RECAP: Game 4 NLDS – Phillies season “feels like a failure”

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi, this is Chase Utley and this is the Phillies Show. Hi, everybody, Welcome to the Philly Show with Ruben Tomorrow, Junior, Jim Salisbury, Todd Z a lucky part of the Foul Territory Network. Morning after Game four of the twenty four NLDS Phillies lose to the Mets, their season is over. In the clubhouse last night, guys, I couldn't help but think about how last season ended, and then this spring and Clearwater, when you know the front office had decided to you know, quote unquote run it back, and how all excited all these players were about that opportunity because they felt they had enough talent in the clubhouse to kind of finish the job. They looked at those last five games of the NLCS last year as kind of just like five bad days, but not who they were or who.

00:01:06
Speaker 2: They are, and man, it looked like a stroke of genius.

00:01:10
Speaker 1: For like two plus months, I was thinking about that Saturday in London, Bryce Harper Holmers, he does that soccer slide, remember it?

00:01:18
Speaker 2: Front of the dugout. They were forty five in nineteen.

00:01:22
Speaker 1: On June eighth, they were on pace to win one hundred and fourteen games after that win in New York in London, and then after that, including this NLDS, they finished fifty one and fifty one.

00:01:37
Speaker 2: Just a really.

00:01:39
Speaker 1: Dramatic turnaround from talking about catching the Seattle Mariners all most wins or best season ever to fading out so hard and so fast in the NLDS. What struck you, guys is you watched that game last night and saw this season and well short of a World series glad?

00:02:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, just uh.

00:02:05
Speaker 3: Demoralizing. What's a lot of things struck me? Another year off, the uh off, the kind of the winning curve or the window or whatever you want to call it. I know some players will dispute that, but they're all going to be a year older next year and it becomes a little bit harder. But you know what struck me is a million things that you know they you mentioned since London. I mean, I hear this stuff that the Mets that they're a better team than the Mets. No, they're not the Mets. And in a big chunk of timing since the All Star break, the Mets are forty five and twenty nine including this series, and the Phillies are thirty four and thirty six. It's the All Star Break mediocre team. The Mets are a better team. Phillies got beat by a better team, a team that performed two of the Phillies. You know, they have an explosive offense and inconsistent offense, but it can be explosive and it consistency, which we feared. We talked about all the time. It reared its head. It hit like one eight six in this series. Bullpen had an eleven era. They got some good starts. You know, Ranger last night had a big responsibility, and we always talk about a good hitter versus dangerous hitter. He was he was like a dangerous pitcher last night. I don't think he was a good pitcher. He put a lot of men on base and he got some big outs with that curve ball. But if he keeps his pitch count more in line, maybe he gets through that fifth. And the Hoffman thing is Hoffman's going out for the sixth and he's not, you know, having a sit and then go back out there and allow a couple of base runners and then boom season over.

00:03:42
Speaker 4: So all in all, I think it's a team that.

00:03:47
Speaker 3: Was a very good team early, but it may have just been a hot team early. May have just been a hot team early. Definitely lost some of their edge as the season went on. And if you listen to J T Real Mudo Hawk that he thinks that they they could have turned the switch. The belief in that clubhouse was we can turn the switch in October. But you just don't do that. You have to be consistent all year and they're big guns for the most part, did not play well in this postseason. Castianos had a pretty good run, Harper had that big game, but you know, all in all, too much inconsistency, and the Mets were the better team. The Mets are the better team. The Mets move on and the Phillies go home with disappointment. They, like you mentioned, they ran a lot back going into this season. That tack cannot be taken this winter. They need to make changes, but I don't know where they're gonna make them. It's a very inflexible roster. You know, the Hall of Fame GM is gonna have to be very, very creative and give this team a better chance I think than you know. Some of his results at the trade deadline the last two years haven't really paid a divid.

