Hater Season: Victoria Song & Alex Cranz

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Also media, Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zytron. Buy a T shirt, subscribe to the premium newsletter, pledge yourself to the Zitron's graveyard Smash. And this is of course hater season, and we're joined by two of the greatest haters to ever do it Victoria's song of the Verge.

00:00:31
Speaker 2: Hello, and I hate things that's.

00:00:34
Speaker 1: Right, And of course Alex Alex Kranz and that's just I'm kidding. That's that is just me flawlessly saying the word Alex.

00:00:42
Speaker 3: I hated it. That was the worst pronunciation of my name ever, But I think it works for the for the show today.

00:00:48
Speaker 1: It works for the show. And also people say my name wrong all the time, so I need to get one ron right. Ed ron z xytronn Zytron is the most that one. I'm just like, do you pronounce everything like the word high? Anyway, Victoria, we'll start with you because you told me beforehand you hate the wood wellness. I'd love to understand why.

00:01:12
Speaker 2: We had to start with like a soul cleansing breath like they do in those wellness studios that you sometimes get yoga in. But yeah, so Normally my beat is wellness and health, not wellness wearables in health tech, and that is increasingly now being co opted by the word wellness, which is nina is ten times agrift. And so my job has become someone who it's changed from someone who evaluates technology to someone who is like, is this snake oil? Oh my god, it's snake oil. Let me explain why it's snake oil.

00:01:46
Speaker 3: All they want.

00:01:47
Speaker 2: Your piss and your pee and everything is dystopian and oh, maga is involved now, okay, well maha, and just all the news on my beat is just like, Okay, what if we didn't what if we didn't.

00:02:05
Speaker 1: Go like.

00:02:08
Speaker 2: A full sixty miles per hour zero to sixty into snake oil. What if we didn't do that? What if we didn't do that? What if we what if we didn't do that? What if what if we didn't take advantage of the fact that our healthcare system shit and people have a lot of health anxiety and when they go to doctors they don't feel listened to. That you know, we could actually get proper medical care in this country and uh not rely on big tech who wants to monetize you and your your ailments. With the guise of being an alternative to actual doctors with medical training.

00:02:45
Speaker 3: Is it is it that they they want to just use us all as like little parts in their expense reports. We take it back because they just want to make money off of us, Yeah? Or is it because they can't read science literature and they get to all of it?

00:03:01
Speaker 1: Why not? Both? It's all of it.

00:03:03
Speaker 2: It's just all of it, all of it all at once. There's just like so many examples of it happening, and it feels like it's ramping up to the point where I feel insane. So like when when I was on your show at CEES, I was talking about gray market peptides and how people are injecting themselves with unapproved reda True Tide, which is a not yet approved drug, but they're buying it off or they're buying what they say is red a True Tide off of TikTok and all of these gray market sellers, and I'm just like, I'm like fairly certain that what you're getting is not actually red a True Tide based on like I don't know how drug production works because I've talked to pharmacists and you know, interviewed people.

00:03:46
Speaker 1: So generally, it feels like random people on TikTok are not usually like able to access things of this nature, like just like just a random general, random person just walking.

00:03:58
Speaker 2: Around just generally speaking. If you know, nurse practitioners are real registered nurses are you know, there's all these different types of nurse categories, and some of them are legitimate and have a lot of you know, they're able to prescribe medicines, they're able to talk you through those things. And some of them are like little Sally Joe Johnson from some place who just put a lot of letters after her name and is actually like a wellness guru. But she's saying like, based on the science and the research, and I can tell she has not done the science and the research because when she is reconstituting a peptide, she has not disinfected her hands while she rolls the stuff on her very dirty kitchen counter, which are videos that I've seen, videos I've seen.

00:04:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're gonna say, I'm upset that you're talking about my primary care physician that way, Like she works really really hard to give me all sorts of things that I know are real and not saltwater, and I inject them into my body. I look and feel I haven't been ensured since you know, a Democrat was in power. I mean, what's what's the problem here?

00:05:09
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of problems here, not least the grifters. Like there are real people online who are medical professionals, nurses, doctors, pharmacists who are giving decent medical information. I only know which one's decent, though, because I do this for a living. I think if you're the average person, you can see a lot of stuff together and some of it is true, and it's put next to stuff that is not true, and so by then it looks a lot smarter. Like I just did. I'm trying out this thing in my newsletter optimizer that I'm like, it's not called this, but I think of them as wellness marketing report cards. And I just did AG one, which you've heard on every podcast ad known to man.

00:05:52
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is.

00:05:55
Speaker 3: Brought to you.

00:05:57
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of athletics screens? It's AG one. It's a greens powder, like green powder. Yes, basically, would you like your ppe to be expensive? Because that's what it is, A supplement made from like a proprietary blend of ground up vegetables and some buzzwords like adaptogens and all.

00:06:19
Speaker 1: That, and that doesn't does it not even give you the nutritional benefits of vegetables?

00:06:23
Speaker 2: I mean it, I mean the fiber content is like two grams of fiber for a serving, which is not that much fiber.

00:06:30
Speaker 1: Honestly, Yeah, I feel like you can get.

00:06:32
Speaker 2: More fiber from that. But you know, like, I'm not saying that if you want to drink your daily greens because it's gonna get you in the habit and the mindset of doing something healthier for yourself later on in the day, there's no harm with that. But if you go to their research page and their marketing site, they're gonna say the next generation of AG one is clinically backed. What does that mean? Clinically backed does not mean what you think it means. It's not for a supplement. Do you know what a supplement is? It's not regulated by the fd fucking A. It's not regulated.

00:07:05
Speaker 1: It would Hugh Jackman lied to me, because.

00:07:09
Speaker 2: Yes, Hugh Jackman fucking lied to you because he's dancing on the AG one fucking things. He's saying superfood. Do you know what superfood is? It's a marketing label. It's not a scientific term. It's a marketing label. All it means it's a nutrient. It's a nutrient dense food. That's all that that means. It's a marketing label.

00:07:29
Speaker 4: This is.

00:07:31
Speaker 1: No. But this is the thing. It's like, it's so number one. Do to recommend it? Brand means nothing. I'm guessing which doctors, well war Victoria's so.

00:07:42
Speaker 2: Suberman, don't trust doctor Huan.

00:07:45
Speaker 1: You know, I had a I had a.

