Finding solace in the stars

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Physics world. Hello and welcome to
the Physics Worlds Stories podcast.

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I'm Andrew G. Lester, and if you're
a regular listener to this podcast,

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you'll know that each month I'm tasked
with finding a story from the world

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of physics.

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It had been the intention for this episode
to be about when research goes wrong,

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but in the process of researching
that particular episode,

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I discovered the story of Charity Woodrum,

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the subject of a new film
space, hope and charity,

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directed by Sandy Cummings. We'll
hear from Sandy later in the episode,

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but the film tells the remarkable
story of charity Woodrum following a

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heartbreaking family tragedy.

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My name is Charity Woodrum, and I'm a,

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a grad student at the
University of Arizona,

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getting my PhD in
astronomy and astrophysics.

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My specific field is called Galaxy
Evolution. You know, in general,

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we're looking to explain
how galaxies form and evolve

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over cosmic time. Um, more specifically,

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my research focuses on what's called
the quenching of galaxies, um,

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because if you look at the population
of galaxies, there's two main types.

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There's star forming galaxies,
and there's quiescent galaxies.

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And in the early universe, most of the
galaxies are all forming lots of stars.

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But as time passes,

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we start to see these quiescent galaxies
appearing that have stopped forming

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stars.

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And so my thesis is trying to explain
the physical processes that are

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causing these galaxies to stop forming
stars, and we call this quenching. Wow.

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That's quite a thing. Yeah. Wow. So, uh,

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can you tell me what drew you
to that in the first place?

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Well, um, I took a non-traditional
track, I guess. Um,

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the first time I went to school,
actually, I became a registered nurse,

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and then I worked as a
registered nurse for a few years,

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but I wasn't really able to
separate it from my personal life.

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It, I would go home, you
know, very sad, you know,

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because at least once a week you
would see something extremely tragic,

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and then daily there were
sad things that would happen.

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And so I just wasn't able, you
know, to handle it emotionally.

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And in high school, I was
good at math. And so, um,

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I started reading books to get my mind
off of, you know, the nursing job,

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and came across popular science books
by Carl Sagan and Steven Hawking.

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And, you know, I just felt this draw
that I, I just felt like I had to do it.

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Um, and around the same time I was,
you know, pregnant with my son,

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and I wanted him to
follow his biggest dreams,

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and so I decided I had to lead by example.

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And so actually when I
was nine months pregnant,

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I went into the academic counselor and
asked what it would take for me to get my

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bachelor's in physics. So
that's when it all started.

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Just step back a slightly Carl Sagan.

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Well, you know, of course I, uh, would
watch his show and everything, and just,

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um, I liked the perspective
that astronomy offered,

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and I think he was really good at, um,

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getting that across because it allowed
me to step outside of, you know,

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the hu the human condition,

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which w is what I was faced facing every
day as a nurse. But with astronomy,

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you get to just, you know, step
outside of that and try to,

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and think about things on much
larger scales from. And I,

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I just wanted that perspective, I
guess, to just, instead of going home,

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thinking about the human suffering
I had seen, I'd rather, you know,

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go home and be in awe of the
universe, I guess. Mm-hmm.

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I, I can see on the shelf behind you is
Cosmos, the, uh, the book of the series,

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the original one there. Is that the
specifically the one you read that,

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that you were talking about?

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Yeah, yeah. As well as a brief history
of time by Stephen Hawking. Yeah.

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Okay. So your life is the story,

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or your life so far, at
least, is the story of a film.

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The universe is just so huge.

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It feels like there's gotta be a
reason we're here. When I was a kid,

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our home life was tumultuous.

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I would often go out and
look up and it would calm me.

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I remember asking one of my teachers lift
off how I could work for NASA someday,

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and I remember him chuckling. I
had always wanted to work for nasa,

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but at some point it felt
like it was too far of a goal

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for me.

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She calls me out of the
blue from Texas. I'm like,

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charity, why are you there? And
she's like, well, I, I fell in love.

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He was basically the most caring
person I had ever met in my life.

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Well, I'll start before I
guess the documentary was
even a thing. So when I was,

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um, an undergrad at the University
of Oregon and physics, um,

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my sophomore year my father died,
and then my junior year, um,

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I, we took a family vacation and, uh,

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at the Oregon coast and
there was an accident,

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and I lost both my husband
and my son on the same day.