00:05:01
Speaker 5: Yeah, really disappointing season. There's no question about it. At the end, I mean, I think they did some great things because they you know, they got out of the shoot early. They say that you can you can't necessarily win a division in the first couple of months, but you can certainly lose it. They didn't lose it. They came out of the gates. That was something that was really important to them. They came out and He's really strong and really at the the reason why they were so strong, I think is that their starting pitching was just insane. And you know, if you really go back, go back and look at the schedule, it really wasn't that tough for them. They had a really tough schedule and then teams that they were playing at the time were just not very good teams. On top of that, that said, you still have to win the games. But their pitching was extraordinary. I mean, you start thinking about the guys that were that were pitching really really well. I mean, you had Wheeler, obviously, you had Ranger was insane. He was a cy young candidate out of the shoot right first couple of months of this season. Noel's pitching pretty well, and uh, you know, Sanchez was dowing throwing the ball pretty pretty well as well. So I mean they even had who's a fifth the fifth starter was was outstanding, not turn Turnbull. Timberow was you know, insane. I mean in the first you know, you know, few starts before he went down. As far as the offense is concerned, I mean, it is clear to me now that this is a as we talked about, a very dangerous team. It's not a winning lineup because it doesn't make enough consistent contact, doesn't make quality outs. When a guy like Alec Bohm, who's supposed to be one of your better hitters, really basically went off the face of the earth or about I think it started happening actually right after the All Star break. I think he sort of went south. I know that people talk about the hand, but he was sort of going south right after the All Star break. The second half of the season was not very good. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but they're not. It wasn't very strong. He had a very very good first half obviously to make to make the playoffs, and I was thinking that he was really good at you know, catapult forward, but he didn't. Guys like Scott and marsh really didn't do very much. They were not productive players. I was very very disappointed in that. I thought, you know, the center field, I thought Rojas did okay. I mean, it was some improvement in his stuff, but you know, he's still very exploitable. He's not a great offensive player. He may never be. I think that there's a lot of changes that have to be made in an outfield. That center field left field situation is scary. Uh, there's not much there production wise. I don't know what David and Browse is going to do about that, but they're going to have to fill it with people who I believe are going to have to make better contact and have better grinding type of bats and less streaky players. Because you have a streaky player in Schworeber Turner, Harper's little less streak. He's a little streaky as well, but less streaky now that he's a little older. You have Castianos who's actually pretty consistent. But then beyond that, I mean and JT. Realmuto, who's you know, off the face of the earth. At the end, there super streaky players tied up in a ton of money and they got to fill in certain guys in that lineup, they're gonna have to, you know, make better contact. The other issue is that bullpen. I like some of the guys in the bullpen. I think Strom's gonna be fine, Hawkins gonna be a free agent, He's gonna be gone. I don't think they'll do resign him because he's gonna want a ton of money, especially after what we saw here at the end. I just feel like these guys they have a lot of things to unpack here because it's not a winning roster right now, and we will be right back deal.

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00:10:01
Speaker 2: And we are yeah.

00:10:03
Speaker 3: And one of the things before we really galls me about this series is Game one. You know, games ones are so important. You get a great start from Wheeler, you have a lead off home run from shorebur and you just don't build on it. And you're in your home ballpark and you just don't build on it. There was such a such an opportunity there, and this team just fumbled it away.

00:10:29
Speaker 1: And Matt Strom last night said, man, it was right there in front of us, if we could have just gotten back to Philly for Game five with Wheeler on the mound. And I understand what he's saying, but I also agree with what you're saying they had that, they had that moment, They had that moment, they had the moment at home with Zach Wheeler, and they blew it.

00:10:51
Speaker 5: You know, they did see But the one thing that struck me, the one thing that struck me really was that I think the Mets wanted it more. They were looser, they were more relaxed, they were playing with some more passion. I shouldn't say they wanted it more, because I know I'm sure that they I'm sure that the Phillies wanted it, but they played with a passion that was different than the than the Phillies did. The Phillies did not do everything they possibly could to win the game. They did not bear down and swing at strikes. They did not foul pitches off when they needed to. They did not move runners when they had to. They did not do the things that you have to do to be a winning team. And that's what you know. If I was sitting up there, and in a lot of ways, I was sitting up thinking as a GM or thinking as a you know, a coach or something like that, I'm thinking they're not doing the things that need to be done to win this pricking series. And the Mets did, and so in some ways they lost the series. In other ways, the Mets wanted the Phillies were.