00:07:49
Speaker 5: No.

00:07:49
Speaker 2: I had a doctor who said, hey, have you listened to the Huberman podcast? And guess what I did? I fired them as an I found a new doctor. I didn't say you're fired, but I was like, I can't trust you if you believe that man who basically also partners with ag one to make AgZ, which is like a sleep thing. And it's just okay, look, okay, So I went through I went through their clinical studies, their quote unquote clinical studies.

00:08:13
Speaker 1: Well, did you say, so, here's the thing, good.

00:08:15
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. When you have a drug or a medical treatment, it goes through clinical trials to make sure it's efficacious and safe and to find out what the efficacious dose is. This is a supplement. It is not regulated, this is not required. So they're just doing voluntary clinic clinical studies to show marketing because it's like, hey, guess what we saw an improvement in the gut microbiome and all this other shit, which is like, again, your your gut is your second brain. Your gut and your brain talk to each other. It can affect your condition and your mood if you don't have the proper amount of gut bacteria in there that we have research saying this, okay, And so they're going, well, we got h strains of probiotics in in AG one. This is the original formula. Because their website is very very trickly tricksly laid out, and so I go there and I go like, okay, let me look at this pure research. You look at the graphs and this pure research that's linked there. Well, first of all, the sample size is twenty like what thirty people?

00:09:19
Speaker 1: Negligible? No, But just for the psyke of argument, how many people do you generally want in a clinical trial ten per statistically?

00:09:29
Speaker 2: Statistically you like one hundred and five or so, like one hundred people. We sometimes see that in the clinical trial you want as many people that will be statistically significant for the population that you're studying, So.

00:09:40
Speaker 1: You need a ton of paper.

00:09:41
Speaker 2: People is not significant. Thirty people is not significant.

00:09:46
Speaker 3: What is the population they're selling to everyone who might have tummy problems?

00:09:52
Speaker 6: Oh?

00:09:52
Speaker 3: I was like, if it's like dumbasses who exclusively get their medical advice from commercials on their Instagram and TikTok.

00:09:59
Speaker 2: That's still the higher population than thirty people to be sick. I was excusing the ability to speak. I can't say statistically because I'm so mad. Listen, Okay, So I go through their little I go through their little study. You have to go through the methodology. They're saying, double blind, placebo controlled. Okay, that's great, gold standard shore whatever. Thirty people. Hmm, let me look at the graphs, you know, what's the graphs of the placebo and the pre and post ag one use usage. Statistically, the bars are the same. Is the change in the gut?

00:10:35
Speaker 1: But Michael Biome in.

00:10:37
Speaker 2: The room with us, No, it's not nothing. Oh they pooped a little more, well, I should hope.

00:10:42
Speaker 3: So if you have.

00:10:43
Speaker 1: Fiber, if you are if you if you want to like have a gut, just have some Greek yoga in the morning, change my life.

00:10:51
Speaker 2: Oh you know what kills me?

00:10:53
Speaker 6: Kill me?

00:10:54
Speaker 3: You own you want to kill me?

00:10:55
Speaker 2: The line that said there was like an increase in these two strains of pro biotics because it's an ingredient and agy one.

00:11:05
Speaker 1: Wait, so they increased they measured something that they were adding dowk.

00:11:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like saying we found we found corn in your poop because you ain't corn.

00:11:17
Speaker 1: That's so cool. That's the thing. I get targeted with these like mushroom coffee things, or melotonin coffee or sleep coffee, like weird hot chocolate shit on it. There was a period when that was all they targeted me with and it didn't do shit. I do. I refuse to do it. I'm not paying thirty dollars for like five hot chocolate's go fuck yourself. It's disgusting.

00:11:40
Speaker 3: Yeah. I spent four dollars on bioten and it didn't do anything for my nails.

00:11:46
Speaker 2: Here's here's the thing. Supplements are not regulated, So is the supplement that you're actually getting actually the supplement in an efficacious amount. I don't fucking know. I took iary blend if it's a proprietary blend like ag one uses proprietary blend. You don't know how much of each thing is in there. You just don't.

00:12:12
Speaker 1: You don't.

00:12:13
Speaker 2: It's listen, if you're going to have greens powder because you want to kickstart your day and you want to have like a a healthy habit to start your day with, go off, queen. I love that for you. But to call it clinically backed, I find disingenuous. And I see a lot in wellness.

00:12:34
Speaker 3: It's always there. They are the ones set back to the study, right, like, we see this all.

00:12:38
Speaker 2: Did pay for the study. They've paid for it.

00:12:41
Speaker 3: All the fake meats said we're going to be the healthiest, We're going to be the best, We're going to be so good for you. And it was like, oh, who did the study?

00:12:47
Speaker 4: We did?

00:12:48
Speaker 3: Oh did you do any studies that you didn't directly pay for?

00:12:52
Speaker 2: No, I want to be fair. They did publish in peer reviewed journals, and nine out of ton times you are going to see people at least partially found the study. Because it's very hard, especially in this climate, to get research funding for a truly independent, peer reviewed study that's third party, that has no affiliation with the company and company at all. That's you know, it's it's good to look at it holistically with making sure they have really good methodology and you know that their findings make fucking sense and based on their marketing, so like, if if they were to be super honest about what they found, it would be like, you're not going to die from having AG one and there's a potential that you might see some benefit.

00:13:35
Speaker 1: Well, i'm reading here that, but it is what is a nutritional gap because it claims that there is a nutrient. It helps they demonstrate a statistically significant and positive impact on closing common nutrient gaps. It's just this just means you didn't have enough of the nutrient.

00:13:53
Speaker 2: Yes, So it's like, so this is what else pisses me off, So that that marketing site is just like the next gen of AG one is clinically backed, And then you scroll all the way down to the peer reviewed studies and you're like, oh, look look at these published peer reviewed studies. That is for the old formula of AG one, and all those statistics that you just saw on that that's for the new formulation of AG one. Guess how many peer reviewed published studies they have on that Zero because they only have abstracts that have been presented and like abstracts, Like I'm going through the abstracts and it's just like the sample sizes. I think the largest sample size is like one hundred and twenty people, but most of them are like twenty four people who are healthy.

00:14:34
Speaker 3: So is this kind of like okay, FDA approval grift in wearables?

00:14:40
Speaker 2: Okay, First of all, wearables are not FDA approved. They are FDA cleared because we approved.

