obviously, if you're in therapy, if you're working with somebody you know, because what we have to do is rebuild your sense of self. Right, For a lot of the times, especially after a divorce, you're not just breaking up with the person. You're breaking up with the version of you that was in that relationship. You're breaking up with the future you thought you were going to have, with the plans, with all of the things that you're breaking up with the version of you that felt something in this relationship. And so what we want to look at, but I kind of did when I first went through my major breakup, was obviously understanding what was the pattern, right, what kept me in this, what brought me into it, and then understanding the body sensation so that I was connecting head to heart and really understanding the nervous system. But I think it's really looking at what did I used to accept that I'm no longer willing to and what are my new non negotiables because we can only rebuild from there. We can't change what happened, and we can't fix anything that happened in the past. But if we've were deciding to move forward, maybe that means going with a dating coach or a relationship coach or a therapist to understand what are my patterns, how am I showing up? What is it that I want? What do I not want?

00:30:45
Speaker 1: What do I like? What don't I like?

00:30:47
Speaker 3: And then the harshest reality is you might not know until you get out there right. And that's why I think dating apps, as much as people hate them, I don't think they're the worst things in the world because they allow you to get your feet wet. You're not jumping out and going onto a singles event, but maybe you get back on an app and see what comes up for you. It doesn't mean you have to do anything with it. But I think sometimes we are so afraid to start that we never do. And I think if you just get into it and put yourself out there, then we can look and go, oh, okay, this doesn't work.

00:31:14
Speaker 1: Let me see what are my choices.

00:31:24
Speaker 2: I remember when I became single and I was like, I am not going on the dating apps. I think internally I just didn't trust myself enough until I had a girlfriend sit down and say, Amber, listen to me, you have to and I said, but why she goes because you've never dated. I got married at twenty, jumped into relationship and was in that relationship for almost seven years. After that, I didn't know what dating was, and my experience. What I learned through dating is you learn about yourself. And I know that sounds so simple and easy, but it was a foreign concept. I was like, of course I know what I want. I want someone who has you know, who's loving and kind and stable and a good example for my kids to show my kids what, you know, what respect and to love a woman looks like, and someone that's you know, mirrors kind of how my dad is with my mom and all these beautiful things. But until I went out there, I was like, oh, my idea of what I want, what I think I want versus what I really want are two separate things. And thank god I decided to try the dating apps and listen, not all dating apps are equal. You get different species with different dating apps, and it was really such a great eye opener for me. So for those of you sitting at home waiting for mister Wright to knock on the door, it's not going to be the Amazon delivery guy or the FedEx guy, or the Uber driver or you know, uber eats. You have to just go out there and get your feet wet. Like you said, it's so important, and it's uncomfortable. Just get really comfortable with being uncomfortable, because that is how you regulate your nervous system. Eventually you realize I'm not being chased by a lion. That fear that my you know that's going off, that alarm that's going off in my body. It's just it's just uncomfortable, and it's okay. It's okay to sit in the discomfort.

00:33:12
Speaker 3: You grow through discomfort to your point. Like we could sit here on paper and say I want all of these things, right. I could sit here and say I can teach you how to do a deadlift, and then the minute you go in the gym, you take your back out because until you try it, until your body understands it, it's going to be uncomfortable. And I'll say this, get out of your head that the first person you meet is going to be like the one that's going to save everything and you won't have to do this ever again.

00:33:34
Speaker 1: Now can that happen?

00:33:35
Speaker 3: Of course?

00:33:36
Speaker 2: Right?

00:33:36
Speaker 3: But I hear it all the time of like, oh, well they were the first person after my divorce and I hadn't felt this and I felt so alive, and it's like, that's beautiful. But you know what also makes healthy. This is what maybe I think a lot of people don't get. What makes a relationship healthy is that you know it can end at any time. That's why it's healthy is because you're both making conscious choices to continue it. And it's not that I need you in my life. I want you in my life, and I'm making space for you in my life. And so knowing that if I'm going to put myself out there it might not work.

00:34:04
Speaker 1: There's probably a good statistically speaking.

00:34:07
Speaker 3: And odds on chance that it won't. But if I hurt relationships, I also heal in relationships. And I need to let my nervous system know. If I think I want someone funny and gregarious and then I go out with that and go, oh, I hated that, right, I wouldn't know until I try it and examine it. Especially to your point, if you've been married for a good portion of your adult life, you didn't get to experience that. Go out, have some fun, see what you like, see what you don't, and let I think the biggest thing is if you start to make it mean anything about your worth, then that's where we want to start to take a look at what it is that we're doing. But if you're out there and you're enjoying yourself and you're saying, this is a fun time, enjoy yourself, give yourself the permission to be happy for a minute.

00:34:46
Speaker 2: A note that I was thinking about while you were saying that is when I first got when I became single, I was dating and I was drinking, and that was not helpful at all because I was really ignoring the sign, the alarms that were going off, or just really checking in with myself. Doesn't mean that you have to be completely sober and take that route, but maybe explore going on a date and not having a drink, like what does that feel like right? Or maybe just saying, Okay, I'm not gonna have two drinks, I'm gonna have just one drink and see how I interact with this person. Because I think use, we use alcohol, we use these substances, whatever it is to kind of like put up these blinders of really what is in front of us. It's like taking off the glasses and really seeing this person, even after a couple of.