00:11:48
Speaker 3: They had enormous expectations, and they played tight and what you're basically articulating, and some Mets played free and easy with house money and they were relaxed. And when you when you are you know, I mean, you want to play with intensity and focus. But there has to be a looseness and the Mets had it because I don't think you know, they came into the season not expecting to be there. They're pulling off all these late wins. They have a great second half, they're kind of getting some momentum, and they feel good about themselves. And the Phillies are spinning their wheels for two three months, and you know, in the back of their mind they're worried about this series. Real Mudo even admitted it, come after Game two. Tight team, loose team. It's hard to be yourself when you're tight and you have a lot of and you're smothered by the weight of expectations. And we've seen it two octobers in a row. Now, we saw it in the second half of that Arizona series last year. The smothering expectations led to poor at bats. I mean there was you know, Kimberl didn't pitch well. You can argue whether he should have even been in the games, but there was a tightness to this team that did not lend itself to win. It to playing winning baseball. The last two octobers, they haven't dealt well with these enormous expectations that just continue to grow. It's a tough town to play in. It's a tough town to play in.

00:13:07
Speaker 5: Man, I have just a quick, quick question, I have a quick comment. I would say this, and I'm guilty of this as well. Like I'm not a fan of a player like you know, Jazz Chisholm, for example, but he plays with some swagger, he plays with some juice, and he plays Maybe this team needs a little bit of that because they've got a lot of professional guys just gonna go about their business or whatever. Maybe you have to have a guy that has a little bit of, you know, swagger. And I don't like Jesse Winker. I'm not a fan of his, but I think a lot of people I think he pisses a lot of people off. But I mean, maybe you have to have one of those kind of like quote unquote assholes who's who goes and and you know, plays and has fun and you know, I don't know, maybe maybe you have to have somebody with a little bit of looseness, maybe not that exact player, but somebody who's got some looseness and some swagger. Because we didn't see it. They were stated not play a nice, flowing, happy, joyous brand of baseball.

00:14:07
Speaker 4: Don't they have one of those guys in Bryce Harper, That's what he came to town as.

00:14:11
Speaker 1: And you know, I just kind of feel like they were just so tight offensively and just almost like they felt they thought what we all thought, which is they're not they can't get these at bats going there, they can't put good at bats together, and it just made them.

00:14:28
Speaker 2: So tight because we've seen it. I mean, remember last last year.

00:14:33
Speaker 1: They when they're getting on base and they're hitting doubles and and they're doing all these gestures, they're gyrating and stuff like that. So when they're hitting, they're doing good, like you know, they're having a lot of fun out there. I just feel like they just got totally like suffocated by by expectations. And I remember something that Nick Castiano said last night. He said, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. And we started fantastic. Everybody in baseball and all the fans are saying, this is our year, this is our year. I don't know if expectations put on the pressure, I can speculate, but one thing I know is that we didn't cross the finish line. So that sounds like somebody who was the last couple months of the season kept hearing about expectations and kept hearing about are you guys gonna mess up the bed in the postseason like he did last year in the last five games of the NLCS, right, And that's.

00:15:23
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, listen, and it's what's funny is he's sort of semi calling out his teammates because they did they craped the bed. I mean, everybody else did. He didn't. Yeah, he played, no, he played with swagger. You know, you can say what you want about the guy. The guy played. He produced, he had good at bats, he did things that you're supposed to do as a you know, as a talent, and nobody else did not. One guy Parpara had the one good game.

00:15:51
Speaker 4: They had four, They had four good innings.

00:15:54
Speaker 5: It's a little to me, it's a little embarrassing. And I don't know what they're gonna do as far as like what changes they may make on personnel or something has to change because this is not getting it done. And I do believe that Dave Nembowski will realize that. I do believe that Middleton will realize that. And I do think that you're gonna have some pretty significant changes on this team because they need a different makeup and they need a different set of players to get them to where they need to be.

00:16:26
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you, guys, how do you fix this? How do you fix this?

00:16:30
Speaker 3: I mean, because Okay, you know your catcher's back, he's not going anywhere. Your first basement's got seven more years, your your shortstop's got nine more years. You got a couple of young players in your lineup, but their value is got has probably gone down a little bit, and you've got a humongous payroll already. I don't know how many more big tickets you can take on. What's the I know it's early and something will evolve here, and but what is the fix?