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I remember waking up in an ambulance
and not knowing how I got there,

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and I felt like a pounding on my head.

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And then I opened my eyes and realized
that I was like hitting myself in the

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head. I just didn't want to believe
that they were gone. At first,

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I was hospitalized for about a week.
It, you know, it was too much to handle,

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and I would just scream. So
they hospitalized me and, um,

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sedated me for about a week. And then,
you know, the weeks following that,

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I, you know, spent a lot of time
on the couch, didn't eat much, um,

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didn't sleep much. Uh, but then,
you know, after the funeral, which,

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um, by the way, the University of Oregon,
uh, paid for the entire funeral. The,

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all of the professors that
I had worked with, you know,

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in the computer science department,

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the physics department departments all
over the University of Oregon, you know,

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banded together and donated to,
um, you know, pay for the funeral.

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And so after the funeral,
I, I don't, I don't know,

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I guess I could just feel myself
fading on that couch. I, you know,

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I knew I wasn't gonna survive
if I just kept s you know,

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staying there on that couch. And
so my undergrad research advisor,

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he had sent me an email and told
me, you know, anything I needed,

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he was there and to just contact him.
And so I set up a meeting with him and,

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um, he asked me what I
needed, and I said, you know,

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that I felt like I needed to go back to
school and finish my degree in physics.

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Both my husband and son were
very proud of me for doing that,

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and I felt like I needed a
distraction. And so at first, um,

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so he, he, you know, was able to
work that out for me. Obviously,

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I had missed a lot of class,

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and so my electromagnetism
professor said that I could

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finish the class over the
summer by independent study,

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and then that allowed me so that I
didn't have to postpone graduation by

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an entire year. And so she was
incredibly supportive. And, you know,

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my undergrad research advisor realized
that everything in my life was

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completely turned upside down and
that I needed some sort of stability.

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And so he said the research group could
do that for me, and they would be solid,

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you know, and, um, that's
exactly what I needed. I,

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I really needed that distraction. Um,
I had been working on a paper and, um,

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so I went back to start
finishing this paper. Um,

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at first it was really hard, you know,
I, I honestly, I couldn't even read.

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I would stare at stare at the
paper, you know, and or my screen,

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and I couldn't even read at first.

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But just going in every
day and trying to read,

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eventually I got back into the swing
of things. And, um, that was a,

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yeah, like I said, I just needed
that. I needed that distraction. Um,

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and I was able to graduate on time.

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The next year I got my bachelor's in
physics at the University of Oregon and

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decided to apply to
graduate school. And, um,

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got accepted into, you know,
a couple different schools.

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And I chose the University of Arizona.

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I think the main reason I chose here was
because during the perspective visit,

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I noticed that the grad students were
happy and they were really supportive of

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each other, and it was a really
collaborative environment.

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And I knew I didn't want to be
in a competitive environment.

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And so I eventually chose to come
to the University of Arizona. Um,

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but actually before I even got
accepted into graduate school,

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there was this group of women in
Oregon and they said, you know,

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they had heard about my story and they
wanted to have a meeting with me to see,

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you know, if there was any way they
could help me. And so I went, you know,

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this was pretty early after the
tragedy happened. Um, so, you know,

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it was kind of a, a raw
time for me. But, you know,

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I was sitting in this house with this
group of women and they were trying to

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figure out ways they could help me. And I,

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I had told them I was applying to grad
school and all of this, and I think,

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you know, they didn't really know
what to do to help me really. Um,

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there had already been a GoFundMe
that was set up by actually a complete

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stranger who had seen my story. She
wanted to help me, um, finish my program,

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and so she set up a GoFundMe and that
was able to pay for the rest of my

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bachelor's degree. Um, but this group
of women, one of them was a filmmaker,

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and I did not know that
at the time. Um, and I,

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after I, and we have a
mutual friend and, you know,

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she would ask for updates
from my mu our mutual friend,

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and the mutual friend told her that I had
gotten into grad school and that I was

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continuing this, um,
career that I had started.

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And so she flew to Tucson one
day and with a life story rights

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agreement and asked me if I'd be willing,
uh, to make a documentary with her.

