A Brief History of Dentistry and Oral Health, Part 1

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy P. Wilson. Oh, Tracy, I sure have been in a dentist chair a lot lately. I don't mind it. I'll talk about this behind in our behind the scenes. I used to be terrified of the dentist. Now I'm totally good with it. I'll talk about my rehabilitation in this way. Um but uh, and I'm fine. I've just had a lot of various things happening and getting some stuff caught up, and I'm also doing some orthodontia stuff, so when one thing goes wrong that I have to go to both all worked out. So during one of my visits, when I often sit and just kind of ruminate, I found myself wondering if m He's the second would submit to modern dental care if he suddenly had access to it like everyone else. I have, you know, heard and read about how he had some serious tooth problems in his life. And then that got me thinking about, like, yeah, but what did ancient Egyptians know about dentistry? Because I knew they were not like void of it um and it just made me want to look it up, which is how a lot of our show start. And then I did look it up when I got home, and before you know it, I was so deep in a dentistry rabbit it wasn't even funny. So we're doing a two parter on dentistry and oral health this week. Here's the thing, even with two parts, this isn't comprehensive, not even close. Because talking about a lot of stuff, uh and and world history and how different places have covered it, it does, as often is the case with our shows, it starts to skew, particularly in the more modern eras to more western world dentistry, because that's what we have most research in a language that we can read available to us in. But if you are a dentist, I hopefully did not leave out your favorite part or some development related to your specialty. But please know that this was taking all of human histories relationship with their teeth, trying to find a balance of what's relatable information versus getting too deep in the weeds with medical specificity. So that's a little level set. Also, just as a heads up in case you are one of those people who squeamish about dental things. This is not an especially graphic discussion of dental stuff. We do talk a little bit about teeth in their wear and some things that might be painful. Uh, there is a little bit in today's episode about pulling that might make you squirm a little bit. It made me squirm a little bit, but I also had visuals to go with it. But overall I would classify this as a pretty tame episode because I do get a little squirmy talking about dental stuff. So all of that out of the way. The history of dentistry, like most things that have been around for centuries or even thousands of years, we don't have a clear sense of when somebody first tried to treat oral health issues with anything that might be considered a precursor to dentistry. We know from people's remains that early humans seem not to have had a lot of cavities, relatively speaking, but they did have a lot of other dental issues, a lot of them being caused by intense where on the teeth from grinding down foods. I think that has come up on unearthed before, like the shift in toothware as people got better at cooking things. Uh. Prehistoric evidence suggests that it really wasn't uncommon for a person to grind their teeth all the way down to the pulp, which would have been incredibly painful. Gum disease was also fairly common, and dental remain have taught us a lot about social stratification of even very early societies. From the beginning, higher status or class usually meant better oral health, primarily because you would have had access to better quality food, like what Tracy just referenced, things like cooking and figuring out how to prepare food. The people at the top of the social strata, we're getting those benefits first, so they were not wearing their teeth down as quickly. But we still, though only have pretty rough guesses that with the very earliest dental care and procedures were like Presumably, though natural remedies like numbing salves derived from flora might have been used for toothaches or gum aches, a disease tooth might have been knocked out in ways that probably would have been fairly brutal and likely deeply uncomfortable for the patient, but better than having a disease tooth in your head. We do know that as early as five thousand BC there were efforts to treat toothaches among the Babylonians. There's a pretty significant gap in understanding about what was causing toothaches, and that would have hampered most of these efforts because the Babylonians of the time believe that the primary things that made their teeth hurt were demons and tooth worms. According to the legend of the worm inscribed on a tablet from the period, the worm appears before Shamash, the god of the Sun, and in an exchange where the worm asks what the god will give him to eat, it entreats, quote, let me insert myself in the inner of the tooth, and give me his flesh for my dwelling. Out of the tooth, I will suck his blood, and from the gum I will chew the marrow, so I have entrance to the tooth. Toothworm infestations, according to this belief, could be treated with mashed herbs combined with gum mastic um. There is a an earlier episode of the podcast saw Bones that talks about some dentistry history, and one of I think Sydney, one of the hosts, makes the point that like when you see a cavity in somebody's tooth, it does kind of look like a little wormhole. Yeah, I mean I can see where people got there. Um. But the problem if you had a toothache, might have instead but