00:17:05
Speaker 1: Well, this is where everybody's gonna start saying you gotta get Juan Soto.

00:17:09
Speaker 2: You've got to get Juan Soto.

00:17:10
Speaker 1: And and I do want I don't think they're going to get him, but I do think that John Milton's.

00:17:17
Speaker 2: Gonna be maybe more involved, or maybe a.

00:17:20
Speaker 1: Third chance was five percent, maybe it goes up to seven percent, you know, because I feel like they got to go out and find a sure fire hitter that you can plug in there. And if it's not Juan Soto, Alex Bregman, I guess is out there right.

00:17:33
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I'm sure there's some other guys.

00:17:35
Speaker 1: You know, nothing's coming off the top of my head, to be honest with you, but uh, there's there are some hit I feel like they got to go out and get like somebody for sure you can plug in there and feel really good about, like we know what we're gonna get.

00:17:46
Speaker 2: From this guy.

00:17:47
Speaker 1: But they also felt like they knew what they were gonna get every day from Trey Turner when they signed him. And he's been so hot and cold as well. And he didn't really hear about the streakiness of Nick cassidy House when they got him, but he's been he's been very streaky that you know.

00:18:00
Speaker 2: The last few years.

00:18:02
Speaker 5: So a Surebert. So I'm a sure Bert as well. He's been super streaky too, you know, with the strikeout streaks. So I mean to me, you got to get bona fide guys who makes consistent contact, A three hundred hitter with three seventy on base percentage, that's what you need. And you need one or two of those guys. You need at least one of them, because you need somebody to solidify the lineup that you know can make a quality out. Yeah, and one or two of those guys, and Somebody's gonna have to step forward, like Stot's gonna have to change his whole. Stott could not get to a ninety two mile an hour fastball at the end of the season. He was either super tired or he forgot about using his top hand bone could not get to a fastball on the inside part of the plate. Something's gonna have to happen. I don't know whether these guys are gonna get moved. I don't like Turner shortstop. I don't I think he is uh, he can be a detriment to shortstop. I think he's a guy that they have to at least con that are moving off short For me, I think he is a great athlete, supreme athlete. But I think it also would give him a lot less things to think about. If you just put him in the outfield further away from the baseball, put him in left field, that solves one of your outfield issues. Slide stop, maybe the short stop. You don't have to worry about Stott having as much offense and let them worry about defense. Look for a second baseman like Bregman or third basement. He can play anywhere in the infield. He could probably second, second, or third. There's a whole bunch of things that can happen. Aiden Miller may have to step forward to be the guy and you know, stick him in there somewhere second base or something, or give Crawford an opportunity to battle in center field with I mean, maybe you just have to push some of these young guys and give them opportunities. Other teams have done it. I'm not big on that, but hey, I think you've got to shake some things up and put some heat on some people.

00:19:53
Speaker 1: Well, we know Dave Demrowski's not afraid to promote young players. He said it many many times since he's been here. Now this is the next is going to be the opportunity.

00:20:01
Speaker 2: To really prove it.

00:20:02
Speaker 1: With Miller and Crawford both finishing and reading both having great seasons, the Phillies are super high on both of those guys. Andrew Paynter not that starting pitching is an issue, but they expect him to compete and pitch for this in the rotation at some point next season. So yeah, maybe maybe you try to add a big bat and hope that Crawford and can push somebody in center field, and maybe Aiden Miller can push both Boem.

00:20:26
Speaker 2: And Bryce and Stott. I mean, well he can push both, right.

00:20:31
Speaker 3: Aden Miller was in high school, you know. Yeah, we've seen seventeen months ago.

00:20:36
Speaker 5: That's a lot. I mean that's a lot. I know, I mean that's a lot.

00:20:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot. And I also do think they have starting pitching issues. If I watched this team all year, there was a big drop off in four and five. They didn't have pitching depth after Ranger and the fifth starter had a lot of trouble. So I think they could use more starting pitching and they know it. They pursued Garrett Crochet at the break. What does that tell you they think they need it. So I don't know what's going to happen, but uh, it's it's going.