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She's an independent filmer, um, used
to work at N NBC News for, you know,

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most of her career, and Dateline and
has, you know, she's ex you know,

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very good at her job. But,
um, my question for her was,

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what was her goal for the
documentary? And she told me that,

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well,

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so over the years there's been people
who have seen what I've gone through,

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and they've messaged me and told me
that it watching me go through what I've

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been through and still,
um, you know, doing what,

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still following my dreams,
inspired them to, um,

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get through their own hard
times. And when I asked the,

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so when I asked the director
what her goals were for the film,

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she said basically the same thing.
And so I felt like it was a good fit.

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So that's what made me decide to sign,
sign that life story rights agreement.

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And, you know, this was four years ago.
She's been following me for four years,

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and the film just now got
finished very recently.

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Okay. Have, have you.

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Seen it? I have seen it,
yeah. We've had a couple of,

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we've had a couple of private
screenings, so I've seen it. Yeah.

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You happy with it?

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Yeah, I'm definitely happy with it.

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She's a very loving person and
I think she did a, a great job.

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She did it with love. And um, honestly,
I'm not the type of person that,

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um, really is comfortable in front of
a camera. And so it was scary at first,

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but um, actually Covid happened
and so that kind of delayed things.

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But during that time,

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I became really close friends with her
and also the person, the Filmographer,

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the director of photography, um, you know,

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we would go to dinner
every night after filming.

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And so I really got to
know them both very well.

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And they're both just incredibly kind,

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empathetic people and they've
honestly become my best friends.

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And so I think the reason I was
able to be so vulnerable in the film

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was because I trusted them and because
they were, you know, friends of mine,

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you know, because if I was in cry, if
I was crying in front of the cameras,

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they were crying behind
the cameras with me. They,

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so I really trusted both
of them, them to, you know,

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be vulnerable in front of them.

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Okay. And you say you wanted to
do it because she shared the same

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motivations as you for sharing your story?
Uh, it, that's what that's happened,

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has it?

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Yeah. Yeah, because like I said,

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we've had a couple of private
screenings and there's a huge shift,

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you know, because I interact with people
before the screening and then after the

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screening. And oftentimes these are
strangers to me and there's a huge shift.

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Um, people approach me afterwards and it,

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I think they feel like they know me and
that they can open up to me. And so,

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you know, I've had some of the most
genuine conversations I've ever had with,

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with people after a screening and they
open up to me about their own hard things

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that they've been through.
And they've told me,

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they have told me that it helped them,
you know, so that's been gr you know,

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great to see already that, you know,
from the few private screenings,

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people do feel like they
connect with me, so.

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Okay, that's good. And when
can the rest of us see it?

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So Sandy's applying to, um,
film festivals right now, um,

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all over the United
States. I think the world,

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she's applying to some
international ones as well.

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We did get accepted into
our first film festival,

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which is the Phoenix Film
Festival. And um, yeah,

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we'll be applying to more. So
I'm not sure, uh, you know,

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which other ones we'll get into,
but for now it's, you know,

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00:13:18,660 --> 00:13:21,800
the Phoenix Film Festival at the
end of March and beginning of April.

216
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You've mentioned that the research
group were really supportive to

217
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begin with. Is that an ongoing
thing? Do you still feel supported?

218
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:33,480
Yeah, so my undergrad
research group, um, as I said,

219
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,440
was incredibly supportive. Um,
especially my undergrad research advisor.

220
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That's another reason I want people to
watch the film is to see what he did for

221
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me. Um, he shows what
good mentorship can do.

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I had a meeting with Dr.

223
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Fisher and it must have been a
shock for him to see me like that.

224
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I said, look,

225
00:13:53,980 --> 00:13:58,200
our group can be the one
spot that didn't change,

226
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that that was the one part
of her life that, you know,

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didn't get thrown, you
know, in, into chaos. Wow.

228
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That was tough at first cuz
she was numb. It was clear.

229
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You honestly, coming to grad school,
moving away from my support group,

230
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uh, my support system in
Oregon was very scary. Um,

231
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I didn't know what the people
were gonna be like here.

