#18 Sven

Hello Bie. You know it's something that we don't do 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:08.240 very often. I'm realizing on. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:13.240 Because ye. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.320 I'm asking if I can use the personal pronoun with her, 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.680 if that would be okay. I don't want to be presumptuous. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.160 You're like in grade four again, So your French never evolved. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.000 If I ever had a girl, you know what I 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.640 would name her? 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:28.080 What? 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.640 Pooh bell? That's that's French for garbage. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:33.680 Oh god. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.240 If there was a boy twin, you know what i'd 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.560 call him? What would you call him? Moutard? That's French 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.120 for mustard. Moutard and pooh bell. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:43.760 Garbage and mustard. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.280 We kind of go together, like garbage and mustard. Yep, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:59.160 I'm the garbage from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:15.400 this is Heavyweight Today's episode Sven. In two thousand and eight, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.240 Sven received a letter for jury duty. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:19.120 You know, lots of. 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.200 People would say, oh, this is such a boring thing. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.440 Oh no, I hope I don't get jury duty. But 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.560 I was more curious and interested in like the process, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.600 and you know, I liked watching stuff like Law and 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:32.319 Order and other things like that. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.920 SVU Criminal Intent, svenn liked them all. He was a 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.479 software developer, newly married, and he and his wife had 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.600 just bought a new house, his first. The house had 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:45.960 a flagpole in the front and a hammock out back. 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.160 After work, he'd come home, relax on the couch and 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.360 watches legal dramas. Jury Duty was going to offer an 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.559 inside view of the TV shows he loved. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.880 I he wasn't fooled into thinking it was some weird, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:04.040 glamorous thing like that. But uh, I thought jury's were interesting, 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.560 the idea of, you know, judging your peers right or wrong. 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.239 I've all sort of had a sense of civic responsibility. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.200 In my book, the only thing that makes responsibility less 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.519 appealing is adding the word civic to it. Paying your taxes, 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.040 appearing before his zoning board not for me. Like most, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.920 when I appeared for Jury duty, I prayed for dismissal, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.120 not spend. Though during the selection process he engaged with 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.120 the questions the lawyers posed as best he could, and 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.400 when he was asked how he felt about capital punishment, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.359 he answered candidly. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.840 I believe bad people should be punished in that way 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.400 or could be punished in that way, and so I 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.520 wouldn't say I was strongly for it, but I wasn't 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:51.519 against it, and consequently I got on the jury. 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.680 The case was the State of Texas versus Paul David's Story. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.560 Story was a twenty two year old accused of the 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.320 murder of Jonas Cherry, the manager of a mini golf 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.799 course in Hearst, Texas. Story and an accomplice forced Cherry 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.600 into the back office, made him unlock the safe and 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.239 put the money a few hundred dollars in a bag, 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:15.640 and then they shot him multiple times. Story's trial lasted 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.960 two weeks and would have felt familiar to anyone who 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.640 watches TV courtroom dramas. There were lawyers with thick minders 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.959 full of bilistics reports and medical examinations. Character witnesses were called, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.560 and disturbing photographs of the victim's body were shown. The 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.400 only thing missing was any suspense about the verdict. 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:38.040 There was no doubt that he was guilty of murder 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.440 and robbery, and so really, as a jury, all we 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:42.880 had to worry about was sentencing. 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.960 The jury had to decide between life imprisonment or the 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.120 death penalty. It seemed the victim's family knew what they 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.120 wanted it should go without saying the prosecutor announced his 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.040 Fen and the other jurors that all of Jonas's family 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.960 and everyone who loved him believed the death penalty is appropriate. 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.240 The prosecutor asked the jurors to sentence Paul's story to death. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.200 The instruction stated that for the death penalty to be imposed, 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.680 the jurors must judge three things to be true. That 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.280 Paul's story was guilty, That there were no mitigating circumstances 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.520 like say, mental illness or provocation. And lastly, that story 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.479 posed a future threat to his community. 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.960 That was the one I had issue with. 