a ghost or a deemon tracy, And if that was believed to be the case, the treatment was usually prayer or some sort of offering to appease the spirit that may have been wrong. That was why it was in your tooth, was to let you know that you had done something bad to it. Um. At this point, amulets were also used as a protective mechanism to shoo away demons that might cause tooth pain. Between three thousand and four thousand b c. Instructions for dental care were being recorded in the Vedas of ancient India. Medical texts from this group have detailed descriptions of oral anatomy and ways to care for and treat the teeth and the surrounding issues. And this includes possibly the earliest description of a toothbrush, in this case a twig that's frayed. At the end. Sha Shrewda, who we have an episode on in the Archives, included a list of sixty five diseases of the mouth and his writing, and recommended brushing your teeth early every morning with a cleaning paste made of honey and oil with other additives. The first person recognized as being a practitioner of dentistry was a man named heasy Ray. We'll also see his name as heasy Ros, sometimes all run together instead of hyphenated like those both were. He was an official in the court of Joseph in Egypt's third dynasty. We have an episode on Joseph in the archives, and heasy Ray was clearly a man who had a lot of responsibilities. There's a panel from his two Metsakara, which is carved in Acacia, would lists his various roles King's confident priest in three different cults, Supervisor of royal scribes, and Chief of Taxes, but the most important title in terms of his historical significance his chief of dentists and physicians. Now you will also see different interpretations of that reference to dentistry, since that term would not have existed yet. Various translations include great one of ivories or even cutter of ivories and others. But regardless of translation, this oral health care obviously would be nothing like dentistry Today, worms and demons still blamed for those tooth issues, but this is important because it establishes a historical record of dental medicine as a distinct field or a specialty separate from just more general medicine, and because of this, hes ARAE Is sometimes referred to as the first dentist. During Hazra's time, most treatments were aimed at alleviating pain and short term fixes, because periodontal disease was more common than cavities were. For example, there were various treatments that involved preparing poultices or packing materials around a patient's tooth to numb the pain that they might be experiencing and to stabilize the area. For some issues like abscesses, an oral rents might be administered, but these are sometimes substances that would have actually been poisonous, probably would have gotten rid of any bacteria, but also cost you harm, which happens in a few instances the history of dental care. In the centuries following Hesra's death circuit c there were new techniques that were being developed for treating tooth decay, although toothworms were still taking the blame. One treatment approach, which I sort of love, was to try to smoke out the toothworms using henbane that had been incorporated into beeswax. But it would be still several hundred more years before the Hammurabi Code, which has stated about seventy b C, would establish law us related to dental issues. This establishes the concept of medical malpractice and its punishment, and it also sets up laws regarding harming another person's teeth. If a freeman were to have his tooth knocked out, the person who caused the injury would have one of their teeth knocked out in retribution. Knocking out the tooth of an enslaved person incurred a fine of silver. So we are about to get to the Evers Papyrus. But before we delve into that, and a little aside about the man who started all of this, Ramsey's the second, we will pause for a sponsor break. The Evers Papyrus is one of the oldest of the medical papyri we know of, and it's considered incredibly important. Dated to the sixteenth century BC, this papyrus got its name from Egyptologist George Ebers, who purchased the papya riskit luxur in the eight seventies. This scroll, which is believed to be a copy of an earlier document, is filled with information about how Egyptians treated various diseases and conditions. There are eleven remedies that could fall under the heading of dentistry, sometimes called the first known text to describe dentistry practices. Among them, there's packing teeth in a way that we mentioned a moment ago using barley and honey. One entry intended to help regrow gum tissue, is translated as quote. Another to expel eating on the gums and make the flesh grow, cow's milk, fresh dates manna remains during the night in the do rents the mouth for nine days. There are also descriptions of how medical professionals at the time would install kind of a primitive bridge using a hammer and gold or silver wire to lash the teeth together to support one another and opie him from poppies as recommended as a pain reliever. So as an aside on Ramsey's two and a bit of myth busting related to what I talked to at the top of the episode. Uh, It's long been reported and there are certainly X rays you can look at of his skull to show pretty clearly that he had a lot of almost certainly very painful dental issues going on by the time he died. But this is not a case where there was no dental care in his time. That's often how these issues are framed. UH. He lived and ruled in the thirteenth century BC, so after the treatments and recognition of dental medicine