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And actually during my first
year in graduate school,

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I got incredibly close with my cohort,
um, to the point where, you know,

234
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we were cooking dinner together every
night and they've been incredibly

235
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supportive as well. And you know,

236
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I couldn't have made it this far without
all of the people that have stepped in

237
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and been my community that have gotten
me through all of this. And, you know,

238
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my current,

239
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my PhD advisor has been incredibly
supportive as well cuz you know, um,

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for example, I still have hard days
on the anniversary of the tragedy,

241
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for example, or on my son's birthday. Um,

242
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I'm not able to work on those days and
I didn't know how to tell my PhD advisor

243
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,680
this. I was, you know,
very afraid to at first.

244
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And so I actually did it by email because
it's hard to tell people in person.

245
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And so I sent her an email
and told her, you know,

246
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I'm taking next week off because
of this thing that happened.

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It's the anniversary of losing my
husband and son. And she said she,

248
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she already knew about what happened
to me, um, but that she didn't,

249
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she was waiting for me to tell
her and she said, you know,

250
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:30,720
take all of the time you need.

251
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,040
And she's continued to do that for
the past five years. Every time I say,

252
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you know, today's my son's birthday,
I can't work today or, you know,

253
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she'll give me as much time as I need.

254
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,520
So she's been incredibly
supportive as well.

255
00:15:42,430 --> 00:15:47,120
I guess they treat me like a full human,
you know, which sounds obvious to do,

256
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but, um, I don't think that's, you know,

257
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incredibly common in academia honestly.

258
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And so they realize that
I have complications and I

259
00:15:56,690 --> 00:16:01,240
outside of work and they just
honor those. Um, and so I just,

260
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I know that's not been
everyone's experience, but
I would say that, you know,

261
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:08,360
they've done an incredible
job of being supportive.

262
00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:10,400
So empathy and understanding really.

263
00:16:10,670 --> 00:16:12,320
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

264
00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:14,080
And how was it making the.

265
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,600
Film? Honestly, making the documentary
was a cathartic process, I would say.

266
00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:23,800
Um, I didn't realize how hard it would
be. I think, you know, doing a PhD in,

267
00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:28,040
um, you know, making a documentary at
the same time, but I'm glad I did it.

268
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I do feel stronger doing
it, um, because like I said,

269
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it was very hard to talk about at first
and I think there's some, you know,

270
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,640
strength in being able to talk about it.

271
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,440
And so I do feel a lot stronger
after making it. And, um, I,

272
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I do feel honored when people, um,

273
00:16:46,390 --> 00:16:50,520
have these genuine conversations with me
after seeing it and open up to me about

274
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,840
their own hardships. Um, I do
feel honored that, you know,

275
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it helped them in some way.

276
00:16:57,590 --> 00:17:00,200
I don't know what I would've
done without astronomy.

277
00:17:00,590 --> 00:17:03,480
It's really what kept me
going, especially early on.

278
00:17:03,750 --> 00:17:08,360
I think that's part of resilience is
being part of something that's bigger than

279
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:09,193
you.

280
00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:15,720
You mentioned covid
affecting the, the filming.

281
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,760
Did it affect your research as well?

282
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,520
Yeah, I think it affected everybody's
research. Just, you know, it it,

283
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,960
I think it delayed things.
There were also, you know,

284
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,320
a few telescope closings for
a bit for example. So, um,

285
00:17:28,510 --> 00:17:31,160
yeah, I would say it
affected all of us for sure.

286
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:34,840
I think, uh, one telescope
sort of opened up since then.

287
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,040
Have you been able to get
involved in uh, J W S T?

288
00:17:39,310 --> 00:17:40,760
Yeah, so, um,

289
00:17:40,890 --> 00:17:45,760
my PhD advisor is Professor
Marsha Reiki and she is the

290
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,880
principal investigator for Near cam,

291
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,600
which is the primary camera on the
James Webb Space Telescope. And uh,

292
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,480
one of the perks of that is that
she got over 900 hours of J W S T

293
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,920
time. And so we have this
very large <laugh> Yeah,

294
00:18:01,170 --> 00:18:05,320
we have this very large collaboration,
um, with near spec, the, you know,

295
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,760
the instrument, the Specter graph, um,
with the European Space Agency. Uh,

296
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,960
we have a very large
collaboration and you know, we're,

297
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,960
we basically have access to humanity's
best data of the universe and it's

298
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,280
been incredible to be part of that team.
And so the last chapter of my thesis,

299
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:26,160
um, will be written using that data. Oh.