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:29.640 I seriously doubted that he would be a continuing threat 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.680 to the prison community. 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.000 And what was it about Paul's story that made you 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.400 feel like you just didn't see him as a continued threat? 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:43.599 A couple of things. 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.719 His testimony, the young man's Fen saw in the courtroom 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.880 appeared confused, in over his head, and remorseful. This was 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.680 his first offense, and some of the evidence suggested that 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.280 it was Story's accomplice who'd been the mastermind behind the 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.239 horrible crime, as well as the one who'd fired Savin 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.760 was certain that Paul's story should be punished, but he 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.240 didn't think he should be put to death. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:14.800 But in the chambers there was a very different feel. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:20.440 Everyone else was in favor of the death penalty, and 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.200 so faced with you know, almost a dozen other people 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:29.440 who already felt strongly, I didn't think I could convince 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.200 anyone that of what I was thinking. I'll be honest, 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:35.800 I was scared. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.200 At twenty seven, Savan was the youngest juror by about 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.200 ten years, and he was the kind of guy who 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.599 avoided speaking up at all costs. At home, if his 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.840 neighbor parked in his space, he let it go. At 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.360 the office, if his boss told him to do something, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.480 even if he disagreed, he did it without question. In 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.960 other words, even though he'd been looking forward to being 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.280 a juror, when he found himself in the jury, Sven 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.760 wasn't exactly Henry Fonda and twelve angry men. The way 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.000 he understood it, the jurors had to reach unanimous decision, 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.200 and the idea of swaying eleven strangers over to his 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.000 way of thinking seemed impossible. He was also afraid that 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.000 if he opposed the group, he would result in a 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.800 hung jury. In a mistrial, they'd have to start the 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.400 whole process over again with a new jury everyone would 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.680 be mad at him, so Sven said nothing. An hour 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.080 and a half later, Paul's story was sentenced to death 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:33.120 by lethal injection. 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.120 It was hard to look at him during the sentence. 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.440 We sat waiting for the judge to ask us, you know, 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.720 what's the sentencing, and everyone was really tense. And the 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.640 woman next to me, another juror, began crying. She's trying 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.640 to hide it, you know. And I gave him my 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:04.680 handkerchief and she just wept. Then the foreman announced the verdict, 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:10.360 and I think his mother cried out. They had an 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.120 exit for us to go through after we collected our things, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.320 and we were out of that courtroom fast. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.080 It felt like a mistake right away. 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:25.800 Svan went over to his parents' house, where he had 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.600 dinner and drank scotch with his dad. He told his 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.480 family about the trial, and then he went home, where 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.040 he had more to drink before bed. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.200 And then that was that. Then it was over. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.400 And I went on with my life, or at least 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:41.960 he tried to. 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:48.560 But what do you do with these feelings? I was 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:49.120 just stuck. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:53.400 I felt massive amounts of regret. I felt, you know, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.680 I felt guilty, you know, sending someone to death row. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.160 When you think about the people a capital murder trial effects, 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.560 you think of the victims, their loved ones, the accused 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.720 and their families and what they're going through. You don't 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.680 usually think about what it does to the jurors. But 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.360 for Spen, the trial wasn't something he could put behind 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.880 him at the crack of a gavel. In the days 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.680 and weeks after the verdict, he read every article about 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.440 the case he could find, but the more he read, 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.080 the more shame he felt. So eventually he just stopped. 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.480 I realized it wasn't really healthy. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.960 At the time. Spenn was a regular drinker, and. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.560 It only got worse after the trial. But got a 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:36.840 lot worse after the trial. 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.400 He was drinking more beginning as soon as he got 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.400 home from work and spending more days hung over. His 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.160 wife didn't understand what was going on. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.080 It may have contributed to my divorce, which was the 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:49.800 following year. 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.280 A year after the trial and Sveen's life had changed. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.880 The new house with the hammock and the flagpole was 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:08.400 sold and Spen moved out of Texas. Sven settled in Olympia, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.680 Washington to start his life over. He found an apartment 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.440 for himself and his cat Niku, but he couldn't shake 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.200 his memories of the trial. When a friend bought a 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.439 second hand silver Nissan, Sven couldn't stop thinking about how 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.880 that was the same car as the victim, Jonas Cherry 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:27.120 had driven. When addressing coworkers, the name Jonas would accidentally 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.719 slip from Spen's lips, and Paul's Story, who still was 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.600 on death row, was never far from Sveen's mind. He 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.200 tried to escape through alcohol, but it didn't free him 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:41.120 from his shame. Sometimes after a night out drinking, he'd 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.000 return to a Facebook page Paul Story's mother had made 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.720 for Paul. One mother had already lost her son, and 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.640 now because Fenn had been too afraid to speak up, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.880 another mother was going to as well. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.440 I'm not trying to excuse his crime. It was terrible, 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.920 but to Sunday guide it doath for anyon? 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:01.040 Is it all that? 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:07.679 Just the presence in your mind, the sort of recurring 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:08.920 thoughts about it? 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:11.439 Can that go away? 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.120 For all the bad rapid gets Shame offers a certain safety. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.719 It provides a comfortable hole to hide in away from 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.800 the judgment of others, but it can also lead to 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:28.000 isolation and inertia, and for eight years, eight years in 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.360 which Paul's Story sat on death row awaiting an execution date, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.360 Sven barely talked about the trial with anybody. But then, 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.080 in twenty sixteen, the year after Paul Story's federal appeal 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.280 had been denied, a reporter writing a series of articles 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.760 about the judicial system approached Ven about his experience as 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.800 a juror. Sven was tired of being all alone with 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.160 his regrets, and so for the first time, he opened 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.040 up about his feelings. I felt guilty, he told the reporter, 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.760 and sad and a little helpless. I don't think I 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.360 made the right call. Sven had hoped that talking about 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.520 the trial might help, and it did up until the 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.120 article was published. That was when Spen received an uncomfortable 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.280 phone call from a lawyer who'd read the article. Sveen 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.079 was at work, fearing his coworkers might overhear, he took 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.880 the call outside behind his office building. It was there 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.319 that he learned that eight years earlier, he'd misunderstood a 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.040 key part of the jury instructions. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.720 I thought incorrectly. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:35.960 Essentially, I believed I would have to convince everyone to 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:42.520 choose life imprisonment. When In fact, all I had to 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:48.679 do was declined the death penalty, and that's all it 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:49.400 would have taken. 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.679 Preventing the death sentence only required one dissenting vote, a 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.520 vote Spen could have cast, so there would have been 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.280 no mistrial, no hungury, and instead of the death penalty, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.160 Paul's story would have gotten life in prison without parole. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:06.480 And that would that would have been nice to know 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.160 I could have changed Oh, I could have let him live. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.880 After the article was published, something else happened, something Spenn 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:28.079 never expected or wanted. Paul Story's mother, Marilyn, got in touch. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:33.959 She reached out with an email filled with sentiments of forgiveness. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:39.200 She had forgiven me and if I wanted to, I 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:44.320 could reach out and talk with her. And knowing that 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.199 there was that forgiveness, it felt so weird like it. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.359 It wasn't something I could completely understand. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.839 Forri Sven, it didn't make sense. Why would Marilyn want 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.760 to speak with him? How could she, of all people, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.440 forgive him for something he couldn't forgive himself. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.040 I didn't know how to deal with I still kind 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:04.280 of don't know how to deal with that. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.320 And I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't match her message. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.280 How do you mean? Well? 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.960 I wasn't sure how to reply with something as powerful 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:17.280 as that. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.520 It just floored me. I didn't know what to say. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.800 Sven was never able to write Maryland back. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:30.080 I did began a reply, but I didn't. 