00:14:44
Speaker 3: That's what I mean.

00:14:44
Speaker 1: It's how different all right now, Victoria got explain sorry.

00:14:48
Speaker 2: Because it's a marketing thing. Basically, you're just saying that it's adhered to a certain degree of safety and protocols. So yes, you're going to be hipocompliant. If you're FDA cleared, you are going to have done and some testing to make sure it's safe. And you only require this kind of clearance for class I believe class two medical devices or higher. Class two means intermediate risk. Class three is just like, oh, there's a significant risk in using this. And Class one is like a tongue depressor. So you have some Class one medical devices that are like the little stick that the doctor sticks in your mouth when you go like that. That's a Class one medical device in some cases, and those are just FDA listed the like class one FDA listed, Class two FDA cleared, and then you have stuff like drugs which must be FDA approved, so there is like a nuance to those particular meanings. But with wearables to get the clearance process, it's for stuff like screening. Right, So like you get an AKG and it says we're not diagnosing you with atrial fibrillation. But homeboy, maybe go to a doctor and see if these things make sense. That is a cleared generally an FDA cleared feature because it's either a class that's a class two feature basically, is what they're saying. Now, if you don't want to do that, because it's a very expensive process, you just go it's wellness. Wellness isn't regulated because it's for your information only. Education is fun. So whoop. A couple of months ago, they had this blood pressure feature that they came out, and the way that this feature looked, it looked like it was telling you your sisterly and your diastolic and your systolic reading and telling you whether your blood pressure was high, medium, or low. And the FDAY was like ha ha, no, you did not go through the clearance process for this. You're telling people what their blood pressure is, and was like, ha ha, No, this is a wellness feature. It's just for your education. This wasn't meant to give you a reading. And the FDA was like, it kind of looks like a reading. It kind of looks like you're giving a diagnostic judgment. So that needs to go through the clearest process, and uh whoop, was like, haha, we disagree, innovation. Yeah, And so then I just read a story on Political Today that Aura, the smart ring maker, is now a lobbying in Washington to get a third category of devices, like a separate third category of classification called digital health screeners that wouldn't go through the very cumbersome clearance process, but would uh be more legitimate wellness. So uh yeah, that makes sense, though I don't know that with the AURA, I don't know that that's going to make things clear or easier. I don't know, you know.

00:17:39
Speaker 3: I like, I think, I think for the customer, for the for the consumer, we need a total radical rethinking of all of this because it's gotten completely like the plot a thing. I think for the companies making a third device that's like, here are things that can identify but should never ever be taken by themselves, should always be used in contact with the doctor, like the ORR ring or the whoop band for blood pressure. I'm like that kind of makes sense.

00:18:07
Speaker 2: It's just the line is already blurry.

00:18:09
Speaker 3: I'm not hating enough.

00:18:10
Speaker 1: Sorry, I feel is.

00:18:12
Speaker 2: Already blurry between wellness. What is a wellness? Like the blood pressure I'm not the blood pressure, the blood oxygen reading on your Apple Watch? What is that? Is that FDA cleared or is that a wellness?

00:18:25
Speaker 1: I think that anything that measures your body should have to be far more rigorously checked because I have a different reading on my or ring, my Apple watch, my headphones, everything seems different. If I was relying on this information for anything other than punishing myself, I would be very worried, Like if I was sick in some way. Oh yeah, also, or this whole or being able to check if I'm sick. Thing it is never caught.

00:18:50
Speaker 3: It it has been caught when I was really depressed once.

00:18:54
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I I shouldn't laugh at that, But what did you say?

00:18:59
Speaker 3: Circle? No, it just it's I gotta I got a note and like I'm in bed at two o'clock in the afternoon, because you know, depressed sleeping, and I get a note and it's like, oh, you're having major symptoms. I'm like, yeah, no, shit, sirlock, I haven't gotten out of bed today. Thank you for joining. But like it just said my temperature.

00:19:15
Speaker 2: It's caught when I was coming down with something once and then it caught when I was incredibly anxious another time. I was just like, oh, you think I'm sick, Well, I'm sick with anxiety. One time, I'm just I'm just.

00:19:30
Speaker 3: I love it. I loved it when it was like, no, you're deathly sick, and I'm like, no, I'm just depressed. But honestly, thank you. Thank you for seeing depression as an illness or you were just like it wasn't intentional. Yeah, then I got out of bed. That's great.

00:19:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was because it said you needed to stand.

00:19:47
Speaker 3: Up pretty much. I got like the text and I was like.

00:19:52
Speaker 1: Every time I see that note being like you need to stand up, I genuinely want to fuck off every time. How dare you my ass goes with my ass? I've never seen No.

00:20:01
Speaker 2: I'm currently standing up because I've been sitting too long. But again this is my beat. So yeah, AnyWho, wellness really fucking pisses me off.

00:20:24
Speaker 1: This chat ChiPT health thing as well, Like I just think that these companies should be in prison, all of them for doing that stuff.

00:20:31
Speaker 3: The AI companies using these things as promises to help you get healthier mentally, physically and everything in between is such garbage because like, let me tell you something. You know what I've been doing for a while now, I've been messing with these AI guys. I love to have a chat. I love to be like, hey, this is what's going on in my life. How are we doing?

00:20:51
Speaker 1: How you feel good? To the chat AI?

00:20:55
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love always in like the incognitos so that it only saves a little bit of it, and then every time it like tells me to do something, and when I go back and tell it the next time in chat, it's forgotten.

00:21:05
Speaker 1: And I love it.

00:21:06
Speaker 3: Highly recommend Incognitum, but it's terrible advice. The advice is consistently terrible. The advice is consistently like, treat yourself better, and it's like I haven't gotten out of bed in three days, and it's like you're two in over. I love I mean I have, I've gotten out of bed in three days doing great, but like you know, you'd say something, you'd say something really extreme like that of like clearly you're not doing okay, and it's like, hey, it happens to all of us. You just sit in bed for another week and you're like.

00:21:32
Speaker 7: Claude, No, Claude, what are we doing? That's bad advice as just the kind of shit advice you could get from literally anyone. Oh, I hadn't thought about feeling better when I felt sad. I thought I've been deliberately feeling sad more because I thought that's what would make me feel better.