300
00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:28,720
I made, that's just awesome, right?

301
00:18:29,390 --> 00:18:30,960
Yeah, definitely <laugh>.

302
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:35,160
It's one of the other main reasons I
chose the University of Arizona for sure

303
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,600
was to work with her cuz and she's
just, you know, amazing. Yeah.

304
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,120
So, uh, did you know that that
was go, like when JW was going up,

305
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,800
did you know that that was a possibility?
So you were kind of watching that.

306
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,160
<Laugh>? Yes, for sure. Um, yeah,

307
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,840
actually a lot of the
grad schools I applied to,

308
00:18:52,190 --> 00:18:54,800
I would look and see if, uh, you know,

309
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,600
different professors had time on J W S C
already for cycle one or for, you know,

310
00:18:59,820 --> 00:19:04,710
the early time. And so that was one of
the deciding factors, uh, was, yeah,

311
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:06,870
that was certainly one of the
deciding factors for grad school.

312
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:07,550
Cause I knew I wanted,

313
00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:12,430
my dream was to work for J with JW s t
in some way and I hope to continue that

314
00:19:12,430 --> 00:19:13,310
after graduation.

315
00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:17,950
But it's really lovely to know that
even with everything that you have been

316
00:19:17,950 --> 00:19:22,750
through are going through
that astronomy research space

317
00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:25,270
and that inspiration
that's come from, you know,

318
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:29,950
science communicators before
us is giving you, you know,

319
00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:30,700
hope.

320
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:32,950
Yeah, definitely. It's been a huge part,

321
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:36,790
especially at first I really needed
it as a distraction, but it's also,

322
00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:40,790
you know, of course given
me hope and um, you know,

323
00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:44,030
part of resilience is being part
of something bigger than you.

324
00:19:44,030 --> 00:19:47,790
And with astronomy it does feel like
we're part of something that's bigger than

325
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:51,910
us. And so that's been certainly
part of my resilience as well.

326
00:19:52,430 --> 00:19:53,710
Space Hope and Charity.

327
00:19:53,860 --> 00:19:58,750
That documentary about Charity's life
is produced and directed by Sandy

328
00:19:58,750 --> 00:19:59,350
Cummings.

329
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:04,110
I've always been drawn to stories
about people who are facing

330
00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:08,990
extraordinary challenges and their
process of finding their way through them

331
00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:12,790
and how they, how they do that,

332
00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:15,030
and then how it changes their lives.

333
00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:20,630
And I heard about Charity's story
through a mutual friend who has

334
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:25,430
known her since she was in middle
school and we were just having

335
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:29,230
coffee one day and she was telling me
this story about what charity had been

336
00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:34,110
through and where she was
now. And I got goosebumps.

337
00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:38,470
I just thought that's an
incredible story and so

338
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:41,710
inspiring that it was a
story that I wanted to tell.

339
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,150
So what kind of stories
have you told before?

340
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:44,790
Well,

341
00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:49,720
my background is that I was a
producer for N B C News for most

342
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,400
of my career. Many of
those for Dateline N B C.

343
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:56,560
And it was long form stories or shows

344
00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:58,040
for the network.

345
00:20:58,380 --> 00:21:03,360
And one that I had done not too
long before I met charity was

346
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,320
about a family from eastern
Oregon who lived on a ranch and

347
00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:10,040
had five children.

348
00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:14,320
And after all five children were born,

349
00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:19,440
they learned that they
had this genetic problem

350
00:21:19,630 --> 00:21:23,080
that caused car cardiomyopathy,
which is heart failure.

351
00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:28,560
So three of their five children
needed to have heart transplants

352
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:30,440
over a period of years.

353
00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:35,040
One of them had two transplants during
the course of time that I was following

354
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:35,490
them.

355
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:40,400
So I followed that family for about six
years as three of their children went

356
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,400
through heart transplants. And um,

357
00:21:43,650 --> 00:21:47,480
it was just really an
incredible experience.