00:35:35
Speaker 3: Dates, I would never make a determination about somebody unless I've seen them in different environments. To your point, can you guys just sit on the couch and talk. Can you go to an arcade and have a good time? What are they like when somebody cuts them off? What are they like when someone tells them no?

00:35:50
Speaker 2: Right?

00:35:51
Speaker 3: Ninety day fiance is my trash and we were watching the new season, and of course it was like they text every day and they facetimed every day, and she's so an namorred with him because he was a good looking guy and she was a pretty girl. They show up and the first thing that they do, he says, let's go to a bar, and she's like, I just got off a seventeen hour flight to Australia, the last.

00:36:10
Speaker 1: Thing I want to do.

00:36:11
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh, come on, opens a pursuitcase in the middle of the fucking airport to find her an outfit.

00:36:16
Speaker 1: This girl.

00:36:17
Speaker 3: The whole the while, she's like Okay. Then they get to the house and he's like, wow, she's really overbearing. She's really annoying.

00:36:23
Speaker 1: It's like, because you.

00:36:24
Speaker 3: Guys didn't know each other, see someone in different environments so that you can then go oh, no, thank you, because who is going to be the person that's holding you when you cry. Who's going to be the person when your parents pass, when something happens to you and you get sick.

00:36:37
Speaker 1: That's who's going to be there for you.

00:36:38
Speaker 3: So you better make damn sure that that person can be there in the ways that you also need.

00:36:43
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm mm hmm. I remember I dated someone who had terrible road rage, and that was a huge Like I was in the car gripping. They were being screaming at other people, and I was like, Amber, if you don't run for the frickin' hills, I am going to put you in time out like I had. I was like, I have to get out of this. This is terrible. This is not good for me. And this is just a small window on how he treats other people.

00:37:13
Speaker 3: And how disregulated he is, because road rage is a dysregulation. If you can go from zero to one hundred that quickly, then that's a big red flag. But what happens is we overlook it, right, We're like, oh, they're just frustrated or oh they're But in the beginning, it was so fun, it's like okay, But in the beginning, everyone's on their best behavior, so we really want to vet this person.

00:37:30
Speaker 2: But he wasn't on his best behavior. That was like just a few dates in. That's why I was like, Okay, this is not gonna work. Not work for me.

00:37:38
Speaker 1: I guess that's his version of his best behavior.

00:37:44
Speaker 2: Okay, soon after dating someone, you know, whether it's for like a four week period, eight week period, how quickly should you start accepting dates? Like if you're ready just to jump like say you're dating you're not in a full blown relationship, and you're you're dating someone after two or three months it doesn't work out, Should you give yourself a little space? Or do you can you just jump right back, get on the horse and get y up.

00:38:11
Speaker 3: I think it's dependent upon who ended it and what happened, right, because I've had it where I was so enamored with someone that I was crying hysterically in my room for three days after it ended, because it was more about the idea of them than who they actually were. So I think me running into another guy would have been a distraction versus when I met Ryan. I broke up with a dude two days prior, but we had like a two month thing. It never got serious. He had a rectile dysfunction, so I was never satisfied he was you know, it was the type of thing that I was already starting to fizzle. I was kind of getting over it, and when we ended it, I was like, yeh, I'm out of here. This is fucking bullshit, and so I was ready. I was like, ah, this is a blip on my screen, get back out there. And so I think what we want to look at is how do you feel if you're doing this beeacaeruse. You're trying to get over this person and to help you forget about them. Please don't go back out They're sitting that discomfort. Allow yourself to miss somebody and give yourself the closure of I'm going through withdrawal. Especially if I had someone every single day and now I don't have them at all, I need to withdraw from them and not just take another drug in its place.

00:39:10
Speaker 1: But if you are, eh, you know, it was fun. This was nice, but like it just didn't work out great.

00:39:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, get back out there and date, because there's a difference between how I'm seeing this as I this completed me versus this was fun, but it just didn't work out. It looks the same on the outside, but on the inside it's a completely different experience.

00:39:27
Speaker 2: Hmm, okay, love that all right. Last question, what is the difference between attention versus affection?

00:39:34
Speaker 3: I really like this one, Okay, So I would say attention versus affection is not enough of a differentiation. Affection is just showing love. That could also be attention. We want to know the difference between attention and intention. Attention is just that somebody texts you that they're there because it makes you feel good. Intention is that they're there because of who you are. They're there because they want to build something with you. They're there because they genuinely see that you are a partner for them, which includes how the hard conversations. Someone who's just there for attention or even affection, right, I just want to feel good. I want to have sex, I want someone to cuddle with, I want someone to be with. But they're not going to be there when you have the hard conversations. They're not going to be there when you tell them something bothered, you reset a boundary. Someone intentional is going to stick around no matter what because their intention is to build something with you.

00:40:20
Speaker 1: It's not to get attention from.

00:40:22
Speaker 2: You, Amen's sister. I love it, Sabrina, thank you so much. I learned so much today and this is going to be so helpful to all of the listeners. Guys, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Unlikely Affair. We will catch you next week.

00:40:39
Speaker 1: Bye guys, Bye,