that we have mentioned up to this point. But the bottom line is that that dental care was just not advanced enough to keep up with the developing problem of a man in his nineties whose teeth had been ground down and whose gums were plagued with issues. Some of those too, is just genetics, right. Two random people today can give their teeth the same exact level of care throughout their life and still have very different oral health for a variety of reasons. Preventative care in the form of a daily oral hygiene ritual was also already well established. This was not a case where this was a cultural ignorant about keeping their teeth clean. UH. That went back at least to the time of heasy Ra and possibly even earlier. In ancient China, there was also a developed concept of dentistry. Early pharmacopeias listing medicinally beneficial plants, including many that could have been used for dental health, are dated as far back as b C. There may have even been earlier versions. These early texts share some of the same ideas we've discussed relating to early Egyptian dental ideas, most notably those pesky toothworms. Tooth pain and degradation are also attributed to the idea of humors being unbalanced, as well as other causes to treat toothaches. According to early Chinese practitioners, you could chew on roasted garlic that had been combined with wor s, radish seeds, and other ingredients, and then if that failed, a small dose of arsenic could be administered to the tooth. There was also the use of acupuncture to treat toothache, and that was already well established in ancient texts. Hippocrates was born in four sixty b C. And his work and writing advanced dental medicine in a number of ways. For one, he wrote about the importance of separating medicine and medical practice from ideas of magic and religion. Up to his time, that idea of a spiritual component to health and illness had waxed and waned, but this idea of truly secular medicine was a pretty significant change. The writings of Hippocrates are also filled with information on densil care and oral health. He wrote what's possibly the first description of a dental operation was a tooth extraction using a tool called an odonte gogan, and that was an early version of dental forceps. But though epoc Tse was really into some big advancements, he also thought that men had more teeth than women did, so his hands on work on the matter might have been pretty lacking. Everybody actually gets twenty baby teeth and then twenty mature teeth plus four wisdom teeth. There can be some variations in that, but it is not based on sex. Although not everyone's wisdom teeth come in. That's part of that variation. That does not appear to have anything to do again with sex, though right, whether your wisdom teeth appear or not doesn't doesn't matter. Yet one of our cats had an extra tooth and that was just random, right, that happened. That does happen to people, but again doesn't This is this is not a sexual um. Following Hippocrates, Aristotle was the next notable historical figure in the Western world to write about oral health. His writing Departibus and Amalium describes the teeth of pigs in detail. Like Hippocrates, he still had that false belief in teeth counts being different based on sex. Y'all, look inside somebody's mouth, look inside a bunch of different mouths, you'll figure out you're wrong. But he did offer deeper understanding of how teeth fit into anatomy, including how the blood, vessels of the nerves, and roots of the teeth were connected to the larger circulatory system. Rome developed a lot more advanced dentistry in the centuries following the writings of Aristotle. This is where we first see crowns made of gold and replacement teeth that resembled natural teeth carved from materials like ivory and boxwood. This also marked a time when there were several different professions that could treat tooth and gum issues. Some doctors specialized in dentistry, but you could also go to a tooth drawer if you just needed one to be pulled out. Those things were advancing. There were also still some pretty misguided practices like urine was believed to be a good mouthwash yucker's first. There are many many great uses of urine in history, and that, in my opinion, is not one. Not so much. The first filling that we know of is attributed to the work of physician Alice Cornelius Celsus, who wrote extensively about teeth and dentist dream His fillings, which were made primarily of lead, were not intended to save the tooth like a filling that you would have today, but instead just to bolster it and give it a little more um steadiness so he could get a grip on it and pull it. He did advocate for patients, and that he truly believed that pain from maladies like tooth abscesses that was some of the worst pain a person could experience in his opinion, and pain relief he thought should be a goal for anyone practicing oral medicine. He also recognized that oral health was a good indicator of overall health. But right alongside that move forward where some of the more cockamami ideas. It was not until the first century CE that the idea of tooth worms appears in Roman texts. That's when physicians scrimonious largus includes it in a medical formulary. This description also includes a remedy which is burning henbane and inhaling the fumes. The ash left behind when you burn handbane seed buns looks a little bit like worms, and so that was offered as proof that the worms had been extracted. And the words of writer James win Brandt, who wrote The Excruciating History of Dentistry quote not coincidentally, henbane is a