00:21:49
Speaker 1: Thank you, chat GPT. It's just fucking And.

00:21:53
Speaker 3: Then when you ask it, you ask it for your you're like, okay, I want to work on my fitness. V gives much better advice every single time. Like that's what your your your optimizer, like fancy line should be. I don't know what those are called tagline, but it needs to just be yeah, tagline. Your tagline needs to be better advice than claude or open AI.

00:22:16
Speaker 1: Well did you see that the chat GPT ad for running? When it was like no, it was like, here's some running advice and one of it it's like run with someone else, so you're accountable run three times a week. It's like, fucking hell, I'm so glad we all spending fifty thousand dollars a GPU on this bullshit.

00:22:34
Speaker 3: There was a yeah, it was like you can just get that by Google.

00:22:36
Speaker 2: There was a Wall Street Journal article about runner, which isn't They market themselves as an AI powered running app, and they were acquired by Strava last year. If you're on running talk at all, you've probably seen people talk about Runna. It's massively popular. And the Wall Street Journal article was hilarious because it's like people are getting injured using this because they listen to the AI and like, I've used Runna and I have a very hard time sticking with that app because I find the program way too aggressive. So they came out with like a new mode that's like, hey, we made it less aggressive because a lot of you were getting injured and complaining. And I was like, ha ha, it's almost like to use runap properly, you also have to know when to ignore it, which is not the point of what they say a I should be. So I also hate AI and fitness.

00:23:28
Speaker 1: Well, I mean yes, It's also like the thing with fitness is even with a good routine, even with a good like I have had to I did the same routine for a year. I've had to pair it back because I kept getting injured because I'm getting older. Like, you actually have to be able to like know when your body feels.

00:23:45
Speaker 3: That's that's the worst part of it is. Yeah, Like you want it to be like a trainer, and it can talk, it can pretend to be well and can it can give you that things. But the trainer is going to go, hey, I noticed you went really hard today and your knees in flat.

00:24:00
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe for the rest of the will be like no gain I've had every single but AI is always going to be a bad tread yeah, because it's not going to see it right.

00:24:11
Speaker 2: It's I mean, they keep they keep saying that they're going to make it better. I've yet to test an AI coach that I feel would give me the advice that I actually need. I have to I have to sit there with myself and be like, oh, how are we feeling today in our body? Where are we feeling pain? Should I push it? I could push it, but what's my goal. You know, I got to have this conversation with myself and how many of these constantly.

00:24:33
Speaker 3: AI coaches that you see are like actually programmed from the ground up to help with this, and how many are just large language models with like the horror one right where it's just kind of like the large language model with a little bit of fancy dish slapped on it. So you're like, oh, I'm not getting gety.

00:24:51
Speaker 2: Most of them are just captain obvious.

00:24:54
Speaker 1: Promis problems though, because you can't really for you to do a trainer that was a special you would have to have a shit ton of words.

00:25:03
Speaker 2: And they're also fucking chatty too. I'm just like, Jesus Christ, you need to like give me several less paragraphs about like I don't I don't need this shit. And then you'll tell them like, please stop being so chatty, please be more concise, and they're like, oh, yeah, okay, I got it. Two prompts later, just eight hundred word essay about your fitness.

00:25:22
Speaker 3: They hear you, and they want to gently push back on your plans for your exercising routine.

00:25:27
Speaker 2: I just mean, you'll betver forget that we have different ais, but clearly but like, it's just just.

00:25:33
Speaker 3: Clod's so nice.

00:25:36
Speaker 2: I refuse to let them be nice to me. I say, they are not allowed to be complimentary beyond one percent. I'm only allowed to get one. That's because complimenting from these dipshit bots.

00:25:46
Speaker 3: I'm using incognito mode. It remembers nothing, right, it is incredible, so you can you'll tell it anything it's gonna forget from the next time, so you never program it. So Claude is always just like, hey friend, I'm just like that one person who just sort of smiles and nods at you a lot, and like.

00:26:05
Speaker 2: That's not very helpful. All I mean, I don't know that.

00:26:07
Speaker 3: It's not very helpful. I don't know. I don't love it from like a usefulness standpoint. I love it as like a sociological experiment. Does that make sense? I'll have to play with it and kind of be like, oh, what are you trying here? What are you hoping to accomplish? But nine times out of ten it does not actually help me. Every time I've had AI help me, try to help me with fitness, try to help me with sleeping better, try to help me with writing garbage garbage.

00:26:33
Speaker 2: Because you're always getting regressed to the mean. And when it comes to health, well, then we're going to go against the wellness versus the medical thing again, because if they're giving you diagnostic advice, they could be liable for that. So they're only going to give you the most generic regression to the mean wellness advice that applies to everyone and is common sense. And it's like, well if it's common sense, well I didn't fucking need you to tell me it's common sense that I like. That's why a lot of the AI fitness is just regard to hated book reports. It's it's the AI going like, hey girl, you ran three point one miles today and this time that's faster than your other time, and yay, that's not what I need from you.

00:27:13
Speaker 3: Thank you, Pablo.

00:27:14
Speaker 2: My cat is screaming at me.

00:27:15
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just I would never tell these things anything about myself. I just like I've naturally my autism screen are built into my brain just for a few it's just like I cannot trust I would never tell a website my secrets.

00:27:32
Speaker 3: Oh, I get that. I get that, and sometimes I just do No, that's fine, And I'm like, you know what, let's hope you never leaked the incognito mode stuff. Let's hope you're real.

00:27:44
Speaker 1: Also, are you're incogneo mode unless you're just like I'm Alex Kranz. Let me tell you every time I'm.

00:27:49
Speaker 3: Like, Hi, my name's Alex kran Hello, look me up real fast, Okay, now let's chat.

00:27:56
Speaker 1: And yeah, I just also with fit like this has been a big part of my life for the last few years especially, and it's like the best advice I've got is from regular people who have been like, you're going too hard or just stop heart hurting yourself. That's the biggest thing. Not like I'm self harming, but like I would push myself too far. It would always be like my wrist hurts. It's like, well if you tried not fucking boxing, dickhead, And it's like, I don't think Chad Gpt would say. Mostly it's like friends of mine being like, yeah, you need to rest because in my ahnt in a little person here in my hand. I'm like, I should train more, I should lose weight, Like I push myself quite hard. A large language model telling me anything about that isn't gonna help, partly because I'll be like I'm not a website does not impress me, like I don't trust your judgment. And also most of the time, the mean advice around lifting is dog shit. I'm so sorry, but the best lifting advice I've ever got was lift volume, not heavy. And then people be like, oh, I like lifting heavy things putting back down it's fine, but it's like, does not work for a lot of people. I've met a lot of people.