358
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,080
I got to know the family
very well and, um,

359
00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:55,960
just to see them facing that, you know,
sending their children off to surgery,

360
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,040
not knowing whether or not they would
come out and being with them during those

361
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,120
moments was just really
remarkable. You know,

362
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,800
over the course of years I
covered everything from, you know,

363
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,000
the Oklahoma City bombing here, nine 11,

364
00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:15,320
um, the terrorist attacks, just many,
many stories people about, you know,

365
00:22:15,910 --> 00:22:19,640
I did a story once about
a french horn player.

366
00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:24,480
He was a professional musician who
scored some Disney films and things

367
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,880
like that and he had a brain tumor and

368
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:34,640
I was allowed to be in the operating
room as they took this tumor out.

369
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,630
But what they did was they
put him under anesthesia,

370
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,670
opened up his skull,

371
00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:46,270
and then they woke him up during the
surgery and they actually had him

372
00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:51,150
humming tunes to make sure that they
didn't damage the part of his brain

373
00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:52,350
that processes music.

374
00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:57,710
And so to be in an operating room with
someone awake during brain surgery

375
00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:00,590
was incredible. And um,

376
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,550
so I've just been really grateful for
opportunities to meet interesting people

377
00:23:04,550 --> 00:23:06,630
and see things I wouldn't
be able to see otherwise.

378
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,070
Is it literally just a story of
people? Are you trying to convey hope?

379
00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:12,350
Are you trying, what is
it you're trying to do?

380
00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:16,190
Yes, it's the stories of people and yes,

381
00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:19,670
definitely the idea of trying
to convey hope because you know,

382
00:23:19,670 --> 00:23:23,910
we all go through really difficult
things during the course of our lives.

383
00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:27,390
And to be able to see
someone like Charity lose,

384
00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:31,710
she really lost everything
meaningful in her life.

385
00:23:31,710 --> 00:23:36,550
And to see her create a new
life for herself has just

386
00:23:36,550 --> 00:23:38,030
been fantastic.

387
00:23:38,130 --> 00:23:42,870
And so my hope is that other
people watching the film will come

388
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:47,760
away feeling like they
too can find hope in the

389
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,240
end and find new purpose,

390
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:51,920
even though they've been through
some really difficult things.

391
00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:56,800
The other part of Charity's story
that really resonated with me

392
00:23:57,060 --> 00:24:00,400
was the power of human connection.

393
00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:04,560
Because to see old friends,

394
00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:09,200
I mean people she hadn't seen in years
who she knew when she was a kid circle

395
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,033
around her,

396
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:15,160
and then also perfect strangers
reaching out to her and helping her get

397
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,640
her life back on track
after this awful tragedy.

398
00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:23,200
Just that human connection
to me was really important.

399
00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:28,280
And also just the idea that it
really takes very little to have

400
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,480
a huge impact on someone else's life.

401
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:35,960
And so my hope is that the film
also inspires people just to

402
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,520
be kind to each other and to
reach out to people who might need

403
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:44,960
a little hand now and then, so that was
the other part of it that was really,

404
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,000
that I really hope people take away.

405
00:24:47,070 --> 00:24:49,400
This isn't presumably a new world to you,

406
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,320
sort of physics and <laugh> the academic.

407
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,880
World, <laugh>. Absolutely.

408
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:56,320
Was there anything that sort of surprised
you about the community when you've

409
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,440
been researching and making the.

410
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,280
Film? Well, what was
really interesting to me,

411
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,800
our very first screening was for
the American Astronomical Society,

412
00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:07,280
uh, during their meeting
in Seattle. And honestly,

413
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,320
I didn't know what to expect because of
course I think of people in that world

414
00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:15,400
as being sort of not terribly emotive.

415
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,120
And I was wondering how are
they going to react to this?

416
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,720
Are they going to think
I want more science?

417
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,120
I don't wanna hear the personal story.
And so it was really interesting doing,

418
00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:30,160
um, the screening with them
and to see these, you know,

419
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:34,080
old white-haired guys
with their PhDs in tears.