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:36.280 I didn't have the courage to finish or send it. 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.240 It's just, you know, there's so much pain in there, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.839 and I feel like I really wrecked things up. 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.400 A few months after Spenn received Maryland's email, an execution 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.319 date was set. The state would put Paul's Story to 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.880 death on April twelfth of twenty seventeen. But then something 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:05.240 unexpected happened. Glenn and Judith Cherry, the parents of the victim, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.160 came forward. It seems that at the trial the prosecution 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.000 had lied. The Cherries, in spite of their son's murder, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.439 are and always have been, against capital punishment. In a 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.880 video they released publicly, Judith Cherry presents a statement which reads, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.800 in part, we do not want Paul Story's family, especially 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.040 a mother, to witness the purposeful execution of their son. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.120 They are innocent of his deeds. Based on this testimony, 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.760 with only five days to spare, Paul Story's execution was postponed. 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.000 When news of the stay of execution reached Fenn, it 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.680 felt like a second chance, an opening to finally respond 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.480 to Marilyn's email. But he didn't. It's now been over 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.400 two years, he's remarried, doesn't drink anymore, but he still 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.640 hasn't contacted Marilyn. And so at this point, what do 0:14:58.680 --> 0:14:59.240 you want? 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.480 I need to apologize for not. 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.480 For not doing what I should have done to begin with, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.360 for not following my gut, for not trying. 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.560 Shame leads to inertia, And as even the most casual 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.400 reader of the fundamentals of physics will tell you, an 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.680 inert object will remain inert until it is acted upon 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.440 by an external force. In other words, it takes a 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.240 little nudge. And who better to supply a little nudge 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.440 than a little nudge. And so I write Marilyn a letter. 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.960 I know this is a really sensitive and deeply personal issue. 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.480 It reads, and I hope I'm not being too forward. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.280 I ask Marilyn if she remembers a juror by the 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.720 name of spen Burger. About a week later, I receive 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.600 a note back via email. Thank you so much for 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.680 your letter, Marilyn, writes, I have no ill will toward 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.680 mister Berger. I have offered on my email address as 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.120 well as my phone number with no reply. She also 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.960 forwards me her original email to Fenn, the one she 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.760 sent two years ago, the one he can't stop thinking 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.680 about when I read it. I'm expecting a grand gesture 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.200 of forgiveness, but Marilyn never mentions forgiveness, never even uses 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.200 the word. Instead, it's just six short sentences in which 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.840 Marilyn thanks Vin for the article and says she shared 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.400 it with her son. Her tone's breezy. She ends with, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:32.600 have a great day exclamation mark. I understand That'svenn, consumed 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.880 by guilt, would read so much into so little. What 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.760 I don't understand is why Marilyn sent him the email 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:39.720 in the first place. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.240 I know you're jokingly mentioned breakfast. Oh, I was joking. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:08.720 I have, like I. 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.560 Have a couple of little things if you get packish 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.840 at all, some croissant, some of this stuff I don't know, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.440 some cookies, yeah, okay. Marylyn lives in Fort Worth, Texas. 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.000 The two of us meet in a hotel suite downtown, 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.760 where I can't stop offering her food, but she can't 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:26.560 stop refusing. 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.000 Do you want to have a coffee or cheek? 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:29.600 No. 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.720 Marilyn is tall and stately, with smiling eyes. She's in slacks, boots, 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.639 and a crop blazer, all in black. She sits on 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.960 the end of the couch next to an empty armchair 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:41.760 and tries to give me a sense of what her 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.199 life was like before the trial. 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.719 I was always the life of the party. I mean, 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.840 I was a joster. Oh make sure you have Marylynd there, 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.800 because she's gonna keep the party going. I was always 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.040 kind of the one that everybody went to. People know, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:55.680 you can call me in the middle of the night. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.639 You know, if you need somebody to come pick you up, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.720 you call Maryland. She'd get up, She'll go do it. 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.479 Since the trial, Maryland doesn't feel like the same person. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.639 But after ten years, her friends and family want her 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.520 to go back to being the same old Maryland she 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:10.240 always was. 