narcotic. Yes, people were easily convinced that their worms had been extracted because they were high plenties. Writing is also filled with incorrect information regarding the teeth in gums, Mostly it seems on from superstitions. He wrote the teeth contained a poisonous substance that could kill birds, that there was a worm you could rub on your teeth to treat toothache yuck, and that scratching painful gums with a tooth obtained from a person who had died violently would alleviate discomfort. Just throw all of that right out. Sounds like I set up for a murder mystery. As the first century came to a close, Syrian physician our kidens practicing in Rome, made the connection that toothaches were caused by damage or disease to the interior of the tooth, and that led him to perform treatments that could sort of be considered precursors to root canals. He opened diseased teeth with a saw to release the so called morbid humors. So we have spoken on this show before about Britain's and France's barber surgeons, most recently in our episode about m Boise parret So to recap by hundreds, barber surgeons in both countries were performing tooth extractions as well as other medical procedures. This was a result of many of those tasks having been forbidden to be done by monks by the Catholic Church. That had been common practice to go to a monk for such things before the eleven hundreds, and then there was tension between these practitioners, these barber surgeons and medical surgeons. This led to the two professions eventually being more clearly regulated and defined, and most of the procedures that barber surgeons were performing were then delineated as the work of medical surgeons. However, tooth extractions were one of the exceptions This is why you'll often see dentistry referred to as an evolution of the barber surgeon trade. The Little Medicinal Book for All Kinds of Diseases and Infirmities of the Teeth is sometimes referred to as the first dedicated book of dentistry. It was written by German physician Arts New Bookline and fifteen thirty. This book is meant as a manual for barber surgeons, and it's quite comprehensive. There are thirteen chapters covering everything from how the teeth grow to the various issues of decay, impaction, and periodontal disease. He also includes sections on children's teeth and finishes with a section on how to retain good teeth. A lot of this work is really an updated aggregation of the work of previous practitioners, so not brand new information, but it's the first time all of that knowledge was collected together in a sort of a textbook, and included were instructions for procedures like drilling the teeth and applying gold fillings. Yeah, still something incorrect info, but uh, the most comprehensive book about it. Collection of that information that had happened up to that point. And this book was incredibly popular. As a consequence, six editions of it were printed between fifteen thirty fifty three. In fifteen forty six it was reprinted again, but at that point it became a chapter in a larger work titled The Medicinal Book for All Kinds of Diseases of the Whole Body, internal and external, from head to toe. This book had twelve other chapters which had previously been separate booklets, all of which had been written by Arts. New bookline. Coming up, we'll talk about a problem that has plagued the dentistry trade and humans who need dental care for a long time. But it is not a disease that is other humans. We'll talk about that after we hear from the sponsors who keep stuffy miss the history class going Unfortunately. Although advancements were certainly being made in the medieval period and certainly into the Renaissance, this was also a time when completely untrained people started to claim to be experts in tooth drawing or tooth extraction. They would often travel from place to place, setting up shop just long enough to pull some teeth and make some quick money before moving on. Although there there may have been and probably were a few earnest practitioners in the mix. A lot of this so called profession was a ruse, while the tooth drawer was keeping a patient busy, sometimes with completely incorrect care, sometimes even pulling the wrong tooth, and a cop list was likely rifling through the patient's personal effects. This was a problem throughout the sixteenth and seventeen centuries and even into the eighteen. The rise in quackery caused both an enormous fear of dental medicine among lay people because there was no pain management, but it also led to intense distrust, even though true barber surgeons were theoretically much better prepared than these itinerant pullers. The only real records we have about these tooth drawers comes from artwork. There are a lot of European paintings from this era that show them. For example, there's jon Stein's one painting, The Tooth Puller. This features a boy having a tooth pulled and what looks like a market and there are spectators all around. There's a document on the table that's visible as the license, but it's shown as a fake with a comically large seal. This boy looks miserable, then the children and adults who are crowded around show a mix of kind of cheerful fascination to dismay. A slightly older painting titled the Tooth Extraction or sometimes the tooth Puller, is attributed to Caravaggio. Around this one shows a man at a table with the puller standing behind and over him, with a pair of pliers in his mouth, and what looks like blood is trickling from the patient's mouth. Five men around the table are just looking on intensely. Yeah. That um. That second page meaning