00:28:59
Speaker 2: Mean, you're you're not in the in the church of CrossFit progressive overload.

00:29:06
Speaker 1: What is that? Just well, I know about CrossFit, but I saw how they do pull ups and I just stopped listening to them.

00:29:14
Speaker 2: Okay, Like, I'm not gonna shit on CrossFit. They do some it's very hard to It's.

00:29:21
Speaker 3: A philosophy of working out that is very different from a lot of other There we go and is it it's really all about pushing is pushing yourself to your physical limits, which for some people that can be a really useful thing. If you are over the age of thirty five, maybe be careful because you're going to hurt your I mean, and it's like, you're the age of thirty five, go to your cross.

00:29:47
Speaker 2: I think CrossFit it has like it's because it's a franchise, and so each CrossFit gym can be very different. I think there's like a million different crossfits out there, and it depends on which CrossFit person you know in your life as to what CrossFit they do. Some of them do the Marjorie Taylor a green version of cross CrossFit. Some of them do a much more reasonable version of it.

00:30:08
Speaker 3: I love her little pull up.

00:30:11
Speaker 2: They're like kipping pull up, That's.

00:30:15
Speaker 1: What I'm saying, those those weird CrossFit the ones where you're just like, I'm gonna break my fucking nick.

00:30:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god.

00:30:22
Speaker 3: The little it looks like the way I would try to do a pull up as a child and you'd be told no, it.

00:30:28
Speaker 1: Looks like not being able to do a pull up.

00:30:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what it looks like.

00:30:34
Speaker 2: It's an interesting it's an interesting look. But yeah, no, So it's it's the the other thing that I'm going to get back to, the hate and thoughtfulness more hate. I hate wellness influencers, Like not every wellness influencer. There's some that are like not horrible and who actually talk about science and are quite responsible and like thoughtful and they're well in this content. They are not the majority. The majority is just like.

00:31:00
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I drink ad one every day and I have so much energy now. Or they'll be like, oh my god, come with what I eat in a day and it's just disordered eating.

00:31:11
Speaker 2: Or you know, they're.

00:31:13
Speaker 6: Proteinting protein max and it's like, well protein is nice, but you do need to eat your other macros and or you know, it's just these little nuggets of science or nutritional.

00:31:26
Speaker 2: Like best practices that get buried with disordered eating habits that get buried with pseudo science that are just like not that helpful for people to know, but it sounds real. And then you know, because they are your parasocial friend, a lot of people start to trust them, and then they start doing stupid things in their life. And these these are all people who are just generally, by and large miss or underserved by the healthcare system. They don't want to go to a doctor who's going to dismiss their pain for the bazillions time because that's the only thing that's affordable in their insurance network. But I just really hate that one. Influencers, whether they mean to or not. I'm sure some of them are well meaning. Whatever they are profiting off of your discomfort and your search for something that's more affordable. I hate that because a lot of them don't take the time to do their due diligence, and so they're taking sponsored money from these powders that you don't need objectively, but saying, oh my god, this is how I cured everything holistically because I have to eat clean. What is eating clean? What does wash your fucking vegetable? Like just eating healthy? But they're like, I eat clean, I don't eat processed foods. I don't eat sugar. I don't eat this. And you know a little bigger and moderation is fine sugar everyone, or it's people who say like, oh my god, fruit has a high glycemic index, so it's bad for you.

00:32:52
Speaker 3: It's a fucking fruit, Like it's fine. I once had a doctor. I was with a diabetic patient who's a family member, and I was once with them and the doctor was like, they can never eat a banana. And I was like, what if their blood sugar is low that they can eat a banana? And I'm like, okay, so they just die like they can eat it. They can eat a banana, they just shouldn't eat it if their blood sugar is high or they're not, you know, thinking about it, But who is as culpable. Is it these fitness influencers or is it the entire industry, including the Googles and the YouTube in the higher industry.

00:33:28
Speaker 1: I actually think it's one abstraction higher, which ties into AI as well, which is yes, everyone wants a simple solution. They want to work out a way to lose weight that is not working out consistently and eating less calories. Though I realized it's not even as flat as that, because everyone's body is kind of different. They want something that will give them a quick answer without them learning anything. They want the fitness plan that will tell them something they don't.

00:33:56
Speaker 3: It's called GLP one.

00:33:59
Speaker 2: And for some day hit you over the head.

00:34:01
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, fucking rocks. I think. I think when it's used right and when it's exactly yeah, you know what if it's someone for white loss and they're using it with the instruction of a docta, things great, Like it's just as long as as long as you're not just like, I don't know, getting it illegally off of TikTok, and illegally is probably not the term, but like, well, that's KLP three.