420
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:38,560
And it just, you know, to
me it just opened up this,

421
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:43,320
it just made them seem more human <laugh>,

422
00:25:43,790 --> 00:25:46,360
I guess that's, of course they're human,

423
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:51,360
but it just made them seem like
they connected to the human story

424
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:55,160
in a way that I wasn't sure
that they would. Um, you know,

425
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,760
what I have loved about meeting the people
in the physics world is their passion

426
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:00,880
for what they're doing,

427
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,800
how excited they get about these things
that make absolutely no sense to me.

428
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:07,880
And fortunately,

429
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,240
charity dumbs everything down when she
tries to explain to me what she's doing

430
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,640
with her research. And, um,

431
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:19,160
I think she probably is speaking
to me as though I'm in sixth grade

432
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:23,320
and I think that's a good thing because
then I understand what she's saying.

433
00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:28,320
But it's been, you know, some of the
people I've met through her are just,

434
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,000
they're phenomenal and
brilliant and it's been fun to

435
00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:38,440
be around some of her friends from
the University of Arizona and her old

436
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,280
mentor, um, Dr.

437
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,960
Scott Fisher is just so
passionate about his work and

438
00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:50,200
has been such a huge supporter
for her that it's been great.

439
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,360
It's been really fun.

440
00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:56,080
Is that something that you knew you
were going to encounter when you were

441
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:57,600
making the film That,

442
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,120
that the academic team around
charity were that supportive?

443
00:27:01,270 --> 00:27:04,960
I knew that Dr. Fisher
had been supportive,

444
00:27:05,060 --> 00:27:10,040
but I didn't realize to what
degree and when I interviewed

445
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:10,873
him,

446
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:16,040
it was just really interesting when he
talked about seeing her for the first

447
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,800
time after the tragedy. I mean, he,

448
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,150
he was in tears talking
about it. I mean he just,

449
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,230
it was like he was right back in that
moment of seeing her and the shock and

450
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:29,670
trauma that she had been through.

451
00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:34,950
And I would not have expected
everything that they did. I mean,

452
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:39,710
the university held a memorial
service for charity's husband and son,

453
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:40,750
um, Dr.

454
00:27:40,750 --> 00:27:45,350
Fisher as an undergrad gave
charity an office to work from

455
00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:47,230
and just really,

456
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:51,710
they just circled around her in a way
that was just beautiful and supportive.

457
00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:54,030
Well, I haven't managed
to see the film yet.

458
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:55,590
I can help you with that. <laugh>.

459
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:58,430
Well, thank you. I, I'll take you
off on that if that's all right.

460
00:27:58,430 --> 00:28:02,270
But I know that your goal is
really to tell charity story,

461
00:28:02,270 --> 00:28:06,190
but I wonder whether people when they
watch the film might be drawn towards the

462
00:28:06,190 --> 00:28:06,710
physics as.

463
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:11,230
Well. It introduces people
to the physics a little bit.

464
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,270
We do talk a bit about the James Webspace
telescope and the significance of

465
00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:18,550
that. And a lot of it,

466
00:28:18,550 --> 00:28:22,710
of course is in relation to charity's
life and the work that she's doing now

467
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,990
because she's analyzing data
that's being sent back and um,

468
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:33,110
so it really is in that
context more than anything. Um,

469
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,830
so no, we don't really
get into the physics.

470
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:41,870
She talks just a little bit about
the significance of the telescope

471
00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:45,070
and how that will change,

472
00:28:45,490 --> 00:28:50,470
how we see everything that it really
is revolutionary and about the

473
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:55,030
work that she's doing and connecting
the dots between, you know,

474
00:28:55,030 --> 00:28:59,990
the earliest galaxies and where we are now

475
00:29:00,020 --> 00:29:02,710
with some of the data and
that that's what she's doing.

476
00:29:02,970 --> 00:29:06,230
And how about you? Has this
made you more interested in.

477
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:10,790
Physics? I'm definitely reading a lot
about the James web TA space telescope

478
00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:16,150
and am definitely more interested
than I was before meeting

479
00:29:16,150 --> 00:29:18,590
charity. And she'll send me things,

480
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:22,350
she'll get so excited about some new
piece of research and she'll send me a

481
00:29:22,350 --> 00:29:26,470
picture of a graph or of something that
she's all excited about and then I have

482
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:28,350
to say to her, okay, what
does that mean <laugh>?