00:21:07
Speaker 4: To be a challenge. I expect them. You know, you have too much invested.

00:21:12
Speaker 3: You have there is too much tread left on the tire of this nuclear So time is ticking, there is some tread left on it.

00:21:19
Speaker 4: You got to do something to rescue it.

00:21:22
Speaker 1: Let's get into Them's Fighting words. Them's Fighting Words is presented by Shy but Vintage Sports. Get unique throwback Phillies, teas, hats and sweatshirts from local artists at their shops in Center City, Wayne and Chess. Of course, you can get Philly's gear. You can get Fixers gear, Eagles gear, Flyers gear, you can get it all at ship Sports. So here's a quote from last night, kind of touching on what we're talking about. This is from Bryce Harper. I asked him about the window for this for this team. He said, I'll be it's getting shorter, right. I think Schwarbs has one more year. I think JT has one more. But I think at the same time, you don't pay Wheels and Knowles if you don't think you're gonna be competitive for the next five years.

00:22:13
Speaker 2: I mean he's not wrong, of course, Uh.

00:22:15
Speaker 1: They're gonna be They're gonna try to extend this as long as they possibly can. But he also sees the reality of this current group. It is getting really short. Schwarber. Uh, you know, JT, like you said, Jeff Hoffman is a free agent free agent after the season, so they you know, they they're gonna have to uh retool and add and try to extend this as long as possible.

00:22:44
Speaker 2: What do you think about what Harper said, Rubin.

00:22:48
Speaker 5: Well, I think I don't think there's any question about retooling. I've had to do it through this. I mean, they didn't have any major injuries that we had to deal with, but the you know, for us, it was the big piece who went down and hoping that he would bounce back. We lost you know, Holliday as well, which we didn't know he was basically broken. After the twenty eleven season, we ran it back with another closer and papal Bond, thinking that, you know, we just needed somebody to lock it down at the end of the game, but all the rest of the guys just got old and broken. So and we went south and obviously couldn't couldn't work through it. You know, it's a difficult decision and it's tough, tough stuff that dem Browse's gonna deal with it. There. They are going to continue to go for it, There's no question about it. They're not going to start rebuilding, but they're definitely going to have to retool with a different set of pieces because these pieces aren't working. To be like the definition of insanity, you know, keep trying the same thing and hoping them for a different result, it's not going to happen. So the bullpen a different alineation as far as like their offense, how are going to attack? You know, who knows what's what's what's in line? I think I do believe in my heart of hearts that Rob Thompson is uh or letting him go, And you know people are talking about that. I'm sure is not the answer because he is outstanding, and I believe in the guy that said you you may see some personnel changes. You may see some things happen because you didn't see them making the adjustments that were necessary, especially on the offensive side. Who knows, I mean, Dobrowski will make moves. He's not afraid. I mean, I've been fired by him, and then they went on and win they went they went on to win the World Series, and I thought we had a really great staff, but you know what, they brought in Alex Score and they changed some things around and they ended up winning it. So you know, he's gonna he's gonna make some changes, There's no question about it. And uh, Middleton's going to demand some changes and some actions. So so we'll see what happens.

00:24:56
Speaker 3: I knowing Middleton and observe him for many years, He's going to ask some really tough questions of his leadership, of his GM and his manager.

00:25:12
Speaker 4: There's gonna be an accounting somewhere for this. I don't know where it is.

00:25:19
Speaker 3: I would agree with you on on on Rob Thompson. I think he's done an excellent.

00:25:25
Speaker 4: Job with this team.

00:25:27
Speaker 3: Uh, and and he's to me, he's not the fall guy here. But I think there is going to be an accounting somewhere. I don't know where, but that's definitely something to keep your eye on.

00:25:40
Speaker 5: Todd, you gotta hit Todd. You got to hit a train here, pretty soon, don't you. Yeah.