00:34:25
Speaker 2: Well, no, you can also go get compounded versions of GLP one, which are in a dubious state at this point in time because it used to be okay to compound it, and then when there was a shortage the FDA I loved that, and then once the shortage ended they were like no, no, no, So then these compounding pharmacies started, like altering the formula a little bit, adding a little bit of vitamin B twelve or just different components in it so that they weren't like carbon copies of what the pharmaceutical companies were like, hey, hey, this is copyrighted. Fuck off. But you know, like that's also in of itself a problem because a lot of why are people going to these compounding pharmacies for their golp ones, It's because insurance companies make you fit a very narrow criteria, even though it could potentially help you with a number of different things. Like we have to understand the golp ones are very recent for non diabetic use, Like there's not a whole lot of data a year, right for not not a year, but it's like the span of medication not that long, Like you know, scientists study these things for a very long time, and I think we're about it. What a decade fifteen years on GLPS, less for the for the the manjarros and all that stuff. But it's like, you know, we don't the vast majority of the clinical studies that have been done on these medications have been on OBEs or diabetic populations. We don't know what a bodybuilder who is just taking this to like optimize themselves, we don't know what the impact on their bodies will be. We find some promising research with people with and fatty liver disease, which I have both of those, which is why my doctor is also like, you know, GOP makes sense for you and the metabolic dysfunction that you have. So it's not that doctors aren't using these in the arsenals to treat people who fit certain criteria, but there are people who could help, who could benefit from it, who don't fit these arbitrary insurance criteria, and so we have created this market, this alternative market for them to go to. That can be fine in some spaces if you do your research and you do your vetting, and you find a legitimate compound pharmacy that follows the rules or you could get it from some gray market guy named Bobo timb and I don't know what you're putting in your body. So like we're creating these things because we have made things so restrictive, so bad, and then we are monetizing the alternative solution, which is, you know, ultimately giving a lot of health anxiety to be because why should they have to track their p to know their hydration? Just look at the color of your pee, I don't know, like you know, instead of putting the systemic things in place that could help people with their health and marketing these as tools, it's like all of a sudden, Oh, you can get your blood test because maybe you live in a rural area and you don't have time to go to the doctor, so will or will get your blood test for you. And now you can track your metabolites and your blood in the Aura app with no doctor's advice, with no doctor's advice. Well you could ask maybe the AI and the app or whatnot. And it's not just Ora. There's a lot of companies that are kind of pursuing this line and it comes from a place of like, yes, there is a gap in the healthcare system. Traditionally, we're trying to fill that gap, and there are some people who that will help. I'm not going to lie and say that there's no people that that could benefit. But at the same time, the vast majority of healthy people don't need that. They don't need that health anxiety in their life, but we're just putting it on them because it's like, well, if you don't, you're going to die. And so it's just like I would love for there to be more common sense and wellness. I would love us to have responsible conversations about whether or not you need to track X y Z seventy bio markers. You don't need to track for seventy fucking biro markers. You really don't.

00:38:15
Speaker 1: That date will not help you.

00:38:17
Speaker 2: It won't, it won't.

00:38:20
Speaker 3: I have is it kind of like have you guys done it? Like, because I'm just curious? Is it like when you go and you would pay to give someone all of your genetic materials so they could test it to find out whether or not, like who what your family was right, like your family made up?

00:38:36
Speaker 2: We call it longevity tech, which is just another word for fucking bullshit sorry wellness, but like it's it's this weird you know, who is the bloody baroness who's bathing in the blood of virgins to appear younger and live longer. It's the same kind of fear from Silicon Valley where they're like, we are deathly afraid of death. So longevity tech and you can optimize your life and you can study all these metrics about yourself and then you'll be able to live a better, healthier life without having to go to the doctor as often. And it's just like, there's a lot of problems with this narrative and you have Maha co co adopting it in some ways. I've seen health tech become weirdly right wing over the last couple of weeks and months, where I'm just like, I don't know how I feel about this. I don't know how I feel about our sk Junior going like every American where wearable.

00:39:28
Speaker 1: I'm just like, it's post bullshit. We can't know everything. There is a world of mystery. And also even knowing all of this stuff doesn't do anything. I've said this performing podcast. I have four years of sleep data, if not more, and I cannot tell you anything other than generally I sleep about seven and a half hours. No, I'm I'm that's my actual secret to all of this. It's the only reason I can put ten thousand words a week is I sleep seven and a half to eight hours a night without fail sleep. And it's funny because it's like, of all the fitness things sleep supplements, sorry, different supplements. I've tried weird tricks sleep. I don't even mean it in like a facetious way. I just mean like, yeah, this it's the one thing I can be like, Yeah, when I do that, I feel better. When I don't sleep, I feel way worse.

00:40:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that. That's why they say sleep, diet, and exercise. It just always boils down to like those three things. And yes, there are conditions that kind of make it difficult for certain people over others. If you have metabolic dysfunction, yeah, well the diet part is going to be a little harder for you, and there are treatments for that. That makes sense. But it fundamentally will always boil down to sleep, diet, and exercise.

00:40:59
Speaker 1: I don't want to be clear about something though, because it was lost earlier. We've had emails about it. I think it's fine. There were some people who I've got emails from I forget when it was brought up in the past where it's like, oh, the judgment of people who use GLP to lose weight, I think it's fucking I've had weight issues my whole life. I think, however, people want to lose weight as long as it's done in a safe manner, as long.

00:41:20
Speaker 2: As it's done.

00:41:22
Speaker 3: It was like, I'm on one and it can stick. It's absolute magic. It's fucking I love it. It makes sense to me.

00:41:29
Speaker 1: It's not depriving diabetics of getting the things they need exactly right. That's the one thing.

00:41:34
Speaker 5: Like.

00:41:35
Speaker 3: As long as the diabetics and people with metabolic issues who need it to survive are having it and we don't have a shortage, it's really great for me. It's like, oh, I talk about it. I call it the wing index. We's had to hear about this before. There's something called the.

00:41:49
Speaker 2: Wing talked about. Yeah, the wing how much, how many.

00:41:52
Speaker 3: And how many wings do you eat before you were on a GLP one versus how many do you eat after? Because some of us, like you and I were talking, I was like a fifteen wing girly. Hell yeah, And now I'm a six, and I look at that, I'm like, that's sad. But then I'm like, was fifteen good? No, it was delicious.

00:42:12
Speaker 1: It was yeah, I was gonna I was gonna say, it's like it was the best thing in the world.

00:42:16
Speaker 2: Do I miss wing index? No, my wing index was four and now it's half of one. That's not great. I'm having a different I'm having a different experience with GPS and krantzis.

00:42:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's different.

00:42:31
Speaker 2: And also I didn't want to be on one. I was told to be on one because of metabolic dysfunction was causing weight gain, and so I needed the extra help to kind of fix the metabolic dysfunction and reverse some negative trends in my liver. So that like a very lengthy conversation I had with my doctor over three four months, so you know, it was an informed decision to go on it. And then as soon as I went on it, I started having clown nightmares and that was not fun.

00:43:03
Speaker 3: And I did not realize that's why I had nightmares. But yeah, GLP one can create really vivid nightmares. Early on, I thought I was just having a moment and V told me and I was like.

00:43:14
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought it's not.

00:43:17
Speaker 2: Oh no. I had a dream that my spouse's ex was chasing me on a cruise ship with a knife, and I was like, this bitch is crazy. And then she turned into Pennywise, the clown from it, and I was like, oh no, she really crazy. And then I woke up almost screaming. And apparently it's because like a small percentage of people who take gop ones have crazy dreams on them. And like I was on the intro dose when I was getting these side effects and my doctor was like, you know, most people don't get side effects on the intro dose. You are special girl, And I was like, oh cool, great, So you're telling me that food aversion is not normal on the intro dose because I can't look at food sometimes and it's a very it's very troubling.