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.919 So it went through a transition of my family not 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.000 understanding because it's like, Okay, you know, well, why aren't 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.560 you cheery and happy like you used to? And you 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:21.879 got to go on with your life. 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.320 But this is Maryland's life. Every day she's reckoning with 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.640 the horror of her son's crime and worrying endlessly about 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.199 his safety in prison. The thing that's hardest, though, is 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.560 the way the people closest to her now look upon 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.879 her son. She says that everyone's past judgment on Paul 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.320 written him off as worthless and unredeemable, and they blame 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:42.240 him for her pain. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.639 And I even had a family remember where Paul is 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.920 the cause of all of this, and that was. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:51.359 Very hurtful. 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.120 It's like they wanted everything to be okay. But that's 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.159 my child, and I love him and I'm not going 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.199 to ever stop fighting for him. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.520 Fighting for him meant working with her son's lawyers to 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.280 change his sentence to life in prison. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.120 Paul's appeals more exhausting. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.120 It took up all of her time and energy, which 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.400 affected the hospitality job she worked at for over thirty years. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:20.080 It became extremely hard for me to concentrate at work, 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.600 and I feel like it cost me my job. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.879 After losing her job, Marilyn then lost her house. She 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.720 was forced to move in with her younger son. 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:30.879 So it's kind of like, you know, at my age, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.679 where I felt that i'd be getting ready to retire, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.920 I'm storing over. So that's a hard thing. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.520 Ten years after the trial, and everyone, her friends, her 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.639 family have all moved on. So when Marilyn reads friend's article, 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.000 she saw in him someone like her, someone who never 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.400 gotten past that final day of the trial, and they. 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:06.119 Actually gave the sentence, the death penalty. I thought I 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.600 had died. I thought I had literally died. It didn't 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:16.320 even register because I'm just like, what just happened? What 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.280 have they done? You know? My whole time there, I 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.280 was just look at the jurors to try to read, Okay, 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:24.520 what are they thinking? 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:25.520 What are they doing? 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.359 I wanted them to know if I could only tell 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.160 them what kind of person he is, And I want 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.120 people to know, you know, everybody's they're assumed that if 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.480 you're involved in a hang his crime like that. 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:39.320 That you're a monster. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:40.720 But he wasn't a monster. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:47.960 Okay, so he's going to come up. 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.440 Marilyn and I have been talking for about an hour 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.480 and a half. When the front desk funds. 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:03.520 As the n spin Yes, I'll hope I get that 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.000 before he gets it. 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.199 But before we get a chance to practice our fans. 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:14.359 Sven is at the door, Jonathan, it's very nice to 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:21.879 Marilyn is here Spin Sven lingers in the door of 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:25.400 the hotel room. Here, sit down, have a seat over there. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.240 He's bespectacled, neatly dressed in a collared shirt and sweater. 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.359 He looks around and clears his throat. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.440 I'm a little nervous. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:34.479 So. 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:37.560 The last time Marilyn and s Fan had been in 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.359 the same room was ten years ago. At the trial, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.680 Marilyn was seated behind the bar span sat in the 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.359 jury box, But today he sits down in the empty 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.320 armchair beside her. He can't quite bring himself to look 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.679 at her. As he tells Marilyn what it was like 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.440 to receive her email, he gazes down at his lap. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.359 It was it was very surprising, and I read it 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.840 and I reread it, and I even. 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.080 Began several letters that never went anywhere. I didn't know 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:09.560 what to say. What do you say about that? 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:12.840 I don't want to write a letter that's trying to 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:15.240 make me feel better, do you know what I mean? 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.760 From the moment the vote was cast, I had regret. 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:26.119 I thought I am doing the wrong thing. And although 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:29.679 it was great hearing that you know you forgave me, 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.080 I couldn't forgive myself exactly. 