483
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,790
So I'm definitely learning from her.

484
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,990
Oh, that's great, isn't it? I mean,
people will take hope from your film,

485
00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:36,430
from charity story,

486
00:29:36,430 --> 00:29:40,950
and I'm sure people will be drawn
towards the science the way that,

487
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,000
that you have as well and that deep
connection, I think the word is awe,

488
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,640
isn't it? It's awesome
that deep understanding,

489
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,560
or even if it's just not
even a deep understanding,

490
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,000
but just an understanding
of just how immense it is.

491
00:29:55,130 --> 00:29:57,560
It can be quite a soulful experience,

492
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,280
can't it just a grasp it a.

493
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,200
Little bit? Yes, yes, absolutely.

494
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:06,840
And in the film she talks about
how from the time she was a small

495
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,880
child when things were chaotic at home,

496
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,360
she would go out and look up at the
night sky and how that was always

497
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,600
calming to her. And, um, and you know,

498
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,760
and she talked about how it also,

499
00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:25,840
the work that she's doing gives you
perspective about how vast the universe

500
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,760
is and how we're living on this little
rock in the middle of nowhere and you

501
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,160
realize really how small we are.

502
00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:36,960
And so she does talk about
some of those big picture

503
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,240
ideas and um,

504
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,040
of course the imagery from
the James Webspace telescope

505
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,960
is stunning. And so we were able to
get some of that in there as well,

506
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,960
which is, which is just beautiful.

507
00:30:51,190 --> 00:30:53,320
Yeah, no, it's amazing stuff, isn't it.

508
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,560
I'm glad that that's
made it into the film.

509
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,000
I can't wait to to see that
and how you've used it.

510
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,760
But when you are making a
film about this topic or,

511
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,600
and the other topics that you've made,

512
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,080
which are very emotional and emotive and
you are speaking to people who've been

513
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,640
through or going through
very difficult times,

514
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,560
how do you approach
that as an interviewer.

515
00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:15,840
With charity?

516
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,920
Because of the trauma
and the P T S D that she

517
00:31:20,020 --> 00:31:24,520
experienced, I've wanted
to step very lightly.

518
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,520
I did not want to push her at all.

519
00:31:27,410 --> 00:31:30,360
So as we were getting
ready for the interview,

520
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,080
I let her know that we could stop at
any time. We could take breaks. Um,

521
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,800
and I really let her guide the
interview. I would, you know,

522
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,320
sort of introduce something and then
let her say as much as she wanted to,

523
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:49,400
but I never pushed her for details that
she might not be comfortable talking

524
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,233
about.

525
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:54,680
So I really kind of
gave her that power over

526
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:57,640
how much and what she wanted to share.

527
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:01,600
And during the interview
we did stop and, you know,

528
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,440
take a water break and, uh, give her
a chance to recover before going on.

529
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:11,930
And, um, she did just a
tremendous job. I don't know that,

530
00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:15,930
um, I would've done as well as
she did under the circumstances,

531
00:32:16,030 --> 00:32:19,930
but it's emotional for everybody. I mean,
the cameraman was in tears and he's,

532
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:24,210
you know, an older guy
who's seen a lot and, um,

533
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:25,810
it was emotional for all of.

534
00:32:25,810 --> 00:32:26,190
Us.

535
00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:29,730
I'd like to thank Sandy and Charity for
talking to me for this episode of the

536
00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:30,810
Physics World Stories Podcast.

537
00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:36,250
You can find out more about the
film at space hope charity film.com.

538
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,720
I have now been fortunate
enough to see the film,

539
00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:44,920
and all I can say is I hope that
you will all get the chance to

540
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,760
see it soon,

541
00:32:45,770 --> 00:32:50,360
whether that's on a streaming
platform or at a film

542
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,680
festival or however it is that you manage
to see it. I hope that you will soon,

543
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,360
we'll be back next month when
we'll be looking at quantum music.

544
00:33:00,050 --> 00:33:02,160
No, I'm not quite sure
what that is yet either.

545
00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:06,280
I guess we'll all find out in next month's
episode of the Physics World Stories

546
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,840
Podcast. And thank you
very much for listening.

547
00:33:13,330 --> 00:33:14,640
Physics World.