00:44:04
Speaker 1: This is why I like the doctor I've had for the last few years in Vegas, because I don't get any of this normal people. I don't hear about the mean on the media and I just did. He doesn't try and pretend that I am like similar to other people because I am not. Like it's and most of the time it's just me being like is this bad? And it's like, no, it's I feel like the entire problem of everything we're talking about in these conversations is this trying to push everybody towards the mean, trying to make everyone like everyone else in a way that's literally not like not like. I feel like the mean is also a terrible way to do health in general. Just the amount of food do you need.

00:44:49
Speaker 3: Society? Right, Like, we're all different. Everybody's got different things. Some people got heart issues, some people got fatty livers, some people got the diabetes. Sorry, I'm of an age that I will always think of him every single time. Uh yeah, mister Brimley. And you know, everybody is a little different. And when we don't allow for that, when we when these fitness influencers and these these companies push things and say this is going to fix you, that's it's a it's a flat out lie because they don't know and they can't promise that, and they shouldn't. And like, I know, we we were kind of going all through it. I still get really upset with the company's like Google, who are profiting enormously off of this stuff. They have no issue just raking in billions in cash from advertisers and from these influencers and from viewpoints just to make a buck. They're just like, yeah, this is just an industry. You are the productor found. I hate that.

00:45:48
Speaker 2: I hate that you are the product.

00:45:50
Speaker 1: Now.

00:45:50
Speaker 2: Your attention is a product, your body is a product. Everything about you is being monetized to be a product. And it's like you don't do the buying anymore. You are the data. Like smart glasses. Why do they want to put cameras on these smart glasses so that they can get data from the camera. Why they want.

00:46:06
Speaker 3: Everybody always view wants to like record their first person point of view, of course, which looks like the commercial said.

00:46:15
Speaker 1: It looks like boiled ass. Every here's a hater moment. I think the video from those things looks weird. I think it looks strange. I don't like it. I feel like I'm sitting on top of somebody's head, I mean, as you are. Yeah, yeah, I mean I know, I know that's why like it's but that's the most lessoned feeling. I don't want to bet.

00:46:38
Speaker 3: Just like the vertical video wasn't attractive, right, like.

00:46:41
Speaker 2: Well, now we're all used to vertical video.

00:46:42
Speaker 1: I like, yes, I like my sixty nine situation sixteen ten.

00:46:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I want a.

00:46:50
Speaker 1: Classic wide frame. Yeah, it's just I'm I am really I do think we're going to like no one, no one fucking believes me. But I do think a lot of this stuff is going to go away the moment they realize how actually expensive it is to run this shit. And on top of the fact that just no one's really making any money out of this AI health stuff because where's the product. It's like, yeah, I owe the product, yeah, but like you getting off, but they don't know how to productize it from there. They don't know how to like make a ton of money from that, evidence being that nobody has made a ton of money from that. Even clawed code, the supposedly most important thing ever, that is only about one hundred million dollars a month in revenue. Andrew Hupeman probably makes that from various snake oils he boils in his garage.

00:47:41
Speaker 2: The thing about health, the thing about health, though it is the most valuable thing you have, you will I think Alexandro Kasio Cortez said something about along these lines several years ago, and it's stuck in my brain where it's just like you will. Most people, unless you know most people right, will basically do anything to live a little bit longer. That's rich people, that's poor people. Nobody wants to die. I mean like there's a few select there's a select few who uh, court death for whatever reason, but most people don't want to die. They want just a little bit more time. And so health is your most valuable possession that you have. It's priceless because as soon as your health goes, your quality of life goes. And I think companies know this, and they know if they can scare you, if they can fearmonger you into saying we have a solution so that you will live longer, people will pay out the notes for that. And they're just waiting to get that thing that will be like, oh, you will do this. Like smart watches, when it was just counting your your steps didn't fucking matter. They were having a hard time getting people to buy those things. The fashion apple watch addition, Yeah that didn't work either. But as soon as the Apple Watch was like we'll save your life if you have a cardiac event, yeah, people started buying them.

00:48:54
Speaker 1: They started Yeah that was kind of cool though, like that it could do the EKG thing, And but I'm sure.

00:49:02
Speaker 3: I would argue Apple is a big reason why we have this. I mean, obviously there's like the Alex Jones and the Joe Rogans of the world and everything like that, and and the whole like influencer economy and love to push through your protein powders. But a big part of this was Apple. Back this is my hater section. A big part of this was Apple. When Apple came out, they launched that watch. It did fuck all. Nobody knew what to use it for. I had one. I called it my great regret capital letters every single time, even when I said it out loud, And that was because it was useless and they were desperate to find a use for it. They found a use with the EKG stuff, and it was a genuinely useful thing. People started buying it for that reason, right. I cannot tell you how many people I know who bought a watch for an elderly parent so that they could have that extra safety net. And now they're like, Okay, well, we still have to make money off of this, but we already did that, and we have to grow, and we have to keep growing. If we don't growth, we don't grow, we die, and so what do they do? They push further into wellness in places where Apple and a lot of these companies have zero business being and they're doing it exclusively because they're like, we need new markets to sell our products. At that's it.

00:50:11
Speaker 2: I will say Apple is much more responsible in the wellness space than other They do a lot in clinical research. They are very clear about what their products do and don't do. I do not hate Apple as much in this space as others, which I might call it, but they did. They kick it off. They kicked off the advanced health features. But like, that's the again, here's the difference. Here's the distinction health features versus wellness features. They're different, They're different, there's a different grade.

00:50:43
Speaker 3: Di isn't Apple one of the ones who did push wellness because some of their features couldn't weren't immediately approved, weren't being like yeah, they just weren't approved, and so they were like, oh, this is a wellness feature.

00:50:55
Speaker 2: Initially, Well, it was more like they were they. I wouldn't say it was them that were the first ones because EKG I think was the first time we saw like a big difference in terms of like the alerts. Anything that is diagnostic, they very much go through the it's not diagnostic, but anything that's diagnostic adjacent they will go through the clearness process for. But again to answer the question I asked you guys earlier, blood oxygen, that's a wellness feature because there's nothing that you do with that information. It's just a spot check. It's not telling you that you sleep apnya, it's not telling you that you have anything. It is for your fun that you get to see that what your blood oxygen is. And so that is a wellness feature. And okay that Apple risks.