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:35.879 And I can't even imagine how you must feel. 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.320 Okay, first of all, I want to say, I don't 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:42.760 want you to feel shamed, because you know my son 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:48.440 was involved in a crime. He made a wrong choice. 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.040 And I don't ever want you to feel that you 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.080 did anything wrong. You did what you felt you had 0:22:56.119 --> 0:23:01.080 to do at the time, but you came back and 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:05.040 for you to come out and for you to say, hey, 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.359 I made a mistake, you write your wrong. 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.080 I can tell by Sven's face that he isn't convinced, 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.960 he doesn't feel like he's righted anything. This is because 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:21.119 for years Spen has been avoiding all traces of the case. 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.440 No googling, no newspapers. He never even read the article 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:28.920 he'd been interviewed for. So he doesn't know what Marilynd knows, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.280 which is the chain of events that his articles set 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:40.720 in motion. The jury instructions for Paul Story's case were 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:43.680 written in dense legal ees, and nowhere in their nine 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.520 pages did they state that a single dissenting vote can 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:50.199 prevent the death penalty. In fact, courts in Texas are 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:54.240 prohibited from telling jurors that. In theory, that's to encourage 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:57.280 them to arrive at a consensus. Well, What it means 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:02.080 is Spen's confusion wasn't his fault. For years, legal advocates 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.639 had wanted to bring a bill before the legislature. They 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:08.359 would clarify the instructions, but they needed someone who could say, 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.480 I would have done things differently if I had understood. 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:15.080 Marilyn explains to FN that with him and the things 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:17.800 he'd said in the article, they'd finally found that person. 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:20.720 There are senitors in the state of Texas who have 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:25.000 introduced the bill based on you, to change the way 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.520 destructions are given to a death ponem. 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:31.400 To Jerid, Sven, slumped in his chair, straightens up. 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:37.080 Really, you have no idea what sort of impact you had. 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:40.640 I don't know anything about that. 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:42.040 You were very instrumental. 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:45.840 This is I'm shocked. 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.200 While his eyes have tended to dart around the room, 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:52.439 looking at me or down at his hands, right now, 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:56.000 Sven is looking directly at Marylyn. She tells him that 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.479 had he in fact voted against the death penalty at 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.200 her son's trial, these attempts at reform might never have happened. 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.240 I'm a firm believer of the things happened for a reason, 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.119 because this is not just about my son. It's about 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:12.240 other mothers sons that are on death row as well. 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:15.879 So if this can help any other case, you know, 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:22.040 outside of polls, then we've served that purpose. You came forward, 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:24.520 so I look at you as my hero. 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:30.120 Then physically shrinks from the word hero. It's as though 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.680 she's placed a large, awkward crown atop his head. 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:39.000 Wow, that's not the way i'd considered myself for my 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:40.199 actions in any way. 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:41.679 I don't feel. 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:46.760 That's to me. You are so you know it means 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:47.120 a lot. 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:52.879 That's a lot to process. I I had no idea 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:55.040 you didn't know any of this. No. 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:56.240 Oh, the articles. 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:02.040 There's a really good one in the Texas Tribute. It's 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:07.200 one of the ones. I actually printed it out for you, 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.560 but I waste Coca Cola on it, so I didn't 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.159 want to give you an article that was uh, but 0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:14.120 you should look it up. 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:16.800 Oh, this blows my mind. 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.200 I need to send you some articles here because it's 0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:21.120 definitely movement. 0:26:21.160 --> 0:26:22.240 It's definitely movement. 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:33.360 Well, I'm sorry, I'm a little at loss for words. Yeah, 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:35.159 but walking in here, I didn't I didn't know what 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:41.320 to expect, and I was a little nervous. I do 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:45.240 feel even just now a little bit of weight taking 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:46.200 off my shoulders. 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:54.000 This helps, This helps so much, Oh, this helps so much. 0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:03.560 After all these years, Sven is finally able to accept 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:07.560 Marylyn's forgiveness, even if he still isn't ready to forgive himself. 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.840 It choos me up today that I didn't express a 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:18.000 dissenting opinion. I should have spoken up at least. I mean, 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:19.960 I didn't think he would be a danger too with 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:21.000 the prison community. 