is especially striking to me because the practitioner, the tooth drawer, tooth puller, is staring directly at the viewer and it's just a little bit creepy. Um. In seventy three, the book that is recognized as the start of the modern dentistry trade was published. That was The Schurgian Dantiste the Surgeon Dentist. French surgeon Pierre Fauchar wrote it, and it established a lot of the basics that still form the foundations of dentistryam He recognized that a person's dental health impacted their overall health, and his book includes a comprehensive system for caring for healthy teeth, repairing damaged teeth, extracting teeth that were determined to be beyond repair, and treating gum disease. Since the father of modern dentistry is French, it makes sense that the word dentist comes from the French word dn't easte. The word don't means tooth, so he's a toothist. Fascard was an outspoken person when it came to untrained and unlicensed people making their living as tooth pullers, and so he sought to warn people about those kinds of Charlatan's so they could seek out qualified healthcare providers instead. He had pondered for quite some time about why anybody would choose to have such a person see to their teeth, and he wrote that he had figured out their system quote all their cleverness consistent getting hold of some unfortunates who pushed themselves among the people listening to the promises of the empiric. These pretend paid sufferers come up from time to time to the operator, who holds in his hand a tooth already wrapped in a very fine skin with the blood of a chicken or some other animal, introduces his hand into the mouth of the pretended suffer drops into it the tooth hidden in his hand. Bush are then described how the tooth drawer would do some delicate move and the paid fake would spit out the tooth and the blood, making this whole procedure look very easy and quick and painless. Naturally, then people would line up for such a really easy procedure only to learn that what was going to happen was really painful and sometimes dangerous. So we're coming up to apart. That is fairly tame, depending on your level of comfort of such things. It certainly made me squirm. Uh Fauchar had become a dental specialist in Paris after learning the fundamentals of dentistry in the King's Navy, and he wrote extensively about his dental tools and how they were used. The five he specified for dental use for the gum lancet, the punch pincers, the lever, and the one that he described as the most useful, the pelican. The pelican, named because it's sort of resembles the pelican's beak, was invented centuries earlier by Guy de Choliek, and to me it looks utterly terrifying. It used a lever to remove a tooth. It had a hooked claw shaped leg that went over the tooth and another that would push against the gum, and so they would pull this lever and the tooth would kind of get pulled out sideways. Fauchar noted in his writings that if someone did not know how to use it, the Pelican quote is the most dangerous of all instruments for drawing teeth. The first dentist known in the European colonies in North America arrived in the seventeen sixties. His name was John Baker, and after getting an education in Britain and Ireland, he left to set up to practice in the colonies. Started out in Boston, but we don't know a whole lot about his time there. What we do know is that in seventeen sixty seven he decided to move to New York. And we know that because he placed a notice in the Boston Evening Post to let his patients know he was moving on, but they could continue to purchase his dentifics, which was an early tooth cleaner, at a local shop. He also trained an apprentice who will talk about him just a moment. Baker moved around quite a bit. It seems he can be traced largely through similar postings in papers in each city as he moved on. We also get a sense of how established many of the services we might receive from a dentist today we're already in place through his newspaper ads. For example, in one advertisement in seventeen seventy one, he touted that he could cure scurvy in the dums, starting with a scaling of the teeth, maintain teeth to keep them white and beautiful, administer fillings, transplant teeth from one person to another, make artificial teeth, and lastly, he quote displaces teeth and stumps after the best and easiest methods, be they ever so deep sunk into the socket of the gums. You've probably heard the myth that George Washington had a set of wooden dentures, and he did have false teeth, but they were not would Dr John Baker made them originally out of ivory. They were wired to Washington's healthy, ish remaining teeth. That was before the Revolutionary War, though Washington had other dentists make replacement teeth in later years. Some of his dentures were his own teeth that had been pulled. Some of them may have been bought from people he enslaved. Yes, um, But the first President of the United States is not the only notable figure in US history whose life brushed up against John Baker. Paul Revere also knew the dentist, but not because he was a patient. It was because Baker trained Paul Revere in dentistry. This happened when Baker was in Boston. The intent was that he would not leave his patients without dental care, and that Paul Revere would replace him in his practice. The first ad placed by Revere offering such services appeared in seventeen eighty six in the Boston news Letter, and after noting that lots of people lose teeth in a variety of ways, this notice reads, quote, this is to inform all such that they may have them replaced with