00:25:44
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still in Queen's Yeah, So we will, we'll be back throughout the off season. We're gonna be We're gonna continue doing shows at least twice a week. There's can be plenty of stuff to talk about. So thank you to all the listeners. Since we started this on Opening Day, thanks to all the viewers on YouTube. We literally threw this thing together at the last minute, like the day before Opening day, guys, as I recall, yes, right, maybe maybe two days before, like let's let's get together through a podcast. And the response has been tremendous. I hear from people at the ballpark and just in general about this podcast more than anything, and I know you guys do too. People really seem to enjoy it. And we're super appreciative of everybody that is following along with us. So hang with us this off season. We're gonna be back next week, do a couple episodes. Like I said, maybe twice a week, maybe more, maybe if won Soto sweepstakes, will be.

00:26:49
Speaker 4: Break it down.

00:26:50
Speaker 5: We're gonna have some guests too, and some some people to talk to and people to talk you know, the offseason, and talk about what's going on in the rest of the world baseball world as well.

00:26:59
Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is gonna be plenty to talk about on The Phillies Show. Because the Phillies are going, they need to have a busy winter. This team needs a lot of tweaking. They need some changes because they need to support that aging core, high priced aging core that still has tread on its tire.

00:27:22
Speaker 4: Harper Turner. Turner needs to be better.

00:27:25
Speaker 3: We know that, but Wheelers here, Nola's here, Castiano's real Mudo. They need to fill in around the edges to support this team and make it better because they're still.

00:27:35
Speaker 4: Gonna have a nucleus.

00:27:36
Speaker 3: It's still gonna have a high payroll, They're still gonna have high expectations, and that's the way it's going to be around here for a while. So they need to figure out a way to make this team a winner that it can have a consistent six months. You know, they don't have to be red hot every year out of the gate. They need to just be consistent for six months and give themselves a much better chance than they gave themselves this October. And the glaring thing they need to address is the offense. They're loaded with free swingers. They need to figure out a way to get some guys who can barrel up some balls have some good at bats while you wait for that explosive core to have one of their hot streaks. So a lot on Dave Dombrowski's played. He's a very accomplished general manager, and I'm sure he's already thinking about it. And I'm sure John Middleton he's not going.

00:28:20
Speaker 4: To lose his will to win. He's not going to lose his thirst. He's not going to lose his thirst. It's going to be an interesting winter.

00:28:27
Speaker 5: Their tows not in the water, their whole bodies in the water, right exactly.

00:28:31
Speaker 2: They're all in.

00:28:32
Speaker 5: They're all in.

00:28:33
Speaker 4: It's a good point.

00:28:34
Speaker 3: Like you know, the Mets have a huge payroll, huge bigger than the Phillies, but they kind of actually had this mindset of toe.

00:28:40
Speaker 4: In the water this year.

00:28:42
Speaker 3: They had more of a toe in the water mentality coming in even though I had a big payroll.

00:28:46
Speaker 4: And then all of a.

00:28:46
Speaker 3: Sudden they catch fire and they're all in. So yeah, expectations really, I think just war on this team. Maybe it'll be good to report to clear water with some lower expectations and see what happens.

00:29:00
Speaker 2: No doubt, guys. Well, I was gonna say it was fun, but it's kind of.

00:29:04
Speaker 5: Well, the season was fun. This season was a blast. I really enjoyed being with you guys, and we're gonna be doing plenty more. But really absolutely with you guys.

00:29:13
Speaker 2: Absolutely, man, it's awesome. Guys.

00:29:15
Speaker 4: Well, the end, the end smelled, so I'll smell you guys later.

00:29:19
Speaker 5: Spell youtu Jim.

00:29:26
Speaker 2: This is the Philly Show.

00:29:27
Speaker 9: If you haven't already, please subscribe to The Philly Show wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch us on our YouTube channel. If you like what we do, give us a review, tell a friend. Catch Ruben, Jim and Me on Phillies Nation TV, presented by vally Forge Tourism. New episodes air an hour before every Saturday Phillies game on NBC Sports Philadelphia. Replays air throughout the week and on Phillies Nation dot com. Get more of Reuben's analysis during before and after Phillies games on NBC Sports Philadelphia, on the Sports Radio ninety four WYT Morning Show, and MLB Network. Read Jim at the Allcity Network at all pH l y dot com. Find more of me at MLB dot com, the philliesb Newsletter, and occasionally on MLB Network