0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:24.200 I didn't see a hardened criminal there. 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:28.480 I got the impression of sort of a kid who 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:31.560 was in a situation he didn't know how to handle. 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.159 I saw someone who made a terrible mistake and someone 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:37.879 I did not believe would do it again. 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:42.600 As Benn speaks, Marylynd's eyes well up now. 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:45.399 I kept looking at the jurors and I was like, 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:48.320 you know, it has to be somebody owned there that 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:51.240 feels and dick and see through all of this, that 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:54.199 the prosecutor that's presenting in everything to know that my 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:55.399 son is not a monster. 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:58.840 No, no, never, I never saw Paul as a monster. 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:03.080 After the crime. Marilyn's family never saw her son the 0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:06.240 same way again. From that moment on, he was nothing 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:08.639 more than a murderer, and on the final day of 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.679 the trial, twelve jurors confirmed that judgment. Her hope had 0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:15.960 been that maybe someone had seen something else. It wasn't 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:18.360 a hope for someone to recognize in her son anything 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:21.760 special or good. She just wanted them to see him 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:23.159 as something other than a monster. 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:26.840 I thank you God, I appreciate that s the trial, 0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:27.960 I never saw that once. 0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:31.880 Paul's story is still on death row and Sven still 0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:35.160 can't reverse the sentence. But in speaking aloud the words 0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.680 that Marilyn's been repeating to herself for so long, Sven's 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:40.720 made her feel less alone. 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:48.520 You have some of the hurt that I have carried 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:51.240 on my heart for the last twelve years. You just 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:51.840 lived in it. 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:55.000 You have no earthly idea what. 0:28:54.840 --> 0:29:01.719 That meant to me. It's meant a lot, and for 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:08.920 you to say that it is it, it's. 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:12.480 It really is my heart. 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:24.720 After years of worry over what to say to Marylyn, 0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:27.000 Sven's finally found the right words. 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:27.840 I'm sorry. 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:30.520 I never wrote back, that's okay, I totally understood. 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:32.280 It's a lot. 0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:40.800 Since then and Maryland's meeting, a judge made an official 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:45.040 recommendation that, based on Glenn and Judith Cherry's testimony, Paul's 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:48.080 story sentence be changed to life in prison without parole, 0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:51.160 though the Court of Criminal Appeals still has to make 0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:55.480 a final ruling. Stories lawyers are hopeful, and so is Marilyn. 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:00.520 As for Sven, After finally responding to Marylyn decided to 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:04.240 send a letter of apology to Paul's story. I couldn't 0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.120 find the strength to speak up in the jury room, 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:08.959 he wrote, and that is a mistake I will carry forever. 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:13.360 Sven has yet to hear anything back. 0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:59.440 Now that the Fernitures returning to its goodwill home, now 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:04.320 that the last month's rand is scheming with the damage 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:05.920 to take. 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:11.560 This moment to save if we imagine, if. 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:16.200 We too felt far. 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:20.600 From things accident. 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:29.120 Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein, along 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:32.280 with Stevie Lane, Peter Bresnan, and Khalila Holt. The show 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:35.760 is edited by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Bloomberg. 0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:39.600 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Emmanuel Barry, Caitlin Kenny, John, 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.960 Michael Tuttlegates, Amanda Marzulo, Mike Ware, Emily Follis, Brian Reed, 0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:47.560 Sean Cole, Diane Wu, Christopher Swetala, Ira Glass and the 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:52.040 rest of our friends at This American Life and Jackie Cohen. 0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.320 A very special thanks to Maurice Shamas. If you want 0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:57.760 to read the original article that Maurice reported with Spen, 0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:00.840 we're including a link to it on our website. Bobby 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:04.000 Lord mixed the episode with music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, 0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:07.680 Michael Hurst, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Additional music 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:10.440 credits can be found on our website, Gimbletmedia dot com 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:13.280 slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans 0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:15.800 courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:19.120 Hailey Shaw. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:22.040 us at Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll have a 0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:26.320 special episode next week, special because it was recorded in 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:37.000 front of a live studio audience. We'll see you then,