artificial ones that look as well as the natural, by Paul Revere Goldsmith near the head of Dr Clark's Worth, Boston. That notice goes on to say that if you already got some false teeth from Mr John Baker, Paul Revere was trained by him, and he will refasten those as they naturally loosen over time. Revere practice dentistry until seventeen seventy four, and then he moved on to exclusively making appliances like bridges or dentures. General Joseph Warren died at the Battle of Bunker Hill, and when he was disinterred from the battlefield to give him a more permanent and appropriate burial, Revere identified the body by that bridge work that he had provided to Lauren. This was the first known instance of a post mortem identification through someone's dental information, and yet another connection to George Washington in dental history. It was one of his later dentists, John Greenwood, who invented the first known dental foot engine. This was a machine that had a treadle taken from his mother's spinning wheel, so that the dentist could power the rotation of his drill by rocking his foot to and fro on that treadle. Greenwood was Washington's favorite dentist. We know this because the President wrote him a letter saying so in Greenwood at that point had made three full sets of dentures for Washington and two partial sets had Washington not died at the end of that year, it seems a certainty that Greenwood probably would have continued to be his dentist. The first dental text published in the US was a Treatise on the Human teeth, concisely explaining their structure and cause of decay, to which has added the most beneficial and effectual method of treating all disorders incidental to the teeth and gums, with directions for their judicious extraction and proper mode of preservation, interspersed with observations interesting too and worthy the attention of every individual. That text was published in eighteen o one. Although the title was lengthy, the book was not. It was only sixty eight pages. Many of those pages were devoted to touting what an amazing dentist it's author, Roger Cortland's skinner was. It's also laid out some basic information on dental hygiene, and it's set the stage for similar works to publish, which was really the primary way that that kind of information was circulating at the time. So, now that we're getting a more casual public education dental healthcare, this is where we're gonna end Part one, but there is of course a lot more to discuss, and next time we were going to get into things like dental chairs. And there's a big old drama that happens with amalgam done dune, dune done. Um. Now that we have talked about how people did not eat refined sugar in ancient civilizations and thus had less to decay, let's talk about something sugary in our listener mate. Let's do it uh, and that is pie, which is with an exclamation point because that is how listener Kelly titled her email. Kelly writes, Hello, Holly and Tracy, I just finished your podcast about pie, and I found it to be absolutely delightful. We are huge pie fans in this house, but I wasn't always one myself before marrying my spouse. I rarely ate pie. Afterwards, it's pie at every gathering. My mother in law is a pie wizard and often makes cherry, strawberry and many fruit slash cream variations for every holiday and gathering. I'm inherently impatient, so without my food processor, creating a pie crust is absolutely impossible. I also was surprised to know that my pie preference is more aligned with the British version of apple pie. My favorite pie in this world is an apple crumb. Pie. I find the buttery pie crust, the soft, succulent apples, and crunchy top to be incredibly divine. It took many years of reading many cookbooks for me to figure out the best combination of the apple filling. As it turns out, I use cinnamon, cloves and nutmeg in my pie filling. I often have a habit of buying more green apples than I can physically eat, so I make this pie pretty often. Your episode inspired me to check to see how many apples I had collected, and sure enough I had enough to make a pie. Listening to this podcast while physically making a pie was a delight. I felt refreshed and I got a delicious pie to eat. At the end, Kelly also sent recipes so we can make her pie delicious. Um. I love this. I love the idea of making a pie. While listening to the history of pie, I'm suddenly wondering I had never asked you and meant to in the behind the scenes. Tracy, do you ever put cheddar cheese on your apple pie? I've never tried that. I don't think it's something my dad has always done, and I, when I was a kid, thought it was a little odd, but then I tried it and it's delicious, And I have since met other people that do the same. So I'm wondering if that's like a regional thing. Yeah, I don't know. I don't eat enough apple pie really to think about it. I don't either, but I recommend it. When let's all make a pie and try it, see, we can do a b testing. Um, maybe we will use Actually I would not use this pie recipe because as that beautiful crunchy top which doesn't work as well like a covered pie, and you don't want to ruin that. That stuff is delicious. Um, So if you are making a pie, that sounds great. If you want to send us more pie recipes, I'm always collecting and I love them, so please do so. You can do that at History podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also find us on social media as Missed in History. If you haven't yet subscribed to the podcast that as Easy as Pie, you can do that on the I heart radio app or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H