00:51:35
Speaker 3: A lot of time and effort and lawsuits to put into their watches, and are now aren't they still embroiled in a lawsuit about it.

00:51:42
Speaker 2: They're still embroiled in a lawsuit about it, but they're no longer banned from importing it. So you know, you can still have those features on the thing. But you know, blood oxygen, I don't think is that useful of a metric. If you need it, just get a pulse look similar. I don't think a smart watch is you know, I've had some readers tell me that they find it useful for their parents with respiratory issues. But I just think you should have a pulse oximiter because this is going to be a gruesome story. But when my mom was dying, like actually the day she died, it was because she was having respiratory failure from als. Her lungs were paralyzed basically, and she couldn't breathe and get enough oxygen into them, so her blood oxygen was dropping rapidly, and you know, I had the pulse oximeter, and she was getting to a point where her blood saturation levels were like in the high forties to low sixties, which is death time because anything under ninety you're supposed to go to a hospital. So you know, that was my family's full of doctors, So this was supervised, right, My family's full of doctors, and they all knew what that meant. And you know, I'm a Warriables reporter. My cousin was freaking out. She thought the pulse oximitter couldn't possibly be saying forty eight because that meant death. So I was like, well, I got Apple watch, let me put this on my dying mother, and let me tell you, I couldn't read it. There was no reading. Hell did it put up an emoji or anything. It just was like it just said it couldn't get a reading and put it.

00:53:13
Speaker 1: On and immediately said you should try standing.

00:53:16
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:53:16
Speaker 2: I mean like, this is not a story that I frequently tell, just because it's so it's a sad story. And then I'm also just like I feel guilt because I'm just like, oh, I put an Apple Watch on my mom.

00:53:28
Speaker 1: You no, no, no, bullshit. You you tried to you tried to confirm something. You actually tried and you tried you confirm also your mother was dying. You could have done anything in that case, Like you reacted more normally than I would if such a thing was happening.

00:53:46
Speaker 2: I had my don't worry. I reacted not normally later.

00:53:48
Speaker 1: That night, again completely forgivable. Yeah, yeah, kind it to yourself.

00:53:55
Speaker 2: But no, I was just very much like, well, what are what are the opportunities for wearables tester to be with someone who is very identically identifiably below ninety in terms of a pulse sox simiter and to see whether this feature actually works on someone who is so low. And my my finding was no, this is why you need a pulsex cimeter, because if you are someone who has to worry about that. You shouldn't really rely on a smart watch.

00:54:22
Speaker 3: Well, it's the same with like I was gonna say, the same dark store, similarly dark, but my mom's still alive. But she had she had a stroke and it had to go on a heart monitor and it's and she was like, well, why can't I just use my Apple Watch because it's got a fib detection, And they were like, because it's a garbage heart rate monitor. You need one like over your heart, we want to see every bit of that thing. Your wearables aren't going to do that. And she her mind was blown and she hated it.

00:54:50
Speaker 2: And it's only for healthy people with a baseline, Like that's that's that's all these wearables are. It's just establishing what your baseline is. And like, accuracy is actually not the most important thing for most wearables. It's consistency. So if it's consistently inaccurate by the same amount, you can still use it to judge changes in your baseline. But yeah, obviously I live and breathe the shit, so I get really mad when I see influencers just talking out their fucking ass about clinically back this, like it's clinically proven. Nothing's clinically proven. Clinically proven doesn't mean shit. It's a marketing term, especially, you know, I actually interviewed a doctor and I was just like, what is clinically whatever meant? And then she was just like, there's a whole wide range of what clinically backed or clinically tested means. It could be in certain cases, depending on how a study is designed, it could be someone just self reporting their results in a scientific setting and that is technically clinical. So you know, next time you hear clinically validated, clinically proven and marketing material, I want you to put your little thinking cap on and go but is it really is it really mean?

00:56:06
Speaker 1: Look?

00:56:06
Speaker 2: What does that mean? What are they actually studying? How are they validating this thing?

00:56:11
Speaker 1: Like?

00:56:12
Speaker 2: I just want you to take the extra critical thinking step and just don't go like wow science words like That's that's all I want for people to to. Next time you see an influencer in a Lululemon set going oh my god, this greenspowder, I ask clinically proven to healthier cognition.

00:56:30
Speaker 3: No, that's hold into that whole four humors thing we've been seeing right where everybody's talking about your cortisol and and all your other different foremos I hear one more time?

00:56:41
Speaker 2: If I hear one more someone talking about inflammation.

00:56:46
Speaker 3: I was like, if it was this easy to release our cortisol, no one would have stress. Like you know how you get rid of cortisol, lower your cortisol lovers levels, be less stressed, and exercise.

00:56:56
Speaker 1: That's it that I've been getting random itching, I fall asleep, and I've read so many things like, yeah, maybe you're stressed. It's like cool, thank you.

00:57:05
Speaker 2: What do you have dry skin moisturized? Do you moisturize yea, I do?

00:57:10
Speaker 1: I do, and it doesn't work, So I mean it's probably something fun and from someone's going to email me. If you email me and say it's like a just a just want to be clear. Any listeners who email and try and diagnose me, I don't want to fucking know. And I'm gonna blast you everyone em any kind of diagnosis. I must be fucking clear. I will. I will light you up like a Christmas tree. And on that note, I think we can call it there as we've had a wonderful hater session. Victoria's song of Course from the Verge Victoria always a pleasure to have you.

00:57:45
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I hate everything.

00:57:49
Speaker 1: And Alex Grans love having you too.

00:57:51
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I hated every part of this podcast so and in every part of the world. Right now?

00:57:59
Speaker 5: Did I?

00:57:59
Speaker 3: Did I get my hair up perfect?

00:58:01
Speaker 1: That was great? The hatometer I've got going is absolutely losing it.

00:58:05
Speaker 3: But this was lovely.

00:58:06
Speaker 1: Thank you everyone for listening. This has been lovely. You'll have monologue of course this week, and yeah, catch you, sir. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T T O S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com, or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

00:58:55
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com.

00:58:59
Speaker 4: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.